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Log for #openttd on 15th January 2011:
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00:00:31  *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:01:15  <Eddi|zuHause> (the readme would then tell people that setting scenario_developer or newgrf_developer will disable this)
00:06:45  *** Devroush [~dennis@94-225-64-33.access.telenet.be] has quit []
00:10:30  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r21799 /trunk/src/saveload/oldloader_sl.cpp: -Fix: further variables need to be reset when we loaded a TTDPatch savegame in the past
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00:15:30  <z-MaTRiX_nonidentified> h
00:16:29  <Eddi|zuHause> is there any chance we could get a "new vehicle available" newspaper when a new wagon gets available?
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00:17:44  <Lakie> Rubidium: with cb157, if its handled do I now need to havndle bit 4?
00:18:01  <Lakie> ie. do I have to check for steep slopes now?
00:20:45  <Wolf01> 'night
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00:22:51  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: hmm, isn't that what is happening?
00:23:26  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: last time i played, you only got messages for engines, wagons were silently added to the buy list
00:24:29  <Eddi|zuHause> to be fair, this may have been like a year ago
00:25:15  <frosch123> yeah, you are right
00:25:28  <frosch123> but i remember it was different once
00:26:51  <__ln__> "but then i woke up"?
00:28:59  <Eddi|zuHause> it was never different
00:29:12  <Eddi|zuHause> just in the original game no wagons ever got available
00:29:43  <frosch123> i remember news about wagons, they were quite annoying, because they were lot and in a short period of time
00:29:50  <Eddi|zuHause> or actually, they do. for maglev and monorail
00:30:26  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: maybe that was in the patch?
00:30:44  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: or maybe you think road vehicles
00:32:13  <__ln__> the news popups are decided not to be annoying by DarkVater, so they are not annoying.
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00:35:02  <frosch123> @commit 115
00:35:02  <DorpsGek> frosch123: Commit by dominik :: r115 /trunk (engine.c table/engines.h) (2004-08-23 07:50:01 UTC)
00:35:03  <DorpsGek> frosch123: Fix: monorail/maglev became available around 1927
00:35:14  <frosch123> weird commit message, but that one adds the wagon-check
00:36:36  <frosch123> so yes, in that case i likely remembered ttdp
00:37:10  <frosch123> as i discovered ottd around a half year after that
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00:37:33  <z-MaTRiX_nonidentified> :)
00:37:35  <z-MaTRiX_nonidentified> nice
00:37:39  <z-MaTRiX_nonidentified> maglev in 1927
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00:39:33  <frosch123> anyway, night
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01:54:08  <Eddi|zuHause> yay. rain.
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02:26:01  <JOHN-SHEPARD> oh shit i got an train crash
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04:25:15  <Chris_Booth> night all
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07:02:11  <Terkhen> good morning
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07:22:27  <planetmaker> moin
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07:51:23  <LordAro> moin
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07:53:08  <Terkhen> hi planetmaker and LordAro
07:53:31  <LordAro> Terkhen: still setting up kvirc :)
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07:54:15  <Terkhen> hmm? unless you want SSL you just have to install and open it
07:54:35  <LordAro> setting up as in making it look how i want
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07:54:55  <Terkhen> oh
07:55:09  <Terkhen> I just chose the most simple of the available themes and forgot about that
07:58:56  <LordAro> good point that...
07:59:03  * LordAro does the same
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08:26:47  <andythenorth> trams http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?popular=24
08:27:02  <andythenorth> http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=351563
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08:49:38  <z-MaTRiX_nonidentified> h
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09:10:51  <dihedral> :-( dd to a samba share is very slow here :-(
09:11:06  <dihedral> why on earth would it only reach like 700K/s
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09:14:30  <Rubidium> bufferbloat?
09:14:44  <Rubidium> lots of fsyncs/fdatasyncs?
09:14:53  <dihedral> hmmm
09:15:37  <dihedral> do you know an alternative to suchessfully create a restorable backup in a short time period
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09:18:30  <Rubidium> rsync
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09:24:17  <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: did you try increasing the blocksize?
09:24:38  <dihedral> actually no :-P
09:25:16  <dihedral> was that a 'try that' or 'don't try that' hint
09:25:37  <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: i don't see why that should hurt...
09:30:53  <dihedral> hmm - does not take me over 3 M/s
09:30:57  <dihedral> it's a start though
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09:53:47  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21800 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp:
09:53:47  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#3569]: under certain circumstances one could crash a competitor's
09:53:47  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: train; take the lazy non-future proof version of the fix from the 1.0 branch as
09:53:47  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: fixing the real bug is significantly more complex and might even break some
09:53:47  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: backwards compatability if not done perfectly
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10:06:39  <Alberth> moin
10:06:46  <dihedral> hello Alberth
10:06:59  <andythenorth> moin
10:07:06  <andythenorth> 'moin' is contagious :P
10:09:23  <Terkhen> :)
10:12:02  <Eddi|zuHause> it has been "thriving" over the last 50 or so years ;)
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10:44:37  <Wolf01> hello
10:46:47  <__ln__> night
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11:06:41  <ZirconiumX> hello
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11:53:40  <ZirconiumX> so which LordAro is the Lord Aro?
11:55:36  * ZirconiumX is confused
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11:58:26  <planetmaker> hm... http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/51/ <-- if I now try to build a wind powerplant next to another existing one, the error message I get is 'object cannot be build. Land slopes in wrong direction'
11:58:40  <planetmaker> that's... somewhat not correct. Any way to change the error message via newgrf?
11:59:07  <ZirconiumX> so that's the correct Lord Aro
11:59:23  <planetmaker> ZirconiumX: ZirconiumX ZirconiumX
11:59:31  <planetmaker> just to add a few random, annoying highlights
11:59:46  <ZirconiumX> yes - but there isn't a ZirconiumX\_
12:00:25  * ZirconiumX doesn't mind the highlights - isn't doing much anyway
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12:41:46  <dihedral> planetmaker, that was just one highlight :-P
12:47:04  <George> Do houses in arctic require food to grow if no food cargo is defined?
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12:50:37  <planetmaker> iirc, yes
12:50:59  <planetmaker> though it might then require just the cargo which food is replaced by.
12:51:08  <planetmaker> But you can re-define the town growth cargo via newgrf
12:51:26  <planetmaker> which you should, if you meddle with food
12:52:26  <planetmaker> the question only is: is it more a house newgrf thing or more and industry newgrf thing. Best is that both take care of it
13:05:28  <Eddi|zuHause> you can give any cargo TE_FOOD
13:06:36  <Eddi|zuHause> George: alpine has that problem, it removes food, and doesn't provide any replacement, so towns above snow line won't grow
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13:06:45  <Eddi|zuHause> (unless you fund new buildings)
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13:37:24  <planetmaker> andythenorth: you may know some of those sprites ;-) http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=52396
13:37:50  <andythenorth> planetmaker: :0
13:37:58  <andythenorth> you should credit Zephyris for the turbines ;)
13:38:05  <andythenorth> all I did was sort out the animation frames :)
13:38:20  <planetmaker> hm, did you? Hm... I thought it was all yours
13:38:30  <andythenorth> no :)
13:38:34  <andythenorth> easily fixed
13:38:54  <planetmaker> well. changed the posting
13:41:00  <planetmaker> also changed docs
13:42:22  <planetmaker> thanks for telling me :-) Credit shall be whom credit is due
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14:07:16  * ZirconiumX goes source grabbing racing
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14:10:43  <kamnet> Question on opengrx+landscape, are the windmills supposed to face due-west into the wind?
14:13:46  <dihedral> is that not normal?
14:13:58  * ZirconiumX doesn't know
14:15:26  <kamnet> I don't know either. Never been near a windmill of any kind myself, but I'd think that the blades would be lined up west-to-east.
14:15:42  * ZirconiumX disagrees
14:16:34  <ZirconiumX> the wind varies, so one moment the wind might be SE, the next it's E
14:16:35  <frosch123> hint: windmill turn themself into the wind, they are not fixed
14:16:44  <planetmaker> kamnet: they're correct, if you consider the coal powerplant smoke
14:17:25  <planetmaker> and that smoke is what I consider the dominant wind direction in OpenTTD ;-)
14:17:28  <kamnet> lol
14:17:43  <planetmaker> well. yes
14:18:19  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r21801 /trunk/src/object_gui.cpp: -Fix (r21772): Attach scrollbar to select matrix in object gui.
14:18:21  <planetmaker> check out the ECS newgrfs and you'll find that wind direction everywhere ;-)
14:19:55  <kamnet> In ECS Vectors 1.0?
14:20:47  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r21802 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Cleanup (r2600): remove unused _vehicle_id_ctr_day
14:23:46  <dihedral> planetmaker, and windsocks at the airfields
14:24:14  <planetmaker> dihedral: that's working in the reverse direction ;-)
14:24:23  * dihedral bought a 500GB esata 2.5" hdd :-)
14:24:24  <planetmaker> but the flame of the refinery
14:24:51  <dihedral> planetmaker, why would windsocks work in the reverse direction?
14:25:11  <planetmaker> just look at the graphics. They simply _are_. Not that it makes sense
14:25:32  * kamnet fixed the windsocks, actually
14:25:55  * ZirconiumX thinks life doesn't make sense
14:26:07  <planetmaker> yeah :-) But I didn't yet get around to fixing it in OpenGFX. And it was agreed that it should not be fixed in the TTD baseset
14:26:31  <dihedral> it should be fixed in opengfx if you ask me :-P
14:26:40  <planetmaker> ... yes, of course
14:26:44  <dihedral> well, unless it gives sidewind to the runways :-P
14:26:59  <dihedral> or lets planes start and land downwind :-D
14:27:06  <planetmaker> and as just said: kamnet even fixed the graphics so far. It needs *someone* to actually implement it
14:27:41  <planetmaker> and unfortunately there's currently only about one *someone* who actually codes OpenGFX, though there's sufficient sprites for at least two *someone*s
14:29:32  <andythenorth> BAH
14:29:36  <andythenorth> smoke for ships :(
14:32:00  <andythenorth> Dan MacK drew a paddle steamer :)
14:32:01  <andythenorth> http://tt-foundry.com/misc/paddle_steamer.png
14:32:39  <kamnet> That looks nice!
14:34:21  <andythenorth> needs smoke :)
14:36:16  <frosch123> planetmaker: ask fred, maybe he helps out :p
14:36:44  <andythenorth> can't fred code smoke instead?
14:37:03  * ZirconiumX thinks the welders did a ba job of the smokestack
14:37:08  <ZirconiumX> *bad
14:37:29  <planetmaker> uhm... is there a dent in the ship, andythenorth ?
14:38:04  * ZirconiumX thinks they forgot how to do the sides as well
14:38:41  <planetmaker> it looks like there's a dent where the water(?) smoke(?) ends about mid-ship
14:39:09  <ZirconiumX> the ship looks like a seabourne cursor
14:39:30  <SmatZ> nice, if you start a script by "$!/bin/bash" instead if "#!/bin/bash", it will start a new shell and you will wonder why the script doesn't work...
14:39:52  <ZirconiumX> heh
14:40:08  <ZirconiumX> have you heard the infamous UNIX rule
14:40:27  <SmatZ> I don't know :)
14:40:42  <Terkhen> :D
14:40:52  <ZirconiumX> BTW in configure in the source, how do you give a path to the library?
14:41:08  <ZirconiumX> UNIX believes you...Unfortunately
14:41:16  <ZirconiumX> Let me demonstrate
14:41:32  <Terkhen> I don't remember, but it is listed at ./configure --help
14:41:42  <ZirconiumX> if you writes the command
14:41:57  <ZirconiumX> ls -al > file.txt
14:42:02  <ZirconiumX> it does that
14:42:13  <ZirconiumX> what if your finger slips?
14:42:35  <ZirconiumX> ls -al < file.txt
14:42:57  <ZirconiumX> you may get lucky
14:43:08  <ZirconiumX> In BASH it gives up
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14:44:15  <SmatZ> :)
14:44:30  * Alberth fails to see the problem
14:44:33  <ZirconiumX> If you do
14:44:55  <ZirconiumX> patch -p0 < file.diff
14:45:01  <ZirconiumX> and slip
14:45:16  <ZirconiumX> patch -p0 > file.diff
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14:45:26  <SmatZ> :D
14:45:41  <SmatZ> he probably tried to redirect something
14:45:42  <planetmaker> lalalala :-)
14:45:47  *** ZirconiumX [561b9bc6@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
14:45:51  <SmatZ> :P
14:46:10  <SmatZ> well, yes redirecting stdin instead of stdout can cause various problems
14:46:21  <SmatZ> including destroying your entire work
14:46:26  <Alberth> adding an extra space is much more fun :)
14:46:32  <ZirconiumX> see Alberth
14:46:49  <Alberth> rm ./x*   vs  rm ./x *   :)
14:46:53  <SmatZ> :)
14:47:02  <planetmaker> :-D
14:47:12  <ZirconiumX> what about moving to a directory called budget backup
14:47:19  * frosch123 once typed rm instead of cp
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14:47:34  <planetmaker> :-P was not fun, eh?
14:47:38  <ZirconiumX> but you have a precious file called budget?
14:47:39  <frosch123> and wondered why the usb stick was empty later
14:47:51  <SmatZ> :D
14:47:59  <ZirconiumX> rm budget backup
14:48:00  <Alberth> and I am always tempted to make a file called * in some one else home directory :)
14:48:08  <frosch123> i only discovered it an hour later when examining the history on the other computer :)
14:48:09  <SmatZ> hehe
14:48:24  <Alberth> ZirconiumX: file-completion fixes that nicely
14:48:39  <ZirconiumX> rm blows away budget, and leaves the useless file budget backup
14:48:50  <dihedral> Alberth, \* ?
14:49:07  <Alberth> if you know your way around unix, yes
14:49:13  * ZirconiumX has just hung BASH using the wrong redirection trick
14:49:15  <dihedral> i had a file named -r ones :-P
14:49:24  <Alberth> but several newbies would first try   rm *   :)
14:49:31  <dihedral> hehe
14:49:34  <ZirconiumX> rmdir -r
14:49:37  <ZirconiumX> lol
14:49:48  <dihedral> rmdir??
14:49:55  * Terkhen recommends suicide linux
14:49:59  <SmatZ> :)
14:50:03  <ZirconiumX> ReMove DIRectory
14:50:08  <Alberth> rmdir has no -r option
14:50:23  <Terkhen> and IIRC it does not remove directories unless they are empty
14:50:34  <Alberth> yeah, way too much protection :)
14:51:33  * ZirconiumX thought rmdir had a -r(ecursive) option
14:51:43  <planetmaker> hehe
14:51:48  <planetmaker> we know _that_
14:52:19  <ZirconiumX> go to csh
14:52:24  <ZirconiumX> cd ~god
14:52:28  <ZirconiumX> :p
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14:52:49  <ZirconiumX> csh: unknown user: god
14:53:05  <Alberth> zsh: no such user or named directory: god
14:53:40  <dihedral> oh dear lord
14:53:41  <ZirconiumX> doesn't work for bash
14:53:43  <planetmaker> it's only worrysome if you don't find god but devil
14:53:49  <dihedral> i prefer going to ~superuser :-D
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14:54:09  <dihedral> if there is a devil there is a god :-p
14:54:12  <ZirconiumX> darwin is annoying
14:54:28  <dihedral> why would that be
14:54:30  <ZirconiumX> you have to do sudo su to get intos superuser mode
14:54:58  <ZirconiumX> su has *always* failed when I try plain su
14:54:59  <Alberth> just a matter of configuring your system
14:55:11  <dihedral> :-)
14:55:15  <dihedral> what Alberth says
14:55:22  <planetmaker> :(){ :|:&};: <-- is a good bash command, too ;-)
14:55:33  * ZirconiumX wonders what the superuser password is for a non superuser system
14:55:44  <Alberth> *
14:55:46  <Terkhen> root/root?
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14:55:51  <dihedral> eh? what?
14:55:54  <planetmaker> ZirconiumX: there's no such system...
14:56:06  <ZirconiumX> yes
14:56:11  <ZirconiumX> csh
14:56:17  <SmatZ> :-)
14:56:23  * dihedral is amused :-D
14:56:29  <planetmaker> :-)
14:56:31  <ZirconiumX>  /(-
14:56:33  <Terkhen> isn't that a shell?
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14:56:41  <planetmaker> Terkhen: it is
14:56:43  <dihedral> what os do you have? - bash!
14:56:54  <ZirconiumX> He sells C shells on the C shore
14:56:58  <planetmaker> emacs, dihedral !
14:57:06  <Terkhen> oh :P
14:57:07  <planetmaker> I'm just lacking a good editor.
14:57:14  <ZirconiumX> I use pico
14:57:19  <ZirconiumX> sorry nano
14:57:21  <Alberth> vim!  :)
14:57:28  <dihedral> vim
14:57:34  <dihedral> nano  - pfft
14:57:45  <dihedral> fte is interesting too, very small
14:57:55  * ZirconiumX wouldn't use ed if his life depended on it
14:58:12  * ZirconiumX woulduse EDLIN instead
14:58:16  <planetmaker> easy saying, if it doesn't
14:58:31  <ZirconiumX> EDLIN is a DOS editor
14:58:40  <ZirconiumX> macs don't run dos
14:58:47  <ZirconiumX> :p
14:59:04  <SmatZ> you can run dosbox
14:59:04  <dihedral> dosbox
14:59:08  <SmatZ> haha :P
14:59:11  <dihedral> grr SmatZ you beat me to it
14:59:18  <dihedral> ^^
14:59:24  <planetmaker> :-)
14:59:46  <ZirconiumX> csh again
14:59:47  <ZirconiumX> make ' ' bang ' ' with gun
14:59:58  <ZirconiumX> make: don't know how to make target
15:00:07  <ZirconiumX> http://www.tbi.univie.ac.at/~ronke/FUN/unix.html
15:00:13  * planetmaker wonders whether "python -c 'while 1: __import__("os").fork()'" will have any effect on ZirconiumX's computer :-P
15:00:48  * Alberth guesses it does
15:01:28  <ZirconiumX> IT slows it down
15:01:39  <ZirconiumX> but luckily it quits afterwards
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15:01:59  * ZirconiumX bashes bash
15:02:13  * dihedral laughs :-P
15:02:23  <ZirconiumX> hah
15:02:28  <dihedral> try the following
15:02:37  <ZirconiumX> bash bash
15:02:45  <ZirconiumX> bash: /bin/bash: cannot execute binary file
15:02:57  <ZirconiumX> can't open bash
15:03:10  <dihedral> sudo su -c "echo 1 > /dev/kmem"
15:03:11  <dihedral> :-D
15:03:13  <dihedral> hehehe
15:03:32  <planetmaker> doesn't look healthy ;-)
15:03:32  <dihedral> and then i'd very quickly remove power from the computer
15:03:37  <dihedral> it's not
15:03:39  <dihedral> far from it
15:03:45  <dihedral> if ZirconiumX times out - he tried it
15:03:51  * ZirconiumX daren't as it contains su
15:04:12  <planetmaker> hm, ZirconiumX you got 10.4,x right? so, on ppc, they didn't have yet bash, but tsh or alike?
15:04:18  <dihedral> if that is all that is stopping you - give me a few moments :-P
15:04:31  <Alberth> just sudo would be enough?
15:04:41  <dihedral> planetmaker, it's bash - or a version thereof
15:04:48  <planetmaker> ?
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15:04:53  <ZirconiumX> 10.2 used tcsh
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15:05:01  <planetmaker> dihedral: IIRC the default bash is not bash on 10.4
15:05:04  <Alberth> oh joy
15:05:13  <dihedral> i have 10.4
15:05:24  <planetmaker> at least I just had to fix something on the macbook of my japanese collegue - and I was flabergasted at the shell...
15:05:25  <dihedral> hmmm - perhaps i changed it to bash
15:05:25  <ZirconiumX> 10.3 becomes BASH
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15:05:44  <planetmaker> well, maybe she changed default, but given her skills with the machine, I doubt it.
15:05:46  <dihedral> well it is a little different
15:06:06  <dihedral> those who you doubt to change something, are quite good at doing so without even knowing it
15:06:09  * ZirconiumX is annoyed
15:06:17  <planetmaker> he, also true, dihedral ;-)
15:06:18  * ZirconiumX wants fish on darwin
15:06:36  * ZirconiumX is a noob because of it
15:06:41  <dihedral> ZirconiumX, then shake your hdd while its running - there, you do not need sudo su for that :-p
15:07:19  * ZirconiumX knows how to fix this
15:07:47  * ZirconiumX puts computer in pond, grabs rod and waits
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15:08:37  <planetmaker> now you all annoyed DorpsGek ;-)
15:09:23  <kamnet> Hm, for my bauxite mine, should I have a loader right at the mine, or should I use HEQS to haul the bauxite 20-30 tiles to a loading station?
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15:09:42  <ZirconiumX> right at the mine
15:10:49  <kamnet> Trying to decide how much land transforming I want to do to fit a loader in there
15:11:46  <planetmaker> none ;-)
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15:12:22  <frosch123> http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/fs_eddi.diff <- interested in finishing that? too tedious for me...
15:12:28  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: ^^
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15:12:43  <kamnet> The mine is nestled in a small valley next to a chemical plant, a furniture factory and a farm
15:12:56  <ZirconiumX> all the more better
15:13:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not really the "finishing" guy...
15:13:33  <kamnet> I've got 5 tiles right next to the farm where I could squeeze one in, but then the train has to go on a two-tile incline to get out of the valley
15:13:38  <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm not here either...
15:13:44  <frosch123> well.. you can play with that diff, but the first user will file a bug report about the news message :)
15:14:11  <kamnet> And then 8 tiles away from there I have another 5-tile space where I can put a loader, but the train has to climb a two-tile incline to get to it
15:14:34  <kamnet> But 20 tiles away it's plenty of level land
15:15:04  <ZirconiumX> add 2 locos
15:15:58  <Chris_Booth> or buy more powerful locos or flatern the land
15:16:09  <Chris_Booth> or turn on realistic acceleration if it is off
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15:17:04  <kamnet> Or I could use industrial trams to get it out of the valley...
15:18:14  <ZirconiumX> using transfer, you can lose some money
15:18:38  <kamnet> I'm playing more for looks than profit.
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15:19:12  <ZirconiumX> getting round the mountain will certainly be realistic
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15:21:37  <dihedral> why people do not get that 'realistic' does not exist in OpenTTD
15:21:56  <kamnet> Or I can... dynamite this steel mill that's in a place where I'll never be able to realistically get metal to, re-route a roadway and then be able to find space to put my loader and run my rail lines.
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15:35:42  <kamnet> 100% realism doesn't exist, but "more realistic" certainly isn't out of the question
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15:36:51  <kamnet> Of course if I wanted to be more realistic then I'd just build rails all over the place like they do in real life and not give any concern to the environment :D
15:36:52  <planetmaker> but 'more realistic' is not a design goal. Only 'more fun' or 'easier to understand'
15:37:11  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21803 /trunk/src/ (13 files in 3 dirs): -Cleanup: Remove unnecessary semicolons.
15:37:36  <kamnet> As a design for the game mechanics itself, no. But for game play, it's realistic.
15:38:05  <Zuu> kamnet: By the way your music pack is really nice :-)
15:38:21  <kamnet> Well, don't thank me, thank Scott Joplin... well, if he was living.
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15:50:11  <DanMacK> Hey all
15:50:18  *** luckz [~lkz@luckz.de] has joined #openttd
15:50:32  <kamnet> Hey hey
15:51:29  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r21804 /trunk/src/ (console_cmds.cpp vehicle.cpp vehicle_func.h): -Remove [FS#4409]: the 'stopall' console command, as its functionality was broken. Group start/stop commands can be used instead
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15:58:16  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21805 /trunk/src/ (dock_gui.cpp table/sprites.h): -Codechange: Correct a typo.
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16:08:40  <dihedral> if you ask me, 'more realistic' is silly, as a game defines it's own 'realism'
16:09:34  <dihedral> 'building realisticly' is merely a way to describe what one favours
16:16:38  <frosch123> how does dihedralish building look like?
16:16:54  <Terkhen> it look dihedralish
16:16:59  <frosch123> or dihedralic?
16:17:57  <Prof_Frink> Dihydraulic?
16:17:58  <Terkhen> dihedralistic
16:18:31  <Rubidium> frosch123: two "towers" with the same base on a diverging path?
16:19:26  <Terkhen> :D
16:20:42  <frosch123> sounds dangerous
16:24:01  <Terkhen> http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/patches/index.php?source=buoy_typo.diff <--- should I avoid changing ancient changelogs?
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16:24:07  <Rubidium> http://www.faqs.org/photo-dict/photofiles/list/3161/13279suspension_bridge.jpg <- you might classify that as an upside down dihedral
16:24:24  <frosch123> Terkhen: they were changed numerous times
16:24:29  <Rubidium> Terkhen: nah, I fix typos and such in the changelog all the time
16:24:32  <Terkhen> ok :)
16:26:23  <dihedral> upside down dihedral?
16:26:30  <dihedral> are you referring to an 'anhedral' :-P
16:27:13  <Rubidium> pff... ;)
16:27:19  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21806 /trunk/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Correct additional appearances of the same typo.
16:27:48  <Rubidium> I seem to remember seeing a dihedral bridge, just can't remember where
16:29:15  <dihedral> you can see dihedrals all over the place
16:29:20  <dihedral> esp in aerospace :-)
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16:31:05  <dihedral> welcome Adambean
16:31:15  <Adambean> hi
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16:36:54  <dihedral> what linux tool do people in this channel use for backup
16:37:47  <Rubidium> dihedral: "Only wimps use tape backup: real men just upload their important stuff on ftp, and let the rest of the world mirror it ;)"
16:38:02  <dihedral> lol
16:38:12  <dihedral> i have a tape drive :-D
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16:38:31  <dihedral> but i do not use it currently
16:38:49  <Rubidium> though... rsync
16:39:00  <planetmaker> dihedral: a custom-written shell script with tar and cp works wonders - called via crontab
16:39:18  <dihedral> i have no crontab on my laptop :-)
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16:54:21  <fjb> dihedral: dump and restore.
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16:57:01  <dihedral> i should add, mounted filesystem :-P
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16:59:46  <dihedral> for dump / restore or dd i could always boot from another medium - but i'd like to avoid having to boot something other than the currently running system
17:01:46  <Zuu> hmm, when I've joined a MP game using beta3, I can't see the GRF parameters of eg. BaseCosts Mod.
17:02:17  <Zuu> Shouldn't I be able to have read access to them trough the NewGRF dialog?
17:04:17  <dihedral> heh
17:06:28  <Zuu> By the look of the railways on the #openttdcoop welcome server it looks like terraforming is expansive. :-)
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17:07:40  <Alberth> yeah, expanding dirt costs money
17:08:53  <planetmaker> Zuu: give it a shot. But: yes. And that's not the only expensive thing there ;-)
17:10:51  <planetmaker> Zuu: yes, the parameter view is problematic, I agree. You could give http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/show_param.diff a shot - but I'm not satisfied with it yet
17:13:27  <planetmaker> and... actually I wanted to ask Alberth for advice there... ^
17:13:56  <planetmaker> I fail to disable the widgets in the parameter window, it seems I'm missing something obvious. But... where?
17:14:20  <Zuu> At first glance the code looked good to me, but aparently there is some issues.
17:15:36  <planetmaker> well. The widget disabled state doesn't show. Which I'd like to see added before I commit it
17:15:59  <planetmaker> i.e. all widgets should show as disabled in the parameter window when showing without edit rights
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17:16:04  <Zuu> Hmm, I don't see you setting the widget disabled state in the constructor.
17:16:18  <Zuu> based on the "enabled" member.
17:16:38  <Zuu> But I have so far only read the patch, not applied it to trunk.
17:17:32  <planetmaker> well, yes, the patch does not contain anything in that respect now. As it failed to work whereever I tried to add it. The most ovious place to me is "OnInvalidateData"
17:18:34  <Alberth> does   this->SetWidgetDirty(GRFPAR_WIDGET_NUMPAR_DEC); this->SetWidgetDirty(..._INC);    help?
17:19:34  <Zuu> But the code in OnInvalidateData only runs if action 14 is not present. So if you have action14 present, the code will not run.
17:20:30  <Alberth> OnInvalidateData() is used for notifying changes while the window is open, does 'edit' change?
17:20:48  <planetmaker> no, it doesn't change.
17:21:18  * Alberth looks for a place to apply the patch
17:21:58  <planetmaker> There's no InvalidateData function - which is called on init.
17:22:01  <Zuu> btw, is the patch for any specific revision or is simply last revision good enough?
17:22:10  <planetmaker> maybe I need to define that
17:22:14  <planetmaker> Zuu: works for trunk here
17:22:28  <Alberth> 'trunk' is normally last revision
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17:36:26  <Alberth> 'show parameters' in the newgrf gui also doesn't seem to be disabled when no newgrf is selected
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17:36:45  <planetmaker> yes
17:36:51  <planetmaker> for similar reasons
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17:48:01  <Zuu> As for the record, visual studio fails to compile current trunk + the show_params patch.
17:48:13  <planetmaker> oh?
17:49:56  <Zuu> Compile log: http://pastebin.com/scZSFkay
17:50:20  <__ln__> I see only linking errors.
17:50:31  <Zuu> Yes
17:50:45  <Zuu> And they don't even look related to the patch.
17:51:16  <Zuu> I would suspect a new essential pack, but I've already upgraded to 4.0.
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17:51:35  <Rubidium> did you recently update some libraries or something?
17:52:15  <planetmaker> doesn't look related indeed
17:52:21  <Zuu> No. But it was quite some time since last I compiled OpenTTD.
17:52:31  <planetmaker> he
17:52:47  <Rubidium> in any case, lets see what my MSVC says about it
17:52:54  <Rubidium> (without patch)
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17:54:05  <Zuu> ... recompiling without patch ..
17:54:59  <fjb> "<dihedral> i should add, mounted filesystem :-P" <- dump -L (live file system) on FreeBSD
17:55:35  <Rubidium> without patch it compiles fine
17:56:07  <dihedral> fjb, dumping with dump or dd on a mounted partition / disk is idiotic!!
17:56:27  <fjb> Why is it idiotic?
17:56:44  <Terkhen> I can compile trunk fine with MSVC 2010 too
17:56:48  <Eddi|zuHause> <dihedral> i have no crontab on my laptop :-) <-- init scripts work as well... can decide whether run on startup or on shutdown
17:56:56  <planetmaker> I don't think the patch causes trouble
17:57:07  <Zuu> I get linking errors also without patch, so I guess my building environment is broken for OpenTTD at the moment.
17:57:18  <Rubidium> just rebuild the whole project first ;)
17:58:16  <dihedral> fjb, you do understand how these things work, right?
17:58:18  <planetmaker> But I'm still lost, why setting the disabled state in OnInvalidateData has no effect... - it's called in both, NewGRFGUI as well as parameter window in the constructor.
17:58:41  <fjb> dihedral: I do. Do you? So why is it idiotic?
17:59:02  <andythenorth> the paddle steamer is modelled from this (but with two funnels) http://lh5.ggpht.com/_7Y1_ca7A9ew/SlEVHH9bN9I/AAAAAAAACW8/59VHJ7g-zss/DSC00378.JPG
17:59:02  <dihedral> because there is a large risk of data loss
17:59:27  <dihedral> where 'large' is relative to the purpose of creating such a disk image
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18:00:18  <fjb> dihedral: There is no risk, because dump -L takes a file system snapshot first and dumps that snapshot.
18:00:21  <dihedral> the possibiliy of one app writing to the disk and nother app trying to read block for block and making an exact copy of the drive ...
18:00:47  <dihedral> oh my word :-P
18:00:51  <Alberth> planetmaker: why are there two SNGRFS_SET_PARAMETERS widgets?
18:01:00  <dihedral> fjb, thank you for your hint, and no think you ;-)
18:01:23  <Rubidium> the close button doesn't seem to work either
18:01:24  <fjb> dihedral: So no risk but clever tool.
18:01:26  <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: file system snapshots don't tend to fit into any kind of memory
18:02:03  <Rubidium> planetmaker: the "Remove" button has become some 50% bigger as well
18:02:04  <Alberth> just make enough swap :)
18:02:14  <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: The snapshot resides on disk. Changed sectors get new allocated.
18:02:25  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: copy-on-write
18:03:59  <planetmaker> hm, two?  they are in one version or the other of the window. Can't I do that?
18:04:20  <planetmaker> the other widgets seem to follow that, too. Or... did I mess that up?
18:04:45  <Alberth> afaik always all parts get loaded.
18:05:32  <planetmaker> Hm... then that might explain one thing
18:05:47  <Alberth> rendering follows the tree, while widget-accessing directly follows an array with pointers
18:06:07  <Zuu> Rubidium: Full recompile solved the issue. Thanks.
18:06:08  <Alberth> so the array should contain a hidden widget :)
18:06:26  <Zuu> Now if only generating the release exe file could complete as well :-D
18:06:45  <Rubidium> yeah, LTO takes long
18:06:47  <Alberth> the debug version is ebough :)
18:06:51  <Alberth> *enough
18:06:51  <Rubidium> but that's why it's LTO
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18:07:34  <Zuu> For this patch I guess using a debug build is fast enough.
18:08:55  <planetmaker> that seems to go probably a long way, Alberth :-)
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18:14:41  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21807 /trunk/src/ (vehicle.cpp vehicle_base.h): -Codechange: split automatic order removal into a separate function (fonsinchen)
18:16:21  <Eddi|zuHause> what's the meaning of "Plan: normal" in "svn info"?
18:16:58  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21808 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix: don't create automatic orders when there are no manual orders (fonsinchen)
18:17:21  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: plan?
18:17:33  <Rubidium> did you try to translate something back to English?
18:17:45  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: no, this is the german text
18:18:22  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: http://svn.haxx.se/users/archive-2004-12/0659.shtml ?
18:19:14  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: aha.
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18:19:18  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21809 /trunk/src/ (order_cmd.cpp vehicle.cpp): -Fix [FS#4404]: remove unreached automatic orders as well when reaching an ordered waypoint or depot (fonsinchen)
18:19:56  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but i never noticed this entry before
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18:39:46  <peter1138> quick check
18:40:10  <peter1138> if i do fopen(file, "w") then fclose right after it
18:40:23  <peter1138> i'll get a 0 byte file, right?
18:40:44  <Rubidium> I'd expect that to happen
18:40:45  <Alberth> yes
18:42:16  <Zuu> planetmaker: I also noticed that the SHow Parameters button only work in loaded games, not from the load dialog.
18:42:46  <planetmaker> ho. I'll look at that, too. Thanks
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18:45:32  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r21810 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
18:45:32  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:32  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: croatian - 2 changes by VoyagerOne
18:45:32  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: estonian - 2 changes by notAbot
18:45:32  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: italian - 2 changes by lorenzodv
18:45:34  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: serbian - 4 changes by etran
18:45:34  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: spanish - 3 changes by Terkhen
18:46:54  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21811 /trunk/src/lang/croatian.txt: -Fix: guess what...
18:50:12  <peter1138> thanks
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19:45:24  <andythenorth> Terkhen: articulated ships?
19:45:27  <andythenorth> :P
19:46:19  <kamnet> tugboats!
19:47:31  <V453000> flying ships?
19:47:39  <V453000> wait airships are already there :(
19:48:13  <kamnet> If we ever get NewGRF Airports then we could possibly get ships that land on water
19:48:23  <kamnet> planes that land on water, even
19:49:35  <__ln__> how can i build an airship?
19:49:49  <planetmaker> called plimp? In a hangar.
19:49:50  <planetmaker> :-P
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19:50:10  <Eddi|zuHause> you can't build airships in the game. you can only buy vehicles, not build them
19:50:24  <__ln__> fine, how do i buy one?
19:50:41  <Eddi|zuHause> unless you make an object/station grf with a stationary airship
19:50:43  <kamnet> build an airport, click on the hangar at the airport
19:51:04  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: av8 should have them
19:53:22  <__ln__> testing
19:55:17  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r21812 /trunk/src/widget.cpp: -Fix (r21754): Don't try to scroll the matrix widget to position -1.
19:57:15  <__ln__> ok, there it flies
19:57:27  <Eddi|zuHause> wrong
19:57:30  <Eddi|zuHause> it floats
19:57:50  <__ln__> ah
19:58:10  <__ln__> wasn't available if starting year was set to 1992, though
19:59:00  <Eddi|zuHause> commercial airship travel stopped around 1942 or so
19:59:49  <DanMacK> You're using Aviator's aircraft set I assume?
20:00:43  <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: then why is Concorde still there if i set the year to 2010...
20:00:45  <__ln__> DanMacK: yes
20:01:17  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: ask that the author
20:01:56  <DanMacK> it may be a carry-over.  It should be gone by '06 but might hang aropund a bit longer
20:02:22  <__ln__> commercial concorde flights ended in 2000.
20:02:40  <DanMacK> they did...  but TTD isn't exactly RL ;)
20:04:48  <__ln__> i witnessed a genuine zeppelin in the sky something like six years ago.
20:05:21  <Eddi|zuHause> most airships nowadays are blimps rather than zeppelins
20:06:20  <Eddi|zuHause> the difference being that blimps have an inflatable hull, while zeppelins have a fixed hull
20:06:37  <Eddi|zuHause> blimps are basically powered balloons
20:07:59  <__ln__> can't tell which one it was, but it was manufactured by Zeppelin
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20:14:58  <__ln__> Terkhen: as i look at spanish.txt, i'm seeing dozens of sentences ending with '!' but not having a corresponding '¡' in the begin.
20:15:27  <Terkhen> andythenorth: that's complicated :P
20:15:53  <Terkhen> __ln__: good point, we omit the ¡ so frequently that I'm used to ignoring it
20:16:43  <Terkhen> I'll review them later
20:17:32  <__ln__> thanks
20:18:44  <Terkhen> thanks for telling me :)
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20:21:22  <andythenorth> Terkhen: is it more complicated than the bazillion copy-and-paste operations I have to do to make tow boats + barges in photoshop?
20:21:41  <andythenorth> :P
20:21:48  <Terkhen> I don't know, I'm happily ignorant of how complicated that is
20:21:51  <andythenorth> he
20:21:56  <andythenorth> it's not complicated
20:22:01  <andythenorth> it's just pointlessly boring
20:22:04  <Terkhen> but it is probably more tedious :P
20:22:19  <andythenorth> at least coding is a bit interesting
20:23:28  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21813 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4411](r21720): Prevent crash when displaying the owner view.
20:23:34  <Terkhen> ^ except when you break stuff
20:23:43  <andythenorth> extra interesting then
20:24:24  <Terkhen> at this pace, I'm going to commit more fixes to r21720 than anything else
20:25:30  <Eddi|zuHause> new meaning of "commit early, commit often" :p
20:26:26  <Terkhen> :P
20:34:00  <Eddi|zuHause> # Well it's gonna be different now that I'm gone
20:34:02  <Eddi|zuHause> # To shot some aliens for kingdom and glory
20:34:03  <Eddi|zuHause> # For welfare and for life itself
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20:38:20  * andythenorth observes a small problem with canal
20:38:27  <andythenorth> the boat is drawn over the fences
20:38:36  <andythenorth> this is a bit wrong :P
20:40:05  <SmatZ> FS#119
20:41:32  <__ln__> np: Leonard Nimoy - Ballad of Bilbo Baggins
20:42:11  <andythenorth> so the canal 'bank' sprite is drawn behind the boat
20:42:21  <andythenorth> even though it is a separate sprite
20:42:45  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: not particularly the best piece of music on the planet :p
20:42:59  <andythenorth> or am I wrong :P
20:43:06  * andythenorth looks for canal sprites
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20:43:58  <andythenorth> hmm
20:44:04  <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: at least he sings, unlike Shatner on the same disc. :)
20:44:05  * andythenorth wonders how the sprite sorter works
20:44:11  * andythenorth will regret this :(
20:45:24  <SmatZ> yup
20:45:49  <__ln__> np: William Shatner - Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds
20:46:13  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: the strange thing is, although i have heard nimoy sing this in the past, i can't remember how it sounded. when i try to think about it, it sounds more like rudi carell
20:47:46  <Eddi|zuHause> (rudi carell is some weird dutch guy who somehow made it to fame on german television as singer/comedian)
20:47:51  <Terkhen> I have only heard him in the simpsons, and dubbed
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20:50:38  <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: apart from that song, i only heard nimoys real voice on fringe
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20:56:18  <__ln__> he's on fringe?
20:59:16  * andythenorth ponders
20:59:26  <andythenorth> there's no way to keep wide ships out of canals :|
20:59:33  <andythenorth> eeees a problem
20:59:59  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: yeah, like three episodes or so
21:03:00  <Wolf01> uhm, waypoints don't show the selection toolbar
21:09:28  <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: i'm still at s01e05 or something, should watch more.
21:09:45  <andythenorth> if someone produces alternate canal graphics that are narrower than ttd / opengfx, they're dumb yes/no?
21:11:47  <Rubidium> I'd say they're not dumb, after all they managed to create a NewGRF which is probably a measure to tell someone is not dumb
21:12:27  <Rubidium> though I see no problems with narrower (canal graphics)
21:12:40  <Rubidium> (narrower canal) graphics might be a problem though
21:13:51  <Rubidium> Lakie: what bit 4 were you talking about exactly?
21:14:02  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r21814 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Fix/Add: Check GRF version from action 8, and disallow usage of GRFs with versions above 7.
21:14:07  <andythenorth> let me put it differently :)
21:14:29  <andythenorth> canals which are not as wide are an instant problem w.r.t to boats in FISH
21:14:40  <andythenorth> so I'm choosing not to worry about that :)
21:15:57  <Lakie> cb157, var 10?
21:16:14  <Rubidium> that contains the tile slope
21:16:29  <Lakie> Aye, bit 4 being steep.
21:16:46  <Rubidium> hmm, yeah I guess so
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21:18:14  <Lakie> Its ok, wally pointed out that if one has a cb157 which just returns ok, you can build on steep slopes, so I presumed that bit would need to be in the var
21:18:27  <andythenorth> just like real life, turns out locks are really the limiting factor on ship size :P
21:18:37  <andythenorth> so at last, the game is realistic :P
21:20:05  <Lakie> I don't mind that so much, so I just cloned the behaviour.
21:21:21  <Lakie> (bit 4 would have already been past in ttdpatch anyway)
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22:41:07  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21815 /trunk/src/pathfinder/yapf/yapf_costrail.hpp: -Fix [FS#3908]: [YAPF] Apply a pathfinder penalty for back of one-way path signals so those aren't preferred over other possibilities
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22:51:02  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r21816 /trunk/ (known-bugs.txt src/rail_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#4378] (r14012): Allow dragging of combo signals (again)
23:00:37  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:24:08  <Terkhen> good night
23:25:16  *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fc6be.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:30:09  *** xiong [~xiong@netblock-72-25-106-147.dslextreme.com] has joined #openttd
23:30:33  <dihedral> @logs
23:30:33  <DorpsGek> dihedral: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
23:34:42  *** DDR [~DDR@66.183.113.224] has joined #openttd
23:40:07  <dihedral> /*grf_version < 2 || */grf_version > 7 <- what does version 2 and 7 define?
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23:51:32  <__ln__> has anyone felt lately that in the Mac version both the system mouse cursor and the OTTD's own are visible at the same time?
23:55:39  *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AFA0AD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
23:59:37  <Eddi|zuHause> isn't that one of the known bugs?

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