Config
Log for #openttd on 30th May 2011:
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00:01:39  <Eddi|zuHause> "Having no government can't be that bad, look at Belgium, they haven't had a proper government for years, and you don't see mad max scenarios happening there either"
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00:27:06  <glx> Eddi|zuHause: it's probably better to have no government than a stupid one ;)
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06:27:18  <andythenorth> morninks
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06:31:40  <planetmaker> monkeying
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06:42:24  <Zuu> monyking
06:43:09  <andythenorth> good gorilla
06:43:22  <andythenorth> bon lemur
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06:48:42  <Terkhen> good morning
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07:16:54  <andythenorth> hmm
07:17:04  <andythenorth> FISH capacities are too large
07:17:07  <andythenorth> wrt other sets
07:17:14  <andythenorth> this is crappy
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07:18:49  <planetmaker> either you fix ship capacities or not
07:18:56  <Terkhen> what other sets?
07:19:00  <planetmaker> but you can't eat the pie and have it
07:19:27  <planetmaker> also, indeed, there's no point to use FISH with other ship sets concurrently
07:19:43  <planetmaker> from our game as I saw it yesterday, they're quite right
07:20:05  <planetmaker> and a good choice of different capacities
07:21:26  <planetmaker> and... the large ships should be able to transport what a normal-sized train can deliver
07:21:59  <planetmaker> and as we found out 'normal-sized' is highly subjective ;-)
07:22:05  <Terkhen> large ships should be able to transport a lot more than a normal sized train :P
07:22:12  <planetmaker> :-)
07:22:41  <planetmaker> which the large 1k capacity ships also do. But that's ok and good
07:22:51  <planetmaker> In my first yacd game I really needed that urgently
07:28:27  <andythenorth> the issue is the never-to-be-solved problem of scale
07:28:37  <andythenorth> the gameplay capacities are ok (imo)
07:29:08  <planetmaker> you worry about scale?
07:29:12  <planetmaker> That's pointless ;-)
07:33:28  <andythenorth> indeed
07:34:12  <planetmaker> as long as the set is somewhat consistent within itself. But even that is difficult with ships
07:36:17  <planetmaker> but I think you use the available range of sizes quite well.
07:36:37  <planetmaker> I'm not sure whether the island trader is too big... maybe slightly. But... dunno
07:39:54  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I'm leaving that one until there are more ships in the range
07:40:03  <andythenorth> it can always go down to ~300t
07:40:57  <planetmaker> I'm not talking about capacity. Rather sprite size
07:41:16  <andythenorth> It's "realistic" :)
07:41:26  <planetmaker> :-P
07:41:45  <planetmaker> in comparison to the Patraikos?
07:46:08  <andythenorth> too much cabin compared to hold space?
07:46:39  <planetmaker> maybe
07:49:14  <andythenorth> http://www.photoship.co.uk/JAlbum%20Ships/Old%20Ships%20Aa/slides/Alexander%20Henry-01.html
07:49:26  <andythenorth> possibly it's just not a good enough sprite :)
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07:49:37  <andythenorth> I know it sticks out a bit somehow
07:55:04  <planetmaker> that ship looks considerably smaller than the island trader feels ingame
07:55:23  <planetmaker> the island trader - to me - feels just short of the Queen Marry 2
07:55:33  <planetmaker> -r
07:55:36  <planetmaker> ?
07:55:37  <planetmaker> whatever
07:56:01  <ChoHag> Queen marry?
07:56:02  <ChoHag> She did.
07:56:08  <ChoHag> Everybody hates him.
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07:59:41  <andythenorth> planetmaker: it's probably the way it's drawn
07:59:54  <andythenorth> accidentally, it's exactly to scale wrt length
08:00:07  <andythenorth> (using a FISH internal scale of 1px = 2ft in – view)
08:00:35  <andythenorth> I didn't devise a scale first, but recently I accidentally discovered that FISH is quite consistent to that scale
08:00:55  <andythenorth> but that ship probably looks bulky in game
08:01:03  <andythenorth> and massive wrt trains etc
08:01:13  * andythenorth -> work
08:01:22  <ChoHag> Work? It's a bank holiday.
08:01:25  <andythenorth> yarp
08:01:49  <andythenorth> this is the life of a capitalist exploiter
08:01:54  <andythenorth> work 8 days a week
08:02:10  <ChoHag> Then die at 30. Yes I know it well.
08:02:26  * andythenorth has passed the death point
08:02:33  <andythenorth> which is surprisingly reassuring
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09:03:18  * andythenorth needs to decided menu names for CHIPS
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09:03:22  <andythenorth> there will be two I think
09:03:28  <andythenorth> one for 'magic' tiles
09:03:36  <andythenorth> and one for 'structure tiles'
09:04:17  <andythenorth> personally I'd rather have them all in one station menu, but the crowd seems to vote against that :P
09:24:48  <planetmaker> * andythenorth needs to decided menu names for CHIPS <-- chip tiles and chip stations
09:25:09  <andythenorth> could work
09:25:30  <andythenorth> I could just make it arbitrary
09:25:33  <andythenorth> CHIPS - Salted
09:25:41  <andythenorth> CHIPS - Unsalted
09:27:30  <planetmaker> :-)
09:29:43  <planetmaker> while that is funny, it's not good interface design ;-)
09:29:47  <Eddi|zuHause> Ketchup & Mayo
09:30:10  <planetmaker> then rather salted and unsalted. Salted clearly is the magic part then
09:30:21  <Eddi|zuHause> (please don't take me seriously at this hour)
09:30:57  <Eddi|zuHause> (Translation: "Pommes Schranke" :p)
09:33:14  <andythenorth> CHIPS - 1
09:33:17  <andythenorth> CHIPS - 2
09:33:18  <andythenorth> :P
09:33:37  <andythenorth> CHIPS - ready made
09:33:41  <andythenorth> CHIPS - make your own
09:39:48  <andythenorth> this ferry is apparently rated to 127 PAX
09:39:49  <andythenorth> http://www.simplonpc.co.uk/Fal_Flushing/Miranda_080723-3725_b.jpg
09:39:52  <andythenorth> I disbelieve it
09:40:22  <Eddi|zuHause> in india, maybe :p
09:40:24  <andythenorth> I think that's a typo :P
09:41:09  <andythenorth> hmm
09:41:22  <andythenorth> this is the same size as the boat I'm currently drawing http://www.simplonpc.co.uk/Fal_St-Mawes_Ferry/May-Oueen_080723-630_b.jpg
09:41:27  <andythenorth> RL capacity 100 PAX
09:41:33  <andythenorth> FISH capacity: 30 PAX
09:42:05  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't really look same size
09:42:14  <andythenorth> as?
09:42:28  <Eddi|zuHause> the one above?
09:42:37  <Eddi|zuHause> or what are you talking about?
09:42:52  <andythenorth> yeah, it's longer than the one above
09:43:04  <andythenorth> I'm just thinking out loud about scale
09:43:12  <andythenorth> it's like scratching a wound
09:43:14  <andythenorth> :P
09:43:20  <andythenorth> I should know better
09:43:51  <andythenorth> nbm
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11:11:55  <Roarrr> Hello, I have problem with OTTD connecting to network, could anyone help, please?
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11:14:38  <Roarrr> anyone?
11:17:11  <Vikthor> Describe your problem and somebody might be able to help, not me though, I am off to lunch
11:17:11  <Rediz> where are you trying to connect?
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11:18:25  <Roarrr> Well, I'm trying to find servers, but i havent found any. The connection mode is on internet. I checked the firewall, its not a problem. I have tried reinstalling the game several times, but nothing.
11:18:57  <planetmaker> and did you check the router?
11:19:20  <Roarrr> check the router for? I don't know much about this stuff
11:19:43  <ChoHag> Are there any Learn OpenGL in 21 Minutes books?
11:19:53  <planetmaker> you're most likely connected to the internet via your modem / router
11:20:06  <planetmaker> it must be set to allow the port, too
11:20:12  <Eddi|zuHause> ChoHag: generally, stay away from "learn in X minutes" books
11:20:34  <ChoHag> Well I don't have 21 days like the normal books.
11:21:04  <Eddi|zuHause> ChoHag: use google and do the tutorial you find there?
11:21:06  <Roarrr> yes, thats right, planetmaker. Im connected via router.  So i have to set ports from router?
11:21:28  <planetmaker> routers usually act as *some* sort of firewall, too.
11:21:31  <ChoHag> They're generally awful.
11:21:34  <planetmaker> depending on their configuration
11:21:42  <ChoHag> Lots and lots on drawing basic geometric shapes.
11:21:56  <ChoHag> Then they stop just as they get started.
11:22:15  <Eddi|zuHause> so? anything further, refer to the library documentation
11:22:46  <Eddi|zuHause> or example code in "real" programs
11:23:15  <Roarrr> So i got to log in  to router and add a new port for OTTD, right?
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11:24:07  <planetmaker> not a. But the port 3979 is the default one. Server announcements iirc go via 3978
11:24:07  <ChoHag> That's the thing. There's a huge gulf between the tutorials and actual code.
11:24:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Roarrr: most routers allow outgoing packets by default, so you must have set some "i am paranoid" setting somewhere
11:24:37  <ChoHag> I've filled in many of the gaps in my head, but I don't have any great need to learn it, so I've never got very far.
11:26:44  <Roarrr> Eddi: Hmm, it works with most other games and i haven't touched router settings at all.
11:26:44  <Roarrr> Planetmaker: thanks
11:27:31  <Roarrr> thanks guys, ill try getting to the router and enabling that port.
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12:10:38  <Roarrr> Hi again
12:10:43  <Roarrr> Planemaker, you here?
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12:11:31  <Eddi|zuHause> he's making planets, not planes...
12:11:46  <Roarrr> sorry:D, Planetmaker
12:12:40  <Roarrr> How do i add/open/forward OpenTTD port/ports from my router?
12:12:51  <Roarrr> What ports does OTTD use?
12:12:57  <Eddi|zuHause> @ports
12:12:57  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
12:13:41  <Roarrr> thanks, so port range is from 3978 - 3979 =
12:13:57  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and both TCP and UDP
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12:17:03  <Roarrr> and to what should they be translated to?
12:18:11  <Eddi|zuHause> most important is you must allow outgoing packets
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12:50:37  <Roarrr> !ports
12:50:41  <Roarrr> @ports
12:50:42  <DorpsGek> Roarrr: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
13:03:48  <Eddi|zuHause> there used to be this great invention, it's called "pen and paper"
13:07:57  <__ln__> however, "pencil and paper" works better in zero gravity
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13:13:46  <Eddi|zuHause> one of these "urban myth" kind of stories
13:14:05  <Eddi|zuHause> you can use a pen upside down, you know
13:15:15  <Eddi|zuHause> they are driven by capillary forces, not gravity.
13:16:15  <Eddi|zuHause> and in fact, pencils are awfully dangerous in spacecraft, because things tend to break off, and debris tends to collect in the strangest places
13:16:20  <Belugas> hello
13:17:37  <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: so why did NASA develop their own pen then?
13:18:09  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: like i said, the entire story is an urban myth
13:18:48  <Belugas> in scuba divig, we're using pen underwater.  perfect tool
13:18:54  <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: i bought such a pen at Dulles airport last year.
13:18:59  <Belugas> dunno abuot space, but i'd believe it sholdbe the same
13:19:28  <__ln__> yes, they say it should work underwater
13:19:48  <Belugas> it does
13:21:20  <Belugas> we're not too sure which hardnest should be used though.
13:22:53  <Terkhen> oh, linux 3.0
14:01:32  <Terkhen> hmmm... should I work or start a new game?
14:03:40  <planetmaker> hehe
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14:28:30  <Belugas> i should not start a game, that's for sure :(
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17:36:45  <Wolf01> hello
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17:45:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22525 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
17:45:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belarusian - 3 changes by KorneySan
17:45:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 3 changes by VoyagerOne
17:45:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 3 changes by Yexo
17:45:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
17:45:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: italian - 3 changes by lorenzodv
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17:53:30  <fjb> Moin Wolf01
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18:21:02  * fjb repaired his bicycle.
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19:11:22  <ChoHag> How long does a secondary industry take to close down with no supplies?
19:14:11  <Terkhen> a random time IIRC, but secondary industries that do not produce cargo will never close
19:14:43  <Terkhen> (default secondary industries)
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20:42:22  <HackaLittleBit> What is the reason that tunnel_map.h and tunnel_map.cpp are not combined
20:42:24  <HackaLittleBit> and same for bridge_map.h and  bridge_map.cpp?
20:43:03  <Yexo> why should they be combined? *_map.h contains map accessors, *_map.cpp other utility functions
20:44:40  <Yexo> and that general statement holds true for tunnel_map.* and bridge_map.*
20:47:42  <HackaLittleBit> I am confused.
20:48:21  <HackaLittleBit> Sorry yexo I don't see it.
20:48:31  <Yexo> you don't see what?
20:48:34  <frosch123> maybe you wanted to ask "why tunnel_map.h and bridge_map.h are not combined?" ?
20:49:09  <HackaLittleBit> no frosch
20:49:19  <Yexo> in that case: the general parts of those files are in tunelbridge_map.h/cpp
20:49:36  <HackaLittleBit> I know.
20:49:38  <frosch123> then i cannot get the intention of your question either
20:50:16  <Yexo> HackaLittleBit: _map.h contains functions directly accessing the map (every function that has _m[t].m* in it should be in a *_map.h file)
20:50:33  <HackaLittleBit> GetBridgeEnd is that not map accessing.?
20:51:26  <Yexo> not directly, it only accesses the map via IsBridgeTile and GetTunnelBridgeDirection
20:51:39  <Yexo> those two functions are in bridge_map.h and tunnelbridge_map.h respectively
20:53:28  <HackaLittleBit> So IsBridgeTile should be in bridge_map.cpp then.
20:54:05  <HackaLittleBit> hehehe
20:54:28  <Yexo> the Is*Tile functions are somewhat of an exception, since they are trivial wrappers around IsTileType(*) && Is*
20:54:48  <Yexo> they can benefit a lot from inlining, which happens more often if they're in the same translation unit
20:55:01  <Yexo> at least with older compilers, not sure how the last versions of gcc handle that
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21:20:54  <HackaLittleBit> Thanks yexo got it.
21:20:56  <HackaLittleBit> But still a bit confused.
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21:27:46  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:28:24  <Eddi|zuHause> HackaLittleBit: basically: *.h contains everything that is inlined, *.cpp everything that is not inlined
21:32:58  <HackaLittleBit> Ah thanks eddy.
21:32:59  <HackaLittleBit> Just tried to reduce amount of files.
21:34:14  <HackaLittleBit> maybe something like tunnelbridge.cpp?
21:34:38  <HackaLittleBit> sorry tunnelbridgemap.cpp
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21:35:31  <Eddi|zuHause> there's this weird wave where sometimes it comes up to join tunnel and bridge code, and sometimes to split it apart :p
21:35:52  <HackaLittleBit> Yeah hehehe
21:36:09  <Yexo> HackaLittleBit: why are you trying to reduce the amount of files at all?
21:36:11  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not like we run out of directory entries on any sane system, so why reduce files?
21:36:13  <Yexo> seems pointless
21:36:35  <Yexo> I'd argue the other way around: some files are way too big and should be split up
21:37:03  <Eddi|zuHause> yep. like drawing functions from *_cmd.cpp ;)
21:37:38  <HackaLittleBit> I tried once to do this with tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp AAAAaaargh.
21:37:39  <HackaLittleBit> I gave up
21:48:23  <HackaLittleBit> Yexo said "trying to reduce the amount of files at all"
21:48:25  <HackaLittleBit> Did you see how many 'map' files there are for wormholes (5).
21:48:26  <HackaLittleBit> that is not helping readability of code (my opinion).
21:48:28  <HackaLittleBit> Ah and now I remember why I was not able to  split tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp.
21:48:29  <HackaLittleBit> That is because it is Tiletype tunnelbridge and not tiletype tunnel and  tiletype bridge
21:48:31  <HackaLittleBit> splitting would slow down game:(
21:48:59  <Yexo> 5? tunnel_map.h, bridge_map.h and tunnelbridge_map.h, which 2 did I miss?
21:49:33  <HackaLittleBit> tunnel_map.cpp
21:49:36  <Yexo> <HackaLittleBit> splitting would slow down game:( <- did you actually test that?
21:49:42  <Yexo> that's a cpp file, not a .h file
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22:05:08  <HackaLittleBit> Nope.
22:05:10  <HackaLittleBit> But I did not forget the tunnel bridge pool.
22:05:11  <HackaLittleBit> I am experimenting a bit with that.
22:05:13  <HackaLittleBit> I think the first step is making a well designed pool for bridges and tunnels
22:05:14  <HackaLittleBit> Only after that you can split that file.
22:06:27  <HackaLittleBit> that was a hunch.
22:07:14  <Eddi|zuHause> really the only things that are currently different between tunnels and bridges are the construction method and the drawing, i don't think it really needs splitting
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22:18:19  <HackaLittleBit> I don't know how you guys think about it but custom bridge heads etc. is only possible (if you do it with bridge heads) with a pool.
22:18:21  <HackaLittleBit> That would give extra code only for bridges.
22:18:22  <HackaLittleBit> Before you should start with a project like that it would be desirable to split that file beforehand.
22:18:57  <Yexo> there is nothing preventing you to do so in your own environment
22:19:16  <Yexo> you could use hg queues or git
22:20:32  <fjb> Why no custom tunnel entries?
22:23:46  <HackaLittleBit> Yexo that is too much to do alone for me.
22:23:47  <HackaLittleBit> I am willing to help.
22:23:49  <HackaLittleBit> fjb shure why not:)
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22:46:14  <HackaLittleBit> thanks yexo , eddy
22:46:15  <HackaLittleBit> time to go
22:46:17  <HackaLittleBit> goodnight
22:48:09  <Eddi|zuHause> <HackaLittleBit> That would give extra code only for bridges. <-- there is the issue of "enhanced tunnels" (rails/other infrastructure on top of tunnel entrances)
22:48:28  <Eddi|zuHause> it's kinda similar to custom bridgeheads
22:48:39  <Eddi|zuHause> although not exactly the same
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22:49:06  <Terkhen> good night
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22:56:33  <HackaLittleBit> eddy I know about all that.
22:56:35  <HackaLittleBit> and all those things are possible if you would have enough space in the map array ( track reservation, signals etc)
22:56:36  <HackaLittleBit> for that you need a well designed bridge pool.
22:56:38  <HackaLittleBit> Two tiles one array
22:56:40  <HackaLittleBit> terkhen goodnight
23:16:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i really hope you will be getting somewhere with this ;)
23:17:05  <Eddi|zuHause> but i certainly don't wish to be in your skin there :p
23:17:45  <HackaLittleBit> I am just tickling your brains not pushing.
23:18:49  <Eddi|zuHause> there was something about templating TileID to refer to different pools, i think it was in copy-paste discussion
23:19:01  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe that is an approach worth pursuing
23:20:15  <HackaLittleBit> I ll have a look at that.
23:20:17  <HackaLittleBit> Thanks
23:20:18  <HackaLittleBit> Time to sleep
23:20:20  <HackaLittleBit> Goodnight
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