Config
Log for #openttd on 23rd June 2011:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:01:17  <Eddi|zuHause> which one is the ET30?
00:01:43  <Eddi|zuHause> don't see anything by that name
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00:29:19  <JVassie> Eddi|zuHause: intro 1956
00:29:44  <JVassie> BR420
00:29:47  <JVassie> *430
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00:30:11  <Eddi|zuHause> ah... DB stuff...
00:30:17  <JVassie> 1927 in my current game and 66 trains :D
00:30:23  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i'm not looking at that currently
00:30:41  <JVassie> oh which 14 are freight
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00:34:18  <JVassie> nn guys
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06:00:29  <Terkhen> good morning
06:03:50  <planetmaker> moin
06:04:05  <Terkhen> hi planetmaker
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07:33:03  <JVassie> morning all
07:34:24  <Terkhen> hi JVassie
07:34:32  <JVassie> :)
07:45:16  <planetmaker> moin JVassie
07:46:18  <JVassie> hows it going?
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08:24:08  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22606 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r22518): 20 is not the successor of 19 in NewGRF context.
08:25:10  <Noldo_> 1A is?
08:25:48  <planetmaker> ^
08:26:37  <JVassie> lawl
08:27:06  <frosch123> :)
08:27:30  <peter1138> heh
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08:34:06  <andythenorth> morn
08:34:34  <JVassie> moan
08:35:56  <andythenorth> hmm
08:36:00  <andythenorth> FIRS grain mill sucks
08:36:06  <andythenorth> needs redrawing
08:39:59  <JVassie> hmm Eddi|zuHause; what was your plan for the DB stuff in terms of the timeline? Will it not be in the core set at all or?
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08:42:47  <JVassie> i guess there will be a West Germany/DRG/DB/DBAG timeline or?
08:43:35  <planetmaker> JVassie, a user will have the choice for each epoch
08:43:54  <JVassie> aye i knew that
08:43:55  <planetmaker> in epoch 3/4 there'll be the choice betwen DR and DB or both
08:44:00  <JVassie> hmm
08:44:05  <JVassie> aye
08:44:17  <JVassie> just wondering how Eddi was planning on representing that in the timeline :)
08:44:17  <planetmaker> (and others, like SBB, of course as option, too)
08:44:31  <planetmaker> I'd do that in a separate time line
08:44:39  <JVassie> :)
08:44:41  <planetmaker> copied from the existing DR one
08:45:08  <JVassie> do you think we need the 'timeline overview' sheet still?
08:46:28  <planetmaker> I tend to answer 'no'
08:47:22  <andythenorth> stupid grain mill sprites :|
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09:31:12  <Wolf01> hello
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09:38:00  <JVassie> planetmaker: your an ace at regex, would you know how to split out postcodes into two bits? egs AB1, AB13, W1, W1B would aplit into AB and 1, AB and 13, W and 1, W and 1B respectively
09:38:00  <JVassie> :p
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09:49:58  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: try s/\([A-Z]*\)\([0-9]*[A-Z]*\)/ /
09:51:01  <JVassie> hmm
09:51:55  <JVassie> php is actign weird
09:51:58  <JVassie> *acting
09:52:10  <Eddi|zuHause> (not really sure what your postcodes are supposed to mean, though)
09:52:22  <Eddi|zuHause> (or how they are structured)
09:52:44  <JVassie> a full postcode is something liek AB1 1AA
09:53:07  <JVassie> a postcode like that will in the majority of cases cover a street
09:53:19  <JVassie> for example every house on my road has the postcode HP15 7PD
09:53:55  <JVassie> to pinpoint a specific address you just need house number and postcode
09:54:15  <JVassie> the first two letter refer to the 'district' sorting office
09:54:21  <JVassie> in thise case HP is Hemel Hempstead
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09:54:33  <JVassie> 15 is one of the HP areas
09:54:48  <Yexo> if that's alwasy exactly the first two letters you shouldn't use a regex but substr
09:55:01  <JVassie> it might not be two letters
09:55:14  <JVassie> take for example W1 or W1B
09:55:23  <JVassie> which are in central london
09:55:59  <TWerkhoven> or G for glasgow
09:56:15  <TWerkhoven> numbers can be 1 or 2 digits too
09:56:27  <JVassie> in my very crude regex: [A-Z]{1 or 2} [0-9]{1 or 2} [A-Z] {0 or 1}
09:56:33  <TWerkhoven> G1 or G44 for instance
09:56:36  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: what my regexp above tries to do is find the first number, and insert a space
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09:56:48  <JVassie> so 1 or 2 letters, followed by 1 or 2 digits, and 0 or 1 further letter
09:57:17  <JVassie> my task essentially is i H vae a mysql table with postcodes in (just the front half)
09:57:22  <JVassie> i need to sort them
09:57:25  <JVassie> *i have
09:57:35  <JVassie> i cant just sort because it would end up like this:
09:57:41  <JVassie> A1, A10, A11, A2, A3 etc
09:57:51  <JVassie> when it should be A1, A2 ... A10, A11
09:58:16  <Eddi|zuHause> aye, a "natural" sort... you need a token-separation for that
09:58:49  <JVassie> token-seperation?
09:59:08  <Eddi|zuHause> a "tokenizer" is the very first step of a compiler
09:59:19  <Yexo> a token is a logical part of the string
09:59:35  <Yexo> in your case the first token would be the letters of the district
09:59:41  <Eddi|zuHause> it is usually regexp-based, but can have states
09:59:42  <Yexo> second token would be a number
10:00:04  <JVassie> right
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10:00:32  <Eddi|zuHause> try lex/yacc or flex/bison
10:05:43  <JVassie> ah got my regex working finally >.>
10:05:52  <JVassie> helps if i escape characters >.<
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10:08:14  <JVassie> now i need to work out how im gonna do the sort :/
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10:16:14  <Eddi|zuHause> you now have (token: LETTER, value 'AB') (token: NUMBER, value: 13), and then do a lexicographic sort
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10:28:49  <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: I see you've included several engines in the timeline that are only available for 2 or 3 years
10:28:55  <Yexo> from a gameplay pov that seems very short
10:29:12  <JVassie> those dates arent availability dates Yexo
10:29:20  <JVassie> actually
10:29:21  <JVassie> hmm
10:29:24  <JVassie> see what you mean
10:29:27  <Yexo> if not, then what are they?
10:29:41  <JVassie> :p
10:29:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: yes, gameplay should be a little tweaked, for new we just included the real buy dates
10:30:12  <Eddi|zuHause> *for now
10:30:18  <JVassie> Eddi, is it worth chalking up NML feat_trains for each of these as we go?
10:31:02  <Sacro> Whoops
10:31:07  <Sacro> that's not an index table
10:31:45  <Yexo> my suggestion is to make each engine available for a minimum of 8 years
10:32:01  <Yexo> it that means there would be too much overlap just leave out a few more
10:32:55  <planetmaker> That's about the conclusion I'd go for, too
10:33:22  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, something of that sort.
10:33:25  <planetmaker> if two of them are very similar the engine could get a(n optical) facelift without stat changes in its ingame lifetime
10:34:04  <JVassie> Yexo: http://www.php.net/manual/en/function.natsort.php
10:34:08  <JVassie> thank christ for that :p
10:34:56  <JVassie> needn't have bothered with the regex..
10:35:34  <Eddi|zuHause> on the commuter line, there is the "blue wonder" of the berlin S-Bahn, that is basically a failed prototype, but there would be a gap for like 20 years if not including it
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10:37:00  <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm thinking making the Hamburg S-Bahn DB-only, not DRG (even though that was introduced before DB), and instead taking the "Olympia" Berlin wagons
10:37:07  <JVassie> i guess a parameter with options Real or Game-Optimised for 'Vehicle Availability' wouldnt go amiss?
10:37:29  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: not particularly useful
10:37:33  <Yexo> indeed
10:37:42  <JVassie> why not Eddi?
10:38:04  <Yexo> we should only use game-optimised values, if a users wants to play with real dates let him enable "don't expire engines" and only buy them in the proper period
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10:38:46  <planetmaker> quite
10:39:39  <JVassie> I guess thats the easier option
10:40:24  <Yexo> I'd suggest to leave out the ET831 and make the EP202 available until 1924 or so
10:41:09  <Yexo> make the E16 available until the E18 comes out, leave out VT04 completely
10:41:10  <JVassie> just confirming when we say leave out, were referencing the 'core' set
10:41:16  <Yexo> yes
10:41:19  <JVassie> :)
10:41:21  <JVassie> just checkiN!
10:41:22  <Yexo> the timeline is for the core set, right?
10:41:25  <JVassie> indeed
10:41:28  <planetmaker> it is
10:41:42  <planetmaker> extended can supply all kind of... unnecessary vehicles :-P
10:41:47  <Yexo> mind that all my suggestions are done without any actual knowledge about the engines, just from looking at the stats and timeline
10:41:55  <JVassie> lol planetmaker
10:42:00  <JVassie> not exactly unnecessary
10:42:07  <Yexo> so I'd like some input on them before changing the timeline
10:42:31  <planetmaker> JVassie, I only look at gameplay and the related stats. I do my judgement also without knowledge about the history
10:42:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: ET831 is a railcar/EMU, EP202 is an electric engine
10:42:42  <JVassie> :)
10:42:47  <JVassie> dont worry i can appreciate that
10:42:57  <JVassie> I think deep down Eddi prefers realism to fun :p
10:43:09  <planetmaker> I'd not bet on that
10:43:10  <Yexo> eddi: so you want them both? in that case make ET831 available from 1914 to at least 1920
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10:43:30  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: yes, very likely
10:44:06  <Eddi|zuHause> could move ET831 to "local" to make the difference more obvious
10:44:51  <planetmaker> Maybe we should abolish the 'general passenger' category
10:45:14  <planetmaker> to me the distinction between the 4 categories is not that clear, especially the unspecific one
10:45:16  <JVassie> its medium distance
10:45:23  <JVassie> not general passengers
10:45:26  <Yexo> and "commuter" is?
10:45:27  <planetmaker> express... yes. local ... yes and sbahn
10:45:40  <Yexo> commuter=sbahn?
10:45:44  <JVassie> commuter = sbahn
10:45:47  <planetmaker> I'd say so
10:45:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: "local" is "short distance, low capacity", "commuter" is "short distance, high capacity"
10:45:55  <JVassie> local = current equivalent of regioexpress / regiobahn
10:45:56  <Yexo> is sbahn a different railtype?
10:46:10  <JVassie> not necessarily
10:46:12  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: some are 3rd rail, others are normal track types
10:46:13  <planetmaker> but medium distance imho needs no spearate really....
10:46:18  <JVassie> some sbahns are 3rd rail, some are OHLE Yexo
10:46:20  <JVassie> lol
10:46:23  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Any particular reason for the current sorting order, or can I resort according to company/date?
10:46:36  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: "passenger" is more like "universal"
10:46:43  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i'd keep it
10:46:51  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: no, that sort order is not from me.
10:47:19  <Yexo> in 1925 there are no express engines availble, in 1935 there are 4
10:47:34  <Yexo> is the VT04 different enough from the others to keep?
10:47:40  <planetmaker> yes, that's how I understand it. But it currently adds engines which add to _each_ category
10:48:17  <Eddi|zuHause> we could put the VT04 to extended, like the Henschel-Wegmann-Zug (BR 61)
10:48:46  <Yexo> any problem with extending the E16 to 1934 (just before E18 is available)?
10:48:51  <JVassie> the distinction between express and passenger is more defined in terms of service ti was used for
10:48:52  <JVassie> *it
10:48:54  <Eddi|zuHause> but better is to combine the VT 04/06/07
10:48:59  <JVassie> rather than physical properties
10:49:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: no problem
10:49:08  <JVassie> liek size and speed
10:49:09  <JVassie> *like#
10:49:54  <Eddi|zuHause> the VT04 and derived series were quite vital to long-distance travel in the pre-war era
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10:50:53  <Yexo> one engine with a different livery depending on the year the it was build?
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10:52:04  <Eddi|zuHause> more like refit options. the VT04 is a 2-car-DMU, VT06 is 3-car-DMU and VT07 is 4-car-DMU
10:52:09  <Yexo> does the VT62 have some advantage over the 64?
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10:52:29  <Yexo> eddi: ok, years available 1935 until?
10:52:49  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: VT62 is a single railcar, 64 is a steam engine
10:54:05  <Yexo> and for gameplay?
10:55:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i say it's very different...
10:56:06  <Yexo> around 1935 we're looking at 7 different engines for passengers right now
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10:57:05  <planetmaker> wow...
10:57:07  <Yexo> perhaps make the 01 unavailable earlier and the 03 a bit later to they succeed eachother?
10:57:21  <michi_cc> Yexo: Don't forget to take the different axle weights into account, which is why both the 01 and the 03 are there.
10:57:25  <planetmaker> they're different track classes
10:57:41  <Yexo> hmm, ok
10:58:05  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: rather extend the S10¹ until the 03 becomes available
10:58:07  <michi_cc> 1935 has quite a lot engines, but there basically all different service class and axle weight
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11:00:48  <Yexo> 01.10 is a different livery of the 01? same for 03.10 and 03?
11:01:13  <Eddi|zuHause> they are streamlined and faster/stronger
11:01:41  <Eddi|zuHause> and if there wasn't war, they'd be built longer
11:02:15  <Yexo> again, 1 and 3 years available is too short. So we either merge them as different livery of the 01/03 or extend there lifetime
11:02:28  <Eddi|zuHause> there's quite a gap between the G10 and the 50...
11:02:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: extending their lifetime is a pretty straightforward thing
11:04:45  <Yexo> <Eddi|zuHause> there's quite a gap between the G10 and the 50... <- yes, but "heavy cargo" and "low axle weight" doesn't seem like a very good combination anyway
11:11:21  <Yexo> extend the G10 until the 86 comes out? the 86 seems not much weaker than the G10
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11:21:12  <Yexo> how different are the E18 and the E04?
11:23:55  <Yexo> and we're missing a universal or light cargo engine between 1911 and 1925
11:23:57  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Heavy cargo in 1910 is probably more similar to lighter cargo in 1930 (e.g. BR86) than to heavy cargo in 1940
11:24:09  <JVassie> hmmm a thought guys
11:24:23  <Yexo> hmm, unless the G10 would be classified as "light cargo"
11:24:24  <JVassie> are the introduction dates your talking about being changed on the main sheet too?
11:24:31  <Yexo> JVassie: don't think so
11:24:33  <JVassie> good :p
11:24:47  <JVassie> i presume were keeping 'realistic' values for the extended set
11:24:48  <Yexo> main sheet should keep factual information
11:25:00  <JVassie> :)
11:25:13  <Yexo> imo we shouldn't keep realistic values for the availability years at all
11:25:16  <Yexo> at least not too script
11:25:31  <Yexo> *strict
11:25:41  <michi_cc> Yexo: I don't think there is a good fitting prussian engine for that gap (or I've missed it so far).
11:26:05  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: G10 as light cargo doesn'T sound right
11:26:27  <Eddi|zuHause> probably extend the T9¹ or something
11:26:28  <Yexo> eddi: probably not in RL, but given the timeline as we have now it will be used for it
11:26:28  <JVassie> Yexo: how would we provide an option for 'pure realism'?
11:26:37  <Yexo> JVassie: too many options
11:26:40  <Yexo> don't see the point
11:26:41  <JVassie> :p
11:26:49  <Yexo> but let's focus on the core set first
11:27:09  <JVassie> what it might be an idea to do when the time is appropriate
11:27:36  <JVassie> is do a similar timeline of both core + extended without modified values, and see how it looks, which areas are lacking etc
11:27:41  <JVassie> so at least basic gameplay is covered
11:28:06  <michi_cc> Those players that do care a bit about realism could also move the main freight routes to G10 while cascading the older, less powerful engines from there onto lighter freight routes.
11:28:20  <JVassie> woo
11:29:59  <Yexo> successor of the T11 is the T18?
11:30:26  <Yexo> or should it be extended ntil the 64 comes out?
11:30:37  <JVassie> t11 is local, t18 is commuter
11:32:03  <michi_cc> The G12 could also be extended a bit to cater for freight <18t  axle weight
11:32:15  <Yexo> I know, but the A2 is not a replacement for the T11
11:32:34  <Yexo> the ET831 possible is, but that one is electric
11:35:04  <Eddi|zuHause> T11 extended until the 64 sound like the better idea
11:35:19  <Yexo> keep ET831 or not?
11:36:30  <Yexo> michi_cc: sounds like a good idea
11:37:38  <JVassie> hmm
11:38:22  <Yexo> <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: G10 as light cargo doesn't sound right <- and as universal?
11:38:46  <michi_cc> Universal would mean passenger service as well, no idea if it was used like than in reality.
11:38:56  <JVassie> oh the 831 is the ET87?
11:39:04  <Yexo> ah, that was not what I menat
11:39:14  <Yexo> I thought "universal" was "light and heavy cargo"
11:39:22  <JVassie> universal is cargo + pax
11:39:34  <Yexo> ok, so ignore that suggestion
11:39:38  <JVassie> cargo is light and heavy cargo
11:39:39  <planetmaker> universal is really universal :-)
11:39:45  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: i'm fairly sure to keep the ET831
11:40:05  <Eddi|zuHause> but there aren't really any replacements for it on the DR side, only DB followed up on EMUs
11:40:13  <JVassie> its possible to change a trains name based on date?
11:40:19  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: no
11:40:22  <JVassie> :(
11:40:33  <Eddi|zuHause> unless you write a patch for it ;)
11:40:33  <JVassie> that would be good
11:40:35  <JVassie> lol
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11:40:40  <JVassie> you lot are the patchmakers :p
11:41:08  <michi_cc> ET831 could be kept, some "eye-candy" stuff should be in the core set (just like the DBSetXL has the BR 05 even if just three engines were ever built)
11:41:30  <JVassie> ET831 (ET87s) were quite popular, no?
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11:43:18  <JVassie> hmm
11:43:30  <JVassie> the stats for it look wildy different to those in DBXL
11:43:48  <Yexo> extend P2 by a few years and S1 until the P8 comes out?
11:44:14  <JVassie> good idea yexo
11:44:42  <Yexo> hmm, until P8 comes out or until the S10?
11:44:45  <peter1138> stats in DBXL are rather messed up
11:44:55  <JVassie> S1 down to S10
11:44:57  <peter1138> since the behaviour of some things changed
11:44:58  <JVassie> i think
11:45:08  <JVassie> and P2 down to T11?
11:45:37  <Yexo> not sure, how different is the T3?
11:46:16  <JVassie> quite different
11:46:29  <JVassie> S1 has 90kph, T3 just 40kph
11:46:51  <michi_cc> IMHO there's no need to extend everything, it makes for more interesting and challenging gameplay if you don't have the perfect engine for everything all the time.
11:48:09  <Yexo> true, but now at first you have the S1 (with 90kph) available alongside the T3 (only 40kph), a few years later only the T3
11:48:13  <Eddi|zuHause> we could always add the S6 inbetween
11:48:24  <Yexo> which means a setback for passenger transport
11:48:58  <JVassie> between 1899 and 1902 only pax loco is 40kph
11:49:02  <JVassie> currently
11:49:25  <Yexo> adding S6 seems like a good idea
11:49:39  <JVassie> or the P4(2)?
11:50:03  <michi_cc> e.g. 1939 right now has 15 different engines, and even if they do serve different service classes and axle weights, that is still a very high number.
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11:50:31  <JVassie> hmm true
11:50:54  <JVassie> 1938 has 13, 1940 also 15#
11:51:06  <Yexo> michi_cc: completely agree, we should drop a few there
11:51:18  <JVassie> between '37 and '41 a lot of locos 'change over'
11:52:09  <Yexo> drop VT137 ?
11:52:39  <Yexo> or VT62 instead?
11:53:00  <JVassie> id almost say both
11:53:05  <JVassie> 62 for sure
11:53:25  <JVassie> VT137 almost mirrors ET171
11:53:34  <JVassie> but one is 3rd rail, the other diesel
11:53:59  <JVassie> also a general spreadsheet thought guys
11:54:00  <michi_cc> That is one of the periods where I'd say that a gap or two between engines wouldn't hurt and would make such change-over periods less cluttered
11:54:12  <JVassie> wouldnt useage be better to the right of the names, so we can freeze the name column?
11:54:56  <michi_cc> Regardless of that, both the S1 and the P2 can be extended a few years (just not necessarily right up to S10 and P8)
11:55:39  <Yexo> given both 2 extra years now
11:55:55  <JVassie> betetr :)
11:55:56  <JVassie> *better
11:56:06  <JVassie> any objections to my idea?
11:56:18  <Yexo> about 1939: for "express" we have the 03, VT04 and E18 all for axle weight < 18t
11:56:22  <JVassie> would make working on columns not immediatly visible a lot easier
11:56:27  <Yexo> JVassie: freeze the names in general specs? fine
11:56:55  <michi_cc> VT04 I don't know, but electric/non-eletric is nmo duplication
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11:59:20  <Yexo> another option is to extend the 86 a few years, leave out the 50 and make the 50N available a few years earlier
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12:02:38  <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't make a lot of sense...
12:02:56  <Eddi|zuHause> could replace the 50 with the 52, though
12:03:41  <Yexo> the 52 has a higher axle weight
12:04:04  <Yexo> hmm, sorry
12:04:07  <Yexo> wrong row
12:04:26  <Eddi|zuHause> 52 is the "war engine"
12:04:41  <Yexo> that sounds good
12:04:52  <Yexo> eddi: and about the VT137 / VT62 ?
12:05:18  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: the VT137 might go
12:06:50  <Eddi|zuHause> but it is very natural that around 1940 was the "widest" spread of vehicles, at the height of the development
12:07:27  <MNIM> I assume we're talking steampower wheels?
12:07:50  <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: what begins with "V" is diesel powered
12:07:57  <MNIM> 0-o
12:08:13  <MNIM> didn't know 1940 was diesel peak
12:08:26  <MNIM> if you asked me, Id have said 1960 or so
12:08:49  <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: well, after the war, everything had to slowly restart
12:10:48  <peter1138> germany went massively with electrics
12:10:53  <peter1138> iirc
12:11:00  <peter1138> well, i wouldn't remember, as such
12:11:06  <peter1138> i'm not _that_ old
12:11:19  <MNIM> granted, germany had to do pretty much everything from scratch so they went electric
12:11:43  <MNIM> but as far as Im aware, giant portions of the americas are still dieseled on even today
12:12:16  <MNIM> where, on the other hand, have never seen a diesel in this country (in my life, which isn't that long yet)
12:12:23  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: the electric network wasn't that big at that time, everything touching berlin must be steam or diesel. so they had pretty advanced stuff on that.
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12:27:48  <Eddi|zuHause> <JVassie> ET831 (ET87s) were quite popular, no? <-- they were used on touristic lines in silesia ("Riesengebirge"), which usually had very low usage, and then very high peaks. but that usage mode is unlikely to appear in openttd
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12:28:06  <JVassie> ah ok fair enough
12:29:02  <MNIM> hmmmmh
12:29:20  <MNIM> no such thing as tourists season in ottd
12:29:44  <MNIM> could be similated though
12:29:48  <MNIM> *simulated
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12:30:16  <MNIM> I mean, if its possible for secondary industries (like an oil refinery for example)
12:30:37  <MNIM> to produce only when a certain condition is met (oil is being delivered)
12:30:52  <Yexo> of course it can be created
12:30:59  <Yexo> that doesn't mean that it's a good idea to do so
12:31:13  <MNIM> then it should also be possible to make it so that towns/tourist centers tourist 'production' vary by season
12:31:22  <MNIM> why wouldn't it be a good idea?
12:32:26  <Eddi|zuHause> because openttd offers no options to manage vehicles seasonally
12:32:56  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. "attach 5 more wagons between june and september", or "wait in depot from october to may"
12:33:03  <JVassie> :p
12:33:09  <JVassie> shunting would be le win
12:33:24  <JVassie> not being able to split and join trains is the limiting factor
12:33:45  <MNIM> hmmmh, I forgot that, of course.
12:34:00  <MNIM> then again, the orders are lacking already in some ways
12:34:06  <MNIM> shunting, for example, indeed
12:34:11  <MNIM> uh
12:34:13  <MNIM> wait a second
12:34:13  <JVassie> well yeah
12:34:20  <JVassie> but i think its easier to create new orders
12:34:25  <JVassie> than it is to split/join trains
12:35:08  <MNIM> Im not sure, but isn't it possible to state in the orders timetable to say "Go to X, wait given time before leaving for Y"?
12:35:30  <MNIM> or are those times relative?
12:35:42  <JVassie> it would be with the timetable patch
12:35:58  <JVassie> or rather, it is possible with the timetable patch already
12:36:00  <MNIM> it shouldn't be /too/ hard to add absolute times to that
12:36:16  <JVassie> the base timetable patch works in ticks
12:36:17  <JVassie> iirc
12:36:33  <JVassie> so work out the number of ticks for october-june
12:36:45  <JVassie> :)
12:37:03  <JVassie> then go to depot order, and set the time to that number of ticks
12:37:32  <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: it is possible to make timetables, but it is not possible to synchonize them to the year, which has varying number of ticks
12:37:42  <MNIM> hmmmmhhh
12:37:46  <MNIM> eh
12:37:55  <Eddi|zuHause> and it's not possible to say "stay in depot and shut down (0 cost), then go again"
12:37:55  <MNIM> I just checked my timetable
12:38:10  <MNIM> and it clearly says "wait X days"
12:38:24  <JVassie> i wonder how many of the src files splitting/joining trains would affect
12:38:26  <MNIM> so unless the text is wrong -\o/-
12:39:09  <MNIM> and with the 2cc sets, trains standing still don't cost a lot (compared to running)
12:39:29  <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: but waiting at station causes costs
12:39:50  <Eddi|zuHause> stopping in depot does not
12:39:58  <MNIM> well, you wouldn't want to wait too long in the station anyway
12:40:41  <MNIM> considering your're throwing away a useful bay that way
12:40:45  <Yexo> MNIM: not every year has the same number of days
12:41:15  <MNIM> yexo: that's why there should be an option to add absolute times in terms of dd-mm
12:41:40  <Yexo> or just don't try to emulate seasonal transports at all and avoid the whole issue
12:42:19  <MNIM> true, but if we all followed that mindset, would there be a game called OTTD in the first place?
12:42:50  <MNIM> because, why make a new game from scratch when we already have the old original TTD?
12:43:20  <Belugas> hi hi
12:43:28  <JVassie> hmm
12:43:38  <JVassie> where is the code related to train creation in the src?
12:43:44  <MNIM> it's not the question of "why would we" that matters, but "Can we" and "Do we have the manhours for that" that matters
12:43:45  <Yexo> train_cmd.cpp ?
12:43:49  <Yexo> possible vehicle.cpp too
12:44:02  <Yexo> MNIM: I disagree with that
12:44:03  <JVassie> cant find it in vehicle.cpp
12:44:21  <Yexo> not everything which is possible or even coded does belong in OpenTTD
12:44:44  <MNIM> but sadly, to the question "can we" I have to answer "No, I can't" in my case
12:45:06  <JVassie> train_cmd looks more likely
12:45:15  <MNIM> Yexo: well, of course, there's the question "Do people want that, or will they want it" that goes before all
12:45:39  <Yexo> that is a subquestion of "why would we"
12:45:54  <JVassie> CommandCost CmdBuildRailVehicle(TileIndex tile, DoCommandFlag flags, const Engine *e, uint16 data, Vehicle **ret)
12:45:56  <MNIM> and if it improves realism, there's always people who would want it
12:48:20  <MNIM> hmmmmh
12:48:32  <MNIM> there's one thing that should really be included in savegames
12:48:51  <MNIM> open windows, their positions and statuses.
12:49:17  <MNIM> I keep having to pull up stuff like lists and transparency options
12:49:21  <Yexo> eddi: 3 different vehicles or a single one that changes over time?
12:49:25  <Yexo> or has different refits?
12:49:28  <Terkhen> MNIM: how would that work with multiplayer?
12:50:12  <MNIM> Hmmmmmh. how does multiplayer work exactly with this program?
12:50:22  <JVassie> painfully :p
12:50:38  <JVassie> Yexo, which 3 vehicles?
12:50:47  <Yexo> ET165 / ET166 / ET167
12:51:34  <MNIM> players broadcast actions to central server, server runs calculations and broadcasts what happens?
12:51:55  <Yexo> no, players send actions to server, server sends actions to all clients, all clients +server execute action at the same time
12:52:09  <MNIM> ...ouch
12:52:24  <MNIM> I get why jvassie said 'painfully'
12:53:07  <Yexo> why? lots of the map can change every tick. Sending all changes from the server to all clients would eat a massive amount of bandwidth
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12:53:30  <MNIM> hmmmmh, true
12:53:51  <Yexo> MNIM: keep in mind that the above is only for real actions, ie things that change something. Changing your transparancy options or moving a window around doesn't send anything to the server at all
12:54:02  <MNIM> I got that
12:54:28  <MNIM> so in the multiplayer case, you wouldn't have any benefit from that feature
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12:55:14  <MNIM> anyway, yexo, wouldnt that cause problems in case of packet loss?
12:55:27  <Yexo> ever heard of tcp?
12:55:30  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: they have almost identical stats, i think it should be only livery change
12:55:41  <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: ok, great :)
12:56:05  <MNIM> IE command "remove road" gets lost, the server  doesn't get that command, so nobody else either does too
12:56:12  <MNIM> or rather
12:56:21  <glx> can't happen
12:56:24  <Yexo> MNIM: tcp makes sure there is no packet loss.
12:56:29  <MNIM> hmmmh.
12:56:31  <Yexo> if a packet is lost it'll be resend
12:56:41  <Yexo> next packets are not accepted until the lost one has arrived
12:56:55  <Yexo> if it doesn't, then that means connection loss and you're dropped out of the game
12:57:31  <MNIM> ahah
12:58:17  <MNIM> so that basically means that a MP game runs continuously no matter how many people are on/offline?
12:58:25  <Yexo> it can be paused
12:58:35  <Yexo> but otherwise, yes
12:58:41  <MNIM> well, aside from deliberately pausing, yeah
12:59:11  <MNIM> so basically, the only real need to save is to prevent "oopsie server crashed, game is lost" situations
12:59:26  <Yexo> when you join the game the server sends you a savegame
12:59:44  <MNIM> ahah
13:00:11  <MNIM> the latest savegame that has been created the instant you join, I suppose?
13:00:23  <Yexo> no, it creates a new one at that exact moment
13:00:31  <MNIM> that's what I mean
13:00:38  <Yexo> ok
13:01:04  <MNIM> well, you could have a MP clientside save option
13:01:13  <Yexo> you already have
13:01:13  <MNIM> which doesn't actually saves the game
13:01:27  <MNIM> but the server details/ports/etc
13:01:47  <Yexo> the last server you joined is already stored in the config file
13:02:07  <MNIM> where your own window positions could be added after 'etc', no?
13:02:18  <Yexo> sure, would be possible
13:02:19  <MNIM> that's what I mean, yexo
13:02:39  * Yexo is still not interested in coding something like that though
13:03:04  <JVassie> xD
13:03:29  <MNIM> separate .mps (mp save) files so you don't need to look up the details of the server you joined the before the last server
13:03:38  <MNIM> *...everytime
13:03:46  <MNIM> eh, pressed enter too early
13:03:55  <Yexo> a separate section in the config file with favorite servers seems a better idea
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13:04:04  <SpComb> are open window states game-specific?
13:04:12  <Yexo> some are, some are not
13:04:18  <SpComb> if you're talking about windows like transparency options
13:04:22  <Yexo> no
13:04:33  <SpComb> you could just save all generic stickied windows when you close a game
13:04:39  <Yexo> transparancy options are stored in your config file
13:04:45  <Yexo> yes, you could do that
13:05:00  <MNIM> hmmmh
13:05:10  <MNIM> of course you could store windows in .cfg too
13:05:14  <Yexo> MNIM / SpComb: of course it's possible to some extend
13:05:18  <Yexo> that was never the question
13:05:32  <Yexo> you need someone interested enough to code it, then convince some dev it's a good idea to include it
13:05:40  <Yexo> don't waste your time convincing me :)
13:05:53  <MNIM> though that might prove problematic in the case of some windows
13:06:02  <SpComb> I don't particularly mind opening up my windows
13:06:15  <SpComb> unless I was in the middle of tweaking vehicle orders and need to reload due a crash or something
13:06:32  <Yexo> but the crash case will not be solved
13:06:35  <Terkhen> window state would probably not be saved in that case anyways
13:07:15  <MNIM> well, In case you want that specific vehicle orders window saved, you would need to include it in .sav, ot .cfg
13:07:24  <SpComb> vehicle crashes count as well :)
13:08:04  <MNIM> because that vehicle id might not exist in another game, and Im not sure what happens when the game tries to open the orders window of a vehicle that does not exist, but Im guessing it'll be painful
13:10:09  <Yexo> so far we already need sprites for 61 engines, according to the current timeline
13:10:26  * MNIM whistles
13:12:29  <Yexo> JVassie / Eddi|zuHause: has a decision already been made about company colours?
13:12:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: imho, no company colours, or only few pixels on wagons
13:12:58  <Eddi|zuHause> but nothing decided yet
13:13:04  <Yexo> I agree on that / ok
13:13:41  <MNIM> no company colours? :/
13:24:08  <TWerkhoven> could do something like a company-colored flag on engine/wagon (as appliccable)
13:27:06  <JVassie> No CC
13:27:08  <JVassie> no way
13:27:35  <JVassie> *shudder*
13:27:38  <JVassie> got 2cc set for that
13:27:40  <JVassie> and ToE
13:27:46  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly
13:28:11  <MNIM> gotta love 2CC, eh
13:29:19  <JVassie> MNIM, got 2cc and ToE sets with 2cc already
13:29:42  <JVassie> the original idea behind CETS was to 'replace' (i use that word lightly though) the DBXL set
13:29:47  <MNIM> 2cc, I have, toe, I don't
13:29:55  <MNIM> dbxl cets?
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13:30:24  <JVassie> DBXL, written by MB back in 2005
13:30:37  <MNIM> which is?
13:30:37  <JVassie> CETS is the set myself, eddi, planetmaker, yexo and michi are working on
13:30:41  <JVassie> *blink*
13:30:42  <MNIM> ah
13:31:00  <JVassie> DBXL, based on the trains of germany
13:31:01  <JVassie> :p
13:31:14  <JVassie> Central European Train Set
13:31:14  <MNIM> ah, deutshe bahn extra large?
13:31:17  <JVassie> mmm
13:31:24  <JVassie> there was an original DBSet
13:31:35  <JVassie> then he upgraded it to DBXL with a few new engines
13:31:37  <JVassie> etc
13:31:44  <peter1138> newgrf's moved on a bit (but only a bit) since 2005
13:31:51  <MNIM> no kidding
13:31:54  <MNIM> hmmmmh
13:31:56  <peter1138> i still think you ought to go 32bpp :S
13:32:03  * MNIM pokes dorpsgek
13:32:11  <MNIM> entertain me!
13:32:14  <MNIM> @roulette
13:32:20  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: that's a non-discussion as long as we have no artist ;)
13:32:26  <MNIM> hmmmmh. no reaction. sad
13:32:38  <peter1138> oh
13:32:44  <Terkhen> 32bpp boxes still look better than 8bpp boxes
13:32:45  <peter1138> thought someone was already drawing. hmm.
13:33:01  <Yexo> I don't think we even have a template yet
13:33:15  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker was starting with templates
13:33:28  <Yexo> yes, but the one uploaded to the issue tracker had some problems, right?
13:33:34  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
13:33:54  <JVassie> An idea i'd had was creating literally a set of boxes for each engine/wagon etc
13:33:57  <JVassie> which anyoen can do
13:34:01  <JVassie> make the boxes the right size
13:34:11  <JVassie> the boxes can then be replaced with graphics as theyre drawn
13:34:11  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... http://www.elektrische-bahnen.de/history/mdland/e71_rothensee.htm <-- would that be an easy enough shape to get started in blender?
13:34:44  <Yexo> to get started? it should be
13:34:49  <JVassie> And i still think we should have the option of 'normal' length wagons :D
13:34:59  <Eddi|zuHause> (that's EG525 of the EG511-537 series)
13:35:15  <Eddi|zuHause> (i.e. the earliest electric currently in the set)
13:35:19  <MNIM> huh, with those men besides it that loc looks rather monstrous
13:35:31  <Yexo> eddi: but not in the core set, right?
13:35:34  <MNIM> though short, it's pretty big
13:35:38  <peter1138> you could always render them *duck*
13:35:42  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: that's in the core set
13:35:59  <Yexo> the EG525? I can't find it
13:36:02  <MNIM> rendering would be nice if there were models to start with
13:36:04  <Eddi|zuHause> EG511
13:36:08  <Yexo> ah, ok
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13:37:40  <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: if you assume the men are around 1,70m, then the engine is around 4m high, which is not much different from modern engines
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13:38:11  <MNIM> hmmmh, true, but in general you see 3m at most of those things on stations
13:38:18  <MNIM> so they don't look that big
13:38:31  <Eddi|zuHause> that is a different problem ;)
13:38:52  <MNIM> but when the men besides it fit twice in its hight...
13:39:10  <JVassie> not much of a problem
13:39:13  <JVassie> its true to RL
13:39:21  <MNIM> didn't say it was a problem
13:39:32  <MNIM> I was just illustrating the mindfuck that is perception
13:40:37  <JVassie> ;p
13:41:44  <Terkhen> :)
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13:53:26  <JVassie> nice name o.0
13:54:13  <Eddi|zuHause> another realism/gameplay decision: the prototype of the BR 212 (DB: BR112) was built in 1982, but series production was only started in 1990
13:54:53  <JVassie> wasnt the other version of the BR112 built in the meanwhile?
13:55:07  <Yexo> let's first see what other engines we have in that time period
13:55:33  <Eddi|zuHause> the 243 was based on the 212 prototype, but with reduced speed/increased TE
13:55:50  <Eddi|zuHause> built from 1984-1991
13:56:06  <JVassie> and the 243s became 143s
13:56:12  <JVassie> and still in use in abundance
13:56:14  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, those
13:56:20  <JVassie> gotcha
13:56:27  <Eddi|zuHause> some of them also rebuilt to increased speed
13:56:56  <Yexo> why do we have two tabs "Timeline Prussia/DRG/DR/DBAG"?
13:57:11  <Eddi|zuHause> one DR and one DB
13:57:38  <Yexo> ah
13:57:45  <JVassie> :)
13:58:30  <JVassie> duplicates except for 1949-1990
13:59:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: from gameplay view, i'd rather have the 212 for 140km/h available in the 1980's than the 160km/h one in 1990, when DBAG stock with much higher speed becomes available
14:00:20  <JVassie> indeed
14:00:24  <Eddi|zuHause> same reason why i think having the 130 is a good idea
14:00:25  <JVassie> in the dbxl set
14:00:35  <JVassie> you get the BR120, BR112 and BR101 within a ew short years
14:00:38  <JVassie> *few
14:00:43  <peter1138> make all possible engines available and let the player decide ;)
14:00:45  <JVassie> all of which are really only useable for ICs
14:00:55  <JVassie> peter, thats called the extended set :p
14:01:01  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: we have that option planned as well :p
14:10:33  <Belugas> sounds like a set very usefull for historians ^_^
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14:10:51  <JVassie> haha
14:10:53  <JVassie> indeed Belugas
14:11:16  <JVassie> at last count we have some 256 entries in the tracking table
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14:25:46  <Belugas> impressive
14:32:31  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i'd not put the 101 as "universal"
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14:48:57  <JVassie> it is though Eddi? :s
14:49:03  <JVassie> pulls cargo and freight
14:49:06  <JVassie> derp
14:49:08  <JVassie> cargo and pax
14:53:06  <JVassie> Eddi, why passenger?
14:53:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never ever seen the 101 pull cargo
14:54:06  <Eddi|zuHause> 101 is a high speed passenger engine, just lower than the ICE
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15:02:35  <cicciobello> help
15:02:41  <cicciobello> df
15:02:44  <cicciobello> ls
15:03:05  <cicciobello> whois
15:03:25  <Terkhen> hi cicciobello
15:03:28  <Terkhen> what are you doing?
15:03:45  <cicciobello> just surfing
15:03:54  *** cicciobello [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit []
15:04:05  <Terkhen> just failing I guess
15:04:31  <Belugas> so he's not surfing anymore, he's drowning :)
15:04:59  <Terkhen> :D
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15:16:21  <JVassie> Eddi|zuHause: had any more thoughts on the longer wagons?
15:16:32  <Eddi|zuHause> what kind of thoughts do you mean?
15:16:51  <JVassie> ive just been taking another look at the mockup i made
15:17:05  <JVassie> do we need to make 24 equal to a whole tile?
15:17:11  <JVassie> *24m
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15:19:23  <Eddi|zuHause> the plan is (roughly): ~9m: 6lu, ~12m: 8lu, 18m: ~12lu, ~24m: 16lu
15:19:24  <JVassie> there isn't a real need for our 'longest item' (about 26m) to take up a whole tile, as opposed to say 3/4 or 4/5 or something
15:19:45  <Eddi|zuHause> err... one ~ misplaced
15:21:21  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: i'm fairly strong on the opinion of a full-tile wagon.
15:22:27  <JVassie> hmm
15:22:43  <JVassie> just cant help thinking that if we cant increase the height
15:22:51  <JVassie> the wagons are going to look *too* long
15:22:57  <JVassie> and well have gone from one extreme to the other
15:23:25  <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: the dummy engine in the repo is 16lu, right?
15:23:30  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
15:24:09  <Eddi|zuHause> passenger wagon length is ~18m pre-war and ~24m post-war
15:24:23  <Eddi|zuHause> freight wagons are usually shorter
15:26:21  <JVassie> could we make an lu 3px instead of 4px (in the __ view)
15:26:48  <Yexo> no, you can't change the relative length between the views
15:27:07  <JVassie> i meant the equivalent of 3pc in all views
15:27:11  <JVassie> not just __ :)
15:27:14  <JVassie> *3px
15:27:24  <JVassie> so make it 1.5 the size of current
15:27:29  <JVassie> not 2x the size
15:27:46  <Yexo> I don't care either way, but you're asking the same question eddi just said "no" to
15:28:08  <JVassie> really?
15:28:20  <JVassie> I think im askign a different question :p
15:28:41  <JVassie> let me rephrase
15:28:46  <JVassie> currently a wagon takes up half a tile
15:28:53  <JVassie> eddi wants it to take up a whole tile
15:28:56  <Yexo> JVassie: 16lu = 1 tile
15:28:58  <JVassie> im suggesting 3/4 of a tile
15:29:04  <Yexo> you can't change that
15:29:10  <Yexo> <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: i'm fairly strong on the opinion of a full-tile wagon.
15:29:41  <JVassie> i thought eddi invented the term lu for discussion in the set
15:30:12  <Yexo> by default each wagon has a length of half a tile or 8/8
15:30:20  <JVassie> exactly
15:30:28  <JVassie> Eddi wants to make wagons 16/8
15:30:39  <Yexo> which is one tile
15:30:41  <Eddi|zuHause> "lu" is a game unit, i just invented a word for it ;)
15:30:41  <JVassie> yep
15:30:50  <JVassie> why cant we make it 12/8 for 24m?
15:31:04  <Eddi|zuHause> we could, but i don't want to
15:31:07  <JVassie> the scale of width vs height looks really quite bad at 16/8
15:32:19  <JVassie> Eddi, why dont you want to?
15:34:09  <JVassie> also Eddi|zuHause: http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/7/1/5/1715.1149616800.jpg
15:35:18  <JVassie> guess freight is quite rare though
15:36:57  <Yexo> ET831 is listed with length 28.4 / 8
15:37:01  <Yexo> that seems overly long
15:37:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: it's 3 parts
15:38:18  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: that's only marginally longer than the DBSet-version
15:38:31  <Yexo> 3 parts, ok
15:39:17  <JVassie> :/
15:40:40  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: http://www.hfkern.de/Maerklin/Dt_Et_87.html
15:42:09  <Yexo> so 11/6/11 or something like that?
15:42:23  <JVassie> sounds about right
15:42:42  <JVassie> Eddi|zuHause: didnt answer my question ;)
15:45:41  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: don't take the heigh above track, take the heigh above the wheels, if that gives you better scale
15:45:57  <JVassie> the wheels are only 1 px
15:46:21  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is a lot if you only have 8px
15:46:28  <JVassie> and so it would be 7px, not 8px, which is worse as a scale surely
15:47:08  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i meant take your 9px mockup, and remove the line with the wheels
15:47:52  <Yexo> I finally noticed what is wrong with the steam: all 3 articulated parts emit steam
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15:50:09  <JVassie> hmm Eddi|zuHause
15:50:12  <JVassie> ill do some more mockups
15:50:36  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: best would be at least the 4 default directions
15:51:07  <Eddi|zuHause> to put them in a game and see how they interact with the rest of the game
15:51:43  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: keep in mind that the - view is awfully streched
15:52:36  <Eddi|zuHause> in relation to the / and \ views, the - is 33% too long
15:53:08  <Eddi|zuHause> and the / and \ views are the most relevant to gameplay
15:53:56  <Eddi|zuHause> but this is a deep game limitation i'm not eager to solve
15:54:04  <JVassie> mmm
15:57:07  <JVassie> 64*8 (not including wheels) looks a bit better
15:57:19  <JVassie> with redrawn windows
15:57:22  <JVassie> doors etc
15:57:46  <Yexo> care to share that preview?
16:00:16  <JVassie> http://jvassie.net/img/dblsprites2.png
16:00:23  <JVassie> only done ___ view so far though
16:00:37  <JVassie> each of those views have had wheels chopped off
16:00:45  <JVassie> and the body extended as a result
16:05:48  <JVassie> thoughts Yexo / Eddi|zuHause ?
16:06:28  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: have an original picture? and really, i do think the / and \ views are the important ones
16:06:37  <Eddi|zuHause> the - view may always look odd
16:06:45  *** ashledombos [~ashledomb@marvin-18-230.cnt.nerim.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:06:58  <JVassie> picture of real life?
16:07:22  <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
16:07:30  <Eddi|zuHause> for comparison, you know.
16:08:59  <JVassie> http://www.activitysimulatorworld.net/Les%20wagons%20passager/SNCF_CORAIL_RESKIN.jpg
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16:09:01  <JVassie> like those roughly
16:09:30  <JVassie> just a 30 second mickup though
16:09:33  <JVassie> *mockup
16:10:29  <Eddi|zuHause> they look more like 20m, not 24-26m
16:11:03  <JVassie> mmm
16:11:08  <JVassie> its just a fairly generic coach
16:12:32  <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.lsmodels.com/Pages/General_F/Home_F.htm
16:12:57  <Eddi|zuHause> you notice they have a window more
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16:15:55  <foobar2> hi
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16:29:41  <JVassie> indeed they do Eddi|zuHause
16:29:52  <JVassie> the SBB ones are 24m?
16:30:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure those are 26m
16:30:37  <JVassie> gotcha
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16:31:07  <JVassie> could really do with some longer loco sprites too to compare
16:31:33  <Eddi|zuHause> locos are usually shorter
16:31:57  <JVassie> mmm, but in the new scale, a lot would be longer than the half tile they are currently
16:32:15  <JVassie> which in our new scale is 12m
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16:33:28  <Eddi|zuHause> probably around 18m, so 12lu
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16:35:27  <Hyronymus> hello
16:35:29  <JVassie> hey
16:35:36  <Hyronymus> hi
16:35:37  <JVassie> whole thing makes my head hurt Eddi|zuHause
16:35:38  <JVassie> :p
16:35:42  <Yexo> hello Hyronymus
16:35:46  <Hyronymus> hi Yexo
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16:38:18  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 2490/87
16:38:18  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 28.6206896552
16:38:51  <Eddi|zuHause> they cheated with this model as well
16:39:22  <JVassie> how so?
16:39:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a model wagon in H0 (1:87) scale that says 24,90m at the side, but it is 24,90cm (1:100) long
16:40:36  <JVassie> heh
16:41:01  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 2125/87
16:41:01  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 24.4252873563
16:41:18  <Eddi|zuHause> this one is correct scale
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16:44:36  <Eddi|zuHause> something different, i think the "short name" should not be longer than 5 characters
16:44:36  <Hyronymus> enemy at the gate
16:44:46  <Hyronymus> there can only be one jeroen in here
16:45:17  <JVassie> enemy at the gate is an amazing film
16:45:29  <JVassie> good idea Eddi|zuHause
16:45:41  <JVassie> we at some point need to decide on a display name
16:45:56  <JVassie> will we include (Steam), (Diesel), (Electric) etc after each name, or?
16:46:20  <Hyronymus> is it possible to display an image rather than a name
16:46:37  <JVassie> well you have the depto sprite
16:46:38  <Hyronymus> a steam cloud, spark or diesel smoke i.e.
16:46:38  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: my suggestion was "original name (company/region, alternate name(s))"
16:46:39  <JVassie> *depot
16:46:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Hyronymus: yes, that is possible, 2ccSet does that
16:47:08  <Eddi|zuHause> imho we should try to do that, too
16:47:10  <JVassie> Eddi, Baureihe or BR?
16:47:38  <Hyronymus> Eddi|zuHause: and when you hover on it, can it display a name?
16:47:42  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: currently i prefer Baureihe for the original name, and BR for alternate names
16:47:44  <Hyronymus> *a word
16:47:46  <Hyronymus> like steam
16:47:47  <Eddi|zuHause> Hyronymus: no
16:47:58  <Hyronymus> oh, I was pushing my luch right
16:47:59  <Hyronymus> :P
16:48:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Hyronymus: but it can say that in the description text
16:48:06  <JVassie> cant use tooltips Eddi?
16:48:14  *** ptb2 [~admin@64.231.19.224] has joined #openttd
16:48:31  * Hyronymus wonders if a new depot column is needed
16:48:43  <Hyronymus> one that makes sorting possible too
16:48:51  <ptb2> herro
16:48:56  <ptb2> i am on gentoo
16:48:56  <Hyronymus> so you have steam engines first, then diesel or something
16:49:05  <ptb2> i emerged opentd ver 1.0.5
16:49:10  * Hyronymus is on crack
16:49:12  <ptb2> i try to start, commandnot found
16:49:24  <ptb2> also i am using enlightenment window manager
16:49:40  <Yexo> ptb2: you either didn't install it correct or use the wrong name for starting it
16:49:41  <ptb2> and emerge DID download/install the opengfx sfx msx
16:49:49  <ptb2> whats default name for starting?
16:49:52  <Yexo> openttd
16:49:54  *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO]
16:49:55  <ptb2> ;o
16:49:59  <Yexo> what else?
16:50:01  <ptb2> guess it was installed wrong
16:50:17  <Yexo> 1.0.5 is old, if possible try updating to 1.1.1
16:50:27  <JVassie> Hyronymus: you can already sort column
16:50:37  <ptb2> maybe i just install manually then i guess
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16:55:12  <Hyronymus> I know JVassie
16:55:37  <JVassie> wish my headache would go away :(
16:56:10  <Hyronymus> your brain can only monitor one severe pain at a time
16:56:23  <Hyronymus> try kicking your foot against a concrete wall ;)
16:56:45  <Alberth> or concentrate very hard at something else :)
16:57:01  <Hyronymus> that was the other trick
16:57:04  <JVassie> Alberth: trying to concentrate on doing work, not happening
16:57:06  <JVassie> :x
16:57:07  <Hyronymus> but not as funny
16:57:25  <Alberth> Hyronymus: yeah, and your trick also works better ;)
16:57:49  <ptb2> anyone on gentoo
16:58:14  <Alberth> ptb2: what happens if you start the program from the console?
16:58:25  <ptb2> same thing
16:58:28  <ptb2> bash: openttd: command not fonud
16:58:38  <Alberth> where did you install it?
16:58:41  <ptb2> maybe USE flag related?
16:58:43  <ptb2> its in..
16:59:20  <Alberth> find /usr -name openttd -print
16:59:23  <Hyronymus> dinner time
16:59:28  <Hyronymus> pancakes!
16:59:33  <Alberth> Hyronymus: enjoy!
16:59:37  *** Hyronymus is now known as Hyr|pancakes
17:00:08  <ptb2> just waiting for that command to return somethingg
17:00:11  *** Juo [~Juo@87-194-64-202.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Juo]
17:00:18  <Eddi|zuHause> -print is superfluous
17:00:19  <Alberth> yeah, it may take a while :)
17:00:31  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: for linuces yes, for BSDs no
17:00:41  <Eddi|zuHause> he said gentoo
17:00:52  <Alberth> and I like to stay BSD-compatible :p
17:01:08  <ptb2> /usr/portage/games-simulation/openttd
17:01:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know any BSDs
17:01:26  <Eddi|zuHause> ptb2: that is likely just not in your path
17:01:35  <ptb2> /usr/games/bin/openttd
17:01:47  <ptb2> ping 173.160.242.50
17:01:49  <ptb2> oops
17:01:51  <ptb2> ignore that
17:01:53  <ptb2> :)
17:02:07  <Alberth> so type  /usr/games/bin/openttd
17:03:09  <Eddi|zuHause> man that IP is almost at the opposite of the world :p
17:03:09  <Alberth> ie first figuring out whether it works would be more interesting than adding it to your path, I think :)
17:05:34  *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:05:39  <ptb2> well ill be
17:05:41  <ptb2> Alberth
17:05:43  <ptb2> that did it
17:05:45  <ptb2> :D
17:05:53  <ptb2> althogh i need to get my hands on the original music
17:06:05  *** TheMask96 [martijn@envy.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:07:43  *** Nice [5472b1fc@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
17:07:49  <Nice> Hi!
17:08:12  <Alberth> the simplest way to add openttd to your path is perhaps to make a softlink to it from $HOME/bin
17:08:17  <Alberth> hi, nice
17:08:18  <Nice> ottd 111 runs smooth as never before ...
17:09:16  <Terkhen> hi Nice
17:09:27  <Alberth> hi Terkhen
17:09:31  <Terkhen> hi :P
17:09:37  <Nice> but cries about the autoorders view - do autoorders stay in orderslist permanently, so you have to delete them by hand, or do they dissapear by themselfs after some time??
17:10:08  <Nice> (i misstyped my noickname
17:10:19  <Nice> n i ck n a m a
17:10:45  *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
17:10:46  <Nice> n  i   c   k   n   a  m  e
17:10:57  <Nice> phew last night was long ;-)
17:11:53  <Alberth> if vehicles don't visit the stations of the implicit orders any more (auto orders got renamed :) ), they will disappear in time
17:12:12  <Nice> kk ... thx ... phew
17:12:20  <Alberth> Nice: long night playing openttd, right?  :D
17:12:23  <Nice> after what time?
17:12:34  <Terkhen> Nice: you can always use "go non-stop" orders
17:12:56  <Nice> no - long night having outdoor party
17:13:11  <Terkhen> probably after they visit all the stations in their orders without stopping at any other station
17:13:16  <Nice> (i know "outdoorparty" is not an english word)
17:13:41  *** TheMask96 [martijn@wrath.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd
17:13:41  <Alberth> or you can add all station it visits explicitly, so it won't create implicit orders
17:15:08  <Nice> i have them explixitly but do nOt want non stop orders - the autoorders happen when i buy trains in some depot so there are stations between the first order in list
17:16:05  <Alberth> ah, they should disappear the second time the vehicle goes to the first station then
17:16:14  <Nice> i want trains to stop at any station they pass, i just dont want auttooreders to fill up /mess up the list ... still(!)
17:16:14  *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has joined #openttd
17:16:37  <Nice> i remember saying similar things ...
17:17:19  <Nice> autoorder view needs an on/off switch really!
17:17:59  <Terkhen> get to it :P
17:18:12  <Alberth> some further fixes have been done in that area, I don't know how far they have trickled through to the stables though
17:18:17  *** amkoroew [~matze@p5B106E55.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
17:18:59  <Nice> besides that ottd is now that tuned that i cannot think of any small necessary changes at all, its really ready for the "next big thing" i think
17:18:59  <Nice> *ty
17:19:33  * Terkhen still has a full todo list
17:19:53  <Terkhen> probably depends on what is the "next big thing"
17:20:07  *** Lakie [~Lakie@82.153.139.65] has joined #openttd
17:20:10  <Nice> not sure about that
17:20:23  <Alberth> or how big 'big' is :p
17:20:35  <Nice> might be "cargodistdestdostdast"
17:20:56  <Nice> "dust" i forgot
17:21:02  <SpComb> cargodust
17:21:09  <Nice> :)
17:21:21  <Nice> dustribution
17:21:38  <SpComb> destribution
17:22:13  <Nice> btw for me autoorders are only "fixed" when i can switch them off .
17:23:10  <Nice> oh suit!
17:23:28  <Nice> autoorders just showed me a wrong depot order :X
17:23:32  *** Lakie [~Lakie@82.153.139.65] has quit []
17:24:00  <Nice> (explicit instead of nearest depot)
17:24:18  <Alberth> so yeah, they are completely useless :p
17:24:19  <Nice> so ok its a nice feature, but not always ...
17:24:54  <Alberth> :)
17:25:27  <Terkhen> that's why they are there: to allow people that don't use "non-stop" orders to know where do trains actually stop
17:26:04  *** Nice is now known as Nite
17:26:41  <Nite> non-stop order do not clear the issue
17:27:18  <Terkhen> I did not say that :P
17:27:26  <Nite> because often you do NOT want nonstop but still dont want autoorders to be shown because they fill up your list.
17:28:13  <Nite> i pointed at it enough now ;)
17:28:14  <Terkhen> but without implicit orders, people that use normal orders have no way to know where the trains are actually going unless they follow a train for a while
17:28:30  <Terkhen> why do they fill your list? that was fixed IIRC
17:29:06  <Nite> true that - an autoorders is a nice feature to check how your orders work - but nOt aaaaaaalways
17:30:02  <Nite> a television also is a nice thing to watch the news but still it has an on off switch.
17:30:35  <Terkhen> whatever
17:31:18  <Nite> yeah anyway
17:33:37  *** amkoroew [~matze@p5B106E55.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
17:38:57  <Nite> ... hav to agree now that autoorders are much better now - disappear rather quick after everything fixed ...
17:40:10  <Nite> i also was not able to create duplicate autoorders ...
17:40:19  <Nite> which is nice
17:40:52  <Nite> ... what are intresting servers you play atm?
17:41:10  *** Pixa [~Pixa@85.210.76.219] has joined #openttd
17:41:58  <Alberth> none
17:42:07  * Terkhen only knows spanish servers and openttdcoop
17:42:37  <Terkhen> but I won't be playing much for weeks
17:43:49  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22607 /trunk/src/lang/esperanto.txt:
17:43:49  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:43:49  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: esperanto - 3 changes by Christopher
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18:02:34  <ptb2> is ttdx freeware yet?
18:03:00  <SpComb> still under copyright
18:03:08  <ptb2> till when
18:03:09  <ptb2> :x
18:03:12  <SpComb> (for the next 50 years or whatever)
18:03:13  <ptb2> i want that original music
18:03:14  <ptb2> omg
18:03:27  <Eddi|zuHause> till the death of the author and then another 70 years
18:03:36  <SpComb> right
18:03:40  <Eddi|zuHause> and as far as we know, nobody involved died yet
18:03:43  <ptb2> so what youre saying is...kill Chris Sawyer
18:03:59  <SpComb> not supposed to work that way :)
18:03:59  <ptb2> u cood go to jail for saying these things
18:04:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Chris Sawyer is not author of the music
18:04:07  <ptb2> oh true
18:04:11  <ptb2> i wonder who is
18:04:30  <peter1138> if you just want the original music, you could... get the original game
18:04:38  <ptb2> where
18:04:57  <Eddi|zuHause> on the known or implied locations
18:05:10  <peter1138> i got mine from ebay
18:05:18  <peter1138> well, from some guy, via ebay
18:05:41  <ptb2> heh
18:05:49  <ptb2> wow did he have original cd and stuff
18:05:52  <ptb2> er disk?
18:05:55  <Terkhen> ptb2: IIRC it is also on amazon
18:06:04  <ptb2> cool
18:06:06  <ptb2>  i will chekc this out
18:06:11  <ptb2> after smoke
18:06:14  <ptb2> ;)
18:06:52  <__ln__> are you smoking to indicate you've broken down?
18:06:52  <peter1138> yeah
18:07:00  <peter1138> came with RCT too
18:07:21  <ptb2> __ln__ : yes
18:07:25  <ptb2> peter1138 : cool
18:07:29  <SpComb> ultimate tycoon collection
18:07:32  *** amkoroew [~matze@p5B106E55.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
18:07:34  <ptb2> pizza tycoon
18:07:36  <ptb2> i rember that one
18:08:09  <SpComb> hmm no, wasn't that one
18:08:29  <SpComb> it was a green box with TTD, RR, and I think RCT and some fourth one
18:08:51  <peter1138> yeah
18:09:30  <peter1138> TTD, RCT and RRT2
18:10:55  <peter1138> the fourth disc is a manual
18:11:17  <SpComb> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hasbro-Tycoon-Collection-3-pack/dp/B00004UBQ0
18:12:41  <peter1138> yeh
18:13:03  <peter1138> although i got it for less than that
18:13:44  *** amkoroew [~matze@p5B106E55.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
18:13:55  <peter1138> i can't imagine a 3 year old doing very well
18:14:21  <SpComb> as long as they can't swallow the CD
18:15:28  *** amkoroew [~matze@p5B106E55.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit []
18:20:34  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: The 101 is already doing some cargo is is supposed to do a lot more in the future, see http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DBAG-Baureihe_101#Einsatz
18:21:19  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: yes, but that is true for almost any other engine in the set, but the "usage" should be more the original intent
18:21:57  <michi_cc> Wikipedia (which admittedly can be wrong) states designed as an universal engine.
18:27:46  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: well, we could throw it out completely, and use the 145 (passenger) and 152 (cargo) instead
18:28:20  <Eddi|zuHause> or rather 146
18:29:44  <michi_cc> Well, I'm not sure if the 101 is needed from a stats POV, but it is *the* IC engine right now, so I figured players might want to build it
18:30:01  <Eddi|zuHause> that is my thought as well
18:30:27  <Eddi|zuHause> but basically any modern engine can be put as "universal", so i'd see it not that strictly
18:51:01  <Eddi|zuHause> what DBAG is really short of is diesel engines
18:53:02  <Rubidium> and trains that work in the winter
18:53:07  <Rubidium> ;)
18:53:57  <Eddi|zuHause> or in the summer, for that matter ;)
18:56:13  <Rubidium> what? Those ICEs work perfectly well as advertised: http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmh6bikThd1qca1h5o1_500.jpg
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18:57:18  <andythenorth> evenings
18:57:40  <andythenorth> Yexo: FIRS 0.6.5 - how soon would you like to release it ?
18:57:51  <Yexo> soon as possible
18:57:54  <andythenorth> ok
18:58:00  <andythenorth> I haven't played any more test game yet
18:58:02  <Yexo> the cf has build beta3
18:58:11  <andythenorth> I won't really have time until next week possibly
18:58:26  <andythenorth> what results do others have?
18:58:30  <andythenorth> Terkhen: planetmaker et al?
18:58:37  <Yexo> no more testing done after that game I think
18:58:53  <Rubidium> those Baureihe 425's Dutch "children" are really well suited for snowy situations. They have extraordinarily well cooling when there's snow, after all... they cool the electrical systems with the snow that's on the track
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19:08:54  <Yexo> heh, callback for breakdown chance anyone? massively increase the chance when driving above the snowline :p
19:09:54  * Hirundo ponders NewGRF breakdowns ...
19:10:11  <andythenorth> reduce the chance if train contains snowplough
19:10:17  <andythenorth> hmm
19:10:38  <andythenorth> railroad tycoon reduced train robberies if you added a caboose
19:10:50  <andythenorth> NewBreakdowns
19:11:03  <andythenorth> NewNewgrfBreakdowns
19:12:39  <Hirundo> You'd get pretty far if newgrf could disable breakdown smoke (or change its graphics) and change properties (call CB 36) upon entering/leaving the broken state
19:13:07  <andythenorth> 'stuck in snow'
19:13:10  <andythenorth> 'out of fuel'
19:13:13  <andythenorth> 'train robbed'
19:13:28  <andythenorth> new cb: amount of  cargo to remove from each vehicle
19:14:37  <Hirundo> As a start, I suggest a flag in the vehicle bitmask to disable smoke for breakdowns, it looks really ugly for eGRVTS horse-drawn vehicles
19:14:45  <andythenorth> yarp
19:14:59  <Hirundo> same for sailing ships
19:15:03  * andythenorth wonders at a new class of grfs
19:15:05  <andythenorth> 'economy'
19:15:14  <andythenorth> maybe town control is really an economy thing
19:15:19  <andythenorth> as are breakdowns
19:15:25  <andythenorth> independent from vehicles etc
19:15:28  <andythenorth> perhaps not
19:17:54  <Eddi|zuHause> how do you want to describe a breakdown (condition, effect) in a grf?
19:17:58  <Hirundo> should a newgrf flag 'disable breakdown smoke' also disable the associated sound, or is that best left to the sound CB
19:18:50  <Eddi|zuHause> horses need a new breakdown sound :p
19:19:54  *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-26-18-9.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
19:20:51  <MNIM> yeah, they should be whinnying or something
19:21:39  <Alberth> because a wheel of the cart they pull broke? nah
19:22:22  <MNIM> hmmmh, that's probably better
19:22:54  <MNIM> yeah, in that case, I don't think the sound of a broken cylinder should be used
19:23:04  <MNIM> more like a good juicy *CRACK*
19:24:14  <andythenorth> Hirundo: it should return a sound to play?
19:25:07  *** ptb2 [~admin@64.231.19.224] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:25:08  <andythenorth> Hirundo: could a sound ID be stuck into register 100h or such?
19:25:23  <Terkhen> andythenorth: I won't have much time until the 15th of july
19:25:45  <Hirundo> where? mind, there is a sound CB already that's called on a breakdown
19:25:47  <Terkhen> we can continue testing a bit now if you want to, I won't be coding much else today
19:26:00  <andythenorth> I have no time sadly :|
19:27:15  <Terkhen> ok :P
19:28:41  <Hirundo> hmm.. currently it seems not possible to play no sound, except by including an empty sound file *files bug*
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19:59:30  <JVassie> soooo quiet
20:02:17  <Terkhen> yup
20:11:06  *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
20:14:55  <Terkhen> good night
20:15:46  <Eddi|zuHause> there's also the issue that when cost animation is disabled (e.g. title screen) then there is still income sound played
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20:35:45  <lugo> 10
20:37:45  <__ln__> if i submitted a patch that did "#define lol ;", and replaced every semicolon in the codebase with 'lol', would it be accepted?
20:41:22  <Wolf01> 'night
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20:58:22  <__ln__> i take the silence as 'yes'
21:00:57  <Eddi|zuHause> # words like violence
21:01:02  <Eddi|zuHause> # break the silence
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21:07:25  <Eddi|zuHause> 6. Aug 2008  yapp_r13840_v9.patch ... oh those were the times...
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22:19:27  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... only thing missing now is a "light cargo" engine after the V60 and V100 run out
22:28:52  <JVassie> date?
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22:30:07  <JVassie> BR145?
22:30:11  <JVassie> or is that too heavy?
22:35:15  <Eddi|zuHause> that is not really "light"
22:35:36  <Eddi|zuHause> something that moves 3 wagons in a feeder service
22:36:45  <JVassie> need a DBAG shunter then
22:37:11  <JVassie> BR294?
22:37:18  <JVassie> or one is derivatives?
22:37:20  <JVassie> *of its
22:39:31  <Eddi|zuHause> currently, the West-V60 still does this job
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22:42:12  <JVassie> so it needs to be something more recent or?
22:42:43  <Eddi|zuHause> that would be preferable, but i don't think you find such a thing
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22:44:49  <michi_cc> So something like the http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voith_Gravita just not that recent :)
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22:56:29  <JVassie> BR214 in 2009
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22:59:24  <Eddi|zuHause> not really "less recent" :p
22:59:39  <JVassie> xD
22:59:54  <JVassie> around 2005? 2000?
23:00:49  <Eddi|zuHause> better would be something mid-1990s
23:01:01  <michi_cc> 1990 or so, but there really just isn't anything tha actually ran for DB/DR (baring a few single-loco experiments)
23:01:01  <JVassie> 294 is 1995
23:01:06  <JVassie> or is it 291
23:01:50  <JVassie> 295 in 1995, 84 left 10/2009
23:01:59  <JVassie> *BR295
23:02:25  <michi_cc> That's just modification of existing V90s
23:03:01  <JVassie> why not BR362 perhaps? 2000
23:03:05  <JVassie> quite small though
23:03:39  <Eddi|zuHause> well, reconstruction of existing locos is very DR-like :p
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23:04:52  <michi_cc> 362 is only a re-motorisation of old V60s
23:05:16  <JVassie> lawl
23:05:19  <JVassie> fine
23:05:20  <JVassie> i quit
23:05:21  <JVassie> :D
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