Log for #openttd on 17th July 2011:
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00:10:58  <frosch123> night
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00:38:57  <DarkM3nd3z> Hi :D
00:44:02  <DarkM3nd3z> ...
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08:02:40  <Terkhen> good morning
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08:15:16  <LordAro> mornings
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08:19:25  <Terkhen> hi LordAro
08:19:40  <LordAro> hai Terkhen :)
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08:20:04  <Terkhen> hi Alberth
08:20:13  <Alberth> hi
08:21:14  * Alberth considers doing a bit of tarfile creating today
08:21:47  <LordAro> ji ALberth
08:21:50  <LordAro> *hi
08:21:53  <LordAro> lol
08:31:26  <planetmaker> moin
08:33:52  <Alberth> moin
08:34:56  * planetmaker gives albert a tar file ;-)
08:34:56  <Alberth> stupid linux system, no tar(5) :(
08:35:27  <Alberth> good, an example :)
08:36:00  <planetmaker> you really need some? ;-)
08:36:47  <Alberth> I'd also be happy with some OpenTTD code for creating them :p
08:37:24  <planetmaker> he :-) I thought we have that already?
08:37:34  <planetmaker> Or do we just read them yet?
08:37:36  <Alberth> creating?
08:37:59  <Alberth> afaik it is read-only currently
08:38:00  <planetmaker> dowload content only writes binary without such knowledge?
08:38:37  <planetmaker> (just asking, I didn't look at that code)
08:38:50  <Alberth> don't know exactly, but wouldn't it just download data from the remote?
08:39:44  <planetmaker> probably
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08:57:02  <J4n> hello
08:57:39  <planetmaker> hi j4n
08:57:47  <J4n> how can i run more trains on 1 line
08:57:53  <J4n> i dont get it with the light signs
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08:58:30  <planetmaker> I suggest you read up on the signal guides
08:58:40  <J4n> i already did
08:58:56  <J4n> tbh its more confusing than helping :D
08:59:00  <J4n> or im too stupid
08:59:12  <planetmaker> and join MP servers and look and learn :-)
08:59:26  <J4n> mp server
09:00:25  <planetmaker> multiplayer
09:00:40  <J4n> ahh ok
09:00:45  <J4n> can i just watch too?
09:00:55  <planetmaker> of course
09:01:05  <J4n> how can i join :)
09:01:12  <planetmaker> but better is trying to build what you see :-)
09:02:10  <planetmaker> and what I usually recommend as reading
09:03:21  <J4n> ty
09:03:24  <planetmaker> if you use path signals: put a signal there where a train shall be allowed to stop
09:03:28  <planetmaker> that's all you gotta know
09:05:26  <J4n> do i have to build waiting slots for trains?
09:05:37  <J4n> that the other train can pass through
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09:06:42  <planetmaker> on a single piece of track of course only one train can be at a time.
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09:07:12  <J4n> ok good to know
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09:23:51  <LordAro> planetmaker: safely, at least :)
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10:38:30  <Wolf01> hello
10:38:51  <planetmaker> hi Wolf01
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10:51:43  <V453000> hello beautiful
10:53:32  <planetmaker> hi V453000
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10:55:32  <V453000> hu pm :)
10:58:38  <V453000> pm: question, if I draw something in "fire" pixels, what will happen? will it glow in game like fire does, or? seen here
10:58:56  <frosch123> use ttdviewer :)
10:59:08  <frosch123>
10:59:29  <V453000> sounds bloody awesome, thanks
11:05:28  <V453000> right, question number 2: how far of a terribly stupid idea is abusing the glowing water/fire/etc stuff on trains? :D
11:05:52  <Eddi|zuHause> very.
11:06:03  <frosch123> water effects are quite nice on firs
11:06:12  <frosch123> well, and if you want a rocket train ....
11:06:26  <V453000> I have rocket trains :P
11:07:05  <Eddi|zuHause> if you see fire coming out of the steam engine, you might be in back to the future 3 :p
11:07:29  <V453000> :D
11:07:49  <frosch123> the lighthouse blinking might also work on firs vehicles and other heavy stuff
11:07:57  <planetmaker> use those pixels which look best ;-)
11:08:02  <V453000> right :D
11:08:34  <Eddi|zuHause> some vehicles of GermanRV use red or yellow blinking pixels while at stations
11:08:46  <Eddi|zuHause> the yellow blinking looks weird though, as it is not 50/50
11:09:06  <planetmaker> typical broken blinking device ;-)
11:09:17  <planetmaker> service required more often :-P
11:09:18  <V453000> ok lets get psycho
11:11:48  <planetmaker> what're you up to, V453000?
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11:12:21  <Eddi|zuHause> "unrealistic train set" he said yesterday ;)
11:12:42  <planetmaker> ah :-)
11:12:54  * planetmaker loves un-realism :-)
11:13:09  <planetmaker> reality already has too much 'realism'
11:14:20  <V453000> something nuts
11:14:22  <planetmaker> apropos realism, Eddi|zuHause: what do you think of overhuemer's tries to convince you of using 22.5° angle steps instead of 15°?
11:14:34  <V453000> and when I say nuts I think you can believe me
11:14:38  <planetmaker> I'm not sure what I shall make of that, honestly
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11:14:41  <Eddi|zuHause> haven't looked at it yet
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11:15:23  <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm definitely not doing this before lunch ;)
11:15:29  <planetmaker> hehe
11:15:36  * planetmaker is having brunch ;-)
11:15:57  <Eddi|zuHause> don't you have brunch at like 10 o'clock? ;)
11:16:26  <planetmaker> I definitely don't have brunch before getting up from bed :-P
11:16:43  <planetmaker> or only on the _very_ rare occasion befor that ;-)
11:16:43  <frosch123> brunch is the meal between breakfast and lunch
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11:16:56  <planetmaker> between? In combination of, I thought
11:17:00  <frosch123> :p
11:17:28  <frosch123> shall i say between the second breakfast and the first lunch?
11:17:48  <frosch123> not to confuse with the snack at noon
11:18:12  <V453000> planetmaker: I am basically up to making a train set which has only one purpose: playability. With which is hand-in hand the fact that I am going to use my own values based on gameplay, not a single "real life counterpart" crap. ... So some futuristic or even not so futuristic, but still just "stuff what imagination brought" tends to be quite ... odd :)
11:18:47  <planetmaker> what defines "playability" for you?
11:19:06  <V453000> well for example that I get a new engine every 2 years
11:19:19  <V453000> that the vehicle stats make sense
11:19:23  <planetmaker> lool @ frosch123 :-)
11:19:27  <V453000> which is mainly it basically
11:19:36  <planetmaker> I didn't have the impression you were *such* a hungry person ;-)
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11:21:18  <planetmaker> hm... /me ponders whether "show linked images inline" is a good option for an IRC client
11:22:35  <frosch123> planetmaker: did you never read discworld?
11:23:02  <planetmaker> like 6 books. Then it became somewhat repetitive in the humor - pattern
11:23:46  <planetmaker> so I read some, but certainly only a small minority of the discwold novels ;-)
11:23:52  <frosch123> the wizards (including the wizzard) have a quite dense schedule of meals :)
11:24:25  <planetmaker> hm :-) I did not recall that - so probably a topic in one of the books I did not read ;-)
11:25:15  <frosch123> i hope you did not read the early ones, the first few are indeed not that good
11:25:24  <planetmaker> the thing I most remember is the uber-sharp scythe of the Grim Reaper ;-)
11:25:42  <planetmaker> as sharp that it ionizes the air around the edge :-P
11:25:46  <frosch123> the one sharpened with light?
11:25:53  <planetmaker> hm, possibly, yes
11:26:23  <planetmaker> and... might be that it were about the first ones. It's certainly like 10 ... 15 years ago that I read them
11:26:52  <planetmaker> though it was already then that there were more than just a hand full of disc world novels around
11:28:24  <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> not to confuse with the snack at noon <-- have you converted to hobbit-ism? ;)
11:29:12  <frosch123> true, they also have similiar rites
11:31:53  <planetmaker> :-)
11:32:10  <planetmaker> with all respect: both of you would not pass as hobits ;-)
11:32:17  <planetmaker> (nor myself actually)
11:32:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i could pass as gandalf ;)
11:32:49  <planetmaker> Boromir ;-)
11:33:04  <Eddi|zuHause> nah, i'd have to fight then...
11:33:31  <planetmaker> The worst fights were for Gandalf...
11:34:24  <Eddi|zuHause> but he did not have to rely on strength alone
11:37:48  <planetmaker> "thou shall not pass!" ;-)
11:38:28  <planetmaker> the best battle is the battle not fought
11:39:43  <frosch123>
11:40:24  <planetmaker> hehe :-)
11:40:27  <frosch123> does your inline function work?
11:42:32  <planetmaker> not with that one...
11:42:42  <planetmaker> but it worked with the newgrf wiki image earlier. Why ever
11:43:15  <frosch123> ah, i guess it would only work with
11:43:23  <frosch123> the other one has html stuff around
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11:44:41  <planetmaker> neither :-) But... not really important...
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12:05:13  <LordAro> V453000: how about adding the train from back to the future (3) to your trainset? with flames coming out of it when it reaches 88mph :)
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12:10:17  <frosch123> ottd has only red fire effects
12:11:16  <Eddi|zuHause> well, could one make a custom recolour-sprite-animation?
12:11:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean: return a different recolour sprite in each animation frame
12:12:16  <planetmaker> you could just use a recolour sprite for the animation colours
12:12:17  <Eddi|zuHause> recolour the steam puffs randomly ;)
12:21:46  <lugo-> Nyan Train
12:22:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what exactly oberhÃŒmer did, but these offsets are _not_ right
12:22:17  <planetmaker> hm... recolour sprites are probably used much too little ;-)
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12:27:55  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: you mean wagons should turn earlier?
12:28:11  <Eddi|zuHause> no, everything is aligned wrong...
12:28:27  <planetmaker> hm? In what way?
12:28:31  <Eddi|zuHause> the sprites don't even start at the beginning of the vehicle in normal views
12:29:00  <planetmaker> wrt bounding boxes? hm... yes
12:31:29  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not very convinced...
12:32:33  <planetmaker> ui... why does the A2 have 1HP power?
12:32:45  <planetmaker> makes for _very_ bad acceleration ;-)
12:32:55  <Eddi|zuHause> because somebody didn't fill out the value in the tracking table
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12:35:00  <planetmaker> :-)
12:36:14  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: suggestion for detect those vehicles with incomplete stats and don't write files for them - but generate a warning ouput line instead
12:36:54  <Eddi|zuHause> warning, probably, but rather fill out some random default values
12:37:20  <frosch123> hmm, someone in here who builds while paused regulary?
12:37:48  <frosch123> s/regulary/sometimes/
12:38:35  <MNIM> yes.
12:39:20  <frosch123> nice :) the explosions when removing something block my view... however it is not possible to animate them during pause due to the way they are implemented.
12:39:36  <frosch123> so i wonder what is better: do not spawn them when paused, or hide all effects when paused
12:39:52  * Alberth votes for the former
12:39:56  <frosch123> in the latter case they will pop up when pause is continued
12:40:18  <frosch123> though it also hides stuff started before the pausing started
12:40:21  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the latter. or modify the effects to start with a transparent sprite
12:40:40  <MNIM> I like eddi's last suggestion
12:41:11  <Alberth> although it may be nice to expose a newly build structure with a big explosion :p
12:41:16  <frosch123> yeah, that might work as well
12:41:51  <MNIM> a less hack-like solution like implementing explosions more like the buy/sell ka-chings would be even better, but a hack like that makes live considerably easier too without so much effort
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13:17:50  <narf0> Hi, Where to put and what files/dirs for openttd for symbian?
13:20:06  <planetmaker> you'd have to ask the person who compiles it for symbian. It's not an official port
13:22:03  <narf0> okay but maybe, do you know if a need the transport tycoon deluxe files or can i use the freeware ones?
13:23:00  <planetmaker> I'm quite sure you can use OpenGFX and friends
13:23:14  <planetmaker> except if the symbian port is like from the stone age
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13:24:20  <narf0> planetmaker okay, what would this error mean: "no available language packs" ?
13:24:42  <narf0> does it mean some files from lang or from data?
13:25:08  <LordAro> probably lang
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13:25:58  <planetmaker> narf0: it means that you're missing the language files. I.e. the person who supplied the the binary didn't supply a proper openttd bundle as s/he should have done
13:26:10  <narf0> funny, the person who made this wrote about this on a forum and he didnt gave any explanations. He said:
13:26:31  <narf0> "You will need to put original ttd data files in e:\openttd\data\ directory. Memory card is required."
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13:27:20  <narf0> planetmaker this binary works for people on the net (youtube videos including) :/
13:28:42  <Levent> any1 have a contact with Mega that real name is arjan, founder of clanmega and hosted clanmega CDIS server? which one from dutchland? im erally searching him theese days.
13:28:44  <planetmaker> narf0: probably they copied it from some other installation. A procedure which is strongly discouraged
13:33:54  <planetmaker> Levent: they seem to have gone into somewhat a hiding. I haven't (conciously) heard / read from clanmega anthing in quite a while
13:36:03  <planetmaker> have you tried the obvious like the e-mail etc found on their websites?
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13:49:20  <Levent> (our website) is no longer exists. and i dont have additional contact at the moment. but thanks. damn we was playing coolest openttd with coolest community :/ any CDIS running server you know?
13:49:49  <planetmaker> sorry, no
13:50:03  <planetmaker> I doubt even there's any around
13:51:10  <planetmaker> but the forum seems still to be online
13:51:33  <planetmaker> though interestingly I get a warning from my FF extension 'web of trust' that that page has a bad fame ;-)
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14:09:33  <peter1138> heh
14:09:37  <peter1138> CDIS?
14:09:56  <planetmaker> peter1138: cargodist + infra sharing
14:12:25  <narf0> planetmaker I would like to speak to the person which made the symbian port, he's nick is Wolf. Do you know him maybe?
14:19:13  <planetmaker> there's sometimes a wolf here. But I've no clue whether he's the author or not
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14:26:57  <narf0> How can this be so complicated for me yet nearly everyone interested on this forum has runned this game without no problems
14:28:46  <planetmaker> did you try to just copy the files to the required paths yourself?
14:30:30  <Ammler>  "... without no problems"
14:31:13  <planetmaker> :-D
14:44:20  <narf0> *without problems
14:45:21  <narf0> planetmaker as I said before the author didn't say about where to place stuff
14:47:46  <Eddi|zuHause> if the binary creator did not screw up things too much, the directory structure from the readme should apply
14:52:02  <narf0> it's not like the one in readme because openttd.cfg supose to be in the same dir as data and gm
14:52:25  <narf0> okay so i understand why is this not supported
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14:59:39  <Ammler> narf0: there are different possible locations for the cfg
15:00:00  <narf0> Ammler yeah i know, okay i have no idea how shuld this be setup
15:00:54  <narf0> as i said, wolf wasn't so kind to explain installation procedure i more than a few words.
15:01:16  <Ammler> what error do you get, when you start openttd
15:01:50  <narf0> either that there are no lang files or no sound files, and all's in place
15:02:15  <Ammler> where is opengfx?
15:02:42  <narf0> im using the files from the dos game
15:02:53  <narf0> i thought it will wokr then
15:03:04  <Ammler> try with opengfx first
15:03:27  <narf0> okay i'll start by reinstaling the app in the phone.
15:07:55  <narf0> Ammler so as i have the game installed on linux, just copy whole /usr/share/openttd/data ?
15:08:34  <Ammler> no
15:08:40  <narf0> (i have openttd installed + opengfx + opensfx + open midi music)
15:08:41  <Ammler> use the zip
15:08:47  <narf0> what zip?
15:09:09  <Ammler> I assume, it is linked on the symbian thread?
15:09:35  <narf0> theres no zip there
15:09:36  <narf0>
15:09:57  <planetmaker> @ports
15:09:57  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
15:09:59  <narf0> there's only symbian instalation package file (sis)
15:10:32  <Ammler> openttd.sisx
15:10:57  <narf0> are the snd files optional
15:11:18  <narf0> ok by the way, the installer created 'data' for me with some stuff
15:11:25  <narf0> only left gm empty
15:11:33  <narf0> gm is optional?
15:12:03  <Ammler> "You will need to put original ttd data files in e:\openttd\data\ directory. Memory card is required."
15:12:04  <planetmaker> the only thing additionally needed is a graphics base set
15:12:39  <Ammler> but I assume, you could also use ogfx
15:12:56  <Ammler> (but unpacked)
15:14:07  <Ammler> hmm, is symbian dos based?
15:14:17  <Ammler> or how come that strange path?
15:14:43  <Ammler> and btw., it is not the same wolf which is on irc
15:14:57  <narf0> i have data dir with files: openttdd.grf, openttdw.grf, opntitle.dat, orig_dos_de.obg, orig_dos.obg, orig_dos.obs, oig_win.obg, orig_win.obs
15:15:00  <narf0> enough?
15:15:12  <planetmaker> no
15:15:18  <narf0> symbian is based on a os called epoch
15:15:21  <planetmaker> you're missing a graphics base set
15:15:29  <narf0> which is what?
15:15:39  <planetmaker> OpenGFX or TTD-original
15:16:29  <MNIM> why have they not included opengfx standard?
15:16:48  <Ammler> that would double the package size
15:17:23  <narf0> opengfx.obg opensfx.obs ogfxt_toyland.grf ogfxi_logos.grf no_sound.obs ogfx1_base.grf ogfxc_arctic.grf ogfxe_extra.grf ogfxh_tropical.grf
15:17:26  <narf0> these?
15:17:33  <MNIM> well yeah, but 50% package with 0% functionality is a 100% waste
15:17:47  <Ammler> and then others ask why isn't OpenSFX packed in, that would trible the size
15:17:50  <Alberth> more like triple or quadruple
15:18:01  <glx> opengfx won't work for this version I think
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15:18:16  <MNIM> you don't need the sfx, but you will need gfx
15:18:17  <glx> clue being openttdd and openttdw
15:18:18  <Alberth> MNIM: but most people update from the previous version, and they don't need the graphics
15:18:46  <Ammler> glx: that is quite far apart :-)
15:18:50  <narf0> okay what should i copy then?
15:19:15  <MNIM> oh wait, I think Im getting too used to linux
15:19:32  <MNIM> I was gonna say "yeah duh, just add it to the dependencies"
15:19:44  <Ammler> where it is
15:20:00  <narf0> maybe this:  trg1r.grf  trgcr.grf  trghr.grf  trgir.grf  trgtr.grf ?
15:20:03  <Ammler> else you should report that to your distro package maintainer
15:20:18  <MNIM> it's optional in my buntu, I think
15:20:34  <Ammler> it should be at least recommend
15:20:54  <glx> narf0: and trg* yes
15:20:55  <Alberth> narf0: those are copyrighted
15:21:18  <MNIM> well, so is opengfx. ;)
15:21:30  <glx> or opengfx but not the latest version
15:21:33  <Ammler> glx: support for opengfx is in since 0.7? openttd.grf is in 1.2 only?
15:21:49  <narf0> Alberth well cool dude, so I'll copy the opengfx ones right?
15:22:00  <MNIM> Hmmmmh.
15:22:03  <glx> Ammler: openttdd and openttdw (before it was replaced by extra)
15:22:03  <MNIM> what do you thinK?
15:22:06  <Alberth> you make me happy
15:22:13  <MNIM> should I watch james bond or LOTR?
15:23:48  <narf0> what are music files?
15:23:58  <narf0> midis?
15:23:59  <Ammler> glx: replaced by extra?
15:24:21  <narf0> ok i know
15:24:39  <Ammler> openttdd.grf and w is replaced by openttd.grf (always use dos)
15:24:39  <glx> there was a dos and windows version for extra (openttdd.grf and openttdw.grf)
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15:25:56  <narf0> Do .gm files go to data directory or gm directory?
15:26:01  <glx> in gm
15:26:31  <narf0> thanks
15:27:44  <planetmaker> glx: and now it's called just openttd.grf ;-)
15:28:28  <glx> right, but maybe some stuff was added/changed after the dos/windows merge
15:28:48  <planetmaker> quite certainly
15:28:59  <narf0> okay thanks for help everyone, guess I'll have to play on my netbook.
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15:29:16  <glx> so a recent ogfx could fail for an older openttd version
15:29:44  <planetmaker> no, not really
15:29:50  <planetmaker> why should it?
15:30:06  <glx> I say could
15:30:17  <planetmaker> well, why?
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15:30:34  <planetmaker> the base set definitions didn't change and OpenTTD ignores unknown action5 sprites
15:30:54  <planetmaker> that has nothing to do with the openttdw / openttdd change
15:31:02  <planetmaker> which only affects users of the TTD base set
15:31:25  <V453000>  \o/
15:31:47  <narf0> lol the game loaded Oo
15:31:57  <glx> so it works
15:32:09  <glx> if you see intro it's ok
15:32:58  <planetmaker> the important change between 0.7.x and 1.0.x is the introduction of base sound sets (and music sets), thus is not needed for 1.0.0 and later
15:33:31  <narf0> once again i'm learning the architecture of something just to run it :D
15:33:52  <narf0> Not to mention i learned how is midi working on linux to have music :)
15:35:02  <Rubidium> any proper linux distribution installs everything needed when you install openttd via their package manager
15:35:46  <narf0> nope
15:35:50  <narf0> archlinux
15:36:17  <Rubidium> so it's not one that's done properly
15:36:18  <narf0> the whole midi thing (150+ MB) is not a dependency i guess
15:36:48  <narf0> It's actually one of the best distributions.
15:38:06  <narf0> It's just universal so nothing is built in. On ubuntu you also need to install the midi soft syntetiser
15:39:21  <Rubidium> narf0: Gentoo is the one where nothing is built in
15:39:57  <Rubidium> e.g. for archlinux openttd you still need to get e.g. libicu (which is like 20+ MiB)
15:40:30  <narf0> Rubidium Arch too, from the start it has the kernel, modules, startup scripts, some development tools, basic stuff like networking tools
15:40:36  <narf0> bare bones
15:40:59  <narf0> Rubidium i didnt need libicu
15:41:04  <Rubidium> but to install openttd on archlinux you still need to install icu
15:41:16  <narf0> I didnt notice
15:41:17  <Rubidium> or at least if you take archlinux's OpenTTD binary
15:42:04  <narf0> Depends On     : libpng  sdl  icu  fontconfig  lzo2  hicolor-icon-theme desktop-file-utils
15:42:16  <narf0> oh, yep, there we have it
15:42:58  <narf0> of cource i have the binary distribution, thats way quicker than compiling :)
15:43:00  <Rubidium> in Debian/Ubuntu it would recommend opengfx and opensfx so they are (generally) installed as well, but you can choose to not install them
15:43:19  <narf0> so is on arch
15:43:26  <narf0> Depends On     : libpng  sdl  icu  fontconfig  lzo2  hicolor-icon-theme desktop-file-utils
15:43:27  <Rubidium> so why doesn't it make use of it?
15:43:39  <narf0> Optional Deps  : openttd-opengfx: free graphics openttd-opensfx: free soundset
15:43:56  <narf0> it does it does, im using it
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15:45:19  <Rubidium> then why all the discussion about when to install those things?
15:45:33  <narf0> what discusion?
15:46:27  <Rubidium> e.g. the listing of a number of files and asking whether it's enough
15:46:40  <narf0> i was talking about symbian port
15:46:52  <narf0> i have bi problems with the linux version'
15:46:58  <narf0> *no
15:47:32  <Rubidium> isn't that ancient?
15:47:49  <narf0> What?
15:47:54  <Rubidium> the symbian port
15:48:12  <narf0> It is.
15:48:29  <narf0> I was looking for some fun things to do with my nokia
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15:52:41  <narf0> The game's fairly playable, it's a little hard with this low resolution though (320x240)
15:55:47  <planetmaker> with new(er) versions that'd be a problem with the newgrf config dialogue
15:55:57  <planetmaker> and the multiplayer join dialogue
15:56:36  <narf0> it doesnt support multiplayer
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15:58:16  <narf0> nope it's unplayable, waste of time and battery :
15:58:19  <narf0> :)
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16:06:23  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22670 /trunk/src/landscape.cpp: -Change: Do not spawn explosion effects when bulldozing in paused mode. They block the view.
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16:15:06  <andythenorth> so 'normal' players can't change grf parameters during gameplay?
16:15:14  <Eddi|zuHause> yep
16:16:04  <andythenorth> hmm
16:16:23  <andythenorth> that means (e.g.) if you find HEQS running costs are too high, you just lose your game :P
16:16:29  <andythenorth> or can't use HEQS in it
16:16:40  <andythenorth> maybe these cost parameters are a flawed idea
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16:17:52  <andythenorth> costs seem to be an area beset with difficulties
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16:29:39  <planetmaker> they aren't a bad idea. But they should be balanaced against default vehicles
16:29:59  <andythenorth>  I did think of working out some kind of baselines
16:30:01  <planetmaker> then a one-time setting of base costs solves any issue instead of having the player configure it for every newgrf specifically
16:30:14  <andythenorth> in cost-per-ton-per-speedunit
16:30:25  <planetmaker> base line = default vehicles.
16:30:40  <planetmaker> anything else is not a base line really, but yet another "my idea on costs rulez" thing
16:30:47  <andythenorth> hmm
16:31:07  <andythenorth> it's quite unsatisfactory at the moment.
16:31:20  <andythenorth> but at least better than when every grf could mess with every other grf :)
16:31:35  <planetmaker> note: I don't say that default cost balance is better than any other. But it's there and it's a kind of common standard
16:31:49  <planetmaker> And I only argue for default settings to match them
16:32:01  <planetmaker> players being able to choose differently... probably a good idea
16:33:20  <planetmaker> But I'd like indeed one global switch to adjust price levels
16:33:44  <planetmaker> actually... within one grf the cost-to-performance balance you just stated might still make sense
16:34:02  <planetmaker> as it surely can be adjusted to default vehicle levels
16:34:52  <andythenorth> I would have thought so
16:35:04  <andythenorth> costs are already just a ratio, not actual cost
16:35:30  <andythenorth> maybe we should peg it to the same measures used for the cargo payment graphs
16:35:48  <andythenorth> it would need to be factored for flat vs. terrain
16:35:49  <andythenorth> that is tricksy
16:36:43  <planetmaker> Why would vehicle costs need to consider the terrain?
16:36:52  <planetmaker> That sounds like at least one level of over-engineering
16:36:54  <andythenorth> they don't
16:36:58  <planetmaker> ok :-)
16:37:13  <andythenorth> I was thinking about cost-per-ton-per-speedunit
16:37:21  <andythenorth> but speedunit varies by slope
16:37:34  <planetmaker> sounds awefully complicated
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16:37:46  <planetmaker> especially as it fails as soon as people change the slope ingame ;-)
16:38:21  <planetmaker> or maybe already when changed away from default prior to start - not sure whether that variable can be newgrf-read
16:38:30  <andythenorth> your basic RL transport cost is usually expressed in terms of cost-per-tonmile
16:38:41  <andythenorth> but you also need to consider the ruling grade on the route
16:38:52  <andythenorth> which defines the hp-per-ton required
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16:39:10  <andythenorth> and then you'll get a transit time for the route, which matters for time-sensitive cargo
16:39:19  <andythenorth> I am thinking about charts, not setting costs now :)
16:39:42  <andythenorth> trying to think how to compare vehicles *across* different sets
16:39:43  <planetmaker> ok... and the issue you try to solve or visualize?
16:39:50  <planetmaker> ah, ok
16:40:11  <andythenorth> so is HEQS dump truck better or worse than eGRVTs highway truck etc
16:40:20  <andythenorth> probably way too detailed for gameplay
16:40:39  <planetmaker> well, there's two things: purchase price / vehicle lifetime; cargo price * capacity / running costs * speed
16:40:43  <planetmaker> or something like that
16:40:51  <andythenorth> yup
16:41:49  <planetmaker> one might factor in also refittability. Track type (--> infrastructure costs)
16:42:32  <Eddi|zuHause> infrastructure costs heavily depend on the amount of vehicles
16:43:21  <supermop> well if heqs lets you drive on cheaper roads, they should cost more. but at present that's not possible
16:43:43  <planetmaker> why should they cost more?
16:43:47  <planetmaker> they're slow
16:44:27  <supermop> those big bumpy tires
16:44:32  <planetmaker> the difficulty in balancing things is that it's not a simple two-point scaling issue
16:44:43  <andythenorth> it's n dimensional
16:44:45  <andythenorth> :P
16:44:52  <planetmaker> quite so, yes
16:45:02  <andythenorth> and varies by every combination of grfs a player might want
16:45:08  <andythenorth> plus their taste for difficulty
16:45:34  <planetmaker> also. Though the taste for difficulty can IMHO be adjusted by other grfs and means than the vehicle grfs themselves
16:45:41  <planetmaker> and should actually
16:46:22  <andythenorth> maybe Oz Trans has it right with can world
16:46:23  <andythenorth> :P
16:46:51  <planetmaker> well, who cares?
16:48:13  * andythenorth does
16:48:21  <andythenorth> somewhat
16:49:16  <planetmaker> IMHO the last statement made clear again that it's better to not care ;-)
16:49:21  <planetmaker> (of his)
16:49:44  <planetmaker> and that all the work put into that set will be mostly wasted work
16:50:13  <andythenorth> hmm
16:50:17  <narf0> Can I rotate in ttd?
16:50:23  <andythenorth> are we going to take over eGRVTS?
16:50:31  <narf0> i mean in 90 deg steps
16:50:32  <andythenorth> the license allows
16:50:37  <andythenorth> and it's been broken too long
16:51:05  <planetmaker> andythenorth: I don't think that'll be an issue. Zephyris certainly would not mind. Just ask him
16:51:13  <planetmaker> He'll be helpful and glad, I guess
16:51:15  <andythenorth> I already did :)
16:51:18  <planetmaker> ok :-)
16:51:21  <andythenorth> it would need converting to nml
16:51:32  <planetmaker> he :-P
16:51:46  <andythenorth> I am not maintaining raw, uncommented nfo :P
16:52:05  <planetmaker> doesn't he have commented sources?
16:52:18  <andythenorth> nope
16:52:25  <planetmaker> :-(
16:52:26  <andythenorth> he prefers raw
16:52:37  <andythenorth> use yexo's conversion script :P
16:53:23  <planetmaker> that'd be a way, surely. Though it might be easier to re-code it from scratch
16:53:47  <planetmaker> and just using the real sprites
16:53:58  <planetmaker> does he have at least the single sprites in single graphics files?
16:54:23  <planetmaker> *real sprites
16:54:49  <andythenorth> not sure about that :)
16:54:58  <andythenorth> grf2html can make them
16:55:07  <planetmaker> right :-)
16:55:20  <planetmaker> but that makes one file for each sprite
16:55:29  <planetmaker> which might be a lot. Or do I mis-remember here?
16:55:37  <andythenorth> it would be a lot :)
16:55:58  <planetmaker> actually... if you dig in OpenGFX sources - you'll find the whole sprites in there :-P
16:56:19  <planetmaker> I got permission to fill in the remaining (toyland) vehicles from egrvts ;-)
16:56:24  <planetmaker> and made liberal use of that
16:57:25  <planetmaker> hm, still there: sprites/png/egrvts.png ;-)
16:57:51  <planetmaker> adding the whole png was easier than cutting everything
17:00:13  <planetmaker> let's say: I'd be all for an update of egrvts. But personally I can't commit to that project now
17:00:27  <andythenorth> me neither :P
17:00:51  <planetmaker> :-)
17:02:31  <planetmaker> andythenorth: you keep your psds in your project in a separate dir, right? Which is not a sub-dir of src or sprites?
17:02:41  <andythenorth> usually /graphics or such
17:02:52  <andythenorth> or /graphics_sources
17:03:36  <planetmaker> hm, ok. I guess that can be made configurable
17:07:10  <Ammler> [18:58] <andythenorth> grf2html can make them <-- not that easy, if grf is build with -c
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17:11:05  <Hellaciouss> hey guys what's up with helicopters? why they so slow?
17:11:34  <planetmaker> super-sonic helicopters are not possible
17:11:45  <Hellaciouss> erm
17:11:49  <Hellaciouss> that's not what I mean
17:12:03  <Hellaciouss> why are 80mph trains running nearly twice as fast as a 200mph heli
17:12:14  <planetmaker> because you set the plane speed factor to 1/4?
17:12:35  <planetmaker> look in the adv. settings for that under vehicles
17:13:08  <planetmaker> 1/4 might be the default to discourage the use of the money-press aircraft a bit in comparison to the other transport types
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17:14:57  <Hellaciouss> hmm, would it be possible to seperate helis from planes when it comes to that option?
17:15:25  <planetmaker> in principle yes. But why? They're just as simple as planes ;-)
17:15:47  <planetmaker> but currently it's not possible
17:16:02  <J4n> why elis disappear after a time
17:16:05  <J4n> h
17:16:10  <planetmaker> it would need someone to write a patch to that end
17:16:18  <J4n> i had a huge infrstructure with heliports
17:16:24  <planetmaker> J4n: 'just because'. It's TTD default
17:16:31  *** mikegrb_ [~michael@2600:3c00::2:2001] has joined #openttd
17:16:35  <planetmaker> use an aircraft grf which changes that
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17:16:46  <planetmaker> like av8
17:17:56  <planetmaker> cets: update from r39 to r45 done (374 warnings) - <-- @ Eddi|zuHause ;-)
17:18:18  <planetmaker> seems we have work to do in that respect
17:18:34  <Eddi|zuHause> aye, it's kinda spammy with the incomplete swiss and austrian engines
17:18:36  <planetmaker> or JVassie especially wrt SBB
17:18:44  <planetmaker> :-D
17:25:43  *** mikegrb_ is now known as mikegrb
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17:42:05  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22671 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt korean.txt polish.txt):
17:42:05  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:42:05  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: czech - 4 changes by Harlequin
17:42:05  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: korean - 5 changes by telk5093
17:42:05  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: polish - 7 changes by wojteks86
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18:09:52  * andythenorth had 48 hrs away from internets, and is thinking of repeating it :P
18:10:38  <frosch123> it looked rather like 67 minutes to me
18:13:29  <andythenorth> well maybe prior to that :P
18:14:32  * andythenorth needs to draw those annoying river shores :|
18:17:25  <planetmaker> weren't they like 'done'?
18:18:45  <Ammler> andythenorth:  is never "done" :-)
18:19:06  <andythenorth> I didn't do the ones for rivers appearing / disappearing into slopes
18:19:19  <andythenorth> it's another 16 sprites
18:19:27  <andythenorth> all need drawing with rocks and such
18:19:36  * andythenorth plays dicewars instead
18:24:01  <planetmaker> andythenorth: are you sure those sprites are needed at all?
18:24:17  <andythenorth> last time discussed, the answer was "yes"
18:24:29  <andythenorth> apparently it's valid to have rivers on slopes :P
18:25:30  <Ammler> I would rather like diagonal rivers :-P
18:25:42  <andythenorth> Ammler: I am prepared to draw those
18:25:46  <andythenorth> without them, rivers suck
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18:38:22  * andythenorth considers playing the game
18:39:44  <opa> whou, someone actually *plays* the game there, not just developes something for it ;)
18:39:54  <andythenorth> I keep losing
18:40:03  <andythenorth> last three games, bankrupt :(
18:40:13  <andythenorth> not sure how to win
18:41:04  * andythenorth considers setting costs to 'low'
18:41:07  <andythenorth> seems like cheating
18:42:01  <narf0> bye
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18:42:24  * andythenorth plays YACD, TAI, UKRS 2
18:42:31  <andythenorth> the rules are 'PAX only'
18:42:38  <andythenorth> but I can only survive with coal
18:45:20  <planetmaker> calls for a change in the rules ;-)
18:45:38  <planetmaker> though TAI might be the crucial issue
18:46:16  <planetmaker> and... RVs might help ;-)
18:46:49  <andythenorth> no good RVs in 1890 :(
18:47:26  <planetmaker> :-)
18:47:40  * frosch123 plays "make the inhabitants of rÃŒsselsbrÃŒcken burst due to too many sweets and drinks"
18:47:42  <planetmaker> *that* might be the main issue then
18:47:49  <planetmaker> hehe
18:50:39  <andythenorth> ooh
18:50:42  <andythenorth> FIRS nightly is broken :)
18:50:49  <andythenorth> brewery is producing ENSP
18:51:01  <andythenorth> from stone, fruit and grain
18:51:08  <andythenorth> how excitink
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18:54:27  * V453000 gives frosch123 respect for playing the almighty and awesome TOYLAND :)
18:55:50  <frosch123> since ogfx i have to catch up with all the years not being able to play it :)
18:56:23  * andythenorth gives up trying to play the game :P
19:08:30  * LordAro always liked the toylands 'Maddogs toyshop' (or whatever it's called)
19:08:31  * V453000 takes all the respect back when seeing replacing the amazing artwork of original toyland with opengfx
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19:15:42  <supermop> the brewery makes beer, which makes miners work harder?
19:16:06  <frosch123> V453000: why? the fizzy drink factory and toy factory are a lot nicer in ogfx
19:16:24  <V453000> 100% disagree
19:16:41  <V453000> zero detail, just like in majority of opengfx
19:17:07  <supermop> ttd gfx are too noisey
19:17:23  <V453000> but very detailed
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19:21:58  <V453000> anyway, I have a question: is it possible to make an articulated wagon that would be 1 tile long and bend in the middle into 2 parts?
19:22:31  <frosch123> yes
19:22:47  <V453000> * I meant half tile long ... just like "standard" wagons
19:22:59  <frosch123> yes
19:23:08  <V453000> :) tthanks
19:24:09  <frosch123> it's interesting that you unrealistic approach results in short bendy wagons, while the realism guys want long non-bendy wagons :p
19:24:30  <V453000> I dont care about any real, just considering what would be useful
19:24:50  <V453000> I want to have all wagons long 0.5 tiles because other lengths tend to have various errors with depot counters etc
19:25:07  <V453000> resulting in quite unpredictable and sad issues with curve lengths and so on
19:25:20  <V453000> but at the same time I think it would be cute to have the wagons shorter
19:25:27  <V453000> so something like the "double" wagon would fit
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19:25:54  <V453000> plus shorter wagons = nicer look when trains are turning :)
19:26:32  <frosch123> that's not necessarily true as long as that specific fs task is open
19:26:56  <V453000> I had a feeling like it is rather hardly fixable
19:27:22  <frosch123> currently 4/8 wagons turn around the spot at the back, not their center
19:27:40  <frosch123> sure it is fixable, savegame conversion is the hard part
19:27:49  <V453000> mhm :)
19:27:56  <V453000> but still
19:28:07  <V453000> having all wagons 0.5 tile long makes it just nice and simple
19:28:38  <V453000> when I play with a train set that has shorter wagons, I literally _never_ know how many wagons to place there so I just click until I overflow the desired train length and then remove one wagon
19:29:14  <V453000> until it just hits for example 3.0 which does not happen always x.x
19:32:03  <Ammler> I also prefer adjacent wagons instead 1tile wagon
19:32:36  <Ammler> it looks like a nice feature, but not sure, if it improves game style
19:35:18  <V453000> it wouldnt change anything really
19:35:30  <V453000> I would just feel like it is more comfortable to play with simplier values
19:43:07  * andythenorth loses dicewars
19:52:36  * andythenorth loses dicewars
19:55:13  * andythenorth loses dicewars
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19:56:24  <V453000> lol :)
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19:58:11  * andythenorth loses dicewars
19:58:27  * andythenorth is fed up of dicewars
19:58:35  <MNIM> you loose at life!
20:06:13  <andythenorth> hmm
20:06:50  <andythenorth> planetmaker: do you have time to confirm the FIRS cargos bug?
20:07:01  <andythenorth> from reading the code, I can't see any cause of it
20:13:16  <planetmaker> what's the "firs cargo bug"?
20:13:47  <andythenorth>
20:15:44  <planetmaker> maybe a result of wrong replacement rules
20:15:56  <planetmaker> in either industries or industry tiles
20:16:10  <andythenorth> I read the code for some affected industries
20:16:13  <andythenorth> it looks correct
20:16:17  <andythenorth> I must miss something
20:16:39  <planetmaker> also for the tiles?
20:18:27  <andythenorth> hmm
20:18:51  <andythenorth> the tiles look correct too
20:19:33  <andythenorth> maybe it's a YACD bug
20:19:38  * andythenorth tests trunk
20:20:20  <andythenorth> present also present in trunk
20:21:00  <planetmaker> hm... I have uncommited but faulty changes locally ;-)
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20:28:12  <planetmaker> andythenorth: confirmed. Looks all bogus
20:28:32  <andythenorth> I can't see why
20:28:44  <andythenorth> looking at the brewery - all cargos look correct
20:28:53  <andythenorth> looking at the cargos, definitions look ok
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20:33:12  <planetmaker> hm... recycling depot doesn't accept or produce *anything*
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20:43:44  <planetmaker> andythenorth: recycling depot (only) produced recyclables?
20:43:49  <andythenorth> yes
20:43:51  <planetmaker> (or rather: should)
20:43:54  <planetmaker> ok. hm
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20:53:27  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I can't see it :)
20:53:32  <andythenorth> the bug
20:53:36  <andythenorth> in the code :P
20:55:00  * andythenorth -> bed time
20:55:03  <andythenorth> good night
20:55:28  <planetmaker> g'night. I don't see it either
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20:57:55  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, there are two approaches now: a) patch the articulated callback to allow higher engine IDs, or making the articulated parts independent from the front vehicle, and using a 60+ variable (that i already implemented) to check the front vehicle id from the articulated part
20:59:33  <Eddi|zuHause> the second variant means we have one or more special articulated vehicles that have huge varaction2 chains to select the graphics
21:01:10  <frosch123> <- maybe i should just commit that :p
21:02:09  <frosch123> oh crap, confused the patches
21:02:25  <frosch123> the articulated one actually depends on the version bump
21:03:02  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean the one that comes after the dbset release? :p
21:03:28  <frosch123> it's 30
21:03:32  <frosch123> but it needs the bump
21:04:30  <Eddi|zuHause> you could make a misc grf flag and allow 14 bits vehicle id in the articulated callback, moving the "reverse" bit to bit 15
21:04:40  <Eddi|zuHause> then it doesn't need a bump
21:06:39  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure how useful that will actually be, since there's still 2 bits of the 16 bit vehicle id that can't be returned
21:07:17  <frosch123> pff, you cannot switch directly to animation frames 0xfd to 0xff either
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21:08:35  <frosch123> the grf specs are full of special values which restrict the total range of something more general
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21:08:58  <frosch123> though they are no real restrictions
21:11:02  <Eddi|zuHause> [Di Jan 30 2007] [23:02:22] <Eddi|zuHause2>	newgrfs sound like some dirty hack that then gets abused as much as possible
21:11:35  <Eddi|zuHause> this is probably more true than ever :p
21:11:36  <frosch123> well, the roots are a dirty hack that abused ttd memory locations as much as possible
21:12:07  <frosch123> store this value at that memory location, and the vehicle will be faster
21:12:12  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but with the increased flexibility of openttd, the abuses just got bigger :p
21:13:10  <frosch123> well yes, it has always been the goal to add abstract generic stuff, which can be used for whatever the author comes up with
21:13:25  <frosch123> instead of a few presets and then coding everything in ottd
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21:18:16  <Eddi|zuHause> apparently something happened right now...
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21:19:09  * frosch123 concludes the world has not ended then
21:20:00  <Eddi|zuHause> looks like japan defeated the USA... so something close ;)
21:23:26  <frosch123> night
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21:23:52  <Terkhen> good night
21:33:59  <planetmaker> g'night Terkhen & all others
21:37:25  <peter1138>
21:37:32  <peter1138> i think that needs some kind of explanation
21:39:45  * Rubidium wonders whether that's one of those Japanese text-to-speech "singers"
21:41:14  <peter1138> vocaloid, so i guess so
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22:44:20  <Eddi|zuHause> "Microsoft developer K. Y. Srinivasan leads the list of contributors to the linux kernel 3.0"
22:44:26  <Eddi|zuHause> so the world DID end?
22:45:11  *** valhallasw [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:56:45  <__ln__> besides that, even Microsoft is ahead of Canonical on that list.
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23:22:01  <Eddi|zuHause> wtf? traffic light suggestion: "please allow placing no traffic lights"?!?
23:23:38  <supermop> not allowed!
23:23:46  <supermop> you must place traffic lights
23:24:29  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the suggestion was like "when placing traffic light, place only stop signs in 'rural' areas"
23:24:37  <Eddi|zuHause> which kinda defeats the point
23:26:27  <supermop> hmm
23:26:54  <supermop> i guess you could use signs to force vehicles to yield?
23:27:23  <supermop> not sure it it would make a difference in the game
23:27:36  <supermop> i guess it would look cute
23:28:32  <supermop> i think that would be better handled with roadtypes: vehicle entering faster road from slower road  yields to vehicles already on faster road
23:28:42  <supermop> or
23:29:12  <supermop> no gameplay effect, but draw yield or stop signs at junctions of different road types
23:29:30  <Eddi|zuHause> there is absolutely no concept of "yielding" in the game
23:29:39  <supermop> yeah
23:29:54  <supermop> im not sure if it would even help if there were
23:31:08  <supermop> i guess if you had realistic acceleration and roadtypes, you might not want a vehicle to pull out at 10 mph onto a 60mph highway, causing the vehicle behind to brake heavily
23:31:21  <supermop> but thats so far off from what we have now
23:32:06  <supermop> better to have road grfs draw fake stop signs that do nothing
23:33:41  <supermop> or draw traffic lights that look like stop signs but behave like lights?
23:34:00  <supermop> i dont really care too much about the issue
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