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Log for #openttd on 14th August 2011:
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00:09:28  <Sacro> Should you be able to use rcon to move clients into passworded companies?
00:10:51  *** lessthanthree [lt3@d64-180-56-85.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd
00:12:35  <Sacro> @seen Bjarni
00:12:36  <DorpsGek> Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 19 weeks, 6 days, 0 hours, 50 minutes, and 32 seconds ago: <Bjarni> thanks
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00:37:43  <Uncle> hi guys
00:38:19  <Uncle> what do you think about this station? https://p.twimg.com/AWxHRg6CQAMU2NV.png
00:38:52  <Uncle> trains can use all 4 platforms in both directions :)
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01:50:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: why shouldn't you?
01:53:02  <pjpe> lmao
01:53:07  <pjpe> griefing the shit out of someone
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02:30:35  <pjpe> are town replacement grfs exclusive?
02:30:38  <pjpe> or can you have a bunch on at once?
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07:14:14  <Uncle> hello guys, i posted this image few hours ago and nobody responded to me. what do you think about this station? https://p.twimg.com/AWxHRg6CQAMU2NV.png
07:14:20  <Uncle> trains can use all 4 platforms in both directions :)
07:15:47  <Uncle> it probably is not so special is it :D
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07:18:14  <KittenKoder> So it's a low speed version of the standard drive through.
07:21:34  <Uncle> yea
07:21:38  <KittenKoder> LOL
07:21:43  <Uncle> i just wanted to make it more realistic
07:22:00  <Uncle> in real world, trains use all platforms in both directions
07:22:04  <KittenKoder> Realism in something with square angles is impossible. ;)
07:22:34  <KittenKoder> Also, real stations have control booths to prevent trains from crashing. :p
07:22:41  <KittenKoder> Or bunching up.
07:23:49  <Uncle> heh, right :)
07:23:52  <KittenKoder> A station in TT is an iconic representation of one. OpenTTD has added some changes that make it possible to make it a little more realistic, but it's still iconic.
07:24:09  <KittenKoder> The tracks, doubly so.
07:24:42  <KittenKoder> Three lanes for real rails are not 3 miles wide, for instance.
07:25:43  <Uncle> also it usually does not take days (or months) to move from one place to another :D
07:25:44  <KittenKoder> Gah, as cool as my industrial complex looked, I'm playing too far into the future and will have to tram it all up.
07:26:06  <KittenKoder> Or for a bus to travel 10 days to go one city block. :p
07:26:48  <KittenKoder> I made a super realistic looking train station once ... well as realistic as I could ... once I got more than 10 trains there ... it just didn't work
07:27:18  <KittenKoder> On test layouts, they can work, but when you put in cargo transport, waiting times, etc. it falls apart fast.
07:28:29  <Uncle> anyway, this type of station would be useful if you would use only one main track in both direction. otherwise, if you use 2 tracks, it really slows down the trains :D
07:28:38  <KittenKoder> Also, because of the squareness of the tracks, a diagonal slash through a few lanes is technically more realistic than the swervey ones. Even though the swervey ones look better to the eye.
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07:29:33  <KittenKoder> Busy rails will need two tracks, super busy ones will need three, since you can't keep each train window open to control the prioritizations.
07:30:29  <KittenKoder> However, you are mastering PBS ... that's more realistic than block signals. :p
07:31:25  <KittenKoder> Oh, I'm always in a bad mood, FYI
07:36:26  <Uncle> btw, is anyone here a railfan like me?
07:36:41  <KittenKoder> What do you mean?
07:36:53  <Uncle> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railfan
07:37:52  <Uncle> i love photographing trains
07:37:53  <KittenKoder> Probably not THAT avid, but most people get into TT because of a love for rail modeling.
07:38:35  <KittenKoder> Many of the train set NewGRF devs are huge real train fans, and some are in here.
07:38:54  <KittenKoder> I'm a sci-fi fan who just like train models.
07:39:09  *** Coke [~peter@h-135-45.a254.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
07:39:30  <Coke> Hi guys! I'm playing witha  newgrf trainset, it seems to override the old. Is it possible to "add" instead of "replace" ?
07:39:39  <Coke> So I can play with 4-5 different trainsets at the same time?
07:40:01  <KittenKoder> First, check you advanced settings.
07:40:13  <Coke> yes
07:40:26  <KittenKoder> One sec, I forgot which it was.
07:40:56  <Coke> yes please.
07:41:23  <KittenKoder> Make sure "Enable multiple NewGRF engine sets" is on, under the vehicles section.
07:41:42  <Coke> it is on
07:41:44  <Coke> hmm
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07:41:52  <Coke> i guess it doesnt include the default?
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07:41:58  <KittenKoder> However, some GRF will override the default ones anyway, so it doesn't work all the time.
07:42:32  <Coke> ok
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07:42:40  <Coke> too bad.
07:42:46  <Coke> so i have two more questions.
07:42:51  <Coke> i keep getting the popup window for new tech
07:42:59  <Coke> ive tried finding a setting to turn it off, but is unable to
07:43:18  <KittenKoder> Aha, that setting use to elude me a lot.
07:43:42  <KittenKoder> Under messages, while playing, the newspaper looking icon, Message Settings.
07:44:17  <pjpe> how can i get the game to stop asking me if i want to try out a new vehicle ahead of time
07:44:26  <pjpe> always through the game
07:44:29  <Coke> KittenKoder: so no option in the advanced settings?
07:44:29  <pjpe> annoying popup
07:44:34  <KittenKoder> I forgot where that setting is.
07:44:35  <pjpe> i never want to try it
07:44:39  <pjpe> i hate you dialog window
07:44:41  <Coke> pjpe: yeah thats what we're discussing now
07:44:57  <KittenKoder> Coke, you have to start a game first, so yeah, as for the "try out new tech" ... that one I don't remember.
07:45:18  <Coke> pjpe: it's annoying as hell and so far i havent clicked Yes even once  :)
07:46:12  <Coke> One final question...
07:46:32  <Coke> Are there any settings/grf's to make the signals show their state and direction more clearly?
07:46:55  <Coke> In track-dense areas with many of them I often put one in the wrong direction by mistake
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07:47:10  <KittenKoder> There are different signal graphics available, I like the North American ones myself, they are clear to me.
07:47:18  <Coke> KittenKoder: ah.
07:47:34  <Coke> what's it called?
07:47:40  <KittenKoder> There's a German set and a few other to, the German set I think is too noisy.
07:48:25  <Coke> whats the north american called? checking online content now
07:48:28  <KittenKoder> Combined North American Signals.
07:48:37  <KittenKoder> Sorry, was looking it up.
07:49:03  <Coke> ok, checking it out now
07:49:52  <Coke> hm. weird, i find that less informative
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07:50:22  <Coke> the path signal looks exactly like the block signal from behind
07:50:27  <KittenKoder> Matter of taste.
07:50:47  <KittenKoder> Just look for the others and try different ones, eventually you may find one you like.
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07:52:20  <Coke> KittenKoder: ideally, it would have some meta graphics like an arrow on the rail for direction and the color could be red/green
07:52:34  <Coke> i might look into making my own grf at some point, just briefly looked at the documentation for it
07:52:51  <KittenKoder> NML makes it easy.
07:56:44  <Coke> i have antoher question now too
07:56:57  <Coke> if i load my swedish train set, anybody connecting to my server needs that grf too
07:57:07  <KittenKoder> 2026 .... normally I stop playing after 2020 out of boredom but I wanted to use my new maglev tracks .... so I set the town growth speed to fast ... this is interesting.
07:57:12  <Coke> (since it changes graphics and vehicle stats) right?
07:57:18  <KittenKoder> Yes
07:57:25  <Coke> what if I download bigGUI (which i have)
07:57:33  <Coke> does that require any other connections to have it as well?
07:57:37  <KittenKoder> That shouldn't make a difference.
07:58:35  <Coke> so i write nml, use grfmaker and thats it?
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07:59:02  <KittenKoder> You need to use command line stuff a little more.
07:59:26  <Wolf01> 'mornink
07:59:35  <KittenKoder> NML is it's own language that gets converted to nfo .... but that can all be done behind the scenes.
08:00:11  <KittenKoder> So you write the NML then "nmlc <filename>" and wind up with a GRF if all the files are in the right spots.
08:00:12  <Coke> oh i see now. nml is a compiler/decompiler
08:00:30  <Coke> nice. it's written in python :)
08:01:11  <KittenKoder> It's in constant development to, they are working hard to improve it. Though it can't handle everything, it can do a lot.
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08:04:50  <Terkhen> good morning
08:05:23  <KittenKoder> hihi
08:05:41  <Coke> Any good starters for using nml?
08:05:49  <pjpe> well that ain't right
08:05:52  <pjpe> you broke the order
08:05:57  <KittenKoder> Check the examples.
08:06:00  <pjpe> that guy says moin first every day
08:06:01  <Coke> right. thanks
08:06:06  <pjpe> and then you say good morning
08:06:13  <Terkhen> to my knowledge there is no step by step tutorial of nml
08:06:28  <Terkhen> http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/index.html <--- check the docs
08:06:30  <Terkhen> and the examples
08:07:03  <Terkhen> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ <-- some projects here use NML too and the code is available under GPL, they might be useful too
08:08:05  <Terkhen> pjpe: I always wake up at this hour so... not my fault ;)
08:08:23  <pjpe> now my whole day is screwed up
08:08:53  <Terkhen> people usually have different habits on sunday
08:08:57  <Terkhen> like... sleeping more
08:08:58  * KittenKoder is resisting going all maglev .... but frowns as favorite rail train reliability falls.
08:10:17  <Terkhen> IIRC maglev does not affect reliability
08:10:35  <KittenKoder> Playing too far into the future does.
08:11:05  <Terkhen> since I usually play alone and without breakdowns I tend to ignore reliability :P
08:11:12  <KittenKoder> Favorite rail trains are the TGV.
08:11:51  <KittenKoder> They are pretty. :(
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08:12:41  <KittenKoder> That's the only reason I want to make my sci-fi trian set .... aesthetics .... just pretty trains.
08:12:49  <KittenKoder> Eyecandy trains. :p
08:13:35  <Terkhen> are you planning to just replace default trains name/sprite or to make completely different ones?
08:13:45  <KittenKoder> Different ones.
08:15:23  <KittenKoder> Using other train stats for the eras so they aren't over powered to.
08:16:29  <KittenKoder> Though with a low degradation in reliability, if I can, on most.
08:18:14  <KittenKoder> I like playing with breakdowns enabled, but I don't like having to replace my favorite trains with something better all the time .... I know, a paradoxical stance ... but meh.
08:19:13  <KittenKoder> You know, after watching the SM4 ... it just doesn't look cool to me.
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08:35:18  <Coke> Should one use DOS or windows palette for sprites?
08:37:21  <KittenKoder> Windows, if you're making new ones.
08:41:19  <Terkhen> DOS has more colours, and with Action14 you can let OpenTTD know automatically which palette to use
08:42:11  <frosch123> defintely dos
08:42:21  <frosch123> there is no reason to use windows
08:42:23  <KittenKoder> Everyone else seems to use Windows though.
08:42:42  <frosch123> windows is historically used
08:42:50  <KittenKoder> Perhaps it's just an old habit for many?
08:43:02  <frosch123> you can argue that it does not matter, but there are no advantages for windows palette, only small ones for dos
08:43:32  <pjpe> why would dos have a colour advantage over windows
08:43:41  <KittenKoder> Windows has reserved colors.
08:43:59  <KittenKoder> Which are no longer needed by Windows ... really.
08:44:03  <frosch123> pipe: please discuss this only in the scope of newgrfs
08:44:12  <frosch123> this is not about operating systems at all
08:44:26  <KittenKoder> I think he was, frosch123
08:45:20  <frosch123> you can just call them palette A und B, there is no relation to any operating system (only historically)
08:45:46  <KittenKoder> The Windows palette was designed because the Windows GUI back in the 8bpp days used a small section of the palette for the GUI itself, thus the programs could not change them as they were OS controled.
08:46:44  <frosch123> well, just that the porters somehow messed the palette completely up for no known reason :)
08:47:03  <KittenKoder> That part I know nothing of. :p
08:47:16  <Coke> Hm, I was under the impression that nmlc could be used to get data from a newgrf also?
08:47:24  <KittenKoder> Nope.
08:47:32  <KittenKoder> GRF2HTML can do that though.
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08:49:59  <Coke> KittenKoder: where are the examples you talked about earlier?
08:50:26  <Terkhen> examples folder in a nml checkout
08:50:54  <KittenKoder> Yeah.
08:53:03  <Coke> hm. its not in the zipfile?
08:53:39  <KittenKoder> http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/file/8a05b032111b/examples
08:53:51  <Terkhen> if you are using the windows zipfile then it is not included
08:53:55  <KittenKoder> I thought it was.
08:54:01  <Terkhen> maybe it should
08:54:13  <KittenKoder> Aaah ... I use tars.
08:55:10  <Terkhen> yes, the windows zip is different; it is not a tarball but a standalone nmlc.exe that does not require python, pil, ply and so on (I suppose they are included into it somehow)
08:55:11  <Coke> I think i have the tar too
08:55:20  <Coke> thats what I have
08:55:22  <Terkhen> Coke: of what nml version?
08:55:23  <Coke> but its a zip
08:55:31  <Terkhen> does it include a nmlc.exe file?
08:55:35  <Coke> no, im on linux
08:55:46  <Terkhen> then you are using a tarball
08:55:58  <Terkhen> I'd recommend using a nml checkout though, nml changes fast
08:55:58  <Coke> well, there's no examples dir in it
08:56:10  <KittenKoder> Well, Linux can use zips to, but installing with an exe would just be a waste.
08:56:13  <Terkhen> you still did not answer my "which version" question
08:56:24  <Terkhen> examples are relatively recent IIRC
08:56:28  <Coke> cloning now
08:56:58  <KittenKoder> Coke, you could get the archive from here: http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/file/8a05b032111b
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08:57:13  <Terkhen> the nml repository has a "nmlc", if you create a symbolic link to it the only thing you need to do to update nml is hg pull -u :)
08:57:16  <Coke> r1612 (8a05b032111b)
08:57:16  <Coke> Library versions encountered:
08:57:16  <Coke> PIL: 1.1.7
08:57:16  <Coke> PLY: 3.4
08:57:23  <Coke> is that about right from the repos?
08:57:26  <KittenKoder> Then you'll have all the nml .... as long as you have the dependencies installed already.
08:57:41  <Terkhen> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository
08:59:23  <KittenKoder> Hey! There's an example file there I hadn't noticed.
08:59:24  <KittenKoder> >.<
08:59:47  <Coke> ok so i see 4 versions of the train
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09:00:02  <Coke> is one for being rear?
09:00:25  <Terkhen> KittenKoder: as I said, nml development moves quite fast :P
09:00:36  <Terkhen> Coke: you see them where?
09:00:39  <KittenKoder> ^_^ It's fun trying to keep up.
09:00:51  <Coke> the train png
09:00:53  <Coke> in the example
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09:01:04  <Terkhen> changes to nml are announced at #openttdcoop.devzone
09:01:06  <Coke> its a huge png with tiles in it
09:01:10  <Terkhen> development talks also take place there
09:01:15  <Coke> im guessing the coordinates are specified for each sprite
09:01:18  <Terkhen> Coke: yes
09:01:25  <Coke> but im wondering why there are four sets of the train
09:01:37  <Coke> one has normal lights and one has the rear lights lit
09:01:46  <Coke> i get that... but then there are two more w/o any lights
09:02:02  <Terkhen> probably animation
09:02:20  <Terkhen> you switch between different sprites, the result is that the lights blink
09:02:28  <Coke> hm. looks like one has a fin on the back
09:02:57  <Terkhen> how are the sprites used is explained inside the nml file anyways
09:03:00  <Coke> can I get hold of the original openttd graphics somehow?
09:03:02  <Coke> Terkhen: yeah.
09:03:24  <Coke> i'm just going to view examples and in game data until i get it i guess
09:03:30  <Terkhen> depends on what you mean with original openttd graphics
09:03:36  <Terkhen> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx
09:04:00  <KittenKoder> The original-original graphics you have to buy the original game.
09:04:11  <Coke> no, i mean the ones used by default in openttd
09:04:16  <Coke> ah, opengfx yeah
09:12:02  <Terkhen> the train example looks does some advanced stuff, you might want to look at the road vehicle example first
09:14:18  <Coke> yeah
09:15:36  <KittenKoder> Train example is good for parameters though.
09:16:26  <Coke> im just changing some graphics
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09:16:44  <Coke> im looking for the nml in opengfx that defines the original signals
09:16:57  <KittenKoder> You won't find one.
09:17:15  <KittenKoder> That was done with pure nfo.
09:17:25  <Terkhen> opengfx is not in nml, it uses very simple nfo (it just defines base sprites)
09:17:36  <Coke> ok
09:17:57  <Coke> but i guess the preferred new method is to use nml even for simpler stuff?
09:18:23  <Terkhen> the preference of what to use is left to the coder
09:18:26  <Terkhen> but nml is simpler :P
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09:18:50  <Terkhen> I don't know how to replace default sprites with nml
09:18:54  <Terkhen> neither with nfo :P
09:20:57  <KittenKoder> The use between nfo and nml in new stuff is about even from what I've seen, though a lot are moving over to nml, nfo requires a lot more work.
09:21:28  <KittenKoder> To replace default sprites ... hmm .... you need to know the default IDs first
09:21:48  <KittenKoder> For either one.
09:22:30  <KittenKoder> NewGRF isn't really as simple as saying "here, use this instead" anymore.
09:22:41  <Coke> Im looking in opengfx for the generic signals
09:23:14  <KittenKoder> It's in the huge image file with all the tracks.
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09:28:46  * KittenKoder ponders adding Mad Max like trains to the sci-fi set.
09:29:02  <KittenKoder> Pure eye candy.
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09:36:31  <Coke> KittenKoder: looks like each signal is built of a template and only specifying a png file
09:36:34  <Coke> one for each type of signal
09:38:04  <KittenKoder> No idea what you are looking at.
09:38:59  <KittenKoder> Serious flaw with HEQ after 2020.
09:39:20  <KittenKoder> Realiabilities on the mining ones fall too much.
09:48:01  <Coke> KittenKoder: opengfx
09:48:05  <Coke> the nfo
09:48:11  <Coke> anyway, im trying to do this in nml
09:49:03  <KittenKoder> I don't know about NFO.
09:50:25  <Alberth> both NFO and NML source tends to use a template language to reduce the amount of text (often the c pre-processor)
09:52:58  <Coke> hm, the examples all define new things
09:53:27  <KittenKoder> For NML?
09:53:46  <KittenKoder> The examples make use of the templating a lot actually.
09:54:36  <KittenKoder> The sprites are really all template to.
09:56:19  <Alberth> KittenKoder: it means there is still a lot of room for improving NML ;)
09:56:54  <KittenKoder> I like the style it has actually.
09:58:01  <Coke> Im simply looking to replace the graphics of the existing signals
09:58:19  <KittenKoder> A few more features, particularly stations, would be awesome, and better organized documentation would be all I would like to see.
09:59:03  <Terkhen> Coke: http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/nml-language.html#block-replacement
09:59:05  <KittenKoder> Coke, it's never as simple as it sounds. ;)
09:59:57  <Alberth> KittenKoder: NFO is a very large language, it takes time to support everything that is possible. Not in the last place because NFO is a moving target
10:00:17  <Alberth> or better phrased 'expanding target' :)
10:01:13  <KittenKoder> I know, thus why I'm not griping about it, just saying it'd be nice. ^_^
10:01:57  <KittenKoder> It seems NFO may soon allow coders to completely rewrite anything in OTTD without having to make unofficial versions.
10:02:53  <KittenKoder> Sheesh, the Bombadier HSML maglev has horrible acceleration.
10:03:53  <Coke> Terkhen: yes, Im trying to find the ID of the signals
10:04:06  <planetmaker> indeed :-) - the adv. sprite layouts ate quite a bit of coding time also in nml
10:04:10  <Eddi|zuHause> KittenKoder: 2cc set? they have totally wrong air resistance values
10:04:18  <planetmaker> but ussing them in nfo is probably a bit painful, too
10:05:02  <planetmaker> and yes, newgrfs can modify a lot of things. But there's lots which they also cannot do
10:05:36  <planetmaker> much more than the casual user who hears "newgrf" (=new graphics) may think as it's an api to modify the behaviour of basically every game object
10:05:58  <planetmaker> but not of the game itself :-)
10:06:12  *** Juo [~Juo@cpc11-acto2-2-0-cust244.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Juo]
10:06:46  <KittenKoder> Eddi|zuHause, no, the HEQ set.
10:07:13  <Coke> Where can one find a complete list of sprite ID's ?
10:07:22  <Eddi|zuHause> KittenKoder: i don't think HEQS has maglevs
10:07:33  <KittenKoder> Oh, erm ... yeah then.
10:07:34  <KittenKoder> LOL
10:07:44  <planetmaker> Coke: when you use newgrfs: nowhere
10:07:49  <KittenKoder> Sorry, I completely forgot I mentioned the maglev.
10:07:50  <Terkhen> Coke: reread the link I gave you :)
10:07:57  <planetmaker> otherwise, a complete one: either in openttd source, or get the source of opengfx
10:08:33  <planetmaker> it's probably as documented as openttd is itself, esp. as it makes somewhat clearer which sprites are climate-specific
10:08:50  <Coke> ah, they had a link to the reference there
10:08:55  <Terkhen> yes
10:09:00  <Coke> which crashed firefox
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10:09:05  <Terkhen> it's kind of long
10:09:30  <Coke> no, wait... firefox is humming along using up all of my four 3.6ghz i7 cores
10:09:36  <planetmaker> is it the sprite overview page, Terkhen?
10:09:53  <Terkhen> in nml they link to OpenGFX author reference
10:09:57  <Terkhen> nml documentation*
10:09:58  <planetmaker> ah
10:10:05  <planetmaker> I miss(ed) that ;-)
10:10:21  <planetmaker> imho still easier to look at opengfx sources. it's more detailed
10:10:37  <Terkhen> Coke: I can open it without problems with a far less powerful processor so I'm blaming firefox (it takes long to load all sprites of course)
10:11:20  <KittenKoder> What link?
10:11:27  <Terkhen> http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/nml-language.html#block-replacement
10:11:37  <Terkhen> and then opengfx author reference
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10:11:45  <KittenKoder> Less than a second on mine/
10:11:49  <planetmaker> but it also loads about 15000 images ;-)
10:12:02  <Coke> Terkhen: yes, firefox is a bit bloatie
10:12:12  <Coke> Terkhen: so, let me see if I undesrtand this correctly.
10:12:13  <planetmaker> ah, 10k only
10:12:32  <Coke> The block signal has one ID for every direction and state
10:12:33  <KittenKoder> ???
10:12:38  <planetmaker> yup
10:12:42  <KittenKoder> What images?
10:12:49  <Markk> Less than a second here as well, Firefox 6 Windows 7.
10:13:07  <Markk> Firefox is much slower in Ubuntu from what I've noticed.
10:13:20  <KittenKoder> I'm using Ubuntu on this machine.
10:13:33  <planetmaker> iirc all signals all together are 8*2*6
10:13:37  <planetmaker> @calc 8*2*6
10:13:37  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 96
10:13:39  <planetmaker> sprites
10:13:50  <KittenKoder> It's only a P4 3ghz to.
10:13:56  <planetmaker> oh. *2. For semaphore vs. light signals
10:13:57  <Coke> So all I ahve to do is put more realsprite lines in there to step from 1275 to 1290, correct?
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10:14:40  <planetmaker> for certain definitions of "put more realsprite lines", yes
10:14:48  <MNIM> markk, firefox in ubuntu is getting more and more of a brick
10:14:53  <Coke> planetmaker: yeah, where they are linear
10:14:57  <Coke> in sequence
10:15:02  <Markk> MNIM: Yes, I know.
10:15:03  <MNIM> firsthand experience here.
10:15:06  <frosch123> on my machine opera is the only browser which can handle big grf2html outputs. firefox/iceweasel and epiphany just fail :)
10:15:32  <MNIM> if this keeps up, Im just going to use wine or something. >.<
10:15:34  <Markk> Chrome is really slow and takes about double the time or more to load websites for me in Windows than Firefox.
10:15:57  <Terkhen> chrome always is faster than firefox for me
10:16:01  <Markk> Terkhen: Windows?
10:16:05  <Terkhen> yup
10:16:09  <Markk> Weird.
10:16:17  <KittenKoder> Actually, it's Ubuntu that's getting to be a mess these days.
10:16:42  <KittenKoder> I'm not happy with the direction it's going but I'm too lazy to copy everything to a temporary location to get Gentoo on it.
10:16:55  <MNIM> well, that too
10:17:00  <Terkhen> :)
10:17:07  <MNIM> Im considering changing to mint
10:17:12  <Markk> Same sheit.
10:17:24  <KittenKoder> Mint looks nice, but I don't know what it's like.
10:17:32  <MNIM> mint has at least still some developers with the power of common sense
10:17:52  <MNIM> KittenKoder: basically, mint = ubuntu - bullcrap
10:17:53  <KittenKoder> I do know I like Gentoo because you just get the basics with it.
10:17:59  <MNIM> well, a lot of it at least.
10:18:27  <KittenKoder> Ubuntu has gotten political these days, in deciding what packages they want for the official servers now.
10:18:35  <KittenKoder> I wind up doing most installs by hand anyway.
10:18:36  <EmperorJake> I see I'm not the only one considering swithching away from ubunt
10:18:43  <MNIM> either way, Ubuntu 10.10 still works for the time being.
10:19:13  <MNIM> but Im expecting a moment in time where Ill be forced to upgrade or migrate
10:19:17  <KittenKoder> For me, it barely works now.
10:19:37  <KittenKoder> I've had to tweak the video drivers, and the rest is getting bloated.
10:19:40  <EmperorJake> My ubuntu install is deteriorating from too much mucking around.
10:19:51  <EmperorJake> I get a lot of random crashes and segfaults
10:19:59  <MNIM> same here. mine's pretty much frankenbuntu nowadays.
10:20:00  <Coke> The documentation specifies the realsprite as "[left_x, upper_y, width, height, offset_x, offset_y]", what is offsets used for here?
10:20:04  <MNIM> no random crashes, though
10:20:13  <Coke> x,y and w,h already specifies a rectangle, isnt that enough?
10:20:14  <MNIM> well, apart from those caused by firefox or flash
10:20:28  <Coke> is it an offset for the blitter to use?
10:20:33  <KittenKoder> Having to do it all manually defeats the whole reason I liked Ubuntu in the beginning.
10:20:45  <MNIM> lol, true.
10:20:48  <KittenKoder> Coke, one sec.
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10:21:14  <KittenKoder> At the bottom, it explains it a little: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/PalettesAndCoordinates
10:21:15  <MNIM> but for me it's mostly changing settings that I really hate about new buntus compared to older 9.xx versions
10:21:30  <MNIM> like the idiot idea to swap around the titlebar buttons, for example.
10:21:38  <MNIM> and then, unity.
10:21:45  <KittenKoder> I had to use the text editor to change too many settings lately.
10:21:55  <MNIM> I saw it, was like 'ugh', and rolled the fuck back as fast as I could.
10:22:21  <KittenKoder> Yet the Gnome applet for changing settings has gotten bigger .... which is rather questionable to say the least.
10:22:41  <Terkhen> one of the reasons of why I'm using windows (besides laziness) is because I'm tired of all desktop environments :)
10:22:54  <Terkhen> right now I have a VM with gnome 2, that's what I like
10:23:00  <KittenKoder> I don't like the Windows desktop environment at all.
10:23:08  <Terkhen> not that stupid gnome 3 thing
10:23:11  <EmperorJake> When I plug in a flash drive, I have to go into gksudo-nautilus to be able to change files on it and I have to unmount it using sudo umount.
10:23:17  <Coke> ah, xrel and yrel are more suitable names
10:23:18  <Coke> KittenKoder: thanks
10:23:27  <KittenKoder> I never did after Win98.
10:23:41  <KittenKoder> You're welcome.
10:23:48  <Terkhen> windows 7 has a lot of changes, it is bearable :P
10:24:18  <KittenKoder> I don't like that fakey glass look or translucent windows.
10:24:27  <MNIM> KittenKoder, you never used windows 2000?
10:24:29  <EmperorJake> windows xp forever! I still use it on my partition for playing games
10:24:38  <MNIM> seriously, that os was GOD compared to modern oses.
10:25:01  <KittenKoder> ... and I'm not going to pay 100 bucks for a pack of themes just to get a nice neat simple and functional one.
10:25:15  <KittenKoder> I didn't like 2K for internal reasons.
10:25:54  <MNIM> lol, I kinda like the eyecandy, but then again, Im more an artist than a computerwiz.
10:26:07  <KittenKoder> Why is it NewStations doesn't use the actual track?
10:26:28  <MNIM> I think that's because it was build before newtracks
10:26:34  <Coke> cool it works
10:26:38  <Coke> Thanks guys
10:27:07  <MNIM> what I really hate about the modern windows windowmanager is that it is so messy!
10:27:15  <MNIM> and no multiple desktops!
10:27:31  <KittenKoder> It's the only city station set I really like, besides the Japanese one, but I think that may have the same problem, I should check.
10:27:37  <frosch123> KittenKoder: stations use the new tracks
10:27:54  <frosch123> just make the station use the default track ground tile, and ottd will make the newrail grf draw it
10:28:04  <KittenKoder> frosch123, not the GRF titled NewStations. ;)
10:28:14  <Eddi|zuHause> KittenKoder: newstations is old
10:28:20  <MNIM> I mean, I got used to my Ctrl+ArrowLeft/right desktop switching and my Ctrl+Alt+Numpad7 window positioning
10:28:28  <KittenKoder> Okay, that does explain it.
10:29:03  <KittenKoder> Multiple desktops would be great if I had multiple monitors.
10:29:19  <KittenKoder> Hmm ... I should buy a second monitor so I can play OTTD and watch movies at the same time.
10:29:55  <frosch123> [12:23] <Coke> ah, xrel and yrel are more suitable names <- you can see xrel and yrel also ingame: http://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_Debugging
10:30:11  <Alberth> KittenKoder: isn't that called 'television' ?
10:30:20  <KittenKoder> You still watch TV?
10:30:27  <MNIM> lol
10:30:31  <KittenKoder> :p
10:30:44  * frosch123 just wanted to ask the same :)
10:30:45  <MNIM> I rarely watch tv on an actual *tv* nowadays,
10:30:45  <KittenKoder> Mine is only for PS2 ... if I ever play it.
10:30:55  * frosch123 has no tv, only internet
10:30:57  <Alberth> hardly, it's not interesting what they broadcast :p
10:31:04  <MNIM> I just pirate everything and watch it on my pc.
10:31:27  <MNIM> screw commercial channels with their damn add blocks lasting longer than the actual movie/series does
10:31:27  <KittenKoder> I don't know why they even bothered with this new digital TV over the air anyway.
10:31:46  <MNIM> I'm surprised it hasn't even been hacked yet,
10:32:03  <KittenKoder> Super easy, no challenge so the hackers don't care.
10:32:07  <MNIM> I mean *everything* digital gets hacked if it's remotely interesting
10:32:32  <KittenKoder> Any government computer system run by the government .... garbage ... not even a challenge enough for beginners.
10:32:32  <Coke> KittenKoder: the same way all new technology is introduced; people want to make money
10:32:47  <frosch123> MNIM: you mean something like broadcasting a virus via dvb-t ?
10:32:58  <MNIM> lol, that would be entertaining
10:33:29  <frosch123> like the tv could no longer switch channels and only display arte or so :p
10:33:31  <KittenKoder> That could be done .. the boxes and new TVs are actually programmable.
10:33:33  <MNIM> nah, I meant, as in hacking the signal. At least over here, you have to pay for a decoder to decode the digital signal and put it through to your tv
10:33:35  <Coke> KittenKoder: unfortunately, it is very difficult to make money from really great ideas
10:33:50  <MNIM> so it would perhaps be interesting to hack that and make it free
10:34:25  <KittenKoder> It's free over the air anyway.
10:34:35</