Log for #openttd on 6th February 2011:
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00:00:34  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: you can count updates to as windows-specific maintenance
00:01:10  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: actually, the same has to be done for Mac OS X
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00:01:22  <Rubidium> and building those libraries is trickier than making
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00:02:21  <james_o-> Hi, does anyone know when variables.h was removed, and where the variables were moved to?
00:03:00  <planetmaker> ages ago and settings*
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00:04:33  <__ln__> Rubidium: if we imagine for the sake of argument that the official OSX build system had been "frozen" at the state it was during the good old times (and thus 10.4 and PPC support only), do you think there would be an official OSX build now?
00:05:44  <__ln__> no messing with evil Intel and cross-compiling, neither with all those shiny new 10.5 and 10.6.
00:06:30  <Eddi|zuHause> james_o-: last commit to variables.h i found was r17248
00:07:10  <Eddi|zuHause> but that is likely not the one that removed it.
00:07:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know how to find that...
00:08:27  <Eddi|zuHause> james_o-: maybe you want to ask a different question altogether though
00:09:15  <james_o-> 1.0.5 had a variables.h file
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00:09:58  <Eddi|zuHause> james_o-: 1.0 was more around r16000-ish
00:10:30  <perk111> It was removed in 20192
00:10:39  <perk111> -Cleanup: bye bye variables.h, bye bye VARDEF... you won't be missed :)
00:10:58  <james_o-> Oh, VARDEF is gone?
00:12:58  <planetmaker> james_o-: get a vcs and update your patch(es) step by step...
00:13:08  <planetmaker> like jumping 500 or 1000 revisions.
00:13:24  <planetmaker> or read the 3000 commit messages
00:13:44  <__ln__> anyway, i apologize for talking on-topic things again.  i'll try to avoid that.
00:14:05  <Eddi|zuHause> depending on the complexity of the patch, rewriting may be more useful approach
00:15:09  <james_o-> Rewriting is a good idea, my variables probably shouldn't have been in variables.h
00:15:31  <Eddi|zuHause> james_o-: read the commits leading up to the above, how to do things "properly" instead of using vardef
00:15:56  <planetmaker> __ln__: I'm not sure what you're mad about now...
00:16:55  <planetmaker> but OSX is best supported by actual code work that discussions about how serious the currently still remaining deficencies are. You may also note that there currently are official OSX builds
00:18:07  <__ln__> planetmaker: I'm not mad.
00:20:07  <__ln__> it's just that history shows that whenever i talk something directly OpenTTD-related here, it usually doesn't end well.
00:20:28  <planetmaker> sad, if that's your perception
00:21:47  <__ln__> that's why I'm usually being 97% off-topic and everything goes great.
00:23:18  <planetmaker> you write cjk input and we can discuss to remove that known-bugs.txt entry :-P
00:23:40  <planetmaker> or rather both :-)
00:24:03  <__ln__> also today is not one of the times when it didn't end well; just making a general remark
00:24:42  <__ln__> CJK sounds something chinese
00:25:24  <planetmaker> try to enter Chinese characters. (or Japanese or Korean - that's not trivial)
00:25:56  <planetmaker> and API documentation I read on it is... obscure to say
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00:28:24  * Rubidium postulates it isn't the being on-topic that makes things go haywire, but rather having Mac OS X problems as topic
00:34:48  <__ln__> entering chinese is not an ultimate success in the Windows version either either imho.
00:35:35  <__ln__> i do get funny onscreen menus to choose characters from, but what ends up in OpenTTD is questionmarks.
00:38:47  <__ln__> maybe i'm missing a font. but are those chinese characters even possible to present in such a small font size as the text entry fields have?
00:40:59  <glx> on windows we just use the API like any other windows apps
00:42:16  <glx> and as we use custom drawing, an extra window to enter CJK is created
00:42:20  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: you must set up an unicode-capable font in openttd.cfg first. if you select chinese as language, this will be done for you automatically
00:43:23  <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: ah, so it seems, thanks
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00:45:02  <__ln__> glx: does it work in fullscreen?
00:46:29  <__ln__> now the extra window won't open anymore, all i get is latin letters... (still windowed mode)
00:49:00  <glx> you set the right mode in lang toolbar ?
00:49:12  <__ln__> yeah
00:49:28  <glx> though in fullscreen it seems to return to alphanumeric
00:50:36  <__ln__> hmm, restarting openttd helped, but indeed i was somehow able to make it not work a while ago.
00:55:14  <__ln__> again it's not working. i visited fullscreen and returned this time.
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01:01:40  <glx> hmm after a quick look in the code it seems we don't do anything special and let windows handling that for us
01:02:25  <z-MaTRiX_> hi
01:02:36  <z-MaTRiX_> can someone help in linux?
01:03:28  <z-MaTRiX_> having problem "xrandr: Configure crtc 0 failed" after issue 'xrandr --output default --mode "1280x960_60.00"'
01:03:59  <z-MaTRiX_> (new kde does not have xorg.conf)
01:07:24  <Eddi|zuHause> z-MaTRiX_: tried "xrandr -s 1280x960"?
01:07:41  <Eddi|zuHause> who has 4:3 monitors anymore?
01:08:02  * TruePikachu has a 4x3
01:08:08  <TruePikachu> err...4:3
01:08:13  <Eddi|zuHause> afair 1280x960 isn't even a standard mode
01:08:26  <TruePikachu> I'm pretty sure it is
01:08:41  <Eddi|zuHause> 1280x1024 is, but it's not exactly 4:3
01:08:59  <TruePikachu> ^^ yeah, that one is confusing
01:09:21  <__ln__> so would it be an acceptable solution to open a new, external dialog window with a text entry field?
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01:10:03  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: sounds fine to me, but i'm not an expert
01:10:18  <planetmaker> that's what I've seen usually happens. I expect a OS-supplied window for entering stuff which is then handed to OpenTTD
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01:11:47  <z-MaTRiX_> hmm i have 4:3
01:12:18  * TruePikachu wonders why OpenTTD has been taking so long to start
01:12:26  <z-MaTRiX_> [root@matrix etc]# xrandr -s 1280x960
01:12:27  <z-MaTRiX_> Failed to change the screen configuration!
01:12:44  <TruePikachu> Anything changed in the boot coding between 1.0.4 and 1.0.5?
01:12:53  <__ln__> you are root
01:12:54  <Eddi|zuHause> z-MaTRiX_: only CRT monitors are usually 4:3. TFT monitors are typically 5:4, 16:10 or nowadays 16:9
01:13:13  <z-MaTRiX_> hm yes su
01:13:17  <Eddi|zuHause> TruePikachu: your downloaded content grew?
01:13:18  <TruePikachu> 5:4 and 16:10 are new ratios for me...
01:13:24  <TruePikachu> Eddi|zuHause: No
01:13:45  <TruePikachu> At least, not that I know of
01:14:04  <Eddi|zuHause> TruePikachu: you have a large folder called "data" somwehere which is unrelated to openttd, but openttd thinks it might contain useful stuff?
01:14:06  <glx> __ln__: maybe I'll need to read carefully :)
01:14:17  <planetmaker> <-- __ln__ that's what I'd expect to see somehow. The letters are underlined and space opens the selection menu you see.
01:14:38  <TruePikachu> Eddi|zuHause: even one that's not part of the OpenTTD file tree?
01:14:48  <z-MaTRiX_> btw got it work but does not set mode
01:14:49  <Eddi|zuHause> TruePikachu: one of $(pwd)/data, ~/data, /data or ~/.openttd/data
01:15:13  <z-MaTRiX_> could not set the configuration for crtc262
01:15:17  <TruePikachu> PWD for KDE's desktop is the desktop dir?
01:15:48  <Eddi|zuHause> TruePikachu: don't know.
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01:16:08  <TruePikachu> I have no ~/data or /data
01:16:29  * TruePikachu will go through the DLC and remove some things eventually
01:16:39  <__ln__> glx: i suppose it would help (on windows) if the fullscreen mode was not a real fullscreen mode but a borderless screen-sized window?
01:17:03  <Eddi|zuHause> TruePikachu: you can try things like starting "openttd -d misc=3" or so to see where openttd searches
01:17:57  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: one of the advantages of true fullscreen is the change to 8bpp mode
01:18:20  <glx> maybe, but if we (I) can integrate IME in openttd it'll look better
01:18:28  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: also borderless windows might be affected by taskbar and stuff
01:20:06  <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: yes, but with such approach you can have fullscreen OpenTTD on one screen and irc, email, whatever on second screen, and use both just by moving the mouse from one place to another.
01:21:07  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: personally, i just play windowed anyway
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01:24:04  <planetmaker> __ln__: OSX has different "full screen" modes which allows to select one monitor or another or all
01:24:13  <planetmaker> so I guess windows has that somewhere, too
01:24:44  <planetmaker> (OpenTTD just implements full screen on the 1st monitor IIRC)
01:26:56  <__ln__> planetmaker: i've tested a patch which used the Quartz-or-something fullscreen mode on OpenTTD, and it was great. possible to apple-tab between fullscreen OTTD and other apps, first of all.
01:28:30  <planetmaker> he :-)
01:28:54  <planetmaker> but sleep is calling - so good night folks :-)
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01:29:04  <__ln__> it's actually really evil that OTTD normally grabs all mouse and keyboard input to itself in fullscreen
01:29:52  <planetmaker> well, the method now employed for the windowed modes could (and should) be extended to the fullscreen driver, too
01:29:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i know that from dosbox
01:30:20  <planetmaker> they share enough code to make it worthwhile
01:30:29  <Eddi|zuHause> it captures all global kde-hotkeys, so i can't change volume or currently playing title
01:30:31  <__ln__> planetmaker: indeed. and that's what the patch did actually...
01:30:59  <__ln__> or rather it was the patch that also implemented the new kind of windowed mode video driver too.
01:31:18  <planetmaker> do I know it?
01:32:03  <planetmaker> or should I?
01:32:22  <__ln__> the patch was made by a friend of mine, was rejected by Bjarni, but was later more or less applied to OpenTTD by egladil.  but not the fullscreen part.
01:33:43  <planetmaker> hm, I see
01:33:49  <planetmaker> or not ;-)
01:34:31  <__ln__> it was the era when QuickDraw was becoming deprecated and a new implementation was needed
01:34:59  <z-MaTRiX_> ah
01:35:11  <z-MaTRiX_> x doesnt want to set resolution
01:35:42  <z-MaTRiX_> "Could not set the configuration for CRTC 262"
01:35:56  <z-MaTRiX_> and "monitor: unknown"
01:36:00  <__ln__> Bjarni rejected the patch because he considered it to be slower than the old QuickDraw implementation.
01:36:17  <planetmaker> oha
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07:57:23  <andythenorth> moarning
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08:36:45  <dihedral> good morning
08:41:38  <Terkhen> good morning
08:43:29  <andythenorth> did I do win?
08:43:30  <andythenorth>
08:43:40  <andythenorth> I prefer it to:
08:44:07  <andythenorth> this is too much colour:
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08:46:21  <Terkhen> wow, nice :)
08:46:35  <Terkhen> I also prefer #8
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09:01:45  <dihedral> i like #9 :P
09:02:20  <dihedral> with #8 i needed a second look to determin the colour :P
09:02:42  <dihedral> with #7 i needed a second look to get past the colour :-D
09:03:12  <andythenorth> dihedral: he :)
09:03:20  <dihedral> anyway - i am of to church
09:03:21  <dihedral> laters
09:03:42  <Rubidium> tss...
09:04:31  <Rubidium> I thought you were member of the Holy Site of Transport Tycoon... but no... he fancies another holy site as well ;)
09:04:51  <Guest428> hey-ho
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09:05:43  <Terkhen> hmmm... autorenew with HEQS trams always builds them with the lowest capacity
09:05:45  <dihedral> LOL Rubidium :D
09:06:08  <andythenorth> Terkhen: it doesn't maintain the refit on renew?
09:06:34  <andythenorth> I thought subtype refits were preserved...
09:07:06  <Rubidium> if the refits are considered the same
09:07:42  <Terkhen> it seems that it selects the first appropiate one
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09:09:24  <Rubidium> and "considered the same" = same cargo substring (ID)
09:13:16  <planetmaker> moin
09:14:16  <planetmaker> nice lime kilns, andythenorth :-)
09:14:26  <planetmaker> Possibly you could use both colour-reduced versions?
09:14:31  <planetmaker> As alternate designs?
09:14:53  <planetmaker> But either is fine for me
09:15:03  <planetmaker> i.e. I can't decide ;-)
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09:23:13  <andythenorth>
09:23:16  <andythenorth> about done for now
09:24:51  <planetmaker> kudos, andythenorth :-)
09:25:27  <planetmaker> one thing I wonder about though: the ground tiles. Would they be concrete really?
09:26:02  <planetmaker> what about making the lower left two ones use the default ground tile (i.e. grass in the screenshot)?
09:26:16  <planetmaker> and maybe some dirt overlay?
09:26:30  <planetmaker> or is that for a later version? ;-)
09:26:33  <andythenorth> later
09:26:36  <planetmaker> :-)
09:26:43  <andythenorth> this can go in 0.6
09:26:53  <andythenorth> I'll play a few games until I know what annoys me about it
09:26:56  <andythenorth> then I'll fix it
09:27:11  <andythenorth> then probably breaking savegames due to layout changes :P
09:27:19  <andythenorth> (could be fixed by cb28 handling)
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09:29:22  <planetmaker> Well, I think a general 'issue' with FIRS are the boring ground tiles for many processing industries
09:29:37  <andythenorth> yup
09:29:37  <planetmaker> Farms, sand pits, fishing grounds - they blend in nicely :-)
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09:44:11  * andythenorth wonders how FIRS secondary closure works :P
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09:47:05  <planetmaker> time for another stable server test game?
09:47:26  <planetmaker> But I guess I could only have it use 0.5.5 there
09:49:10  <andythenorth> If secondary industry closure is enabled, there is a chance of closure each
09:49:10  <andythenorth> month if no cargo has been delivered in the previous 18 months.
09:49:14  <andythenorth> make sense?
09:50:04  <planetmaker> yes
09:50:27  <andythenorth> one task left
09:50:43  <planetmaker> one thing one can think about: make that chance map-size dependent
09:50:51  <planetmaker> lower chance for larger maps
09:51:38  <andythenorth> maybe
09:51:55  <andythenorth> I don't really understand the random var anyway :)
09:52:08  <andythenorth> could adjust the NUM_MONTHS_CLOSURE_PROTECTED value by map size
09:52:19  <andythenorth> might have bad effects on small maps
09:52:37  <andythenorth> I need to be able to trigger arbitrary news messages
09:52:39  <planetmaker> nah, not the protection span - that just changes the time of the big depression on big maps
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09:53:26  <andythenorth> I wonder if I'm doing the monthly check, or using the random production change cb?
09:54:02  <andythenorth> looks like I'm using the random
09:54:11  <andythenorth> so there should be less chance of mass extinction
09:54:46  <andythenorth> planetmaker: min version is just repo version?
09:54:49  <andythenorth> or a tag?
09:55:00  <planetmaker> it's the repo version
09:55:12  <planetmaker> or *some* repo version. It's not a tag
09:55:17  <andythenorth> so if I'm at 1716
09:55:19  <andythenorth> I use that?
09:55:23  <andythenorth> or 1717?
09:55:31  <andythenorth> (I'm about to commit the version check)
09:55:47  <planetmaker> uh, version check? For what?
09:55:55  <andythenorth>
09:56:25  <z-MaTRiX> still no solution for crtc error ;<
09:56:25  <planetmaker> well, yes, just set it to the revision / repo version you're going to commit
09:56:37  <z-MaTRiX> (linux screen resolution)
09:56:50  <z-MaTRiX> linux hates me ;<
09:57:31  <planetmaker> andythenorth: but generally that s/should be done when you actually break it.
09:57:37  <andythenorth> I know
09:57:41  <andythenorth> next time...
09:57:43  <planetmaker> and not in a separate commit ;-)
09:57:49  <andythenorth> keeping track of breaks is quite tricky :P
09:57:50  <planetmaker> k :-)
09:57:59  <andythenorth> it's easy for a vehicle set
09:58:05  <andythenorth> not easy for FIRS
09:58:17  <planetmaker> what's more difficult?
09:58:29  <andythenorth> remembering what can cause breaks
09:58:39  <planetmaker> :-D
09:58:42  <andythenorth> and deciding whether a minor break justifies a bump
09:59:36  <andythenorth> if I bump too often, I won't get much player feedback
09:59:50  <planetmaker> hm, might be, yes
10:00:12  <andythenorth> I figure using a nightly comes with a health warning anyway
10:01:34  <andythenorth> do I need to bump any other static info for a tagged release?
10:01:42  <andythenorth> I'm not very up to date on action 14 stuff
10:02:18  <planetmaker> nah, you're fine
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10:06:56  <kamnet> Morning. Planetmaker, are you around?
10:07:10  <planetmaker> moin :-)
10:07:36  <kamnet> Do you remember what date you advanced OpenMSX from 0.3.1 to 1.0.0 ?
10:07:54  <planetmaker> I did not yet, did I?
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10:08:26  <kamnet> I didn't think you had, at least not noted it in the forums, but on openttdcoop it's listed as 1.0.0 and current version 1.1.0
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10:09:19  <planetmaker> where?
10:09:38  <kamnet>
10:10:00  <kamnet> in the menu option it jumps from 0.2.0 to 1.0.0 then 1.1.0
10:10:18  <planetmaker> oh, that's the bug tracker you see there.
10:10:31  <planetmaker> And those versions are the version they need to be solved latest
10:10:51  <planetmaker> like "1.0.0 can only be released when this is solved"
10:11:04  <planetmaker> it doesn't mean 1.0.0 will be released ;-)
10:11:31  <kamnet> Aha, I understand, thank you!  I'm trying to do a right-proper update for the wiki
10:12:48  <planetmaker> kamnet: you get release dates also from the file date here:
10:15:07  <planetmaker> other than that: 0.2.1 on Mar 26 2010, 0.2.0 on Mar 13 2010 and 0.1.0 on Feb 27 2010
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10:16:16  <planetmaker> nice to see a wiki update :-)
10:16:48  <planetmaker> But I wonder whether I should call OpenMSX 1.0.0 ;-)
10:16:48  <kamnet> Ayup long overdue. The strange things I think of doing instead of sleeping.
10:16:56  <planetmaker> haha :-)
10:17:25  <kamnet> I think it would be deserving of the 1.0.0 title once every song in the collection is contributed fro within the community.
10:18:33  <kamnet> After I've finished updating the wiki I'll go make a fuss in the forums about needing more contributions
10:18:43  <planetmaker> well, what's "the community" and why should a song which I like and someone gave permission to not be included if it fits?
10:19:27  <planetmaker> with "I like = people like". But yes, mostly I feel it could be improved. OTOH we have a full set and we can always easily progress past 1.0 ;-)
10:21:06  <kamnet> "the community" being the players of the game and users from the forums.
10:22:20  <planetmaker> that'll be a very long way ;-)
10:23:42  <kamnet> Yep, it will be. But I think it fits in with the spirit of doing a full clone of the game.
10:24:06  <kamnet> Microprose used their own in-house talents to create the original TTD music, after all. :-)
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10:24:42  <planetmaker> hehe :-) - I hoped you'd start composing ;-)
10:25:12  <kamnet> There's about a 1000x more likely chance that I end up as lead developer for NML. LOL
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10:26:32  <kamnet> I'm the least musically inclined person in my family. My children, on the other hand, are very talented, which they get entirely from their mother's side of the family. When they get to high school next year they can actually learn MIDI.
10:27:00  <kamnet> I'll make them start playing the game and then contribute compositions MUAHAHA.
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10:34:47  <planetmaker> haha :-)
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10:47:49  * andythenorth should patch the openttd 'successful login' page
10:47:53  <andythenorth> it's very annoying :D
10:56:31  <planetmaker> andythenorth: so... I should allow both industry types to close?
10:59:46  <andythenorth> I don't
10:59:53  <andythenorth> but I guess it's the most useful test of the code
11:00:00  <andythenorth> I find closure tedious :)
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11:10:32  * andythenorth wonders
11:10:35  <andythenorth> what next :P
11:12:49  <andythenorth> Terkhen: how did the profiling go for the functions you were unifying?
11:13:12  <Terkhen> andythenorth: confusing
11:13:17  <andythenorth> :|
11:13:25  <Terkhen> as I got unexpected results that others were not able to reproduce
11:13:46  <andythenorth> should I try?
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11:14:13  <Terkhen> since I'm going to set up a "new" desktop (with old parts) I am waiting to try on it
11:14:18  <andythenorth> ok
11:14:27  <andythenorth> maybe I try and fix cb28 again :P
11:14:54  <Terkhen> hmm... I don't know if the profiling script would run on osx, it uses a lot of instructions I did not know before
11:15:44  <andythenorth> I need a coding buddy for adventures in cb 28 :)
11:20:31  * planetmaker wonders... is 250 million cost for terraforming one tile too much? :-D
11:22:30  <planetmaker> getting a selection of newgrf work nicely together... can take time, too
11:23:39  <planetmaker> and newgrfs which require a parameter to play with a climate or with other newgrfs suck :S
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11:27:54  <planetmaker> hm, I think I like it that sea water is costing millions to clear
11:29:54  <andythenorth> :)
11:30:50  <Terkhen> planetmaker: IIRC you have to clear a water tile to build a lock
11:31:12  <planetmaker> well. Ships cost 16000x running cost anyway :-P
11:31:28  <planetmaker> in a free MP environment it has to be discouraged :-P
11:31:56  <Terkhen> that's like forbidding them :)
11:32:04  <planetmaker> quite :-)
11:32:14  <Terkhen> why don't you just set their number to zero?
11:32:23  <planetmaker> But successful people can afford a ship for leasure for their CEO
11:33:05  <Terkhen> oh, ok :)
11:33:43  <planetmaker> I once bought with similar settings a helicopter for 40 million and 4 million annual running costs - which did not quite balance its income of 100k per year ;-)
11:33:57  <planetmaker> just because and only to have the single aircraft ingame :-P
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11:34:45  <andythenorth> 'newgame'
11:35:01  <planetmaker> but fishing grounds with FISH and ships are nicer... :S
11:35:02  <Prof_Frink> planetmaker: That's not a bad idea. Replace (one of) the subs with a luxury yacht.
11:35:11  * andythenorth wishes he had known about 'newgame' in console for the last 2 years of testing FIRS map gen
11:35:18  <planetmaker> Prof_Frink: indeed :-)
11:35:58  <planetmaker> I totally forgot... how do submarines influence the game?
11:36:30  <Prof_Frink> Not at all.
11:36:31  <andythenorth> hmm
11:36:40  <andythenorth> luxury yacht could be like a HQ somehow
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11:38:28  <andythenorth> uh oh
11:38:37  <andythenorth> I just realised I screwed up the FIRS 0.6 massively :o
11:38:43  <planetmaker> how?
11:39:14  <planetmaker> I'm still testing newgrf config, so no harm done for my map creation ;-)
11:39:21  <andythenorth> I forgot to make the HQ accept Alcohol :(
11:39:29  <planetmaker> :-D
11:39:48  <Terkhen> :S
11:39:54  <Terkhen> can you rollback?
11:40:19  <planetmaker> Actually I think the 'alcohol' sounds a bit too technical for the cargo - or is it mainly ethanol plant producing industrial alcohol?
11:40:49  <andythenorth> it's so we can also have wine + rum
11:40:51  <andythenorth> not just beer
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11:41:03  <andythenorth> drinks?
11:41:21  <andythenorth> 'booze'
11:41:57  <planetmaker> liquor?
11:42:01  <andythenorth> not bad
11:42:03  <andythenorth> the HQ mod can go into 0.6.1 as a quick fix
11:42:14  <andythenorth> there's at least one other fix needed
11:42:40  <planetmaker> "legal drugs" :-P
11:42:52  <andythenorth> planetmaker: do you want to wait for 0.6.1 for the MP game?
11:43:03  <planetmaker> I easily could. Is it needed?
11:43:17  <planetmaker> I mean 0.6.1? What's wrong?
11:43:24  <andythenorth> HQ -> beer :)
11:43:38  <planetmaker> uhm... sure that's possible?
11:43:42  <andythenorth> dunno let
11:43:45  <andythenorth> me look
11:43:53  <planetmaker> I don't think so. Unless you kill passengers
11:45:44  <planetmaker> btw, Terkhen: placing a dock costs me 300 with this base cost setting - so it's not affected by clear water costs
11:45:57  <planetmaker> same for the ship yard
11:45:58  <andythenorth> are HQ grfs just using action A?
11:46:10  <planetmaker> yes. HQ are not newgrf-able except graphics
11:46:28  <andythenorth> we should change that :D
11:46:44  <andythenorth> ok
11:46:56  <andythenorth> 0.6.1 will be later
11:46:58  <andythenorth> lets not wait :)
11:47:04  <Terkhen> planetmaker: what about locks?
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11:49:28  <andythenorth> quak
11:49:38  <andythenorth> (his timing is always spooky)
11:49:39  <frosch123> moin
11:49:52  <andythenorth> frosch123: is newgrf-HQs feasible?
11:49:55  <andythenorth> or wise?
11:50:57  <frosch123> what makes a hq a hq?
11:51:03  <andythenorth> I don't know
11:51:09  <andythenorth> I'm opening the src to find out :)
11:51:30  <frosch123> is it just a random new object, which is unique on the map, and where the viewport jumps to when you click on "goto hq"?
11:51:39  <Terkhen> it also accepts cargo
11:51:43  <planetmaker> quak :-)
11:52:24  <planetmaker> Terkhen: locks are virtually unbuildable :-(
11:52:33  <frosch123> andythenorth: that was not the question :) i know the code, but i would like to know what is the difference between a hq and a new object from the player point of view
11:52:43  <planetmaker> 650 million per lock
11:52:46  <Terkhen> heh
11:52:50  <andythenorth> frosch123: hq has to be unique
11:52:56  <andythenorth> and there's a special button to build it
11:53:10  <andythenorth> any town effect (besides PAX acceptance / production)
11:53:11  <andythenorth> ?
11:53:15  <frosch123> and shall the player be allowed to select a hq from multiple layouts?
11:53:16  <Terkhen> planetmaker: perhaps it should not use the water costs for "clearing" the tiles?
11:53:22  <andythenorth> frosch123: maybe
11:53:32  <andythenorth> I don't find that interesting but others probably would
11:53:48  <planetmaker> also canals are WAY too expensive. There should be a distinction between sea water and canals ;-)
11:54:01  <andythenorth> objects don't accept / produce
11:54:07  <frosch123> in that case, just define a special object class "CPHQ" which is not displayed in the object gui, but in the build hq gui
11:54:19  <andythenorth> (I think objects should accept / produce)
11:54:33  <frosch123> but only like houses, not like industries
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11:54:43  <Yexo> if objects accept / produce, what makes them different from industries?
11:54:51  <andythenorth> like houses
11:55:06  <andythenorth> light house is a good example
11:55:07  <Terkhen> planetmaker: <--- you should be able to separate canal/sea costs
11:55:29  <andythenorth> or a light ship
11:55:57  <Terkhen> but the lock clears the upper and lower tiles, so it ends up using the clear water cost too
11:56:09  <planetmaker> Terkhen: yeah, I guess I didn't set enough entries in the basecost mod :-)
11:56:27  <Terkhen> IIRC it was updated for these costs
11:58:38  * andythenorth does wonder
11:58:56  <andythenorth> what actual harm could result from new object tiles accepting / producing cargo?
12:00:44  <planetmaker> wow. That's nicely inconsistent: Lock costs: 500 million when placing on plain slope
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12:01:03  <planetmaker> if build a canal on the upper and lower tile for 8000 each - then the lock costs only 50k
12:01:06  <ZirconiumX> Hello
12:01:13  <planetmaker> price difference: factor 1000
12:01:20  <andythenorth> if objects could accept / produce, is that a cheat opportunity?
12:01:21  <planetmaker> actually 10000
12:03:08  * planetmaker investigates
12:08:09  <Terkhen> planetmaker: DoBuildLock in water_cmd.cpp
12:08:16  <planetmaker> yeah
12:08:21  <planetmaker> just testing fix :-)
12:08:25  <Terkhen> probably line 222 :)
12:08:26  <Yexo> cost.AddCost(_price[PR_CLEAR_WATER]); <- that is strange imo
12:08:29  <planetmaker> two lines
12:08:37  <Terkhen> but I do remember some logic for keeping that
12:08:45  <planetmaker> quite. And should be PR_BUILD_CANAL
12:08:59  <Terkhen> what if it is clearing a sea tile?
12:09:12  <planetmaker> then that line isn't called
12:09:12  <Yexo> it's never clearing a sea tile
12:09:19  <Yexo> it's only added when the tile _is not_ water already
12:09:40  <Terkhen> hmm... right
12:09:50  <Terkhen> then it sh