Config
Log for #openttd on 7th July 2011:
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00:23:36  <maglev> ah
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06:33:45  <Terkhen> good morning
06:33:59  <Markk> Goedemorgen. :)
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07:22:38  <dihedral> good morning
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11:13:20  <andythenorth> hola
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11:20:43  <Chris_Booth> hola
11:20:58  <__ln__> hola
11:36:12  <blup> oi
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12:24:35  * andythenorth ponders rivers
12:25:12  * andythenorth got fed up with rivers previously
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12:55:41  <andythenorth> my big towboat in FISH overlaps canal edges horribly :(
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13:09:10  <MNIM> :/
13:09:34  <MNIM> andy: is that new content you're building?
13:10:41  <MNIM> I have to wonder, though, why has nobody of making something like the log tugboat with barges instead of logs
13:10:52  <MNIM> good to hear somebody is working on it though
13:15:09  <andythenorth> MNIM: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/tugboat.png
13:15:33  <MNIM> hmmmh, neat
13:15:43  <andythenorth> refittable
13:15:47  <andythenorth> 1-5 barges
13:16:15  <MNIM> though I'd put the tugboat in the center of direction of travel
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13:17:06  <MNIM> but that's just my ocdness on vehicles, I suppose. :P
13:17:30  <MNIM> a vehicle is supposed to LOOK good otherwise it'll never drive/float/fly good. :)
13:19:06  <Belugas> hello
13:19:14  <MNIM> 'elleu
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14:13:55  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r22639 /trunk/src/ (engine_type.h newgrf.cpp ship_cmd.cpp): -Feature: [NewGRF] Support for ship props 14/15 (ocean/canal speed fraction).
14:14:05  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r22638 /trunk/src/ (water_cmd.cpp water_map.h): -Fix: Keep the previous owner of the upper and lower lock parts if they are built on existing water.
14:14:38  <michi_cc> andythenorth: ^^ might be interesting for you
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14:16:25  <peter1138> what about river speed? :)
14:16:57  <MNIM> do they already have something like roadtypes?
14:17:21  <MNIM> it would be nice to have something like nutracks with speedlimits on roads
14:18:02  <michi_cc> Rivers and canals, at least what the NewGRF specs are concerned.
14:18:09  <michi_cc> s/and/are/
14:18:15  <MNIM> sandpath - 16kmh, cobblestones 50, concrete 80, asphalt 140 or something like that.
14:18:31  <dihedral> and who defines that?
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14:26:21  <planetmaker> dihedral, the newgrf, like for railtypes
14:26:49  <planetmaker> but then... I know that cobblestone's limit is definitely significantly higher than 50km/h :-P
14:27:00  <dihedral> yes, that would make sense :-) but you would want to define it for each vehicle
14:27:07  <dihedral> rather than define it for each road type
14:28:20  <planetmaker> it would just work analoguously to railtypes: vehicles have already a road type (tram vs. road)
14:28:41  <planetmaker> no new concepts needed there at all
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14:29:00  <planetmaker> "just" fixing and defining all the loose ends on where roads interface with other stuff.
14:29:06  <planetmaker> Which are lots.
14:29:19  <planetmaker> even towns... which care not at all about rails
14:30:07  <peter1138> concrete 80km/h?
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14:30:25  <planetmaker> :-) I guess German highways are concrete...
14:31:17  <peter1138> hmm, how would you express "it's cheap but noisy" as a newgrf property? hehe
14:32:49  <planetmaker> well... it could have an effect on town growth if roads had a noise property
14:32:58  <planetmaker> or on LA rating
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14:37:58  <dihedral> yay - noise limit :-P
14:38:09  <dihedral> build this road type or an airport :-D
14:38:11  <dihedral> haah
14:39:08  <dihedral> and a small town starts off with bad roads? and the quality of the roads have an affect on the vehicles reliability?
14:39:10  <dihedral> :-P
14:39:33  <dihedral> and on the goods the vehicle transports
14:39:36  <dihedral> and thus on the pay
14:39:47  <dihedral> unless it transports milkshake
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15:14:15  <andythenorth> michi_cc: :) @22639
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15:26:53  <andythenorth> michi_cc: is there any buy menu window feedback on canal / sea speed?
15:27:02  <andythenorth> or I should just read the source? :P
15:27:37  <supermop> sea speed?
15:28:20  <michi_cc> andythenorth: There isn't for now, but TTDP hasn't either. I did considered it, but displaying a different speed depending on whether the depot is on sea or canal might be too confusing.
15:28:39  <andythenorth> I can add it manually, but it will be a bit odd
15:28:50  <andythenorth> default will say "speed: 16mph"
15:28:57  <andythenorth> then I'll add "canal speed: 14mph"
15:30:27  <supermop> shouldn't small boats go faster on the smooth water of a canal than on a rough speed?
15:30:44  <supermop> like an old-timey british canal boat
15:30:58  <andythenorth> that will be my next question :P
15:31:07  <andythenorth> which boats should go at what speeds where?
15:31:07  <michi_cc> supermop: Why do you think there are two props? :)
15:31:17  <supermop> neat
15:31:19  <andythenorth> but I have to go out now
15:31:39  <andythenorth> bbl
15:32:00  <supermop> rivers will be same as canal?
15:32:30  <michi_cc> Yeah, the NewGRF specs don't differentiate there.
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15:39:17  <supermop> i assume asking for littoral speeds is too hard?
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15:48:02  <Eddi|zuHause> a "lit-toral" is a torus shaped bed?
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15:51:01  <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> but then... I know that cobblestone's limit is definitely significantly higher than 50km/h :-P <-- that heavily depends on the quality of the road :p
15:51:23  <glx> <Eddi|zuHause> a "lit-toral" is a torus shaped bed? <-- nice one :)
15:54:01  <andythenorth> ok
15:54:07  <andythenorth> so how should ship speeds vary?
15:54:15  <andythenorth> FISH has three classes of boat
15:54:18  <andythenorth> river boats
15:54:23  <andythenorth> coastal vessels
15:54:40  <andythenorth> and boats where it really doesn't matter
15:55:08  <andythenorth> so are canals in game ship canals?  or boat canals?
15:55:17  <andythenorth> and is the sea deep, or shallow?
15:56:32  <planetmaker> I'd give the coastal vessels the same speed, but a higher speed for river vessels on rivers (if that's feasible)
15:56:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd make it like this: river ships: fast on rivers, very slow on ocean. ocean ships: fast on ocean, very slow on rivers. "in-between" ships: medium speed on either
15:56:43  <planetmaker> ^
15:56:47  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that's about what I thought too
15:57:03  <andythenorth> currently it will suck, because there are no rivers
15:57:14  <andythenorth> but the plan is good
15:57:23  <planetmaker> there are canals
15:57:27  <Eddi|zuHause> on rivers it's like: the larger the boat gets, the slower it must be
15:57:33  <planetmaker> and they're treated like rivers wrt speed
15:59:45  <supermop> littoral meaning area near coasts and estuaries
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16:06:29  <Chris_Booth> andythenorth: the issue I see with slow / fast boats is the actual dock, since it can't be both in the sea and in a river one class of ship will have to be slow
16:06:46  <Chris_Booth> or you will need to use 3 ship types
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16:07:55  <supermop> it shouldnt be a problem, docks in rivers would serve river boats primarily, and large ships docking there could reasonable expect to be slowed
16:08:00  <supermop> and vis-versa
16:09:15  <Chris_Booth> but will these ships not hold up other ships? or will it be the case as it is at the moment and they can just drive over each other?
16:09:25  <Lapland> I'm having trouble installing openttd on my ubuntu laptop. I thought I'd just figured everything out, but now when I try to run it it says that there aren't any valid language packs, even though there's a whole directory full of them in the same place the folder I downloaded put them.
16:09:26  <Eddi|zuHause> all ships should be slow while approaching a dock
16:10:02  <Eddi|zuHause> Lapland: you mixed language packs from differrent game versions, this is not possible
16:10:33  <supermop> and yes, currently there seems to be no way preventing ships driving over each other.  as long as stations can only have one dock
16:10:51  <Lapland> All right, then. I'll see what I can do about that...
16:11:15  <supermop> it would even be desirable to keep it that way
16:16:19  <Lapland> Eddi|zuHause: I tried clearing and refilling the language files; it didn't help.
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16:17:33  <Terkhen> why did you change the languages at all? the ones included with the version you downloaded are the ones you want
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16:17:41  <Lapland> I just feel like I'm making a huge mess, now- and I /didn't/.
16:17:51  <Terkhen> where did you download openttd?
16:18:59  <Lapland> Um... I guess it was a nightly binary. Maybe I'm forgetting to compile or some such.
16:19:13  <Terkhen> nightlies should have everything you need
16:19:41  <Terkhen> no clue then, for me it's just untar -> run :)
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16:25:05  <Ammler> Lapland: unpack the download in fresh location, do not overwrite existing install
16:35:56  <Lapland> Now I just need to figure out how to uninstall things...
16:39:32  <Ammler> delete the pack, done
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16:44:48  <Eddi|zuHause> "Holland builds most expensive section of highway in the world"
16:45:14  <Lapland> Article link?
16:45:46  <Lapland> I want to know how many kilometers they're putting on pontoons until they finish building windmills to pump out all the water.
16:49:05  <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/0,1518,772748,00.html <-- but it's in german
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17:22:31  <Wolf01> hello
17:29:36  <andythenorth> if I draw sandy shores for rivers, will the sky fall in?
17:29:43  <andythenorth> I think they look better
17:29:57  <andythenorth> if someone hates it, flood fill them to muddy green :P
17:33:12  <supermop> sounds good
17:33:43  <supermop> so long as all sea shores have sand, rivers might as well be sandy/muddy/gravelly
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17:38:12  <Ammler> no grassy shores are indeed nicer
17:40:26  <andythenorth> Ammler: is that a yes or a no to sand?
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17:41:00  <Ammler> more yes
17:41:11  <Ammler> sand is better as gras
17:41:28  <Ammler> sand is not best :-)
17:41:37  <Alberth> andythenorth: are you aware of smoke clipping problems with a dairy?
17:42:03  <Ammler> andythenorth: but I wont see you rivers anyway
17:42:18  <Ammler> or will you make a ogfx version too?
17:42:44  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22640 /trunk/src/lang/brazilian_portuguese.txt:
17:42:44  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:42:44  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 2 changes by Tucalipe
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17:48:24  <Alberth> andy got washed away by the river while placing sand :)
17:52:05  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: as if that stretch of highway ever gets finished ;)
17:52:36  * andythenorth will probably lose connectivity in a minute
17:52:40  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: call it the "Duke Nukem Highway" :p
17:52:54  <Rubidium> yeah, when it gets built it'll be terrible
17:53:23  <andythenorth> Alberth: the smoke clipping is a limitation of ottd
17:53:32  <andythenorth> the only fix is to move the chimney
17:53:47  <andythenorth> it glitches on a few industries
17:53:52  <andythenorth> it's annoying :)
17:53:59  <Alberth> so you are aware of it, and it is not your fault :)   ok
17:54:25  <andythenorth> I don't fancy moving the graphics around to fix it :|
17:54:45  <andythenorth> I could probably cheat by putting the smoke on another tile, and shifting the z a lot
17:55:00  <andythenorth> instead of shifting x and y of the smoke over the chimney tile
17:55:22  <Alberth> nah, that just hides the problem
17:55:23  <andythenorth> I suppose I could add it to the other 80 FIRS tickets :P
17:55:36  <Lapland> Nuke Nukem? Or Episode 3 Memorial Highway?
17:55:56  <Alberth> better add it to the few 1000 openttd bugs :)
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17:56:13  <andythenorth> Ammler: I won't do opengfx rivers
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17:57:39  <Ammler> then I should not care :-)
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18:49:40  * andythenorth commits crime of 'failing to make a decision'
18:50:05  <andythenorth> muddy green shores might look best for rivers
18:50:21  <andythenorth> I continued with sandy, but when more angles have it, it gets a bit....sandy
18:50:26  <andythenorth> :P
18:50:54  <Lapland> Which could be okay for deserts, but...
18:51:04  <andythenorth> any -1 for dark green mud?
18:55:16  <Lapland> Great, I think I broke Ubuntu by uninstalling OpenTTD the wrong way.
18:56:39  <supermop> greay rocks?
18:57:05  <Eddi|zuHause> Lapland: for how many days have you been using linux?
18:57:07  <Lapland> Isn't that what canals are already?
18:57:43  <Lapland> Eddi|zuHause: Several days, but I've mostly been doing things that aren't too complicated.
18:58:29  <andythenorth> using grey will leave minimum variation from canals
18:58:51  <supermop> more bumpy grey rocks?
18:58:59  <andythenorth> don't think it will work
18:59:14  <supermop> switch to rusty sheet-pile for canals?
18:59:15  <andythenorth> might have found a better route
18:59:22  <supermop> brown mud?
18:59:22  <andythenorth> sometimes forgetting reality helps
18:59:39  <andythenorth> imaging it's an early 90s pixel art game is helpful :P
18:59:50  <supermop> how do the ogfx waves work?
18:59:52  * andythenorth -> to the pixels
19:00:19  <planetmaker> supermop: palette animation
19:01:42  <opa> newest technology :P
19:03:10  <Alberth> opa: unheard of at current colour depths ;)
19:03:58  * Alberth waves hi to planetmaker
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19:10:53  * planetmaker waves also 'hi' @ Alberth :-)
19:12:18  * andythenorth prefers this version http://tt-foundry.com/misc/better_shores_xy.png
19:12:28  <andythenorth> not sandy, not rocky, not muddy
19:12:35  <andythenorth> just ...shores
19:13:07  <andythenorth> river banks aren't something that should be noticed
19:13:29  * andythenorth will finish those
19:14:26  <Alberth> it takes a bit getting used to, but grassy would be logical given all the other green tiles
19:15:04  <Alberth> s/would be/is/
19:15:17  <andythenorth> there isn't enough pixel space to draw details well
19:15:27  <andythenorth> just a couple of pixels to do a blend between terrain and water
19:15:39  <andythenorth> :)
19:15:43  <Alberth> that makes sense
19:15:57  <supermop> looks better than default already andy
19:16:12  <supermop> i think it is a logical way to show it
19:17:11  * andythenorth hopes it works with other terrains
19:17:45  <andythenorth> it's basically same as FIRS clay pit
19:17:45  <andythenorth> turns out I solved this once already :P
19:23:30  <supermop> maybe i should model some 32bpp sprites
19:23:35  <Lapland> Whenever you realize that you've solved a problem before in a case like this, you're always thrilled, because you're problem's not a problem any more- but then you have to hate yourself, too, for not thinking of it sooner
19:24:00  <supermop> i have a desire to draw some murdered out trucks
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19:30:10  <Chris_Booth> hello
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19:58:58  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Now that is a nice shore :)
20:00:19  <andythenorth> I think it's better :)
20:01:29  <maglev> so what 32bpp sprites do you guys suggest?
20:02:56  <supermop> some murdered out trucks that i havent yet drawn
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20:24:21  <andythenorth> there seem to be numerous river sprites in this sprite sheet that aren't used
20:24:49  <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/water-features/repository/entry/sprites/graphics/rivers/temperate.png
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20:29:32  <Rubidium> I guess the associated nfo might be more interesting; seems like some are for level 0 or something like that
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20:31:44  <Rubidium> oh, it's just one blob of sprites ?!?
20:33:30  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22641 /trunk/src/table/engines.h: -Fix (r22639): Warning about uninitialised fields.
20:34:10  <andythenorth> Rubidium: yeah, I'm guessing it's sourced from a decompiled grf
20:34:18  <andythenorth> I have split it into climates to be a bit more sane
20:34:52  <andythenorth> there are a lot of sprites that seem to be duplicate
20:35:01  <andythenorth> some are for river + coasts, but not all
20:36:13  <Rubidium> the duplication seems to be only really useful for the last 4 sprites (sloped ones)
20:36:20  <andythenorth> yup
20:36:40  <andythenorth> I couldn't find any spec on what's actually required for rivers
20:36:53  <Rubidium> neither can I
20:37:21  <andythenorth> what fun :)
20:37:34  <Rubidium> besides what openttd's code says
20:38:15  <andythenorth> there's always that :)
20:38:20  <andythenorth> is it canonical? :P
20:38:31  <Rubidium> anyhow, offsets (per slope) are flat: 0, se: 12, ne: 24, sw: 36, nw: 48
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20:39:05  <frosch123> there are 12 per slope
20:39:09  <frosch123> 4 borders
20:39:18  <Rubidium> and I reckon the sprites *after* the first 12 are just to make it look nice on all the other slopes you can build rivers on
20:39:24  <frosch123> 4 inner corners, 4 outer corners
20:42:41  <Rubidium> andythenorth: http://rbijker.net/openttd/screenshot.png http://rbijker.net/openttd/allslopes.scn
20:42:56  <andythenorth> ok cool
20:43:07  <andythenorth> my test scenario misses some cases
20:43:13  <andythenorth> thanks
20:50:56  <Wolf01> 'night
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20:51:37  <Terkhen> good night
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21:49:36  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22642 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Change: Disable the 'set parameters' button in the NewGRF GUI, if the GRF specifies to have no parameters and one would not be able to set any parameters anyway.
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