Config
Log for #openttd on 2nd April 2011:
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00:31:36  <DanMacK> Hey all
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02:02:56  <supermop> hello
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03:11:29  <Chris_Booth> hi Alle
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04:43:24  <Chris_Booth> I am sorry, but the colour have been anoying me for a few months now so I have added them to FA
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04:43:26  <Chris_Booth> FA
04:43:35  <Chris_Booth> if you need more details please ask me
04:44:46  <Chris_Booth> the 2 colours that I have given you images for you can't see the diffenerce for on any screen that I use
04:45:03  <Chris_Booth> so please as me for more information
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06:25:59  <andythenorth> morning
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06:33:59  <Rubidium> moi andy
06:47:40  <planetmaker> moin
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06:59:03  * andythenorth does grumble
06:59:49  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you know that you'll need an almost-flat map for a 10x15 industry to find a location?
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07:01:03  <andythenorth> with widely spaced towns, and widely spaced objects, industries, other immovables
07:01:05  <andythenorth> and low water
07:01:39  <andythenorth> and maximum height difference of 1 tile across that 10x15 area
07:03:05  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes. plenty of ways to get those ;)
07:03:16  <andythenorth> terraform :P
07:03:21  <andythenorth> with magic bulldozer cheat
07:03:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i think the industry code already terraforms +/-1 level across the whole industry area
07:03:45  <Eddi|zuHause> on map generation
07:03:50  <andythenorth> it will try and level a platform yes
07:04:04  <andythenorth> in many cases that's no possible due to construction further / up down a slope
07:04:14  <andythenorth> ach
07:04:20  <andythenorth> I don't know why I'm arguing
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07:04:43  <andythenorth> the general opinion of a lot of (wrong) people seems to be that industries are not large enough
07:05:04  <andythenorth> :P
07:05:42  <andythenorth> it's also completely inappropriate for a fully loaded 747 to land / take off in 6 tiles
07:05:55  <andythenorth> and as for the problem with trains and depots...
07:06:00  <andythenorth> :|
07:06:06  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, there's no such thing as a "to scale" industry
07:06:23  <andythenorth> that's the way it should be :D
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07:06:46  <andythenorth> good toys use selective compression of some elements
07:07:25  * andythenorth should have slept more and will now get off high horse before falling off
07:07:39  <andythenorth> hmm
07:07:55  <andythenorth> it would be nice to plant some appropriate fields around sheep and dairy farms
07:08:06  <andythenorth> but I think that project has died permanently :)
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07:30:46  <Terkhen> good morning
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09:16:41  <Wolf01> hello
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09:18:25  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
09:20:41  <Mazur> Good
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10:02:58  <andythenorth> frosch123: extended sprite layout isn't in 1.1 is it?
10:03:04  <andythenorth> in case I missed it somewhere?
10:03:14  <planetmaker> not
10:05:24  <frosch123> no, it is not finsihed yet
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10:10:45  <andythenorth> ok
10:10:58  <andythenorth> I shall not do any FIRS date-specific graphics yet then
10:10:59  <andythenorth> :)
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10:29:30  <st6> is there a way to fix mouse lagging in the game?
10:29:50  <st6> or is it just a fps thing or something
10:30:31  <SmatZ> if you see the game has low fps, then your mouse will be seemingly lagging
10:30:41  <planetmaker> it doesn't lag here, so... ^
10:31:11  <planetmaker> thus if the map you play pushes the cpu core the game runs on to 100%, you'll perceive a lag
10:31:25  <Alberth> there have been discussions about that in the forums, perhaps that gives you an idea of what is happening
10:32:17  <st6> ill check it out
10:38:19  <SmatZ> Chris_Booth: "All windows trunks on my screen hace this issue." does it mean stable versions don't have that problem? or - 1.0 was ok, but 1.1 has that problem?
10:38:56  <SmatZ> also, why did you set the severity to "critical"
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10:43:31  <V453000> SmatZ: it is _his_ screen so it is critical :P
10:43:38  <frosch123> i don't think Chris_Booth is complaining about something new. the colours are just hard to distinguish for small lines
10:43:53  <frosch123> it's not even about colour blindness :p
10:44:13  <frosch123> we could increase the width of the lines
10:44:32  <frosch123> (that is for that graphs; no idea for minimap)
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10:48:45  <DanMacK> Hey andy
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11:10:04  <andythenorth> hey DanMacK
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11:56:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22288 /trunk/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Deduplicate Blitter_8bppBase::DrawLine() and Blitter_32bppBase::DrawLine() into Blitter::DrawLine().
11:56:56  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22289 /trunk/projects/ (4 files): -Fix (r22288): Forgot project files.
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13:25:02  <frosch123> Chris_Booth: http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/LinesTrunk.png http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/Lines1.png <- better?
13:41:53  <Chris_Booth> yes much better frosch123
13:42:32  <Chris_Booth> i like the second one best
13:44:10  <frosch123> err, the first one is unmodified trunk :p
13:44:52  <SmatZ> I totally overlooked the gray (?) company in the graph :)
13:45:43  <frosch123> imo gray is easier than the blueish one :)
13:50:38  <SmatZ> true :)
13:50:46  <SmatZ> maybe we should get back to the 8 companies limit
13:50:48  <confound> the second is better
13:50:56  <SmatZ> and choose only 8 well distinguishable colours :)
13:51:13  <Chris_Booth> yeah line wieght isn't a huge issue
13:51:25  <Chris_Booth> but when in chat and you have 2 yellow is annoying
13:51:27  <Chris_Booth> and confusing
13:53:27  <frosch123> for the chat we could put the company icon (?) in front of the message?
13:53:37  <frosch123> otoh, i thought coop has only one colour anyway :p
13:59:26  <Chris_Booth> yes it is frosch123 but when playing on other servers such as the welcome server on coop
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13:59:48  <Chris_Booth> when I choose orange and someone choose yellow we look the same
14:00:11  <frosch123> damn, i still make more money with 3 planes than 14 ais :s
14:01:58  <Chris_Booth> ais frosch123?
14:02:12  <frosch123> "AIs"
14:02:25  <frosch123> i need a graph with 15 of the 16 colours :p
14:02:33  <Chris_Booth> aaah I see
14:10:26  <frosch123> http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/CargoGraph_ThinDark.png http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/CargoGraph_ThinBright.png http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/CargoGraph_ThickDark.png http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/CargoGraph_ThickBright.png
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14:12:36  <frosch123> hmm, nah, bright is bad. it makes orange look like yellow
14:12:44  <frosch123> it does not match the colours in the legend
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14:24:48  <Cursarion> hi
14:25:05  <Cursarion> I have Fedora 12 and OpenTTD 1.0.3
14:25:38  <Cursarion> apparently this version of Fedora can't update stuff from repos anymore (or something). How should I update, and to what version if I want to get on 1.0.5 server?
14:26:01  <Cursarion> can a newer version client connect to an older version server?
14:26:03  <frosch123> if you want to join a server the versions need to match exactly
14:27:03  <frosch123> http://binaries.openttd.org/releases/ <- you can get old versions from there
14:27:07  <Cursarion> okay
14:27:08  <Cursarion> thanks
14:27:40  <frosch123> try the linux-generic ones
14:28:17  <ccfreak2k> frosch123, how about hilighting a particular line (perhaps by drawing a thicker line behind it) when the cursor is over any company on the key?
14:28:34  <frosch123> ccfreak2k: you can aswell toggle them by clicking
14:28:40  <Alberth> Cursarion: F12 is not maintained any more by Fedora
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14:48:05  <leanden> Howdy
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15:08:11  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22290 /trunk/src/blitter/base.cpp: -Codechange: Somewhat deduplicate one line of code.
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16:16:04  <Eddi|zuHause> gnah, generic buffers is not groundtile agnostic...
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16:17:54  <st6> where does giant screenshot save to?
16:21:00  <glx> Cursarion: and you may want to use openttd 1.1.0 (latest stable release)
16:21:04  <DanMacK> OTTD folder in Mydocuments usually
16:21:47  <glx> good luck when opening a giant screensot :)
16:25:55  <Eddi|zuHause> it's usually fine for anything <= 256x256 ;)
16:27:04  <Eddi|zuHause> you usually get in trouble when the "raw" (uncompressed) image gets in regions of >2GB
16:29:41  <Eddi|zuHause> bÀh... i seem to be too tired... the whole forum is just gibberish today...
16:30:46  <frosch123> how does you mood influence the content of the forums? :)
16:31:54  <Eddi|zuHause> dunno, kinda was expecting it was my fault :p
16:32:47  <frosch123> accepted. finally i have someone to blame when the forums turn bad
16:33:00  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: not the content, but my perception thereof.
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16:39:54  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22291 /trunk/src/ (blitter/base.cpp blitter/base.hpp gfx.cpp gfx_func.h): -Add: a linewidth argument to GfxDrawLine() and Blitter::DrawLine().
16:40:18  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22292 /trunk/src/graph_gui.cpp: -Change: Increase the linewidth in plots.
16:42:05  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: definitely one of those kind of days
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16:43:47  * andythenorth wonders why people need all these insanely big stations
16:43:53  <andythenorth> and huge queues of trains
16:43:55  <LordAro> moin all
16:43:55  <Cursarion> glx: for going to 1.0.5 server?
16:43:59  <Cursarion> maybe when the server updates
16:44:15  <confound> andythenorth: how big is 'insanely big'?
16:44:20  <glx> of course you need the same version
16:44:21  <andythenorth> dunno
16:44:23  <andythenorth> just big
16:44:36  <confound> do you think 6x6 is big?
16:44:53  <andythenorth> 7 platforms is big
16:44:56  <andythenorth> for a single industry
16:45:05  <andythenorth> and of little benefit
16:45:24  <confound> single primary industry?
16:45:32  <andythenorth> appears to be
16:45:38  <confound> 7x1? :)
16:45:44  <andythenorth> 7xn
16:45:50  <andythenorth> I can't be bothered to count :P
16:45:57  <andythenorth> ach
16:46:01  <Alberth> I do that to make sure all trains serving that industry have a platform
16:46:04  <andythenorth> it's a question of style I guess
16:46:30  <confound> I never end up with more than 3 for a primary industry
16:46:36  <andythenorth> I usually have 1
16:46:40  <confound> 4 if I send a supply train there
16:46:45  <confound> er, I meant 2 and 3, not 3 and 4
16:47:15  <Alberth> indeed, I normally have only a few trains waiting
16:47:25  <andythenorth> 2 platforms + escape depot for me
16:47:37  <andythenorth> it's enough to keep station rating up most of the time
16:47:38  <Alberth> it is just a safe guard that trains have a place when production decreases
16:47:46  <andythenorth> ah
16:47:53  * andythenorth never has production decrease ;)
16:48:03  <confound> yeah, 2 for filling + waiting, 3rd for supply
16:48:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i have 5 platforms at one industry right now (2 unloading, 3 loading), and 6 platforms covering 3 industries
16:48:55  <Eddi|zuHause> transfer stations tend to get huge
16:49:17  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: 2 unloading + 3 loading makes sense
16:49:27  <andythenorth> and 6 per 3 also
16:49:39  <andythenorth> hey ho
16:50:07  <andythenorth> for example, this strikes me as odd: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=142894
16:50:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i lied. it's now 7 for 4 industries...
16:51:14  <confound> andythenorth: which, the livestock loading?
16:51:19  <andythenorth> looks like it
16:51:26  <andythenorth> 7 platforms for one farm?
16:51:31  <confound> that might be two stations
16:51:33  <andythenorth> plus a huge 'escape yard'
16:51:52  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: if you compute platforms/industry, it gets better :)
16:52:00  <confound> yeah I have no idea what's going on there
16:52:11  <andythenorth> hmm
16:52:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that's cheating, because one of the industries is a sink only.
16:52:49  * andythenorth finds that RVs and ships are much more efficient on space vs. rating  vs. transported amount
16:53:14  * andythenorth is also now fed up of reports that FIRS is broken with Chill's patch
16:53:21  <andythenorth> what am I supposed to do about that? :P
16:53:31  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's totally not true when you're not using HEQS and FISH :p
16:53:45  <Alberth> if only you could stack trains onto each other like ships :)
16:53:47  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: complain that the patch is broken
16:53:51  <andythenorth> well not using them would be like choosing to smoke bad crack
16:54:00  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the patch is broken ;)
16:54:09  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it should get the cargo names which have TE_GOODS set, and not just assume it's called "goods"
16:55:21  <Alberth> andythenorth: ask a moderator to move the posts to Chillcore's patch thread :)
16:55:32  <andythenorth> that's where they are :)
16:55:38  <andythenorth> but I keep getting asked about it
16:55:49  <andythenorth> I have posted in that thread with eddi's answer
16:56:15  <andythenorth> does the game ship with some default trams?
16:56:40  <Eddi|zuHause> no
16:56:44  <andythenorth> should it?
16:56:48  <Eddi|zuHause> no
16:56:51  <andythenorth> ok
16:57:00  <andythenorth> next issue :)
16:57:29  * Eddi|zuHause considers implementing "scale industry production with daylength". but not today... someone remind me tomorrow.
16:57:37  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: which forum gibberish did you find?
16:57:58  <Eddi|zuHause> plenty
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16:58:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i think the suggestions forum was the worst...
16:58:41  <andythenorth> I usually regret going in there
16:58:48  <andythenorth> the problems forum even more so
17:03:27  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: suggestions forum is good, consider what would happen if all those users would post the suggestions elsewhere :p
17:04:07  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i meant: the amount of gibberish is even higher than usual
17:05:55  <Alberth> after 'problems', 'suggestions' is the first form of participation :)
17:06:50  <Alberth> where you don't have such concrete things like in 'problems' :)
17:07:06  <DanMacK> I have a hard problem wading through the Development forum sometimes
17:08:40  <supermop> i like reading suggestions,
17:08:50  <supermop> rarely read general or problems
17:10:59  * Alberth mostly reads by scanning topic titles
17:12:55  <frosch123> supermop: but they repeat every month? so you can only enjoy them for one month in your life
17:14:09  <supermop> ocassionally someone has a different perspective on an idea,
17:14:21  <supermop> and there are a lot of new people in there
17:16:46  * DanMacK has to admit though, some of the suggestions are pretty silly
17:18:08  <DanMacK> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=53753 comes to mind...
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17:38:59  <Ruudjah> I tried upgrading to 1.1.0. So I removed 1.05 from Ubuntu software center, downloaded the ubuntu 10.04 32bits .deb file and ran it. It opened up ubuntu sofwtare center, but it says "Dependency is not satisfiable: liblzma1 (>= 4.999.9beta) "
17:39:21  <Ruudjah> how to workaround?
17:39:40  <andythenorth> DanMacK: I liked that suggestion
17:39:49  <andythenorth> it's at least a creative hack on the game engine
17:39:59  <andythenorth> rather than yet another boring train nerd request :D
17:42:07  <DanMacK> lol, true
17:42:28  <Ruudjah> planetmaker: how is NML going along?
17:42:28  <andythenorth> why he wants it I can't fathom
17:42:38  * DanMacK pictures an F1 track as part of the future "Tourist" mod for FIRS
17:42:45  <DanMacK> called FIRST
17:43:09  <andythenorth> ho
17:43:13  <andythenorth> racetrack
17:43:16  <andythenorth> not a bad industry
17:43:28  <andythenorth> I have thought of numerous entirely 'other' industry chains
17:43:42  <andythenorth> a lifestyle / sports chain for example
17:43:53  <andythenorth> you would ship racehorses, f1 cars, sports teams
17:44:02  <andythenorth> burgers, merchandise
17:44:06  <andythenorth> bribes
17:44:20  <andythenorth> soft drinks, alcohol
17:44:24  <Mazur> Deutsche Bahn is going to run ICE3 trains to the UK.
17:44:41  <Mazur> I did not know that.
17:44:42  <andythenorth> 'we need tunnels under water' :P
17:45:23  <Mazur> Well, there are some tunnels in that direction, I believe they might utilise tose.
17:46:05  <Eddi|zuHause> Mazur: yes, they're trying to get the ICE3 approved for the Eurotunnel [where TGV/Eurostar has currently a monopoly]
17:47:39  <Mazur> Proposed trajectory through A'dam, nice.  Would give me a fast connection  through London.
17:47:44  <Mazur> to London
17:47:50  <Eddi|zuHause> "Peking's air is now 'crazy bad' quality after it got so bad it triggered an easter egg in the american embassy's measurement software"
17:50:05  <Eddi|zuHause> Mazur: i think it's still a few years to go.
17:50:10  <frosch123> Ruudjah: install liblzma resp. libxz
17:50:18  <Mazur> Of course.
17:50:32  <Mazur> Still, quite interesting.
17:50:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Mazur: part of the problem is that the requirement rules for trains through the eurotunnel are pretty much designed to only include the eurostar :p
17:51:29  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. "train of 800m length must be passable from front to back". where every other train of this length in europe would usually consist of two separate units
17:52:02  <Ruudjah> sudo apt-get install liblzma -> unable to locate package liblzma
17:52:07  <Ruudjah> same for libxz
17:52:22  <Eddi|zuHause> Ruudjah: lzma2?
17:52:25  <andythenorth> randomising cc use on stations - means making some custom recolor sprites?
17:53:16  <frosch123> the debian package is called liblzma2
17:53:18  <Ruudjah> lzma2 same
17:54:27  <Ruudjah> liblzma2 -> liblzma2 is already the newest version.
17:54:50  <Ruudjah> so openttd points to liblzma1, and I have liblzma2
17:55:02  <Eddi|zuHause> Ruudjah: openttd needs liblzma2
17:55:03  <Ruudjah> liblzma1 not in apt repo
17:55:05  <Mazur> Well, the French and English wanted to have an easy monopoly on the tunnel, I suppose.
17:55:16  <Eddi|zuHause> liblzma1 is outdated/incompatible
17:55:33  <frosch123> afaik the ubuntu binaries are build on a ubuntu vm, so i am suprised it does not have the needed librarise
17:55:33  <Mazur> It will eventually bite them in the back.
17:55:42  <Ruudjah> Eddi|zuHause: Ubuntu software center says: "Dependency is not satisfiable: liblzma1 (>= 4.999.9beta) " when opening the 32bit ubuntu 1.1.0 deb
17:56:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Ruudjah: that looks like a bug
17:56:27  <planetmaker> Ruudjah: NML is working mostly fine. But it has not yet full coverage of all features
17:56:51  <planetmaker> but it's being worked on. Sometimes more, sometimes less
17:56:57  <planetmaker> good evening also :-)
17:57:02  <Ruudjah> :)
17:57:31  <Eddi|zuHause> Ruudjah: you should probably report that to someone who is interested.
17:57:39  <Ruudjah> what?
17:57:44  <Eddi|zuHause> let's call him "wayne" :p
17:58:06  <frosch123> Ruudjah: well, try the linux-generic one then
17:58:16  <frosch123> it seems to statically link liblzma
17:59:06  <frosch123> (at least ldd does not list it)
17:59:35  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, linux-generic should statically link most of the things
18:00:06  <Ruudjah> ah, that seems to work, it does not have an installer though :(
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18:01:10  <Ruudjah> actually that doesnt work at all
18:01:23  <Ruudjah> I unzipped it into a folder, double clicked openttd but nothing happens
18:02:50  <LordAro> Terkhen: (mingw) it would appear that the zlib installation is failing
18:03:26  <Ruudjah> well
18:03:44  <Ruudjah> no wonder I get "Dependency is not satisfiable: liblzma1 (>= 4.999.9beta) ", i downloaded 10.04 while I ave 10.10
18:03:51  <Ruudjah> 10.10 works as expected
18:04:07  <Ruudjah> generic doesnt though
18:06:17  <supermop> how do trees know to clump together by species in ottd?
18:06:37  <supermop> do they have some sort of callback to check neighboring trees?
18:07:53  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: afair tree growth is usually by "plant same species in adjacent tile", in some rarer instances "place random tree in random tile"
18:08:15  <Eddi|zuHause> except in rainforest, then the latter version dominates
18:08:35  <supermop> ok
18:08:56  <supermop> so its not just in my head, there is a tendency for trees to clump
18:09:02  <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
18:09:23  <supermop> there can be 2 or 4 trees per tile?
18:09:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i think up to 5
18:10:09  <supermop> can there me more than one of same species in same tile?
18:10:41  <supermop> i am trying to think out the practicality of tall grass or reeds growing as a type of tree
18:10:48  <Eddi|zuHause> there is only one species stored, the rest is by some pseudo-random calculation
18:11:16  <supermop> trees don't care about altitude or slope?
18:11:26  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the "uneven" territory has nothing to do with trees
18:11:55  <supermop> so no way to have hills prefer pines, and lowlands prefer deciduous
18:12:01  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a "no tree growths above heightlevel X" patch around
18:12:17  <supermop> but it is one treeline for all species
18:12:21  <frosch123> supermop: topic climate does that
18:12:25  <frosch123> *tropic
18:12:36  <supermop> yeah?