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Log for #openttd on 3rd April 2011:
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03:10:03  <DanMacK> Hey all
03:18:06  <Markk> Hoi.
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03:57:19  <supermop> hello
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07:02:19  <andythenorth> how viable is patching docks to use company colour transform?
07:09:16  <andythenorth> seems to be lines 2641 - 2653 in station_cmd.cpp
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07:15:32  <LordAro> moin all
07:20:41  <planetmaker> andythenorth: got dock CC sprite for me?
07:21:08  <planetmaker> best a grf which replaces the dock with CC sprites (actionA)?
07:23:10  <planetmaker> I'm also quite sure you rather want to modify table/sprite_table.h:964:970
07:24:37  <planetmaker> hm... rather 366:392
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07:24:59  <andythenorth> planetmaker: CHIPS has a cc dock sprite in current build
07:25:10  <planetmaker> via actionA?
07:25:14  <andythenorth> I'm not sure
07:25:18  * andythenorth checks
07:25:25  <planetmaker> well.. no other way to use docks...
07:26:12  <andythenorth> yes it's action A
07:26:31  * andythenorth was looking for a function to add a palette parameter to :P
07:26:37  <andythenorth> maybe that's not the way
07:27:05  <planetmaker> not for base sprites
07:29:47  <planetmaker> is the dock enabled by default, andythenorth ?
07:31:37  <andythenorth> in CHIPS?  yes
07:32:26  <planetmaker> I see. And what part is CC? The crane?
07:33:28  <andythenorth> yes
07:33:39  <planetmaker> hm
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07:35:56  <planetmaker> works
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07:38:09  <LordAro> JOHNSHEPARD:
07:38:22  <planetmaker> psst!
07:38:26  <JOHNSHEPARD> yes
07:38:34  <JOHNSHEPARD> WREX
07:39:01  <LordAro> woops, sorry, didn't mean to do that... :)
07:41:58  <andythenorth> planetmaker: got a patch?
07:44:36  <planetmaker> yes... let me check something, though
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07:48:29  <planetmaker> http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/dock_cc.diff <-- andythenorth
07:48:36  <planetmaker> moin Alberth :-)
07:48:49  <Alberth> moin planetmaker
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08:02:59  <Terkhen> good morning
08:05:00  <Alberth> andythenorth: you are aware of 3 translation updates in the FIRS dev thread?
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08:07:55  <andythenorth> no :)
08:12:33  <Alberth> english typos + dutch updates: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=939020#p939020
08:12:56  <Alberth> polish: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=939077#p939077
08:13:27  <Alberth> and with still warm bits: russian: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=939428#p939428
08:13:44  <planetmaker> and German needs a review, too :-P
08:14:00  * Alberth prods planetmaker for andy
08:14:05  <planetmaker> :-P
08:14:32  <planetmaker> I'm easily tickled and might jump eratically ;-)
08:15:01  <Alberth> :)
08:15:11  * andythenorth is distracted by CHIPS
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08:15:54  <Alberth> as long as you don't eat them, all is fine
08:16:02  * planetmaker might actually look after them
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08:21:39  <andythenorth> planetmaker: cc docks works for me
08:21:58  <planetmaker> yes, for us, too. And all others
08:22:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22293 /trunk/src/table/station_land.h: -Add: Allow docks to feature company colour (add another pony for the firs(t) fish&chips foundry)
08:22:39  <planetmaker> well, those who play with trunk head
08:22:59  <andythenorth> thanks
08:23:05  <andythenorth> that's nice :)
08:23:14  <planetmaker> :-)
08:23:21  <andythenorth> two ponies in three days :)
08:23:25  <planetmaker> :-P
08:23:31  <planetmaker> what was the first?
08:24:04  <andythenorth> fix to station code - it was yexo's pony
08:24:12  <planetmaker> oi :-)
08:31:58  <andythenorth> hmm
08:32:05  <andythenorth> small ponies arrive much faster
08:34:16  <planetmaker> rome wasn't built in a day
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08:34:31  <planetmaker> quak
08:35:06  * andythenorth wonders if some of the bigger ponies could be sold off in favour of smaller ones
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08:38:05  <andythenorth> new ports / airports / stations / whatever it is seems to be a big stuck project
08:38:35  <planetmaker> they're big projects. And it sometimes needs taking a step back and looking at it anew
08:38:44  <andythenorth>  pikka said he might work on it after he releases the secret project
08:39:03  <planetmaker> similar like you don't continuously work on one grf, the same applies to big patches for trunk
08:39:30  <andythenorth> I understand ;)
08:39:50  <andythenorth> I'm not saying 'hurry up' :)
08:39:54  <frosch123> moin
08:39:59  <andythenorth> hello frosch123
08:40:29  <andythenorth> currently the saddest pony is vehicle smoke
08:40:36  <andythenorth> it's only got three legs :)
08:40:45  <planetmaker> :-P
08:41:08  <andythenorth> the work was done, but to make use of it for ships means a newgrf spec change I think
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09:32:03  <Wolf01> hello
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10:03:33  <Alberth> LordAro: do you have the source of Makefile.gcc ?   what is the original source of  [ "0" = "1" ]     ?
10:03:52  <Alberth> ie that is why the data is not copied, the question is why it doesn't do that
10:04:02  <Wolf01> he just quit
10:04:36  <__ln__> GOOD MORNING
10:05:20  <Wolf01> buongiorno __ln__
10:05:49  <frosch123> it's caps lock day again?
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10:37:53  <__ln__> not yet
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11:19:26  <LordAro> Rubidium: i think the slovak lang file is broken, i got this while compiling: /home/lordaro/coding/ottdsrc/src/lang/slovak.txt:1234: FATAL: STR_CONFIG_SETTING_HOVER_DELAY: Invalid number of plural forms. Expecting 3, found 2.
11:22:17  <Alberth> quite likely
11:22:40  <Alberth> as long as you don't use slovak, not much to worry about :)
11:22:55  <frosch123> if you know slovak, you can apply as translator and fix it
11:27:15  <xQR> this new system of counting the cars in a depot when you build your train is like the most noticed feature in 1.1
11:27:21  <xQR> if i would get a dollar for each complaint about it
11:27:32  <xQR> <OTTD-5> CONSTRUCTOR (Red): this new system, that is reading numbers of vagons suck too in 1.1 :)
11:27:37  <xQR> <OTTD-5> CONSTRUCTOR (Red): because u cant be sure.. do u have 19 vagons or 20
11:27:41  <xQR> it goes like this all day
11:27:56  <xQR> isn't there a way to revert it in config? :/
11:28:21  <planetmaker> there isn't
11:28:24  <xQR> :(
11:28:28  <SmatZ> you can have 50 wagons
11:28:40  <SmatZ> wagon length isn't fixed to half a tile
11:28:40  <planetmaker> and the person who said "19 or 20": he doesn't know that the previous number were not wagons either
11:28:44  <planetmaker> it were just half-tiles
11:28:44  <LordAro> Alberth: i just thought it might be a problem like when WT3 adds things when it's not supposed to
11:28:51  <xQR> but still it works
11:28:53  <planetmaker> which has nothing to do with wagons as soon as you use newgrfs
11:28:54  <xQR> *worked
11:28:57  <planetmaker> nope
11:29:04  <planetmaker> it didn't. That's why it was fixed
11:29:31  <Alberth> LordAro: it is, but we are not authors of WT3 (and the author of WT3 is aware of the problem but very busy)
11:29:33  <planetmaker> it's not a change for the sake of it. It's a bug fix as the number was pointless and faulty
11:29:39  <xQR> then it might be because we aren't running any newgrfs on our servers - people were used to that number being accurate for them
11:29:49  <planetmaker> only with default vehicles it was the length in vehicle units
11:30:00  <planetmaker> but why do you need wagon number?
11:30:10  <planetmaker> you want the train to fit the station. Thus tiles matters
11:30:22  <xQR> sure but you want it to fit efficiently
11:30:32  <planetmaker> yes, that#s why tiles matters
11:30:35  <xQR> not to waste a car because you only had 19 instead of 20 for your 40 tiles station
11:30:45  <planetmaker> add one more. if it's too much, sell one
11:30:58  <frosch123> planetmaker: they want to see whether they can add another wagon before doing so
11:31:00  <xQR> sure, that's what people are doing - but this way of trying it out wasn't necessary before
11:31:04  <xQR> yes
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11:31:06  <planetmaker> I know, frosch123
11:31:11  <LordAro> Alberth: i just thought it may require an extra commit like r22267
11:31:11  <xQR> i get your point though
11:31:12  <planetmaker> but... how?
11:31:16  <frosch123> which never worked for non-default wagons :)
11:31:16  <xQR> didn't know about the newgrfs
11:31:25  <planetmaker> if I can add a wagon of length one tile and length 1/4 tile next?
11:31:44  <xQR> as soon as i put even a very common newgrf on one of the servers no player is joining anymore
11:31:58  <planetmaker> must be you then ;-)
11:32:03  <planetmaker> sorry, kidding
11:32:09  <planetmaker> do you use bananas newgrfs?
11:32:13  <xQR> yaya bite me :P
11:32:16  <LordAro> which libicu should i get for ubuntu?
11:32:31  <xQR> otherwise there are 30-50 players on the servers
11:32:35  <planetmaker> using anything non-bananas for a server is a killer
11:32:39  <xQR> i won't scare them away with newgrfs :P
11:32:45  <Alberth> LordAro: that's one way, a better way would be if the translators solved it
11:33:10  <planetmaker> xQR: I'd like to see a server with 50 concurrent players
11:33:47  <xQR> no it's 6 servers and i am counting the overall players and ofc it's 30-50 only at times were most europeans are online
11:33:58  <xQR> currently 21 when i counted correctly
11:34:07  <frosch123> LordAro: if you want to natural sorting, then a pretty recent one; if you do not care about non-latin alphabets you might not need it at all
11:34:12  <planetmaker> oh, ok :-) that sounds more like numbers I'd expect :-)
11:34:15  <xQR> hehe
11:34:36  <xQR> i wish you could get them on one server, yes
11:34:50  <xQR> but even getting the current limit of 15 players maxed out only works every now and then
11:34:59  <LordAro> frosch123: i know... but which package?
11:35:41  <frosch123> what? libicu-devel
11:35:44  <frosch123> what else?
11:35:50  <planetmaker> n-ice.org, xQR ?
11:36:13  <xQR> haha yes
11:36:19  <xQR> how the hell...
11:36:23  <planetmaker> just curious :-)
11:36:52  <planetmaker> and it's not difficult: 6 busy servers. You're certainly not luukland. You're not coop. Thus only that remains
11:37:00  <xQR> mhh yes
11:37:42  <planetmaker> and they're numbered servers ;-)
11:37:50  <xQR> i like stuff sorted :P
11:38:30  <planetmaker> :-) But as you can see from the server list: most other busy servers use newgrfs
11:38:41  <planetmaker> Thus... probably it's quite good to have some without
11:39:02  <xQR> yeah we still lack a site that is capable of showing statistics about the games - this would attract people to go there
11:39:06  <planetmaker> you get those players who either don't care or who're fed of often mal-configured newgrf combinations ;-)
11:39:10  <xQR> once you built up a small community it's easier
11:39:20  <planetmaker> statistics about what?
11:39:24  <xQR> people stay there and become regulars even when that means installing a newgrf from time to time
11:39:32  <planetmaker> I know :-)
11:39:47  <xQR> but for now if i do it the server just stays empty for 2 weeks
11:39:50  <planetmaker> on our welcome server also an amazing amount of regular people are found
11:40:05  <xQR> statistics about who won the goals
11:40:12  <planetmaker> xQR: maybe not all (that'd be folly with 6 servers), but one or two?
11:40:13  <xQR> so you can show ranking
11:40:17  <xQR> highscore list etc.
11:40:25  <planetmaker> well, you know the admin interface introduced with 1.1?
11:40:45  <xQR> i've tried on one of them the past weeks
11:40:51  <xQR> it has never seen a single player but me :P
11:41:04  <planetmaker> you could have a bot connect there, monitor stats and then write it to a DB once the goal is reached
11:41:30  <LordAro> there is no libicu-devel, only: libicu-dev, libicu42-dbg, and some others that are java related
11:41:31  <xQR> tbh i haven't invested much time in checking the new 1.1 features yet
11:41:36  <xQR> but ofc i will
11:41:43  <xQR> sounds really good
11:41:51  <planetmaker> how do you implement goals?
11:42:01  <xQR> currently i thought about connecting a TCP client there anyway
11:42:04  <xQR> so i can grab more data
11:42:11  <xQR> right now i am using the console
11:42:32  <xQR> which is why we only have goals on the company value
11:42:37  <xQR> you don't get much more data from the console
11:42:46  <xQR> vehicle count, money, loan...nothing you could use for it
11:42:50  <planetmaker> xQR: you definitely should use the admin interface
11:43:00  <xQR> yes, sounds like a great idea
11:43:02  <planetmaker> you can also access that over network
11:43:34  <planetmaker> you "only" need to write a script which monitors it. There are two implementations of a library to support it already
11:43:45  <planetmaker> but no real bot which makes use of them and the interface
11:43:54  <xQR> well i am using C# so i guess there's no finished lib for it already
11:43:58  <xQR> but that's not a problem
11:44:13  <xQR> i managed to implement a whole plug-in system in my software, i am quite sure i will manage to do a bit of network communication :)
11:44:21  <planetmaker> what do you care about a lib's language? ;-)
11:45:07  <xQR> it's a bit ugly from C# if you do it cross platform
11:45:46  <xQR> because you would have to load different libs on windows and linux
11:46:00  <xQR> right now it's running on windows and linux just the same without any extra effort
11:46:21  <xQR> it's more clean to just create a C# lib for it i guess
11:47:28  <planetmaker> uhm... what I'm trying to tell is simply: don't re-implement the whole network protocol for the admin interface, make use of one of the existing libs there. Write your bot in whatever language you prefer
11:48:07  <planetmaker> it's got nothing to do with cross-platform
11:48:21  <peter1138> That's only possible if that language has the appropriate bindings for the lib.
11:48:35  <planetmaker> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/joan and
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11:49:45  <planetmaker> https://bitbucket.org/Xaroth/libottdadmin
11:50:16  <xQR> that's giving me a 404
11:50:24  <xQR> and loading a java library from C#...well
11:50:25  <planetmaker> well, given the time both dih and xaroth programmed on the libs, it might be quite a bit wasted to re-invent the wheel a 3rd time
11:50:47  <xQR> you need a third party framework for that
11:50:51  <planetmaker> both links work for me
11:50:57  <xQR> ofc you can always add adapter after adapter after adapter
11:51:03  <xQR> but that will add complexity
11:51:08  <xQR> and make debugging really hard
11:51:19  <Alberth> LordAro: oh?  http://packages.ubuntu.com/hardy/libicu-dev
11:51:19  <planetmaker> well, your time, not mine ;-)
11:52:05  <xQR> exactly - and i won't spend hours debugging an error where in the end i find out it's happening somewhere on the way from adapter 2 to adapter 3
11:52:33  <LordAro> Alberth: yeah, i guessed that ( i added it here: http://wiki.openttd.org/GNU/Linux#Debian_and_Ubuntu )
11:53:16  <xQR> is there any good resource on the admin interface? or should i rather just check the source?
11:53:17  <Alberth> LordAro: I just grabbed the first hit from google, no idea whether it is current
11:53:34  <xQR> didn't find anything useful with google or the wiki
11:53:38  <xQR> +on
11:53:50  <xQR> except for some changelog messages that it's there :)
11:54:02  <Alberth> both authors are here regularly
11:54:19  <peter1138> planetmaker, neither of those libraries are suitable for using in C#, so I don't understand your point.
11:54:26  <planetmaker> joan has the better documentation
11:54:31  <LordAro> Alberth: well it works, i just did another ./configure
11:54:47  <planetmaker> peter1138: then my point is "consider c# or re-write"
11:54:59  <planetmaker> s/cons/recons/
11:55:13  <planetmaker> which is a rewrite in both cases ;-)
11:55:18  <xQR> i do this project for fun and i chose C# because i think it's fun working with it
11:55:24  <xQR> so reconsidering C# = no fun
11:55:29  <xQR> rewriting in C# = fun
11:55:29  <xQR> :)
11:55:44  <xQR> guess what's i'm gonna choose :P
11:55:44  <Alberth> C# is a MS-only language, why would you want to use that?
11:55:44  <planetmaker> yes, yes, I think I recall that
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11:56:10  <xQR> define MS-only
11:56:16  <planetmaker> we must have talked months ago
11:56:17  <xQR> for someone who is runnign linux servers with his C# software
11:56:20  <xQR> ^^
11:56:59  <Alberth> MS defines where the language goes to, mono et al just can follow
11:57:16  * peter1138 would like to inform you that he is lost on his Minecraft server :S
11:57:34  <peter1138> If only I had some redstone...
11:57:40  <xQR> i use MapMarkers and a google map created with minecraft-overviewer on mine
11:57:43  <xQR> never get lost there :)
11:58:14  <Alberth> start killing random processes at your server until you fall down :p
11:59:03  <xQR> Alberth but still Mono is backing it up
11:59:14  <xQR> MS might decide to stop C# development tomorrow
11:59:16  <peter1138> Minecraft-Overviewer doesn't play ball on Debian Lenny :(
11:59:28  <xQR> but then Mono could just take over the windows support
11:59:40  <Alberth> haha!
11:59:45  <xQR> in the meantime the .NET stuff still works
11:59:55  <xQR> i don't see any risk from MS being behind it
12:00:06  <Alberth> I still think it is the ultimate vendor lock-in :)
12:00:41  <xQR> that's a question of personal feelings about it
12:00:47  <xQR> so far i never felt locked in in any way
12:00:50  <xQR> so i feel free and it's fun
12:01:04  <xQR> and if that changes tomorrow i can still move on to something else
12:01:19  <xQR> we're still talking about hobby projects here
12:01:43  <xQR> oh well i've been using C# as a professional developer, too, but there it doesn't matter anyway because you have no choise in a company that has dev guidelines you got to follow :)
12:01:54  <xQR> *choice
12:04:53  <xQR> even at the places where Mono is behind a bit you still got so much functionality in it that in other languages you would already use the 5th third party library to achieve the same
12:06:29  <xQR> peter1138 i am running minecraft-overviewer on Debian Lenny, actually
12:06:44  <Alberth> ever looked at Python?
12:07:07  <xQR> no - i am sure i will do that in the future, always wanted to do
12:07:19  <Alberth> it comes also with a rich library, and I wonder how those compare
12:07:33  <xQR> but you can't just know every language in the world - and there will always be someone to tell you "but this specific language, you really have to know it!"
12:08:32  <Alberth> knowing several languages has its advantages, it gives you better judgement of language facilities. But sure, you never know all languages equally well
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12:09:49  <planetmaker> xaroth's lib is in python
12:10:07  <xQR> that's the link that gave me a 404 then i guess
12:11:59  <xQR> pawn, C/C++, pascal/delphi, assembler (intel syntax), VB 6, PL/SQL, PHP and some script languages for specific cases like MSL (mIRC)
12:12:06  <xQR> that's about the stuff i have used so far
12:12:20  <xQR> funny mixture :)
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12:16:57  <xQR> mhh python doesn't seem to be hard to read, currently looking at libottdadmin code
12:17:37  <xQR> doesn't seem to be much code
12:18:37  <xQR> nah i guess reimplementing that really won't hurt in any way
12:21:29  <xQR> peter1138 sent you a notice - that map is created on debian lenny (and updated by cron job) so tell me if i can help you get it to run
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12:35:32  <Alberth> you can express a lot in just a few lines of code, in Python :)
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12:50:07  * andythenorth wonders how to fix this one :P
12:50:07  <andythenorth> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=47033&start=80
12:51:21  <planetmaker> the NekoMaster bug?
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12:53:21  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: without savegame, there is nothing to fix...
12:56:22  <__ln__> interesting, The Event s01e15 directed by Janusz Kaminski
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13:06:52  <xQR> btw i got a 1.1 savegame here with a station using path signals where trains only use 5 out of 6 tracks
13:07:00  <xQR> if you remove that one track of the station and replace it it's fixed
13:07:10  <xQR> should i upload that somewhere?
13:07:16  <Eddi|zuHause> xQR: stale reservation?
13:07:18  <xQR> i guess this one is hard to fix
13:07:45  <xQR> not sure - i think when i joined my client showed me that track as reserved for a short time
13:07:51  <xQR> i have that enabled in the client
13:07:58  <xQR> but after a short time it disappeared
13:08:02  <xQR> either that or i am just seeing things :P
13:08:06  <xQR> let me check again
13:08:50  <xQR> mhh not, at least it isn't shown as reserved in the client
13:09:03  <michi_cc> xQR: Did you check whether the track had the proper track (i.e. catenary)?
13:09:27  <xQR> yes - it's electrified track and elec trains so i traid to press convert on the track with elec like crazy
13:09:32  <xQR> but it's all electrified
13:09:46  <xQR> or the convert tool isn't working
13:10:10  <Alberth> can you force a train by removing a track before all the other platforms?
13:10:16  <xQR> no
13:10:19  <xQR> tried that before, doesn't help
13:10:41  <Eddi|zuHause> xQR: if you remove all other tracks, and then force a train through?
13:10:51  <xQR> by force you mean click "ignore the next signal"?
13:11:17  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
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13:11:22  <xQR> i'll try
13:11:53  <Eddi|zuHause> although, force trains with path signals might itself be buggy/overprotective
13:12:00  <xQR> hmm
13:12:14  <xQR> bah it's a lot of tracks to remove there
13:12:17  <xQR> ugly building style
13:12:33  <xQR> it wasn't build by me, it happened to someone on the server and i saved the game and started experimenting with it in single player
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13:14:52  <xQR> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21345942/Window1201004593.png
13:15:02  <xQR> now that train only has one way to go there
13:15:06  <xQR> still says "waiting for free path"
13:15:21  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that's what i meant...
13:15:37  <xQR> and again i clicked convert on each part of the track, just to be sure
13:15:40  <xQR> but it's all electrified
13:16:04  <xQR> as soon as i remove that track and replace it the train will enter and from then on the track is being used by other trains too
13:16:12  <xQR> so replacing it permanently fixes it
13:16:17  <xQR> but i wonder how the problem started anyway
13:16:33  <Eddi|zuHause> xQR: but at the end of the platform, it looks like the track is reserved
13:16:42  <xQR> ah you are right
13:16:47  <xQR> indeed
13:17:03  <xQR> only the last tile
13:17:11  <xQR> let's see whether only replacing the last tile already fixes it
13:17:20  <Eddi|zuHause> if you remove that, does the train go?
13:17:39  <xQR> mhh no
13:18:00  <xQR> now it's not looking reserved anymore
13:18:28  <xQR> a
13:18:33  <xQR> just set it to transparent
13:18:38  <xQR> 3 more tiles are reserved
13:18:44  <xQR> so it's actually the last 4 tiles that are reserved
13:18:57  <xQR> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21345942/Window1201256953.png
13:19:10  <xQR> i am quite sure if i remove and replace them the train will enter, let's see
13:19:29  <xQR> yes
13:19:44  <xQR> now it was able to reserve and entered the track
13:19:48  <xQR> so it's a stale reserve then :)
13:20:09  <xQR> haven't seen that before 1.1
13:20:28  <xQR> and i know the guy who built it - he's always building stations this way
13:24:24  <Eddi|zuHause> so: two things: a) force ignore signal is broken with path signals, and b) some stale reservations appear sometimes during station construction
13:25:28  <xQR> no, sorry, i forgot to try "force ignore signals" :P
13:25:31  <xQR> will do now
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13:29:09  <xQR> ok a) is true, too
13:29:23  <xQR> force ignore signals makes the train say "heading to" for a split second
13:29:29  <xQR> then goes back to "waiting for free path"
13:29:47  <xQR> but well, a) might only happen in cases where you got b)
13:31:43  <Eddi|zuHause> a) is independent from b)
13:33:35  <xQR> i'd just say his ugly building style is to blame :P
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13:39:18  <michi_cc> xQR: sometimes you have to press the ignore button two or three times (which is probably not fully the intended behaviour)
13:40:10  <xQR> ah you are right
13:40:17  <xQR> clicked it like crazy
13:40:25  <xQR> i'd say it was 5 very fast clicks before it finally did it
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13:57:56  <LordAro> hmm, when doing make bundle on an existing compilation, it deletes the bundle folder (with for example, graphics set) and makes another one. is there a way round this?
13:58:22  <planetmaker> eh?
13:58:44  <planetmaker> it has to do so
13:58:59  <planetmaker> or you'd get possibly tainted bundles
13:59:08  <LordAro> can it not just overwrite the changed files?
13:59:20  <planetmaker> and also bundle files someone copied therep reviously?
13:59:22  <planetmaker> no
13:59:45  <LordAro> shame
13:59:56  <planetmaker> don't play from the bundles folder. Copy it to your playing location
14:00:15  <LordAro> i could... :)
14:00:28  <Yexo> or copy all graphics sets to a shared directory
14:00:31  <Yexo> like in my documents
14:00:55  <LordAro> (ubuntu atm ;) )
14:01:28  <Yexo> ~/.openttd in that case ;)
14:02:30  <xQR> has there already been the highly philosophical discussion whether it is possible to put the setting for the multiplayer name somewhere people actually see it?
14:02:35  <xQR> because most of them must be blind
14:02:44  <xQR> there's so many "Player"s everywhere
14:02:58  <xQR> so we need something that is blind-proof
14:03:04  <xQR> :/
14:03:31  <xQR> sometimes even when you tell them it's in the dialog where you select servers they still don't find it
14:07:47  <Alberth> I do remember a discussion in a forum about not allowing players called Player to connect :p
14:08:33  <Yexo> we could automatically open a query window that ask for the player name as soon as the multiplayer window is opened
14:08:43  <Yexo> only in case the name is "Player" of course
14:14:16  <Eddi|zuHause> don't fill out the player name with a default value at all, and forbid joining without a player name set?
14:15:05  <Eddi|zuHause> or like other games: fill out the player name by default with the user/login name
14:22:47  <xQR> Alberth i had a system on our servers that would allow "Player"s to connect but they could not join a company until they changed their name
14:23:35  <xQR> when they tried they were moved back to spectators and got the message that explained them how they can change their name permanently or that they could write !name newname in chat to change it
14:23:36  <Yexo> before that is implemented there should first be a gui to change your name in game
14:23:51  <xQR> but i figured it was quite annoying because some people started to click "join" like crazy
14:23:59  <Yexo> and imo that's already too late, users should change their name before joining a server
14:24:02  <xQR> so now i have changed it: they get a random-generated name
14:24:07  <xQR> as soon as they join a company
14:24:18  <xQR> and then get a message that they can change their name if they want
14:25:02  <Alberth> it is probably easier to always have a name online
14:25:08  <xQR> [16:11:58] • OTTD-6 * >> Player #1 (#109/86.160.X.X/GB) has joined company 12 (Brown)
14:25:08  <xQR> [16:11:58] • OTTD-6 * <x> Player #1 (#109/12 (Brown)/GB) has changed his/her name to Urelo
14:25:13  <xQR> :)
14:25:13  <planetmaker> But people already can change their nickname in the server join lobby
14:25:52  <Alberth> planetmaker: so it is just a matter of greying out the 'join' button until they do?
14:26:01  <planetmaker> maybe a button in the company view "change nickname"?
14:26:09  <planetmaker> Alberth: not sure
14:26:09  <xQR> some of these random names sound really silly but well, if they don't like it they should learn how to change it :P
14:26:30  <xQR> graying out the join button would be nasty
14:26:36  <xQR> because then they got no explanation
14:26:38  <planetmaker> Alberth: those servers who don't like it can move the to 255 or kick them
14:26:43  <xQR> you will get a lot of stupid threads on your Problems forum :P
14:26:53  <xQR> "help, i can't join any server, don't know why"
14:27:00  <planetmaker> ^^ :-)
14:27:00  <Alberth> tooltip?
14:27:26  <Eddi|zuHause> red error box: "cannot join server: need name"
14:27:34  <planetmaker> s/Player #x/Random Fool #x/g ;-)
14:27:34  <xQR> that would be better
14:27:39  <xQR> haha :D
14:27:45  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: and we all know how serious those are taken :p
14:27:53  <planetmaker> :-D
14:28:06  <xQR> as i said some of the random names sound very silly too
14:28:12  <xQR> still people stick to it
14:28:36  <xQR> and when i ask those who change their names using the !name command why they don't set it permanently
14:28:44  <xQR> "didn't know this is possible, where can i set it?"
14:28:57  <planetmaker> yep, indeed
14:29:01  <planetmaker> heart that, too
14:29:16  <xQR> ofc there are some other players who really don't care
14:29:28  <xQR> who are even annoyed by that and think that nicks are useless
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14:31:07  <xQR> maybe a yes/no message box: "you haven't set a multiplayer name yet. do you really want to continue joining the server?"
14:31:51  <SpComb> wikipedia style, use the ipv4 address as a default name :)
14:31:51  <xQR> probably even a hint that it can be set in the top right corner of the window - because that's usually what makes players finally find it when i tell them
14:32:17  <xQR> well i had thought about the same on my server but prefered a random-generated name over it eventually
14:32:34  <xQR> showing their IP worries people about security
14:32:36  <Eddi|zuHause> xQR: "yes/no" is bad. just outright forbid it
14:33:30  <xQR> well but that message box would appear for every server join so it will get annoying soon, like a nag screen :P
14:33:58  <Yexo> that just means people will start asking for a way to disable that window instead of filling in a name
14:34:03  <xQR> only people who really think it's their way of being anonymous on the internet will keep on clicking yes
14:34:32  <xQR> the same might happen when it's completely forbidden
14:35:40  <Yexo> not if the default name is empty, it's logical that you can't join with an empty name
14:36:10  <xQR> i wonder why this is only such a big problem in OpenTTD anyway - a lot more people play halflife mods online like counter strike and there you got an "UnnamedPlayer" preset you can join any server with
14:36:19  <xQR> and you even have to find it in the options first to change it
14:36:28  <xQR> yet you don't see many nameless people on servers
14:37:12  <Yexo> perhaps it's just the location of the player name box
14:37:30  <Alberth> don't you get points etc there, ie something you need an identity for?
14:37:40  <xQR> i thought the same but it's hard to believe that relocating it to an options window will solve it
14:38:01  <Yexo> xQR: I thought more about relocation it down in the same window, so just above/below the join button
14:38:06  <LordAro> Alberth: yesterday you gave me this line: this->SetWidgetDisabledState(SNGRFS_NEWGRF_README, this->avail_sel == NULL);    this doesn't quite work, with the 'view readme' button only behaving like the 'add'  button. help? :)
14:38:19  <xQR> hmm ok
14:38:21  <xQR> let's see
14:38:33  <Yexo> LordAro: that line disables the widget when no grf is selected
14:38:46  <xQR> Yexo: yes, i think that would be worth a try
14:38:51  <Yexo> and I do recall that line being given as example, what behavior do you actually want?
14:39:09  <xQR> but i guess many people just double click the server like i do
14:39:11  <Alberth> LordAro: also 'doesn't quite work' has no meaning, try to be more precise how it does not work
14:39:54  <xQR> maybe let it stay at the top
14:39:59  <xQR> but put it in the left corner
14:40:10  <xQR> where the connection selection is
14:40:18  <xQR> move the connection a bit to the right
14:40:28  <LordAro> Yexo: well eventually, only active when there is a readme present, and a grf is selected. with that line it is only active when the grf is (selected) in the 'inactive' box
14:41:07  <Alberth> LordAro: ok, do you have a boolean indicating that a newgrf has a readme file?
14:42:41  <LordAro> no, not yet :) i think i can probably handle that when i get to it, for now i want the button to be active whenever a grf is selected (active or inactive)
14:43:01  <Yexo> so something like: this->avail_sel == NULL && this->active_sel == NULL
14:43:27  <Alberth> actually,   ||   works better in that case :)
14:43:48  <Alberth> euhm, never mind, that's wrong
14:44:58  <xQR> i guess i conclude the box should be moved to the left top - and players shouldn't be allowed to join a server at all
14:45:03  <LordAro> Yexo: but they're both the same?
14:45:08  <xQR> this also has a psychological aspect
14:45:15  <xQR> people set something they identify themselves with
14:45:17  <Alberth> LordAro:  avail != active
14:45:18  <Yexo> LordAro: avail != active
14:45:25  <xQR> so you can acutally direct a message at them on the server
14:45:32  <xQR> which is sometimes hard now, even when you say their company name
14:45:59  <LordAro> Alberth/Yexo: lol :) my bad...
14:46:39  <xQR> if a player has set a nick he might be recognized with later (or even in other places if it's unique) it is less likely he will ruin the game for others when he gets bored later
14:46:45  <Alberth> LordAro: programming is quite about reading what it says, instead of reading what you think it says :)
14:47:04  <xQR> but when he notes he just has a random/default name anyway he thinks he is anonymous and can do what he wants
14:47:24  <LordAro> nah, the compiler should just do what i think :P
14:47:27  <xQR> lowers the inhibition threshold
14:47:54  <Alberth> LordAro: I'd like that too, but the compiler is not very co-operative, I noticed :)
14:48:07  <LordAro> Yexo: excellent, it works, thanks :)
14:48:22  <LordAro> now: work out how to read a readme :D
14:48:28  <LordAro> that's gonna be fun
14:49:02  <Alberth> first just find out whether there exists a file with some fixed name
14:50:29  <planetmaker> just assuming a readme.txt to be shipped is good enough IMHO
14:50:39  <planetmaker> that could be made a requirement ;-)
14:53:20  <Alberth> there are probably several steps, ie finding out where the grf is, what tar to open, getting the contents, matching against the fixed name
14:54:15  <Alberth> I would skip any grf not shipped in a tar file
14:56:05  <Alberth> (since I don't see how you can connect a readme file to some x.grf file such that they are known to belong to each other)
14:57:13  <planetmaker> hm... I think my space bar will have a malfunction when responding to people with a mal-functioning shift key.
14:57:18  <planetmaker> But it's quite difficult :-P
14:58:23  <Yexo> and maybe think about how to handle translations of the readme file. for example marico has a readme in english and in german
14:58:52  <planetmaker> hm, ho. very good point ^
14:59:44  <planetmaker> point is, though, Yexo, that on bananas you can afair only supply one readme
15:00:06  <planetmaker> which must be readme.txt or readme.pdf (or variations on captialization)
15:00:13  <planetmaker> maybe .doc is ok, too
15:02:23  <planetmaker> pdf and txt extensions, license, readme and copying as filenames
15:02:37  <planetmaker> or no extension
15:08:04  <Alberth> planetmaker: but people writing all lowercase might also have a malfunctioning shift key
15:08:35  <planetmaker> both of them? ;-)
15:09:04  <Alberth> your requirement said nothing about both of them :)
15:09:17  <planetmaker> :-P
15:10:05  <planetmaker> http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/showthread.php?tid=5224&pid=72654#pid72654 <-- in German, though
15:11:26  <xQR> loool
15:11:30  <xQR> now that post is funny :D
15:12:19  <xQR> luckily german has many capitalized words in there, so reading it is still not too hard
15:12:24  <xQR> would be much harder without that
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15:13:22  <xQR> your eyes at least got some anchors
15:15:52  <Yexo> <planetmaker> point is, though, Yexo, that on bananas you can afair only supply one readme <- that can always be changed
15:16:31  <planetmaker> well, sure. But there we could then require a sane and unique format. Like 7F_readme.txt
15:17:34  <Yexo> you call that sane?
15:18:17  <planetmaker> well :-)
15:18:26  <planetmaker> for certain definitions of 'sane'
15:18:49  <planetmaker> one could also require a similar line like in the NML lang files within the files themselves
15:19:06  <planetmaker> and filenames of the form readmeXXX
15:19:09  <planetmaker> whatever :-)
15:19:27  <Yexo> I was thinking more like readme_en.txt / readme_de.txt etc.
15:19:47  <Yexo> ie something that makes sense when a user extracts the tar and sees the files
15:20:52  <planetmaker> hm... it needs recognition by OpenTTD so that it can attribute it to the single languages
15:21:25  <planetmaker> what about the two norwegians, chinese and portuguise "dialects" then?
15:21:30  <Zuu> and does not open up a can of injection problems.
15:23:07  <Yexo> planetmaker: en_gb / en_us etc?
15:23:31  <planetmaker> yes, that'd be needed
15:23:43  <planetmaker> readme_en_gb.txt. hm... well.
15:23:51  <planetmaker> feasible, I guess
15:24:30  <Yexo> readme.txt could still be the default
15:24:51  <planetmaker> indeed
15:24:56  <planetmaker> and should
15:25:08  <Zuu> Only when 'your' language does not exist, or even if there is a readme for 'your' language?
15:25:31  <Yexo> only when your language does not exist
15:25:51  <Yexo> just like is done for all other strings in openttd, use the english variant for non-translated strings
15:26:17  <Zuu> Sounds resonable.
15:27:01  <Zuu> Choosing "readme.txt" as default also maintains backward compatibility.
15:27:40  <planetmaker> yes, quite. Would be stupid to not do that
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15:52:53  <Zuu> Hmm, though I found a bug in my new Clueless version that is under testing to iron out any stability problems. But it was base cost mod that made build on slope extremely expansive. (just picked a NewGRF preset)
15:53:10  <Zuu> :-)
15:54:24  <planetmaker> :-D
15:58:22  <Zuu> Hmm, interesting, thicker lines in the profit graph.
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17:01:32  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22294 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix (r20922)[FS#4571]: Reset Window::scrolling_scrollbar when raising scrollbar buttons.
17:08:36  <Eddi|zuHause>  <planetmaker> just assuming a readme.txt to be shipped is good enough IMHO <-- then what to do about readme.html? or if someone wants to display images? or tables with a monospace font?
17:08:50  <Yexo> ignore those
17:09:11  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: there's no jack-of-all-trades-readme-viewer ;-)
17:09:30  <planetmaker> or we copy&paste mozilla source code 1:1 into OpenTTD
17:09:51  <planetmaker> include the pdf plugin as well, of course
17:09:56  <planetmaker> but which?
17:10:36  <planetmaker> not really a path I'd fancy ;-)
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17:11:36  <Eddi|zuHause> how about a variant of bb-code?
17:11:45  <planetmaker> how about plain text?
17:12:15  <Eddi|zuHause> you can't make ascii-art in plain text
17:13:00  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: IMHO you try to do the 3rd or 4th step before the direction of the 1st is decided up
17:13:02  <planetmaker> on
17:13:44  <planetmaker> once there is a text viewer - then you can still extend it by a syntax parser. But that very clearly does not belong in a first step where it comes to displaying a readme.
17:14:04  <Eddi|zuHause> imho, the availability of tables is the most important, image might be nice-to-have. clickable links have the previously discussed problems...
17:14:45  <planetmaker> Most important is the ability to display a normal text
17:14:54  <planetmaker> The rest is nice-to-have
17:14:57  <Lakie> Heh, you're looking at what its nice to have, not making managable development goals / steps.
17:16:43  <frosch123> i would rather add os-specific code to start pdf viewers, than adding table-displaying code to ottd
17:17:06  <planetmaker> and a normal text, with the ability to make lists - as any text offers - goes a long way
17:17:08  * Yexo agrees with frosch123, same for html files
17:17:14  <planetmaker> I didn't yet need tables in my readmes
17:18:24  <planetmaker> yep, I concur
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17:27:40  <Eddi|zuHause> Lakie: looking at what might be nice to have is kinda a requirement to formulating goals and non-goals.
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17:33:42  <Eddi|zuHause> opening an external broweser/viewer would probably require a list of common programs with command lines, as well as an option to give a custom command line in game settings. and temporary unpacking the .tar files
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17:35:45  <Otto> Hi everyone
17:35:51  <Alberth> hi
17:36:12  <Otto> Can I ask some OTTD related questions in here?
17:36:38  <Alberth> if you mean OpenTTD, yes
17:36:42  <planetmaker> you could give it a try.
17:36:44  <Otto> good
17:37:00  <Otto> Couse I rn into a problem with a GRF
17:37:13  <planetmaker> please don't use leat - speak, though
17:37:46  <planetmaker> but go ahead :-)
17:38:20  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: such lists *could* in principle be supplied. Similar things (or rather exclusion lists) are somewhat included for font detection purposes already
17:39:10  <Otto> The problem is with the Nu Tracks r122... Building a track section is costing me a few thousand Euro in game and I can't change it
17:39:47  <Otto> Even when changing the parameters it stays the same.
17:39:55  * andythenorth chimes in
17:39:55  <andythenorth> the only requirement for a readme in game is ascii text
17:40:02  <planetmaker> might be intended. Unless the newgrf allows configuration of costs... ok :-)
17:40:46  <Otto> Yes, but a single track section for 5.000 Euro is a bit much in start of the game
17:40:53  <Yexo> Otto: which track type are you trying to build?
17:41:06  <Otto> So, how can I delete a GRF setting from a scenario I created?
17:41:07  <Yexo> the low speed variants are much cheaper than the high speed tracks
17:41:36  <andythenorth> the only interesting text formatting is char which says 'start using body style from here' and one that says 'start using alternative style from here'
17:41:50  <andythenorth> similar to how string formatting codes are used in game texts
17:41:53  <planetmaker> Otto: it's an old version of the grf. Sounds like a bug
17:42:05  <andythenorth> newgrf authors should not be able to specify colours or anything else
17:42:08  <Eddi|zuHause> for me, very low speed is around 20£, low speed around 70£
17:42:12  <planetmaker> did you try newer versions?
17:42:15  * Alberth believes just ascii is enough as a first step
17:42:40  * andythenorth too
17:43:02  <andythenorth> I can do a lot with *heading* _emphasis_ and
17:43:03  <planetmaker> NuTracks 1.0.0 corresponds to r178, so... has seen 50% more work than your version
17:43:04  <andythenorth> - bullet
17:43:07  <andythenorth> or * bullet
17:43:35  <Alberth> adding yet another markup language does not seem very wise, even as second of later step, imho
17:43:48  <Otto> Ok, but how can I disable the GRF in a scenario and use the newer version?
17:44:17  <planetmaker> he... it's not a safe thing to do that
17:44:31  <Eddi|zuHause> Otto: hidden setting
17:44:46  <planetmaker> you need to declare yourself a scenario_developer via console
17:44:47  <Eddi|zuHause> hidden for a reason
17:45:10  <Otto> So, I can't play my scenario?
17:45:35  <planetmaker> you can. Either with the existing newgrf. Or by using developer settings
17:45:59  <Otto> Ok, how do I get in Developer setting?
17:46:20  <planetmaker> well, sorry mate, I gave enough hint for that for you to find it ;-) )
17:46:27  <Eddi|zuHause> by using The Google.
17:47:04  <Alberth> planetmaker: thanks for updating FIRS translations
17:47:06  <planetmaker> if everyone used them - they're pointless. Using them causes bugs quite often
17:47:29  <planetmaker> my pleasure, Alberth :-) Thanks also for those spelling fixes
17:48:14  <andythenorth> Alberth: I didn't mean to use * _ - those as any kind of markup other than 'for my eyes'
17:48:16  <andythenorth> ;)
17:49:54  <planetmaker> and it was very nice that you provided such comprehensive summary :-)
17:53:44  <Otto> Ok, Downloaded the 1.0.0 version, hope it works
17:57:11  <Yexo> Otto: to be able to change newgrf in the scenario editor open the console and type "set scenario_developer 1"
17:57:54  <Otto> Ok, where do I find that console?
17:58:06  <Yexo> the key left to the 1 on your keyboard
17:59:11  <Otto> Escape?
17:59:22  <Yexo> no, on my keyboard it's: `
17:59:30  <Yexo> directly above tab
18:00:22  <Otto>  Im on a MAC keybordt (running windows for OpenTTD)
18:00:49  <Yexo> you don't need to run windows for that, there are mac binaries available
18:01:02  <planetmaker> not for 1.0
18:01:37  <Yexo> for 1.0 the whole "how do I edit the newgrf config" question is mood
18:01:46  <Otto> okay, all ckeck in later... diner is served
18:01:48  <planetmaker> also true
18:02:23  <__ln__> "running windows for OpenTTD" <--- o tempora o mores
18:05:06  <andythenorth> Otto: on my mac ~ will open console
18:05:09  <andythenorth> hmm
18:05:11  * andythenorth ponders
18:05:18  <andythenorth> do we really need to open a readme.txt?
18:05:29  <andythenorth> why not just an action 14 prop that's stuffed into a new window?
18:06:32  <Yexo> because it's very cumbersome to write long multi-line comments in nfo? Also a separate file is readable without starting openttd, which is a plus
18:07:06  <andythenorth> true
18:07:30  * andythenorth thinks about LF vs CR, wrong encodings....unicode characters...and other annoying stuff
18:07:48  <Terkhen> and the same systen can be used for AIs and other contents
18:07:58  <Yexo> just specify that openttd reads the file as utf-8
18:08:57  <planetmaker> if Otto has a German keyboard "^" will open the console
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18:14:36  * andythenorth wonders why FIRS town effect cargos are the way they are
18:19:34  <LordAro> andythenorth: O.o to many ideas... i need to get ottd to get a window that could display the readme info first...
18:19:40  <LordAro> s/to/too/
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18:27:55  <andythenorth> so...goods is water
18:27:58  <andythenorth> and fuel oil is goods
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18:28:09  <andythenorth> but towns in ottd don't use goods for town growth
18:28:12  <andythenorth> by default
18:28:23  <andythenorth> there must be a reason for this in FIRS :P
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18:37:51  <Alberth> LordAro: the news history window may be useful
18:38:51  <LordAro> it may... if only it got its info from a txt file... :D
18:39:42  <Alberth> if it was that simple, someone would have done it ages ago :p
18:40:55  * andythenorth waves action 14
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19:34:16  <Otto> back again...
19:34:30  <Otto> back again
19:34:53  <Alberth> you already said that :)
19:35:09  <Otto> yeah... I notice :-)
19:35:28  <Otto> So the Console thing... Is that something hidden in OpenTTD?
19:36:04  <Alberth> back-tic key
19:36:15  <Otto> ?
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19:36:17  <Alberth> the quote near the escape, usually
19:36:44  <Alberth> or near the ~
19:36:49  <Otto> Not there on a MAC keyboard I'm afraid
19:37:11  <Otto> This sign?  `
19:37:13  <Yexo> it's the key left of "1", above "tab" and under "esc"
19:37:19  <Alberth> the ` character indeed
19:37:34  <Otto> That gives § on my keyboard
19:37:41  <Otto> ok
19:37:54  <Otto> And do I need to press that in OpenTTD?
19:37:57  <Yexo> yes
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19:38:35  <Otto> in what screen? Main game selection (home screen) or in the scenario editor?
19:38:39  <Yexo> doesn't matter
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19:38:59  <Yexo> if you have trouble finding it, in-game (and in the scenario editor) you can also open the console with your mouse via the question mark button
19:39:00  <andythenorth> Otto: what mac keyboard / what language?
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19:39:32  <Otto> Nothing happening here
19:40:01  <Otto> Just the usual mac keyboard... English one I believe
19:40:09  <Yexo> are you still running windows?
19:40:14  <Otto> yes
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19:41:22  <Yexo> try via the gui as I explained above
19:42:43  <andythenorth> Otto: find the left shift key
19:43:00  <andythenorth> type the key next to it
19:43:22  <Otto> this one:    `
19:43:26  <andythenorth> yes
19:43:30  <Otto> but nothing is happening
19:43:33  <andythenorth> that usually opens console for me
19:43:59  <Otto> any other trick to do it?
19:44:04  <andythenorth> hmm...is it possible that otto's key config is wrong?
19:44:07  <Yexo> <Yexo> if you have trouble finding it, in-game (and in the scenario editor) you can also open the console with your mouse via the question mark button
19:44:50  <Yexo> andythenorth: the button to open the console it not configurable in openttd
19:46:23  <planetmaker> it's the key left of "1"
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19:46:49  <MOtto> that went wrong.... sorry...
19:46:57  <MOtto> But I'm in console now
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19:53:37  <mOtto> In again
19:55:11  <planetmaker> well, type in the console literally set scenario_developer 1
19:57:03  <mOtto> ok
19:58:03  <planetmaker> mind that any modification of newgrfs may destroy your scenario/savegame. Also in ways which only become obvious much later
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20:00:24  <Otto> Jeez... why on earth did that one crash...
20:01:04  <Otto> but I typed in    set scenario_developer 1
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20:04:06  <planetmaker> you change newgrfs whereever you always change(d) them.
20:04:14  <planetmaker> in the newgrf window
20:04:26  <Otto> ok
20:04:31  <planetmaker> (you can close the console now again)
20:04:37  <planetmaker> same key as opened it
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20:06:38  <Otto> Thanks, it worked
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20:22:34  <andythenorth> hmm
20:22:40  <andythenorth> default station has brown windows
20:22:55  <peter1138> They're covered in poo.
20:23:01  <Eddi|zuHause> who the hell cares about the default station?
20:23:58  * andythenorth does
20:24:30  * andythenorth doesn't really use other station sets
20:24:52  * planetmaker waves good night
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20:47:36  <__ln__> there are other station sets?
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21:16:16  <Adam_> Hey, I have a dev question. I'm looking through the code, trying to "resolve" this feature request (basically for the hell of it) http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3576?project=1&pagenum=8 . Where in the source can I find GetString? That seems to be where the relevant code sits. If this isn't really a dev channel, could someone point me to one?
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21:22:10  <Adam_> Never mind, found it hiding in plain sight, in strings.cpp.
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21:23:49  <Yexo> Adam_: this is the correct channel
21:23:59  <Yexo> however GetString is not really the function you should change here
21:24:42  <Adam_> Yeah, looked at that, it's really just a special case of GetStringWithArgs, which seems like a "core" function that really has no business being changed.
21:24:51  <Yexo> exactly
21:25:31  <Adam_> FormatString seems similarly "core", but it looks like what I'm looking for.
21:25:37  <Yexo> it isn't
21:25:47  <Yexo> SetDParam sets an argument for the string to draw
21:26:07  <Yexo> so you'll probably want to change line 505 of roadveh_cmd.cpp (in RoadVehCrash
21:26:27  <Adam_> I'll take a look at that, thanks for the pointers.
21:27:54  <__ln__> the thing is that the fix should be multiplayer-safe
21:28:08  <Yexo> fixing that line is multiplayer safe
21:28:35  <__ln__> ok, i didn't check what line that was, just making a general statement a bit late.
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21:29:17  <Adam_> Yup, thanks for the tip. Looks like all I'll need to do is throw some kind of random in to the SetDParam. Thanks!
21:30:47  <__ln__> N + rand() % (num - N)
21:31:09  <__ln__> and that was pseudo-code, don't use rand() really
21:31:16  <Yexo> Adam_: if you want to change it for all vehicles types, modify VEHICLE>CPP:198 instead
21:32:16  <Adam_> Isn't that overridden in, for example, road vehicles?
21:32:16  <Yexo> __ln__: we have RandomRange(num) for that, which returns a number from 0 to num-1 (I think, could be num)
21:32:41  <Adam_> "uint RoadVehicle::Crash(bool flooded)"
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21:33:07  <Yexo> Adam_: see the first line of that function, it calls this->GroundVehicleBase::Crash
21:33:21  <Yexo> which in turn calls this->Vehicle::Crash
21:33:33  <Adam_> I see
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21:36:03  <Adam_> Does anything else besides the news use the passenger count from Vehicle::Crash?
21:36:23  <Adam_> Wouldn't want to break something with a cosmetic fix.
21:38:09  <Yexo> doesn't look like it
21:38:21  <Yexo> it's however used for several new types
21:39:17  <Yexo> for some types (like flooding or the "Road vehicle destroyed in 'UFO' collision!" messages) reducing might be wrong
21:39:26  <Adam_> Good point
21:39:44  <Adam_> Think I might just "fix" each respective crash type individually
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21:39:56  <Yexo> that's probably best
21:39:57  <Adam_> errr
21:40:02  <Adam_> each news call
21:40:42  <__ln__> "10 people abducted."
21:42:04  <Yexo> it's hard to "solve" FS#3576 correctly though, as lowering the number will probably lead to complains that "it's unrealistic that in a bus<>train collision where the train drives 300mph there are survivors from the bus"
21:42:11  <Eddi|zuHause> better than abdicated?
21:42:27  *** Wasila [51b245a4@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
21:42:32  <Wasila> Hiya.
21:42:41  <Yexo> hello Wasila
21:42:45  <Adam_> Shouldn't be too much harder to weight it based on speed, but I know what you mean.
21:43:03  <Adam_> If you weight it on speed, people will complain "but turn of the century train crashes were far more deadly!"
21:43:08  <Yexo> it shouldn't, but the speed of the train is not available in RoadVehCrash
21:43:14  <Yexo> indeed :)
21:43:30  <Wasila> I just wanted to check - in terms of 'http://wiki.openttd.org/Compiling_on_MinGW', are the instructions for installing Subversion correct?
21:43:33  <Wasila> http://wiki.openttd.org/Compiling_on_MinGW
21:43:34  <Yexo> that's the problem with a lot of "bug" reports, or feature requests as it's marked in this case
21:43:48  <Adam_> Can't please everybody
21:44:05  <Yexo> Wasila: that page was updated last month, so I guess they are
21:44:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Wasila: have you tried them? did something not work?
21:44:12  <__ln__> Yexo: 00:42 <@Yexo> it's hard to "solve" FS#3576 correctly though, as lowering the number will probably lead to complains that "it's unrealistic that ..."   <-- then you can send Belugas after them
21:44:53  <Yexo> __ln__: from fs: "This is very alarming, and I would feel very uncomfortable sitting in a train or bus knowing that every single passenger will die in case of any kind of collision. Same goes for aircraft." <- I'd also be very uncomfortable sitting in a train or bus in a computer game
21:44:58  <Wasila> It told me svn was not a valid command
21:45:03  <Yexo> that doesn't stop anyone from making reports like that though
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21:45:32  <Yexo> Wasila: is "svn" in the output if you do "ls /local/bin/" ?
21:45:41  <DanMacK> Hey all
21:45:44  <Yexo> hello DanMacK
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21:47:19  <Wasila> Yexo: I do not understand. Is is not a valid command?
21:47:57  <Yexo> ls = small LS, not Is
21:49:16  <Wasila> I get a whole load of files, including svn.exe and other svn...s
21:51:07  <Yexo> does "/local/bin/svn.exe --version" work?
21:52:12  <Wasila> Yes it tells me something
21:52:12  <glx> maybe /local/bin is not in path
21:52:26  <Yexo> glx: that's what I thought
21:52:34  <Yexo> just wanted to make sure the previous instructions where followed correctly
21:52:50  <glx> I think the wiki should say /usr/local/bin instead
21:53:04  <Yexo> I agree, as that's also used for zlib
21:53:42  <Wasila> So it made me install svn to the wrong place?
21:53:44  <Yexo> Wasila: easiest fix is probably extracting the zip again and doing "mv bin/* /usr/local/bin/" instead of the previous mv command
21:53:45  <Yexo> yes
21:54:07  <Wasila> should I mkdir in /usr/local/bin as well?
21:54:15  <Yexo> if it doesn't exist yet, yes
21:54:38  <Yexo> glx: are you going to change the wiki or shall I do that?
21:54:56  <glx> theorically /usr/local/bin already exists as it is mingw bin dir ;)
21:55:24  <Yexo> mkdir -p is harmless in that case
21:57:19  <Wasila> It appears to work now
21:57:21  <Wasila> Thanks guys!
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21:59:27  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:09:31  <Wasila> It's been a while since I compiled. Do I navigate anywhere in particular before downloading the source?
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22:16:30  <Yexo> wherever you want to store the source, usually some subdir of your home directory
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22:19:06  <Wasila> done. Compiling now.
22:19:08  <Wasila> Bye
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22:25:05  <xQR> how does the game determine whether to offer a bankrupt company to someone (multiplayer server)?
22:25:18  <xQR> people on my server just tried to let a company go bankrupt
22:25:27  <xQR> and it went bankrupt and noone got the offer to buy it
22:25:44  <xQR> they wanted it to merge but now completely lost it, poor guys :P
22:26:23  <Adam_> The game checks whether anyone can afford it, and only offers it if nobody can.
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22:26:26  <Adam_> Just kidding.
22:26:33  <Nite> Hi
22:26:35  <xQR> :P
22:27:26  <Nite> one question before i download 1.1 - is the autoorderview still there permanently?
22:27:48  <Yexo> yes
22:27:58  <xQR> they were relying on merging to work because it did in 1.0.5 - and i didn't change anything in the config regarding that since the upgrade to 1.1.0
22:28:25  <xQR> also i don't find anything in the changelog that functionality changed with 1.1.0 - only FS#4520 which is a small bugfix
22:28:32  <Adam_> http://pastebin.com/0vkEpRhJ here's the bankruptcy code
22:29:14  <xQR> ah thanks
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22:30:21  <Yexo> xQR: there can be multiple reasons why there was no offer
22:30:59  <Yexo> do you have a savegame from before that company went bankrupt?
22:31:30  <Adam_> Companies are asked in order of their performance rating. Was someone with a high performance rating AFK on your server?
22:31:44  <Adam_> because if they had the dialog box open for 90 days without accepting or declining
22:31:57  <Adam_> it'd never be offered to anyone else
22:32:36  <xQR> Yexo yes
22:33:00  <xQR> there should still be an autosave from before that happened
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22:35:28  <xQR> oh Adam_
22:35:32  <xQR> it's the long run server
22:35:42  <xQR> most people playing there are regulars
22:35:47  <xQR> who are there 24/7
22:35:51  <Yexo> xQR: there is a bug in the openttd code, only one company will ever get the offer for the merge
22:35:59  <xQR> the goal is 10 billion, so it takes some time :)
22:36:00  <Yexo> only the company with the best rating
22:36:05  <xQR> so there's always someone afk
22:36:17  <Yexo> so if there was another company with a better rating that explains the problem
22:36:20  <xQR> yeah that might explain it
22:36:40  <Nite> must be a "new" bug
22:36:58  <Nite> in 1.0 many companies could be asked about merger
22:36:59  <Yexo> trying to find that out now
22:37:15  <Nite> first the best rated then down the list
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22:44:19  <Yexo> xQR: could this be the problem? http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/rev/242c860ed566
22:44:38  <Yexo> it's not listed in the changelog
22:45:23  <xQR> 5say the company who wanted to buy is still active, i'll check how many vehicles it has
22:45:26  <xQR> whoops
22:45:34  <xQR> ignore the 5say :P
22:48:27  <Adam_> Well, that's cool. That's the first "big" program I've ever built.
22:50:36  <xQR> 5say no i don't, it just goes bankrupt
22:50:45  <xQR> 5say but the dev pointed another change since 1.1.0 out
22:51:08  <xQR> whoops wrong channel again :P
22:51:13  <xQR> switching too much here
22:51:33  <xQR> i just tried loading the savegame from before bankrupty and found out it's not being offered to anyone
22:51:47  <Yexo> xQR: could you upload that savegame somewhere?
22:51:53  <Yexo> or point out which server it is if you reloaded it on the server
22:52:06  <xQR> nah the players had already restarted the game now
22:52:13  <xQR> but i can upload the savegame, sure
22:52:20  <Adam_> Yexo: just tested the news code, it seems to work, for what it's worth. I agree with you that it may not be a good idea to roll it or something like it into the trunk
22:52:23  <xQR> but let me first check the vehicle limit, so you don't waste your time
22:52:33  <xQR> maybe you are right and it was just the limit
22:52:38  <xQR> it was a big company to be sold
22:55:49  <__ln__> Adam_: there have been many a lot more significant changes introduced in the trunk (if we're still talking about #3576).
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22:57:18  <Adam_> ln: the point Yexo raised is that changes like these are a bit like the color of the bikeshed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_Law_of_Triviality
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23:02:29  <__ln__> appropriately, there is already a feature for choosing the color of individual trains..
23:07:25  <xQR> Yexo: you were right
23:07:30  <xQR> the road vehicle limit was the reason
23:07:39  <xQR> the company to be sold had 137 road vehicles, limit is 200
23:07:56  <xQR> two others had 82 and 85, so didn't get the offer because of that
23:08:03  <xQR> and the last company couldn't afford it
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23:08:35  <Yexo> so I guess that fix should have been part of the changelog
23:09:21  <xQR> yep :)
23:09:27  <xQR> many thanks dude
23:09:30  <xQR> next time i know
23:09:37  <Yexo> you're welcome :)
23:09:39  <__ln__> speaking of which, building a depot does not deactivate the depot tool anymore.
23:10:00  <xQR> isn't that an option in advanced settings?
23:10:04  <Yexo> yes, indeed
23:10:20  <xQR> maybe it was a bug that it deactivated it even when you had that setting disabled
23:10:25  <xQR> and was fixed since 1.1.0?
23:10:26  <Yexo> interface->Keep building tools active after usage
23:10:52  <xQR> *didn't deactivate it
23:10:55  <xQR> ah
23:10:56  <xQR> whatever
23:12:37  <__ln__> i see. but the default was changed for no obviously good reason then.
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23:13:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i thought it's off by default
23:14:24  <Yexo> in 1.1 it's on by default
23:15:01  <__ln__> i don't remember touching the setting, and this is 1.0.5 i'm running.
23:16:03  <Yexo> in 1.0 it's also on by default
23:17:23  <Yexo> @commit 18999
23:17:24  <DorpsGek> Yexo: Commit by rubidium :: r18999 trunk/src/table/settings.h (2010-02-03 23:45:19 UTC)
23:17:25  <DorpsGek> Yexo: -Change: update some of the defaults (Eddi)
23:17:42  <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: you proposed the default value change :)
23:17:46  <Eddi|zuHause> ah. so it's my fault even :p
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23:18:41  <Eddi|zuHause> but that only proves my memory right ;)
23:18:55  <__ln__> a conspiracy
23:18:59  <Yexo> in a way, yes :p
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