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00:02:45 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:04:03 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B789.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16:41 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC539B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 00:28:36 *** fjb is now known as Guest5382 00:28:37 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFFB3C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 00:35:34 *** Guest5382 [~frank@p5DDFD401.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:17:04 *** Guest5201 [wilberforc@drinks.mountaindew.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:22:27 *** AD [wilberforc@drinks.mountaindew.org] has joined #openttd 01:22:27 *** ctibor [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:22:54 *** ctibor [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has joined #openttd 01:23:04 *** AD is now known as Guest5388 01:25:07 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:25:15 *** JVassie_ [~James@host-92-27-149-231.static.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:33:26 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:ecfd:3109:535:8493] has quit [Quit: bye] 01:42:49 *** Lakie [~Lakie@82.152.164.38] has quit [Quit: Sleep.] 02:25:45 *** rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-158-025.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 02:30:10 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-094-220-142-047.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:52:50 *** devilsadvocate [~quassel@109.200.19.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:03:05 *** Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:08:09 *** devilsadvocate [~quassel@109.200.19.188] has joined #openttd 03:29:50 *** Ruudjah [~opera@86.93.109.194] has joined #openttd 04:52:37 *** bodis [~bodis@cpc3-ando3-0-0-cust781.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 04:54:51 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B72903.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:55:07 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B729BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:09:00 *** guru3 [~guru3@81-235-164-123-no21.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #openttd 05:12:06 *** peter1139 [~petern@lachesis.fuzzle.org] has joined #openttd 05:12:41 *** rasco [rasco@tietos.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:12:41 *** __ln__ [~lauri@ssh.ksenos.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:12:43 *** __ln__ [~lauri@ssh.ksenos.fi] has joined #openttd 05:12:53 *** rasco [~rasco@tietos.com] has joined #openttd 05:14:06 *** peter1138 [~petern@lachesis.fuzzle.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:14:57 *** Cursarion^ [ronin@viuhka.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:15:00 *** bodis [~bodis@cpc3-ando3-0-0-cust781.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:15:37 *** guru3_ [~guru3@81-235-164-123-no21.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:16:59 *** Cursarion [ronin@viuhka.fi] has joined #openttd 05:19:37 *** bodis [~bodis@cpc3-ando3-0-0-cust781.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 05:22:12 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop] 05:24:32 *** caracal [~smiler@ns1.niestu.com] has joined #openttd 05:26:03 <caracal> so i must be missing something: whenever i try a scenario that starts in 1920, i cannot build any kind of depot ... using openttd 1.0.4 05:30:00 <Rubidium> yep, you're probably missing vehicles; not all climates get them introduced in 1920 05:30:06 <caracal> not sure what is the point, if i can't build any transport 05:30:07 <planetmaker> caracal: no vehicles available? 05:30:31 <caracal> planetmaker: nope ... only road and ship are even opening, but depots are greyed out 05:30:48 <planetmaker> then only road vehicles and ships are available ;-) 05:30:50 <planetmaker> others later 05:30:59 <caracal> but i can't build them without depots 05:31:25 <planetmaker> there's no train available... so you could built a depot, but no train anyway 05:31:36 <planetmaker> try again in a later year 05:31:49 <caracal> i know there are more than one, but the one i'm looking at right now is hawaiian islands ... tropical, i guess, so sure, i can understand that some things might not be available at that time 05:31:53 <caracal> but nothing at all? 05:32:03 <planetmaker> or in a new game with some newgrfs which provide earlier vehicles 05:32:38 <caracal> this one claims that all required newgrfs are loaded 05:32:47 <planetmaker> yes, the default starting date is 1950. In tropical in 1920 you don't have rail vehicles unless you use a NewGRF 05:33:03 <planetmaker> oh, might claim it wrongly, eh? 05:33:10 <caracal> i sat and watched it on fast forward for two years, no change (well, no change in the menu, at least) 05:33:26 <caracal> planetmaker: i don't care about rail, i just want to be able to build *any* vehicle 05:33:29 <planetmaker> or... all NewGRF required there. Yes. But that doesn't guarantee maglev or trains available 05:33:34 <planetmaker> same for vehicles 05:35:08 <caracal> so i gather what you're trying to tell me is, i need to load one or more additional newgrfs that the scenario doesn't call for? 05:35:45 *** bodis [~bodis@cpc3-ando3-0-0-cust781.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:36:05 <planetmaker> http://wiki.openttd.org/Road_Comparison gives the introduction years of all default vehicles 05:36:21 <planetmaker> caracal: in principle probably yes 05:37:08 <caracal> yeah, i was playing another scenario earlier, and it had rail disabled, but popups kept offering me new rail vehicles ... so the year of availability is irrelevant if you can't build the appropriate depot 05:37:37 <planetmaker> if a vehicle is availabe, you can build its depots. But not before. 05:38:22 <MNIM> that depends on the settings 05:38:31 <planetmaker> uh? 05:38:34 <caracal> i beg to differ ... i saw a half dozen rail vehicles appear in the notices, but never got the ability to build a rail depot 05:38:48 <caracal> which was fine, i was doing air at the time 05:39:39 <planetmaker> caracal: if so, that'd be a bug. But that'd need a savegame to demonstrate that as I've not seen that so far 05:39:45 <caracal> okay, two (hopefully simpler) questions: (1) is there a keyboard shortcut to go in/out of fast forward? (2) kbd shortcut to close popup message windows 05:39:49 <MNIM> see advanced settings -> interface disable infrastructure when no suitable vehicles (...) 05:40:52 <caracal> i just found it odd that a transport sim wouldn't allow you to build, you know, transport <grin> 05:40:53 <MNIM> Delete removes all unpinned windows, if you make sure to pin the ones you want beforehand 05:41:10 <caracal> other scenarios work fine, so am not coming down on the game itself 05:41:25 <planetmaker> MNIM: yes, I completely forgot about that setting... but it won't help you with vehicles. 05:41:32 <MNIM> hmmmh. 05:41:38 <caracal> MNIM: ah, thanks ... that rings a bell ... played openttd a lot some years ago, just now getting back into it 05:41:43 <planetmaker> thus IMHO it's better to keep it on the default 'don't make available, if vehicles not present' 05:43:23 <caracal> so hmm ... i have installed, for example, the "av8 Aircraft Set" newgrf, which says it offers planes "from 1920" ... and yet, no airports can be built in hawaii ... like i said, i must be missing something 05:43:25 <planetmaker> caracal: yes, it's odd that you can configure a scenario like this without getting a warning about missing vehicles. 05:43:34 <caracal> maybe there's a forum discussion about it 05:43:39 <planetmaker> Having it possible shall IMHO remain an option. It's scenarios after all ;-) 05:44:25 <planetmaker> caracal: did you modify NewGRFs? 05:44:33 <planetmaker> on the running game /scenario? 05:44:33 <caracal> right, but i'd assume a scenario maker would want to allow players to build at least one type of transport 05:44:46 <planetmaker> caracal: yes, but scenario makers make mistakes. 05:44:49 <caracal> i did not modify the newgrf settings, no 05:45:02 <caracal> maybe i should have 05:45:44 <planetmaker> you should not (normally). The scenario has its pre-defined list of NewGRFs which one can only change if you enable the scenario_developer tool 05:46:34 <planetmaker> what's the exact name of your scenario, I take it you got it from online content? 05:47:15 <caracal> yes, i got it from the bananas site, it's called "Hawaiian Islands", but i know at least one of the other scenarios i tried yesterday had the same problem 05:47:55 <planetmaker> well... there are probably quite some scenarios (unfortunately) which have that problem 05:48:51 <caracal> ah, so adding newgrfs before clicking "play scenario" doesn't work ... it forgets all those, apparently, in preference to the scenario's settings 05:48:59 <caracal> which makes sense 05:49:14 <caracal> but if i try to add them afterward, it says "this is bad!" <g> 05:50:26 <planetmaker> yes 05:50:28 <caracal> more precisely, "this can crash openttd" ... it hasn't so far, though 05:50:33 <planetmaker> because it is true 05:51:00 <planetmaker> it often is unproblematic to *add* vehicle NewGRFs, though 05:51:03 <caracal> so what you're saying is, scenarios are just hit-and-miss, you take what you get, and some of them aren't, um, optimal 05:51:15 <planetmaker> yes, that's what I'm saying indeed 05:51:28 <caracal> well okay then ... can't complain about contributed content, i guess 05:51:30 <planetmaker> Many scenarios might be old and assume that you indeed do modify / add NewGRFs 05:52:27 <planetmaker> caracal: the easiest solution for you now is: cheat forward into the year 1940 05:52:29 <caracal> some of them at least seem to be really well done 05:52:44 <planetmaker> or 1935 at least 05:53:21 <caracal> i added a couple newgrfs manually and now i can build ships and planes 05:53:24 <planetmaker> that's the least hassle and make no difference really and is 100% safe 05:53:46 <caracal> so yay <g> 05:54:40 <caracal> so, remaining question: is there a fast-forward/normal-speed keyboard toggle? or must i always use the mouse? 05:55:29 <planetmaker> space 05:56:21 <planetmaker> you can assign it to a key you like, if you edit hotkeys.cfg 05:56:29 <caracal> aha 06:07:21 <caracal> and btw, i just found the Hotkeys page: Tab is the ff button, very nice 06:08:54 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has joined #openttd 06:14:57 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0f84fe.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:24:48 *** Markavian [~Markavian@254.128.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:28:27 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 06:29:03 *** ashledombos [~ashledomb@ris91-2-82-227-26-30.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:32:46 <caracal> wow, hawaii is *much* more fun now that i can build vehicles ;) 06:33:13 <caracal> so i guess i could use the scenario editor and add whatever newgrfs i thought were useful, eh? 06:36:54 <planetmaker> o_O 06:37:24 <planetmaker> that'll get you into trouble earlier than later 06:38:01 <planetmaker> don't change industries. ever. 06:38:10 <planetmaker> houses is not unproblematic either. 06:38:35 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 06:38:57 <planetmaker> some train newgrfs mess with cargos, too. 06:39:30 <caracal> what? in the scenario editor, i can do anything i want, right? i'm not talking about changing a running game, just fixing the scenario itself 06:40:34 <planetmaker> not right. 06:40:48 <planetmaker> a scenario is basically the very same thing as a savegame 06:41:03 <planetmaker> Thus the same things go wrong the same way, if you change NewGRFs. Also in the scenario editor 06:41:21 <caracal> that doesn't make sense ... how can you ever create scenarios, then? 06:41:39 <planetmaker> by choosing the NewGRFs. an then creating the map 06:42:03 <planetmaker> same as you create a new game 06:46:53 <caracal> so you're saying that you have to select all the newgrfs *before* doing anything else? 06:47:56 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 06:48:04 <Terkhen> good morning 06:48:37 <Terkhen> caracal: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=55311 06:49:09 <caracal> well okay then 06:49:40 <caracal> i certainly haven't read any of the docs about scenario creation, just figured one could "fix" a problem like i'm seeing, without bringing down the house 06:53:44 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:54:38 <caracal> Terkhen: that seems to be talking about not adding/removing grfs after you start *playing* ... or am i mistaken 06:55:12 <Terkhen> it's about why it is how it is, and the plans regarding this issue 06:55:58 <planetmaker> caracal: 'after start playing' is technically the same as 'within the scenario editor' 06:56:08 <planetmaker> currently at least 06:56:12 <caracal> i see 06:56:27 <planetmaker> thus choose your add-ons prior to creating a map - whether starting a new game or creating a scenario 06:56:51 <caracal> well in this case, the scenario doesn't have any existing vehicles, and all i want to add are vehicle grfs 06:57:33 <planetmaker> as said... adding vehicle newgrfs works 95%. But it's not fail-proof 06:58:26 <planetmaker> and certainly not to be used along the lines of "I can change anything in the NewGRF config" 06:59:29 <caracal> wow 06:59:33 <planetmaker> or in other words caracal: it's just as fail proof as a scenario author can claim "this scenario has all newgrfs readily configured". 06:59:58 <planetmaker> and I know of vehicle newgrfs where that assumption also fails ;-) 07:02:04 <planetmaker> it can - IMHO with a certain right - be argued that the SE lacks quite some functionality if one cannot savely swap newgrfs. Yes... but that's not yet implemented 07:02:26 <planetmaker> ask about that in a year again ;-) 07:08:41 <caracal> i doubt i'll be designing any scenarios 07:09:05 <caracal> but it's nice to know what the editor can and cannot do 07:09:52 <planetmaker> currently it's like ingame just without money and time progression and the option to modify terrain 07:10:00 <planetmaker> and building rivers 07:10:09 <planetmaker> and expanding towns.hm 07:17:45 *** ashledombos [~ashledomb@marvin-18-230.cnt.nerim.net] has joined #openttd 07:26:15 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 07:31:30 *** JVassie_ [~James@host-92-27-149-231.static.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 07:35:49 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 07:36:28 <dihedral> good morning gents 07:36:42 <Markk> The lads then? 07:54:06 *** devilsadvocate [~quassel@109.200.19.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:04:40 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B9C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:18:07 *** devilsadvocate [~quassel@109.200.19.188] has joined #openttd 08:20:03 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC5255.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:25:09 *** JVassie [~James@host-92-27-149-231.static.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 08:29:08 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: could you please send me the source of the long wagon grf? I'd like to get a sort of 'guide vehicle' in order to get some basic structure of the grf 08:29:25 *** Maarten_ [~dutchusa@99-73-209-18.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:29:37 *** Maarten [~dutchusa@99-73-209-18.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #openttd 08:29:40 <planetmaker> I don't really care about cleaned up or not... I'll most likely rewrite it anyway. But that's less than re-invent it ;-) 08:29:44 *** JVassie_ [~James@host-92-27-149-231.static.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:29:48 *** `Fuco` [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:31:12 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC5255.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 08:33:28 *** ar3kaw [~ident@eca18.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 08:37:44 *** ar3k [~ident@eca18.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:38:33 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/longwag.nml (it's against some ancient version of nml, might need some updates) 08:38:54 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/longwag.pcx (that image has 16 views in it, but only 12 are used) 08:38:55 <planetmaker> do you have the dummy graphics, too? 08:39:00 <planetmaker> ok :-) thanks 08:39:17 <Eddi|zuHause> and www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/default.lng 08:39:24 <Eddi|zuHause> but that one's trivial ;) 08:39:42 <planetmaker> yup :-) 08:40:06 <planetmaker> I mostly want to establish the grf structure with parameters, translation tables,... 08:40:17 <planetmaker> but it needs a dummy vehicle, if I want to do that properly 08:40:33 <planetmaker> so... it could just as well use what we want as example 08:40:45 <planetmaker> and it fails currently on the graphics block ;-) 08:40:55 <planetmaker> due to its non-existance :-P 08:41:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i told you, ancient nml ;) 08:42:04 <Eddi|zuHause> r8xx or something 08:43:15 <planetmaker> I wasn't talking about your code when I said 'non-existance' ;-) 08:43:48 <Eddi|zuHause> ah. 08:43:52 <Eddi|zuHause> then i misunderstood you 08:44:24 <planetmaker> that's what's missing locally here so that the grf compiles 08:44:38 <planetmaker> and... I'd like to put in your code there 08:46:15 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that should likely be easy 08:48:44 <Eddi|zuHause> next step would be to update the grf to use these 60+ variables instead of var 45: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=51697 08:49:05 <Eddi|zuHause> to avoid a few of the glitches 08:49:23 <Eddi|zuHause> (tunnels, bridges, foundations, drag&drop) 08:49:26 <Terkhen> oh 08:49:32 <Terkhen> did George test that binary? 08:50:37 <George> http://george.zernebok.net/temp/test7.grf 08:51:17 <George> George> would be hard to make a var to tell the number of steps before the turn? I 08:51:37 <George> At least for the second engive and the following ones? 08:52:42 <George> Currently I planed to do such test with massive GRF code, but if the game would provide it as var it would help me a lot 08:52:52 <planetmaker> ok, that's so-far unimplemented variables, yes, Eddi|zuHause ? 08:52:58 <planetmaker> which the added patch supplies 08:53:01 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 08:53:20 <planetmaker> let's see :-) :-D 08:53:24 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: might be useful to prepare a "use experimental features" parameter 08:55:26 <caracal> i'm getting the impression you can't unload cargo at a station for pickup by another sort of vehicle 08:55:36 <caracal> i must be thinking of simutrans 09:00:19 <Eddi|zuHause> you can, use the "transfer and leave empty" order 09:01:21 <caracal> oh, i didn't see that one 09:01:45 <caracal> ah, found it 09:01:48 <caracal> kewl, thanks! 09:03:05 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, for our grf? 09:03:33 <caracal> works a treat, too, thanky 09:04:12 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... what's the syntax of spriteblocks nowadays? 09:05:34 <planetmaker> hm, it didn't change? 09:05:41 <planetmaker> block or set? 09:06:22 <Eddi|zuHause> nmlc: "input", line 23: Syntax error, unexpected token "{" 09:06:35 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:06:40 <Eddi|zuHause> line 23 is:spriteblock(FEAT_TRAINS) { 09:06:47 <planetmaker> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/300/ 09:07:13 <planetmaker> no feature definition ;-) 09:07:55 <planetmaker> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/301/ <-- updated 09:08:20 <planetmaker> it's called spriteset and spritegroup... for trains 09:08:38 <JVassie> hmm 09:08:47 <JVassie> is actual push-pull operation doable these days? 09:09:09 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: not quite. all grfs fake that one by switching graphics 09:09:18 <JVassie> how does it work? 09:09:46 <planetmaker> check out an early version of ogfx+trains 09:09:53 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a variable for "train has flipped", and depending on that, they use the engine graphics for the last wagon and vice versa 09:10:00 <planetmaker> I removed it as it was too much hassle and has issues 09:10:26 <planetmaker> issues which cannot be resolved in a NewGRF 09:10:48 <planetmaker> like OpenTTD showing the train head in reverse mode where actually a wagon is 09:10:51 <planetmaker> looks... wrong 09:10:53 <Eddi|zuHause> that's also one of the things that could benefit from having a GUI- and map-sprite separately 09:11:06 <planetmaker> only partially ;-) 09:11:08 <planetmaker> but yes 09:11:23 <JVassie> heh 09:11:25 <JVassie> get on it lads :d 09:12:11 <planetmaker> push-pull IMHO needs an openttd implementation and an some means to determine whether a train may operate in push mode 09:12:36 <planetmaker> which probably needs a wagon property which all wagons need to have or so. or maybe only the last 09:13:20 <Eddi|zuHause> yep 09:13:43 <Eddi|zuHause> but the real trouble is telling the vehicle code to loop backwards through the vehicles upon movement 09:14:07 <planetmaker> yes, I know. That's where I gave up :-P 09:14:37 <planetmaker> or rather put that endeavour to rest for an indetermined time period ;-) 09:14:44 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC5255.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 09:20:44 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: well, then solve fs#3569 instead ;) 09:26:08 <Terkhen> scary 09:27:25 <planetmaker> bah. That looks not like something nice to look into 09:27:41 <Eddi|zuHause> basically: bounding boxes of vehicles should be shortened when vehicle is shortened 09:29:09 <Eddi|zuHause> (my test-grf is affected by that as well, since var45 results are unreliable due to vehicles turning at the wrong point) 09:37:26 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 09:45:51 <JVassie> planetmaker: do high settings of station spread still cause game to slow down? 09:47:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably significantly better than when this warning was written 09:48:36 <JVassie> i see no noticeable effects with the setting at 60 09:48:44 <JVassie> 0 vehicles though 09:51:33 <Eddi|zuHause> problematic is delivery of cargo. you need to find all industries in the catchment area 09:51:43 <Eddi|zuHause> on each un loading step 09:52:08 *** Chruker [~no@5634a56d.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #openttd 09:52:16 <Eddi|zuHause> but the search has been changed from "loop through all tiles in catchment area" to "loop through all industries on the map" 09:52:34 <Eddi|zuHause> which turned out to be faster in almost all cases 09:52:53 <Eddi|zuHause> and i believe some things are cached meanwhile 09:55:21 <JVassie> heh 09:55:29 <JVassie> this station doesnt need to worry about that tbh 09:55:42 <peter1139> it still loops over all tiles 09:55:53 <peter1139> (in the station area) 09:56:34 <peter1139> so the performance "impact" is higher spread == larger stations == more tiles to loop through == slower 09:56:47 <peter1139> whether it's problem is another matter 10:00:29 <JVassie> hmm guess so 10:01:01 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has joined #openttd 10:03:41 <peter1139> and of course, if you don't use larger stations, there's no impact 10:05:54 <JVassie> indeed 10:06:38 <JVassie> my station is 46*11 10:07:45 <JVassie> accepts no cargos :p 10:08:02 <peter1139> 46*11 is pretty... big 10:08:11 <JVassie> yeah.. 10:08:24 <JVassie> 46 'platforms' 10:08:43 <JVassie> 20 dont have track though 10:11:08 <Eddi|zuHause> that is fairly irrelevant 10:12:59 <caracal> dang, i've delivered like a dozen eligible loads on this one route, and still didn't get the subsidy 10:13:13 <JVassie> Eddi|zuHause: I dont think its gnna be a problem anyway 10:13:16 <JVassie> was just curious 10:13:30 <JVassie> I dont plan on delivering any cargo 10:16:13 <planetmaker> and of course... without vehicles and cargo... it won't have much (any?) effect either 10:22:59 <JVassie> :p 10:23:03 <JVassie> i was just curious 10:23:10 <JVassie> i got toa certain poitn making it 10:23:19 <JVassie> and got the ottd warning about station too spread out 10:23:25 <JVassie> so went into options to change the setting 10:23:29 <JVassie> and saw the warning 10:23:34 <JVassie> hence curiosity :p 10:35:37 *** keky___ [~stefan@p5098b65a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 10:40:07 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 10:44:35 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has joined #openttd 10:45:13 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:48:14 <Eddi|zuHause> time to celebrate the 20th successful hack against sony in 60 days :p 10:48:51 <planetmaker> :-D 10:50:24 <Terkhen> what happened this time? 10:50:48 <Eddi|zuHause> sql-injection against sony france 10:51:19 <Eddi|zuHause> some 100 thouthand-ish customer email-adresses liberated 10:52:21 <planetmaker> "liberated" :-P 10:54:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure that is the technical term :p 10:54:39 <planetmaker> http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/cets-r0M-source.tar.gz <-- if you're interested, Eddi|zuHause 10:54:53 <planetmaker> a diff would be larger than the current repo, though, and it's completely untested 10:55:26 *** Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has joined #openttd 10:55:29 <planetmaker> and I hope it doesn't break as I defined it as engine and not as wagon. 10:56:03 <planetmaker> I consider to commit this as a draft so we have something to work on and improve on 10:56:07 <planetmaker> Thoughts about that? 10:56:39 <Eddi|zuHause> <stdin>:2:28: fatal error: src/defines.pnml: Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden 10:57:11 <planetmaker> drat. hold on 10:57:48 <Eddi|zuHause> your alignment is off, sometimes spaces, sometimes tabs 10:57:52 <Sacro> damn I hate svn 10:57:55 <Sacro> @seen Bjarni 10:57:56 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 12 weeks, 1 day, 11 hours, 37 minutes, and 6 seconds ago: <Bjarni> thanks 10:58:37 <planetmaker> I forgot to add ALL files ;-). Try again 10:58:54 <planetmaker> yes... it's not beautified, indeed 11:01:22 <Eddi|zuHause> still same error 11:01:56 <planetmaker> hm... 11:02:35 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 11:02:41 <planetmaker> and now? 11:02:49 <planetmaker> seems bundle_src works then not as it should... 11:04:40 <Eddi|zuHause> nope, no change 11:05:01 <planetmaker> he, yes, I also copied the same file :S 11:05:05 <planetmaker> I need definitely more tea 11:12:45 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6C94A.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 11:14:28 <planetmaker> http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/cets_test.diff <-- maybe better :-) 11:16:47 <Yexo> planetmaker: // TODO: should be "return template_wagon;" -- test if newer NML understands that <- nml now does understand that 11:16:51 <Yexo> but please test it :) 11:17:56 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #openttd 11:18:28 <planetmaker> I just kept Eddi's r800 code there ... testing to be done maybe tonight 11:18:43 <planetmaker> but it compiles ;-) 11:19:00 *** Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:19:36 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.175.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:19:56 <planetmaker> but let's update the diff... 11:22:34 <planetmaker> updated 11:24:50 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the repo url? 11:25:18 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 11:25:26 <planetmaker> http://hg.openttdcoop.org/cets 11:26:13 <planetmaker> but... I guess before I commit there anything I'll rename the engine also to dummy and move it to templates, too 11:26:32 <planetmaker> As the articulated code is not really a template... it needs the vehicleID 11:33:16 <peter1139> hg :( 11:36:34 <planetmaker> hg :-) 11:36:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess the whole thing needs to become template, as argument the vehicle id, the filename, and an y-offset into the file 11:37:27 <planetmaker> yes. Not difficult to do really 11:38:09 <Eddi|zuHause> File src/gfx/dummy.png: git binary diffs are not supported. 11:38:19 <planetmaker> use hg import 11:38:29 <Ammler> or qimport 11:38:37 <planetmaker> it's the png version of your pcx 11:38:50 <planetmaker> nothing changed whatsoever 11:39:08 <planetmaker> that would also need a proper template ;-) 11:39:23 <Yexo> other question: are we going to bother supporting TTDPatch at all? 11:39:35 * peter1139 sniggers 11:39:38 <peter1139> ooh 11:39:40 *** peter1139 is now known as peter1138 11:39:43 <Eddi|zuHause> probably not... 11:39:52 <planetmaker> Why do you ask, Yexo ? 11:40:04 <Yexo> because it'll lead to extra work with railtypes 11:40:15 <planetmaker> Probably not only there 11:40:26 <Yexo> and with vehiclesIDs of course 11:40:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think we have enough of a target audience there to bother... 11:40:41 <Yexo> I agree eddi, just wanted it to be clear 11:41:38 <planetmaker> I guess I don't have issues with that decision either 11:41:51 <Eddi|zuHause> nmlc: "src/templates/gfx_dummy_vehicle.pnml", line 101: Unrecognized identifier 'eng_dummy' encountered 11:43:46 <planetmaker> do you use both the latest NML and diff I posted? 11:44:04 <planetmaker> earlier it used to be eng_g3 11:44:17 <planetmaker> but I renamed it to a dummy engine completely 11:46:47 <Yexo> planetmaker: nml doesn't support that yet 11:47:01 <Yexo> you use the name in a switch block before the first item-block with that name 11:47:06 <Yexo> so the name is not yet registered 11:47:18 <Yexo> that should be supported though, so I'll fix that in nml 11:47:45 <Yexo> hmm, actually it already is supported 11:47:48 <Yexo> so it shouldn't fail on that 11:47:56 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: which nml version do you use? 11:48:07 <planetmaker> It compiles here. 11:48:12 <planetmaker> I tested that much 11:48:58 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... disk full... not good 11:49:23 <Eddi|zuHause> says: 0.1.1 (b7e6d30c9445) 11:49:25 <Yexo> compiles fine here 11:49:29 <Yexo> and 0.1.1 is old :p 11:49:39 <Yexo> you need a nightly 11:49:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess that's Ammler's job ;) 11:50:01 <planetmaker> :-D 11:50:11 <planetmaker> disk full is Ammler's job? 11:50:24 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, nah, you can get nightlies just as fine 11:50:25 <Eddi|zuHause> no, providing a newer version 11:50:33 <planetmaker> well... we do? 11:50:39 <Yexo> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/nml/nightlies/LATEST/ 11:50:54 <planetmaker> Still... I recommend you to use a checkout of NML 11:52:42 <planetmaker> Both Yexo and Hirundo do a good job in making old versions of NML obsolete quickly ;-) 11:53:37 <Yexo> actually you'll need r1436 to support that diff 11:54:02 <Eddi|zuHause> then it doesn't help that r1430 is provided... 11:54:04 <Yexo> as r1436 contains a critical fix for using "return x;" which pm uses 11:54:22 <Yexo> in about 6 hours r1436 (or whatever is tip at the time) will be provided 11:54:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Problem: nothing provides python(abi) = 2.6 needed by nml-r1430-suse1130.noarch 11:54:54 <planetmaker> that's why I suggest to use NML repo checkout ;-) 11:54:57 <Eddi|zuHause> need a 11.4 version 11:55:05 <planetmaker> hu? 11:55:28 <Yexo> hg clone http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml && sudo python setup.py install 11:55:44 <Yexo> hmm, missing cd nml probably 11:56:25 <Eddi|zuHause> better if it installs to userspace (~/bin) 11:56:40 <planetmaker> or skip the install and sudo ln -s /usr/bin/nmlc /path/to/nmlc 11:56:43 <Yexo> should also be possible, but you'll have to check the flags it needs for that 11:56:57 <Yexo> if ~/bin if that's in your path :p 11:57:16 <Eddi|zuHause> ~/bin is in my path, yes 11:57:18 <Ammler> I don't think we have full disk somewhere, do we? 11:57:30 <Yexo> Ammler: no, that has nothing to do with you 11:57:33 <planetmaker> I think Eddi|zuHause has ;-) 11:57:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: no, but outdated nml 11:57:47 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, nightlies... 11:57:57 <planetmaker> you don't expect openttd tip either, do you? 11:58:01 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: I would recommend to use nml repo anyway 11:58:03 <Yexo> I guess eddi wants build-on-push 11:58:13 <Ammler> then symlink nmlc to your ~/bin 12:00:31 <Eddi|zuHause> ok. seems to build now 12:00:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: yes, that's what i did 12:01:11 <Ammler> the rpms are basically just for the other packages, not really for public :-) 12:12:58 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:355d:2dc4:77e1:a000] has joined #openttd 12:13:01 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:13:22 <JVassie> hey guys 12:13:31 <JVassie> Eddi|zuHause Yexo planetmaker 12:13:37 <Yexo> hello JVassie 12:13:44 <JVassie> are we considering the option of making long wagons optional? 12:14:19 <Yexo> I think that means doubling the work for artists, so not a good idea 12:14:21 <planetmaker> maybe. But IMHO it basically means to have the same set twice 12:14:30 <Yexo> we should stick with either long wagons or normal-length wagons 12:14:39 <JVassie> planetmaker: 12:14:41 <JVassie> not really 12:14:47 <JVassie> the engines dotn need to change size, or do they? 12:14:52 <JVassie> *dont 12:15:28 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, they would 12:15:56 <JVassie> hmm true 12:15:58 <JVassie> derr >.< 12:16:02 <Eddi|zuHause> basically any vehicle longer than 12m would need two versions 12:16:13 <JVassie> did we decide 24m per tile? 12:16:51 <Eddi|zuHause> not definitely, only as a first guidance 12:17:10 <JVassie> gotcha 12:17:22 <Eddi|zuHause> 26m is probably the longest wagon in the set 12:17:26 <JVassie> do you happen to have a .png with what the 12 (24) views look like? 12:17:36 <planetmaker> I think the long vehicle idea a unique idea and a unique selling point which is definitely worth persuing 12:18:06 <Eddi|zuHause> engines are usually shorter than that 12:18:21 <planetmaker> <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/longwag.pcx (that image has 16 views in it, but only 12 are used) 12:19:00 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: which year is the test engine? 12:19:04 <planetmaker> it'll need a proper graphics template for those vehicles 12:19:13 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, 1877 - 1896 12:19:34 <planetmaker> typical test years :-P 12:19:50 <Eddi|zuHause> because i tried 1880 and 1890 and it doesn't appear 12:19:55 <planetmaker> hm 12:20:04 <JVassie> hmm 12:21:10 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, did you also try grf parameters? 12:21:14 <JVassie> my only concern is our lack of sprite creators currently 12:21:22 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, no, i didn't check those 12:21:35 <planetmaker> it *should* be on by default, but... 12:21:43 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:22:07 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, it's set to "core" and "prussia" 12:22:30 <planetmaker> I'm not sure whether avail_prussia_core = (param_amount < 2) && (param_epoch1 == 1 || param_epoch1 == 2); needs some more parenthesis 12:23:39 <planetmaker> oh... Eddi|zuHause that's the point: it's only climate1 12:23:49 <planetmaker> that's currently bullshit what I did there 12:23:51 <Eddi|zuHause> oh... 12:23:55 <Eddi|zuHause> that'd be it then :p 12:23:59 <Yexo> planetmaker: it doesn't need more parenthesis 12:24:15 <planetmaker> yeah... but a conversion to CLIMATES_ALL ;-) 12:24:35 <planetmaker> climates_available: avail_prussia_core ? CLIMATES_ALL : 0; 12:24:38 <Yexo> add " ? CLIMATES_ALL : CLIMATES_NONE;" at the end 12:24:39 <planetmaker> ^ Eddi|zuHause 12:24:46 <planetmaker> :-) 12:25:00 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... climate cheat doesn't fix this 12:25:17 <Yexo> and "reset_engines" after climate cheat? 12:25:39 <planetmaker> updated patch 12:25:43 *** orudge [~orudge@owenrudge.net] has left #openttd [] 12:27:18 *** orudge [~orudge@owenrudge.net] has joined #openttd 12:27:21 *** mode/#openttd [+o orudge] by ChanServ 12:28:14 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... no... started new game, only one grf, temperate, 1880 12:28:21 <Eddi|zuHause> no engine showed up 12:28:37 <planetmaker> try with -d grf=3 and see what openttd tells you 12:28:48 <planetmaker> whether the engine definition is accepted 12:29:21 <planetmaker> hm... it might also miss on the callback_flags 12:29:39 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-187-3.w109-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 12:29:42 <planetmaker> yes 12:30:02 <JVassie> @ calc 190/20 12:30:02 <DorpsGek> JVassie: 9.5 12:30:43 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, the articulated vehicle CBF is missing 12:30:54 <Belugas> hi hi 12:31:01 <planetmaker> callback_flags: bitmask(VEH_CBF_REFITTED_CAPACITY, VEH_CBF_ARTICULATED_PARTS); 12:31:04 <planetmaker> hi Belugas 12:31:09 <Eddi|zuHause> conceptual thing: model_life := buy period + vehicle life; early retire := vehicle life 12:31:45 <planetmaker> hm? 12:31:52 <Belugas> sir planetmaker :) 12:32:24 <planetmaker> ah. You mean the reliability decay is less then. Agreed 12:32:28 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: model life defines when reliability drops, early retire defines how long before that point the buy menu does not offer it anymore 12:32:56 <Eddi|zuHause> so a vehicle bought at the last possible date, should get a full lifetime of good reliability 12:33:06 <Yexo> yes, agreed 12:33:25 <planetmaker> another patch updated ;-) 12:34:31 <Eddi|zuHause> now... food. 12:34:36 <planetmaker> enjoy 12:35:27 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-52-53.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:35:52 *** Guest5388 is now known as AD 12:42:54 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 12:43:55 <michi_cc> planetmaker: I don't now if you still saw that yesternight, but how about including the G10 as a low axle-weight cargo engine? (Date would be 1910-1925 with 2677 built engines, according to WP) 12:48:04 <JVassie> michi_cc: got a link? :) 12:48:31 <michi_cc> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/PreuÃische_G_10 12:48:37 <planetmaker> michi_cc, just add it :-) 12:49:10 <planetmaker> looks indeed like we need something for that service profile 12:49:29 <JVassie> :) 12:49:32 <JVassie> indeed mi 12:49:35 <JVassie> *michi 12:49:40 <JVassie> add anything ya like :) 12:49:46 <JVassie> doesnt have to be just a core set addition 12:51:09 *** Marcje [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 12:55:37 <MNIM> http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/1/1/2248324/Screens/New%20Handwell%20Co.%2C%2021st%20Oct%201917.png 12:56:14 <MNIM> ...perhaps I should start making my threeway-junctions-with-terminus/roro-stations slightly less complicated >.> 12:57:03 <planetmaker> nah. Rather move the junction out of the town perimeter 12:57:11 <planetmaker> it's a bad place for it. 12:57:22 <JVassie> or 12:57:26 <JVassie> use realistic junctions :p 12:57:51 <MNIM> it's fairly realistic for a ottd junction >.> 12:58:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the station entrance is a little suboptimal 12:58:55 <planetmaker> I'd also consider the station placement not optimal ;-) 12:59:10 <Eddi|zuHause> and you should not mix path and block signals at a junction 12:59:22 <MNIM> yeah, I could probably have used a different setup like a fourway junction with a terminus station 12:59:42 <Eddi|zuHause> you have a signal missing coming from the lower right on the lowest track into the left part of the station 12:59:44 <planetmaker> MNIM, it's always a good idea to keep junctions and stations quit apart from eachother 12:59:56 <planetmaker> keeps things managable 13:00:31 <MNIM> hmmmh, whelp, you're right on the signal 13:01:06 <MNIM> though I had checked them all. :( 13:01:18 <Eddi|zuHause> the exit track from the right part of the station to the lower left needs some work 13:01:28 *** rellig [~rellig@argon247.server4you.de] has quit [Quit: that should not happen] 13:01:59 *** Marcje [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:02:55 <JVassie> MNIM: check this out: 13:02:56 <JVassie> http://jvassie.net/img/FFHBF1.png 13:02:57 <JVassie> xD 13:03:04 <MNIM> hmmmh, I seemed to have nuked that crossover during a reorganization 13:03:21 <Yexo> I miss trains 13:03:34 <JVassie> peter1138: http://jvassie.net/img/FFHBF1.png 13:03:38 <JVassie> the station i was building 13:03:38 <MNIM> yeah, that's where it gets a little too much for me 13:03:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i would draw the exit from the left part to the upper left on the outside of that bridge 13:03:45 <MNIM> also, are those vacutrains? 13:03:57 <JVassie> MNIM, me? 13:04:11 <MNIM> yeah 13:04:20 <JVassie> there are no trains in that shot :p 13:04:40 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: use the "zoomed-in screenshot" option 13:04:50 <JVassie> thru console? 13:04:57 <Eddi|zuHause> no, in the ? menu 13:05:30 <MNIM> oh wait, at the second look it appears it's dutch catenary, not those white vacuum tubes 13:05:39 <JVassie> le awesome 13:05:46 <JVassie> thx Eddi|zuHause 13:06:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i take credit for coming up with the idea, and implementing it, as well ;) 13:06:34 <JVassie> :) 13:06:36 <JVassie> hold on 2 secs 13:06:38 <Terkhen> do you plan to use that station completely? :P 13:06:40 <JVassie> and you can have the zoomed in version 13:06:52 <JVassie> http://jvassie.net/img/FFHBF2.png 13:07:54 <JVassie> Terkhen: its a 'replica' of Frankfurt Hbf 13:08:12 <Terkhen> wow :P 13:08:15 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: what station set is that front building? 13:08:25 <JVassie> british stations 13:08:55 <MNIM> you know what the train orders really could use? 13:09:03 <planetmaker> hm... the tracks look too noisy for my taste, JVassie 13:09:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i know! shunting orders! 13:09:19 <Eddi|zuHause> do i win? :p 13:09:19 <MNIM> shunting orders? 13:09:30 <MNIM> I was thinking more of 'reverse on spot' orders 13:09:36 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: "leave X wagons behind, take Y wagons" :p 13:09:38 <JVassie> planetmaker: how do you mean noisy? 13:09:55 <planetmaker> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_noise 13:10:01 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: use the "trains may reverse in stations" difficulty setting 13:10:08 <MNIM> that would be nice, but complicated 13:10:18 <JVassie> planetmaker: to do with nutracks no doubt 13:10:21 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i don't like these new nutracks either 13:10:29 <planetmaker> that's nutracks? 13:10:32 <Terkhen> nunutracks? :P 13:10:36 <MNIM> looks like it to me 13:10:42 <MNIM> looks similar to me at least 13:10:44 <Eddi|zuHause> yep, since a month or so 13:11:15 <MNIM> hmmmh, perhaps I use an older version, but I like mine better 13:11:19 <MNIM> lets check 13:11:55 <MNIM> version 192 according to my newgrf info screen. 13:12:30 <MNIM> the only issue I have with it really is that the road crossings aren't properly drawn 13:12:36 <michi_cc> Hmm, either the prussian S7 or the T11 could be used for a low-axle weight engine for ~1902-1910, I'm just not sure if including one of them into core would make sense. 13:12:42 <planetmaker> hm, that noise is WAY too much 13:12:57 <planetmaker> it's even worse than some OpenGFX houses 13:12:58 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: that's probably one of the earliest with the new rails 13:13:14 <MNIM> EG-just the standard rail base over the road 13:13:43 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: the road crossings are in a newer version 13:14:38 *** TheMask96 [martijn@sloth.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:15:14 <planetmaker> michi_cc, the main list may also contain engines which are not part of core. It gives us choice to consider 13:17:02 <michi_cc> Sure, I was just looking around because there are no passenger engines with <16t after 1900 (with the exception of the universal T3 with a low HP). 13:17:04 <Eddi|zuHause> T11 as replacement for the T3? 13:17:46 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe switch the T11 for the T12 13:17:55 <MNIM> http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/1/1/2248324/Screens/New%20World%20Transports%2C%2020th%20Aug%202095.png 13:18:00 <MNIM> is that noise so bad? 0-o 13:18:06 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 13:18:25 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: yes, especially when you want to distinguish different railtypes 13:18:31 <MNIM> I kinda like it like this. 13:18:54 <MNIM> it's not like real rail bed is mirror-smooth either! 13:18:54 <Eddi|zuHause> the first three look almost the same 13:19:00 <MNIM> that's true, though 13:19:17 <MNIM> contrast could be better 13:19:18 * planetmaker prefers rather low-noise graphics for this game 13:19:26 <MNIM> hmmmmh 13:19:33 <planetmaker> I don't say 'no noise' 13:19:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the opengfx grass also has pretty high noise 13:19:48 <MNIM> huck it, imma nuke that reningly junction and redo it 13:19:51 <Eddi|zuHause> additionally to being rather dark 13:19:54 <MNIM> hmmmh 13:20:04 <MNIM> that's Opengfx+landscape Im using there 13:20:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't like opengfx for those three reasons: darkness, noisiness and dullness 13:20:42 <planetmaker> Yes, but the grass may have, that's natural surface roughness. Houses, buildings, tracks, roads, vehicles should not that much 13:21:01 <planetmaker> dullness? 13:21:24 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: ever compared the factory with the original one? 13:21:32 *** TheMask96 [martijn@greed.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 13:21:40 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: T12 has almost double HP over the T11 and a longer build period, so that is kind of a bad deal. 13:21:53 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, I might have done more than most 13:22:26 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it looks totally empty, abandoned, like any factory around here... 13:23:13 <MNIM> hmmmmh 13:23:42 <MNIM> I kinda abandoned the standard factories after having discovered the ECS sets 13:23:50 <planetmaker> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=947871#p947871 <-- and you're still talking of this version? 13:23:58 *** sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #openttd 13:24:53 * MNIM nukes the bridge he torched a thousand times before! 13:24:55 <planetmaker> and you haven't even yet seen its construction stages ;-) 13:25:05 <MNIM> and the rest of the town along with it ]:-D 13:25:47 <planetmaker> the ttd factory (and steel mill) are so terribly bad there. 13:26:47 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: but they have almost the same usage area 13:27:58 <JVassie> planetmaker: http://jvassie.net/img/FFHBF3.png 13:28:05 <JVassie> does it look better with those tracks? 13:28:06 * MNIM attempts to build a cloverleaf junction 13:29:10 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Sure, besides the axle weight there isn't much in favour of the T11. Maybe including the S7 for low axle-weight is a better idea as there's a gap in the express engines right now till the S10 comes. 13:29:11 * MNIM summons an amount of money and starts cracking 13:29:18 <Hirundo> I'd suggest to not build cloverleafs 13:29:48 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: i think rather the historic buy-periods should be extended 13:30:46 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: i'm currently leaning to taking the T11 for local/commuter, and let the P8 handle the stronger main passenger railway 13:31:34 <michi_cc> Makes sense if the buy period of the T11 gets extended a bit. 13:32:16 <Hirundo> MNIM: Something along the lines of http://wiki.openttd.org/Tetrathorp-Junction generally works better, because allows larger curve radii (ie more speed) 13:32:25 *** Westie [~westie@raptor.typefish.co.uk] has joined #openttd 13:33:09 <MNIM> I don't like those inner two curves though 13:33:14 <MNIM> just a little too sharp 13:33:27 <Hirundo> you can quite easily make those larger 13:34:10 <MNIM> yeah, but the fun is in trying to limit the space and amount of terraforming used of course :p 13:36:02 <MNIM> and of course my lines don's exactly intesect at perfect positions 13:36:34 <Eddi|zuHause> now the P8 is the first engine requiring heavier rails 13:37:42 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe take the S6 instead of the S10? 13:38:32 <Eddi|zuHause> although it is only marginally faster than the P8 13:38:48 <JVassie> i presume this is a choice for the core set? 13:38:58 <JVassie> not for the set ingeneral? 13:39:28 <Eddi|zuHause> yep 13:39:29 <Eddi|zuHause> core 13:39:32 <JVassie> :) 13:39:36 <JVassie> btw Terkhen: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Frankfurt_Main_Hauptbahnhof_6229.jpg 13:39:45 <JVassie> thats what it looks like in real life 13:39:54 <MNIM> hmmmh 13:40:07 <Terkhen> wow, that's huge 13:40:14 <MNIM> I never got why they design terminus stations IRL 13:40:46 <Terkhen> to demolish only half of the buildings in the city instead of all of them :P 13:41:08 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: S6 would reduce the gap a bit and incidentally comes at the same time as the P8, making the heaver railtype more interesting. 13:41:24 <JVassie> MNIM / Terkhen, you heard about the plans for Stuttgart Hbf? 13:41:33 <Terkhen> no 13:41:59 <JVassie> the plan is to rip up the current terminus 13:42:08 <JVassie> and make a new through station underground 13:42:16 <JVassie> turned thru 90 degrees 13:42:31 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: they try to do that in Stuttgart... 13:42:47 <JVassie> ? 13:42:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think they'll try that ever again anywhere :p 13:42:53 <JVassie> ah 13:42:58 <JVassie> yeh 13:43:10 <planetmaker> I doubt they will. Indeed 13:43:23 <MNIM> hmmmh 13:43:26 <MNIM> sounds interesting 13:43:33 <planetmaker> 5 billion Euro for that station project, though ;-) 13:43:56 <MNIM> I also kinda wonder if it would be possible to make bent stations in ottd possible 13:44:03 <JVassie> nah MNIM 13:44:07 <JVassie> not with the current map array 13:44:14 <MNIM> that would make mountainous trains a lot more awesome 13:44:26 <michi_cc> IMHO the target should be to always have 4-5 (maybe a bit more including electrics) engines available without too big gaps in the service profile (i.e. it's okay to not always have all four pax profiles, but have at least something slow for local and something fast(er)). 13:44:26 <MNIM> how is a station represented on the map, then? 13:44:32 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: germany was at the brink of a revolution because of that station :p 13:44:44 *** Lakie [~Lakie@82.152.164.38] has joined #openttd 13:44:52 <MNIM> as a special building which happens to have rails on top of it, or the other way round? 13:45:07 <Hirundo> It's just ones and zeroes really 13:45:16 <MNIM> if it's function on top of rails it could have loads more flexibility than currently exhibited 13:45:30 <Hirundo> All the stuff per tile has to fit in 9 bytes, with some extra information stored outside the map 13:45:30 <MNIM> those ones and zeros represent something, hirundo 13:45:34 <JVassie> michi_cc: i agree 13:45:39 <MNIM> 0-o 13:45:40 <MNIM> wat 13:45:56 <MNIM> nine bites? 13:46:02 <MNIM> /nine/? 13:46:07 <JVassie> yussir 13:46:17 <MNIM> *le gasp* 13:46:19 <Hirundo> Yes, that's 72 bits in total 13:46:34 * MNIM multiplies that with 1024^2 13:46:36 <MNIM> actually 13:46:57 <MNIM> @calc 72*1024*1024 13:46:58 <DorpsGek> MNIM: 75497472 13:47:19 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: the funny thing is, 1024^2 is exactly 1 MB 13:47:38 <MNIM> yeah, 1000vs1024, I know 13:48:03 <MNIM> but 72 megabite is less impressive than 75497472 bites :P 13:48:03 <Eddi|zuHause> so a 1024^2 map uses 9MB 13:48:36 <MNIM> imagine needing to take that much bites of a hamburger 13:48:58 <Eddi|zuHause> 9MB is actually ridiculously little, compared to most modern games 13:49:03 <MNIM> true 13:49:12 <JVassie> indeed 13:49:15 <MNIM> that's why I went :0 at nine bits per tile 13:49:21 <MNIM> I expected at least twice that 13:49:22 <JVassie> *bytes 13:49:23 <JVassie> not bits 13:49:29 <JVassie> ;) 13:49:32 <MNIM> yeah, bytes. :P 13:49:41 <MNIM> who doesn't confuse 'em sometimes? 13:49:49 <JVassie> What would be awesome is rewriting OTTD to allow up to say 100 bytes per tile 13:50:09 <Yexo> that would be really easy, but not awesome 13:50:17 <JVassie> 100MB for a 1024^2 map 13:50:24 <JVassie> it would be easy?!?! 13:50:30 <JVassie> explain! 13:50:31 <JVassie> :p 13:50:41 <Yexo> sure, just extend the _m2 struct 13:50:53 <MNIM> it would be nice to have some representative structure in the map 13:51:08 <JVassie> Yexo, why not awesome? 13:51:10 <Eddi|zuHause> so: conclusion: P8 and S6 first to use heavier railtype around 1906, around same time, should we introduce larger cargo wagons to go with that railtype? 13:51:18 <JVassie> i reckon so Eddi|zuHause 13:51:26 <Yexo> because simply allowing the rest of the code to use 100 bytes instead of 9 doesn't magically add any features 13:51:32 <Hirundo> What's the point of 100 bytes of memory, when only 9 are used? What are you going to do with the other 91? 13:51:34 <MNIM> tile data divided up into information regions: one defines ground/sea underneath 13:51:38 <Eddi|zuHause> historically, that was also the time when freight speed was increased from 35km/h to 45km/h 13:51:49 <JVassie> Yexo, i thought that was what stopped new features beign worked on, the lack of more map bytes 13:52:02 <Yexo> certainly not 13:52:05 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: no. that was never the reason 13:52:06 <MNIM> the next one defines the type of tile (infrastructure/town/industry) 13:52:09 <Yexo> more a proper way of extending them 13:52:37 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: that's what it currently does already 13:52:40 <Yexo> JVassie: http://devs.openttd.org/~yexo/extra_map_bytes.diff <- there you go, 91 extra bytes per map tile 13:52:46 <Yexo> just needs saving and loading them 13:52:52 <MNIM> yes, but not in a very flexible way! 13:53:14 <MNIM> you can't define a new infrastructure, for example 13:53:18 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: but in a very compressed and fast way 13:53:43 <MNIM> ottd's main issue is not memory but cpu in my view 13:53:46 <Yexo> MNIM: defining "new infrastructure" is exactly what was done with "NewObjects" 13:53:50 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: you can define new infrastructure easily 13:54:01 <Yexo> and yes, cpu time is the limit, not memory 13:54:37 <MNIM> would I be able to define, say, diagonal rail stations or road with it? 13:54:40 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: but using more memory does not automatically make things faster 13:54:45 <Hirundo> Using more memory only makes that worse, though, because of more cache misses 13:55:17 <Eddi|zuHause> not every algorithm is a speed/memory tradeoff 13:55:18 <Yexo> MNIM: I don't see why not 13:55:19 <Hirundo> Although that may be offset by using the extra bytes to cache often-used information 13:55:24 <MNIM> in a way that is understandable to a coder using only C? 13:55:28 <Yexo> but just defining how they're stored in the map array doesn't make them magically work 13:55:32 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: the main problem with diagonal stations is graphics, imho 13:56:10 <Eddi|zuHause> then you have to do pathfinder additions, because a single station tile may now contain two platforms 13:56:20 <Yexo> and the newgrf specs, as currently the railtype specs assumes there are only non-diagonal station tiles 13:56:25 <Eddi|zuHause> means a change of various preconditions/assumptions 13:56:43 <Eddi|zuHause> the map array is the least of the problems 13:57:11 <MNIM> hmmhhh 13:57:38 <MNIM> that exactly my point 13:57:39 <planetmaker> it always looks easy. And then the details hit 13:57:56 <MNIM> stations are defined as special tiles named 'station' 13:58:06 <MNIM> which you can drive through and find a path through 13:58:14 <planetmaker> and much more ;-) 13:58:26 <MNIM> now if you would alter that system to a system that says "this is a rail" 13:58:43 <MNIM> nothing would be changed in pathfinding, right? 13:58:57 <Terkhen> trains wouldn't have destinations 13:59:03 <Yexo> not perse, no 13:59:06 <MNIM> now if you gave this "rail" tile a special property, being, "station" 13:59:09 <Eddi|zuHause> no, MNIM, tiles are already called "rail" 13:59:14 <Yexo> but you'd still need a way to make a distinction between station / non-station tiles 13:59:14 <planetmaker> the difference between rail and station is that: stations are destinations 13:59:29 <Eddi|zuHause> and have a special property that means "this is a station" 13:59:59 <Yexo> MNIM: also stations are drawn in a completely different way from normal rail tiles. Station tiles can't have signals, they can't have junctions, etc. 14:00:00 <MNIM> hmmmh 14:00:01 <planetmaker> station tiles know when and how they may be passed through. But so do rail tiles 14:00:57 <MNIM> that's what I mean! stations, bridges and tunnels all have special attributes which don't exactly hold up in the real world 14:01:02 <planetmaker> thus a station tile is already a rail tile with 'add-ons' 14:01:11 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: check http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/export/22604/trunk/docs/landscape.html 14:01:45 <MNIM> they don't have signals or anything! 14:02:04 <MNIM> most stations Ive seen have loads of signals 14:02:17 <Yexo> adding signals to stations on the map array is not a problem, however how exactly these signals should work is problematic 14:02:35 <MNIM> so they can for example park two trains after each other, which isn't possible 14:02:52 <MNIM> (...in OTTD) 14:03:04 <Yexo> MNIM: in RL trains don't go to "any free platform at a given station", they go to "platform 1", or "platform 3", but it's defined where they go to 14:03:22 <Yexo> MNIM: and if you park two trains after eachother, but the one in front needs to reverse? 14:03:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: well, in Paris gare de l'est, they decide the platform like 15 minutes before the train arrives 14:04:06 <MNIM> the same would happen as if they were on normal track 14:04:21 <MNIM> that is, they can't, and should not in the first place! 14:04:35 <Eddi|zuHause> in germany, they decide the platform 3 years before ;) 14:04:49 <Yexo> eddi: interesting, I did not know that 14:04:52 <Eddi|zuHause> (unless there's delays and stuff) 14:05:08 <planetmaker> "Wegen Verzögerungen im Betriebsablauf, fÀhrt heute ICE xyz auÃerplanmÀÃig auf Gleis3" 14:05:20 <MNIM> same here 14:05:34 <MNIM> though, I don't know how you guys do it 14:05:34 <planetmaker> (which translates to "because we messed up, things are different" 14:05:55 <MNIM> but I often specify which platform a train needs to go to with waypoints 14:06:20 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yep, but there's still a difference between "we have a plan, but we don't stick to it", and "we don't have a plan, we just make it up as we go along" 14:06:43 <MNIM> especially at stations mixing my three train formats (UL-28 tiles, L-14 tiles and N-5 tiles) 14:09:02 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: which is especially annoying if you don't end up on the platform directly next to the train that you want to reach, which leaves <2min later 14:09:33 <MNIM> Ah. so that's what limits bridges and tunnels in only two directions. 14:09:37 <MNIM> hmmmhhhhh 14:09:46 <MNIM> sometimes I wish I was a better coder 14:09:58 <MNIM> hmmmh 14:10:05 <MNIM> it's kinda interesting to know though 14:10:27 <MNIM> there's actually people working on tunnels and bridges with (limited) signals on it! 14:10:36 <MNIM> and it supposedly works too 14:10:52 <Eddi|zuHause> it actually doesn't, but that's another story 14:11:44 <Yexo> afaik nobody is working on proper support for it 14:11:56 <Yexo> the patch you can find in the development section is a hack that will break in several cases 14:11:59 <MNIM> support can be made! 14:12:07 <MNIM> oh. 14:12:08 <planetmaker> go right ahead 14:12:08 <MNIM> well 14:12:22 <MNIM> most stuff breaks if you handle it wrong 14:12:24 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: it uses a totally wrong approach 14:12:35 <planetmaker> there are zillions of things which can be improved 14:12:40 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-008-213.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 14:12:48 <MNIM> of course, that's the coders dilemma 14:12:56 <Yexo> what such a feature needs is splitting a bridge in separate tiles, on each of which you can place signals (and stations, and....) 14:12:59 <MNIM> so much code to write, not enough fingers (and brains) 14:13:28 <Eddi|zuHause> an off-map storage for "wormhole" tiles 14:15:22 <MNIM> from what I gathered the current hack places a signal at the wormhole foot and then controls the train's behaviour directly instead of letting it pay attention to any (not really existing signals)? 14:15:39 <Terkhen> IIRC the coder of that patch started a new patch to support signals in tunnels and bridges properly, but left it incomplete 14:15:43 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. something like that 14:16:33 <peter1138> i once had custom bridgeheads working! 14:16:38 <peter1138> they were flawless 14:17:49 <MNIM> according to the suggested improvements on the wiki they are only 50% done with that 14:17:51 <MNIM> then again 14:18:06 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: but if they had been included back then, we wouldn't have bridges-over-everything now 14:18:17 <peter1138> how so? 14:18:30 <MNIM> it says that diagonal clearing and leveling isn't done either, but it works very damn well for a feature that doesn't exist 14:18:58 <JVassie> so 14:18:59 <MNIM> http://wiki.openttd.org/User:HackaLittleBit/Tunnel_Signals 14:19:07 <JVassie> what features are possible with more maps bytes? 14:19:15 <MNIM> anyway, that's the hack which isn't(shouldn't) be working? 14:19:27 <Terkhen> MNIM: the people that decided to create that page (suggested improvements) have not been updating it much 14:19:30 <MNIM> jvassie: theoretically or practically? 14:19:32 <Yexo> MNIM: have you been reading http://wiki.openttd.org/Requested_features ? 14:19:36 <MNIM> yeah 14:19:45 <Yexo> that page is for several patches outdated or outright wrong 14:19:47 <JVassie> practically 14:19:47 <MNIM> but from my observations it's rather outdated 14:19:50 <MNIM> ...ninja'd 14:19:51 <MNIM> no idea 14:19:57 <MNIM> theoretically, unlimited 14:19:59 <Yexo> and in no way an official "this is the todo list" page 14:20:11 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: afair that was one of the things that didn't work out with celestar's custom bridge heads, because the wormhole behaviour of bridges made it impossible to have a train stop at a signal on the bridgehead 14:20:17 <MNIM> but in the end it all depends on the willpower and intellect of the coder 14:20:28 <MNIM> just try creating a perfect junction 14:20:35 <JVassie> define perfect 14:20:44 <peter1138> i don't remember if i had signals on custom bridgeheads 14:20:48 <Terkhen> I'm pretty sure that free time also plays a role :P 14:20:49 <MNIM> most effecient imaginable 14:21:20 <MNIM> tekrhen: kinda included that in willpower, but yeah, you could say it deserves separate mention 14:21:24 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: even if you didn't, i'm pretty sure that was easier before wormhole-bridges were introduced 14:21:28 <Yexo> but how efficient a junction is depends on train length 14:21:37 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, bridges have always been wormholes 14:21:59 <peter1138> or was that tunnels? lol 14:22:02 <peter1138> been too long 14:22:31 <Terkhen> for me doing RL stuff is what requires willpower, not doing OpenTTD stuff :P 14:22:40 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, anyway, i want diagonal bridges :S 14:22:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know how trains behaved on the old bridges, but there were definitely real bridge tiles inbetween 14:22:48 <peter1138> yeah 14:22:52 <MNIM> Yexo: Im not sure, but Ive seen 28 tile long trains go through junctions faster than five tiles long 14:22:52 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i do want that, too :) 14:23:26 <MNIM> terkhen: does that include complicated and boring coding jobs? 14:23:34 <Terkhen> yes 14:23:44 <Terkhen> mostly because RL stuff is also complicated and boring coding jobs 14:23:50 <Yexo> the complicated parts are often the most fun 14:23:56 <Terkhen> ^ 14:24:22 <JVassie> heh 14:24:44 <peter1138> i found doing utf-8 fun 14:24:47 <peter1138> but then i'm mad 14:25:20 <peter1138> should i have used ucs-4? :p 14:25:49 <JVassie> Is there anyway to get a free and legal (old) version of visual studio that anyone knows of? 14:26:01 <__ln__> how old? 14:26:08 <MNIM> legal? 14:26:11 <JVassie> as recent as possible 14:26:11 <peter1138> how free? 14:26:12 <MNIM> hee, don't ask me 14:26:19 <peter1138> and why not visual studio express? 14:26:26 <Eddi|zuHause> how legal? 14:26:31 <__ln__> how visual? 14:26:45 <MNIM> are we on a roll here? 8rolleyes* 14:26:54 <JVassie> VSE doesnt include full MSDN library 14:27:15 <Terkhen> JVassie: you can get express for free, and MSVC via dreamspark if you are a university student 14:27:22 <Terkhen> that's how I got my copy :P 14:27:29 <JVassie> not a uni student :( 14:27:36 <JVassie> even though im 20 :p 14:27:45 <__ln__> become one 14:28:06 <JVassie> I wonder if doing a course at OU counts 14:28:07 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the easiest thing to do: go to the immatriculation office and say: "i want" 14:28:50 *** Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has joined #openttd 14:28:56 <Terkhen> JVassie: I saw a lot of authorized places for spain that were not universities, just try :P 14:29:57 <__ln__> Terkhen: what edition of MSVC do you actually get through dreamspark? 14:30:16 <Terkhen> visual studio 2010 professional 14:30:20 <JVassie> 9 for 2005 Visual Studio Standard through Amazon >.> 14:30:54 <__ln__> Terkhen: but not the even more advanced ones that have static analysis and stuff? 14:31:10 <JVassie> you need ultimate for that __ln__ 14:31:25 <Terkhen> probably not, I don't know much about different versions of MSVC :P 14:31:36 <Chris_Booth> Terkhen: you can also get MSVS free from MSDN AA as a student 14:32:07 <Terkhen> I only use it to debug openttd and because my project is a lot less buggy with it than with mingw 14:32:09 * JVassie tries to get verified 14:32:32 <JVassie> hmm 14:32:50 <JVassie> I have no activation code or ISIC card 14:33:29 <Yexo> the dutch government just accepted legislation forcing websites to to ask users "for unambiguous consent to place any unnecessary cookies" such as cookies from advertising companies 14:34:10 <Terkhen> Chris_Booth: what do you require to sign up on that? IIRC I checked it but found dreamspark easier 14:34:14 <MNIM> jay 14:34:40 <Yexo> jay? I'd rather say boo 14:34:43 <Chris_Booth> Terkhen: MSDN AA you need to find your university/School in the list 14:34:52 <Terkhen> same thing than dreamspark then 14:35:03 <JVassie> - An Open University 'confirmation of registration' for 60 points or more. 14:35:13 <__ln__> than -> as 14:35:20 <Chris_Booth> then you use your university log in 14:35:39 <JVassie> interesting 14:35:45 <JVassie> Chris_Booth: does it support OU? 14:36:07 <Chris_Booth> shoudl do JVassie 14:36:09 <MNIM> yexo: they are forcing websites to ask people first before they are legally allowed to place cookies 14:36:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: as with all "internet laws", they probably meant well, had no clue, listened to too many lobbyists, and screwed up the whole thing beyond repair 14:36:16 <MNIM> what's not to jay? 14:36:21 <Chris_Booth> if you know what region of the UK OU should be found in 14:36:45 <Yexo> MNIM: a lot of websites that currently provide free content do so because they gain there profit via advertising 14:36:46 <MNIM> well, besides the practicality of the idea, that is 14:36:52 <JVassie> should be milton keynes 14:36:53 <Chris_Booth> JVassie: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/academic/dd861349 14:36:57 <Yexo> the advertising is profitable _due_ to those tracking cookies 14:37:01 <Chris_Booth> try and find it in there 14:37:02 <MNIM> advertising can be done in other ways 14:37:10 <peter1138> yay is now spelled jay? 14:37:16 <Chris_Booth> but I would guess the OU is where ever you have to send your work to 14:37:22 <Yexo> no tracking cookies -> advertising is less profitable -> either less content or more adverts 14:37:48 <MNIM> yexo: does your tv have tracking cookies? 14:38:03 <JVassie> ooh 14:38:09 <JVassie> is XNA game studio any good? 14:38:14 <Yexo> MNIM: I don't have a tv, which is mostly caused by the huge amount of advertisement between shows 14:38:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: but actually, when the person being tracked must take a consent action, the adverts to that person should be worth more 14:38:36 <MNIM> and you wanna imply advertisement isn't fricken annoying already? 14:38:40 <Yexo> edd: not more than now 14:38:50 <MNIM> (on the internet, that is) 14:39:07 <Yexo> MNIM: no, but without tracking cookies we'll either get more adds or more annoying adds (popups, anyone?) 14:39:17 <Chris_Booth> JVassie: never used it 14:39:32 <Yexo> and I'd rather have somewhat relevant adds than completely random ones 14:39:50 <Terkhen> Chris_Booth: I remember now, they required me to contact with one of the departments of my university; dreamspark only needed my student email 14:39:51 <MNIM> you'll get 'em anyway if you don't have a popup blocker 14:39:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: i generally turn off flash because of annoying ads 14:40:10 <Chris_Booth> Terkhen: that is probably true 14:40:22 <Chris_Booth> but atleast MSDN AA works for JVassie 14:40:32 <Chris_Booth> or should do if he is a computing student 14:41:17 <Chris_Booth> and I know my university isn't singed upto dreamweaver 14:41:25 <Chris_Booth> but is on the MSDN database 14:42:33 <Terkhen> ok :P 14:43:41 <Chris_Booth> I am also not sure the difference in MS products you get from both, but I guess MSDN AA would be more computing based, such as MS server and extensions such as SQL or Exchange 14:43:55 <JVassie> Chris_Booth: im not technically a current OU student :p 14:44:23 <Chris_Booth> you are not JVassie? but can you access the MSDN stuff? 14:44:45 <JVassie> well i get up to the poitn where i can put stuff in the basket 14:44:52 <JVassie> it then asks for me to login 14:45:00 <JVassie> but it doesnt look like it will use my OU login 14:45:32 <JVassie> and if i choose register, it asks for an account identifier 14:46:09 <Chris_Booth> I am not sure, since you are not realy a student 14:46:15 <JVassie> Please enter a valid username and password. Note that you must register on this webstore to be able to sign in -- an account you may have with your institution is not sufficient. 14:46:25 <JVassie> sigh :( 14:46:29 <Chris_Booth> it should just take the login you use from you webmail 14:46:59 <Chris_Booth> maybe you or your unviersity needs to add you to the list 14:48:41 <MNIM> hmmmmh, now I got a decent looking junction, now I need to install lighting and move that town 14:48:42 <SpComb> dreamspark used my university's web SSO 14:48:53 <SpComb> MSDNAA, I think it was just an email 14:49:06 <SpComb> or there might have been some kind of in-house manual approval as well 14:49:33 <Chris_Booth> it was 3 years ago I did the MSDN AA signup so not a clue 14:49:45 <JVassie> ah no worries 14:49:50 <JVassie> my need for it isnt essential 14:49:58 <Chris_Booth> think I had to fill a form out at university and give it to the head of maths & computing 14:50:02 <JVassie> could fidn another IDE I guess 14:50:06 <JVassie> *find 14:50:13 <JVassie> anyoen suggest a good IDE for C++? 14:50:20 <MNIM> I had to cheat a bit by going outside my originally intended bounding box, but it's not too bad in the end, I guess 14:50:24 <peter1138> erm, you don't need msdn for the ide... 14:50:31 <Terkhen> geany; on windows it is missing the console though 14:50:39 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 14:50:44 <Chris_Booth> you can get VS Express for the IDE 14:50:50 <peter1138> my preference is vim, mind you 14:50:51 <Chris_Booth> or you can use netbeans 14:51:06 <Chris_Booth> Netbeans is quite nice 14:51:08 <JVassie> peter1138: didnt need MSDN for the IDE 14:51:09 <peter1138> if you swing that way 14:51:14 <peter1138> (hurr hurr) 14:51:22 <JVassie> OU used Netbeans for Java 14:51:24 <Terkhen> IIRC codeblocks on windows includes mingw so you don't have to set it up, but I don't like it much 14:51:34 <peter1138> codeblocks 14:51:42 <peter1138> maybe eclipse if that supports c++ 14:51:55 <JVassie> michi_cc: what other core set stuff are we thinking? 14:51:58 <Chris_Booth> I never realy like Eclipse 14:52:08 <JVassie> havent got much planned for 1920s onwards yet 14:52:56 <Chris_Booth> only reason I would se Eclipse is if I wanted to make and android app 14:53:32 <SpComb> vim is quite fine 14:53:46 <Chris_Booth> never used vim, but I am sure its nice 14:53:46 <SpComb> IDEs are a pain 14:54:04 <JVassie> not when learning a language 14:54:16 <SpComb> IDEs are terrible tools to learn when learning a language 14:54:28 <SpComb> since they prevent you from actually understanding how the app is actually built and launched 14:54:33 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has joined #openttd 14:54:56 <SpComb> IDEs should really only be used once you understand the project/build process and what the IDE actually does 14:54:57 <Chris_Booth> and the fact they write most the code for use 14:55:14 <Yexo> SpComb: you can argue that both ways: it makes launching your first app easier, so the user can focus on the langauge, not on the tools 14:55:15 <SpComb> otherwise you'll be completely lost when it somehow breaks or you have to actually *do* something other than just copy-paste example code 14:55:30 <SpComb> yeah well, languages should also be simple enough to be useable without IDEs :) 14:56:06 <Yexo> it's not just the language, no ide usually means you're back to the commandline 14:56:13 <Chris_Booth> SpComb each to ones own, if you like and IDE use one, if you don't you will never have to 14:56:14 <Yexo> which is for a lot of users a scary thing 14:56:33 <SpComb> well, they should get comfortable with it if that's what the stuff they do is based on 14:57:04 <Yexo> agreed, but they can also do that after a while 14:57:42 <SpComb> e.g. python's pretty easy to get started with without any IDEs 14:58:21 <SpComb> Chris_Booth: it's not just that, it's also a matter of understanding the tools you're using, since things will inenvitably break, or you'll want to do things that aren't immediately apparent 14:58:51 <Terkhen> we started learning C++ using DevC++, which was already old and unsupported back then 14:59:08 <Terkhen> I wish they have taught us properly, it made me lose a lot of time :P 14:59:12 <Chris_Booth> I am not sure about that, I have been coding for 6 years now and never wanted to not use an IDE 14:59:16 <Terkhen> s/have/had/ 15:00:05 * Terkhen had to unlearn many things regarding the tools and then relearn them properly 15:00:24 <michi_cc> JVassie: Eddis proposal with the S6 is still open. Makes sense from a timeline POV, even if it is significantly less powerful than the S10.1 15:01:32 <SpComb> I had the download-sdk-and-click-create-project-and-start-coding thing with QML and Symbian now 15:01:48 <SpComb> and our project's build stuff is a right mess because of it 15:02:43 *** rellig [~rellig@argon247.server4you.de] has joined #openttd 15:02:48 <SpComb> but on the other hand, I e.g. installed the Harmattan SDK stuff today, and the IDE for that was broken, but I was able to launch the emulator and install the .deb manually from the command line :) 15:03:05 <SpComb> (although the emulator was still completely broken and the app even more so) 15:03:43 <SpComb> Chris_Booth: it works fine if you stick with the stuff that works fine, but inenvitably I tend to find that anything nontrivial tends to wander outside of that area pretty quickly 15:03:59 <SpComb> at which point all the IDE hand-holding just gets in the way of understanding and getting the thing working 15:07:57 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:08:24 <SpComb> abstractions are nice and absolutely required in programming, but it's still beneficial to know what's behind them 15:09:49 <peter1138> it helps if you can learn to code with intellisense 15:09:53 <peter1138> *without :S 15:10:56 <JVassie> fair enough michi_cc 15:10:56 <planetmaker> michi_cc, I'm not sure that engine adds anything... 15:10:57 <JVassie> :) 15:11:30 <planetmaker> it's introduced at the same time as the P8, both cater passengers 15:12:07 <planetmaker> both have about same axle weight 15:12:17 <michi_cc> Well, wasn't my idea :) 15:12:20 <planetmaker> what would be the reason to not have the P8 do its job? 15:12:37 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:13:52 <MNIM> Bah 15:13:59 <MNIM> I wish you could dig down with tunnels 15:14:01 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i thought of speed limit on passenger wagons, but no speed limit on long distance wagons 15:14:02 <planetmaker> if at all, it might replace the S10 15:14:17 <MNIM> like placing a tunnel on a flat tile 15:14:28 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, speed limit on wagons... what's that to do with the engine? 15:14:33 <planetmaker> livery override? 15:14:44 <Eddi|zuHause> so if all passenger trains go 60km/h, it makes sense to put a cheaper P8 on that, instead of a more expensive S6 15:15:24 <Eddi|zuHause> successively increase passenger train speed later, similar to freight train speed 15:16:13 <planetmaker> the speed difference of the two engines is 10 km/h: 100 vs. 110 15:16:47 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but speed limit would only be relevant to long distance trains 15:17:04 <Eddi|zuHause> which exactly separates these two engines 15:17:27 <planetmaker> sorry, I don't follow 15:17:37 <JVassie> MNIM 15:17:38 <planetmaker> both have the same speed approximately. 15:17:40 <JVassie> how come? 15:17:44 <JVassie> got a pic? 15:17:54 <planetmaker> how would you limit one of the engines? 15:18:33 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 15:18:37 <planetmaker> and with which justification limit passenger wagons after the P8 to 60km/h while allowing them to travel 110 after the S6? 15:18:41 <MNIM> hmmmh, lemmy make a little example of what I mean 15:18:49 <Eddi|zuHause> two passenger wagon classes: "regional" with speed limit (at 1900 around 60km/h), "long distance" without speed limit 15:19:09 <planetmaker> ok. And why would the P8 not pull both? 15:19:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it would 15:19:24 <Eddi|zuHause> it realistically also did 15:19:34 <planetmaker> that's what I assumed ;-) 15:19:36 <Eddi|zuHause> but the S6 is faster, so better suited for long distance 15:19:49 <planetmaker> so you take the 10km/h faster as the reason? 15:20:07 <JVassie> we only have 1 commuter loco sorted so far :p 15:20:27 <planetmaker> JVassie, P8 is the multi-purpose work horse 15:20:39 <Eddi|zuHause> the P8 would be slightly slower, but would be cheaper, so better for regional passenger, which doesn't need the speed 15:21:02 <JVassie> P8 would cover passenger, local and commuter? 15:21:11 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: "commuter" at this point means the railways around berlin 15:21:34 <Eddi|zuHause> that what later becomes the "S-Bahn" 15:21:37 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, well. I guess I have no strong opinion either way 15:21:49 *** ice2 [~anton@114.79.12.60] has joined #openttd 15:21:55 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: at this point in a game, you likely don't have a lot of major cities anyway 15:21:59 <planetmaker> If you think it makes sense. Though I think we could currently do without 15:22:12 <JVassie> well Eddi, if you start in 1850 you might well do 15:22:13 <JVassie> :p 15:22:21 <JVassie> by the 1920s 15:22:31 <planetmaker> If we have sprites abundantly, we can still consider to move this to core 15:24:07 <planetmaker> Though we might want to continue this coverage list into the post-WW2 era 15:24:26 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, DRG stock is next 15:24:48 <planetmaker> having more engines there might make the choice for or agains engines in the late 20s also easier :-) 15:24:59 <Eddi|zuHause> but what's currently in the DBSet is a rough guide 15:25:10 <planetmaker> yes 15:25:17 *** ashledombos [~ashledomb@marvin-18-230.cnt.nerim.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:25:34 <MNIM> http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/1/1/2248324/Screens/New%20Handwell%20Co.%2C%202nd%20Nov%201917.png 15:25:36 <MNIM> like so 15:25:36 <JVassie> DBSet was obviously written when the 116 ID limit was in place 15:26:17 <MNIM> not like the advanced tunnels set, where you can simply build (some things) on top of the entrance, but you still need to terraform down 15:26:24 <JVassie> hmm 15:26:35 <MNIM> but where the tunnel entrance itself points down 15:26:44 <JVassie> see what you mean 15:26:52 <JVassie> i solve it by making the area bigger :p 15:27:21 <MNIM> true, but I always try to build within existing confines 15:27:27 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: that might actually not be too hard to implement 15:27:42 <MNIM> which, in my view, is one of the very challenges that make it fun 15:27:44 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: just replace the tunnel building mechanism with the bridge building mechanism 15:27:50 <MNIM> hmmmmh 15:28:15 <MNIM> well, replace tunnel head with bridge head, keep tunnel underground, you mean? 15:28:36 <Eddi|zuHause> tunnel head and bridge heads are almost the same 15:28:44 <Eddi|zuHause> internally 15:28:48 <JVassie> oooh 15:28:52 <JVassie> i smell new feature :p 15:29:03 <planetmaker> custom tunnel entrances might work, if the tunnel entrance is replaced by a(n action5?) which shows the entrance at the tile border 15:29:13 <planetmaker> and draws a flat tile on top 15:29:19 <planetmaker> might look ugly, though ;-) 15:29:56 <MNIM> well, that could be solved with making sprites 15:30:13 <planetmaker> oh, many things could be solved by that. 15:30:21 <planetmaker> @seen someone 15:30:21 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: someone was last seen in #openttd 35 weeks, 2 days, 21 hours, 51 minutes, and 12 seconds ago: <Someone> indeed 15:30:26 <planetmaker> ^ lazy guy though 15:30:28 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: you need 4 sprites per climate, and probably around 10-20 lines of code 15:30:45 <MNIM> hmmmmh 15:30:58 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, if you use the foundation approach you might only need two 15:31:05 <MNIM> are newgrfs built with C++? 15:31:12 <planetmaker> but yes... 4 makes more sense. 15:31:15 <Eddi|zuHause> no 15:31:16 <planetmaker> MNIM, no 15:31:29 <MNIM> hmmmh, in that case, tough luck 15:31:34 *** ice2 [~anton@114.79.12.60] has left #openttd [] 15:31:36 <MNIM> C++ I might just attempt 15:31:46 <planetmaker> uhm... you didn't understand the problem ;-) 15:32:02 <MNIM> I didn't? 15:32:19 <planetmaker> custom tunnel entrances need code support within OpenTTD. And sprite support by its base set(s) 15:32:41 <planetmaker> that's got little to do with NewGRFs - initially 15:32:47 <MNIM> ouch. 15:33:15 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: start at src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp 15:36:39 <peter1138> you'll need quite a lot of gui changes too 15:36:59 <JVassie> where can the source be found? openttd.org i presume? 15:37:26 <Eddi|zuHause> "svn co svn://svn.openttd.org/trunk" 15:37:44 <planetmaker> or... hg clone http://hg.openttd.org/trunk.hg ;-) 15:38:03 <Eddi|zuHause> or http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/trunk 15:38:34 <peter1138> or git clone git://git.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.git 15:38:34 <JVassie> yeh got it thx lads :p 15:38:34 <michi_cc> or git clone git://git.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.git 15:38:36 <peter1138> hah 15:39:01 <JVassie> looks like fun to me 15:41:22 <planetmaker> hg or git are more suitable for people toying with patches IMHO 15:42:46 <JVassie> hmm 15:43:11 <michi_cc> Regarding DRG rolling stock, how is the plan regarding railtypes? Explicitly distinguish <16t, <18t, >18t etc or do it more like DBrails seems to do it, i.e. just have main line and branch line? 15:43:35 <JVassie> well were usign axle weights afaik 15:43:41 <JVassie> so I guess sticking with that? 15:43:55 <planetmaker> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2763 <-- michi_cc 15:44:09 <michi_cc> Simplified case would mean to classify the axle weight relatively, i.e. 16t for the early trains and then somewhere in the DRG era put all with <16t into the branch line class. 15:44:26 <planetmaker> no, we can support that explicitly w/o relative stuff 15:44:40 <planetmaker> people can then upgrade. I mean... that's easy-peasy 15:45:11 <JVassie> so whats the major roadblock currently in terms of expanding the number of bridges? 15:45:14 <michi_cc> It means more railtypes though, because the current scheme would make for example BR01 and BR03 redundant. 15:45:25 <planetmaker> JVassie, *someone* is it. He's a slacker 15:45:39 <JVassie> >.> 15:45:44 <JVassie> more specifically? 15:46:11 <planetmaker> michi_cc, not really, does it? We have 16, 18 20, 20 and 22.5 15:46:36 <planetmaker> JVassie, it simply needs doing 15:46:46 <JVassie> aww come on 15:46:48 <JVassie> :p 15:46:52 <JVassie> thats no explanation 15:47:25 <peter1138> heh 15:47:29 <peter1138> i wrote newgrf bridges once 15:47:31 <peter1138> i had a patch someone 15:47:35 <peter1138> *somewhere 15:47:38 <peter1138> _oddly enough_ 15:47:50 <JVassie> find it 15:47:52 <JVassie> fix it 15:47:59 <michi_cc> That would make up to 8 types including catenary, which is quite a lot already. The bold types in the issue only indicate 16 and 20 for non-electrified right now. 15:48:12 <planetmaker> B is 18ton 15:48:23 <planetmaker> but yes, it's electrified 15:48:52 *** bodis [~bodis@cpc3-ando3-0-0-cust781.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 15:49:21 <planetmaker> one could add Bn w/o catenary, if electrification of 18t track bothers people 15:49:32 <planetmaker> then it's 6 types 15:49:41 *** devilsadvocate [~quassel@109.200.19.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:50:05 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: the difference between 18t and 20t versions of engines doesn't matter in that proposed track set, indeed 15:50:07 <planetmaker> Though I think the 5 types is ok. 15:50:35 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why 18t versions in the DRG-era (e.g. BR 03) would not be "core" 15:51:45 <Chris_Booth> with nuTracks is there a way to disable Very High Speed Rail? (the unlited rail) 15:51:52 <michi_cc> But then there's no need at all to build more than the 20t track type, if there are no lower-axle weight engines. 15:51:53 <Chris_Booth> unlimited 15:52:24 <planetmaker> but there are such engines 15:52:31 <JVassie> Eddi|zuHause: got that test .grf for longer wagons to hand pls? 15:52:43 <JVassie> Chris_Booth: check the parameters 15:52:53 <planetmaker> JVassie, build the diff I linked earlier ;-) 15:53:16 <JVassie> im wanting to send someone the .grf :p 15:53:32 <michi_cc> So either the Bn track is needed, or track types of engines aren't aligned exactly with reality but simply chosen based on gameplay into heavy rail and lighter rail. 15:53:52 <Chris_Booth> JVassie: I will have to read the readme then since in the nice Parm GUI I can't find it 15:54:07 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: that's the problem i have with this as well ;) 15:54:36 <JVassie> how many track types are we limited to? 16 total? 15:54:44 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: yes 15:54:50 <JVassie> kk 15:54:50 <planetmaker> I tend towards allowing for some artistic license wrt track type usage 15:55:51 <michi_cc> Using all 16 is not a good idea though, especially if you want to allow space for narrow gauge, rack rail, transrapid and whatever else somebody could come up with. 15:55:54 <planetmaker> though I could live with 6 track types 15:56:02 <planetmaker> 8 already sounds too much to me 15:56:14 <Terkhen> metro :P 15:56:34 <JVassie> mmm 15:56:35 <planetmaker> as I'd expect to have a monorail, metro, transrapid, narrow gauge tracks available for other means of transport concurrently 15:56:57 <Eddi|zuHause> the proposed 10, 2 for metro, 2 for narrow gauge, leaves 2 for rack and transrapid 15:57:32 <planetmaker> it feels to me like too much micromanagement 15:58:04 <planetmaker> 5, maybe 6 track types which make a difference still sound like they add fun. 15:58:16 <planetmaker> Really more, just for rail... dunno 15:58:30 <Eddi|zuHause> the "realistic" reason for having the 18t versions like BR 03 was because they didn't manage to upgrade the tracks 15:58:37 <Chris_Booth> I like speed limited rail 15:58:52 <Chris_Booth> means I can run all trains at stations 15:59:05 <Chris_Booth> then split networks into highspeed and low speed 15:59:07 <michi_cc> So the real question is, should the player be rewarded for upgraiding rails more than once, or do we use that purely to have a reason to include some more engines? 15:59:13 *** devilsadvocate [~quassel@109.200.19.188] has joined #openttd 15:59:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: speed limits alone are boring, because they have almost no significance to freight 15:59:35 <JVassie> mmm 16:00:00 <Chris_Booth> Eddi|zuHause: I only use them in mixed cargo stations to stop fast trains slowing/stoping all the time 16:00:02 <JVassie> can we parameterise axle weights? ;p 16:00:31 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: the game has no concept of axle weights 16:00:35 <Chris_Booth> or maybe I have a mixed cargo junction with highspeed and low speed trains 16:00:40 <Eddi|zuHause> this purely depends on the used track set 16:01:01 <JVassie> well I presume were plannong on releasing one 16:01:05 <JVassie> *planning 16:02:48 <michi_cc> Maybe something along http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/302/ ? 16:03:33 <JVassie> hmm 16:03:49 <Chris_Booth> would slower track not have a high tonnage? 16:04:01 <Chris_Booth> since it has less track stress? 16:04:09 <JVassie> mmm 16:04:12 <Chris_Booth> otherwise there is no reason to use it apart from date 16:04:15 <JVassie> Ameecher just asked me that 16:04:28 *** Amis [~Amis@5400EA0B.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #openttd 16:04:34 <Chris_Booth> and you said? 16:04:40 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why my original proposal has both slow and fast versions for the higher weights 16:04:56 <JVassie> so if the axle weight is larger than the limit, it cant use that track fullstop? 16:05:12 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: either that, or have really high running cost 16:05:27 <planetmaker> michi_cc, yes, I can live with that. 16:05:36 <planetmaker> But pretty please not more rail track types ;-) 16:05:42 <JVassie> Ameecher suggested that trains above the limit should be limited in speed 16:06:16 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: that's difficult, unless you implement it on a per-engine-basis 16:06:51 <JVassie> a lot of work to do it per engine, or just a difficult feature anyway? 16:07:24 <michi_cc> We could even drop the speed limit completely, why have S 1 with 90 km/h *and* low axle weight if the speed can only be used on a better track? 16:07:25 <planetmaker> it would IMHO defy the axle weight categorization 16:07:41 <planetmaker> ^ @ JVassie 16:07:51 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: i think just not allowing is enough 16:07:55 <JVassie> ok 16:08:21 <planetmaker> michi_cc, yes, possibly. But it could be considered a step up in signaling technique, too 16:08:21 <Chris_Booth> I can understand weight limiting a train for a full train, so 240t max 16:08:27 <Chris_Booth> but not with axel wight 16:08:36 <planetmaker> Chris_Booth, but axle weight is what happens in RL 16:08:36 <JVassie> well axle wight is what counts# 16:08:46 <michi_cc> And even in reality the track type isn't what is limiting the speed, it's the track alignment that does 16:08:47 <JVassie> its like an elephant vs a stiletto 16:08:52 <Chris_Booth> planetmaker: this is not RL 16:09:06 <planetmaker> don't you say :-P 16:09:16 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: i'd like to drastically lower the curve speed penalties 16:09:27 <JVassie> <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: either that, or have really high running cost <-- how easy is it to charge a load of extra money? 16:09:38 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: there is a callback for that 16:09:40 <Chris_Booth> I would have an ingame use to limit a train by power to weight ratio 16:09:46 <Chris_Booth> but not a axel qeight 16:09:48 <JVassie> so its easily done? 16:09:49 <Chris_Booth> weight 16:09:54 <Chris_Booth> that is just silly imo 16:09:59 <JVassie> :s 16:10:03 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: not easy, but possible 16:10:07 <JVassie> ok 16:10:09 <JVassie> cool 16:10:34 <Chris_Booth> it like openttd doesn't know about voltage, and doesn't need to 16:10:41 <Chris_Booth> or current type 16:10:50 <Chris_Booth> these are things that just make the game silly 16:10:52 <JVassie> well 16:10:58 <JVassie> you dont have to use CETS :p 16:11:00 <JVassie> remember that 16:11:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: you can just use no track set 16:11:21 <JVassie> we couldve gone down the rotue of specifying 25k AC and 1500V DC seperate track 16:11:22 <planetmaker> JVassie, it's nothing to do with CETS ;-) 16:11:24 <Chris_Booth> Eddi|zuHause: most the time I do 16:11:32 <Eddi|zuHause> all trains will default to RAIL/ELRL if you don't use a track set 16:11:36 <planetmaker> it'd be all separate 16:11:37 <JVassie> planetmaker: DBRails then 16:11:47 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 16:11:58 <planetmaker> CERTS ;-) central european rail track set :-P 16:12:03 <JVassie> haha 16:12:39 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: the TOE set tries to model 15kV/25kV/3kV/1.5kV difference 16:13:08 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe we should record that stuff in the table, can decide to use that later ;) 16:13:12 <JVassie> mmm 16:13:16 <JVassie> could be interesting :p 16:13:43 <Chris_Booth> TOE is the one that is similar to 2cc but with voltage limits 16:13:46 <Eddi|zuHause> although the most prominent user of 25kV, France, is not represented in the set 16:13:58 <JVassie> germany is all 25kV, no? 16:14:04 <Eddi|zuHause> no, 15kV 16:14:07 <JVassie> oh derr :p 16:14:10 <JVassie> denmark is 25kV 16:14:13 <Eddi|zuHause> except one line 16:14:19 <Chris_Booth> 25kV is mainly France and UK 16:14:29 <JVassie> SBB is 15kV 16:14:45 <JVassie> OBB is 15kV too 16:14:55 <Chris_Booth> not sure what italy is 16:14:58 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, switzerland, austria and germany very early decided to go with a common voltage 16:14:59 <Chris_Booth> or spain 16:15:08 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: lower? I think they are quite low already, seeing that even a 45° curve is only limited to 88. 16:15:23 <JVassie> PKP is 3kV 16:15:35 <JVassie> CD is a mix of 3kV and 25kV 16:15:45 <Eddi|zuHause> PKP and CSD decided to drop 15kV after WWII 16:15:52 <JVassie> so is Italy 16:16:01 <JVassie> so is spain 16:16:04 *** Hyronymus [~chatzilla@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 16:16:13 <Chris_Booth> what 25k? 16:16:18 <JVassie> and 3kV 16:16:25 <JVassie> hi Hyronymus 16:16:28 <Hyronymus> evening 16:16:36 <planetmaker> hi Hyronymus 16:16:37 <Chris_Booth> I would guess the 25k is highspeed 16:16:44 <Chris_Booth> and 3kv is old rails 16:16:50 <JVassie> possibly 16:17:09 <JVassie> mind you, all of Finland's OHLE is 25kV 16:17:44 <Eddi|zuHause> but this all is fairly irrelevant unless you really want to model cross-border stuff 16:17:53 <Hyronymus> more countries made the choice for 25kV 16:18:11 <JVassie> would make for a very interestign set Eddi 16:18:14 <Chris_Booth> even then you have dualvoltage trains like the ICE3 and TGV POS 16:18:22 <JVassie> gives much more scope for a lot of newer locos 16:18:22 <Hyronymus> or diesels :P 16:18:27 <JVassie> which are dual/triple/quad voltage 16:19:00 <JVassie> also France's OHLE is about 2/5 1500V and 3/5 25kV 16:20:39 <JVassie> Eddi|zuHause: is there any way of providing for different voltages except for seperate railtypes? 16:20:47 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: no 16:20:51 <JVassie> :( 16:21:03 <Terkhen> hi Hyronymus 16:21:04 <JVassie> tbh I cant even think how you could 16:21:15 <Hyronymus> hi Terkhen 16:22:16 <Hyronymus> JVassie: I think you need multiple electrified track types then 16:22:30 <JVassie> yeah 16:22:48 <JVassie> just trying to think how you could provide that capability without usign track types 16:22:54 <JVassie> but i dont think you can 16:22:55 <planetmaker> hm... 16:23:20 * planetmaker wonders... does a track type disappear from the availability list when there's no vehicle available for it anymore and non present either? 16:23:31 <Eddi|zuHause> nmlc: "src/eng_dummy.pnml", line 7: Unrecognized identifier 'CLIMATES_ALL' encountered <-- what am i doing wrong? 16:23:35 * planetmaker guesses not 16:23:36 <JVassie> didnt we have this discussion planetmaker ? 16:23:38 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: no 16:24:06 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, yes 16:24:13 <planetmaker> it must read... 16:24:32 <planetmaker> + climates_available: avail_prussia_core ? ALL_CLIMATES : NO_CLIMATE; 16:24:37 <Terkhen> IIRC it is ALL_CLIMATES now 16:24:41 <Eddi|zuHause> oh. 16:24:47 <Eddi|zuHause> that explains things :p 16:25:23 <Terkhen> this reminds me that I did not upload the nml syntax highlighter 16:26:21 *** APTX_ [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:26:54 * Terkhen makes a note hoping that he will not forget about it again 16:27:14 *** APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #openttd 16:30:41 *** ar3k [~ident@ecn206.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 16:34:17 *** k^^ [~k^^@users192.kollegienet.dk] has joined #openttd 16:36:16 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:36:47 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-067-089-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 16:38:02 *** ar3kaw [~ident@eca18.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:45:49 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i'm still not getting the engine 16:47:26 * planetmaker investigates 16:48:54 *** Hyronymus is now known as Hyr|away 16:49:28 <Eddi|zuHause> and shouldn't you give the power in kW when that's what is recorded in the table? 16:50:01 *** TheMask96 [martijn@greed.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:51:11 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, and you also miss VEH_CBF_WAGON_LENGTH 16:51:23 <JVassie> wtf happened to the spreadsheet? 16:51:33 <JVassie> nvm 16:52:27 <MNIM> hmmmmh 16:53:01 <MNIM> I decided to revert back to my original junction 16:54:00 <JVassie> lol 16:56:22 *** TheMask96 [martijn@lust.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 16:57:11 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 17:02:36 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, it might be related to some properties not being available to articulated parts... I'll check out, if I don't define them 17:02:56 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that shouldn't be relevant 17:05:06 <planetmaker> well. OpenTTD registers the engine upon load... but doesn't make it available for *some* reason 17:05:29 <planetmaker> and most likely it's a stupid mistake or lapse 17:07:08 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 17:11:49 <Belugas> free as a bird 17:12:00 <Belugas> oops... 17:13:06 <planetmaker> good for you ;-) 17:14:16 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:14:28 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, it's the refittable_cargo_classes 17:14:37 <andythenorth> hellos 17:14:43 <planetmaker> set that to CARGO_CLASSES_ALL and you're set 17:15:10 <planetmaker> uhm. ALL_NORMAL_CARGO_CLASSES 17:15:50 <planetmaker> that's a stupid, but anything but obvious mistake 17:16:03 <Eddi|zuHause> can you give me the actual code? 17:17:41 <Terkhen> hi andythenorth 17:17:42 <planetmaker> updated diff 17:18:07 <planetmaker> the difference is in cargo_definitions:28 17:19:10 <Ammler> is the repo broken? 17:19:35 <planetmaker> which? and why? 17:22:09 <Ammler> never mind... :-) 17:22:11 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:22:36 <Ammler> just thought you work on cets with diffs :-P 17:23:11 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that part is not touched by the diff 17:25:14 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ff7c0.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 17:25:51 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 17:26:05 <planetmaker> uhm... it should? 17:27:03 <planetmaker> are you sure you got not some cached version or so? 17:27:17 <Eddi|zuHause> a diff between this diff and the last one shows only differences in callback_flags, model_life and climate availability 17:28:13 <Eddi|zuHause> you should probably just commit this stuff 17:30:03 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:30:41 <planetmaker> probably you're right. done 17:35:21 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 17:35:35 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-233-119.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 17:36:18 <Eddi|zuHause> aye, now it shows up 17:36:40 <planetmaker> btw, you of course also have commit access via your DevZone credentials 17:38:34 <Eddi|zuHause> now... what are my devzone credentials :p 17:38:54 <Eddi|zuHause> hm...there's a wrong offset somewhere 17:38:56 <planetmaker> you have an account there, don't you? 17:39:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i do 17:39:12 <planetmaker> at least it has your e-mail address :-P 17:41:55 <Eddi|zuHause> **.orig <-- is that intended? (in .hgignore) 17:42:27 <planetmaker> yes. Ignore often-occuring backup and whatever files 17:42:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i meant the ** 17:42:47 <planetmaker> might be better placed in the user .hgignore. Oh, yes. That traverses the path then IIRC 17:42:52 <planetmaker> long ago I looked at it. 17:43:05 <planetmaker> c&p for months, if not years :-P 17:44:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22605 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt simplified_chinese.txt): 17:44:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:44:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 3 changes by Gavin 17:44:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: czech - 3 changes by marek995 17:46:08 *** Lakie [~Lakie@82.152.164.38] has quit [Quit: bbl] 17:46:10 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 17:48:00 <planetmaker> "Objects have around 8 random bits per tile of the object. " <-- frosch123 that means 8 +- 2? ;-) 17:49:01 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-067-089-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:52:07 <planetmaker> (and no, you didn't edit that page, it's just a random marvel I found) 17:52:25 <frosch123> looks like there are 8 bits per tile 17:52:27 <frosch123> no shared bits 17:52:34 <planetmaker> yep 17:52:38 <frosch123> planetmaker: iirc the spec changed several times there 17:52:57 <Eddi|zuHause> yay... kate krashed. :p 17:53:18 <frosch123> switch to geany 17:53:31 <planetmaker> mainly I found it amusing to find a phrasing like "there are roughly xy bits used for..." 17:53:51 *** Hyr|away is now known as Hyronymus 17:54:45 <frosch123> planetmaker: maybe random bits means, that their presence is random :p 17:54:53 <planetmaker> :-D 17:55:12 <planetmaker> that'd pose an interesting challenge 17:55:26 <planetmaker> "catch me. I'm the random bit" ;-) 17:55:28 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: so, how do i tell hg that i am authorized? 17:55:35 *** keky___ [~stefan@p5098b65a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 17:55:40 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-233-119.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:55:53 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, you need to add a separate line to your .hgrc: 17:56:05 <planetmaker> default-push = https://push.openttdcoop.org/cets 17:56:31 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-067-089-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 17:56:50 <planetmaker> mind the https 17:56:56 <Eddi|zuHause> that seemed to have helped 17:58:31 <planetmaker> are you sure you want to have 'johannes' configured as your user name? ;-) 17:59:05 <Eddi|zuHause> probably not 17:59:12 <planetmaker> you could edit ~/.hgrc 17:59:24 <planetmaker> better for that stuff than configuring it for every repo 18:00:00 <planetmaker> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/home/wiki/Configuring_TortoiseHg_%28Windows%29 18:00:30 <Eddi|zuHause> what do you suggest i should use for this repo? 18:00:51 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 18:00:53 <planetmaker> most people seem to use their IRC and forum nick 18:01:03 <planetmaker> I'd suggest Eddi in this case ;-) 18:01:58 <planetmaker> username = Eddi <email> 18:02:12 <planetmaker> but up to you 18:02:20 <planetmaker> I don't really mind. Just wondered 18:02:29 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:03:35 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has quit [Quit: Quit] 18:03:40 *** Fuco [dota.keys@server.dasnet.cz] has joined #openttd 18:03:44 <planetmaker> you might find it interesting maybe to join #openttdcoop.devzone 18:04:22 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the preferred way to set 32px-vehicles and depot offset nowadays? 18:04:37 <planetmaker> there are global variables defined in NML 18:04:52 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but what's their name? 18:04:53 <planetmaker> which are write-able 18:05:37 <planetmaker> train_width_32_px = 1; 18:05:48 <planetmaker> traininfo_y_offset = 2; 18:05:55 <planetmaker> but I did have to look up that stuff, too ;-) 18:06:36 <planetmaker> I'd add them to header.pnml probably... 18:06:56 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:06:57 <planetmaker> but maybe we want a separate file for global definitions and things like these 18:07:07 <SpComb> train_width_32_px = 33; 18:08:04 <Eddi|zuHause> it works with my old lines, but nml complains 18:08:29 <Eddi|zuHause> and they really are necessary, otherwise it looks odd 18:09:13 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 18:09:17 *** Pixa [~Pixa@85.210.75.24] has joined #openttd 18:09:50 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [] 18:12:23 <Eddi|zuHause> ah... hg is stupid... for hg outgoing it uses the push address 18:12:31 <Eddi|zuHause> so it asks for login there, too 18:14:33 <Eddi|zuHause> it produces 3 steam puffs... 18:15:43 <Yexo> why is that stupid? 18:16:00 <Yexo> hg outgoing should tell you which revisions would be pushed if you did hg push 18:16:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: yes, but it could find that out from the public adress as well 18:16:53 <Yexo> it couldn't, since it doesn't know that the pull and push address contain the same repo 18:20:22 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host33-162-dynamic.56-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 18:21:29 <Wolf01> evening 18:22:07 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: exactly. it could, if it wasn't stupid :p 18:22:35 <Yexo> eddi: but between every pull/push the remote repo could change 18:22:46 <Yexo> so there is absolutely no way it can be sure those two are the same 18:23:30 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 18:24:03 <Terkhen> hi Wolf01 18:24:30 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, then put your credentials in your ~/.hgrc as described in the link I supplied... 18:25:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not putting credentials in a plain text file... 18:27:22 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has joined #openttd 18:28:17 <Terkhen> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/mercurial_keyring 18:33:36 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 18:33:39 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 18:33:46 <planetmaker> Zuu seems to be the person with the most AI shortnames - and the amount of AIs used in the most peculiar way ;-) 18:34:31 <Zuu> :-) 18:34:47 <Zuu> The more AIs the better? :-p 18:38:10 <Alberth> either that, or 'crazier' (in a good way) :p 18:39:05 <Ammler> [20:26] <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not putting credentials in a plain text file... <-- if you want, we can give you ssh access or are you aware of anohter auth method? 18:41:00 <Hyronymus> expanded the NML stub on the wiki: http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial 18:41:26 <Ammler> I guess, there is with ssl certs, not sure thought 18:42:30 <Alberth> sign the text with a ssh key 18:44:07 <Ammler> Alberth: answering me? 18:44:40 <Alberth> just giving another suggestion 18:45:31 <Ammler> well, suggestions without the need to patch mercurial or webserver :-) 18:59:05 <Alberth> are you saying my suggestion needs any of that? I am confused 19:00:56 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:01:47 *** ar3kaw [~ident@ecn206.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 19:01:48 *** mksen [~mks@c83-176-234-98.cust.tele2.se] has joined #openttd 19:02:00 *** Amis_ [~Amis@5400EA0B.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #openttd 19:02:00 *** NOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-187-3.w109-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 19:02:01 *** Firzen [~Neon@dslb-094-219-008-213.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 19:03:33 *** George|2 [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 19:04:36 *** luQue [~lkz@luckz.de] has joined #openttd 19:04:40 *** frosch [~frosch@frnk-590ff7c0.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 19:05:21 *** TB [~patric@145.118.73.65] has joined #openttd 19:05:28 <Zuu> planetmaker: I think a #openttdcoop project/hg account for TutorialAI would be useful. Especially as I think this is a project that might interest others to contribute chapters. 19:05:37 *** tneo- [~tneo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 19:05:59 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:06:16 *** Fuco_ [dota.keys@server.dasnet.cz] has joined #openttd 19:06:28 *** pm [~planetmak@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 19:06:31 *** mode/#openttd [+o pm] by ChanServ 19:06:46 *** zachanim1 [~zach@2506ds3-od.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd 19:07:14 *** SpComb^_ [terom@zapotek.paivola.fi] has joined #openttd 19:07:33 *** Osai^2 [~Osai@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 19:09:07 *** XeryusTC2 [~XeryusTC@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 19:09:37 *** DJ_Nekkid [~djnekkid@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 19:09:42 <Zuu> planetmaker: For every more AI that I make, the more useful SuperLib become :-p 19:10:07 <pm> haha :-) 19:10:09 <Eddi|zuHause> "TutorialAI" -- i'm just imagining "Mr Paperclip" saying: "looks like you are trying to build a train station, can i help you with that?" 19:10:12 <Alberth> :) 19:10:17 *** Netsplit reticulum.oftc.net <-> magnet.oftc.net quits: @planetmaker, Fuco, XeryusTC, Neon, tneo, Progman, ar3k, Mks, +michi_cc, zachanima, (+9 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 19:10:17 *** DJ_Nekkid is now known as DJNekkid 19:10:17 <pm> hm... I'm here even twice 19:10:20 *** pm is now known as planetmaker 19:10:32 <planetmaker> not anymore 19:11:10 <Alberth> so glad you are back in one piece again :p 19:11:16 <planetmaker> :-D 19:14:59 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 19:17:44 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B9C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 19:19:01 *** michi_cc [michi@dude.icosahedron.de] has joined #openttd 19:19:04 *** mode/#openttd [+v michi_cc] by ChanServ 19:21:09 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:22:36 *** michi_cc [michi@dude.icosahedron.de] has left #openttd [] 19:22:36 *** michi_cc [michi@dude.icosahedron.de] has joined #openttd 19:22:39 *** mode/#openttd [+v michi_cc] by ChanServ 19:24:50 *** Twerkhoven[L] [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:25:56 *** DabuYu [~jkuckartz@128.250.79.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:27:19 <planetmaker> Zuu, iirc ctrl+click also deletes a sign. Might be faster ;-) 19:27:33 <Zuu> planetmaker: Only when you are the owner of the sign. 19:27:44 <planetmaker> then do it twice ;-) 19:27:56 <planetmaker> but... maybe doesn't work. Dunno :-) 19:27:59 <Zuu> Ctrl+double click? 19:28:06 <Zuu> Is that implemented for non-owned signs? 19:28:47 <planetmaker> dunno. I just thought that first click changes ownership, 2nd deletes 19:28:52 <planetmaker> I might mis-remember 19:28:55 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 19:29:00 <Wolf01> gah... trying to extend Point to get Right... I must be tired 19:29:53 <Zuu> Anyway, if the tutorial gets popular it might give a push towards some way of making an easier to use interface ;-) 19:30:01 <planetmaker> Zuu, I guess a NoAI chat function would be nice, eh? 19:30:35 <planetmaker> like 'emit_general_chat_message(string)' 19:30:36 <Zuu> Anyway, it abuses a half closed door. 19:31:17 <Zuu> The idea has never been that competitive AIs should be allowed to interact with players through chat etc. At least that's what Yexo + TrueBrain has told me. 19:31:42 <Zuu> For example AIs can't read signs owned by other companies. 19:31:52 <planetmaker> hm, I see 19:33:09 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 19:33:13 <Zuu> An AI that can easily be controlled secretly by one player could be abused in eg. multiplayer. 19:34:05 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:34:09 <Eddi|zuHause> how is that different from two people working together? 19:34:09 <planetmaker> ah, right. makes sense 19:34:33 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, one person with his bots joining as well 19:34:43 <planetmaker> easier than getting a team join a server 19:34:45 <Zuu> In theory there could be some API functions only available to some class of AIs that may get other restrictions imposed by OpenTTD. 19:35:09 <planetmaker> but then luckily AIs are server-side ;-) 19:36:00 <Zuu> That doesn't stop me from adding a backdoor in CluelessPuls and use that on a server that have my AI running. 19:36:48 <Zuu> Anyway, I think AIs can read the company names of other companies so that backdoor could possible be added already so it is triggered by my usual multiplayer company name etc. 19:37:04 <Terkhen> good night 19:37:23 <planetmaker> he, early night. Good night to you Terkhen 19:37:35 <Zuu> Good night Terkhen 19:39:13 <Zuu> That said, maybe there could be a GUI/AI-chat only available in single player that would be somewhat MP-safe. (ignoring the 3-line change that according to TrueBrain is enough to get AIs to run on MP-clients) 19:39:17 <Wolf01> night Terkhen 19:41:31 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw3-ffa0c300-106.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:44:02 *** TinoDidriksen [~TinoDidri@alpha.visl.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:44:17 *** TinoDidriksen [~TinoDidri@alpha.visl.sdu.dk] has joined #openttd 19:44:53 *** Noldo_ [vheino@jumi.lut.fi] has joined #openttd 19:46:20 *** Chris_Booth_ [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:46:59 *** Noldo [~vheino@jumi.lut.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:47:23 <Zuu> Maybe the (G)UI-features could be made so that they use DoCommand(P) but are restricted to SP only. So that in an unmobified OpenTTD AIs will not be able to use those APIs in MP. On a modified build which allows AIs on clients the AI-GUI calls will still be routed via the server which will block the commands. Thus requiring a larger modifcation that re-routes the events as client-only to abuse it. 19:49:12 <Zuu> That said, if there are AIs that would actually be usefull for the script kiddies to use in MP, they would probably only then try to use AIs in MP. Hm...... 19:50:43 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 19:51:02 <Zuu> But then there already exist so many ways to be evil in MP that it might be a bad idea to let this potential issue stop the development. 19:51:06 *** SpComb^_ is now known as SpComb 19:51:56 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:52:02 *** Chris_Booth_ is now known as Chris_Booth 19:53:07 <Zuu> All that said, for now I don't think I will for now look into extending the AI API but rather try to experiment with what is availale. But if someone takes the challenge and adds some AI-(G)UI that would be welcome so to say :-D 19:54:15 <Yexo> <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, one person with his bots joining as well <- that isn't an argument, since AIs are server-side only 19:55:27 <Yexo> Zuu: you want an AI to be able to control the GUI? 19:56:25 *** amkoroew [~matze@p5B102A6B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 19:56:49 <Hyronymus> mr. JVassie 19:56:51 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d086bd1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 20:03:01 <Zuu> Yexo: I'm not sure which parts that would be most useful yet. 20:04:12 <Hyronymus> who is experienced in using mediawiki 20:04:29 <Zuu> Center user view at some location and some way of displaying left-aligned multi-line text + getting user feedback would be useful. That's what I can think of for now. 20:06:12 <Alberth> the latter by means of a new window? 20:06:17 <Yexo> Hyronymus: better ask your real question 20:06:27 <Yexo> I wouldn't call myself experienced, but I might be able to answer simple questions 20:06:39 <Zuu> But I don't know if it is "the right thing" to write tutorials as AIs. It might be better to have "Tutorials" that happen to share most of the AI API + having some extra APIs + lot of money/no mone restriction. 20:06:42 <Hyronymus> the feature in green on this page: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Redirect_table 20:06:58 <Hyronymus> is that something you can do on every page 20:07:04 <Zuu> Alberth: That's one solution. 20:07:28 <Zuu> I haven't though very much yet. I wrote TutorialAI last night :-D 20:07:41 <Yexo> Hyronymus: that's done by this: {{Database layout}}, in other words by including the Database layout template 20:08:05 <Hyronymus> ok, I'll look further into that Yexo 20:08:15 <Alberth> Zuu: programming a tutorial through an AI beats doing it in C++, imho 20:08:17 <Yexo> you can view/edit that template here: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Template:Database_layout 20:08:37 <Hyronymus> thx 20:09:29 <Zuu> Alberth: Indeed, and I plan to reuse quite a lot of AI code and more or less just put in break points in it to start with. 20:12:13 *** Amis_ [~Amis@5400EA0B.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Quit: *pop*] 20:12:36 <Zuu> If you want a static tutorial, you could bundle it with a savegame/scenario. Though I don't plan to do that for now unless there will be a need for it. 20:14:27 <Zuu> The main downside I think with a tutoraial AS an AI is that it can't show newbies how to use the GUI. it can only talk about the GUI. That said, if you want to be specific about the GUI you become more dependent on specific OpenTTD versions. 20:14:55 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:16:35 <Alberth> automagic mouse moving and clicking should be possible, at least in theory. 20:16:55 <Alberth> but then you're building for the user, not for the AI :p 20:18:09 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-24-194-12.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 20:20:05 *** k^^ [~k^^@users192.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 20:21:03 <Zuu> Thus a "Tutorial".tar would be useful which is an AI that start on the same company as the user. (or where the user is auto-cheated to the AI company) 20:21:40 <Zuu> ... unless the AI can open the cheat dialog and move the user to the AI company... :-p 20:22:15 <planetmaker> Zuu, add a special AI tag... or introduce similar to grfIDs a special meaning for names starting with 0xFF 20:22:24 <MNIM> hmmmmh 20:22:28 <planetmaker> though I like a special property an AI declares better 20:22:42 <planetmaker> or however that'd be named in the NoAI domain ;-) 20:22:57 <MNIM> every time I browse the wiki I am surprised how many junctions are possible 20:23:27 <Zuu> I think it would be a function that you can ovverride in info.nut eg. IsTutorial() and make it return true. 20:23:49 <Zuu> The default implementation would simply return false. 20:24:09 <planetmaker> http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/PublicServer:Archive <-- browse those games, MNIM ;-) 20:24:30 <MNIM> Im kinda interested by this one right now 20:26:15 <MNIM> http://wiki.openttd.org/images/4/43/Flyover.png 20:26:23 <MNIM> whoopsie, forgot to post link :P 20:26:27 *** Juo [~Juo@cpc11-acto2-2-0-cust244.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 20:26:44 <MNIM> anyway, Im not that interested in those mega-big stations and stuff 20:26:58 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Quit: The Third Tiberium War - http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-third-tiberium-war] 20:27:14 <Zuu> Another crazy zuu-idea: Use the idea of some AI author to read human constructions and save to file (via debug-console). Then write an AI where this data is pasted into the source and the AI will randomly build different advanced junctions. The purpose would be just for fun and nice to look at :-) 20:27:21 <MNIM> I try to keep it at least a bit managable 20:27:38 <MNIM> even if my cpu decides he's working too hard :P 20:27:45 <MNIM> as is happening with one of my oldest games 20:28:09 <MNIM> I swear, I go near a city with my viewport, BOOM slomo! 20:29:02 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... cool nmlc reports the error in the pnml file, not the nml file 20:30:34 <planetmaker> sure :-) 20:30:48 <planetmaker> I'd be wasted otherwise ;-) 20:31:17 <MNIM> I also have a full overview screenshot of that game, but I can't view it because I don't have enough ram 20:42:30 <MNIM> hmmmmh 20:42:39 <MNIM> I like the zoom fucntion, I think 20:43:20 <MNIM> even if it still causes image sizes in excess of 3(e3)^2 pixies 20:44:30 <MNIM> here's the zoomed out version 20:44:31 <MNIM> http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/1/1/2248324/Screens/New%20World%20Transports%2C%2014th%20Jul%202095.png 20:44:45 <MNIM> most complicated system so far 20:45:57 *** DGMurdockIII [~dgmurdock@c-68-58-129-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 20:46:17 <MNIM> and for some odd reason, which seems to be the case in every game so far, it's not the main hub city which grows the most 20:46:18 <MNIM> heck 20:46:19 <DGMurdockIII> you guys seem like you would know 20:46:41 <DGMurdockIII> do you know if there are any good open source city building games? 20:47:07 <MNIM> I founded several offshoot cities from new world, and both are several times their daddy in population! 20:47:26 <MNIM> murdock: you mean as in sim city-likes? 20:47:37 <MNIM> heh 20:47:39 <DGMurdockIII> sim city 20:47:42 <DGMurdockIII> yeah 20:47:45 <MNIM> silly iron ore mine. 20:48:31 <MNIM> what are you doing in the middle of a giant metropolis measuring several tens of thousands of citizens while squashed between a mainline and its bypass? 20:48:44 * planetmaker would bet on lincity 20:49:00 <Alberth> micropolis == simcity 20:49:37 <MNIM> hmmmh 20:49:56 <MNIM> to be honest, I haven't seen any convincing sim city replacement so far 20:50:17 *** Twerkhoven[L] [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 20:50:25 <Alberth> how is the original first version not convincing? :p 20:50:54 <MNIM> hmmmmh 20:50:59 <DGMurdockIII> micropolis i would love to find a windows verson 20:51:10 <MNIM> silly freight train. why are you only going 180 kmh? 20:51:16 <DGMurdockIII> or someone build a game based on the source code 20:51:36 <Alberth> MNIM: because you gave it a too fast engine? :) 20:51:39 <DGMurdockIII> the only one i have seen is open city 20:52:07 <DGMurdockIII> if they keep working on it could have been very good 20:52:10 *** Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:52:57 *** tneo- is now known as tneo 20:52:57 *** Hyronymus [~chatzilla@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54:34 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 20:54:50 <DGMurdockIII> http://lincity-ng.berlios.de/wiki/index.php/Main_Page 20:55:09 <MNIM> alberth: the year is 2095 in this game and all non-multiple-unit trains running on electrified rails are powered by sncf CC40100 and taurus locs going 241-230 respectively 20:55:21 *** Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has joined #openttd 20:56:13 <Alberth> weird people living in such a hurry 20:56:32 <andythenorth> how to connect svn to rss / irc? 20:56:44 <andythenorth> does the bot here read the rss from Trac? 20:56:51 <andythenorth> or some other commit hook or such? 20:57:01 <MNIM> there's also the NTV AGV duplex trains which slam along the lines with 362 even 20:57:53 <Alberth> andythenorth: most likely a post-commit hook 20:59:19 <Alberth> andythenorth: I would expect such a thing to be somewhat standard available with svn 20:59:28 <MNIM> then there's also the 28 tile long mammoth trains thundering along powered by two centennials (UP EMD DDA40X) 20:59:43 <MNIM> the slowest trains I use, actually 20:59:57 <MNIM> only a lazy 144 kmh! 21:00:17 <Zuu> I've heard about a very very good game called P1 that will have every city building and transport game feature ever though of. ;-) 21:01:39 *** devilsadvocate [~quassel@109.200.19.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:01:55 <planetmaker> with status updates every few weeks, but time intervals following a fibonacci series ;-) 21:02:25 <Eddi|zuHause> that's quite exponential ;) 21:03:19 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc (1+sqrt(5))/2 21:03:19 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1.61803398875 21:04:17 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 1/sqrt(5)*(((1+sqrt(5))/2)**0+((1-sqrt(5)/2)**0) 21:04:17 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1) 21:04:19 <MNIM> http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/1/1/2248324/Screens/New%20World%20Transports%2C%2029th%20Feb%202096.png 21:04:19 <DGMurdockIII> where can i find the game P1 21:04:29 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 1/sqrt(5)*((1+sqrt(5))/2)**0+((1-sqrt(5)/2)**0) 21:04:29 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1.4472135955 21:04:56 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 1/sqrt(5)*((1+sqrt(5))/2)**0-((1-sqrt(5)/2)**0) 21:04:56 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: -0.5527864045 21:05:34 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 1/sqrt(5)*(((1+sqrt(5))/2)**0-((1-sqrt(5))/2)**0) 21:05:34 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0 21:05:38 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the one 21:05:45 <MNIM> how gentle and calm, a centennial pulling an empty mineral train passing a British rail diesel intercity in a mountain scenery. 21:05:47 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 1/sqrt(5)*(((1+sqrt(5))/2)**1-((1-sqrt(5))/2)**1) 21:05:48 <MNIM> ... 21:05:48 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1 21:05:52 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 1/sqrt(5)*(((1+sqrt(5))/2)**2-((1-sqrt(5))/2)**2) 21:05:52 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1 21:05:57 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 1/sqrt(5)*(((1+sqrt(5))/2)**3-((1-sqrt(5))/2)**3) 21:05:57 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 2 21:05:59 <DGMurdockIII> has anyone tryed Cities in Motion? 21:06:04 <MNIM> you broke the bot! D: 21:06:10 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 1/sqrt(5)*(((1+sqrt(5))/2)**4-((1-sqrt(5))/2)**4) 21:06:10 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 3 21:06:16 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 1/sqrt(5)*(((1+sqrt(5))/2)**5-((1-sqrt(5))/2)**5) 21:06:16 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 5 21:06:21 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 1/sqrt(5)*(((1+sqrt(5))/2)**6-((1-sqrt(5))/2)**6) 21:06:21 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 8 21:07:54 <DGMurdockIII> has anyone tryed Cities in Motion? 21:08:13 <MNIM> heh 21:08:17 <Eddi|zuHause> not since the last time you asked 21:08:18 <MNIM> steam power. 21:08:46 <MNIM> trying to pull a train with four locs. 21:10:00 *** Juo [~Juo@cpc11-acto2-2-0-cust244.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Juo] 21:10:42 <MNIM> 0-o 21:10:46 <MNIM> ottd crashed 21:10:47 <MNIM> de hell 21:13:02 <Zuu> MNIM, unless you have modified your NewGRF settings in-game, please provide crash.dmp, crash.log, crash.png etc. to bugs.openttd.org 21:13:22 <Zuu> oh, forgot crash.sav would also be useful. 21:13:54 <Eddi|zuHause> http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Trarnton%20Transport,%2025.%20Jul%201983.png 21:13:54 <Zuu> If you are on Windows Vista/7 they are most likely found in C:\Users\<user name>\Documents\OpenTTD\ 21:14:00 <MNIM> yeah, newgrf devtools are enabled, so Im not gonna while 21:14:02 <MNIM> *whine 21:14:52 <planetmaker> he @ Eddi|zuHause 21:15:03 <MNIM> though it's still a bit exceptional, Ive been running the same newgrf for a while already, and it suddenly cops out when Im expanding towns in scnedit 21:15:18 <planetmaker> looks a bit weired 21:16:01 <MNIM> eddi: busy coding? 21:16:05 <Eddi|zuHause> the steam puff is too far in front 21:16:19 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, you can change that via the CB for visual effects 21:16:41 <planetmaker> and aligning steam is... tedious 21:16:53 <Eddi|zuHause> and the wagons in the steam era aren't that long 21:17:04 <planetmaker> :-) 21:17:41 <planetmaker> I guess we'll have to employ two schemes: we can use the normal way for wagons shorter equal than 8/8 21:17:53 <MNIM> hmmmmh 21:17:55 <planetmaker> and only resort to the elaborate scheme for the longer vehicles 21:18:23 <MNIM> is there a way to enable multiple docks/airports in the same station? 21:18:31 <planetmaker> yes. Write a patch 21:18:48 <MNIM> ah. the predictable, I suppose 21:19:01 <MNIM> but it's not a simple line in a .cfg somewhere, then 21:19:07 <planetmaker> nope 21:19:29 <MNIM> huh 21:19:33 <MNIM> it happened again 21:19:52 <MNIM> duplicated circumstances exactly, duplicated results too 21:20:30 *** Juo [~Juo@cpc11-acto2-2-0-cust244.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 21:21:08 *** TB is now known as TrueBrain 21:22:13 <MNIM> heh 21:24:05 <MNIM> Zuu: still want those crash results? 21:24:06 <MNIM> http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/1/1/2248324/crash.png 21:24:06 <MNIM> http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/1/1/2248324/crash.log 21:24:06 <MNIM> http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/1/1/2248324/crash.sav 21:24:26 <Wolf01> 'night 21:24:36 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host33-162-dynamic.56-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 21:24:47 <MNIM> short explanation: opened .sav in scedit to edit town sizes and some rivers +scenery and such 21:25:15 <MNIM> when I tried to expand New Handwell, BOOM 21:25:45 <Alberth> lots of newgrf changes in the game 21:26:20 <MNIM> yeah, never caused me big trouble before though 21:27:02 <MNIM> biggest issue with newgrfs so far was when the nutracks that was recommended with 2CC trainset wasn't actually compatible 21:27:32 <planetmaker> yeah... 'never' 21:27:44 <MNIM> which was quickly solved by updating one of those newgrfs. 21:28:16 <MNIM> suppose there's always a first, eh? 21:29:10 <planetmaker> with those changes you did, I'm not really surprised 21:29:16 *** Juo [~Juo@cpc11-acto2-2-0-cust244.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Juo] 21:29:20 <planetmaker> I told you before that it's a path to disaster 21:29:30 <planetmaker> thus it took you less than 24 hours 21:29:42 <MNIM> less than twenty-four hours? 21:29:47 <planetmaker> and now you know why this setting usually should *not* be enabled 21:30:11 <MNIM> dude, most of those newgrfs have been running for months already in other games 21:30:26 <planetmaker> yes. But you didn't change or re-configure them on the fly 21:30:30 <planetmaker> which is the whole point 21:30:47 <MNIM> oh I did. 21:33:08 *** devilsadvocate [~quassel@109.200.19.188] has joined #openttd 21:34:51 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-067-089-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:36:39 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 21:44:16 <planetmaker> echo 'good night' && mv pm /dev/bed 21:45:24 <MNIM> I assume that's your way of saying "sudo apt-get sleep" 21:45:45 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:46:24 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:49:15 <MNIM> hmmhhh, still the same result 21:49:24 <MNIM> and oddly, only with that specific town 21:50:02 * frosch << SIGSTOP 21:50:07 *** frosch [~frosch@frnk-590ff7c0.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50:09 <Zuu> MNIM: I won't deal with them, but they can be useful to track down bugs. 21:50:29 <MNIM> ah, yeah. 21:51:04 <MNIM> hmmmhm, the trouble with my (ab)use patterns is finding where exactly the issue lies 21:54:30 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 21:56:19 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:03:21 <MNIM> 480 seconds even 0-o 22:04:27 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 22:04:42 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d086bd1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] 22:11:59 *** Firzen [~Neon@dslb-094-219-008-213.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 22:12:12 *** Chrill [~chrischri@h-5-149.A212.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 22:13:04 *** Pixa [~Pixa@85.210.75.24] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:17:27 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0f84fe.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 22:25:10 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-14-116.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 22:30:49 *** NOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-187-3.w109-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:31:02 *** bodis [~bodis@cpc3-ando3-0-0-cust781.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:33:08 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [] 22:34:13 *** Chruker [~no@5634a56d.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [] 22:43:24 *** JVassie [~James@host-92-27-149-231.static.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:43:48 <MNIM> ...Oopsoe 22:43:55 <MNIM> *oopsie 22:44:21 * MNIM whistles 22:44:27 <MNIM> that's a lot of progress lost 22:44:47 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 23:08:52 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-233-119.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 23:21:47 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-233-119.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:31:05 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-24-194-12.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:39:30 *** sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:44:05 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC5255.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 23:47:41 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:48:50 *** amkoroew1 [~matze@p5B106D78.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 23:53:35 *** amkoroew1 [~matze@p5B106D78.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 23:54:56 *** amkoroew [~matze@p5B102A6B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:57:35 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]