Config
Log for #openttd on 19th April 2011:
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00:00:39  <pikka> blehh moin
00:01:16  <pikka> another day another potato
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03:15:09  <g3d> hi, I'm trying to debug problems with saving preferences. I'm on Linux. No preferences are saved when I exit openttd. I see in strace that it opens /usr/share/openttd/openttd.cfg, does it mean it will use it for saving prefs as well? How can I force it to use my home directory?
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03:40:09  <glx> g3d: the search order for openttd.cfg is explained in readme.txt
03:40:53  <glx> but just touch .openttd/openttd.cfg and it should be ok
03:43:21  <glx> well ~/.openttd/openttd.cfg :)
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04:48:59  <Terkhen> good morning
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06:51:49  <LordAro> moin all
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07:08:19  <dihedral> morning
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08:29:00  <andythenorth> mornings
08:29:57  <andythenorth> do I need to handle regearing cargo explicitly in FIRS?
08:30:07  <andythenorth> it's over-writing my cargo in slot 1E currently
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09:07:14  <planetmaker> andythenorth, you do need to handle it, yes
09:07:31  <planetmaker> as in: don't use that slot, if the regearing cargo is or will be defined by NARS
09:08:01  <planetmaker> moin alos :-)
09:20:04  <andythenorth> ok
09:20:09  <andythenorth> I guess I have to figure that out
09:20:17  <andythenorth> I only need to provide GEAR if NARS 2 is present
09:20:22  <andythenorth> otherwise it should be undefined
09:20:43  <andythenorth> for  a vehicle grf I'd just use a CTT, but that's not the method here...
09:24:19  <planetmaker> I guess I never defined a cargo, such I'm not of much help currently
09:26:02  <andythenorth> probably just define it, with action 6 / 7 / 9 or something
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09:43:13  <ZirconiumX> hello all
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10:00:30  <andythenorth> pikka: hi
10:01:30  <andythenorth> not sure how to handle regearing in FIRS
10:01:39  <andythenorth> currently GEAR is occupying 1E
10:01:44  <andythenorth> I could do with it in 1F
10:01:52  <andythenorth> I should define it explicitly in FIRS?
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10:41:52  <Yexo> andythenorth: that will only work if FIRS is loaded _after_ NARS
10:42:04  <Yexo> otherwise nars will overwrite the cargo definition in 1E
10:43:16  <andythenorth> ...because NARS defines that cargo itself?
10:43:24  <andythenorth> whereas most vehicle sets don't define cargos...
10:43:38  <Yexo> <andythenorth> ...because NARS defines that cargo itself? <- I didn't check that, but I always assumed so
10:43:41  <andythenorth> I can move my cargo to 1F and work on the basis that 1E has to be left free
10:43:46  <andythenorth> is one solution
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10:44:09  <Yexo> or you and pikka could both start using GRM and let that pick the correct slot
10:44:20  <andythenorth> tru
10:44:38  <andythenorth> that doesn't cater for old versions of NARS 2 I guess
10:44:56  <andythenorth> hmm
10:44:58  <Ammler> would not matter, if pikka fixes his nars too
10:45:18  * andythenorth would happily let 'someone else' make that decision
10:45:23  <andythenorth> @seen someoneelse
10:45:23  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: I have not seen someoneelse.
10:45:44  <Ammler> making decisions is easy
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10:59:41  <Wolf01> hello
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12:53:16  <Belugas> hello
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13:32:23  <norbert79> Good afternoon
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14:07:46  <Eddi|zuHause> www.eisenbahnstiftung.de/bg/pics/3471.jpg <-- weird. an "electrified" turntable...
14:08:52  <SmatZ> :)
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14:47:06  <supermop> good morning
14:47:14  <SmatZ> hello
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15:00:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r22348 /trunk/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: split ship-specific part of yapf_node.hpp to yapf_node_ship.hpp
15:00:55  <Eddi|zuHause> oha.
15:01:28  <__ln__> eeeenglish onlyyy
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15:04:34  <yorick_> __ln__ hasn't changed a bit, hasn't he
15:05:05  <SmatZ> nope
15:05:08  <yorick_> has*
15:10:43  *** yorick_ is now known as yorick
15:14:54  <__ln__> if i did, how would you know it's really me
15:16:02  <Eddi|zuHause> how do we know now that you are really you?
15:16:21  <andythenorth> it's the same broom
15:16:29  <andythenorth> but the handle has been changed seven times
15:16:33  <Eddi|zuHause> after all, you are obviously not ln-
15:16:36  <andythenorth> and the bristles have been changed three times
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15:17:23  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think MB is going to flip over your cargo schemes in the near future :p
15:17:43  <andythenorth> great
15:17:53  <andythenorth> is this all in some german forum somewhere?
15:18:09  <Eddi|zuHause> of course :p
15:18:17  <andythenorth> I've been talking to him on forum pm, he was making quite reasonable suggestions to me
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15:20:46  <Eddi|zuHause> his latest rant here http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/showthread.php?tid=5270&pid=73255#pid73255 is about the "recycables" cargo being essentially a duplicate of "garbage" with new label, the cargo class of scrap metal (his opinion: shreddered metal is "bulk"), and the reintroduction of "BEER"
15:21:04  <SmatZ> BEER!
15:23:58  <andythenorth> I told him that BEER was by popular demand :)
15:24:05  <andythenorth> he thought maybe it should be Food (Beer)
15:24:33  <Eddi|zuHause> but your "Alcohol" has TE_GOODS, right?
15:26:04  <andythenorth> dunno :)
15:27:04  <andythenorth> recyclables is garbage with new label
15:27:12  <andythenorth> but labels are quite cheap
15:28:23  * andythenorth is a big fan of cargo label scheme
15:28:32  * andythenorth is less a fan of one person controlling it
15:28:46  * andythenorth likes the idea of a cb for cargos to determine refit...
15:31:09  <Eddi|zuHause> the cargo classes were supposed to do that...
15:32:29  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: MB had "BEER" in his first newindustries grf, but he and george decided to drop the cargo in favour of "Food (Beer)" subcargo for ECS
15:32:40  <andythenorth> subcargos are all wrong
15:35:22  <andythenorth> subcargos are a huge mistake
15:35:41  <supermop> what are subcargos
15:35:42  <andythenorth> they look like a clever hack for 'reality'
15:35:45  <supermop> never played ecs
15:35:49  <andythenorth> but they impair gameplay immensely
15:35:54  <andythenorth> Food (beer) is a subcargo
15:36:00  <andythenorth> Goods (cars) is a subcargo
15:36:18  <andythenorth> Metal (steel) is a subcargo
15:36:36  <andythenorth> it looks like a clever way to pack a lot more cargos into a 32 cargo limit
15:36:53  <andythenorth> but is stupid :)
15:38:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Passengers (Workers)
15:38:15  <Mazur> Hm, I've found a bug, and it's visible in PS: a combi signal before two exit signals takes a few seconds to clear, when one of the exits clears.
15:38:36  <Mazur> Just FYI.
15:39:08  <Eddi|zuHause> Mazur: savegame or it didn't happen!
15:43:15  <Mazur> Oh, it happened, 11 seconds.
15:43:17  <Mazur> :-)
15:43:25  <Mazur> Flyspray.
15:43:37  <Mazur> In half an hour, or something.
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16:01:28  <Belugas> mmh... smells like food
16:01:38  <Belugas> obvioulsy!
16:01:42  <Belugas> it's lunch time!!!
16:06:48  <Mazur> Ah, found an answer: the exit line of the station was lacking signals, say for 64 tiles.
16:07:29  <Mazur> I'm guessing it takes time to check all those tiles, along with all other stuff going on.
16:09:01  <Mazur> No, it's the just time it takes for the train to free/leave the exit line.
16:09:13  <Mazur> *duh*
16:09:29  <Eddi|zuHause> that's about what i was expecting...
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16:20:09  * Mazur too.
16:20:30  <Mazur> But I did not see it sooner.
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17:11:45  <Belugas> freaking network
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17:42:28  <Eddi|zuHause> neaking fretwork...
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17:45:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22349 /trunk/src/lang/ (belarusian.txt russian.txt vietnamese.txt):
17:45:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belarusian - 1 changes by KorneySan
17:45:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: russian - 1 changes by KorneySan
17:45:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: slovenian - 32 changes by
17:45:32  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: vietnamese - 1 changes by nglekhoi
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18:00:05  <andyalba> guys, i have a simple x cross over track, how do i stop trains from moving past the first is there isnt a clear track ahead?
18:00:48  <Eddi|zuHause> andyalba: use path signals instead
18:02:05  <Eddi|zuHause> andyalba: like this: http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/attachment.php?aid=3680
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18:04:57  <andyalba> mmm, sorry i dont think i explained it very well, just to make sure.... i have two tracks running next to each other that then hit a signal and then the two tracks merge with two signals after the merge
18:05:34  <Eddi|zuHause> andyalba: same concept.
18:05:51  <andyalba> ah cool, ill need to test it out
18:05:52  <andyalba> thanks
18:07:34  <andyalba> actually on a quick side note, is there a main log where I can see the latest events instead of the popups down the bottom?
18:08:39  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, click and hold the newspaper icon at the top
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18:13:09  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r22350 /trunk/src/pathfinder/yapf/ (yapf_node_rail.hpp yapf_node_road.hpp yapf_node_ship.hpp): -Change: make YAPF hash tables much smaller, it should improve performance significantly (about 15%)
18:18:39  *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc2b25.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:18:57  <Eddi|zuHause> www.eisenbahnstiftung.de/bg/pics/3334.jpg <-- that doesn't look particularly safe...
18:20:46  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r22351 /trunk/src/misc/hashtable.hpp: -Revert (r17101): and reinstall r16546. Hash tables are much smaller now, so it shouldn't cause crash anymore
18:21:07  <Eddi|zuHause> @commit 17101
18:21:09  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Commit by smatz :: r17101 trunk/src/misc/hashtable.hpp (2009-08-07 13:33:55 UTC)
18:21:10  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: -Revert [FS#3065](r16546): large table on stack caused stack overflow on some architectures
18:21:27  <Eddi|zuHause> @commit 16546
18:21:27  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Commit by smatz :: r16546 trunk/src/misc/hashtable.hpp (2009-06-09 23:22:37 UTC)
18:21:28  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: -Codechange: use array member instead of allocating in costructor and freeing in desctructor
18:22:29  <andyalba> thanks Eddi
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18:24:37  <andythenorth> eveninkhs
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18:28:33  <Hirundo> 15% performance improvement in YAPF or 15% in total?
18:28:50  <SmatZ> 15% in total
18:28:56  <SmatZ> of some games I tested :P
18:29:09  <Hirundo> nice
18:29:36  <Terkhen> anything that makes ships a bit faster is very welcome :)
18:30:22  <Alberth> aka an algorithm that can handle large seas of equal values :)
18:30:46  <yorick> someone made a region based yapf once
18:31:10  <Terkhen> sometimes (when I was bored at class mostly) I thought about a better algorithm for ships and failed
18:31:21  <andythenorth> marked routes...
18:31:38  <Terkhen> that can't handle changes in the map
18:31:43  <andythenorth> true
18:31:47  <yorick> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=613485#p613485
18:31:48  <andythenorth> negating some of the benefits
18:31:52  <Eddi|zuHause> the only sensible solution i can make up is pre-calculating the routes between buoys
18:32:14  <andythenorth> can we build a graph?
18:32:23  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly invalidating them on landscape actions
18:32:25  <yorick> hierarchical pathfinding anyone?
18:32:39  <andythenorth> ship pathfinding is just-in-time?
18:32:49  <andythenorth> i.e. it only looks ahead one tile?
18:33:21  <Eddi|zuHause> a found path must be recalculated at any crossing. and for ships, each tile is a crossing
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18:34:48  <peter1138> you could cache the path, but...
18:34:51  <peter1138> we don't
18:36:06  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the cache would also have to be invalidated on any landscaping actions
18:36:12  <Terkhen> hmm... probably checking to see if the path has changed is quite faster than recalculating it everytime
18:36:43  <Terkhen> so I think that is a good idea
18:36:46  <Alberth> it would be bad if that was not the case :)
18:37:46  <peter1138> not any
18:38:18  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: landscaping can both destroy an existing path, as well as create new opportunities
18:38:25  <peter1138> you only need to recalculate the path would take you off water...
18:38:53  <peter1138> (i'm ignoring network game stuff here :p)
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18:41:04  <Eddi|zuHause> in the ideal case, the pathfinder would intelligently switch between a "river mode" (more like YAPF) and a "sea mode" (more like OPF)
18:41:38  <peter1138> does a canal count as lots of junctions?
18:41:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a feeling that OPF is very stupid wrt diagonal ship routes...
18:42:13  <Eddi|zuHause> at least my ships didn't go anything remotely resembling a straight line...
18:42:58  <andythenorth> mine sometimes go parallel to grid instead of diagonal
18:43:02  <Terkhen> ^
18:43:04  <andythenorth> probably accidental though?
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18:44:56  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i was under the impression, the track bits were dynamically calculated by the adjacent water tiles, so a simple canal should be treated as straight track. i have no clue about the internals though
18:47:48  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r22352 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt table/settings.ini): -Change: make YAPF the default pathfinder for ships, don't discourage players from using it
18:50:04  <andythenorth> :o
18:50:12  <andythenorth> did something change in YAPF?
18:50:17  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r22353 /trunk/src/lang/ (52 files in 2 dirs): -Cleanup (r22352): remove unused strings from all language files
18:50:40  <SmatZ> it should be faster now
18:50:51  <andythenorth> I'll try it in my game
18:50:54  <andythenorth> 80% water
18:50:55  <SmatZ> good :)
18:51:06  <SmatZ> a lot of ships?
18:51:15  <__ln__> 80% water, 20% alcohol?
18:51:20  <andythenorth> ;) I'm making a ship set yes / no?
18:51:21  <SmatZ> :)
18:51:37  <andythenorth> last time I tried YAPF for ships was about 3 years ago
18:51:42  <andythenorth> it DOSed my game
18:51:58  <SmatZ> :x
18:52:21  <Eddi|zuHause> it nags you about putting buoys now, so it shouldn't be as bad as back then anyway
18:52:29  <SmatZ> yup
18:52:36  <andythenorth> I had maybe 300 ships, travelling maybe 100 tile routes, no bouys
18:53:59  <andythenorth> I need ground tile suggestions for a farm station
18:54:03  <andythenorth> currently I have 'mud'
18:54:04  <andythenorth> which is ok
18:54:13  <andythenorth> but is there something better?
18:55:24  <Alberth> a farmer would just throw old bricks/stones next to the rail tracks
18:55:37  <Alberth> or concrete plates perhaps
18:56:35  <Alberth> gates to 'store' the cattle
18:59:12  <andythenorth> I wanted to just use the current ground tile
18:59:20  <andythenorth> but there's no easy way to do that
19:00:32  <Eddi|zuHause> there's especially no "mud with snow" graphics
19:02:20  <andythenorth> that is a fair point ;)
19:02:34  <andythenorth> you can sweep mud? :P
19:02:41  <andythenorth> to clear snow?
19:03:21  <Eddi|zuHause> the mud will likely freeze, but it won't have a clean surface...
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20:18:14  <SmatZ> I just heard few secons from a song by Justin Bieber
20:18:22  <SmatZ> hope he gets into puberty soon
20:18:33  <SmatZ> so he loses his youngish voice :x
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20:22:07  <Eddi|zuHause> strangely, i have never heard a song from him in any radio station
20:22:10  <Belugas> i've NEVER heard that guy
20:22:18  <Eddi|zuHause> yet there's such a big fuss about him
20:22:20  <Belugas> not that i feel a need...
20:22:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't get it.
20:22:47  <Belugas> he's young.  he has a cute face.
20:23:02  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but i don't hear his face in the radio either...
20:23:04  <Belugas> look like the New Kids On The Block...
20:23:12  <Belugas> ho.. well.. it's fame...
20:23:31  <Belugas> picture is now more important than the sound
20:23:32  <Eddi|zuHause> every decade has his own "cute young boy"-star
20:23:35  <SmatZ> I noticed a lot of fuss about him... so I was wondering
20:23:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i noticed a lot of fuss, so i stayed away...
20:23:57  <SmatZ> but I don't know anyone who knows his songs
20:24:00  <Belugas> David Bowie had a lot more fuss
20:24:09  <SmatZ> maybe because I don't know any 11-years old girl...
20:24:16  <Belugas> hoho... as did Jimmy hendrix, but it was not the same fuzz :D
20:24:20  <SmatZ> :)
20:26:00  <andythenorth> grr
20:26:11  <andythenorth> FIRS + NARS 2 is kicking my ass :(
20:26:17  <andythenorth> where's my easy money maker?
20:26:40  <SmatZ> ctrl+alt+c
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20:30:34  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: a plane 2048 tiles diagonal
20:30:43  <andythenorth> in 1893 :P
20:30:51  <andythenorth> on a 256 x 256 map :D
20:30:57  <Eddi|zuHause> a zeppelin ;)
20:31:09  <SmatZ> :)
20:31:33  <andythenorth> I could...cheat
20:33:52  <andythenorth> who extended which windows I can clone vehicles from ?
20:33:57  <andythenorth> they deserve a prize
20:34:21  * SmatZ raises hand
20:35:03  <andythenorth> prize on way
20:35:05  <andythenorth> it's invisible
20:35:12  <andythenorth> let me know when you find it ;)
20:35:21  <SmatZ> :-)
20:35:25  * SmatZ found a beer
20:35:27  <SmatZ> YAY!
20:35:38  <andythenorth> you win
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20:35:40  <SmatZ> :)
20:36:00  <andythenorth> are you sure it's not Food (Beer)
20:36:01  <andythenorth> ?
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20:36:43  <SmatZ> no
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20:37:16  <SmatZ> :)
20:39:35  <andythenorth> it's annoying when town growth causes population to fall  :\
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20:41:41  <SmatZ> Deutsche Demokratische Republik ?
20:42:56  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
20:48:31  * andythenorth votes for nap time
20:48:33  <andythenorth> good night
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21:50:10  <Terkhen> good night
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22:14:32  <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.fotos-reiseberichte.de/innerdeutsche-grenze/autobahn-hof-plauen-bei-pirk-01-38a.htm <-- ah... i searched for an image like this years ago...
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22:15:54  <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.fotos-reiseberichte.de/innerdeutsche-grenze/autobahnbruecke-bei-pirk-01-36a.htm <-- a little more panorama
22:17:24  <Eddi|zuHause> construction started 1938, finished: 1993
22:18:19  <Eddi|zuHause> between 1940 and 1991 construction stopped for over 50 years
22:19:55  <__ln__> interesting
22:20:23  <Eddi|zuHause> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Elstertalbruecke.jpg <-- what the bridge looks like today
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22:22:22  <__ln__> germans like long, tall bridges
22:23:45  <Eddi|zuHause> during initial pre-war autobahn planning, long bridges were actually quite rare
22:25:16  <supermop> why masonry instead of poured concrete?
22:25:35  <supermop> even in 38 that sems like an odd choice for something that tall
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22:32:12  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not masonry, it's granite (with a concrete core)
22:32:57  <Eddi|zuHause> (or am i understanding "masonry" wrong?)
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22:36:23  <Eddi|zuHause> oh: and after the construction restarted in 1991, the bows weren't actually used to support the roads, instead, the pillars were extended with concrete, the bows are only optical in that sense
22:40:09  <Eddi|zuHause> the wiki page also says building a new bridge would (probably) have been cheaper
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22:46:16  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a crazy bridge: http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Chemnitz-Bahrebachmuehlenvidukt-2010.jpg&filetimestamp=20101031194334
22:46:52  <Eddi|zuHause> the autobahn was to be extended to 3 lanes per direction, but that wouldn't fit through the bows. so they removed the lower parts
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