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Log for #openttd on 6th January 2011:
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00:40:35  <Wolf01> 'night
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03:07:28  <Lugnut> Hello everyone.
03:07:28  *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd
03:07:41  <Lugnut> I got a questions for ya'll
03:08:06  <Lugnut> Is it vital for the openttd program to have the sfx and the mfx files installed to run?
03:09:18  <Lugnut> Theres like a hundred people here
03:09:31  <Lugnut> and you want me to believe you're all afk? lol
03:10:11  <supermop> hi
03:10:23  <Lugnut> Hi.
03:10:35  <supermop> i think you need the sound files
03:10:49  <supermop> you can do without the music
03:10:57  <Lugnut> as in crash without?
03:11:05  <Lugnut> or need as in their really cool
03:11:23  <roboboy> refuse to start
03:11:31  <supermop> i think the game doesnt run without sound
03:11:45  <Lugnut> Dang
03:11:51  <Lugnut> 10 mb file here I come.
03:11:53  <Lugnut> Thanks.
03:11:55  <supermop> so you need either the sfx or a sfx set that contains no sounds
03:11:59  <Lugnut> I'll try to run it without
03:12:04  <Lugnut> and see what happens
03:12:05  <Lugnut> and report.
03:12:07  <roboboy> unless you get No sounds
03:12:17  <supermop> yeah
03:12:20  <supermop> thats the one
03:13:39  <Lugnut> Its running without them.
03:13:47  <Lugnut> Just, obviously, theres no sound.
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07:18:08  <z-MaTRiX> hey-ho
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08:26:52  <andythenorth> hola
09:10:11  <andythenorth> Terkhen: morning
09:17:55  <dihedral> how often das george want to report this: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4383
09:19:19  <peter1138> hrzm
09:19:27  <peter1138> das?
09:19:54  <andythenorth> is that a washing powder?
09:20:22  <peter1138> so... 3d pathfinding, but following a surface
09:20:32  <peter1138> i suspect this isn't going to work
09:20:43  <peter1138> problems like with ships springs to mind :p
09:21:17  <dihedral> any pathfinder + ships :-P
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09:21:59  <dihedral> pathfinding for ships could be cached and only updated when any tile changes from water to land or vice versa
09:22:18  <andythenorth> peter1138 you trying to get to a specific destination, or just create a random path?
09:22:31  <peter1138> specific destination
09:23:14  <andythenorth> straight line? :P
09:23:21  <peter1138> yes
09:23:27  <peter1138> unless there are obstacles
09:23:43  <andythenorth> you need cruise missile code
09:23:48  <peter1138> hehe
09:23:50  <dihedral> automatic buoy placement
09:24:12  <peter1138> obstacles such as cliffs
09:24:19  <peter1138> which can be passed only in one direction
09:24:33  <dihedral> talking about cliffs :-P
09:24:43  <peter1138> talking about minecraft, hah
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09:25:20  <dihedral> put that into OpenTTD :-P
09:25:31  <peter1138> minecraft into openttd? that wouldn't work :S
09:25:46  <andythenorth> put ottd into minecraft?
09:25:50  <peter1138> :S
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09:29:15  <andythenorth> hmm
09:30:36  <peter1138> so yeah
09:30:51  <kamnet> Good morning
09:31:45  <andythenorth> peter1138: is it guaranteed that there is a route between start and destination?
09:32:28  <peter1138> nope
09:32:34  <peter1138> but most likely
09:33:12  <andythenorth> sounds thorny
09:33:22  <andythenorth> sounds like a lot of iterations
09:33:38  <peter1138> also: obstacles can drastically change
09:33:44  <peter1138> and the destination can move
09:34:04  <peter1138> i might just start with a simple follower, point & shoot :P
09:34:57  <andythenorth> sounds like a thing I read once - about surveying Canadian Pacific rail line through the Rockies
09:35:53  <andythenorth> I was in Banff - there is a mountain there that they were going to put a 1 mile tunnel through....
09:36:03  <andythenorth> because the surveyors didn't have time to explore the 2 mile long flat valley that went around the mountain
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09:37:04  <andythenorth> hmm
09:37:19  <andythenorth> I have distorted the numbers somewhat in my memory, but here's the story
09:37:22  <andythenorth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_Mountain
09:37:40  <andythenorth> the moral of this is that from the air, it's quite easy to see the better route
09:37:55  <andythenorth> peter1138: can you get up in the air, and look for the route from there?
09:39:03  *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
09:39:14  <andythenorth> draw straight line between start and end, count the number of impassable obstacles
09:39:42  <andythenorth> if obstacles > 0....hmm
09:39:47  <andythenorth> do something
09:40:44  <peter1138> andythenorth, by "look from the air" do you mean look at the map array? :p
09:40:50  <andythenorth> effectively yes
09:40:57  <andythenorth> also, for some reason my brain is picturing drawing arcs in school
09:41:06  <andythenorth> taking two loci, and drawing chords between them
09:42:19  <andythenorth> it's probably not a geometry problem though
09:47:09  <peter1138> :s
09:48:21  <andythenorth> hmm
09:48:41  <andythenorth> A = start, B = finish
09:48:47  <andythenorth> distance AB = radius
09:48:56  <andythenorth> draw a circle at A with radius AB
09:49:47  <andythenorth> in 1 deg increments, clockwise, mark all straight lines from A to circumference where obstacles == 0
09:49:56  <andythenorth> then do same from B
09:50:34  <andythenorth> any pair of lines where obstacles == 0 on both is a valid route
09:50:43  <andythenorth> my radius is too smal :P
09:50:58  <andythenorth> @calc 360 * 360
09:50:58  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 129600
09:51:14  <andythenorth> but for larger radius, the angle steps would need to be greater
09:51:59  <andythenorth> radius = 2AB is probably enough
09:52:49  <andythenorth> hmm
09:53:12  <andythenorth> no that would lead to wrong results
09:54:04  <andythenorth> radius = AB, but limit the sweep to the points where the two circumferences intersect
09:54:10  <andythenorth> this is not a geometry problem :P
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10:00:13  <andythenorth> peter1138: for 2 roadtypes on a tile, how will drawing order be determined?
10:00:39  <andythenorth> if a roadtype is compatible with TRAM, that will be drawn above anything compatible with ROAD?
10:00:50  <peter1138> andythenorth, that's one of the sticking points i got to :p
10:01:33  <andythenorth> it's tempting to say only one roadtype newgrf per game...but that's skipping ahead a bit
10:01:36  <andythenorth> and it's not viable
10:02:00  <andythenorth> if there's type A and type B only compatible with ROAD, does the order matter?
10:02:25  <andythenorth> it's important that tram tracks, or things abusing tram tracks are drawn as overlay
10:03:38  <andythenorth> overlay aside, could drawing order be determined by translation table position?
10:03:48  <andythenorth> but that's a problem for multiple newgrfs :P
10:03:56  <andythenorth> ach
10:04:13  <andythenorth> all kinds of things are a problem for multiple newgrfs
10:04:21  <andythenorth> cargos...
10:05:46  <andythenorth> hmm
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10:08:16  <andythenorth> is there a way to rely on the order of the compatible types list?
10:08:23  <andythenorth> probably not
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10:09:59  <andythenorth> hmm
10:10:11  <andythenorth> it's an auction, and winning bidder gets to be drawn on top
10:10:28  <andythenorth> each type makes a bid, (a byte will be enough)
10:10:39  <Zuu> Even if you have a 64 bit integer from which NewGRFs select a display order number, there can be two NewGRFs with the same order number and there need to be some other way of resolving the draw order.
10:11:33  <Zuu> You could have say 8 different levels and say that if two road types end up on the same level then it is unspecified which draw order that should be used.
10:11:38  <andythenorth> that needs to be deterministic
10:11:55  <andythenorth> based on grf order, or some such where the value cannot be the same, but is deterministic
10:12:02  <Zuu> grfid A < grifid B => draw A first?
10:12:13  <andythenorth> effectively yes
10:12:26  <andythenorth> also, it's not enough for tram tracks to always be on top level
10:12:36  <andythenorth> it's possible for a tile to have two tram-like roadtypes
10:12:53  <andythenorth> but they would always have to beat road-like roadtypes
10:13:00  <andythenorth> so there's a bit more complexity there
10:14:02  <andythenorth> but could just add an offset for tram-like roadtypes
10:14:15  <andythenorth> roadtypes are a pain in the ass :P
10:14:27  <peter1138> yup
10:14:34  <peter1138> now you know why it's not done yet :p
10:15:03  <andythenorth> it would do no harm to put quite strict restrictions on it
10:15:15  <andythenorth> industries are the better for only having 32 cargos and other restrictions
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10:15:33  <andythenorth> 3 input, 2 output....it all makes for more careful set design
10:16:04  <andythenorth> but then I don't play crazy mp games where 25 different road grfs would be in use
10:16:16  <kamnet> I would thought :-)
10:16:21  <kamnet> *though
10:16:53  <kamnet> Well I don't play MP but I'm just not happy if I don't have multiple options available
10:17:05  <Zuu> On the other hand, with industries it doesn't really make sense to mix industry sets? But for roadtypes it looks to me that it makes more sense that one tram-like roadtype was made by someone A and another tram-like roadtype by someone B.
10:17:18  <peter1138> MP doesn't come into it :)
10:17:53  <Zuu> Actually, MP games tend to use less NewGRFs than SP games.
10:18:04  <kamnet> This is true.
10:19:25  <andythenorth> yeah, I think industry sets don't mix, but roadtypes will have to
10:22:00  <kamnet> Hey andy since you're here and I'm thinking about it, do you think my industrial roads should come with a snow option?
10:22:32  <andythenorth> you'll find problems with that :P
10:22:55  <kamnet> such as?
10:24:20  <andythenorth> something to do with town / non town roads and detecting snow (not enough bits free or something)
10:24:27  <andythenorth> it's not a blocker, just a limitation
10:24:34  <andythenorth> it's in the US roads thread somewhere
10:25:08  <andythenorth> peter1138: are there any other things newgrfs have to cooperate on, besides cargos?
10:25:48  <kamnet> Alright I'll just forget about it for now then. :-)
10:26:24  <andythenorth> kamnet: snowy roads are possible though
10:27:53  <andythenorth> can we patch for roadtypes, but only some defined in openttd.grf
10:27:59  <andythenorth> then we can just make some nice ones :P
10:28:13  <andythenorth> and multiple newgrf behaviour is a non-issue
10:45:52  <andythenorth> hmm
10:46:39  <andythenorth> peter1138: would you consider a drawing order based on a small number of classes?
10:46:40  <andythenorth>  (maybe a fixed spec in OTTD, deliberately not extensible)
10:46:54  <andythenorth> UNPAVED; PAVED; RAIL_OR_GUIDEWAY; CATENARY
10:47:13  <andythenorth> actually CATENARY is probably redundant
10:47:26  <andythenorth> logically, PAVED has to be drawn over UNPAVED
10:47:39  <andythenorth> RAIL_OR_GUIDEWAY has to be drawn over PAVED / UNPAVED
10:48:27  <andythenorth> if a newgrf author implements both PAVED and UNPAVED, they're stupid
10:48:35  <andythenorth> same as defining PAX and LIQUID for cargos
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10:52:53  <andythenorth> hmm
10:53:23  <andythenorth> if I build roadtype A (60mph) and roadtype B (90mph) on the same tile, what's the speed limit on that tile?
10:54:28  <SmatZ> one is tram, second is road?
10:54:47  <andythenorth> nope, both might be road
10:54:58  <SmatZ> two roads at one tile?
10:55:04  <SmatZ> is that realistic?
10:55:12  <SmatZ> mind realism is very important for openttd
10:56:03  * andythenorth sees glimmer of hope
10:56:29  <Eddi|zuHause> the question is not really about whether it's realistic. the question is whether you can algorithmically prevent it without disallowing things like trolleybus crossing road
10:57:52  <andythenorth> there *must* be a way to use the compatibility labels and some kind of overbuilding
10:58:11  <andythenorth> and end up with just *one* road roadtype per tile, and one tram-like roadtype per tile
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10:59:17  <andythenorth> it's a similar problem to cargo classes
10:59:31  <andythenorth> I have one cargo slot per vehicle.  Can I put my cargo in it
10:59:43  <andythenorth> classes are the (argued about but works) solution to that problem
11:00:01  <andythenorth> I have one road slot per tile.  Is my vehicle allowed on the tile?
11:01:31  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's a possibility, but it solves only half the problems
11:02:19  <andythenorth> which half is unsolved?  graphics?
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11:03:30  <raidgh0st> Anyone here that have a install-version with patched big maps to offer?
11:05:26  <raidgh0st> Tried to follow the patching guide. But all i got was error after error. So i felt my mood going from happy to angry. tried 4 times. Feeling that i should lay it down. and move on. The game rocks!
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11:24:36  <andythenorth> peter1138: what would be special about HWAY?
11:24:44  <andythenorth> wrt vehicles?
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11:27:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd imagine mostly curve speed
11:29:24  * andythenorth thinks nearly all road types would end up defining "ROAD" as one of their compatible types
11:29:35  <andythenorth> and any newgrf author who doesn't define their RVs as "ROAD" is bonkers
11:29:49  <andythenorth> which begs the question of how many labels etc are needed
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11:48:29  <kamnet> raidgh0st, check out ChillCore's patchbpack.
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11:52:01  * andythenorth now thinks most roadtype problems can be solved
11:52:18  <andythenorth> basically, here's the solution to some of them
11:52:43  <andythenorth> "if newgrf author has done something stupid with roadtypes that is bad for gameplay, get a better roadtypes newgrf"
11:53:27  <andythenorth> do one road-like roadtype per tile, one tram-like roadtype, and we have a bunfight about catenary
11:53:27  <kamnet> DING!
11:55:16  <andythenorth> and (if they don't already) force vehicles to turn around if they try and take a junction exit where the next tile has no valid roadtype for them
11:56:45  <andythenorth> hmm
11:56:56  <andythenorth> that's not going to work
11:58:34  <andythenorth> http://tt-foundry.com/misc/tram_stuck.png
11:58:51  * andythenorth is baffled again
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12:03:27  * andythenorth wonders if roadtypes is impossible :o
12:12:10  * peter1138 wonders if 3d pathfinding is impossible
12:13:21  <peter1138> navmesh... but...
12:15:03  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: trams have different turn-around behaviour
12:16:17  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and if you reduce it to one road-like type per tile, you have to introduce catenary-guessing-code like for rails, or trolleybus-over-road will look bad
12:16:30  <peter1138> not sure if A* is appropriate as the grid is lower resolution than positions
12:17:16  <peter1138> manhatten cost across the grid then becomes inaccurate
12:17:45  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: what are you up to?
12:18:12  <peter1138> well, i want to get from point A to point B ;)
12:18:40  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: in a non-planar graph embedded into a 3d grid?
12:18:53  <peter1138> erm
12:18:56  <peter1138> if you say so
12:19:41  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: or a "mostly-planar" embedded graph? [like roads with bridges?]
12:19:41  <__ln___> http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/gallery/2011/jan/02/photography-detroit
12:19:53  <peter1138> non-planar then, i suppose
12:20:27  <frosch123> rivers would be planar :)
12:20:28  <Eddi|zuHause> for non-planar "random" graphs, pathfinding should get easier
12:20:45  <peter1138> i'm not sure where to start
12:20:49  <Eddi|zuHause> because the average paths get shorter
12:22:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see what speaks against A* though
12:22:42  <Eddi|zuHause> or a simple dijkstra algorithm
12:24:13  * peter1138 starts with a* pathfinding for beginners :p
12:24:14  <Yexo> perhaps the fact that for A* you need a reasonable heuristic function, which might be difficult / impossible in non-planer "random" graphs?
12:25:28  <peter1138> i can see how it might work if i wanted to follow the grid
12:25:38  <Yexo> hmm, if the world is a simple 3d grid you shouldn't have any problems implementing A*
12:26:20  <Yexo> peter1138: so there are a lot of routes, but you cannot travel along the edges of the grid?
12:26:38  <peter1138> i can travel along the edges, but that's not the most direct route
12:26:56  <Yexo> ah, it doesn't matter if that's not the most direct route, the fact that it's possible makes it a lot easier
12:27:19  <Yexo> as you can easily compute the distance from one point in your world to another point if you'd travel only over the dges
12:27:31  <Yexo> that can be taken as a minimum travel distance = heuristic for A*
12:33:42  <peter1138> when did we switch to c++?
12:34:02  <peter1138> ah, 0.5.0 will do
12:34:53  <peter1138> bits of c++ in it, hehe
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12:41:04  <blathijs> Yexo: Huh? Travelling over grid lines is longer than taking a direct (diagonal) route, so that's worthless as a heuristic, right?
12:41:32  <Yexo> argh, of course you're right :(
12:41:36  <Yexo> what was I thinking
12:42:02  <blathijs> Though I do remember that the OpenTTD pathfinders use something similar to that for their heuristic
12:42:28  <peter1138> yes, but openttd vehicles only have specific places to enter/exit tiles
12:42:41  <peter1138> so it makes sense
12:43:00  <peter1138> except ships :D
12:43:06  <peter1138> though i think they do anyway
12:43:25  <peter1138> i mean, i could do a* on the sub-grid
12:43:28  <peter1138> but, uh...
12:43:31  <blathijs> Yeah, ships just go over fully connected tracks :-)
12:44:00  <peter1138> that'd give a grid of 4096x4096x4096 on an average level
12:45:13  <peter1138> or i could just follow the grid as a starting point, heh
12:47:28  <Yexo> peter1138: how many off-grid routes are there? compared to the size of the grid?
12:48:11  <peter1138> Yexo, each "block" in the grid is free traversable (assuming it's not an obstruction)
12:48:42  <peter1138> you can leave one face in 32x32 different positions
12:48:54  <peter1138> (though really 'only' 32 matter)
12:49:05  <peter1138> (unless it was something flying)
12:58:19  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: 'nother problem
12:58:36  <andythenorth> players shouldn't mix electrified / non-electrified tram tracks on the same system
12:59:04  <andythenorth> they'll end up with a deadlocked network
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13:10:30  <Wolf01> hello
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13:26:18  <kamnet> Good morning
13:32:49  <andythenorth> do electric trains eventually reverse if they are blocked by no power on next tile?
13:33:36  <roboboy> unless they have a diesal/steamer attatched or I think thats the case
13:34:19  <andythenorth> hmm
13:34:32  <andythenorth> trams have some issues, even without roadtypes
13:35:13  <andythenorth> given four routes out of a junction, they'll happily take the one route that has no way to reverse
13:35:33  <andythenorth> or even that has no tram on next tile
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13:35:57  <andythenorth> I guess pathfinding has some constraints
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13:45:32  <andythenorth> two roadtypes per tile, no distinction between road tram
13:45:40  <andythenorth> drawing order based on a bunfight
13:45:48  <andythenorth> each type provides both base and overlay
13:45:59  <andythenorth> each type can provide both ROAD and TRAM or whatever
13:46:21  <andythenorth> a trolleybus crossing tram is made up of:
13:46:36  <andythenorth> TROLLEYROAD + TRAMROAD
13:46:47  <andythenorth> all directions provide road
13:46:57  <andythenorth> one direction provides TRAM
13:47:01  <andythenorth> one direction provides trolley
13:47:20  <andythenorth> but in fact all four directions could provide tram, road and trolley
13:47:48  * andythenorth may have just understood what peter1138 had planned all along
13:48:11  <andythenorth> ^ few terms a bit odd there, but I could code the drawing for that
13:57:50  <andythenorth> hmm
13:58:32  <andythenorth> on a tile the need to keep bits in a predictable location means there has to be roadtype 1 and roadtype 2
13:58:46  <andythenorth> could the drawing order always be roadtype 1 then roadtype 2?
13:59:04  <andythenorth> and if roadtype 1 is moved, shuffle its bits down to the location for roadtype 1
13:59:18  <andythenorth> ach shuffle type 2's bits to roadtype 1's location I mean
13:59:25  <andythenorth> when roadtype 1 is deleted
13:59:45  * andythenorth has been taking outside christmas lights down, and has cold fingers that type wrong :P
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14:01:10  <andythenorth> if the player doesn't like drawing order, they should rebuild
14:01:11  <andythenorth> hmm
14:01:27  <andythenorth> that might cause some weirdness when removing / re-adding a roadtype from a tile
14:01:40  <andythenorth> might also be frustrating for long stretches of road
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14:06:39  <Belugas> hello
14:06:58  <andythenorth> hi Belugas
14:09:16  <Belugas> hi sir andythenorth
14:10:28  <andythenorth> Belugas I was in the toy shop and my baby indicated that he wanted this: http://shop.lego.com/ByTheme/Product.aspx?p=7684&cn=553&d=9
14:10:38  <andythenorth> it was a fun set - if you like pigs and tractors :)
14:12:25  <Belugas> :D
14:12:48  <Belugas> and dad has a few more pieces for his regular work ;)
14:14:02  <andythenorth> ach
14:14:14  <Belugas> by the way, doing holidays, i had an away-from-computer couple of days, and i started to work on a little lego project: make the front wheels of a vehicle going left to right in synch
14:14:26  <andythenorth> steering?
14:14:29  <Belugas> yeah!
14:14:33  <Belugas> thanks
14:14:42  <andythenorth> city-scale?
14:14:55  <Belugas> nope, would be too hard for a start
14:15:21  <andythenorth> can nearly be done, but it's a pretty epic combination of technic pieces
14:15:25  <Belugas> i managed, althoug i am not please
14:15:42  <Belugas> yeah, and i lack technic sets
14:15:50  <andythenorth> he
14:16:02  <andythenorth> you can do it with turntable pieces, that's how technic used to do it
14:16:10  <andythenorth> 2x2 turntables + plates
14:16:39  <andythenorth> there are probably 99 ways to do it now, there are so many different parts :o
14:16:53  * andythenorth returns to smashing brain on roadtypes
14:16:57  <Belugas> quite :)
14:18:17  <Belugas> i think i'll make some photos of how I did it
14:20:01  <roboboy> gnight
14:21:38  <Belugas> night roboboy
14:22:10  <andythenorth> Belugas: put them online somewhere :)
14:22:24  <Belugas> i'll try :)
14:22:36  * andythenorth wonders how roadtypes would handle different surfaces, snow, town roads, lined / unlined roads etc
14:22:40  <andythenorth> current spec says no varaction 2
14:22:55  <andythenorth> perhaps there are action 2 ids for different graphics, handled by the action 3?
14:23:07  <andythenorth> like railtypes
14:26:06  <planetmaker> hi
14:26:24  <andythenorth> hi planetmaker
14:26:24  <planetmaker> andythenorth: you got two sets of graphics for a road type: in-town and outside
14:26:36  <planetmaker> those would be distinguished by action3
14:26:39  <andythenorth> yup
14:26:44  <andythenorth> same style as railtypes
14:27:25  <andythenorth> there would need to be some checking of all 8 road bits on a tile to decide whether to draw with pavements or not :o
14:27:34  <andythenorth> I can kind of see how most of this works now
14:28:00  <andythenorth> still not sure about the drawing order, but I have at least an idea that could be tested
14:28:29  <planetmaker> those with a tram flag are drawn on top
14:28:44  <planetmaker> for two equal road types, only the first is drawn
14:29:23  <planetmaker> with an appropriate crossing sprite. or alike
14:29:24  <andythenorth> I think the tram flag is misleading
14:29:35  <andythenorth> I've hit the point where irc makes the problem harder not better though :P
14:29:50  <andythenorth> http://pastebin.com/46B7LAX8
14:30:55  <planetmaker> I'd reverse type1 and type2 drawing order
14:31:00  <planetmaker> the first one should stay
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14:37:17  <planetmaker> it'd be nicer when connecting a dirt road to a national road
14:38:46  <Belugas> mmmh... reminds me of a request to be able to set rough land in scenario editor...
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14:50:51  <frosch123> isn't that rerandomised everytime a tree is planted?
14:55:44  <Belugas> is it?
14:59:05  <Belugas> i'll check that
15:00:01  <frosch123> hmm, maybe not
15:01:58  <Eddi|zuHause> the scenario editor lacks many options to specifically choose the shape of a tile
15:02:09  <Eddi|zuHause> like a certain building in a town
15:02:17  <frosch123> seems like rough land is only destructed in game. either by players, or by fields
15:02:30  <frosch123> so after a long game there should be no rough land at all...
15:05:49  <SmatZ> quite likely
15:08:57  <Wolf01> rough land should be generated in game, maybe after trees decay (when all trees on a tile disappear naturally)
15:10:00  <Belugas> [10:02] <Eddi|zuHause> like a certain building in a town  <-- yeah, would be awesome
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15:16:30  <Belugas> crappy SD card... still svn up...
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15:28:19  <Wolf01> Belugas, do it in the HDD then copy the folder in the SD
15:29:20  *** fmauneko [~fmauneko@88.166.241.226] has joined #openttd
15:30:47  <Belugas> no trace on work's drives ;)
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15:46:18  <peter1138> hm
15:46:40  <Wolf01> eh, think about the traces on the work's proxy ;)
15:58:44  <Belugas> i heard they do not care about the proxy, as it is used so heavily for any reasons that the logs are way too voluminous
15:59:11  <Belugas> but HDs can be scanned, and are likely
16:01:32  *** OTTDmaster [561b9bc6@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
16:01:58  <OTTDmaster> hello
16:04:09  *** ashb [~ash@callisto.firemirror.com] has quit [Quit: leaving]
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16:16:26  <OTTDmaster> damn, this really is dead, a quarter hour and still no reply
16:17:58  *** LordAro [56a754a1@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
16:18:12  <LordAro> afternoonings
16:18:30  <OTTDmaster> to a dead IRC room...
16:19:01  <OTTDmaster> FYI I'm adding extra names to AroAI
16:19:21  <LordAro> it be "3 kings day" in europe, so their probably partying
16:19:27  <OTTDmaster> not meant in a mean way
16:19:47  <OTTDmaster> Twelfth Night, you mean?
16:20:10  <LordAro> probably something like that...
16:20:14  <OTTDmaster> have you got the Xmas Decorations down
16:20:29  <LordAro> no, actually :)
16:20:55  <OTTDmaster> You have to get them down tonight, It's supposed to be bad luck if you don't
16:21:35  * LordAro isn't really very superstitious...
16:21:46  * OTTDmaster isn't either
16:21:59  * OTTDmaster goes digging
16:22:24  *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.160.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:29:27  <OTTDmaster> does anyone know the maximum amount of characters you can have in a company name?
16:39:35  <Belugas> 32, i believe
16:39:48  <OTTDmaster> thanks
16:39:52  <Belugas> including terminator
16:40:03  <Belugas> and 150 pixels
17:08:21  *** dfox [~dfox@ip-84-42-201-180.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:28:24  * peter1138 re-ponders his pathfinding
17:28:40  <SmatZ> yet another peter's pathfinder?
17:28:53  <peter1138> another? it would be my first :D
17:29:02  <SmatZ> oh :)
17:29:03  * peter1138 had to stop thinking about it due to work, heh
17:29:05  <SmatZ> :-)
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17:57:23  <OTTDmaster> someone give me a really hard sum
17:57:34  <OTTDmaster> I'm testing bc
18:00:02  <frosch123> a "really hard sum"? does "1 + exp(i*pi)" count as sum?
18:02:05  <Rubidium> OTTDmaster: sum[n=1..∞] 1/(n*n)
18:02:34  <Rubidium> (I expect the precise answer)
18:02:58  <OTTDmaster> please expand on 1..∞
18:03:07  <OTTDmaster> BC uses precise numbers
18:03:13  <OTTDmaster> they had to limit it...
18:03:56  <Rubidium> tss... lame
18:04:09  <Rubidium> I bet Maple would do it correctly
18:07:19  <OTTDmaster> frosch123, bc gives (on the basis that i=i+1)
18:07:21  <OTTDmaster> 32.00627657
18:07:56  *** [com]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd
18:07:57  <Rubidium> i=sqrt(-1)
18:08:03  <frosch123> what does "i = i + 1" mean?
18:08:32  <frosch123> @calc 1 + exp(i*pi)
18:08:32  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 0
18:08:32  <OTTDmaster> continuously upwards
18:08:40  <frosch123> see, even dorpsgek can do that
18:09:15  <OTTDmaster> damn the guys who made BC
18:09:32  <OTTDmaster> it doesn't do square roots of negative numbers
18:09:49  <OTTDmaster> this is a peice of technology from 2000
18:11:29  <frosch123> @calc zeta(2)
18:11:29  <DorpsGek> frosch123: Error: 'zeta' is not a defined function.
18:11:38  <frosch123> lucky for you :)
18:13:02  <OTTDmaster> the Riemann zeta function (which I assume you mean when you say 'zeta') is a tad too complex to put in bc
18:13:49  <OTTDmaster> @calc 66666^66666
18:13:49  <DorpsGek> OTTDmaster: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
18:13:56  <OTTDmaster> bc did that
18:14:05  <frosch123> @calc 66666**66666
18:14:05  <DorpsGek> frosch123: Error: The answer exceeded 1.79769313486e+308 or so.
18:14:47  <frosch123> what weird piece of software is "bc"? just a random long-number implementation?
18:14:56  *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:16:21  <OTTDmaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bc_programming_language
18:16:32  * OTTDmaster waits for pastebin
18:17:40  <OTTDmaster> http://pastebin.com/z0iPuJ4v
18:18:15  <OTTDmaster> bc was the UNIX calculator
18:18:37  <OTTDmaster> lol
18:19:01  <OTTDmaster> 4730 lines of arbitary preciscion
18:21:38  <andythenorth> planetmaker: (I was working) - why would drawing roadtype 2 first be better?
18:30:47  * OTTDmaster would says omething, but knows he'll get kicked for it
18:30:58  <OTTDmaster> *would *say
18:37:34  *** OTTDmaster was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [just in the case :p]
18:40:42  <Rubidium> does he dare kicking me as well?
18:41:51  <SmatZ> why?
18:43:33  *** OTTDmaster [561b9bc6@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
18:44:37  <Rubidium> SmatZ: so I can keep the channel open but won't be actually connected to the channel. The major benefit of that is a lot less backlog to possibly read ;)
18:44:54  <Rubidium> without really noticing a channel is "missing"
18:45:08  <SmatZ> :)
18:45:41  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r21736 /trunk/src/lang/ (hungarian.txt polish.txt russian.txt swedish.txt):
18:45:41  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:41  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: hungarian - 2 changes by IPG
18:45:41  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: polish - 2 changes by silver_777
18:45:41  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: russian - 9 changes by Lone_Wolf
18:45:43  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: swedish - 1 changes by Ledel
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18:52:14  <supermop> hello
18:52:51  *** OTTDmaster [561b9bc6@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
18:53:23  <OTTDmaster> hello supermop
18:55:22  <supermop> hello to yu as well
18:55:27  <supermop> you
18:55:42  <OTTDmaster> Twelfth Night tonight
18:55:47  <OTTDmaster> (I think)
18:55:52  <supermop> I actually have a friend named yu...
18:56:51  * OTTDmaster wonders why supermop was talking about someone else while greeting me...
18:59:08  * OTTDmaster gives up on that thought
18:59:35  <dihedral> heh - someone on the forums making use of the admin network :-)
19:00:01  <SmatZ> OTTDmaster: what was the thing you wanted to say? you were kicked already, so you don't have to be afraid anymore :)
19:01:36  <dihedral> hehe
19:01:37  <V453000> hello, how do the automatic orders work?
19:01:49  <SmatZ> V453000: hello V453000 :)
19:01:57  <V453000> hi
19:01:58  <SmatZ> they are just entered in the orders list
19:02:07  <SmatZ> and they have only informative value
19:02:13  <dihedral> hello V453000
19:02:13  <dihedral> SmatZ, :-)
19:02:21  <SmatZ> hello dihedral :)
19:02:23  <V453000> my trains seem to screw up with them
19:02:54  <OTTDmaster> SmatZ:Rubidium: Bet Maple couldn't do *that*?
19:03:08  <SmatZ> V453000: do you think they are using the automatic order?
19:03:12  <V453000> I think so
19:03:14  <V453000> come check on PS
19:04:04  <SmatZ> OTTDmaster: I think it could, but... why were you afraid to be kicked for that :)
19:05:26  <OTTDmaster> Because it sounds like I'm rubbing the fact in his face, and that may offend him.
19:05:34  <OTTDmaster> 4730 lines....
19:07:07  <frosch123> why do you think that would be a problem for maple?
19:08:13  <OTTDmaster> go on, tell me the script to do 66666 to the 66666th power?
19:08:51  <frosch123> script? you know about maple?
19:09:02  <SmatZ> @calc log(10)
19:09:02  <DorpsGek> SmatZ: 2.30258509299
19:09:16  <OTTDmaster> wikipedia
19:09:21  <SmatZ> @calc log(66666) * 66666 / log(10)
19:09:22  <DorpsGek> SmatZ: 321590.410596
19:09:24  <OTTDmaster> thttp://mibpaste.com/yoRCXN ells you a lot my friend
19:09:33  <OTTDmaster> rrrrr
19:09:34  <SmatZ> long number
19:10:04  <OTTDmaster> very long number in bc's case
19:10:21  <OTTDmaster> http://mibpaste.com/yoRCXN
19:10:28  <OTTDmaster> shows the script for bc
19:10:30  <frosch123> do you think multi precision calculation is anything special?
19:10:48  <OTTDmaster> two reasons
19:10:49  <frosch123> @calc log(66666) * 66666 / log(2) / 8
19:10:50  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 133537.5275
19:11:17  <OTTDmaster> first, your computer calculator, and mine couldn't do that
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19:12:47  <OTTDmaster> secondly this is a peice of software written in 1991
19:13:01  <OTTDmaster> copyrighted in 1991 anyway
19:13:11  <SmatZ> OTTDmaster: isn't that just because you don't wait long enough?
19:13:29  <frosch123> OTTDmaster: you would impress me, if you would use it on a 16bit dos machine
19:13:44  <OTTDmaster> I couldn't use it on DOS
19:13:58  <OTTDmaster> because it's a UNIX piece of software
19:13:58  <frosch123> but if you consider long arithmetic in 1991 anything special, you are very wrong
19:14:18  <OTTDmaster> I'm gonna get kicked for this aren't I
19:14:24  * OTTDmaster hides
19:15:51  <SmatZ> we were using Derive 3 at school
19:15:56  <SmatZ> Derive Version 3 is a symbolic algebra program with 2-D and 3-D graphing capabilities that runs on any PC compatible machine with just 512K of memory.
19:15:57  <SmatZ> :)
19:16:26  <Ylioppilas> derve works great even on motorola 68k ;)
19:16:58  <Ylioppilas> with 68 kB RAM
19:17:02  <SmatZ> :-)
19:17:23  <Ylioppilas> I'm talking about TI-92 of course, it's afaik based on some version of Derive
19:17:31  <SmatZ> interesting
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19:17:59  <SmatZ> I didn't know they are based on motorola 68k
19:19:12  * Alberth used pencil and paper, a device with non-volatile memory and arbitrary graphing capabilities
19:19:24  <OTTDmaster> lol
19:19:32  <OTTDmaster> ^^^ is the best method of all
19:19:44  <SmatZ> :D
19:19:50  <Alberth> a bit slow though :)
19:20:09  <OTTDmaster> and doens't support multiple cores
19:20:24  <snorre> my 1.1.0-beta2 dedicated just crashed.. Signal:  Segmentation fault (11)
19:20:48  <Ylioppilas> whiteboard is the best actually ;
19:20:49  <Ylioppilas> ;9
19:20:49  <OTTDmaster> I thought segemntation faults were fixed!!?!
19:21:16  <OTTDmaster> compile a bug report at bugs.openttd.org
19:21:22  <SmatZ> snorre: can you upload crash.* to bugs.openttd.org please?
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19:25:03  * OTTDmaster gets scared
19:25:59  <frosch123> [20:20] <OTTDmaster> and doens't support multiple cores <- that only depends on the size of the paper and the number of pencils
19:28:25  <Alberth> The paper and pencil is only to show to the teacher that you have solved the problem. Long before, the shape has already settled in your mind, which is much faster than any device.
19:28:49  <George> Hi. A smal question about action 14
19:29:02  <OTTDmaster> I'll have that as a quote
19:30:39  <George> would it be possible to set 4 logical (yes/no) parameters (every parametear is a bit in the parameter 0, being a number), but disallow a combination of them (value 0 in my case is not allowed, only 1-15 are allowed)
19:31:07  <George> this means avery bit can be 0, but not all togather
19:31:24  <George> is that possible with action 14 sintax?
19:31:42  <frosch123> you can either have 4 yes/no parameters, or one parameter with 4 bits and 16 resp. 15 values
19:31:50  <frosch123> but you cannot specify dependencies between the parameters
19:32:08  <Hirundo> You can use action 7/9 + B to check afterwards
19:32:11  <frosch123> you could only check them later and disable the grf or similiar
19:32:14  <andythenorth> for UKRS 2 pikka is changing some parameters based on settings of others
19:32:30  <andythenorth> incidentally.....hiearachical menus for action 14?
19:32:34  <George> I know it is possible to make enumeration 1-15 , but it is not what i9 want
19:32:47  <snorre> It might be my setup. Im using lots of grfs
19:32:50  <George> frosch123: It is one grfs parameter
19:33:14  <George> but action 14 allows to represent it as 4 in the select menu
19:33:24  <snorre> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4385
19:34:03  <SmatZ> OTTDmaster: my bc finished the computation
19:34:17  <George> frosch123: so bits 0..3 of the parameter are 4 parameters to choose in the interface
19:34:27  <SmatZ> snorre: thanks for the report :)
19:34:41  <SmatZ> snorre: do you have last autosave before the crash?
19:34:54  <SmatZ> snorre: actually... this has been fixed in trunk
19:35:38  <SmatZ> it's not caused by newgrfs, but it's connected to that "Client #86 is dropped because it took longer than 500 ticks for him to join"  message
19:36:07  <OTTDmaster> SmatZ
19:36:16  <OTTDmaster> what version of bc are you using
19:36:24  <OTTDmaster> and what computation
19:36:57  <SmatZ> bc 1.06.95, 666666^666666
19:38:07  <frosch123> George: yes, you can disable single bits from the same register as independent parameters in the gui
19:38:14  <frosch123> s/disable/display/
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19:39:09  <George> frosch123: You have misunderstood me. My question was not is it possible to do so (ECS uses that already)
19:39:20  <frosch123> you do that via the INFO -> PARA -> i -> MASK thingie
19:39:29  <George> My question was isit possible to diasallow their combination
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19:39:59  <frosch123> not in the gui when the user is configuring it, you can only check later when the grf is activated
19:40:04  <George> evry bit can be 0 or 1, but not to allow them to be 0 at the same time
19:40:21  <OTTDmaster> SmatZ have you tried the antichrist of calculators dc?
19:40:39  <OTTDmaster> 6 4 +
19:40:41  <George> frosch123: Yes, I know that I can change 0 value to something else after user specifies it in gui
19:40:44  <SmatZ> OTTDmaster: nope, what is that?
19:40:47  <SmatZ> 6 + 4?
19:40:57  <OTTDmaster> yes Polish notation used
19:41:00  <George> but in this case in save value 0 would be stored
19:41:28  <frosch123> George: yes. so in short: currently not possible
19:41:38  <OTTDmaster> instead of *b* ench *c* alculator, it's *d* esk *c* alculator
19:41:39  <George> Ok.
19:41:50  <George> Thank you
19:42:08  <frosch123> if it would be done somewhen, it would be done via usual action7/9 and actionb
19:42:08  <SmatZ> OTTDmaster: is't been several years since I last used dc, what's so special about the rformula?
19:42:24  <frosch123> i.e. check whether any grf disables itself on something else, before actually starting the game
19:43:26  <snorre> SmatZ: ok :) good to hear. then you dont need the autosave i assume. thanks all!
19:43:32  <SmatZ> :)
19:43:43  <frosch123> OTTDmaster: hint, "6 4 +" is "reverse polish notation". polish notation would be "+ 6 4"
19:43:44  <SmatZ> snorre: no need for autosave anymore, yes :) thanks
19:44:00  <OTTDmaster> I didn't say that anything was good about dc as it's a) a cheater (it uses the bc library) and b) it's extremely hard to perform tasks
19:44:04  <SmatZ> OTTDmaster: "6 4 + p" prints "10", which is expected
19:44:16  <OTTDmaster> frosch123: my bad
19:44:28  * SmatZ prefers infix/postfix/prefix
19:44:33  <frosch123> and if you think rpn is hard to use, you are not used to it :p
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19:45:52  <SmatZ> [20:41:02] <OTTDmaster> SmatZ have you tried the antichrist of calculators dc? <== ok, you call dc "antichrist of calculators", I get it now :P
19:47:15  <SmatZ> actually, I had some short lecture about dc few years ago, I quite enjoyed writing it :)
19:47:50  <SmatZ> too bad nobody understood it :P
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19:50:40  <OTTDmaster> SmatZ: Just as well realy
19:51:05  <SmatZ> http://devs.openttd.org/~smatz/X36UNX%2016%20dc%20bc%20expr%20b.pdf there :)
19:52:24  <OTTDmaster> I'd read it, but it appears to be in a foreign language
19:52:56  <SmatZ> indeed :P
19:53:17  <George> frosch123: And is it possible to have the parameter in the gui, that is displayed according to values of the parameter, being changed by the other parameters, but that can't be changed by a user?
19:53:17  <SmatZ> still the nice example I wasnted to show isn't there :(
19:54:58  <frosch123> George: no
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19:57:03  <George> Ok.
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20:17:37  <planetmaker> andythenorth: drawing road type 2 first (if present) is 'better' because then the visual appearance of two tarmacs on top of eachother doesn't change the road type too much
20:17:40  <planetmaker> visually
20:18:20  <V453000> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4384 <- any ideas if it could be somehow fixed?
20:18:52  <andythenorth> planetmaker: the way I am thinking of interleaving them, I'm not sure that makes a difference???
20:19:08  <andythenorth> potato / potato as they say
20:19:43  <andythenorth> heh, that might be a too specific a reference :D
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20:22:31  <Belugas> chips
20:22:40  <andythenorth> fish
20:22:43  <Belugas> with salt
20:22:51  <andythenorth> + vineagr
20:23:13  <Belugas> won't catch me with those :)
20:24:22  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I might be overlooking something important - how does it work in your view?
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20:24:53  <andythenorth> for simple case, assume 2 roadtypes, both are road-like
20:24:54  <planetmaker> dunno ;-)
20:25:10  <planetmaker> do you distinguish tram tracks, tarmac and catenary?
20:25:29  <andythenorth> yes, but each roadtype should be able to provide sprites for any / all of those
20:25:37  <planetmaker> yeah
20:25:39  <andythenorth> and then the drawing interleaves them
20:25:41  <planetmaker> good
20:26:00  <andythenorth> choosing to draw type 1 or type 2 first then seems arbitrary
20:26:12  <planetmaker> well, may reason for 2 first, then 1: take this:
20:26:28  * andythenorth guesses...
20:26:58  <planetmaker> one road with road type A, nothing else. Now I build another road with road type B and make a junction with the road type A. I'd want road (type) A to stay the dominant one in the junction
20:27:11  <andythenorth> I guessed wrong :)
20:27:28  <andythenorth> that's quite a good behaviour
20:27:35  <planetmaker> it's visual only, but it's more what I'd expect, I think
20:27:47  <andythenorth> what if you build a highway crossing a dirt road?
20:27:49  <andythenorth> hmm
20:27:52  <andythenorth> he
20:28:08  <planetmaker> then delete the dirt road and build highway ;-)
20:28:10  <andythenorth> a roadtype could have a property: prefer to be type 1 or type 2
20:28:17  <andythenorth> but maybe that's too complicated
20:28:22  <planetmaker> yeah
20:28:27  <andythenorth> I thought delete + build again would be good
20:28:34  <andythenorth> but then I thought about competitor roads
20:28:52  <planetmaker> same thing there: competitor keeps his appearance with 1 drawn over 2
20:28:59  <andythenorth> he was there first?
20:29:02  <planetmaker> yeah
20:29:16  <planetmaker> if he's 2nd: well. that's what he is, I keep my stuff
20:29:26  <andythenorth> it's predictable and deterministic
20:29:35  <andythenorth> what happens if type 1 is removed?
20:29:45  <andythenorth> does type 2 shuffle into type 1's bits?
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20:31:56  <planetmaker> sounds probably what seems good
20:32:20  <planetmaker> or we'd have weired and undeterministic behaviour
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20:34:24  <supermop> hello
20:37:32  <andythenorth> hi supermop
20:38:02  <supermop> how are you, andy?
20:38:27  <andythenorth> less baffled
20:39:51  <Alberth> a little while, and the code will actually make sense :)
20:40:35  <andythenorth> it's not so much the code
20:40:43  <andythenorth> it's the architecture :)
20:40:54  <andythenorth> and all the possible things that can go wrong :P
20:45:12  <supermop> actual architecture?
20:45:34  <andythenorth> of the game
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20:45:52  <supermop> hmm
20:46:32  <andythenorth> making a change means thinking about map, vehicle pathfinder, drawing code, multiplayer, save game....lots of bits I don't know much about :)
20:46:51  <andythenorth> fortunately coding newgrf industry is quite complicated too :)
20:47:38  <supermop> well i cannot help you there
20:48:06  <supermop> but if you have any questions about building down the line, I am happy to help
20:49:05  <andythenorth> he
20:53:06  <supermop> still working on crossings?
20:53:41  <andythenorth> no
20:53:45  <andythenorth> roadtypes
20:54:53  * andythenorth ponders compatible types
20:55:40  <supermop> oh man
20:55:47  <supermop> exciting!
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21:03:08  <andythenorth> supermop: it's probably two years work :P
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21:03:17  <andythenorth> planetmaker: can I borrow your brain for some questions?
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21:18:46  <supermop> apparently not...?
21:21:22  <planetmaker> he can. at a time i can think coherently
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21:24:41  <andythenorth> DJNekkid: hi
21:24:45  <andythenorth> railtypes question
21:26:02  <andythenorth> say I have three railtypes (slow, normal, fast), and I have a train that should go on slow or normal, but not fast
21:26:22  <andythenorth> and also normal trains are allowed on fast
21:26:34  <andythenorth> I should define my train as 'slow'
21:26:41  <andythenorth> and set 'normal' as compatible for 'slow' railtype
21:26:41  <andythenorth> ?
21:27:18  <andythenorth> (this is actually to test my understanding for roadtypes)
21:31:16  <planetmaker> you can do both
21:32:57  <planetmaker> unlike railtypes i'd add an introduction date for the road types
21:33:22  <supermop> that sounds good
21:33:40  <supermop> rather than waiting for an 'asphalt' truck to be invented
21:35:23  <DJNekkid> andythenorth: hi :D
21:35:32  <andythenorth> hi
21:35:53  <DJNekkid> that is a "power type" in regards of railtypes
21:36:28  <DJNekkid> then your slow tracks are powered to slow and medium
21:36:36  <DJNekkid> fast is powered on fast and medium
21:36:41  <DJNekkid> and medium is powered on all 3
21:37:14  <DJNekkid> then if you define a train that is ment to use the "slow" rails, then it will be able to use both slow and medium, but not fast
21:39:19  <andythenorth> ok that will do fine
21:39:44  <andythenorth> the context would be roadtypes - for example, preventing dump trucks using highways
21:39:55  <andythenorth> but allowing them on dirt roads and also normal roads
21:39:57  <DJNekkid> that i understood :)
21:40:00  * dihedral burps
21:40:05  <supermop> or F1 cars using dirt roads...
21:40:05  <andythenorth> one thing that might be slightly counterintuitive for roadtypes (compared to current game)
21:40:17  <andythenorth> depending on newgrf author....
21:40:39  <andythenorth> to build tram tracks + road, you might choose a roadtype for 'road with tram tracks'
21:40:55  <andythenorth> which is different to how it's done now
21:41:02  <supermop> that sounds fine to me though
21:41:11  <andythenorth> this would use one of the two roadtype slots on a tile
21:41:15  <DJNekkid> would no a bit with "allow tram" be better?
21:41:32  <andythenorth> but you might also build road, then choose to build tram...which would use both of the roadtype slots on the tile :o
21:41:40  <andythenorth> so players could be confused
21:41:56  * andythenorth wonders if there's a way to tell the game to bump roadtypes when combining
21:42:02  <supermop> what if instead there was a convert tool
21:42:06  <supermop> like for rail
21:42:15  <andythenorth> yes that's an idea
21:42:16  <andythenorth> or a varaction 2 mapping existing labels to a new label
21:42:23  <supermop> so you just convert your road to road with tram
21:42:30  <andythenorth> on construction
21:42:38  <supermop> or convert your tram to tram with cat.
21:42:54  * andythenorth thinks of something evil
21:43:04  <andythenorth> we could just have *one* roadtype :o
21:43:10  <andythenorth> on the tile
21:43:22  <andythenorth> and make the menu combine 16 options from four basic types :o
21:43:27  <andythenorth> evil schmeevil
21:43:35  <andythenorth> would have problems at crossings though
21:43:40  <supermop> i mean, if its easy to use, why not?
21:43:45  <supermop> hm yeah
21:43:47  <andythenorth> evil menu
21:44:07  <andythenorth> and junctions just *need* two roadtypes on the tile, or there are all kinds of problems
21:44:15  <Belugas> logs reading logs reading logs reading...my eyes are falling out of their sockets
21:44:40  <andythenorth> one roadtype would mean *lots* of spare bits though :)
21:44:46  <andythenorth> what could we do with them?
21:45:01  <andythenorth> sell them on eBay!
21:45:08  <supermop> trolley wire vs modern caternary?
21:45:10  <andythenorth> auction them to people who want underground metro!
21:45:13  <supermop> ha
21:45:47  <andythenorth> bah
21:45:57  * andythenorth remembers about the fricking tram problem
21:46:13  <andythenorth> trams get stuck if they can't travel onto the next tile
21:46:18  <andythenorth> and they can't be made to turn aroun
21:46:21  <andythenorth> around
21:46:32  <andythenorth> this is already a problem if the player misses a bit of tram track
21:47:02  <andythenorth> it will be worse if there is tram track on the next tile, but of a different type with no power
21:47:08  <andythenorth> stuck trams everywhere :P
21:47:28  <planetmaker> the property 'powered' IMHO makes no sense for roads
21:47:41  <planetmaker> just compatible will do
21:47:47  <andythenorth> something equivalent would be needed
21:47:52  <planetmaker> no
21:47:57  <andythenorth> just use the label?
21:47:59  <andythenorth> electric or not
21:48:14  <planetmaker> all that is defined by the compatible road types
21:48:23  <andythenorth> from the point of view of current rv acceleration code  power  makes no sense
21:48:34  <andythenorth> removing it means the vehicle doesn't move :P
21:48:40  <andythenorth> only one engine
21:48:57  <andythenorth> and it would be better not to rewrite rv code
21:49:20  <andythenorth> still....tram problem remains :(
21:49:25  <planetmaker> vehicles are powered. All. They can either drive *there* or not
21:49:32  <andythenorth> yup
21:49:40  <planetmaker> trams are no problem. Tram tracks are compatible to tram tracks. done
21:49:47  <andythenorth> an electric tram couldn't drive on non-electric tram tracks
21:49:55  <andythenorth> I quite fancy non-electric tram tracks :)
21:49:57  <planetmaker> you do that with compatibility
21:50:12  <andythenorth> yup, but the tram still gets stuck
21:50:17  <planetmaker> DieselTram: TRAM, E-Tram
21:50:22  <planetmaker> E-Tram: TRAM
21:50:22  * andythenorth doesn't fancy rewriting tram pathfinder :D
21:50:23  <planetmaker> done
21:50:34  <andythenorth> trams won't turn without...hmm
21:50:37  <planetmaker> no need. Just look for compatible types
21:50:48  <andythenorth> it looks to me like they need the half-tile and they'll turn
21:50:51  <andythenorth> maybe I'm wrong.
21:51:00  <andythenorth> I did read the tram code yesterday
21:51:17  <andythenorth> trams won't turn at the end of a full tile of tram track
21:52:04  <andythenorth> planetmaker: you think ignore electric or not, the catenary is just a visual effect?
21:52:08  <planetmaker> yes
21:52:19  <planetmaker> rest is done by compatibility list
21:52:25  <planetmaker> same for railtypes actually
21:52:30  <andythenorth> I don't much like it, but I don't much want to recode tram movement code
21:52:44  <andythenorth> it's a logical shortcut
21:52:53  <planetmaker> I don't see where you have to recode that
21:53:05  <andythenorth> I'm not very good at explaining the issue :)
21:53:09  <planetmaker> just amend for the compatible types
21:53:40  <planetmaker> maybe a road type has a flag like 'tram movement'
21:53:47  <andythenorth> so all tram tracks are compatible with each other?
21:53:52  <planetmaker> no
21:54:11  <planetmaker> A: compatible with B, C
21:54:17  <planetmaker> B: compatible with E,F
21:54:22  <andythenorth> yeah ok
21:54:33  <andythenorth> the issue is trams are currently slightly stupid
21:54:34  <andythenorth> http://tt-foundry.com/misc/tram_stuck.png
21:54:54  <Rubidium> so... give it orders
21:55:08  <supermop> a tram will already not route over road without track, so could e-trams just be blind to non powered track?
21:55:15  <andythenorth> where DieselTram joins E-Tram there will eventually be a queue of stuck trams
21:55:30  <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes. so what?
21:55:36  <andythenorth> all trying to reach a depot, or lost, or confused because they took a wrong turning when a player was changing track
21:55:45  <planetmaker> trains also get stuck on non-e-rail
21:55:47  <Rubidium> andythenorth: only when the network is ill designed
21:55:53  <andythenorth> trains can be turned
21:55:56  <andythenorth> trams can't
21:55:59  <Rubidium> and/or the vehicles are not given orders
21:56:02  <andythenorth> or I'm doing it wrong (possible)
21:56:07  <andythenorth> yes, no orders
21:56:18  <planetmaker> orders might help ;-)
21:56:18  <andythenorth> ignore it?
21:56:24  <andythenorth> fix it later if it's really a problem?
21:56:27  <andythenorth> suits me :D
21:56:49  <andythenorth> one problem less
21:57:35  <supermop> yeah
21:57:52  * andythenorth is now pleased with how roadtypes might work :o
21:58:01  <andythenorth> tomorrow I will find 10 more problems :|
21:58:11  <andythenorth> problem #1 my c++ is inadequate
21:58:15  <andythenorth> and I'm bad at bit maths
21:59:50  <dihedral> night night
21:59:55  <andythenorth> night
22:00:03  <planetmaker> night
22:06:42  <Belugas> night
22:10:35  <andythenorth> hmm
22:10:59  <andythenorth> the FISH towboat with 4 barges looks about 1.5 times bigger than the largest coaster
22:11:26  <andythenorth> but currently I'm setting tow boat capacity 1.25 times lower than largest coaster
22:11:29  <andythenorth> that's probably wrong
22:12:11  <andythenorth> ach
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22:21:52  <supermop> i think it is ok,
22:21:57  <supermop> barges are huge
22:22:18  <supermop> at least the ones we have on the mississippi are
22:22:36  <supermop> but with very shallow draft
22:24:00  <andythenorth> hmm
22:24:14  <andythenorth> I have a clipping problem with the barge tow in locks :D
22:24:17  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r21737 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r1)[FS#4384-ish]: A loading order was also marked as 'not part of orders' when the order before the current order was deleted.
22:24:21  <andythenorth> might have to rethink :P
22:24:23  <Zuu> You know there has been little translator activity the last 24 hours when Swedish is mentioned in the translation updates :-)
22:24:38  <supermop> hmm
22:25:09  <supermop> on the mississippi, often only one barge goes into a lock at a time,
22:25:16  <andythenorth> tow boat + 4 barges is a problem in canals too
22:25:17  <Rubidium> Zuu: well, I think the Swedish translator likes to make (really) small steps
22:25:18  <supermop> not possible with ottd
22:25:25  <andythenorth> supermop: nope ;p
22:25:32  <andythenorth> watertypes!
22:25:39  <supermop> yes please
22:25:46  * andythenorth wonders if watertypes is actually baby steps to roadtypes?
22:25:57  <supermop> it might be simpler
22:26:03  <Rubidium> but... we already have 4 water types
22:26:11  <supermop> hopefully no need to worry about power
22:26:29  <supermop> unless its a raft that floats down stream...
22:26:34  <andythenorth> Rubidium: what's the fourth type?
22:26:40  <andythenorth> shore?
22:26:53  <Rubidium> 1) sea, 2) river, 3) canal, 4) cargo
22:27:12  *** JVassie [~James@92.27.149.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:27:18  <andythenorth> how does #4 work?
22:27:23  <andythenorth> I haz not found that cookie
22:27:36  <andythenorth> hmm
22:27:42  <andythenorth> *loads* of free bits for water
22:27:44  <Rubidium> you buy a water truck and that allows you to have water on the road
22:27:55  <andythenorth> he
22:28:00  <andythenorth> not in FIRS :P
22:28:12  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r21738 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix (r21642)[FS#4384]: Start loading when cur_order_index points to the destination station, i.e. after deleting not-reached automatic orders.
22:29:01  <frosch123> V453000: your turn
22:29:15  <frosch123> :p
22:29:20  <andythenorth> water tiles should donate some bits to other tiles :P
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22:29:47  <andythenorth> I suppose using some bits in one tile to store an offset into another tile is a foolish idea?
22:30:47  <supermop> how do you mean?
22:31:29  <andythenorth> if I'm short of bits on a tile, I store the id of another tile which has more bits free
22:31:45  <andythenorth> then I store my stuff in the second tile and fetch it when I needed
22:31:46  <andythenorth> it's a very good and very bad idea
22:32:24  <supermop> heh
22:32:32  <supermop> sounds dangerous
22:33:20  <andythenorth> hmm
22:33:30  <andythenorth> can we halve the size of current maps?
22:33:48  <andythenorth> then reuse the other half for extra bits?
22:34:08  <supermop> i was just going to say that as a joke
22:34:25  <frosch123> andythenorth: you might be able to store the 4 altitude bits in 3, freeing 1 bit
22:34:42  <andythenorth> frosch123: I don't know what I'd do with it :)
22:34:48  <andythenorth> I'm just fooling :)
22:35:24  <Zuu> Rubidium: I was mostly refering to the fact that most of the times I've made changes it has not shown up on the truncated CIA messages which is maybe good because then I don't get highlighted. :-)
22:35:58  <andythenorth> I assume my halve the map / double the storage idea is stupid?
22:36:35  <andythenorth> introducing m8-16
22:38:50  <andythenorth> time for bed :)
22:38:53  <SmatZ> nn andythenorth
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22:39:36  <frosch123> bah, the number of 1.0.5 servers is annoying
22:39:59  <SmatZ> :)
22:40:10  <frosch123> thought there is even at least one client on half of them
22:40:22  <SmatZ> I rather wonder about those 1.0.0-RC* ones
22:40:59  <frosch123> he, there is even a server with empty name, didn't you fix that recently?
22:41:27  <SmatZ> I don't think I fixed it, I only demonstrated it's possible :)
22:41:37  <SmatZ> it would need masterserver to reject empty name
22:41:45  <Rubidium> the server has no empty name
22:41:55  <SmatZ> but still, it would accept "space" as server name...
22:41:55  <Rubidium> it's just django messing up
22:43:31  <Rubidium> the server with the "empty" name is called: [FR] Au p'tit Francais [1970-2050|5Air|No90°|Autoclean]
22:46:08  *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:46:16  <Zuu> At least there is a couple of 1.1.0-beta2 servers.
22:46:36  <Rubidium> SmatZ: but... if you're bothered by the ancient servers, do something about it ;)
22:48:06  <fonsinchen> Rubidium: I have fixed the things you've commented about. Thanks
22:48:10  <SmatZ> :-) I hope people won't dislike people if the last message before server crash is "SmatZ joined the game..."
22:48:23  <fonsinchen> I have changed the text effects to display both figures in one line
22:48:26  <SmatZ> [23:48:50] <SmatZ> :-) I hope people won't dislike people <== dislike me
22:48:30  <Rubidium> SmatZ: "Fred joined the game ..."
22:48:33  <SmatZ> :D
22:48:35  <fonsinchen> I don't know if that's better than the previous solution.
22:49:21  <fonsinchen> And I've created a new branch cargo-split-merge for the Split and Merge functions of cargopacket
22:49:29  <Zuu> Does 1.0.5 have known fatal bugs?
22:49:40  <fonsinchen> Currently it also contains the documentation changes, but those will be split off into another branch.
22:50:07  <frosch123> Zuu: no, but the old 1.0.0-rc*
22:50:28  <Zuu> Ok
22:50:29  <SmatZ> Zuu: secret :)
22:50:40  <fonsinchen> And you may want to read https://github.com/fonsinchen/openttd-cargodist/blob/cd/docs/linkgraph.txt
22:50:48  <frosch123> the 1.0.0-rc* ones are not that secret
22:51:09  <Zuu> SmatZ: I didn't expect you to come up there and explain a step by step guide on how to remotly crash servers ;-)
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22:51:22  <Zuu> That's not what I would do either.
22:51:43  <frosch123> Zuu: http://security.openttd.org/en/CVE-2009-4007
22:51:52  <frosch123> the best of all :)
22:51:53  <Rubidium> Zuu: actually, *if* you know where to look you can find a recipe for crashing < 1.1.0 servers
22:53:22  <SmatZ> :)
22:55:30  * Rubidium ponders some oneirology
22:55:46  <SmatZ> enjoy Rubidium :)
22:56:26  <Rubidium> you know the word?
22:56:33  <Rubidium> or did you just guess?
22:56:47  <Zuu> It's on wikipedia
22:57:02  <SmatZ> Rubidium: google :)
22:57:18  <SmatZ> I use it often for your strange words :-D
22:58:01  <Rubidium> yeah, I like strange and archaic words in lieu of "simple English" ;)
23:00:32  *** xiong [~xiong@netblock-72-25-106-218.dslextreme.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:10:07  <Mazur> Dream-knowledge.
23:10:17  <fonsinchen> good night
23:10:53  *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbaac48.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:11:21  <Mazur> From the greek οΜείρος, dream.
23:11:47  <Mazur> No need to google that.
23:13:01  <SmatZ> greek letters look similiar to cyrilic
23:20:06  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:21:07  <frosch123> yup, ДЛрУЀХ are quite similar to greek ones
23:26:33  <__ln___> also П
23:29:46  <SmatZ> Г Е O...
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23:33:18  <frosch123> E O are latin as well
23:33:24  *** mib_iqjq2o is now known as kamnet
23:34:17  <frosch123> cyrillic B fits to neither latin nor greek though
23:34:51  <SmatZ> some languages have only small difference between B and V
23:34:53  <SmatZ> like, spanish
23:35:17  <SmatZ> (maybe it's a big difference for spanish, but a little difference for me :)
23:35:22  <SmatZ> Terkhen are you here? :)
23:35:37  *** Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit []
23:38:13  <SmatZ> nice, camera on my notebook works with just kernel drivers :)
23:38:25  <SmatZ> except it's upside-down in skype
23:39:03  *** dfox [~dfox@ip-84-42-201-180.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd
23:42:01  <Zuu> SmatZ: So you need some mirror system or figure out how to reverse the screen and turn your laptop upside down :-)
23:42:43  <Zuu> night
23:43:15  <SmatZ> hehe :)
23:43:18  <SmatZ> good night Zuu
23:45:59  *** [com]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:48:47  <Mazur> I'd imagine that's just an option.
23:50:20  <__ln___> SmatZ: the sounds /b/ and /v/ are allophones in spanish as far as i know.
23:51:01  *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:52:36  <__ln___> meaning they are variants of the same phoneme, and replacing one with another doesn't change the meaning of a word.
23:53:02  <SmatZ> interesting
23:56:23  <__ln___> actually, i'm not sure if it's transcribed as /b/, but anyhow the letter 'b' that is in the middle of a word sounds like /v/.
23:56:30  *** kamnet [4cb171cd@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
23:56:53  <__ln___> in the begin of a word there is a clear distinction, and b sounds like b.
23:59:07  <SmatZ> :)

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