Config
Log for #openttd on 28th January 2011:
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01:47:13  <Eddi|zuHause> anyone crazy enough to do some python magic? i need to "fold" a list by combining 3 consecutive items into a triple, and then create a list of triples
01:47:29  <Eddi|zuHause> like [1,2,3,4,5,6] becomes [(1,2,3),(4,5,6)]
01:49:31  <Eddi|zuHause> (all that as elegant (aka functional) as possible ;))
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01:56:22  <VonWaldo> there's a subsidy to provide passenger service between to cities, but local authorities won't let me build at one of the cities. what do?
01:56:42  <Eddi|zuHause> raise the town rating
01:57:31  <VonWaldo> how?
01:58:12  <Eddi|zuHause> http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_Mechanics#Local_authority_rating
01:59:37  <VonWaldo> I shall plant trees.
02:00:09  <VonWaldo> yay it worked.
02:04:33  <VonWaldo> So, planting trees and bribing is the only way to make them happy?
02:07:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i have an intermediate solution for my above problem. if a is my list, then "zip(a[0::3],a[1::3],a[2::3])"
02:07:48  <Eddi|zuHause> bonus points for anyone coming up with a solution that only needs stating "a" once
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02:32:40  <VonWaldo> Is there a way to replace vehicles so that it saves all their orders?
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02:40:05  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
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02:40:26  <Eddi|zuHause> if you sell a vehicle and immediately buy a new one, the orders will be kept
02:40:42  <Eddi|zuHause> also, there is vehicle list -> manage list -> autoreplace
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03:16:39  <VonWaldo> When does the game end? 2050?
03:20:48  <Eddi|zuHause> the game is endless
03:21:07  <Eddi|zuHause> but in 2050 you will get shown a highscore screen
03:21:17  <Eddi|zuHause> ... i have never ever played that far
03:22:16  <Eddi|zuHause> ... it would make more sense if end year was 100 years after start year
03:22:36  <VonWaldo> oh sweet it's endless.
03:22:41  <Eddi|zuHause> TTO started in 1930 and ended in 2030. TTD started in 1950 and ended in 2050
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03:40:27  <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly is the argumentation to make a tram travelling 24km/h on straight track slow down to 17km/h in curves?
03:55:35  <Eddi|zuHause> unrelated: in the newgrf debug window of a vehicle, it should be possible to a) view the 80+ variables, and b) browse through all vehicles in the chain
03:55:47  <Eddi|zuHause> (or am i overlooking that somehow?)
04:25:55  <glx> hmm there's a variable to set in the console IIRC
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08:15:18  <Terkhen> good morning
08:16:05  <planetmaker> moin
08:16:34  <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: nothing besides that the same rule for curves applies to all road vehicles/trams
08:17:17  <Terkhen> but from my experience, people that drive *really* slow tend to drive even slower when at a curve
08:22:41  <DJNekkid> lol
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10:14:55  <Wolf01> hello
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10:16:44  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
10:17:18  <planetmaker> hullo Wolf01
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10:21:48  <Wolf01> I hate OOo :(
10:22:08  <Terkhen> which one?
10:23:03  <Wolf01> small business started to use it, now I need to figure out how to write a macro for Calc which merges 2 columns, sort it and removes duplicates
10:23:32  <Wolf01> with MSExcel I could do it in 30 minutes
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10:25:20  <planetmaker> so you hate it because you're not (yet) used to it ;-)
10:25:48  <planetmaker> MS strategy works obviously to give it away for cheap to schools and universities ;-)
10:26:25  <Noldo> in all honesty, Calc has some quirks
10:26:41  <planetmaker> in all honesty: every software has
10:26:46  <Noldo> biggest of which is that F4 doesn't do what I expect it to
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10:27:35  <Wolf01> the problem is: I don't want to reinvent the wheel, OOo is very undocumented and the official tutorials doesn't even work
10:28:46  <planetmaker> yeah. Noone gets paid to write that ;-)
10:29:17  <Wolf01> oSheets = ThisComponent.getSheets() -> getSheets() not found, it's the very first line of the tutorial, just after the declarations :(
10:31:22  <Wolf01> I don't like lock-ins, but if other softwares need to have a master in nuclear physics and telepathy (to know what devs had in mind) to be able to use them, I suggest to use MS products
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10:38:20  <fonsinchen> Rubidium: Actually you're right. The plan I had yesterday won't work out. We'd need special treatment for the vehicles that are really going to the depot right now, with no more automatic stops in between.
10:38:34  <fonsinchen> And it's not nice to move orders around all the time.
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10:39:45  <fonsinchen> The new plan is to keep all auto orders after the depot orders and fix cur_order_index to reflect that when processing the depot order.
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11:46:46  <Maluf> hi
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12:14:24  <planetmaker> hi
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12:39:54  <peter1138> anyone know if log() is expensive?
12:40:16  <peter1138> the function itself, i mean
12:42:10  <planetmaker> 20€
12:43:05  <planetmaker> what does the link say which michi gave last time?
12:43:52  <peter1138> buggered if i still have that
12:44:30  <planetmaker> logs?
12:44:36  <peter1138> i don't keep logs
12:44:52  <planetmaker> but this channel...
12:44:54  <planetmaker> @logs
12:44:54  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
12:44:54  <SmatZ> it takes about 113 ticks on an AMD64 ...
12:45:07  <SmatZ> y*log2(x)+1
12:45:11  <peter1138> basically, in an fft process
12:45:27  <peter1138> someone is doing "if (k < log(buffersize)/log(2))"
12:45:50  <peter1138> i kinda thought... "if ((1 << k) < buffersize)" would be better
12:46:00  <SmatZ> hehe :)
12:46:18  <planetmaker> probably depends on the compiler
12:46:21  <peter1138> compared to the fft, the 2 logs are nothing, i suppose
12:46:32  <peter1138> and log(2) may be optimised away, i don't know
12:46:36  <planetmaker> let's hope it's the fftw algorithm
12:46:41  <peter1138> log(buffersize) isn't though
12:47:41  <SmatZ> changing it to "if ((1 << k) < buffersize)" is worth benchmarking :)
12:47:51  <SmatZ> (apart from it being nicer)
12:48:21  <peter1138> SmatZ, in fact, the line cropped up because of a bug that turns out to be due to rounding...
12:48:47  <SmatZ> true :)
12:48:53  <peter1138> with doubles, log(2048)/log(2) isn't exactly 11
12:48:59  <peter1138> Interesting.. would you mind explaining how this can be?
12:49:00  <peter1138> How can 11-11 yield 4.80518e-16?
12:49:04  <peter1138> is what someone asked
12:49:16  <peter1138> i have pointed out that log(2048)/log(2) isn't 11 :)
12:49:47  <SmatZ> it's natural logarithm, according to man page
12:49:59  <SmatZ> which can't be represented exactly as floating point number
12:50:02  <peter1138> exactly
12:50:11  <peter1138> or rather not exactly :)
12:50:14  <SmatZ> :-)
12:50:30  <planetmaker> :-)
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12:57:01  <SmatZ> peter1138: http://www.agner.org/optimize/instruction_tables.pdf the link from michi
12:58:06  <peter1138> nothing about log
12:59:00  <peter1138> well, i'll assume it's more expensive than a shift :)
13:01:00  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a pretty safe bet :p
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13:01:46  <peter1138> not on a p4 ;)
13:12:46  <SmatZ> :D
13:17:56  <Terkhen> hmm... I need a savegame with many road vehicles but no NewGRFs at all
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13:18:38  <Terkhen> many = as near to the limit as possible
13:20:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: start an AI?
13:20:11  <SmatZ> maybe if you start AIs
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13:20:21  <Eddi|zuHause> they spam road vehicles really fast
13:20:30  <SmatZ> but then you have to kill them without resetting the company
13:20:42  <SmatZ> it can be done by removing its nut files
13:20:53  <Terkhen> since I need the savegame for profiling I would need to remove them without removing their company
13:21:08  <SmatZ> or maybe by starting the game as a server, then connecting and saving it as a client
13:21:31  <Terkhen> hmmm... I guess that the dummy AI has a negligible effect on performance
13:21:40  <SmatZ> or start 0.6 game with the old/new AI and allow building only RVs :)
13:22:01  <Terkhen> oh, good idea, I'll try that :)
13:22:07  <SmatZ> hmm but openttd will try to start random AI at its place ;(
13:22:47  <Terkhen> hmm... then there is no difference and the new AIs will build stuff faster
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13:29:27  <planetmaker> he, quite :-)
13:29:52  <planetmaker> But then, there are in the NoAI subforum quite some savegames with lots of RV from some AI tests
13:30:07  <planetmaker> though some will, of course, feature a few trains, too
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14:05:32  <Belugas> hello
14:11:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i'll reprise my request from earlier: i need a way in the newgrf debug window to inspect vehicles other than the front vehicle, and i need to see the 80+ variables.
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15:36:02  <peter1138> oh damn, somebody came up with a possibly better solution which only uses a fixed shift, although it does use an extra variable.
15:39:57  <Eddi|zuHause> logarithm laws allow for endless optimations which no compiler can ever figure out ;)
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15:41:30  <peter1138> original:   for (k = 0, le = 2; k < log(fftFrameSize)/log(2.); k++) {
15:41:39  <peter1138> my suggestion: for (k = 0, le = 2; (1 << k) < fftFrameSize; k++) {
15:41:48  <peter1138>   int m, k;
15:41:54  <peter1138> other one:  for (k = 0, m = 1; m < x; k++, m <<= 1) {
15:41:59  <peter1138> (though it's missing le = 2
15:42:24  <peter1138> )
15:42:44  <peter1138> x being fftFrameSize here
15:43:49  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, having m=2^k as loop-invariant is a cool idea
15:44:27  <Eddi|zuHause> (as long as you have plenty of registers/fast cache)
15:45:10  <planetmaker> http://www.fftw.org/ <-- do you know that page and algorithm, peter1138 ?
15:45:20  <planetmaker> as it seems you try to implement an FFT
15:46:44  <peter1138> planetmaker, it's someone else's code.
15:47:00  * frosch123 was quite disappointed when a simple fft turned out faster than my ft implementation on a gpu
15:47:11  <planetmaker> :-)
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15:47:14  <peter1138> heh
15:47:58  <planetmaker> I once needed to write a de-convolution algorithm for images... and that algorithm there indeed proved quite speedy.
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15:50:21  <peter1138> the guy with the better solution is fons adriaensen. he's a bit of a guru in audio theory and algorithms.
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17:47:33  <DJNekkid> to build openttd for linux i apparently need some video devel packagae...
17:47:35  <DJNekkid> (suse)
17:47:40  <DJNekkid> any idea what i should get?
17:47:59  <Eddi|zuHause2> sdl-devel
17:48:11  <DJNekkid> ty :D
17:48:49  <Eddi|zuHause2> i'm sure all the -devel packages you need are documented somewhere
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17:49:37  <Eddi|zuHause2> and ./configure should tell you also
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17:51:11  <DJNekkid> it was that who told me i needed video devel
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18:20:53  <andythenorth> efening
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18:30:14  <Eddi|zuHause> DJNekkid: then you probably didn't read carefully enough on which video drivers it suggested
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18:30:40  <Eddi|zuHause> although i'm not really familiar with what it actually says
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19:04:04  <andythenorth> ships ships ships
19:04:09  <andythenorth> ships with multiple cargos?
19:05:58  <Eddi|zuHause> problem is the refit gui is not able to handle individual parts of articulated vehicles
19:06:19  <andythenorth> that's resolvable
19:06:35  <andythenorth> what about pathfinding code, vehicle building code, unloading at stations code etc?
19:06:41  <andythenorth> big or small projects?
19:07:00  <Eddi|zuHause> mostly copy-pasting/unifying with road vehicles/trains
19:07:15  <Eddi|zuHause> movement: all articulated parts should be at the same location (0 length)
19:08:34  <Eddi|zuHause> vehicle-building: just enable articulated vehicle callback
19:12:26  <frosch123> doing ships via individually refittable articualted parts sounds like breaking everything
19:12:39  <frosch123> good luck with that :p
19:13:06  <frosch123> containers accepting a certain cargoclass or similiar are most likely easier
19:13:37  <andythenorth> involves some new concepts for stations though?
19:13:44  <andythenorth> or maybe not
19:13:48  <andythenorth> depends on the spec...
19:14:09  <andythenorth> so I just refit to a class?
19:14:14  <andythenorth> not a cargo?
19:14:55  <frosch123> something like that
19:15:08  <frosch123> you refit to a refitmask :p
19:15:28  <andythenorth> so say I want a freight ship that also has 20 PAX
19:15:31  <Eddi|zuHause> so you just throw an inhomogenous set of cargo packages into the vehicle?
19:15:38  <frosch123> just replace the single-select refit window with a number of checkboxes :)
19:15:45  <andythenorth> (I happen to think the freight + PAX case is bogus)
19:15:50  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yes, store the cargotype in the cargopacket
19:16:12  <andythenorth> so I can mix grain + coal in the same bulk ship :D
19:16:47  <frosch123> andythenorth: don't you think livestock + water + farm supplies is a good mixture?
19:16:56  <andythenorth> he
19:17:04  <andythenorth> what about diesel, fertiliser and sugar?
19:19:08  <andythenorth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANFO
19:20:55  <andythenorth> or how about chicken, fox, grain?
19:21:22  <frosch123> wolf, sheep, cabbage?
19:21:44  <Alberth> and water and a boat!!   should be solvable :p
19:21:44  <andythenorth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_crossing_puzzle
19:22:52  <andythenorth> this is my preferred version: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_and_torch_problem
19:23:04  <andythenorth> it somehow makes me think of bit masks
19:27:55  <Eddi|zuHause> it was a wolf, a goat and a cabbage in the version i learned
19:28:23  <__ln__> that sounds more familiar, yes
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19:30:20  <Alberth> bridge and torch problem is different
19:33:00  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i haven't seen the bridge and torch problem yet
19:33:35  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it's somehow a bit like HEQS trams :P
19:38:29  <frosch123> wiki knows them all, there is about a dozen names for the wolf-sheep-cabbage one :)
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20:06:25  <Wolf01> <Eddi|zuHause> it was a wolf, a goat and a cabbage in the version i learned <- the wolf was me
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20:38:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i really need to adjust my playing style to the new build-while-paused behaviour...
20:39:50  <andythenorth> I can't get used to it :)
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20:41:46  <Eddi|zuHause> ah i'll just allow all... ;)
20:44:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i need "inverse foundations" and diagonal slopes :(
20:45:04  <Wolf01> I would like to have sloped stations :(
20:46:24  <Eddi|zuHause> sloped stations are actually very unrealistic
20:46:40  <Eddi|zuHause> unless you have a cable car.
20:47:37  <Wolf01> is OTTD a game about realism?
20:47:57  <Eddi|zuHause> yes!!!11!!!einundelfzig
20:48:35  <Eddi|zuHause> but i can't have large curve radius in the mountains if i can't have a slope in the curve...
20:54:28  <Wolf01> I tried to allow diagonal slopes but, ignoring graphical problems, I didn't found a good way to be able to build the slope in 2 pieces and allow only the right train movement
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21:01:01  <Eddi|zuHause> diagonal stations would be neat
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21:05:51  <Eddi|zuHause> ... i have a feeling i'll be bankrupt by the time i finish this railway
21:06:47  <Wolf01> take a full loan and purchase an aircraft
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21:13:56  * andythenorth ponders
21:14:04  <Chris_Booth> Eddi|zuHause: diagonal station would be fun
21:14:32  <Chris_Booth> you can draw shunting stations with fake diagonal tracks
21:15:15  <Chris_Booth> would they suffer from the same issue as rotating airports though?
21:15:35  <andythenorth> what extra vehicle purchase window info text is useful for ships?
21:16:20  <Chris_Booth> you mean on top of what we allready have?
21:16:28  <andythenorth> yes
21:16:58  <Chris_Booth> recommended use eg short hual frieght
21:17:01  <Chris_Booth> long haul frieght
21:17:05  <Chris_Booth> passenger ferry
21:17:22  <andythenorth> ok - goo, htat's planned
21:17:25  <andythenorth> bah
21:17:30  <andythenorth> ok - good, that's planned
21:17:37  <andythenorth> someone just got murdered on TV - distracting
21:17:43  * andythenorth dislikes murder shows
21:17:46  <Chris_Booth> lol
21:18:31  <Chris_Booth> I think ships should have relative running costs.
21:18:46  <andythenorth> they do
21:18:48  <Chris_Booth> the longer the journey to lower the fuel costs as the ship gets lighter
21:18:50  <andythenorth> relative to 0
21:19:38  <Chris_Booth> so your ship would start out at a 1 and over time it would converge towards 0
21:19:51  <Chris_Booth> making longer trips cost less
21:20:24  <andythenorth> so over enough tiles, the ship becomes free to run?
21:20:32  <Chris_Booth> never free
21:20:38  <Chris_Booth> as it will never reach 0
21:20:47  <Chris_Booth> if it reached 0 then it would be free
21:20:54  <andythenorth> please provide the maths for that :D
21:20:56  <Chris_Booth> but would run out of fuel
21:21:13  <Chris_Booth> lol
21:21:25  <Chris_Booth> andy I am only messing
21:21:38  <andythenorth> I figured
21:21:53  <Chris_Booth> but would be fun to see ships stuck and out o fuel
21:22:00  <andythenorth> it's probably possible in nfo
21:22:02  * andythenorth looks
21:22:06  <Chris_Booth> fuel type would be a nice feature
21:22:36  <Chris_Booth> so wind steam coal etc
21:22:54  <andythenorth> yep - I'm adding that
21:22:59  <andythenorth> I guessed right so far :)
21:23:07  <andythenorth> anything else?  I couldn't think of any other info
21:23:19  <andythenorth> I have 'type' and 'propulsion' so far
21:23:36  * andythenorth confers the 80+ variable structure :P
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21:24:44  <andythenorth> :o
21:24:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i need a "this isn't a safe waiting point if train is longer than 8 tiles" signal :(
21:24:54  <andythenorth> Chris_Booth: your fuel proposal is actually possible
21:24:55  <Chris_Booth> things that mean nothing but would be interesting; length country, of origin
21:24:56  <andythenorth> bonkers
21:25:22  <Chris_Booth> lol that would be so funny
21:25:24  <Rubidium> fonsinchen: I've got http://rbijker.net/openttd/fs4440b.diff which seems to work
21:25:40  <fonsinchen> Oh, I was just going to post a suggestion, too
21:25:55  <andythenorth> it's possible to find the vehicle's current xy and destination xy
21:25:58  <Chris_Booth> then people would need to build service depots for ships to refuel or they would have to do it at docks
21:27:53  <Chris_Booth> I find ships are only useful is base costs are added and used to make crossing water with high capacity train lines crippling
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21:28:17  <fonsinchen> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/90/
21:28:20  <fonsinchen> My version
21:28:21  <Chris_Booth> otherwise they are just to slow / low capacity to make any real money from
21:28:41  <fonsinchen> I don't have time to read yours right now as I have to leave in 5 minutes, maybe tomorrow
21:28:54  * andythenorth makes lots of money with ships, no problem at all
21:29:18  <fonsinchen> mine is untested.
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21:30:32  * andythenorth ponders
21:30:46  <andythenorth> simple template, lots of repeated strings and string codes
21:30:47  <andythenorth> or
21:31:02  <andythenorth> complex template, efficient, but much more spaghetti
21:31:08  * Chris_Booth has cold feet and can't find his slippers
21:31:29  <Chris_Booth> mmh spaghetti would be nice righ now
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21:38:02  <Chris_Booth> andythenorth: what ship set are you working on?
21:38:06  <andythenorth> FISH
21:38:29  <Chris_Booth> FISH is nice, FISH + SAILS is nicer
21:38:49  <Chris_Booth> you can play from the 1800's
21:39:22  <andythenorth> that's the joy of multiple newgrfs ;)
21:39:42  <Chris_Booth> I had a game with only sail boats and horse and carts
21:39:47  <Chris_Booth> was the best game ever
21:42:46  <andythenorth> is this a nice vehicle window text, or a bit too much?  "Small coaster for trading inland and close to shore"
21:44:12  <Chris_Booth> Maybe "Small coaster Short Haul" would be more on the mark?
21:44:39  <andythenorth> or just "Small coaster"
21:45:07  <Chris_Booth> make some screen shot in game as get people to vote
21:45:07  <andythenorth> ¿ Eddi|zuHause: Rubidium you often have useful opinion on texts ^
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21:50:11  <Eddi|zuHause> more verbose is sometimes better. it's not like you easily run out of space...
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21:51:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i wonder how a moreheightlevels map would look without the "only one height level per tile" normalisation
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22:15:40  <__ln__> do the protesters want democracy or what?
22:17:45  <__ln__> the president giving a speech atm
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22:38:47  <frosch123> night
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22:39:34  <Terkhen> good night
22:39:40  <Wolf01> night
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23:16:49  <Wolf01> 'night
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