Log for #openttd on 22nd January 2011:
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00:02:43  <Terkhen> good night
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00:21:01  <__ln__> AFK|lightekk: no public aways, please
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00:43:54  <DJNekkid> if anyone might care:
00:44:01  <DJNekkid> ('finished' nutracks)
00:44:15  <DJNekkid> ./</shameless self-add>
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00:47:25  <SmatZ> :-)
00:48:00  <FauxFaux> NutRacks sounds like a very painful torture device.
00:48:09  <Pulec> good ad
00:48:20  <Pulec> any videos to explain to super stupid?
00:49:04  <Pulec> forget it i dont wanna know :D
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05:46:52  <xb>
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07:33:27  <dihedral> <- lol
07:33:33  <dihedral> good morning
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08:09:45  <Terkhen> good morning
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08:28:32  * andythenorth wonders how planes choose different sprites for take off / level flight
08:29:05  <andythenorth> can't see any special action 3 handling in the spec
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08:36:33  <dihedral> you could check how its done in av8
08:38:05  <andythenorth> ho
08:38:14  <andythenorth> I'll just invent something - this is for ships anyway :)
08:38:35  <dihedral> i did not know they fly
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08:42:24  <andythenorth> dihedral: hydrofoils ;)
08:42:37  <andythenorth> I guess it is actually flying of a sort
08:45:13  <andythenorth> hydrofoils should 'taxi' as they get close to a dock :P
08:45:17  <andythenorth> state machine...
08:48:36  <andythenorth> someone should have cookies for design of standard action 1 / 2 /3
08:50:34  <dihedral> either that - or you define them as planes which need special airports / runways :-)
08:50:53  <andythenorth> water planes?
08:50:55  <andythenorth> hmm
08:50:56  <andythenorth> could work
08:51:02  <andythenorth> they might fly a bit high...
08:52:04  <dihedral> hehe
08:52:13  <dihedral> yes and they could then fly over land too :-P
08:52:33  <andythenorth> maybe hovercraft should be planes :P
08:52:53  <andythenorth> but with a new cb to specify altitude
08:53:02  * andythenorth ponders reading plane code
08:53:26  <dihedral> nah - making them planes is not correct ;-)
08:53:44  <dihedral> you'd lave at seeing a hydrofoil passing over houses :-P
08:59:07  <andythenorth> grr
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08:59:25  <andythenorth> B4	W	Current speed (note, units different for each vehicle type)
08:59:39  <andythenorth> how the units are different is not explained :D
08:59:49  <Alberth> moin
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09:01:04  <andythenorth> hi Alberth
09:07:32  <andythenorth> ships need realistic acceleration option :P
09:07:40  <andythenorth> Terkhen: :D ^
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09:36:48  <Wolf01> hello
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09:53:44  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21886 /trunk/src/ (33 files in 6 dirs): -Codechange: move documentation towards the code to make it more likely to be updated [n].
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10:11:06  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21887 /trunk/src/ (network/core/tcp_admin.h newgrf_industrytiles.h road_gui.h): -Fix-ish: some headers weren't including the headers they depend on
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10:33:30  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21888 /trunk/src/ai/ (64 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: remove some unneeded (for the AI header) headers from some AI headers, reducing the include tree
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10:44:07  <planetmaker> good day
10:45:18  <Terkhen> hello planetmaker
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10:53:41  <Zuu> hello
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11:07:48  <TheDirtyOne> 0hai.
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11:12:48  <Alberth> hi
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11:16:27  <TheDirtyOne> why does OTTD look for the config and content at my documents?
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11:18:20  <TheDirtyOne> so for valid installation I do this: Unpack OTTD to the folder in my documents tat it wants to use, unpack the opengfx to data.
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11:20:39  <Terkhen> it looks at another places too, check the readme
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11:21:12  <Terkhen> and OpenTTD can be unpacked anywhere, it does not need to be at that folder
11:25:52  <TheDirtyOne> it checks at its install place, but prioritizes my documents and creates the config there
11:27:07  <Alberth> it has to create the config someplace
11:27:28  <TheDirtyOne> so why does it create it into documents, not into itself?
11:27:40  <Alberth> but read the readme, it has detailed explanations on what it all does
11:28:17  <Alberth> I guess becauses of shared installs
11:28:26  <TheDirtyOne> and there's one more weirdness - sound/music
11:29:21  <TheDirtyOne> ottd with legacy pack (full with sfx) takes the same space as openttd with opengfx alone
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11:37:00  <Terkhen> TheDirtyOne: the installer is not intended for creating portable installations
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11:37:33  <Terkhen> download the zip archive and use its own data folder if you want to have everything in the same folder
11:38:06  <Terkhen> but IMO having them in the My documents folders is more useful, then you don't lose your data and savegames if you reinstall
11:42:04  <TheDirtyOne> Terkhen: zip tries that too.
11:42:32  <Terkhen> you need an openttd.cfg file there too
11:43:00  <Terkhen> as I said, check the readme
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11:43:38  <TheDirtyOne> zip just lacks the cfg
11:44:00  <TheDirtyOne> just one empty file with .cfg extension.
11:44:11  <Alberth> no, otherwise it would overwrite an existing cfg
11:44:17  <Alberth> and it gets created anyway
11:44:43  <TheDirtyOne> it gets created in documents automatically
11:45:34  <TheDirtyOne> is there a switch to make it into exe's folder?
11:45:34  <Terkhen> meh
11:45:50  <Terkhen> believe me, it's all explained in the readme
11:47:14  <TheDirtyOne> oh, 1.05 got rid of this - files get found even with an outside cfg
11:50:24  <Alberth> way way before that version already, actually, afaik
11:53:25  <TheDirtyOne> and why are there 2 music files in content system?
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11:53:44  <TheDirtyOne> openmsx and anthology-something
11:53:45  <Alberth> so you have a choice
11:54:26  <TheDirtyOne> is OTTD compatible with patched MIDIs?
11:55:19  <planetmaker> depends upon what you call a 'patched midi'
11:55:32  <TheDirtyOne> FeelSound patching
12:00:48  <TheDirtyOne> MIDIs fixed by instrument swapping and patched with FeelSound using PSMPlayer -
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12:03:05  <TheDirtyOne> fixing might be needed for MIDIs with bad instrument codes, and so on...
12:03:42  <planetmaker> Should work to just modify an existing midi
12:03:46  <Alberth> I have no clue at all what that means
12:05:12  <TheDirtyOne> planetmaker: PSMPlayer makes fixing/feelsound patching easy
12:05:45  <planetmaker> I've not heart of any of those tools, sorry
12:06:03  <TheDirtyOne> I managed, over chat, to guide one person to fixing the MIDI file that was causing MIDI library misinterpreting instruments.
12:06:18  <TheDirtyOne> Just get PSMPlayer - it's very small.
12:06:25  <TheDirtyOne>
12:08:14  <Alberth> we have had enough commercials now, thank you
12:10:06  <planetmaker> oh no. definitely not. and not for my OS
12:10:39  <TheDirtyOne> it's not advertising. It's a win32 app to work with MIDIs.
12:12:07  <planetmaker> see. the point. Nothing which is remotely usable for me
12:12:11  <Alberth> whatever, nobody is interested
12:12:16  <Terkhen> ^
12:12:46  * TheDirtyOne is a sick, mindless fatty that plays random games and is always full of weird//stupid questions...
12:13:02  * TheDirtyOne explodes
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12:14:00  <Terkhen> explodes == never will come back?
12:14:44  <Alberth> don't get your hopes up too much :)
12:15:00  <Terkhen> :D
12:15:33  <planetmaker> :-D
12:19:48  <andythenorth> anyone playing FIRS?
12:19:55  <andythenorth> I am wondering what to work on
12:22:55  <Alberth> so many projects, and still out of ideas :)
12:22:58  <Terkhen> I have not played FIRS in a long time
12:23:19  <andythenorth> Alberth: you're out of ideas or me?
12:23:33  <Alberth> hmm, perhaps it is time to try playing FIRS again
12:23:39  <Alberth> andythenorth: I meant you
12:23:42  <andythenorth> he
12:23:44  <andythenorth> I have ideas
12:23:55  <andythenorth> what I don't have is an easy way to prioritise :)
12:24:04  <andythenorth> I did have DanMacK sending me sprites for a bit
12:24:10  <andythenorth> that set a direction for FISH
12:24:24  <andythenorth> but he's not here today ;)
12:25:05  <Terkhen> :)
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12:36:28  <Razmir> just for your interest, monorails should be available since year 1909 :)
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12:45:05  <andythenorth>
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13:18:28  <ZirconiumX> I think BR had a maglev prototype - around 1970
13:23:26  <frosch123> yeah, ottd should also have an option to waste lots of money into researching prototypes which will never become available
13:23:53  <ZirconiumX> "I had a million - but now I don't..."
13:23:59  <ZirconiumX> "Why"
13:24:51  <ZirconiumX> "I spent it on ill-fated prototypes - and now everyone hates me for spending their money..."
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13:37:38  <andythenorth> wallyweb has got a bit excited about electricity :o
13:38:06  <andythenorth> a power circuit is just a lot of little men passing buckets of charge to each other yes / no?
13:38:12  <andythenorth> that's what we drew in school anyway :P
13:42:15  <__ln__> i don't think such a fundamental phenomenon of physics could have changed since you were in school. (whenever that was)
13:43:33  <Alberth> except it are actually 'holes' that move from+ to - :)
13:43:59  <Alberth> (or electrons that move from - to +)
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13:44:56  <andythenorth> adding an actual electrical grid seems somewhat overkill
13:46:16  <andythenorth> however....if the map could handle storing point values of arbitrary properties like charge....
13:46:34  <andythenorth> ...then a 'proper' spot price economy would also be possible
13:47:45  <Alberth> I fail to see the point of it all, play simcity instead would be much easier
13:48:04  <andythenorth> everyone has their pet project :D
13:48:12  <andythenorth> mine is roadtypes :P
13:49:26  <andythenorth> and also rv-wagons
13:56:43  <andythenorth> Terkhen:
14:00:44  <devilsadvocate> you could model it as something that satisfies poisson's equation
14:01:29  <devilsadvocate> put in sources at power plants, sinks at usage points, and then charge people based on 'availability' at that specific point
14:02:00  <devilsadvocate> of course, that way, you can end up 'using' more than you produce
14:02:37  <devilsadvocate> but solving actual power flow equations would be a big more ugly
14:09:57  <Terkhen> andythenorth: how do you enable CB1D?
14:11:22  <Rubidium> Alberth: we already had the idea to have a cargo "electrons", so you ship 1 ton of electrons per train or something ;)
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14:15:36  <andythenorth> Terkhen: I was going to say extend prop 17
14:15:37  <andythenorth>
14:15:45  <andythenorth> but if it's a byte, it's full :P
14:15:53  <Alberth> in fact, we are already shipping electrons in toyland batteries
14:16:22  <andythenorth> Terkhen: we could abuse prop
14:16:25  <andythenorth> 1C
14:16:38  <andythenorth> or a new action 0 prop is needed
14:16:55  <frosch123> if trains have no flag for 1d, rv should not have one either
14:17:01  <andythenorth> hmm
14:17:03  <Terkhen> using 17 would be the most desirable option, yes
14:17:15  <andythenorth> frosch123: that presents an interesting conundrum
14:17:31  <Terkhen> yes, as it makes sense that the default behaviour is identical to what we have now
14:17:31  <andythenorth> that means either all RVs become attachable, or none
14:17:59  <frosch123> "none" of course?
14:18:21  <andythenorth> so every single vehicle that is attachable has to explicitly handle cb 1D?
14:18:30  <andythenorth> bleargh
14:18:41  <frosch123> just as every train vehicle which is not attachable, right?
14:18:49  <Terkhen> but wouldn't that make handling of the CB different between trains and road vehicles?
14:19:07  <andythenorth> frosch123: train vehicles are attachable by default though?
14:19:15  <andythenorth> so the inverse :)
14:19:30  <frosch123> Terkhen: usually "failed callback" is defines as "default behaviour as if the cb was not enabled"
14:19:35  * andythenorth wonders what fraction of road vehicles *should* be attachable
14:19:44  <frosch123> so, it is perfectly fine, if failed cb means different things for trains and rv
14:19:53  <andythenorth> buses generally probably aren't attachable
14:19:55  <Terkhen> yes, that's what I meant
14:20:00  <andythenorth> trucks don't attach to each other
14:20:10  <Terkhen> I guess they would only differ on the handling of "failed cb"
14:20:12  <andythenorth> so basically trailers would need to handle CB1D to become trailers
14:20:18  <Terkhen> andythenorth: none by default
14:20:25  <frosch123> in fact, it would be uncommon if failing cb 1d for rv would allow attaching
14:20:33  <andythenorth> ok
14:20:44  <andythenorth> do it the other way - explicitly enable attaching
14:20:45  <andythenorth> fail by default
14:21:19  <frosch123> andythenorth: actually i see no point in generally allowing any attaching
14:21:28  <frosch123> that would allow attaching a bus to a truck engine
14:21:38  <andythenorth> yes
14:22:18  <frosch123> just take a look at the tons of complains, that trains allow attaching wagons from other grfs
14:22:29  <Terkhen> my preference for adding a callback flag was for not handling the CB1D differently, but I don't really mind if it is only the failed cb result
14:22:45  <frosch123> if rv engines allow attaching busses from other sets, that will certainly cause a lot of trouble
14:22:46  <andythenorth> frosch123  there are probably as many complaints the other way? :P
14:22:50  <andythenorth> anyway, I'm convinced
14:22:53  <andythenorth> by your argument
14:23:16  <andythenorth> so I should change the spec - default is to fail with the default message
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14:24:27  <frosch123> not sure. i guess there is some difference between attaching rvs and trains
14:25:01  <frosch123> while you can attach most rv wagons to any rv which can accept some wagon, you usually cannot attach multiple rv engines
14:25:24  <andythenorth> I think that would have to be handled by the newgrf author
14:25:31  <frosch123> just because your truck can pull any trailer, it cannot pull every engine
14:25:55  <andythenorth>
14:26:12  <frosch123> so, maybe multiheaded-compatible could be a misc flag for rv
14:26:27  <frosch123> i.e. most engines can only be put at the front, not as secondary engines
14:26:35  <andythenorth> I can think of edge cases where multi-headed RVs are desirable
14:26:40  <andythenorth> but they are definitely non-standard
14:27:03  <Terkhen> IIRC for starters we were going to disallow all multiheaded
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14:27:13  <Terkhen> introducing a flag latter for those special cases would make sense
14:28:45  <andythenorth> really we could live without them
14:29:16  <andythenorth> Terkhen: don't we need to disallow them under the current RV acceleration model?
14:29:22  <andythenorth> RVs can't have powered trailing vehicles yes / no?
14:29:51  <Terkhen> I don't remember how is that handled, but since the code between trains and road vehicles is unified the change required should be minimal
14:30:11  <frosch123> andythenorth: articulated parts are never powered for consistency
14:30:20  <frosch123> that does not hold for separately attached things
14:30:29  <andythenorth> ok
14:30:45  <andythenorth> but would there be any harm in the spec saying "'Engines' cannot be attached as trailing vehicles. "
14:30:49  <andythenorth> ?
14:31:13  <frosch123> i guess not
14:31:34  <devilsadvocate> in RV, you mean?
14:31:36  <frosch123> am i right, that multiheaded rv usually consist of the same type of engine, i.e. are more like multiple-unit trains?
14:31:36  <andythenorth> means I can't add multiple bulldozers to a consist :P
14:31:55  <frosch123> and train MUs are not done via attaching multiple engines these days
14:32:04  <andythenorth> frosch123: multi-headed RVs are basically some form of heavy-haulage unit
14:32:19  <andythenorth> it would be 'nice' to be able to attach them, but not necessary
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14:33:42  <andythenorth> frosch123: Terkhen i.e. I would like to include these in HEQS, which could be done as articulated RV, but much better creating a consist with attaching:
14:33:43  <andythenorth>
14:34:20  <andythenorth> another case would be this sort of heavy haul:
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14:35:27  <frosch123> <- i ike the ABNORMAAL :p
14:35:39  <Terkhen> :D
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14:37:07  <Terkhen> what about the trams? :)
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14:37:45  <andythenorth> multi-headed trams - good point
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14:38:17  <andythenorth> and also there might be a case for creating consists of PAX trams
14:38:36  <andythenorth> so if there's no implementation problem, engines should be attachable (if allowed)
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14:38:49  <andythenorth> does that need a flag on the lead vehicle, the one being attached, or both?
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14:44:26  <frosch123> andythenorth: i guess a flag for the second engine, and the usual cb for the front
14:46:04  <frosch123> wrt. trams: you do not need to attach multiple engines. isn't it more plausible than someone introduced a passenger wagon with livery override just as for trains?
14:46:29  <andythenorth> I don't know
14:46:34  <andythenorth> I don't understand livery over-rides
14:46:57  <frosch123> take a look at the train sets
14:47:01  <frosch123> e.g. 2cc
14:47:05  <andythenorth> how would I combine two articulated trams?
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14:47:16  <frosch123> they have a mu wagon which you can attach to other mu-engines
14:47:17  <maddy_> hi folks
14:47:35  <andythenorth> is the mu wagon powered?
14:47:41  <planetmaker> can be
14:47:56  <andythenorth> so do RVs need powered wagon concept?
14:47:59  <planetmaker> there's a powered wagon CB
14:48:10  <planetmaker> rv don't need that imho
14:49:27  <frosch123> afaik the wagons are not powered usually, but the engine reports different power via cb36 depending on the number of attached wagons
14:49:44  <andythenorth> I can't think of a case where it would be needed for RVs
14:50:09  <andythenorth> do PAX trams need powered wagons?
14:51:43  <frosch123> you talked about attaching multiple trams
14:51:56  <frosch123> that can be done by attaching engines, or by attaching wagons
14:51:58  <andythenorth> I think that's cleaner
14:51:59  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21889 /trunk/src/main_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4434]: crash when scrolling outside of the main window (with some video backends)
14:52:13  <andythenorth> I can't see a case for powered RV wagons using CB
14:52:17  <frosch123> andythenorth: might be, but it is not the way it is done for trains usually :)
14:52:31  <frosch123> at least in the train sets i used
14:52:35  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21890 /trunk/src/ (95 files in 10 dirs): -Cleanup: remove some unneeded includes
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14:52:42  <frosch123> maybe planetmaker knows better
14:52:44  <andythenorth> but trams != trains...
14:52:57  <frosch123> but, ottd player == ottd player
14:53:02  <planetmaker> :-P
14:53:30  <planetmaker> frosch123, I doubt that I know more about newgrfs than you ;-)
14:54:05  <frosch123> i am sure you played with more, and know whether you attach wagons or engines to mus
14:54:19  <andythenorth> frosch123: I am confused :) do you make case for or against having powered wagon cb?
14:54:22  <planetmaker> wagons are attached to mus
14:54:24  <frosch123> esp. as i dislike pax transporation and usually only do cargo
14:54:52  <frosch123> andythenorth: i am agains attaching multiple tram engines to make trams longer
14:54:53  <planetmaker> and they can have a powered wagon CB and thus provide power.
14:55:37  <andythenorth> I think it would be weird to have a 'tram' and then a 'fake tram'
14:56:01  <frosch123> andythenorth: how do you control the length of the tram?
14:56:13  <frosch123> do you attach multiple engines of each 3 articulated parts
14:56:18  <andythenorth> yes
14:56:33  <frosch123> or do you build one front, and then attach 5 wagons, which are partially powered
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14:56:55  <andythenorth> articulated trams seem like fixed units to me
14:57:18  <frosch123> the latter is done by most train sets, the former is done by e.g. the csd train set
14:57:28  <frosch123> take a look at it, i consider it crappy gameplay :)
14:57:52  <andythenorth> so powered wagon cb is needed?
14:58:00  <frosch123> you want to control the length of trams with single wagons, not in bunches of 3 parts