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Log for #openttd on 29th August 2011:
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06:02:12  <Terkhen> good morning
06:16:31  <planetmaker> moin
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07:27:49  <andythenorth> mrrrning
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07:33:30  <Terkhen> hi andythenorth
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07:38:41  * andythenorth gives leanden some 'help' with roadtypes :P
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07:59:18  <dihedral> morning
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10:32:31  <JVassie> rawr
10:34:51  <planetmaker> rwar
10:36:15  <JVassie> howsa is yousa?
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10:52:09  <JVassie> how good is netbeans as an IDE for writing c++?
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11:45:07  <andythenorth> tra la la la
11:45:10  <andythenorth> one tile locks?
11:45:53  <Eddi|zuHause> recode the lock as an object with a state machine ;)
11:46:12  <andythenorth> I'll get right on that :P
11:46:13  <andythenorth> :)
11:46:32  <Eddi|zuHause> prerequesite: implement state machines for objects :p
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12:01:35  <andythenorth> hmm
12:01:40  * andythenorth forgot this isn't yacd :P
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12:43:11  <krinn> hi all
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12:43:37  <krinn> can a newGRF (a trainset) lie to openttd or is it some kind of bug in openttd or the newGRF ?
12:44:32  <krinn> as i have one train saying only it can pull passenger to AIEngine.CanPullCargo and false for other cargo, and this train can indeed pull other cargo
12:44:33  <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
12:45:02  <krinn> openttd or newGRF bug ?
12:45:49  <Eddi|zuHause> involved newgrfs would be helpful.
12:46:17  <Eddi|zuHause> but my crystal ball says it might have to do with invalid callback on the purchase list
12:46:35  <krinn> it's UKRS train set
12:47:00  <krinn> the lying engine is name 4-6-2 Streak (Steam)
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12:49:00  <krinn> that's awful because using AIEngine.CanPullCargo to filter bad wagons with HST engine == the 4-6-2 is filtered out while it can be use to pull something other than just passenger
12:49:08  <krinn> lol the two trains are in the same set ^^
12:50:36  <Eddi|zuHause> which ukrs version? i don't see a 4-6-2 streak
12:51:18  <krinn> second i look where i can find that
12:51:47  <krinn> 0,81/proj1000 ?
12:51:56  <krinn> it's that the version ?
12:52:14  <krinn> UKRS2
12:52:16  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, that is ukrs2...
12:53:04  <krinn> oh i see public alpha0.81 going check for an update
12:53:50  <krinn> no that's latest version from banana
12:54:48  <krinn> should i just consider that a bug in it from the newGRF author and ignore the engine ?
12:56:07  <Sacro> !summon Pikka
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12:57:12  <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly is the meaning of "canpullcargo"?
12:57:41  <krinn> a train can pull a wagon with a cargotype
12:57:59  <krinn> if canpullcargo(pass) = false -> you cannot use that engine to pull wagon with passenger
12:58:38  <krinn> but tests and openttd show it's just more a : canonlypullpass || canpullanything
12:59:28  <planetmaker> that's also what the docs say, don't they?
12:59:30  <Eddi|zuHause> do you have a link to the documentation?
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12:59:57  <krinn> from openttd return (::RailVehInfo(engine_id)->ai_passenger_only != 1) || AICargo::HasCargoClass(cargo_id, AICargo::CC_PASSENGERS);
13:00:01  <krinn> http://noai.openttd.org/docs/trunk/classAIEngine.html#657f308ece02382bed5f9a7405eb0f14
13:00:24  <krinn> the note is interresting :)
13:02:06  <planetmaker> :-)
13:02:14  <Eddi|zuHause> that note doesn't make a lot of sense
13:02:35  <krinn> that note seems to say: yep, i'm a useless function
13:03:09  <krinn> more like a dup of :) http://noai.openttd.org/docs/trunk/classAIBase.html#c57cf1dd4123657ba2d6f33afa5e1cfa
13:03:12  <planetmaker> but it's about true... only testing it can really tell you with newgrfs
13:03:48  <krinn> but within the same newGRF, it's not about some conflict with another newGRF or things like that
13:04:16  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: i'm fairly sure that it returns property 08: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Vehicles/Trains
13:04:31  <krinn> and i can easy show you it's not ^^
13:04:55  <krinn> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ai-aivehicletest
13:05:28  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: and if that is what it does, it means the answer to your original question is: "yes, the newgrf can lie about it"
13:06:21  <krinn> yes, it was to see if the real answer was "it's a bug in openttd/newgrf" or "it's a useless function"
13:06:39  <planetmaker> hm... I thought there was a property or flag which signals to AIs whether a vehicle should preferentially be used for passengers. But I don't find it
13:06:57  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: my line above
13:07:27  <planetmaker> exactly. thank you
13:07:28  <glx> it just returns not optimised for passenger (prop 8) or cargo class is passenger
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13:07:42  <andythenorth> stupid docks
13:08:06  <andythenorth> stupid locks
13:08:09  <andythenorth> stupid canals
13:08:20  <Eddi|zuHause> stupid rivers? ;)
13:08:31  <planetmaker> stupid game!
13:08:34  <andythenorth> stupid game
13:08:35  <planetmaker> it's not real!
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13:08:49  <krinn> stupid lag ?
13:09:02  <Belugas> hi
13:09:06  <krinn> hi
13:09:14  <planetmaker> hi Belugas
13:09:27  <krinn> should i filebug for CanPullCargo ?
13:09:39  <Belugas> bien le bonjour :)
13:09:44  <glx> the function seems correct
13:09:46  <krinn> de même Belugas
13:10:00  <planetmaker> what is the bug, krinn?
13:10:08  <planetmaker> a newgrf reporting wrongly?
13:10:09  <Belugas> wow... avec des accents en plus!
13:10:21  <krinn> the function answer bad result
13:10:24  <glx> Belugas: c'est facile pour lui :)
13:10:33  <krinn> saying a train cannot pull wood while it can
13:10:45  <glx> it uses newgrf data
13:10:53  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: this is basically a hint by the grf author how the engine *should* be used, not what it *can* be used for.
13:11:05  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: and the "note" in the docs is simply wrong
13:11:21  <planetmaker> it's a recommendation by the "game must simulate reality" newgrf authors
13:11:21  <krinn> I know something is wrong, trying to get what is wrong :)
13:11:50  <planetmaker> it's not a function which describes the vehicle properties, but the vehicle intention
13:12:06  <glx> an engine can always pull anything
13:12:11  <krinn> i see a kinda of "don't use TGV to pull wood FFS !"
13:12:15  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: the grf says "this is a passenger engine", but does not enforce no non-passenger usage
13:12:38  <planetmaker> thus you can use your tgv to pull wood or ore
13:12:39  <glx> unless there's also attach callback
13:12:41  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: yes, that's exactly what it is
13:12:44  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, yep it can, as HST do
13:12:51  <Belugas> hehe... therefor, it is a useless grf!
13:12:56  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: it can != it does
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13:13:40  <planetmaker> its purpose is to tell the AI: "if you want to look good, don't pull wood with this engine"
13:13:53  <planetmaker> if you think profit is more important: ignore that advice
13:14:09  <krinn> and if you don't care about looking good: no answer could be get so ?
13:14:38  <planetmaker> that function is only about "looking good advice"
13:15:03  <planetmaker> your AI has to test itself what actually works
13:15:30  <krinn> i might look bitchy, but answer like that explain it all, while doc leave me in cloud
13:15:50  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: fix the docs
13:15:56  <planetmaker> ^ :-)
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13:16:29  <krinn> looks like i'm the only one to fall on this kind  of stuff :(
13:16:50  <JVassie> what might a collective word for empire, federation, state and republic be?
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13:17:11  <krinn> country?
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13:17:25  <JVassie> thinking bigger than that
13:17:35  <Markk> Union.
13:17:43  <krinn> alliance of
13:17:44  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: administrative unit
13:17:59  <JVassie> lol Eddi :p
13:18:05  <Markk> Das Reich.
13:18:09  <JVassie> doesnt exactly inspire confidence/authority
13:18:09  <Markk> There we go.
13:18:11  <Markk> :)
13:18:19  <planetmaker> authority?
13:18:45  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: of the words you gave, "state" doesn't really fit in
13:18:59  <JVassie> how so?
13:19:04  <planetmaker> nor nation actually
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13:19:13  <JVassie> didnt mention nation :p
13:19:23  <krinn> :D
13:19:27  <planetmaker> I know :-)
13:19:42  <JVassie> cant come up with anything thats 'bigger' than those 4
13:19:45  <planetmaker> But you're looking for synonyms. Excluding related words might help
13:20:01  <planetmaker> the milkyway :-P
13:20:04  <krinn> well, these words doesn't define a limit already
13:20:15  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: some kind of context might help
13:20:35  <JVassie> let me try to form a cohesive outline of the context
13:20:56  <JVassie> ill try to use generic words for it
13:21:04  <JVassie> a player in a game
13:21:16  <JVassie> controls a 'company'
13:21:18  <planetmaker> roams his realm ;-)
13:21:36  <JVassie> a company might belong to an 'alliance'
13:21:46  <Eddi|zuHause> is it me or is the forum awfully unresponsive?
13:21:57  <planetmaker> "claim", JVassie?
13:22:02  <JVassie> a collection of alliances might be an empire/federation/republic/state
13:22:12  <planetmaker> it's you, Eddi|zuHause
13:22:21  <JVassie> each of those 4 is an example of ...?
13:22:24  <JVassie> file in the blank
13:22:26  <JVassie> (fill
13:22:41  <JVassie> names are interchangeable
13:22:50  <JVassie> company was a spur of the moment thing
13:22:53  <krinn> these doesn't gave a size clue, just how they are rules
13:23:06  <JVassie> but doesnt really fit into a 'space' theme
13:23:19  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: i think that's kind of backwards... usually "states" form "alliances", not "alliances" form "states"
13:23:37  <JVassie> mmm i guess
13:24:04  <JVassie> state does kind of seem insignificant against republic/federation/empire
13:24:23  <krinn> i don't have the word, but i think you seek one that define commonwealth
13:25:07  <JVassie> well i have many other names of 'bodies' floating around in my head: syndicate, association, enterprise, partnership
13:25:15  <JVassie> corporation
13:25:38  <JVassie> conglomorate
13:25:43  <JVassie> organization
13:25:47  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what you want to model, but "state" should be the lowest unit, "alliance"/"federation"/"empire" the higher unit
13:26:18  <Eddi|zuHause> (where each of the three has different organizational structure)
13:26:24  <krinn> they speak about framework
13:27:27  <JVassie> I guess im looking at a 3 or 4 four tier structure ranging from an individual (who is the owner/controller/overseer/whatever os his or her entity (account)) up to one of the 'big 3' i guess, federation, republic, empire
13:27:39  <JVassie> *three or four tier
13:28:25  <krinn> there's no word to define that imo, that's why commonweath was create
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13:28:51  <Eddi|zuHause> if you think more about economy, then branch/company/corporation, if you think more about military then city/state/empire
13:28:52  <krinn> oh maybe, just realm ?
13:29:15  <krinn> realm can define even a new world
13:29:17  <JVassie> i think in the 'gaming' context, realm is on par with a specific server
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13:29:24  <JVassie> and/or universe/world
13:29:44  <JVassie> hmm
13:30:23  <krinn> remind me d&d forgotten realm :p
13:30:43  <JVassie> synonyms for realm bring up: domain, dominion, kingdom, monarchy, neighbourhood, province, principality
13:30:50  <JVassie> region
13:30:59  <JVassie> territory
13:30:59  <krinn> dominion is perfect for space
13:31:06  <JVassie> mmm
13:31:17  <JVassie> a lot of these words dont really hold in a space theme
13:31:23  <JVassie> i mean neighborhood? :p
13:32:18  <krinn> A territory or sphere of influence or control; a realm. for dominion
13:32:51  <JVassie> thats brought up yet more synonyms..
13:33:20  <JVassie> :p
13:33:27  <krinn> but dictionary put (1. rule; authority) should met your needs
13:33:28  <JVassie> maybe a forum post in off-topic
13:33:50  <JVassie> would faction cover empire/federation/republic?
13:34:02  <JVassie> or i guess depending on context, race might
13:34:21  <krinn> no faction could be inside an empire without been from that empire
13:34:46  <JVassie> sorry you lost me there
13:34:57  <krinn> mercenaries factions
13:35:09  <krinn> disidents could also be a faction
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13:37:38  <JVassie> think i shall take this to a forum post
13:37:42  <JVassie> will let you know when its up
13:37:47  <JVassie> and interestign discussion i think :P
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13:38:52  <frosch123> oh, daily coop pingout again?
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13:39:38  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: i don't think this makes a lot of sense when you don't have a really formed out context yet
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13:40:37  <JVassie> do you have any specific questions i coudl answer?
13:40:39  <JVassie> *could
13:40:42  <krinn> agree with Eddi|zuHause they can all define your word, depending on context (say economic, politic, religious or military)
13:41:17  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: i mean if you're designing a game, you design the rules first, and then find names for them afterwards
13:41:52  <JVassie> i did get sidetrakced a little ill admit
13:42:09  <frosch123> hmm, there should be a newgrf spec to change the ranking names in the highscore
13:42:13  <JVassie> my original intention was just to find a collective name for empire/republic/federation/state
13:42:15  <JVassie> for the spec
13:42:18  <frosch123> "pope" might be interesting
13:42:34  <JVassie> as a 'tier above' what im terming alliance currently
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13:43:17  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: and i was pointing out that there's quite some inconsistency in there
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13:43:40  <JVassie> hmm
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13:44:04  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: and this inconsistency can only be solved if you design it bottom-up
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13:44:20  <Eddi|zuHause> and not "i need a new level, let's find a name for it"
13:44:25  <JVassie> so from largest -> smallest?
13:44:43  <krinn> the problem is most of them doesn't fit a "size"
13:45:06  <krinn> an empire could be from few people to a universe
13:45:16  <Eddi|zuHause> no, you make up the game rules first, with generic names "top level", "lowest level" etc., then you define rules for the game, and _then_ you pick names
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13:46:28  <krinn> most game solve it with grades
13:46:50  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: i mean you told us *absolutely nothing* about the game
13:46:57  <JVassie> wrong :p
13:47:11  <krinn> space is all we know
13:47:23  <JVassie> and that im aimign for 3 or 4 tiers
13:47:25  <Eddi|zuHause> let me rephrase that: you told us *virtually nothing* about the game
13:47:25  <JVassie> *aiming
13:47:39  <JVassie> struggling to put what im thinking into words
13:47:47  <Eddi|zuHause> you have not answered my question about whether it would be economically-themed or military-themed
13:47:51  <krinn> just put numbers then
13:48:28  <JVassie> lets start from the top :p
13:48:34  <Eddi|zuHause> what kind of interaction would be between the players?
13:48:48  <Eddi|zuHause> within an alliance, between alliances?
13:48:52  <JVassie> economic and military interaction
13:48:55  <JVassie> both
13:49:54  <JVassie> a player belongs to a 'race'
13:50:52  <JVassie> but that doesn't prohibit/necessitate being in one of any of the tiers
13:50:56  <JVassie> if that makes sense?
13:51:13  <JVassie> so ill exclude political/religious from the list of interactions
13:51:18  <krinn> not really, your describe an alliance, like NATO
13:51:27  <JVassie> (at least at a player level)
13:51:54  <krinn> your allied or not, no level in between if you don't consider treators as a level :)
13:52:05  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: maybe you want separate hierarchies for the economical and military aspects
13:52:21  <JVassie> good idea
13:52:46  <Eddi|zuHause> so you can open trade relations without making a military commitment
13:52:58  <JVassie> how might that work in practice though? as militaryand economic aspects often are entwined
13:53:29  <JVassie> there is also wether a 'relationship' be it between players or between any tier of 'alliance' are enforcable or not
13:53:40  <JVassie> ie regulated by the game
13:53:54  <JVassie> if player a is allied to player b, can a still attack b
13:54:14  <JVassie> if alliance is allied to alliance b, can a still attack b
13:54:37  <glx> in real life that happens
13:54:48  <krinn> as long as A can attack B nothing prevent it
13:55:03  <krinn> alliance has been broken many times without a word
13:55:03  <glx> even if they are allied
13:55:26  <krinn> it was even use as tactical power
13:55:27  <Eddi|zuHause> that usually means that the alliance is immediately terminated ;)
13:55:36  <krinn> yes :D
13:55:52  <krinn> but the surpise/benefits from using it is already taken
13:55:57  <JVassie> unfortunately we come to a 'clashing' of terminology here
13:56:09  <JVassie> alliance being a collection of smaller entities
13:56:15  <JVassie> not a 'state' between seperate entities
13:56:21  <JVassie> gah ive done it again >.>
13:56:35  <JVassie> not a 'relationship status' between seperate entities
13:56:52  <krinn> nothing can prevent an alliance to broke, nor race, nor religion, and certainly not economic (that must be the main reason to broke it)
13:57:24  <JVassie> see above krinn :)
13:58:16  <JVassie> i think this begs the question, what could a tier 3 do, that a tier 2 couldnt
13:58:16  <krinn> alliance isn't define by size, 2 people could make one, or many countries, that's why i don't get what you're looking for
13:58:22  <JVassie> or a tier 4 do that a tier 3 couldnt
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13:59:27  <JVassie> krinn, i dont mean alliance in the sense of war/nap/allies i mean it in the sense of a collection of players working choesively for some purpose (military and/or economical)
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14:00:02  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: let's take medieval germany as an example. you have several individual units, usually lead by a lower nobility. then you have at the highest level the "king/emperor", who can lead wars, but the lower nobilities don't necessarily have to follow him. also you have economical unions like the "Hanse", which also has members outside the empire
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14:02:17  <JVassie> hmm
14:02:24  <JVassie> so mapping it across
14:02:28  <JVassie> a unit here is a player
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14:02:46  <JVassie> is a lower nobility a person or a collection of people?
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14:03:57  <Eddi|zuHause> if you have a feudalism-oriented empire, then the player would be a noble person leading a small section of land, he can be promoted to higher nobility, which means he has several lower nobilities below him
14:04:34  <Eddi|zuHause> feudalism usually means you have family-oriented alliance lines
14:04:49  <JVassie> right
14:05:30  <JVassie> need to map this to a space theme/context
14:05:39  <Eddi|zuHause> if you're the leader of the Habsburg family, you control like 1/3 of the entire empire directly through your family
14:05:47  <JVassie> :p
14:06:13  <Eddi|zuHause> and the rest indirectly because you are king
14:06:52  <JVassie> let me try to map it out then
14:07:00  <JVassie> a player controls one or more planets
14:13:11  <krinn> you can just map to mayor, president... that the same
14:13:11  <Eddi|zuHause> if you are modeling a democracy-oriented federation, then you probably lose the family ties
14:13:11  <krinn> but this define a nation, not an alliance
14:13:11  <krinn> as even hambur prince mary french princess, france won't fall under hambur's reign
14:13:11  <krinn> france nation remain one, germany too
14:13:11  <Eddi|zuHause> the concept of "nation" didn't really exist in medieval times
14:13:11  <krinn> i think it was, just the main rule was, the bigger military rules you
14:13:11  <krinn> and as soon as military power decline, nation take again their freedom to become what they were before
14:13:11  <krinn> see england and rome, taking england doesn't gave you roman/english, just english under roman power
14:13:11  <krinn> so english under rome rules were still see them as english nation
14:13:11  <JVassie> a player might wish to work with one or more other players, wether for economic or military gain and form a 'tier1' collective
14:13:11  <JVassie> *tier2
14:13:11  <JVassie> sorry
14:13:11  <JVassie> this tier2 collective, might wish to come together with another tier2 collective, more likely for military gain, and form a tier 3 collective
14:13:11  <JVassie> does that make sense Eddi?
14:13:11  <JVassie> Eddi|zuHause: I think to start with at least there is no numerical need for a collection larger than a tier 3 I think
14:18:39  <krinn> imo there's no military alliance ever: only economic one
14:18:39  <Eddi|zuHause> "nation" (from french naître - being born) is a concept of modern times, where states control people with close ties (like a common language and culture)
14:18:39  <Eddi|zuHause> the concept of "nationalism" in germany was propagated especially under napoleon's rule
14:18:39  <Eddi|zuHause> the german empire of 1871 was the first to classify as a "nation state" in the traditional sense. germany thus was one of the last countries to pursue that concept
14:18:39  <JVassie> woah lag
14:18:39  <JVassie> im trying to keep it relatively simple krinn :p
14:20:16  <Eddi|zuHause> <krinn> see england and rome, taking england doesn't gave you roman/english, just english under roman power <-- there were no english in england while england was under roman rule. the anglos and saxons came to england after the romans left.
14:20:33  <JVassie> :p
14:20:38  <krinn> :D
14:21:35  <Eddi|zuHause> there were a bunch of celtic tribes, but "nation" is slightly overstated
14:21:45  <JVassie> krinn, why wouldnt there by a military gain for multiple players coming together
14:22:04  <JVassie> if there were a cluster of planets owned by a group of players collectively
14:22:16  <JVassie> a single player couldnt come along and take it by himself
14:23:28  <krinn> but it would attack for only the reason to own it : economical reason, not military one
14:24:03  <JVassie> attacking in itself is a military action though
14:24:05  <JVassie> though i agree
14:24:13  <JVassie> there isnt really such thing as a military gain
14:24:23  <JVassie> military is a means to an end
14:24:29  <Eddi|zuHause> "military is just economics by other means" :p
14:24:35  <JVassie> economic, political or religious
14:24:37  <krinn> see that: me & you make an alliance to military kick my neighbourg ass: it would be military only if you say, it's ok, i'll do it for free and don't want his land... even i'm not fear by him
14:24:39  <Eddi|zuHause> (slightly paraphrased :p)
14:24:50  <JVassie> heh Eddi :p
14:25:01  <JVassie> on the other hand
14:25:06  <JVassie> this is a game not real life
14:25:21  <JVassie> and the repurcussions of failing in a game arent quite as severe as on a real battlefield
14:25:22  <JVassie> hence
14:25:37  <JVassie> that givers a lot of players their love of attacking just for the fun of it
14:25:42  <JVassie> to prove they can win
14:26:00  <krinn> lol, because you think ones that decide to attack are the ones on the battlefield in real life ?
14:26:18  <JVassie> :s
14:26:40  <JVassie> i didnt allude to that at all
14:27:13  <krinn> repercussions for sarkozy batteling somewhere is not that severe for him : we will not kill him
14:27:22  <krinn> but our men are dying
14:27:26  <JVassie> your missing the point a little here ;)
14:27:42  <krinn> i know i know :)
14:28:26  <JVassie> unofrtunately i guess im a little undecided on a lot of the mechanics for the game
14:28:30  <JVassie> *unfortunately
14:29:00  <krinn> but in game it will be that way too: if it's last man standing, you will have military alliance indeed, but to achieve that, players will use their economic, so at end, it's again economical alliance
14:29:16  <JVassie> <JVassie> though i agree
14:29:16  <JVassie> <JVassie> there isnt really such thing as a military gain
14:29:23  <krinn> or your game gave 100 units to everyone, no ressource/money to create new one...
14:29:23  <JVassie> :)
14:29:55  <JVassie> in my game
14:30:04  <JVassie> the individual doesnt represent a single unit
14:30:10  <planetmaker> diplomacy ftw ;-)
14:30:14  <JVassie> it represents a 'commander', or essentially
14:30:20  <JVassie> the owner of one or more planets and everything on them
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14:32:16  <krinn> someone must have said that war is also a diplomatic form :)
14:32:44  <planetmaker> isn't one the continuation of the other by different means?
14:34:35  <krinn> kinda yes
14:35:12  <krinn> as diplomacy is a prelude to war
14:36:10  <planetmaker> and vice versa ;-)
14:36:50  <krinn> except if you consider diplomacy after war the prelude to another one :P
14:37:19  <planetmaker> and thus the circle continues
14:38:04  <krinn> and never end, that's what i see on my tv each day ^^
14:40:33  <JVassie> anyway :p
14:41:56  <krinn> this channel is so philosophic :D
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14:56:23  <JVassie_> what did i miss?
14:56:39  <krinn> nothing
14:56:41  <Markk> Jupiter is not longer a planet.
14:56:56  <Markk> Your mom is now taking Jupiters place.
14:56:58  <Markk> :D
14:57:18  <JVassie_> gold * for you
14:57:37  <JVassie_> so yeah i guess krinn
14:57:54  <JVassie_> military action in this game would normally be for economic gain
14:58:12  <JVassie_> though not necessarily in the case of war
14:58:19  <JVassie_> thinking in the form of 'bashing' here
14:58:50  <planetmaker> luckily this is a military free game here ;-)
14:59:00  <planetmaker> except an occasional alien
14:59:22  <JVassie_> you missed the majority of the conversation i think planetmaker :p
14:59:45  <krinn> we don't have rockets, but i saw military act of war many times (ever build a rail in front of an ai/player station)
15:00:03  <JVassie_> Eddi|zuHause: happy with the definition of the tier system?
15:02:13  <JVassie_> krinn: you asked about numbers
15:02:27  <JVassie_> i will refer to these in terms of number of players (roughly of course)
15:02:36  <JVassie_> tier 1: 1 (a single player)
15:03:11  <JVassie_> tier 2: 1-100/1000
15:03:25  <JVassie_> tier 3: 1-1000/10000
15:03:55  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie_: what/how/where?
15:03:59  <JVassie_> there are ways the maximum numbers could be controlled
15:04:24  <JVassie_> Eddi|zuHause: re. my definitions of the tiers
15:04:32  <JVassie_> read up a ways
15:04:38  <JVassie_> im afraid i havent got the log
15:04:52  <krinn> well, why not then just use military ranks if it's military game?
15:05:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm afraid it got kinda buried in the discussion
15:05:05  <Eddi|zuHause> @logs
15:05:05  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
15:05:09  <JVassie_> ah hah
15:05:10  <krinn> 1: a mercenary 2: a lieutnant, 3 : colonel...
15:05:13  <JVassie_> didnt know about logs :p
15:05:16  <JVassie_> krinn
15:05:17  <JVassie_> noooo
15:05:21  <JVassie_> doesnt work like that :p
15:05:38  <krinn> i think it doesn't work at all :)
15:06:02  <JVassie_> ok let me rephrase
15:06:18  <JVassie_> these tiers are varying degrees of collections of players
15:06:33  <JVassie_> surely you mustve played a game where players could join a guild
15:06:57  <krinn> yep
15:07:36  <krinn> and as usual they use military ranks :)
15:07:49  <JVassie_> im not talking about within the guild
15:07:59  <JVassie_> they can use whatever internal ranks they like
15:08:12  <krinn> (or some forms of rank base on race... trool>gobelin>flower>barbara streisand)
15:08:13  <JVassie_> what im trying to drive at is how to categorize these groups of players
15:08:28  <JVassie_> and/or name them
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15:12:20  <krinn> i know, but it will be hard if you keep thinking about words that define no real limit
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15:12:28  <krinn> a nation as no real size limit
15:12:46  <krinn> would be easier if you use words that have a somehow define limit
15:13:00  <JVassie_> ok image incoming
15:13:04  <JVassie_> krinn: http://www.jvassie.net/mmo/hierarchy.png
15:13:19  <krinn> tier1: primitive tier2: hut tier3: village tier4: town tier5: city tier6 country...
15:13:39  <JVassie_> a rough indication of scale of numbers im envisioing
15:13:51  <JVassie_> does that help somewhat?
15:14:54  <krinn> as i said: a nation (the word) could represent anyone from tier2-4 in your example
15:15:13  <JVassie_> ok
15:15:21  <JVassie_> now lets apply those numbers to a space theme
15:15:48  <JVassie_> a single player
15:15:53  <JVassie_> is the owner of one or more planets
15:15:54  <krinn> a ship, orbital station, town, city, federation
15:16:14  <JVassie_> call it a planetdom xD
15:16:24  <krinn> you don't really need to have a word that represent the number of players, but a word that represent a rank
15:17:08  <krinn> for people, no one will care your tier3 is city, they will just get easy that "city rank" is greater than "hut rank" and smaller than "nation rank"
15:17:35  <JVassie_> :p
15:17:56  <JVassie_> there needs to be some status involved with forming these tiers
15:17:59  <JVassie_> benefits
15:18:02  <JVassie_> drawbacks
15:18:05  <JVassie_> costs
15:18:13  <JVassie_> requirements etc
15:18:17  <JVassie_> bragging rights ofc ;)
15:18:47  <krinn> (and traitors!)
15:19:13  <JVassie_> anyway
15:19:24  <JVassie_> i cant really call them tier 0 thru tier 4 ingame ;p
15:19:41  <JVassie_> and ideally i would like there to be a choice of 'names'
15:19:57  <JVassie_> like for example a tier 4 is either a federation, an empire or a republic
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15:23:40  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a matter of how you want to enforce your game rules
15:23:50  <JVassie_> pls expand
15:24:50  <Eddi|zuHause> like by joining a tier-0 alliance you will give up some control over your planet/city/whatever, but the extent of that control is given by the type of alliance
15:25:16  <Eddi|zuHause> like an empire will have strong control by an individual player
15:25:30  <Eddi|zuHause> a federation will have loose control
15:25:38  <Eddi|zuHause> and a republic something inbetween
15:25:53  <JVassie_> ok ill buy that
15:26:04  <krinn> about openttd: is there a way to add a label that is seen but have no purpose except showing infos in info.nut ? (if i need to explain an option i will run fast short of char space in the label of the option)
15:26:52  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: i don't think so
15:27:11  <JVassie_> now i just need names ;)
15:28:10  <JVassie_> unfortunately it is hard
15:28:19  <JVassie_> as what do you call someone who controls multiple planets?
15:28:56  <Eddi|zuHause> duchy/kingdom/empire/galactic empire
15:29:10  <krinn> emperor
15:29:18  <krinn> for an empire :p
15:29:22  <JVassie_> exactly
15:29:27  <Eddi|zuHause> duke/king/emperor/galactic emperor
15:29:49  <JVassie_> what do you call a collection of empires/emperors?
15:30:07  <krinn> a non sense :)
15:30:29  <JVassie_> were not far enough into the future
15:30:59  <Eddi|zuHause> county/province/republic/galactic republic
15:31:19  <JVassie_> province might work
15:31:25  <JVassie_> if it was geographical
15:31:37  <Eddi|zuHause> sherrif/governor/senator/galactic senator
15:31:46  <JVassie_> xD
15:31:52  <JVassie_> you know my next question?
15:32:02  <JVassie_> what do you call a group of republics?
15:32:03  <JVassie_> :/
15:32:25  <Eddi|zuHause> this is ordered smallest to largest
15:32:46  <krinn> "a shitload of badass"
15:33:27  <JVassie_> yep Eddi|zuHause
15:34:49  <JVassie_> so next up the scale?
15:35:30  <michi_cc> JVassie: What to call a group of republics is very much dependant on what the actual constituents of that group are. Are the acting members of that group republics or players?
15:36:09  <JVassie_> a republic is a collection of empires which are individual players
15:38:55  <michi_cc> And who/what has (on an abstract level) a voice in a group of republics? Is there one voice per republic or per empire?
15:39:33  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: a higher level alliance is always consisting of next-lower level constituencies. so a group of players choose to either form a duchy or a county, a group of duchies then can choose to form a kingdom, a group of counties can choose to form a province, a non-homogenous group of duchies and counties can form a confederation
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15:40:05  <JVassie_> exactly Eddi|zuHause
15:40:06  <Eddi|zuHause> so you have: -/confederation/federation/galactic federation as the "inhomogenous" allances
15:40:12  <JVassie_> oh
15:40:15  <JVassie_> i see what your doing
15:40:26  <JVassie_> :)
15:40:41  <JVassie_> duchy/kingdom/empire/galactic empire
15:40:41  <JVassie_> county/province/republic/galactic republic
15:40:55  <JVassie_> confederation/federation/galactic federatio
15:41:08  <JVassie_> tier1/2/3/4 yeh?
15:41:14  <Eddi|zuHause> yep
15:41:23  <JVassie_> cept federation has only got 3
15:41:48  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it doesn't make a lot of sense in the lowest level
15:42:03  <Eddi|zuHause> a kingdom can only consist of duchies
15:42:13  <Eddi|zuHause> a province can only consist of counties
15:42:14  <JVassie_> can you substitue duchy for domain?
15:42:26  <Eddi|zuHause> a confederation can consist of both counties and duchies
15:42:36  <Eddi|zuHause> (but has fewer benefits)
15:43:12  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie_: sounds odd...
15:43:18  <JVassie_> hmm
15:44:24  <JVassie_> the main problem is that the games singular player is by definition a controller of one or more planets
15:45:00  <JVassie_> alternatively
15:45:09  <JVassie_> i change that
15:45:52  <JVassie_> and a player only ever controls a single planet
15:46:06  <JVassie_> would that make defining names any easier?
15:46:45  <Eddi|zuHause> may make the concept slightly clearer
15:46:51  <Eddi|zuHause> but it may work either way
15:47:18  <JVassie_> hmm
15:47:19  <JVassie_> difficult
15:47:36  <JVassie_> as one of the drivings concepts behind the game is taking the 'size' of it to the next level
15:47:45  <Eddi|zuHause> if you can control multiple planets, it may be possible that if you get elected county sherrif, you may give away control of your planets to concentrate on the job of controlling the county
15:48:32  <planetmaker> actually a game which fails to do so would result in micromanagement hassle
15:48:45  <JVassie_> perhaps a trip to the drawing board is required on that idea
15:49:03  <Eddi|zuHause> yep, as galactic emperor it might be too much of a hassle to also controll your tiny home planet
15:49:08  <JVassie_> planetmaker: depends what controlling the county actually consists of
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15:49:51  <planetmaker> of course. But then another planet enters the arena. Or another.... etc :-)
15:50:15  <planetmaker> and you end up with setting the same thing N times on every planet. Boring
15:50:24  <JVassie_> :p
15:51:00  <planetmaker> managing a planet individually is only interesting if it's all you do
15:51:25  <JVassie_> yeah
15:51:29  <JVassie_> i see what you mean
15:51:32  <planetmaker> you might keep the option. But it needs tools or presets to ease the task
15:51:53  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie_: i was thinking the leader can give some basic goals (like a production queue, or fleet orders), and the individual planets may follow those orders or choose to override them
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15:52:09  <planetmaker> enough games fail exactly on this point. They scale badly when the player gains power and influence
15:52:17  <JVassie> hmm
15:52:29  <planetmaker> i.e. the player is not offered the necessary sub-ordinates and consultants
15:52:49  <planetmaker> i.e. the tools don't grow with the player
15:52:56  <JVassie> see what you mean
15:53:07  <JVassie> though it does depends what 'managing the tier' entails really
15:53:11  <JVassie> as if its just decision making
15:53:18  <JVassie> strategic/tactical planning
15:54:22  <planetmaker> It doesn't really depend on that, IFF the player can gain influence over more "units" - whatever those units are, planets, single people...
15:54:51  <planetmaker> and iff he shall be allowed to increase his influence continuously
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15:56:17  <JVassie> a leader is just the person everyone (in theory) elects to follow
15:56:31  <JVassie> so if the leader decides the collective will all send their units somewhere
15:56:35  <JVassie> the leader only has to say that
15:56:38  <JVassie> and move his own units
15:57:46  <Eddi|zuHause> so like the emperor controls his flagship and hopes that his kings follow it?
15:58:00  <JVassie> in essence i guess yes
15:58:01  <Eddi|zuHause> without any way to influence/interfer?
15:58:30  <JVassie> hmm
15:58:32  <Eddi|zuHause> (that kinda makes the distinction between empire and republic irrelevant)
15:58:58  <JVassie> that would mean though that the 'boss' would control all of his underlings units
15:59:00  <planetmaker> :-) The decision where control is an interesting one. And crucial :-)
15:59:03  <JVassie> and give each of them nothing to do
15:59:41  <Eddi|zuHause> well. the emperor could concentrate on handling the fleet, while the kings concentrate on producing supplies
16:00:30  <Eddi|zuHause> or the empire concentrates on the strategy, the kings controll separate parts of the fleet to meet the strategy, and the dukes concentrate on supplies
16:01:10  <JVassie> that would still mean the dukes handing over control of their units to their king
16:01:25  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
16:01:26  <planetmaker> yes... it all depends on how many single ships the fleet has and how supplies are produced
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16:01:58  <Eddi|zuHause> dukes would sign over more control to their king than sherrifs would to their governor
16:03:14  <JVassie> well in terms of a 'servers' lifetime
16:03:30  <JVassie> a duke would start with 0 ships
16:03:38  <JVassie> the first ship being a huge milestone
16:03:52  <JVassie> but as time progresses
16:04:11  <JVassie> it would go from 1, to 10s, to 100s, to 1000s, etc
16:04:39  <JVassie> there is in theory no limit, though limits could be imposed through means such as research, skills, technology or the like
16:04:48  <JVassie> or planetary capacity
16:04:49  <JVassie> etc
16:04:59  <Eddi|zuHause> gtg
16:05:19  <JVassie> :(
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16:06:56  <JVassie> further thoughts planetmaker ?
16:07:48  <planetmaker> not at the moment
16:08:25  <planetmaker> and I'm not clear about the aim and setting, so... :-)
16:08:34  <JVassie> :)
16:08:42  <JVassie> im enjoying the discussion though
16:08:58  <JVassie> i always tend to think better during than a discussion than on my own
16:09:09  <JVassie> im not gifted very well in the imagination department :x
16:09:16  <planetmaker> that's the power of the collective
16:10:04  <planetmaker> it can help also to work out thoughts more clearly
16:10:37  <JVassie> :)
16:10:57  <JVassie> its an interesting concept
16:11:05  <JVassie> giving control of your units over to your leader
16:11:08  <JVassie> it belies trust
16:11:42  <JVassie> which is hopefully the reason you follow them
16:13:03  <planetmaker> trust usually has to be earned.
16:13:30  <planetmaker> and has to be of advantage somehow
16:14:04  <planetmaker> one way would be to give a bonus to multi-player armies in some way
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16:14:22  <JVassie> you mean an army consisting of multiple players fleets
16:14:27  <planetmaker> yes
16:14:36  <JVassie> controlled by a single person i guess?
16:14:41  <planetmaker> yes
16:14:55  <JVassie> so a bonus for having a single leader
16:15:24  <planetmaker> yes
16:15:53  <JVassie> or alternatively/alongside a penalty for multi player fleets with multiple people
16:16:14  <planetmaker> like in vgaplanets it usually is advantageous if you have an ally and you can remote control his ships
16:16:50  <planetmaker> as you then have access to other ship designs and his racial ability and the advantage of having the units interact perfectly
16:17:07  <planetmaker> the latter is otherwise only possible by much e-mail exchange
16:19:12  <JVassie> hmm
16:20:55  <Eddi|zuHause> <short intermezzo before i am really gone> imagine it like this: if you as a governor decide to join a republic, you sign an agreement that x% of your military budget (meaning ships and troops) is to be dedicated as "republican army", while the other y% you can control yourself as "national guard"
16:21:10  <JVassie> :)
16:21:14  <JVassie> i like that idea Eddi|zuHause
16:21:19  <JVassie> i suppose it also adds another dimension to the game
16:21:24  <JVassie> stops it being repetitive
16:21:50  <JVassie> though it might hard to give enough 'play time oppurtunity' for a commander or such, even if they have armies at their disposal
16:21:54  <JVassie> hmm
16:21:57  <JVassie> interesting
16:22:19  <JVassie> and i suppose x% and y% would be in a range determined by being in the empire or ferderation or republic chain?
16:22:30  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
16:23:01  <planetmaker> would make sense
16:23:23  <Eddi|zuHause> the republican army would then be used in global defense/conquering campaigns, and your national guard you can use to suppress piracy and uprisings (e.g. on formerly conquered planets) within your territory
16:24:13  <Eddi|zuHause> a player who got his planet conquered may either choose to join the new empire, or control a rebellion
16:24:36  <Eddi|zuHause> </intermezzo>
16:24:50  <JVassie> nice ideas
16:24:59  <JVassie> thanks :)
16:25:30  <JVassie> multiple planets per player might still work then
16:26:39  <JVassie> perhaps tied into what tier you have access to? ie your in a tier 1, which is in a tier 2, which is in a tier 3 would grant you x privilges, whilst also being in a tier 4 would grant you y and z too
16:26:58  <JVassie> though in this case, it gives you access to more planets
16:27:04  <JVassie> through fundng or some such
16:27:06  <JVassie> 8shrug*
16:27:20  <JVassie> perhaps the ability to 'colonise' a planet only rests with a tier 2 or higher authority
16:28:57  <JVassie> which again could be tied into sovereignty somehow
16:29:21  <JVassie> ie the 'ownership' of space not just planets
16:29:26  <JVassie> or systems of planets
16:33:47  <krinn> openttd: 1/ do rail station could have a different length ? (i mean half a tile per example) and 2/ what "size" a tile is ?
16:34:30  <planetmaker> tile is tile
16:34:42  <krinn> nah, wagon can be less than a tile :)
16:34:45  <planetmaker> stations are always quantized in tile lengths
16:34:47  <krinn> i mean that size
16:34:57  <krinn> ok so station is easy
16:35:13  <planetmaker> if you know about non-track tiles ;-)
16:35:36  <krinn> oh shit, what's taht ?
16:36:32  <krinn> i mean nobody could (or has made) a station with a half track somewhere in it (so i could assume station = tile*stationsize)
16:36:53  <planetmaker> yes. But you can't assume that every station tile has tracks
16:37:04  <krinn> and for vehicle, what length is ? a number of pixels?
16:37:11  <krinn> one has made rail station without tracks ?
16:37:23  <planetmaker> plenty. And no vehicle can drive there
16:37:32  <planetmaker> do you actually sometimes play the game? :-)
16:37:43  <JVassie> hahah
16:37:44  <krinn> that's newGRF station (i don't know any grf that have that)
16:37:52  <JVassie> :x
16:37:59  <JVassie> MBs newstatiosn was one of the first iirc
16:38:02  <JVassie> *newstations
16:38:02  <planetmaker> err... then you never used any station newgrf
16:38:09  <JVassie> *blink*
16:38:13  <JVassie> i hope hes joking
16:38:31  * krinn not newGRF fan, too much hard to use them with load that one first, not with that one...
16:39:23  <planetmaker> you tried the wrong newgrfs ;-)
16:39:45  <krinn> my last try (just now) was one UKRS2 + one that made wagons refitable, and openttd bail out, no matter the order of load
16:40:09  <planetmaker> ukrs2 makes wagons refittable on its own...
16:40:25  <krinn> but the other made default wagons refitable
16:40:35  <krinn> (and not with stupid prices ^^ )
16:40:40  <planetmaker> and pikka requires to set some parameter so that his newgrfs work with other same-type newgrfs
16:40:44  <krinn> but it seems i cannot manage to have both load
16:40:55  <planetmaker> that's an intentional complication on his part
16:41:12  <krinn> must be why i can't play with them :)
16:41:15  <planetmaker> you can most probably. If you read the parameters of ukrs2
16:41:21  <planetmaker> and set the proper one
16:41:47  <krinn> using banana, downloading a newgrf to finally put my hands in grease to let it run ? nah
16:41:49  <planetmaker> give ogfx+trains a shot... no complications, it will on its part work with any ;-)
16:42:10  <krinn> will do, i need some to see AI running with them
16:42:37  <planetmaker> well, you obviously should get some first-hand experience of what newgrfs actually do...
16:42:46  <krinn> OpenGFX+Trains this one ?
16:42:52  <planetmaker> yeah
16:43:05  <planetmaker> it's default trains re-implemented and made refittable
16:43:34  <JVassie> need to summarise all those ideas now :x
16:43:35  <krinn> ah great, as long as i just have to add it and openttd won't complain, it's ok for me
16:43:51  <planetmaker> most newgrfs work that way: add and you're good
16:43:53  <krinn> planetmaker, about engine size? it's pixel ?
16:44:09  <planetmaker> add also chips and industrial stations renewal
16:44:26  <planetmaker> engine size... which size?
16:44:37  <planetmaker> probably you mean the one in 1/16 of a tile length
16:44:47  <krinn> engine size gave an engine size, but what size is that?
16:44:52  <krinn> oh 1/16 a tile
16:45:09  <planetmaker> default vehicles and engines are 8/16
16:45:12  <planetmaker> half a tile
16:45:29  <planetmaker> vehicles cannot be longer than 8/16. Granularity is 1/16
16:45:37  <krinn> if a train comes in a station too small, no loading may occur ?
16:46:00  <planetmaker> try it
16:46:02  <planetmaker> compare time
16:46:17  <krinn> just to know, i'm more woried about the train blocking station signal :)
16:46:34  <krinn> so i need to calc train length vs station length as i was thinking
16:47:50  <krinn> OpenGFX industries add newgrf or industries stuff (like milk...) ?
16:48:09  <krinn> just saw that one, looks fun
16:48:10  <planetmaker> newgrf and industry stuff are not mutually exclusive
16:48:31  <planetmaker> and no, it doesn't add new cargos. But it allows you to select industry chains from all climates
16:48:51  <planetmaker> i.e. you can have all industries concurrently
16:49:13  <krinn> like tropical sawmill or water
16:49:30  <krinn> i like that
17:11:17  <JVassie> <JVassie> planetmaker; have shared my current project ideas/features spec with you :)
17:11:17  <JVassie> <JVassie> (on googledocs)
17:11:25  <JVassie> dunno if you saw the query
17:12:05  <planetmaker> yes, I do. Thanks
17:36:21  <Belugas> that's what she said, 21 years ago
17:37:28  <andythenorth> canals above snowline show temperate sprites
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17:39:13  <planetmaker> sounds like (new?)grf bug
17:40:04  <planetmaker> yes. Bug in ttd / openttd.grf
17:40:14  <andythenorth> yes
17:41:49  <planetmaker> @base 16 10 41
17:41:49  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 65
17:42:28  <JVassie> @base over 9000
17:42:28  <DorpsGek> JVassie: Error: 'over' is not a valid base.
17:43:17  <planetmaker> actually... it *always* shows temperate canals
17:43:38  <planetmaker> Did noone ever build canals with the TTD baseset?
17:45:30  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22855 /trunk/src/lang/ (dutch.txt greek.txt romanian.txt russian.txt):
17:45:30  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:30  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 2 changes by habell
17:45:30  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: greek - 6 changes by kyrm
17:45:30  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: romanian - 2 changes by kkmic
17:45:32  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: russian - 3 changes by Lone_Wolf, perk11
17:49:35  <JVassie> lemme know your thoughts PM :)
17:50:35  <planetmaker> hm, /me wonders whether George has graphics for rivers for all terrain types and not only temperate
17:50:48  <planetmaker> errm... for canals. Not rivers
17:51:12  <frosch123> check ttdpatch base graphics
17:51:38  <frosch123> might be possible that ottd < 0.6 dropped the sprites of the other climates, since there was no action7 in the basegraphics
17:52:12  <planetmaker> hm... why has OpenTTD less? Yes, it'd require action7... actually also action2 in order to decide snow yes/no
17:52:22  <planetmaker> thus I ponder to add a new action5
17:52:38  <planetmaker> but wonder also whether that might be... over the top
17:52:46  <George> planetmaker: > me wonders whether George has graphics for canals for all terrain types and not only temperate
17:52:48  <George> Yes
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17:52:55  <frosch123> why a new action5? there is action123
17:53:07  <planetmaker> frosch123: possibly not idea in base graphics?
17:53:17  <planetmaker> like openttd.grf
17:53:20  <frosch123> rivers do the same
17:53:28  <planetmaker> I know.
17:53:37  <planetmaker> ok, so we use that, I'm fine with it
17:53:44  <frosch123> and action7 is definitely fine
17:53:55  <planetmaker> yes, action7 is.
17:54:11  <planetmaker> George: do you have the canal sprites somewhere more convenient than in ttdpatch.grf?
17:54:55  <George> http://george.zernebok.net/temp/canalsw.grf ?
17:55:02  <George> Or you want PSD?
17:55:17  <planetmaker> I thought just about a graphics file, yes
17:55:31  <planetmaker> might be more conveniently arranged
17:55:48  <planetmaker> though... canals.grf might give me all offsets and stuff for free :-)
17:55:49  <Ammler> I would use the grf, else you need to code...
17:56:00  <planetmaker> and if you'd allow me to incorporate that in openttd.grf
17:56:47  <frosch123> planetmaker: ttdpbase graphics have canals for different climates
17:57:20  <planetmaker> you mean I should just copy that? :-)
17:57:23  <George> planetmaker: http://george.zernebok.net/temp/canals/ - is it what you want?
17:57:36  <planetmaker> yup :-)
17:58:23  <JVassie> lol dikes.psd
18:04:41  <planetmaker> George: the one in ttdpbase.grf are yours, too, right (they look the same)?
18:05:05  <planetmaker> then I might indeed just copy those and the related code...
18:05:15  <George> Yes
18:05:32  <planetmaker> thanks a lot :-)
18:06:39  <George> JVassie: dike = "каЌеММая ПграЎа" What's wrong?
18:06:55  <JVassie> english phrase ;)
18:06:57  <JVassie> for lesbian
18:07:35  <George> And how would you call stone wall?
18:07:45  <SmatZ> like, there's a stone wall between you and them?
18:07:55  <planetmaker> quay ?
18:08:01  <JVassie> stoen wall is a stone wall
18:08:04  <JVassie> *stone
18:08:08  <JVassie> cobbled wall maybe
18:08:11  <JVassie> *shrug*
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18:08:40  <George> my vocabulary says it is dike
18:10:41  <frosch123> so do the grf specs
18:10:58  <George> quay - is a function. What the dike is used for. As I can understand the article in the dictionary
18:11:00  <frosch123> so i guess it is JVassie's fault of being a native speaker :p
18:11:07  <JVassie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dike
18:11:15  <JVassie> technically its Dyke for lesbian
18:12:52  <LordAro> evenings
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18:14:05  <Wolf01> hello
18:14:11  <krinn> hi
18:15:24  <planetmaker> hi LordAro
18:15:27  <planetmaker> and hi Wolf01
18:15:52  <LordAro> hi planetmaker
18:16:41  <krinn> is a train engine a wagon ?
18:17:00  <planetmaker> the other way around would be more interesting :-)
18:17:13  <planetmaker> an engine is a wagon with power. technically
18:17:44  <krinn> french make the diff, locomotive vs wagons
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18:30:11  <LordAro> no one want to comment on http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4617 ? :P
18:31:22  <SmatZ> LordAro: I see the openttd icon in my KDE-based gentoo system
18:31:24  <krinn> it's a request for ubuntu, i have a dollar sign within an orange triangle here
18:31:42  <Eliandor> Eh, I guess using Visual C++ 2010 Express will work fine for contributing to OpenTTD as well, right?
18:32:02  <krinn> smatZ, gentoo rules ;)
18:32:20  <SmatZ> Eliandor: I guess so :)
18:32:23  <SmatZ> krinn: yeah :)
18:32:26  <LordAro> SmatZ: i do too for my own compiled versions, but not for the downloaded-from-openttd.org-versions
18:32:30  <Eliandor> Cheers SmatZ, I'll try that.
18:33:06  <Eliandor> I have to contribute to a community for my school + I've loved OpenTTD for a long time + I want to learn C++ (experienced in C#, PHP, Java) so this will be good :3
18:33:36  <Eliandor> I'll probably ask around what makes sense to help on though, heh.
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18:34:21  <SmatZ> Eliandor: great :)
18:36:31  <planetmaker> the development forum is a good source of inspiration as is our bug tracker
18:37:00  <SmatZ> LordAro: I would test ubuntu binaries, but I am missing liblzma.*
18:37:07  <Eliandor> Alright planetmaker, I am on the forum / I do visit the bug tracker, but I just can't make sense yet of /how/ I should help (and on what branch... if any)
18:37:22  <krinn> Eliandor, hint hint ! look here : http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=56022&sid=fe162e4df163b74520bcee594b972522
18:37:30  <planetmaker> always work on trunk
18:37:35  <Eliandor> Alright
18:37:53  <Eliandor> I got to write a planning document for my school too, with a small outline of what I could do... I'll work on discovering that first XD
18:38:07  <Eliandor> Thanks krinn, I'm reading that stuff now :)
18:38:19  <planetmaker> my advise is also to use rather hg than svn as it nicer with patches and has the whole history, but that's a matter of taste mostly
18:38:32  <krinn> this is new feature, so i think it's easier to make your teeth on that
18:38:44  <Eliandor> Oh, right. I finally got used to SVN and GIT, but I guess learning HG won't be so new.
18:39:12  <Eliandor> That's great then krinn, I had been looking for a new thing in the trunk that I can work on (but I found that most dev was on patches/non-trunk stuff atm)
18:39:28  <planetmaker> newgrf stuff is... quite into the game core :-)
18:39:59  <Eliandor> Yea, I know that, but somehow I overlooked this post. ^.^%
18:40:49  <Eliandor> So is code written for the AIAirport API in the current nightlies? (so I don't have to check out something else?)
18:41:13  <krinn> i think this should be ask to zuu, i'm not sure he create a branch for that
18:41:17  <Eliandor> I also need to get used to working on projects where /a lot/ of others work on... ~_~" it used to be just me and my friend, even GIT sometimes was too much.
18:41:21  <Eliandor> Alright I will, thanks.
18:41:31  <krinn> and i think (current) code from zuu in within the forum thread
18:41:41  <planetmaker> Eliandor: what about drag&drop terraforming in the scenario editor?
18:41:42  <krinn> and i also think he is the only one working on that
18:42:22  <Eliandor> Okay, I got that as an option too planetmaker, I'm just writing down all kind of stuff now so I can read through it & decide on what to develop later
18:42:25  <planetmaker> or: giving money to other companies currently works only by giving it to players
18:42:36  <planetmaker> that's stupid. It's given to companies. Thus that interface could change
18:42:47  <Eliandor> Oh that's good too @_@"" heh.
18:43:10  <planetmaker> those are both small patches. But good to get into it
18:43:42  <krinn> lol i think Eliandor should take care of what "small patch" is for planetmaker
18:43:47  <planetmaker> or: from scenario editor: add a menu entry so that one can start the map from within as new game directly
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18:43:48  <Eliandor> The drag&drop thing sounds sort of big to me, but mostly because I wouldn't know where to drag it from (like the copy and paste thing?)
18:44:04  <Eliandor> Hah that last one sounds do-able
18:44:28  <planetmaker> the drag&drop exists ingame. But not in the scenario editor :-)
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18:45:08  <Eliandor> Oh, alright. Do you mean the lowering terrain by dragging?
18:45:12  <planetmaker> yes
18:45:17  <krinn> but planetmaker suggest involve yourself only, while my suggest involve zuu too, if he wish, might be better to start with someone working on it too (for advises, tests)
18:46:04  <Eliandor> Alright. I got all four of these suggestions now, I have to do like ~56 hours of work (at least) so I might end up doing more than one thing (depending on how easy/hard it is for me)
18:46:18  <Eliandor> Anyway I'm really charmed by the suggestions already, thanks again :3
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18:47:12  <planetmaker> need another idea? ;-)
18:47:16  <LordAro> Eliandor: some advice: don't take on a project that you have no idea how to complete :)
18:47:26  * krinn is sure it wouldn't be a good idea to suggest opengl with collision detection
18:47:41  <Eliandor> planetmaker no I'll be fine for now, just gonna look around first
18:47:45  <planetmaker> add a cheat which allows deleting AI companies
18:47:48  <fjb> Moin
18:48:04  <krinn> lol planetmaker
18:48:06  <Eliandor> LordAro: the goal of this project is to get involved in a community + to learn C++ (for me), so I'll be fine.
18:48:11  <planetmaker> krinn: no, seriously
18:48:21  <krinn> hit reload?
18:48:23  <planetmaker> players cannot do that currently w/o console usage
18:48:28  <krinn> or you mean some kind of AI stop?
18:48:32  <planetmaker> that loads the same AI again
18:48:43  <planetmaker> yes. the cheat would exercise ai_stop
18:48:52  <krinn> well, i have implement the ai.stop but never seen it use yet
18:49:02  <Eliandor> Hehe, I wrote that down too :3 that sounds pretty easy too.
18:49:24  <planetmaker> not sure it's the easiest, though :-)
18:49:26  <Eliandor> Is there anything I should know about committing that kind of stuff? Do I just push it again (GIT speaking, don't know what it is in HG)
18:49:38  <planetmaker> easiest probably is the change of how money is transfered between companies
18:49:40  <Eliandor> I'll just try a few things out :)
18:49:49  <planetmaker> it's just GUI changes after all
18:49:52  <LordAro> Eliandor: that was my goal too... i think certain people are getting tired of me asking for help :L
18:50:19  <Eliandor> X-D
18:50:20  <krinn> hence the work with a co-pilot suggest
18:51:27  <LordAro> "Eliandor: some advice: don't take on a project that you have no idea how to complete :)" <-- refinement: don't take on a project that primarily involves the 2 aspects of coding you hate the most :)
18:51:29  <Eliandor> It's a good suggestion, I also prefer to work with someone (especially if it's on something new), but well, a few of these things don't sound too bad to do by myself...
18:51:44  <Eliandor> Haha, I love learning, does that count?
18:51:49  <LordAro> for me, chars and pointers
18:51:53  <Eliandor> Oh.
18:52:49  <devilsadvocate> chars are nice
18:52:51  <krinn> hating pointers and working with C is hmmmm, like hating flying for an aviator no?
18:52:53  <Eliandor> I don't really have something in coding I really don't like. Well. Except for being unable to extend a Singleton class (which is completely logical, but it's annoying).
18:52:55  <devilsadvocate> pointers too
18:53:03  <devilsadvocate> pointer arithmatic sucks
18:54:32  <Eliandor> So are the differences between HG, SVN and GIT so big that I shouldn't use GIT?
18:54:43  <pjpe> use whatever you want
18:54:46  <pjpe> it's not like it really matters
18:55:08  <planetmaker> it's about what you're comfortable with, indeed
18:55:12  <Eliandor> Okido
18:55:35  <planetmaker> but I learnt that when writing patches a distributed vcs is nicer
18:55:43  <planetmaker> I can change versions without server access
18:55:48  <devilsadvocate> unless what you're comfotable with is CVS
18:55:59  <devilsadvocate> or VSS
18:56:05  <krinn> and couldn't be resume to use 3 scripts, one to upload, one to commit and one to download (using hg or svn or git) no?
18:56:24  <pjpe> vss
18:56:27  <pjpe> is that the microsoft one?
18:56:31  <devilsadvocate> yeah
18:56:39  <pjpe> i think i've heard nothing but bad things about that
18:56:45  <pjpe> don't know who would use it
18:56:47  <devilsadvocate> its a nightmare
18:56:59  <devilsadvocate> that comes integrated with VS, iirc
18:58:00  <krinn> that's MS story (asp, ie javascript...) always redo like others, but just bad
18:58:44  <krinn> except maybe silverlight, but it would have been really hard to do worst than adobe
18:59:29  <michi_cc> Eliandor: Personally I use git for all my OpenTTD patches. Only SVN has the disadvantage that you can't create a patch series without additional tools. And frankly, most useful changes need a patch series instead of one big patch if it should be easy to understand and review.
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19:00:06  <Eliandor> Thanks michi_cc, I am going to use git (because I sort of get how it works and am used to making small patch series)
19:00:26  <planetmaker> that's why I use hg ;-)
19:01:13  <Terkhen> yeah, if you are going to make lots of patches either one should be fine
19:01:42  <michi_cc> HG is preferred by some people because it's usage is more similar to SVN than git is, but if you already know git, there's no need to use HG instead.
19:02:25  <krinn> planetmaker, newgrf can change length by cargo type ?
19:02:43  <planetmaker> yes
19:03:03  <krinn> damnit! i should ask what they cannot do to bug me !
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19:03:53  <Eliandor> So, I'd use vs100.sln, right? (or is there another project file where the trunk is on?)
19:06:08  <michi_cc> I do wonder if HG is really easier though each time I read about too many heads or strange merges here or in associated channels :p
19:06:30  <michi_cc> Eliandor: You use the project file that corresponds to your visual studio version. vs100 is 2010.
19:06:54  <Eliandor> Oh, right. I thought it was version 1.x, fail.
19:06:59  <Eliandor> Alright that's great, thanks michi_cc
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19:07:28  <michi_cc> The trunk git repo is git://git.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.git
19:08:13  <glx> git on windows is dead slow
19:08:15  <planetmaker> and git needing packing and so on?
19:09:00  <Eliandor> Uh I got it cloned and everything in nearly no time glx (but I'm not sure whether that's the thing that is slow)
19:09:01  <michi_cc> I do have a git-svn clone of the whole OpenTTD repo (including all branches and tags) on my site at http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/git/svn_mirror.git, but for normal development the trunk clone is much preferred.
19:10:55  <michi_cc> planetmaker: git will automatically pack if needed. Manual packing is only required if you have special needs regarding disk space or high-performance hosting.
19:12:52  <Eliandor> Alright I'm going to make dinner, I'll be back later
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19:30:11  <andythenorth> FIRS 0.7.0-beta1 released :)
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19:30:54  <Ammler> #openttdcoop Bouncer fixed, no more mass parts/joins
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19:33:35  <LordAro> Ammler: :O
19:33:38  <LordAro> ;P
19:36:09  * andythenorth does \o/ to other FIRS contributors
19:36:30  <andythenorth> quite an epic conversion to nml
19:36:42  <LordAro> well done, andythenorth :)
19:37:07  <Ammler> thanks LordAro for pushing me :-P
19:37:20  <LordAro> no problem :P
19:37:40  <Ammler> oh, and thanks ^Spike^ for helping me, but he doesn't 100% believe, it is fixed ;-)
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19:43:09  <krinn> can newgrf change an engine size also by to whom it is attach?
19:43:29  <krinn>  /s/attach/attach with
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19:43:51  <krinn> or "just" depending on cargo type
19:44:49  <burtybob> Why would I not be able to buy out a company in single player mode? (It's a save game from an multiplayer game)
19:44:51  <planetmaker> IIRC they can also change upon a certain wagon being attached
19:45:21  <krinn> what a hell of a feature :(
19:45:34  <planetmaker> at least wagons can depending on which engine they're attached to
19:45:56  <planetmaker> not entirely sure about the reverse, but good guess here is "anything goes"
19:46:12  <planetmaker> thus the only safe way is "build exactly what you want and check"
19:46:20  <krinn> it's impossible to play with that!
19:46:21  <planetmaker> it's what a player can do only, too
19:46:32  <planetmaker> no, you see the length of the resulting train
19:46:45  <planetmaker> but evil newgrf authors can make life a pain
19:46:50  <krinn> yeah, but what if i consider building its length before see it
19:46:56  <planetmaker> and specs are not really sane in each point
19:47:14  <planetmaker> krinn: buy engine, attach wagon one by one. Done
19:47:27  <planetmaker> sell last when you exceed size
19:47:41  <krinn> not if you're trying to balance wagons with two trains
19:47:52  <planetmaker> "balance"?
19:48:13  <krinn> train length too big: remove wagon and put it in another train: balancing
19:48:38  <planetmaker> nah. just sell it
19:49:06  <krinn> and then how i can guess where i should buy a new train?
19:49:17  <planetmaker> in the depot ;-)
19:49:33  <planetmaker> you see where trains are needed by station rating
19:49:45  <krinn> say i try to find how many wagons i could use because of station size i have
19:49:46  <planetmaker> if bad: add another train
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19:50:17  <planetmaker> yes, and?
19:50:25  <planetmaker> buy a train of that length, done
19:50:39  <planetmaker> or slightly less. i.e. sell the last wagon, if longer
19:50:47  <krinn> but i would end with say a train with 5 wagons and one with 1 wagon
19:51:00  <krinn> while i'm trying to end with 2 trains with 3 wagons each (balancing)
19:51:08  <LordAro> burtybob: i believe there's a setting somewhere
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19:51:35  <planetmaker> krinn: just always buy full-length trains. done
19:51:50  <planetmaker> first buy one train. put it to service.
19:51:56  <planetmaker> add additional ones, if service is bad
19:52:05  <planetmaker> add another one always when service is bad
19:52:14  <planetmaker> (barring service is bad due to jams or alike
19:52:15  <planetmaker> )
19:52:37  <krinn> but my service could be good while i still need some more trains
19:53:03  <krinn> if my train goes & get back fast he might not have enough wagons to handle the cargo but still servicing is good
19:53:30  <planetmaker> not really. if you can't handle cargo, your rating will drop
19:53:53  <krinn> not what i seen with big stations
19:54:15  <krinn> the station produce real more cargo than you can handle, but you have enough trains to keep your rating high
19:54:45  <planetmaker> then make your decision process a combi of rating and waiting cargo...
19:55:19  <krinn> hence why i want balance: having 2 trains with 3 wagons is not the same as 2 with 1 wagon & 5 wagons
19:55:31  <krinn> see what i mean
19:55:48  <planetmaker> I don't see the problem you have :-)
19:55:56  <krinn> ^^
19:56:01  <planetmaker> you know your max train length. and you know your wagon number
19:56:06  <planetmaker> so...
19:56:19  <planetmaker> once you tested you also know how many wagons you can attach
19:56:27  <planetmaker> without exceeding your station length
19:57:12  <krinn> except if removing a wagon and adding it to the other engine change its length to something different
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19:57:25  <krinn> if i have two different engine puller
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20:01:44  <planetmaker> well, yes
20:01:44  <planetmaker> but you always know your length and you know what you should not exceed and... a good guess is the wagon length won't change
20:02:42  <krinn> with newGRF good guess, looks like always endup with bad results
20:03:51  <krinn> but i suppose i could assume the lenght of a wagon, and put a raw cut for each train after all work is done, kinda rought
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20:27:04  <Eliandor> (slow) clap for me, I got everything to compile! =X
20:28:36  <krinn> first step to hell :)
20:28:42  <Eliandor> :)
20:28:51  <LordAro> bet it segfaults :P
20:28:53  <SmatZ> :D
20:29:10  <krinn> i bet on compile fail @ 99%
20:29:13  <Eliandor> I don't know... but I managed to generate a new game and build a train statinon so heh. :X
20:30:16  <Eliandor> I'm pretty happy though, as you said krinn, first step to hell. Now only to write a good plan first so my school agrees with this (they no doubt will though)
20:30:43  <planetmaker> what's the time frame for that project?
20:30:51  <Eliandor> 10 weeks
20:30:55  <Eliandor> 56 hours
20:30:59  <Eliandor> 2 ec
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20:32:03  <Eliandor> The only real assigment from school is to participate in any kind of open content community. If I wanted to I could count lamp posts in my city and place them on Open Street Map, that's fine too.
20:32:57  <krinn> wonder what they will say if you tell them you help anonymous guys
20:33:14  <LordAro> :)
20:33:20  <planetmaker> I don't think we're really anonymous
20:33:31  <andythenorth> good night
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20:33:37  <krinn> not us :) anonymous the hacktivist
20:33:45  <Eliandor> Oh :')
20:33:51  <Eliandor> Hah, yea, I wonder too.
20:33:57  <planetmaker> :-P
20:34:02  <Eliandor> Well they need to approve your plan, so I guess they won't...
20:34:26  <krinn> but it meet your needs :)
20:34:30  <Eliandor> I'm gonna change my name here though so it's the same as on the forums >_> should've done that right away.
20:34:38  <frosch123> hmm, that school thingie sounds familiar. wasn't there a guy last year who wrote an ai for such a project?
20:34:46  <Eliandor> No, I'm not :)
20:34:50  <Eliandor> Oh
20:34:51  <Eliandor> Err.
20:34:55  <Eliandor> Lol, fail @ reading
20:35:02  <LordAro> frosch123: rocketAI?
20:35:11  <Eliandor> There might've been. I read about someone who researched train station placement, but that was over a year ago I think
20:35:20  <planetmaker> school projects are a recurrent pattern ;-)
20:35:22  <krinn> lol not me, or i miserably fail with the 50hours limit
20:35:31  *** Eliandor is now known as duizendnegen
20:36:07  <LordAro> duizendnegen: are you sure thats your name on the forums? i've never seen you before :P
20:36:16  <duizendnegen> Lol it's 1009
20:36:24  <duizendnegen> But it rejected that name here
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20:36:38  <duizendnegen> I tent to use 1009 on English-speaking places to avoid confusion
20:36:48  <krinn> try 1OO9 :)
20:36:51  <duizendnegen> tend*
20:36:58  <duizendnegen> Err that might work
20:37:04  <duizendnegen> Nope.
20:37:09  <duizendnegen> Can't start with a number
20:37:14  <duizendnegen> And l009 is... meh.
20:37:17  <TWerkhoven[l]> first char cant be a number
20:37:17  <krinn> eheh lOO9
20:37:18  <TWerkhoven[l]> try i009
20:37:21  <duizendnegen> :D
20:37:23  <TWerkhoven[l]> or that
20:37:23  <krinn> leet
20:37:28  <duizendnegen> loog
20:37:35  <duizendnegen> loog is the new leet?
20:37:40  <planetmaker> quite
20:37:45  *** duizendnegen is now known as _1009
20:37:49  <_1009> Yep, this is fine.
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20:40:14  <LordAro> still can't say i've seen you before :P
20:42:02  <_1009> Well it's not like I spammed the place
20:42:14  <_1009> I reviewed some AIs like two years ago
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21:00:16  <Terkhen> good night
21:00:25  <krinn> night too
21:00:27  <_1009> G'night everyone.
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21:05:19  <LordAro> night all
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21:33:56  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:43:02  <Eddi|zuHause> no, google, i do not want to give you my phone number.
21:43:25  <krinn> trying phonesex Eddi|zuHause  :)
21:46:45  * Eddi|zuHause does not want to know how you got that association
21:48:32  <krinn> :)
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22:38:57  <burtybob> Why would I not be able to buy 100% of a company in single player? (It is a save game from a multiplayer game)
22:40:14  <pjpe> check the settings
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22:44:58  <burtybob> I can buy up to and including 75% but I can't buy the last 25% it's greyed out
22:45:35  <Guest7778> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/838/bugb.png/ bug
22:46:06  <Sacro> bug?
22:47:58  <burtybob> It's only the companies that used to be run by players, however I already managed to buy one out :/
22:51:42  <Ammler> you can only buy bankrupt companies, afaik
22:52:20  <pjpe> you used to be able to buy shares of company and then own them couldn't you
22:55:05  <burtybob> Yeah in single player you can buy out (aka buy 100%) the companys and I managed it with one ex player company and works fine on the AIs that start up
22:55:52  <burtybob> However I can't buy out explayer companies anymore
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22:58:08  <pjpe> check under advanced settings
22:58:17  <pjpe> what does it say for the buying shares of companies
22:58:18  <pjpe> in the game
22:59:12  <burtybob> It's green and says ": On"
22:59:37  <pjpe> is there something about the max number of shares you can buy?
22:59:56  <burtybob> Not that I have ever seen or heard of
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