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Log for #openttd on 10th February 2011:
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00:15:20  <dihedral> good night
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00:20:41  <Eddi|zuHause> do you know this feeling where you load one of your old TTO games, and you recognize your company colour, but what you see is totally AI-style building, so you start to wonder...?
00:21:09  <SmatZ> :)
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00:22:00  <Wolf01> 'night
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00:22:28  <SmatZ> actually, even my TTO games look quite fine :)
00:23:07  <Eddi|zuHause> on a different note: anyone considered implementing a TTO-compatibility german town name generator?
00:23:39  <SmatZ> in what way is the one in OTTD broken?
00:23:53  <SmatZ> (I know it shows some "german town names are broken" text)
00:24:41  <Eddi|zuHause> it generates totally different town names
00:25:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what triggers the message, but it may be that the stored names generate duplicates or something
00:25:06  <SmatZ> are TTD town names broken too?
00:25:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure...
00:29:29  <SmatZ> http://devs.openttd.org/~smatz/TRT05.SV1 my latest TTO savegame :) according to savgame date, I was 12 :)
00:30:27  <SmatZ> I discovered the cheat that with 1 vehicle to vehicle limit, when you built a multiheaded engine, only 1 part was built
00:30:32  <SmatZ> for half the price
00:30:42  <SmatZ> but when you sold it, you got the whole price :P
00:35:41  <Eddi|zuHause> err... :p
00:36:09  <Eddi|zuHause> at the vehicle limit, my computer was so slow, that i usually didn't bother anymore
00:36:17  <Eddi|zuHause> ARGH... a crash...
00:36:25  <SmatZ> :)
00:36:29  <SmatZ> in trunk?
00:36:32  <SmatZ> quite likely
00:36:32  <Eddi|zuHause>  [07] bin/openttd(_Z20MoveBuoysToWaypointsv+0xba) [0x723e8a]
00:36:50  <Eddi|zuHause> r22012M
00:36:56  <SmatZ> hmm
00:37:12  <SmatZ> today's nightly should be crashy
00:37:17  <SmatZ> not r22012
00:40:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i'll upload the savegame to the bug tracker
00:40:53  <SmatZ> ok
00:41:49  <glx> there's a M in his version
00:42:44  <Eddi|zuHause> the M should really not have anything to do with that ;)
00:43:16  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... how do i find out the filename of a TTO Savegame that gets shown by company name in the load window?
00:43:38  <glx> it's in the save
00:43:48  <SmatZ> first ~25 bytes of the .sv1 file
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00:49:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i hope this was the right one
00:50:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i found a ttd savegame, and it also says the message about town names being buggy
00:51:06  <SmatZ> did it work in the past?
00:51:17  <SmatZ> FS#4496
00:51:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure. maybe
00:52:55  <SmatZ> ok, 0.7 loads it fine
00:53:09  <SmatZ> nice map :)
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00:54:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know the map, i couldn't load it ;)
00:54:18  <SmatZ> :)
00:54:22  <SmatZ> run 0.7.x
00:54:33  <SmatZ> hmm there are some oil rigs without statinos
00:54:47  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that happened when you ran over the station limit
00:55:59  <Eddi|zuHause> 0.7.4 had warnings in ai_road.cpp?
00:56:27  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... lots more wanrings
00:56:34  <Eddi|zuHause> but it seems to have built
00:57:39  <SmatZ> I am reworking savegame conversion a bit...
00:57:43  <SmatZ> it's a lot of work :(
00:59:02  <Eddi|zuHause> it would help remembering the maps better, if the names wouldn't all be different :p
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04:27:02  <ccfreak2k> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7708405/doot.png
04:27:03  <ccfreak2k> Lovely.
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05:59:26  * TruePikachu wonders why nobody updates the wiki
06:00:17  <TruePikachu> I may soon go on an {{outdated}} spree
06:02:42  <Yexo> it helps a lot more to just start updating instead of adding {{outdated}} everywhere
06:10:48  <TruePikachu> Yeah, but I can't be trusted to add everything ;)
06:11:13  <TruePikachu> night
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07:22:06  <planetmaker> moin
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07:32:59  <Terkhen> good morning
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08:42:32  <Eddi|zuHause> is it known that when the config file states a higher window size than a maximised window is able to take, the title menu is not centered?
08:43:49  <planetmaker> say again?
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08:45:12  <planetmaker> Currently I often have defined a window size of 2560x1600 when starting a new game - on a screen of 1280x800 - and the window resizes to full screen and the menu is centred for me
08:45:42  <planetmaker> (if that was your statement it doesn't work, it must be OS specific :-P)
08:45:58  <dihedral> good morning
08:46:10  <planetmaker> moin dihedral
08:49:27  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: it smells like a SDL bug
08:49:51  <Eddi|zuHause> happens in both 0.7 and trunk
08:50:37  <Rubidium> just maximise the screen and set any resolution; SDL won't cancel the maximisation
08:51:24  <Rubidium> even though it (happily) tells OpenTTD it could allocate a surface, and then tells OpenTTD that the resolution is the actual resolution we passed
08:52:11  <Rubidium> so, either SDL has to cancel maximisation or it has to return the actual resolution back to OpenTTD
08:58:30  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: i have another game where trains get "go via" orders, but they don't crash
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09:00:30  * Eddi|zuHause has the feeling the interpretation of "ttdpatch-compatible nonstop" is wrong for tto-savegames
09:12:33  <planetmaker> oh, I love that. "...Please see the attached image..." and the attachement is ... *.docx
09:12:45  <planetmaker> (no, not a spam mail)
09:13:18  <planetmaker> but OOo fails on opening it, of course :S
09:16:48  <SmatZ> people who send images via email by putting it to a word document are not worth communicating with
09:17:42  <Terkhen> heh :D
09:17:43  <Rubidium> SmatZ: I've actually sent binaries in a word document
09:17:53  <SmatZ> :-(
09:18:30  <Rubidium> got to love an environment where you may not start any "unknown" .exe
09:18:31  <__ln__> a word document is an excellent method to send a screenshot of a browser showing a 403 page.
09:18:33  <SmatZ> Rubidium: why in a word document? because the antispam filtered out normal text?
09:18:50  <SmatZ> :)
09:18:54  <Rubidium> then you just use put it in a word document and run it from there: voila, you've got your command prompt
09:19:08  <SmatZ> :D
09:19:52  <Rubidium> ofcourse, later we found out that a missing destination for a shortcut would get us a "select the executable to actually run" window, which made things much easier
09:20:27  <SmatZ> :)
09:21:56  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: still, they are broken :(
09:22:49  <SmatZ> one problem is that TTDP savegames are "older" than OTTD ones (they use old map format), so they go through all savegame conversion, but they contain some "new" features, like locks, waypoints, ...
09:22:52  <SmatZ> trams...
09:25:36  <planetmaker> [10:16]	<SmatZ>	people who send images via email by putting it to a word document are not worth communicating with <-- well, yes. But I'm obliged to do so
09:25:54  <SmatZ> yeah :(
09:26:02  <SmatZ> sorry, it was not very nice from me
09:26:06  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: these are TTO savegames, and it seems to interpret the "use non-stop as default" as "use ttdpatch-nonstop" during conversion
09:26:09  <SmatZ> I just know how angry it makes me
09:26:21  <planetmaker> nah, you're right, SmatZ :-) - so it does me.
09:26:25  <Rubidium> am I right to assume that the people that do send images in unopenable word documents are those that pay you (dean/boss, grant people, etc)?
09:26:28  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: I think it's intended
09:26:44  <planetmaker> Seems I'll either have to a) ask a collegue to give me a print out or b) mail back and ask for "send me in another format"
09:27:00  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: but i don't believe it's the reason for the crash
09:27:01  <planetmaker> both is VERY inefficient
09:27:20  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: in this case, it is that train that causes the crash, because the game thinks it's a waypoint order
09:27:43  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: but it also crashes when i change the nonstop setting
09:27:45  <SmatZ> planetmaker: can s/he export it to PDF?
09:28:04  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: while the other savegame has proper orders then
09:28:28  <planetmaker> They should be able... they get millions of € for this project for... this kind of stuff
09:28:44  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, some conversion just went wrong :) maybe it thinks that station is a waypoint, so it changes that order to a go-via order, but also it crashes, because it can't find a waypoint with that order (only a station)
09:29:12  <SmatZ> :)
10:04:24  * dihedral wants to work on grapes but is sat at work :-(
10:04:25  <dihedral> grr
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10:06:43  <peter1138> better have some wine
10:06:52  <peter1138> then you won't care that you're at work
10:07:11  <planetmaker> btw, Eddi|zuHause if you're bored sometime: using dbsetXL with the double deck coaches seems to have some funny influence on the grfs - but I can't be bothered to really investigate, esp. what the double deck coaches do. Maybe you can be bothered ;-)
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10:17:59  <dihedral> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4491 <- how hard would it be to implement something along these lines?
10:18:18  <dihedral> peter1138, lol :-)
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10:52:24  <Wolf01> hello
10:52:39  <SmatZ> hello Wolf01
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11:11:36  <xiong> Are there known issues with interval servicing? I asked about this a couple days ago and got pointed to this: http://docs.openttd.org/vehicle_8cpp_source.html#l00170
11:13:03  <SmatZ> I don't think there are any known problems
11:13:18  <xiong> I can't read python well but this seems to tell me that a vehicle due for service that has a depot order will never interval depot. I don't understand the other two conditions.
11:14:30  <xiong> But I have a test case, a loop of track with depot sidings, around which trains cycle endlessly, through two stations with non-stop-via. These never use the depots.
11:15:08  <peter1138> What does python have to do with it?
11:15:51  <xiong> I dunno; is that C? I only write Perl these days; it's been 20 years since I touched any C.
11:16:29  <xiong> I don't pretend to be a Perl expert either, if that's your next question.
11:17:21  <xiong> But I would like to try to learn what can interfere with interval servicing. Ordering trains to depot seems too rigid.
11:17:43  <SmatZ> the vehicle won't go to depot if it has depot orders, if it is loading or if it is going to depot
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11:18:37  <xiong> You mean to say, if it is in the process of loading, as in ordered to full load. I've seen that; a train will die all the way down to 0% reliability without abandoning the platform for a depot. That's fine.
11:19:12  <xiong> It's rather odd to say that it won't attempt to go to depot if it is already going to depot but I understand the line of thinking, maybe.
11:19:41  <xiong> None of this explains my test case. Is this a known thing or is it unusual enough that I should show it?
11:20:42  <Yexo> if the depot is too far away it won't find it, there is a limit on the distance it'll travel to a depot for servicing
11:20:53  <peter1138> yeah, it's related to pathfinding
11:21:31  <peter1138> iirc
11:21:38  <xiong> How far is too far? My depot sidings have 14-tile approaches.
11:22:01  <Yexo> IIRC 16 tiles, but not really sure
11:22:14  <Yexo> oh, and any other pathfinder penalties in between may reduce that distance
11:22:29  <peter1138> curves, signals...
11:22:35  <peter1138> probably the depot itself :p
11:22:42  <xiong> Oh dear. Perhaps with the diagonals, I hit 16 tiles. And certainly, there are signals on the approaches.
11:23:51  <dihedral> depots have a signal built in, do they not?
11:23:54  <Yexo> try "set yapf.maximum_go_to_depot_penalty" in the console and increase the value
11:24:16  <Yexo> "set yapf.maximum_go_to_depot_penalty" queries the value, "set yapf.maximum_go_to_depot_penalty <new_value>" changes it
11:24:21  <xiong> So, this is Bad. I'm building for 12-tile-max trains. So if I want interval servicing, I will have to shorten the approach tracks and a train waiting (for another train to leave depot) will have its caboose stuck out on the main.
11:25:00  * xiong tries
11:25:14  <SmatZ> also, the search is not run at each tick
11:25:19  <SmatZ> (at least, it used not to be)
11:25:38  <xiong> ?? It is not possible to paste from clipboard to the console?
11:25:59  <SmatZ> worksforme
11:26:08  <SmatZ> select text by mouse, middle click to paste
11:26:19  <SmatZ> depends on your system :)
11:26:59  <peter1138> reserved paths interfere with the search, don't they?
11:27:49  <SmatZ> good idea :)
11:28:39  <xiong> Well, that did the trick!
11:28:53  <xiong> Yexo++ # for the win
11:31:44  <xiong> I suppose the hazard in setting this too high is that a train may wander the map heading for a distant depot. I'll fiddle with it until I find a satisfactory minimum.
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11:33:05  <xiong> No joy with the middle-click, SmatZ. Not important. I should change this in my openttd.cfg anyway.
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11:33:29  <Yexo> xiong: set_newgame changes the value in your config file
11:33:43  <Yexo> no need to open your config file in a separate program
11:34:36  <xiong> Yes, Yexo; but it's easier for me to edit using common tools, than to master yet another interface that is almost, but not quite, like bash.
11:35:55  <xiong> I have a whole user interface philosophy, that may not be the same as yours. I'd rather use a relatively small number of tools consistently and well than a large number poorly. As it is, I use dozens on a regular basis.
11:36:08  <xiong> I'm trying to avoid hundreds.
11:37:17  <xiong> I have always argued that, for instance, there is no need for a scenario editor in simple games like Sim City -- or rather, that the scenario editor can exist and even be full-featured but that it should have an import/export feature, too.
11:38:49  <xiong> So, you can create a map, including terrain and so forth, as a simple GIF or indexed PNG, with the palette representing the various values a tile may assume. No good, perhaps, for fine detail; but excellent for broad work to use proven, general tools, like The Gimp.
11:40:21  <xiong> The smartest thing Apple ever did was to include basic text editing in the Macintosh Toolbox, so that every text editing field, everywhere, worked exactly the same (except when some bonehead had to roll his own).
11:41:23  <xiong> Well, my problem is solved and Thank You very much. I'm trying to roll out a wiki page on the topic of industrial service and I'll get back to that now.
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12:14:13  <Eddi|zuHause> wtf was that? i'm away for an hour and the channel goes rampant?
12:14:58  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i have never used the doulbe deck coaches grf
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12:30:51  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: yes. But you replied there concerning this somewhat funny savegame. And yes, I see that, too, that cargodist game cannot be loaded and no version is given.
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12:32:54  <Eddi|zuHause> bah... i'm bored... i don't want to code an export as excel file in python, even though (or because?) the job is fairly trivial...
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12:43:15  <dihedral> :-D
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13:17:47  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: yexo * r22047 /trunk/src/order_backup.cpp: -Fix: selling a vehicle triggered the assert added in r22041
13:26:23  <dihedral> can you not create a factory method for those things?
13:27:42  <dihedral> then the checks is done in the factory method and you do not have to bother with them any longer
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13:31:25  <Rubidium> dihedral: you mean Factory->Construct()->doSomething() really works when Factory->Construct() return NULL?
13:32:23  <Rubidium> or... should Factory->Construct() "detonate", i.e. crash the game with a message: can't allocate stuff anymore?
13:32:31  <dihedral> http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/changeset/22047/
13:32:36  <dihedral> i was looking at that
13:33:19  <Rubidium> yeah, that's the exception: the one and only place where it doesn't do something with the just created object
13:33:30  <dihedral> ok :)
13:33:34  <Rubidium> although... new can't return NULL in C++, unless you do some other tricks
13:33:50  <dihedral> that is why the factory method
13:34:07  <dihedral> check if can be allocated, or return null
13:35:19  <Rubidium> but that actually makes things harder
13:35:28  <Rubidium> as you'd need to template that factory method
13:35:42  <Rubidium> otherwise it won't return the right class
13:35:53  <dihedral> yep
13:35:54  <Rubidium> and then you've got problems with constructor parameters
13:36:00  <dihedral> ah
13:36:04  <Rubidium> so you can't use a templated factory
13:36:10  <Rubidium> so you have to manually write all factories
13:37:00  <Rubidium> so you basically add a lot of small functions that do nothing more than return CanAllocate() ? new Foo() : NULL;
13:37:11  <dihedral> i thought they could be templated or overridden in the cases where they cannot be templated
13:37:13  <Rubidium> and you'd need to check for NULL later on
13:37:47  <Rubidium> even then, most pool items are constructed in Cmd* methods, which are usually ran in test and execute mode
13:38:21  <Rubidium> so you don't want to actually execute in the test run, meaning you still have to add the CanAllocate to your normal functions, making the factory actually doing duplicate work
13:38:44  <dihedral> heh
13:39:09  <Rubidium> the only thing r22041 did is add a check to the current "factory", which only allocates the memory, that there has actually been a test for allocating that memory
13:39:13  <dihedral> thankfully things are not multithreaded :-D
13:40:05  <Rubidium> things are, just a lock is held when the game state is queried/updated
13:40:20  <Rubidium> (with SDL the drawing happens in a seperate thread)
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13:41:49  <dihedral> yes, but the drawing does not allocate new pool items does it?
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13:42:32  <Rubidium> dihedral: true
13:43:49  <dihedral> that would probably be quite nasty if you had multithreading and test and execute statges and checks in tests but not in execute :-P
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13:46:04  <Eddi|zuHause> which is why you can't just make an existing program multithreaded. you need different design principles
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14:00:35  <dihedral> Client: "The server is slow, can you please check it?"
14:00:42  <dihedral> Me: "everything looks normal"
14:00:59  <dihedral> Client: "But everything is so slow, even Outlook and Adobe Reader"
14:01:01  <dihedral> ...
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14:08:47  <peter1138> welcome to IT
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14:11:05  <dihedral> i must find better clients :-P
14:11:19  <dihedral> but people who know what they are doing will not pay that cash for the servers :-D
14:14:41  <peter1138> exactly
14:18:18  <Belugas> hello
14:18:36  <__ln__> hello
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14:46:31  <fjb> Moin
14:46:43  <avdg> moin
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15:04:54  <supermop> hello
15:05:56  <dihedral> grr - channel #openttd.notice stops me from renaming to DIHEDRAL
15:06:16  <dihedral> :-P
15:21:34  <glx> dihedral: use /ns identify for that
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15:23:09  <peter1138> /ns ?
15:23:26  <glx> msg nickserv
15:30:47  <dihedral> ah :-)
15:30:55  <dihedral> good to know :-)
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15:56:42  <Ammler> what is in .notice, what is not here?
15:58:37  <Yexo> only commits
15:58:37  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: glx * r22048 /trunk/src/articulated_vehicles.cpp: -Fix (r4495): company 0 does not always exist, so put temporary vehicles in a valid company
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16:14:10  <jack> hello
16:14:22  <ZirconiumX> hello....?
16:14:46  <jack> i have a question, i just loaded open ttd on my linux OS and i havent played ttd in quite some time, how to play against the computer?
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16:15:04  <ZirconiumX> Open openttd
16:15:10  <jack> ok
16:15:24  <jack> alright its open
16:15:24  <ZirconiumX> on the main menu go to Check online content
16:15:47  <jack> ok
16:15:51  <ZirconiumX> In the top right hand corner there is a box
16:16:02  <ZirconiumX> click it and type AI
16:16:14  <ZirconiumX> Download one of the results
16:16:48  <jack> alright
16:16:55  <ZirconiumX> then click the X at the top of the window (in openttd, not openttd)
16:17:18  <ZirconiumX> Then do the stuff for New game
16:17:26  <ZirconiumX> that'll get you going
16:17:49  <jack> alright!
16:17:50  <jack> thanks!
16:18:29  <ZirconiumX> ;-) I try to help
16:18:51  <jack> well im off
16:18:52  <jack> cya!
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16:22:34  <ZirconiumX> Hmmm ^^
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17:25:24  <Chaot_s> Hi all, could someone help me with a signal problem i have? i build this setup, though it doesn't work... is the tutorial wrong? or am i stupid (i would expact the last one)
17:25:36  <Chaot_s> http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Presignal_Basics part 2 second picture
17:26:18  <planetmaker> the tutorial is ok
17:26:34  <planetmaker> "does not work" though is a description as vague as it can get
17:27:12  <SmatZ> Chaot_s: remember those signals by station are two-way exit signals
17:27:38  <Chaot_s> indeed. okay, when that setup is "flooded"  with trains, the train on the lower trac (B) leaves and drives to signal A
17:27:40  <planetmaker> white not yellow
17:28:03  <planetmaker> Chaot_s: that rather sounds like a problem with your network elsewhere.
17:28:04  <Chaot_s> seems i messed up then :D
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17:29:11  <Chaot_s> so a is yellow horizontal, B and C yellow vertical, and D normal 1 way.
17:31:29  <planetmaker> B and C is white vertical
17:31:44  <planetmaker> (exit signal)
17:32:08  <planetmaker> it will fail majorly with yellow vertical (combo signals)
17:32:27  <Chaot_s> indeed, been tryin this for 4 hours now :D
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17:33:53  <Chaot_s> then one other question, if i have 3 tunnels besides each other do those link the same way as a train station does?
17:34:20  <Chaot_s> in other words, can i presignal those the same way :)
17:34:52  <planetmaker> a tunnel is just a continuous piece of track in that sense. So if it works with normal tracks instead of tunnels, it works with tunnels
17:36:24  <Chaot_s> okay :) trying to figure out why trains stuf up waiting for 1 tunnel to becom fre whil 2 tunnels beside that one tunnel are free :)
17:36:41  <Chaot_s> thanx allready by the way :D
17:37:40  <planetmaker> you're welcome
17:38:06  <Chaot_s> only one thing i could complain about :D
17:38:15  <Chaot_s> the game is too damned adicting :D
17:38:17  <Chaot_s> lol
17:39:32  <planetmaker> hehe
17:40:03  <planetmaker> a good way to learn might be to join a multiplayer server. You could build your company but have a look how others build at the same time
17:41:12  <Chaot_s> i'm...
17:41:22  <Chaot_s> though they are total noobs :)
17:41:27  <Chaot_s> even i am better :D
17:41:55  <Chaot_s> they are real live friends though.
17:42:01  <planetmaker> depends on the server ;-)
17:42:18  <Chaot_s> my personal dedicated server :)
17:42:23  <Chaot_s> private :D
17:46:07  <planetmaker> Then you cannot learn much ;-)
17:46:20  <planetmaker> when you always play with / against the same ;-)
17:47:04  <Chaot_s> though when the game keeps as much fun as it is now i'll investigate the security of the game and host it on a dedicated box in the data center
17:47:39  <Chaot_s> i dont know if it's a risk.
17:47:55  <Chaot_s> i have an Rcon password set up, so that is not a roblem
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18:28:13  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22049 /trunk/src/road_map.h: -Codechange: Add assert condition to GetRoadOwner.
18:28:38  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22050 /trunk/src/saveload/vehicle_sl.cpp:
18:28:38  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: -Fix-ish [FS#4496]: in ancient savegames, e.g. TTO savegames, non primary
18:28:38  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: vehicles (wagons and such) could have unitnumbers or even orders. However, these
18:28:38  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: orders would not be updated when a station is removed. As such some savegames
18:28:38  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: have wagons with current orders to invalid stations which triggers trouble in
18:28:39  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: the load conversion. So, trash any orders/unitnumbers a non-primary vehicle has.
18:29:07  <Rubidium> oh shoot... consistency fail
18:32:20  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22051 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r21935): Roads under road stops would get a wrong owner after overbuilding.
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18:41:48  <Jack> Hello, I am using Open TTD on my linux OS system and i just downloaded the AI trans for the game.How do i initiate AI into the game? I can't figure out how to get it to work
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18:45:28  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: translators * r22052 /trunk/src/lang/catalan.txt:
18:45:28  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:28  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: catalan - 11 changes by arnau
18:46:23  <planetmaker> Jack: you might try the most obvious entry from the main menu
18:47:56  <Jack> i did the AI configuration but that even though i configured AItrans it didnt work when i went under new game
18:48:05  <Rubidium> planetmaker: what if he's using say 1.0.5?
18:48:26  <planetmaker> it has an AI entry there, too?
18:48:54  <Rubidium> hmm, was thinking about the "gear" menu
18:49:03  <planetmaker> "gear"?
18:49:19  <Jack> im using 1.0.5
18:49:33  <planetmaker> Jack: AIs will most possibly start a bit later than you. You set that delay in the AI config.
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18:49:44  <planetmaker> you also chose there how many companies there shall be at all.
18:49:52  <planetmaker> Did you set that to anything else than 0?
18:50:19  <Jack> i just checked that, it was set to 1 year
18:50:23  <Jack> that seemed to be the issue
18:50:32  <Rubidium> planetmaker: yes, the menu that looks like a gear with OpenGFX (or a wrench with the original graphics)
18:50:34  <Jack> alright thanks!
18:50:35  <planetmaker> and "didn't work" is quite vague... what does the AI window tell you from ingame
18:51:04  <planetmaker> Rubidium: in the main menu they all have the same button without graphics ;-)
18:51:21  <Jack> the cpu wouldnt start at the same time as i would when i started a new game. I couldn't find the other companies on the map
18:51:23  <planetmaker> but there are different main menus, I guess
18:51:56  <planetmaker> Jack: if you want the AI to start _now_ open the console and type "start_ai"
18:52:01  <planetmaker> without quotes
18:52:12  <Rubidium> in any case... I seem to be growing blind quickly
18:52:33  <planetmaker> well, main menu ingame != main menu general
18:52:38  <planetmaker> it IS ambigeous
18:53:34  <Rubidium> intro menu, gear menu, disk menu ;)
18:53:58  <Jack> i set it so the AI would show up after 1 day into the game and the AI still hasn't come up
18:54:32  <planetmaker> it needs time to think
18:54:48  <Rubidium> it's 1 day + some random range of (I believe) 30 days
18:55:04  <Rubidium> though... has the AI not come up, or has the AI just not built anything yet?
18:55:14  <planetmaker> also, if the AI doesn't suite you... you might try other AIs, too
18:55:34  <planetmaker> but most or all first need some time to think
18:55:49  <planetmaker> Or do you lay your first track already on January 1st the year you start the game?
18:56:03  <Jack> ah there we go
18:56:13  <Jack> you're right, he showed up 3 months later haha
18:56:22  <Jack> alright thanks a lot!
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18:57:03  <planetmaker> no problem
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18:59:50  <Prof_Frink> planetmaker: Yes. That's what F1's for.
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19:00:30  <planetmaker> ?
19:00:48  <planetmaker> the AI doesn't have that option obviously
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19:05:33  <andythenorth> evenings
19:06:17  <Terkhen> hi andythenorth
19:06:31  <andythenorth> can I have a new callback?
19:07:19  <planetmaker> salut andythenorth
19:07:25  <planetmaker> Sorry, callbacks are out today :-P
19:07:25  <andythenorth> 15f: Show even more additional text in industry window
19:07:57  <andythenorth> basically a 'more info' thing for industries
19:08:05  <andythenorth> shows "whatever crap I choose to put there"
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19:09:23  <Hirundo> What's wrong with the existing CB?
19:09:36  <andythenorth> nothing
19:09:37  <andythenorth> it's awesome
19:09:55  <andythenorth> but if opening the industry window showed a small essay
19:09:58  <andythenorth> it might be offputting
19:10:27  <andythenorth> this would be a progressive disclosure thing
19:11:15  *** `Fuco` [~dota.keys@188.123.106.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:11:31  <Hirundo> If you can't tell what you need to say it in a few lines of text, FIRS is becoming too complex :)
19:11:49  <andythenorth> well yes
19:12:01  <andythenorth> in fact, we could start a thread about that
19:12:09  <andythenorth> "Is FIRS getting too complex"
19:12:15  <andythenorth> maybe I could alphabetise it
19:12:29  <andythenorth> I just fancied showing 'other crap'
19:12:48  <andythenorth> stuff like, date industry built, total lifetime cargo production
19:12:55  <andythenorth> stuff that doesn't matter but some players might enjoy
19:13:14  <Hirundo> Add a parameter :)
19:13:22  <andythenorth> could work
19:13:29  <andythenorth> "Show extra crap"
19:13:57  <Hirundo> I guess a lot of people would enable that
19:13:57  * Prof_Frink votes (2i+7)
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20:18:37  <Mazur> Can anyone tell me when a bus stop starts accepting passengers, when it has started providing them (i.e. it has one house in the catchment).
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20:20:23  <Terkhen> Mazur: since houses usually accept 7/8 passengers, you need two houses in the catchment area
20:20:39  <Mazur> k.
20:21:12  <Terkhen> or a industry tile that accept 1/8 passengers
20:21:18  <Mazur> Su much for my brilliant scheme to make a pair of active bus stops close together by giving them each one house.
20:22:00  <Mazur> The (3/8 passengers) in a house info, is htat what it provies or accepts?
20:22:06  <Mazur> provides
20:23:01  <planetmaker> accepts
20:23:10  <planetmaker> it provides a number based on its population
20:24:04  <Mazur> Which is a city, whose centre is far away
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20:50:04  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22053 /trunk/src/misc_gui.cpp: -Fix: The land area information window was not updated after a language change.
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20:54:58  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22054 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Codechange: support for rounding the converted units to their closest integral value instead of flooring
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21:10:59  * andythenorth ponders how to fence industry tiles :|
21:11:39  *** `Fuco` [~dota.keys@188.123.106.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:12:01  <planetmaker> andythenorth: define child sprites
21:12:39  <andythenorth> I am thinking that I have to either (a) draw it into the tiles and duplicate the sprite sheets
21:12:52  <planetmaker> No, you don't. Just draw a fence
21:12:55  <andythenorth> or (b) duplicate the action 2s to have fence / no fence
21:13:04  <planetmaker> yes
21:13:08  <andythenorth> whether fenced or not varies by layout
21:13:12  <planetmaker> yes
21:14:06  <andythenorth> I don't like it when there's a fence between industry and station
21:14:08  <planetmaker> the sprite layout changes... I could programme you that meanwhile in NML, but have little clue about how to do it in NFO ;-)
21:14:14  <andythenorth> especially when using ISR
21:14:21  <andythenorth> I was thinking of making fences automagic
21:14:23  <planetmaker> you could check the adjacent tile
21:14:27  <andythenorth> yup
21:14:56  <andythenorth> but I need something like 4! variations of each action 2
21:14:59  <andythenorth> maybe a bit less
21:15:17  <andythenorth> I was trying to think of a CPP way to do it
21:15:44  <andythenorth> I first wanted to patch for it
21:15:50  <andythenorth> but there are no map bits free
21:16:01  <andythenorth> so it would have instead to be calculated every time the tile is drawn
21:16:10  <Yexo> perhaps some map bits can be freed?
21:16:21  <andythenorth>  I imagine calculating every time won't be allowed for performance reasons
21:16:30  <andythenorth> so instead I'll calculate it in nfo, which comes to the same :P
21:16:31  <Yexo> no idea if that's really possible, but it might be worth a look
21:17:01  <andythenorth> ideally a cb with bit mask would just set show fences on N / E / S / W edges of tile
21:17:20  <andythenorth> with some other method to set the sprites (probably put them in register)
21:17:22  <Yexo> however having such a cb implies it's stored in the map
21:17:32  <planetmaker> Yexo: but still it should remain newgrf-able. I see not where OpenTTD should make a decision there for the newgrf. Especially as everything is already exposed to the newgrf
21:17:50  <andythenorth> for me, I could probably figure out something in nfo
21:18:05  <andythenorth> but it will be clunky to code, a pain in the ass
21:18:12  <planetmaker> only thing which I can imagine is a general industry misc flag like 'draw fence around' 'draw no fence towards station' etc
21:18:12  <andythenorth> and it will be of no benefit to other sets
21:18:27  <andythenorth> why not just a cb on the tile?
21:18:51  <planetmaker> and it'd return?
21:18:57  <planetmaker> what exactly?
21:18:58  <andythenorth> bit stuffed value
21:19:04  <planetmaker> road? station? house?
21:19:09  <planetmaker> all quite valid
21:19:23  <andythenorth> for auto-magic you mean?
21:19:54  <andythenorth> auto-magic would be the responsibility of the newgrf
21:20:07  <andythenorth> the cb would just provide values to a patched drawing routine for the tile
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21:20:32  <andythenorth> quak
21:20:39  <andythenorth> he always turns up at the right moment :)
21:20:42  <andythenorth> it's very spooky
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21:20:50  <andythenorth> how does he do it?
21:21:55  * andythenorth does search for src that draws industry tile
21:22:38  <frosch123> andythenorth: you just discuss the stuff always at the same time
21:22:53  <andythenorth> you mean "after I've had a beer"
21:23:05  <andythenorth> at least it's not always the same stuff :P
21:27:03  <andythenorth> ach
21:27:04  <Belugas> beer...
21:27:15  <andythenorth> patching in the rail fences isn't straightforward :D
21:27:16  * Belugas wants
21:27:51  * andythenorth has :D
21:29:43  * Belugas would not dare beer at work
21:29:54  <Belugas> not before home heading
21:30:15  <Belugas> "yeah yeah... you've worked hard... I should believe that???"
21:31:18  * andythenorth has beer at work
21:31:22  <andythenorth> more often cider
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21:38:55  * andythenorth does read AddSortableSpriteToDraw
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21:39:06  <dihedral> LOL i was just wondering why on earth i was getting company stats and economy info in my bot on an empty game....
21:39:14  <dihedral> the game was running long enough for an AI to start!!
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21:39:41  <andythenorth> what a lot of parameters :P
21:40:59  <Alberth> dihedral: when a program surprises you like that, it's a sign it's perfect :)
21:41:29  <dihedral> ha!
21:41:57  <dihedral> :-)
21:42:03  <dihedral>  ^ mine has a nose ;-)
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21:45:11  <planetmaker> haha :-)
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21:48:42  <andythenorth> :o
21:48:54  <andythenorth> do newgrf industries have a different drawing routine to default industry?
21:49:46  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:52:38  <andythenorth> yah
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22:02:29  <Belugas> time to GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
22:02:34  <Belugas> night all :D
22:02:53  <dihedral> night Belugas
22:02:59  <Alberth> good night Belugas
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22:03:52  * andythenorth thinks few things are as simple as they look :P
22:04:00  <Terkhen> good night Belugas :)
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22:06:52  <andythenorth> what's the difference between a sprite and a child sprite?
22:06:56  <andythenorth> I'm reading DrawCommonTileSeq
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22:10:30  <planetmaker> andythenorth: a child sprites origin is relative to its 'mother' sprite
22:10:36  <planetmaker> and shares the bounding box
22:11:01  <andythenorth> so maybe fences would best be child sprites of the ground tile
22:11:28  <planetmaker> uhm... they have no bounding box. So: No
22:11:56  <andythenorth> oh
22:11:58  <andythenorth> ok :)
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22:12:13  <planetmaker> (or I'm wrong, but they definitely have no height, so complicated)
22:12:59  <andythenorth> ok
22:13:11  <andythenorth> if they were child sprites of the building that has certain issues
22:13:22  <andythenorth> maybe they should just be sprites
22:13:54  <andythenorth> I can 1/4 see what needs to be done
22:14:48  <planetmaker> andythenorth: they need to become part of the tile layout.
22:15:33  <andythenorth> so patching DrawTileLayout
22:15:36  <planetmaker> which can have ground sprite(s), building sprite(s) and child sprites. The building sprite defines the actual bounding box
22:15:41  <andythenorth> to add them to the sprite group
22:15:54  <planetmaker> I hope I don't tell rubish here ;-)
22:16:07  <andythenorth> it makes sense to me
22:16:16  <andythenorth> but I could be as deluded as you :)
22:16:23  <planetmaker> It's what I gathered when trying to understand how it works in NML ;-)
22:16:41  <andythenorth> I'm not sure where is appropriate to patch, but DrawTileLayout seems best
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22:20:18  <andythenorth> patching DrawNewGRFTileSeq looks wrong
22:20:27  <andythenorth> too far downstream
22:22:00  <andythenorth> is TileLayoutSpriteGroup what comes back from the action 2?
22:24:02  <Hirundo> That is the internal equivalent of a tile layout action2
22:24:47  <andythenorth> is it a thing I can append / insert into?
22:26:38  <Hirundo> That'd affect all *things* that use that action2
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22:27:04  <Yexo> and no, you can't easily append things to that
22:27:12  <andythenorth> ok
22:27:15  <Hirundo> I doubt that they're intended to be mutable
22:27:35  <Yexo> you could create a copy with some added sprites, but then you'd have to take care that the copy is freed again
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22:28:58  <andythenorth> const DrawTileSprites *dts = group->dts;
22:29:11  <andythenorth> I could modify dts?
22:30:52  <andythenorth> basically I need to figure out whether to modify what's passed to DrawNewGRFTileSeq()
22:31:01  <andythenorth> or whether to try and  draw the sprites myself directly
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22:34:48  <planetmaker> andythenorth: "alcohol": is it only beverages or also an industrial use product?
22:35:02  <andythenorth> beverages only
22:35:17  <andythenorth> industrial product would be chemicals
22:35:30  <andythenorth> and the ethanol plant doesn't produce it :P
22:35:52  <Yexo> andythenorth: same as for TileLayoutSpriteGroup, you can't modify it
22:36:11  <andythenorth> so I guess I would have to draw my own sprites
22:36:14  <Rubidium> it's a waste product
22:36:38  <__ln__> andythenorth: will such a newgrf be legal in an islamic country?
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22:37:08  <andythenorth> dunno
22:37:30  <andythenorth> but eating cows is a problem in india
22:37:41  <andythenorth> eating pigs is a problem in israel
22:38:03  <andythenorth> and some people think making petrol from ethanol is immoral :P
22:38:11  <andythenorth> meanwhile others are opposed to coal mining
22:38:19  <andythenorth> my grf is amoral :)
22:39:55  <SmatZ> what a waste of delicious ethanol!
22:39:56  <SmatZ> ;-)
22:40:10  <SmatZ> I didn't know one can make petrol from ethanol
22:40:24  <andythenorth> I'm wrong :)
22:40:25  <Rubidium> my point was more that ethanol is essentially waste product of yeast
22:40:27  <andythenorth> I should go to bed
22:40:30  <andythenorth> no no no
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22:40:45  <SmatZ> :-)
22:40:47  <Rubidium> your baby doesn't want you to go yet
22:41:02  <andythenorth> this is a waste product of yeast http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmite
22:41:03  <supermop> good evening
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22:41:10  <supermop> firs?
22:41:20  <andythenorth> they're a kind of tree
22:41:29  <andythenorth> popular in scandanavia, and at christmas time
22:41:55  <supermop> spruce?
22:45:17  <andythenorth> is fencing industry tiles worth while?
22:45:40  <Rubidium> "it's realistic"
22:46:15  <andythenorth> well...maybe
22:46:18  <supermop> depends on the industry i'd say
22:46:18  <andythenorth> does it look better?
22:48:14  <andythenorth> I could just draw some tiles with fences on four sides, like default paper mill
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22:50:47  <andythenorth> planetmaker: any opinions on fences?
22:51:05  <andythenorth> I think you made the comment about FIRS matching landscape?
22:51:16  <andythenorth> that's what instigated this...
22:57:26  *** xiong [~xiong@netblock-68-183-230-85.dslextreme.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:07:27  <planetmaker> andythenorth: I don't mind fences when they make sense
23:08:08  <planetmaker> Not every industry needs it, but some yes
23:08:29  <andythenorth> especially where there are a lot of empty tiles....
23:10:36  <andythenorth> I think the right answer is to patch for a cb
23:10:46  <supermop> a forest doesn't really need it
23:10:49  <andythenorth> but I suspect I'll end up finding an nfo way to do it
23:10:54  <Terkhen> good night
23:11:05  <supermop> in fack, I would say arable fields do not either
23:11:22  <supermop> pastures do, so do open pit mines
23:12:08  <andythenorth> good night
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23:13:26  <planetmaker> good night
23:14:05  <SmatZ> good night planetmaker
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