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00:04:08 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-043-077.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 00:04:25 *** tty234 [telex@anapnea.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:09:01 *** geheimdienst [~hk@p4FC947DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 00:21:12 *** tty234 [telex@anapnea.net] has joined #openttd 00:32:56 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 01:10:55 *** KritiK [~Maxim@176.14.180.54] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:35:32 *** Born_Acorn [~bornacorn@yoda.zernebok.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:35:32 *** Andel [~andel@owenrudge.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:35:33 *** orudge [~orudge@owenrudge.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:07:58 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:2c3f:6d56:c764:2984] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:08:11 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:2c3f:6d56:c764:2984] has joined #openttd 02:25:12 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-188-100-217-211.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 02:30:14 *** Andel [~andel@owenrudge.net] has joined #openttd 02:30:14 *** Born_Acorn [~bornacorn@yoda.zernebok.com] has joined #openttd 02:31:12 *** rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-206-134.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:46:41 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:2c3f:6d56:c764:2984] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:47:05 *** geheimdienst [~hk@p4FC947DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:13:16 *** Vadtec [~Vadtec@2001:470:1f06:13e0::1337] has joined #openttd 04:26:06 *** ProgVal [ProgVal@mrtiserv.openihs.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:26:17 *** ProgVal [ProgVal@mrtiserv.openihs.org] has joined #openttd 04:56:03 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73BCC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:56:18 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B738D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:54:13 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 05:56:20 <planetmaker> moin 06:00:45 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 06:05:19 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 06:13:20 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@027af850.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:25:03 *** roboboy [3aad2b37@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 06:25:18 *** roboboy [3aad2b37@ircip3.mibbit.com] has left #openttd [] 06:29:03 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice1n2.emea.ibm.com] has joined #openttd 06:29:16 <norbert79> Morning 06:34:57 <planetmaker> moin norbert79 06:35:26 <norbert79> Moin moin planetmaker 06:50:22 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 07:11:23 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 07:12:57 <norbert79> planetmaker: http://www.6wunderkinder.com/wunderlist/ - Might be a good thing for your development use :) And it's a German product too... 07:14:16 <planetmaker> err... what? 07:14:44 <norbert79> It's a to-do list handler, with online functions and synchronizing, and available to almsot all OS 07:14:56 <norbert79> and looks pretty 07:15:15 <planetmaker> ... 07:15:28 <norbert79> planetmaker: I guess this is a "not interested" 07:15:50 <appe> i like waking up phrases containing both "development" and "german". 07:17:12 <planetmaker> indeed, thanks. I don't need yet another app for managing time. I actually need none 07:17:14 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-81-33.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 07:17:14 *** orudge [~orudge@owenrudge.net] has joined #openttd 07:17:51 <appe> +to 07:18:03 <norbert79> planetmaker: Just wanted to show you, I know you guys have lot to do, was just an idea, since it comes with synchronizing features 07:18:08 <appe> by the way, i fail to see any swedish train grf up there 07:18:09 *** mode/#openttd [+o orudge] by ChanServ 07:18:10 <planetmaker> my phone is sufficient to keep track of important things 07:18:21 <planetmaker> which also synchronized ;-) 07:18:33 <planetmaker> appe: look harder 07:18:35 <norbert79> planetmaker: Alright, I understand, didn't want to push, just show :) 07:18:35 <dihedral> morning 07:18:44 <norbert79> Morning dihedral :) 07:18:46 <appe> i have some decent photos of the swedish x61, x14 and NC trains, and i cant find them in the content? 07:18:50 <appe> :) 07:19:17 <norbert79> appe: I have some terrific pictures on Iveco Stralis, MAN and DAF trucks, but fail to see the content in the GRF'S? :) 07:19:35 <appe> i mean, i wish to contribute if no such thing exists, that is. 07:19:41 <norbert79> Oh, I see 07:19:55 <norbert79> Well, there are lot of documentations available 07:20:02 <norbert79> palettes also 07:20:03 <appe> where do i start? :) 07:20:10 <norbert79> Hmm, wait.. first get grfcodec 07:20:12 <appe> i have no concept of how it's done 07:20:14 <appe> ok 07:20:17 <appe> got wiki? 07:20:24 <norbert79> that's the tool for extracting or packing GRF files 07:20:30 <norbert79> sure, check OpenTTD development pages 07:20:49 <planetmaker> for writing I'd nowadays much rather suggest nml 07:20:52 <norbert79> yet I also started to develop on my own, yet never finished, but at least I can give you a start to that 07:20:53 <appe> ill try it out 07:21:10 <norbert79> planetmaker: I still see to struggle with NML... But that's maybe just my problem only 07:21:11 <appe> i would like to get the real swedish trains (with the right company colors) 07:21:29 <appe> grey x2k, white, red and yellow x14/61/x 07:21:31 <planetmaker> I've little idea about the current SwedishTrain set 07:21:32 <norbert79> appe: http://www.openttd.org/en/download-grfcodec - for start 07:21:40 <appe> norbert79: excellent, thank you. 07:21:53 <norbert79> http://wiki.openttd.org/Graphics_Development 07:21:56 <norbert79> here you go 07:22:12 <panna> appe: we need x11 too :) 07:22:30 <panna> if there's not one allready 07:22:48 <norbert79> appe: Here my first test-pictures in TT-Forums. Never got there finishing even one building _-_ :( 07:22:48 <appe> ah, i can manage that 07:22:50 <norbert79> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=49910&start=20 07:23:24 <appe> norbert79: would you mind pasting that link in pm? 07:23:34 <norbert79> done 07:23:38 <appe> thanks 07:23:43 <planetmaker> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Main_Page , http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Main and http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial might be interesting 07:23:45 <appe> panna: x11 is neat. 07:23:51 <appe> planetmaker: ill check it out. 07:23:51 <pjpe> those buildings look kinda fullbright 07:24:11 <norbert79> pjpe: This is how the old block-houses used to look like... 07:24:23 <pjpe> i mean no shading or anything 07:24:24 <pjpe> no pop 07:24:39 <norbert79> pjpe: No, it hasn't got any shadow, but I never said it was finished. 07:24:51 <appe> hm, i havent yet discoverd a grf with new city buildings 07:24:54 <dihedral> ^^ 07:24:56 <norbert79> pjpe: But the building texture is based on real photo, just minaturized 07:26:03 <norbert79> pjpe: http://www.szekesfehervar.hu/viewer.php?group=70230&image=0 - Here, some real photage from my town 07:26:54 <norbert79> pjpe: http://www.szekesfehervar.hu/_user/0/Image/000Gergo_2010/juniustol/legifotok/legifoto17.jpg - These used to look like the one in my forum entry, now these have been improved, got new painting too 07:26:58 <norbert79> paint 07:27:07 <norbert79> Jeez, this headache is killing me 07:27:10 <pjpe> huh 07:27:15 <pjpe> some of those look full bright too 07:27:16 <pjpe> that's weird 07:27:31 <norbert79> pjpe: Might be your monitor then :)) 07:27:49 <norbert79> reduce gamma 07:28:05 <pjpe> my gamma is at 0 07:28:06 <pjpe> i can't see anything 07:28:07 <pjpe> deal with it 07:28:51 <norbert79> I have spent some time analyzing the block houses in Hungary, which was weird, cause some was based on French standard, many Swedish and lots of Soviet 07:29:14 <norbert79> and since we are Hungary, some have been a bit redesigned 07:29:55 <b_jonas> to make a Hungarian houses set, you'll need a way in openttd that houses get progressively ruinier in time 07:30:17 <norbert79> b_jonas: Actually my idea was using a time-limit, so after 2005 houses get renovated 07:30:27 <norbert79> b_jonas: but meanwhile yes, some additions would appear 07:30:29 <planetmaker> b_jonas: that exists 07:30:39 <norbert79> b_jonas: like side-ads, and GSM antennas on top 07:30:50 <pjpe> openttd detroit mod 07:30:56 <appe> norbert79: coffee, fresh air, naked women and fat food. 07:30:57 <pjpe> watch as your cities crumble as time goes on 07:31:04 *** Elukka [~Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 07:31:05 <appe> norbert79: is the solution to your dire situation, my good sir. 07:31:33 <b_jonas> norbert79: yes, but only the office blocks would be renovated, plus some inner city houses would get renovated from the outside but still very bad from the inside (so they wouldn't accept much mail and goods) 07:31:37 <norbert79> appe: Fat food, present. Naked women, have one at home, that's enoughj for me :) Fresh air, yeah, good thinking. Coffee, nah :) 07:31:53 <b_jonas> the other houses need to keep getting worse until they completely self-destruct 07:32:08 <norbert79> b_jonas: I doubt playing around with that would make too much sense, the game itself doesn't consider the circumstances that real either 07:32:15 <appe> norbert79: :) 07:32:18 <b_jonas> sure 07:32:23 <norbert79> Besides, OpenTTD is no Simcity, despite the idea is good :) 07:32:32 <appe> our employees are horrible with painkillers 07:32:47 <b_jonas> oh, and of course towns would like building all kinds of houses to river banks where they soon get flooded 07:32:53 <appe> and ive developed a ass whipe attitude towards it 07:33:17 <norbert79> b_jonas: Ehm, look, this isn't about simulating all kind of things, not even mentioning flooding doesn't only ocur in Hungary, despite the myths :) 07:33:52 <b_jonas> I don't think it's _only_ in Hungary 07:33:52 <norbert79> b_jonas: Also not to forget, that this needs lots of drawing and lots of coding too... If you feel joining, I would feel charmed. :) 07:34:17 <norbert79> b_jonas: Yes, but going into that much of details would just make the progress go slower, and there won't be too much visible of it within the game 07:34:23 <b_jonas> sure 07:34:27 <norbert79> b_jonas: So no need to overkill :) 07:34:35 <b_jonas> and of course, I don't want a realistic simulator 07:35:02 <Terkhen> good morning 07:35:08 <norbert79> Good morning Terkhen 07:35:36 <planetmaker> hello Terkhen 07:35:49 <appe> droby'djen! 07:38:42 <norbert79> and I wonder, how can an application become 82 MB big, while extracted it's just around 74 MB... 07:45:27 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-043-077.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 07:48:14 <appe> speaking of megabytes 07:48:25 <appe> i was wondering about some irregularities in big openttd games 07:49:00 <Terkhen> what kind of irregularities? 07:49:13 <appe> for some reason, it doesnt cache much data in the ram. when i play a big map (where my computer starts to struggle) it reads more from the hard drive then the ram. 07:49:22 <appe> i guess there is some logic behind that. 07:49:25 <appe> but it felt odd. 07:49:38 * planetmaker compresses random noise. Seems compression is good, if ration < 1 ;-) 07:49:48 <Terkhen> hmm... to my knowledge everything is stored in RAM 07:50:27 <planetmaker> for a running OpenTTD? I'm quite sure of that. 07:50:32 <planetmaker> would be insane, if not 07:50:33 <appe> hm, ok. 07:50:33 <Terkhen> savegames are essentially snapshots of the game state in that moment 07:51:25 <appe> how much ram does a normal ottd game use? are we speaking in ten or hundreds? 07:51:28 <appe> (or googolplex) 07:51:52 <appe> since i could never see it jump over 100MB, but the hard drive read was at >30MB/minute. 07:52:03 <appe> wich halted when the game was paused. 07:52:14 <pjpe> low hundreds i'd say 07:52:19 <norbert79> How often you save your company? 07:52:26 <norbert79> I mean every month? 2? 6 months? 07:52:50 <Terkhen> @calc 2048 * 2048 * 72 07:52:50 <DorpsGek> Terkhen: 301989888 07:53:06 <pjpe> 72? 07:53:07 <Terkhen> that only for terrain (in bits) 07:53:08 <pjpe> why 72 07:53:12 <norbert79> @calc pi 07:53:12 <DorpsGek> norbert79: 3.14159265359 07:53:12 <pjpe> oh in bits 07:53:14 <appe> norbert79: standard setting, i guess. 07:53:19 <appe> havent changed the autosave 07:53:25 <pjpe> a 1024 by 1024 map should be 9 mb in memory if each tile is 9 bytes 07:53:44 <appe> @calc 301989888 / 8 07:53:44 <DorpsGek> appe: 37748736 07:53:45 <Terkhen> even playing a 2048 x 1024 map would result in a big improvement 07:54:34 <appe> the size of the map doesnt really effect the hard drive read as much as the "information" does. 07:54:42 <appe> moving trains, displaying data, etc. 07:54:50 <appe> using the map is horrendous 07:55:03 <Terkhen> sorry, using the map for what? 07:57:23 <appe> zooming out the map with the vechicle view on makes my laptop go boom. 07:57:40 <pjpe> well yeah 07:57:44 <pjpe> you have to draw just so much more 07:58:19 <norbert79> appe: Ever thought about the possibility, that your graphic card driver would have some issues? I used to have similar issues, but since moved to ubuntu Lucid, the Intel driver works fine. 07:59:14 <norbert79> What laptop you are using, what GFX card does it have? Some older laptops might have issues, like older Pentium 3 or 4 laptops 07:59:54 <pjpe> turn off full animation and full detail 07:59:57 <pjpe> and maybe hide buildings 08:00:20 <norbert79> and I would also check the hard-drive's fragmentation too 08:07:40 <Elukka> http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/0/6/0/8060.1249074816.jpg 08:07:42 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 08:07:47 <Elukka> british locomotives in a DB red 08:07:48 <Elukka> how weird 08:08:25 <norbert79> Looks like Schenker bought it and recoloured based on the german DB standard 08:08:55 <norbert79> hah, interesting 08:09:13 <Elukka> they bought a company and rebranded it as DB Schenker Rail UK, at some point 08:09:29 <appe> norbert79: i guess thats possible. ill try the same savegame on a new pc today. 08:09:31 <norbert79> Elukka: I see 08:09:38 <planetmaker> hm... funny how lifestock on CHIP stations is displayed as crates ;-) 08:09:47 <norbert79> appe: sure, do so... Since I doubt it's related directly to the game. 08:13:05 <appe> :) 08:22:58 <Elukka> animal treatment in ttd world is appalling 08:24:03 <norbert79> why? 08:26:21 <Elukka> joke, read planetmaker's line :P 08:26:39 <V453000> :D 08:27:19 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db1ab24.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 08:28:20 <norbert79> ...aw.. got it... 08:28:37 <norbert79> well, we all end up in a box anyway... :) 08:29:00 <norbert79> some in a more expensive box, some don't :) 08:30:31 <V453000> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/20419525/lv.png this is how you treat animals! :) 08:31:06 <norbert79> V453000: A basket I see there? :)) 08:31:17 <peter1138> what?? 08:31:19 <norbert79> hard to identify the object :) 08:32:04 <norbert79> I see the animal's head, but the basket it's in is a bit hard to id :) 08:32:20 <V453000> well, that is .. a wagon :D 08:32:40 <norbert79> lol, the animal riding a wagon.. Nice :) 08:43:38 <planetmaker> V453000: I get more and more the feeling that the preferred climate really should be toyland ;-) 08:43:48 <planetmaker> lovely wagons! 08:44:03 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B11D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:44:43 <V453000> well, maglev indeed is ... weird 08:44:52 <V453000> I hope to make the rail vehicles more sane 08:44:59 <V453000> (not by much though :P) 08:46:59 <V453000> planetmaker: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/1936/MaglevWagons_Flatbed01_05_fixedstrawberries.png including yellow duckies for toys :P 08:47:08 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:47:28 <planetmaker> :-) 08:48:24 <V453000> because who cares really about base set dependance, on team servers players choose as a team and on stable-ish servers, one mostly looks at his stuff so chooses appropriately 08:51:55 <norbert79> I realized yesterday why I don't like the Toyland Scenery that much in *TTD... One can get easily lost within the scenery. 08:52:30 <V453000> matter of getting used to really 08:52:32 <pjpe> toyland has nice buildings 08:52:34 <peter1138> also it makes your eyes bleed 08:52:37 <V453000> I have no problems with toyland nowadays 08:52:41 <pjpe> (in the original sprites) 08:52:45 <pjpe> but completely shit landscape 08:52:55 <norbert79> I dilike the 'trees' 08:52:58 <norbert79> dislike 08:53:07 <pjpe> yes 08:53:09 <pjpe> those are quite bad 08:53:17 <pjpe> but the damn grid they have in default sprites 08:53:19 <pjpe> is just so awful 08:53:24 <norbert79> I kinda like it 08:53:26 <norbert79> :) 08:53:28 <pjpe> it's like one of those optical illusion epiosodes 08:53:32 <pjpe> that you have to play with 08:53:35 <norbert79> My eyes just hurt from the trees 08:53:49 <pjpe> and then when you have the trees with the weird square grid things 08:54:05 <norbert79> pjpe: Hah, guess you never loved the alpha-channel grid using GIMP then :) 08:54:31 <norbert79> where the transparent things are the ones with the blocks :) 08:59:20 <b_jonas> luckily that's configurable 08:59:24 <V453000> dont know, I consider TTD toyland a masterpiece in its originality :) 08:59:32 <V453000> and after playing it for some time it gets feasible 08:59:37 <V453000> or even enjoyable 09:00:12 <norbert79> V453000: Sure, but I have some issues with some of the graphics, and it lacks lot's of 'vehicles' :) 09:00:23 <norbert79> there are only 3 planes available after 2050 09:00:50 <norbert79> Yet I would imagine tons of variations, like the flying train from Back to the Future :)) 09:02:32 <Elukka> <norbert79> pjpe: Hah, guess you never loved the alpha-channel grid using GIMP then :) 09:02:33 <Elukka> oh my god that. 09:02:36 <Elukka> it was terrible 09:02:54 <Elukka> photoshop might do it too? dunno, if it did i swiftly changed it 09:02:59 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 09:05:33 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-178-004-188-067.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 09:07:51 <Terkhen> A NewGRF extending toyland would be nice 09:09:17 *** erik1984 [~erik1984@vhe-490300.sshn.net] has joined #openttd 09:09:37 <dihedral> extending it to a temperate landscape 09:09:53 <dihedral> uh - how about an ascii landscape? 09:10:24 <Terkhen> no, extending toyland itself :P 09:11:07 <norbert79> dihedral: Lol 09:11:10 <norbert79> dihedral: Geeky idea 09:11:16 <dihedral> :-P 09:11:32 <dihedral> i still like the ascii star wars telnet server ^^ 09:12:04 <peter1138> whatever happened to the "comic" set? 09:12:26 <Eddi|zuHause> a serious case of reallife 09:12:28 <Terkhen> development halted IIRC 09:13:25 <dihedral> peter1138, that would be with planetmaker 09:13:54 *** XknarfieX [~X-Frank-X@a83-161-139-139.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 09:14:08 <XknarfieX> Hi All... 09:14:13 <Terkhen> hi XknarfieX 09:14:30 <XknarfieX> I hope someone can give me some advise! 09:14:40 <XknarfieX> I have a problem with my dedicated server... 09:15:15 <b_jonas> Terkhen: ins't there already one? like changing toyland to moon or mars or something, keeping the industry chain but renaming it 09:15:43 <XknarfieX> Its running on a linux server, and I change the permissions to 777 for openttd.cfg so that the server can write it (to generate a new map every time) 09:16:02 <XknarfieX> but for some reason it's coming up with the same map every time I restart the server... 09:16:12 <Terkhen> b_jonas: that removes toyland, I'm talking about something to improve it 09:16:21 <Terkhen> more vehicles and so on 09:16:23 <b_jonas> oh 09:16:41 <Terkhen> XknarfieX: what command do you use for starting the server? 09:16:46 <XknarfieX> openttd -D 09:16:59 <b_jonas> so you want quite the opposite: keep the style of skin for toyland but change the playability to something like temperate? 09:17:58 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice1n2.emea.ibm.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:19:06 <Terkhen> b_jonas: kind of, it does not need to be identical to temperate... just as diverse as temperate, but still true to toyland style 09:20:08 <Terkhen> XknarfieX: hmm... I'm not sure but I think that should be regenerating the seed every time 09:21:02 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice1n2.emea.ibm.com] has joined #openttd 09:21:16 <XknarfieX> Terkhen: It's pretty strange, because I have 3 instances running on the same server, and the other 2 instances are running just fine with the map regenerating every time! 09:21:37 <Terkhen> all of them use the same openttd.cfg file? 09:21:39 <XknarfieX> Terkhen: tried to copy the config file from the other instances, but still doesn't work 09:21:47 <XknarfieX> Terkhen: no 09:21:51 <XknarfieX> Terkhen: 3 seperate 09:22:20 <XknarfieX> very strange, but it looks like the openttd instance saves the openttd.cfg and in that process changes the file permissions to read only 09:22:44 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-2-96-25-241.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 09:22:47 <planetmaker> I'm sure openttd doesn't change file permissions 09:23:03 <b_jonas> Terkhen: right 09:23:10 <XknarfieX> even not when the server itself writes back the openttd.cfg file? 09:23:13 <planetmaker> does it, by chance, use a different cfg - maybe in another path of the different search pathes 09:23:39 <planetmaker> sure, the server rewrites the cfg, but... 09:23:52 <XknarfieX> planetmaker: no, it uses the right path since I don't have any other files with that server name in it! 09:23:53 <b_jonas> well, I don't know, I kind of agree with pjpe in that the graphics is kind of distracting. both the ttd and the ottd graphics. 09:24:00 <b_jonas> but then, I haven't played that much with it. 09:24:20 *** XknarfieX is now known as X-Frank-X 09:24:42 <Terkhen> I would use openttd -c to be sure 09:25:03 <X-Frank-X> Terken: ok, will try that one 09:25:11 <X-Frank-X> I can also see the -x option 09:25:20 <planetmaker> X-Frank-X: where's that cfg relative to the binary? 09:25:25 <X-Frank-X> maybe have to try that one... just thought maybe you guys had this before! 09:25:38 <X-Frank-X> Planetmaker: In the same directory as the binary 09:25:43 <planetmaker> hm 09:26:05 <planetmaker> but as it doesn't happen with your other installs it must be something very specific to that one install 09:26:12 <X-Frank-X> indeed 09:26:19 <X-Frank-X> pretty frustrating :-P 09:26:21 <X-Frank-X> lol 09:26:27 <planetmaker> find out the difference 09:26:43 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 09:26:47 <andythenorth> moin 09:26:49 <Terkhen> hi andythenorth 09:26:58 <planetmaker> differently called? different versions? etc 09:26:59 <planetmaker> hi andythenorth 09:27:13 <X-Frank-X> I just tried to start all over... recompile it from the start with the --enable-dedicated option and fill the directory of the first server from step 1 09:27:31 <planetmaker> "fill the directory"? 09:27:36 <X-Frank-X> but strangly enough the permissions still get changed 09:27:48 <X-Frank-X> yeah, I mean the graphic files, data dir, gm dir, etc. 09:28:09 <planetmaker> why not use the global dir? ~/.openttd ? 09:28:21 <X-Frank-X> because I was troubleshooting ;-) 09:28:27 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-043-077.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:28:59 <X-Frank-X> anyway, appreciate your help, thanks... will try to find out the differences! 09:29:39 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-045-030.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 09:32:42 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 09:33:55 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-9-226-201.as43234.net] has joined #openttd 09:35:26 <panna> i want to pave the moon. is there a map for that? 09:41:47 <appe> i was wondering, how come we can't generate map of (near) any given size? 09:42:12 <appe> a ten by ten thousand map would be fantastic. 09:42:49 <peter1138> because 09:42:59 <peter1138> there's a patch for it 09:43:11 <peter1138> it's still limited to powers of 2 though, of course 09:43:37 <appe> panna: it's you! 09:43:43 <panna> :) 09:43:47 <appe> peter1138: sounds logical. 09:44:05 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.180.19] has joined #openttd 09:44:59 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 09:46:14 <planetmaker> appe: 09:46:24 <planetmaker> @calc 10000*10000*9 / 1024**3 09:46:24 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 0.838190317154 09:46:49 <planetmaker> ^ map size scales badly ;-) 09:47:20 <planetmaker> 838 MByte for a 10k**2 map... 09:47:28 <appe> jeez, that much? 09:47:36 <peter1138> @calc 2048*2048*9/1024**3 09:47:36 <DorpsGek> peter1138: 0.03515625 09:47:44 <peter1138> 35MB for 2048x2048 09:47:55 <appe> ah, i didnt really consider the scale of things 09:48:11 <appe> i was kind of hoping it to be linear 09:48:12 <appe> :D 09:48:16 <peter1138> and that's just the map, let alone town & industry information 09:48:16 <Eddi|zuHause> you probably get problems around 3GB 09:48:18 <planetmaker> it is linear... 09:48:20 <peter1138> it is linear 09:48:33 * peter1138 pokes Eddi|zuHause with a 64bit system 09:48:35 <Eddi|zuHause> linear in number of tiles 09:48:56 <appe> neat 09:49:02 <Eddi|zuHause> means quadratic in map edge length 09:49:21 <appe> though 09:49:31 <appe> how does openttd handle stuff that arent monitored? 09:49:42 <peter1138> no such concept 09:49:48 <peter1138> openttd is not minecraft ;) 09:50:12 <Eddi|zuHause> it should be! 09:50:16 <peter1138> no! 09:50:17 <planetmaker> :-D Vehicles stop moving immediately, if not watched. 09:50:22 <planetmaker> Great concept. Lazy drivers 09:50:32 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6C2B0.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:50:34 <peter1138> industries stop consuming/producing 09:50:35 <Eddi|zuHause> implement openttd in a minecraft world. you already have rails 09:50:36 <appe> that is, stuff thats running (ten million trains, for instance) but is not activly seen on the monitor 09:50:49 <peter1138> it's still running 09:50:56 <peter1138> it's just... not drawn... 09:51:11 <Eddi|zuHause> appe: if you close your eyes, does the world stop turning? 09:51:12 <V453000> omg :D 09:51:25 <appe> Eddi|zuHause: of course not. im talking about stuff being processed to what power. 09:51:55 <appe> Eddi|zuHause: stuff in the real world is always processed without my eyes, on a computer it isnt (or doesnt have to be). 09:52:04 <Eddi|zuHause> appe: it is not drawn. everything else is still calculated 09:52:10 <appe> and dont get me started on schrödinger effects. 09:52:11 <V453000> ^ 09:52:19 <appe> :). 09:52:22 <V453000> or would you like to make money only from the trains that you see arriving? :D 09:52:24 <appe> Eddi|zuHause: i see 09:52:25 <V453000> for example :D 09:52:27 <appe> hehe 09:53:08 <appe> though, with that in mind i guess a ten by ten thousand map would not be that evil to a decent computer. 09:53:32 <peter1138> well, try it ;) 09:53:44 <appe> i will! 09:54:11 <Eddi|zuHause> take the bigger maps patch, and start an 8kx8k map with lots of ECS industries 09:54:20 <appe> "This patch enable to play on maps up to 262144 high and up to 262144 wide, although not that large in both dimensions at once." 09:54:20 <V453000> it will definitely be evil for you though :) I get lost in 1x1k 09:54:22 <Eddi|zuHause> then click on fast forward, and see what happens 09:54:23 <appe> jeeez. 09:54:24 <peter1138> although you can only go for 8192 or 16384 09:54:40 <V453000> ecs takes more CPU Eddi|zuHause ? 09:55:01 <peter1138> yes, it doesn't more stuff 09:55:11 <appe> @calc 262144*262144*9 / 1024**3 09:55:12 <DorpsGek> appe: 576 09:55:17 <appe> oops 09:55:28 <appe> what is ECS? 09:55:35 <peter1138> errr 09:55:37 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: it's supposed to have gotten better over the past years... 09:55:40 <peter1138> yes, it does more stuff 09:55:45 <V453000> hm :) 09:55:54 <peter1138> but then most newgrf stuff causes more stuff to happen 09:56:04 <peter1138> funky station graphics? slows you down 09:56:11 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: but last time i tried, a 2kx2k map was unplayable even without any vehicles 09:56:21 <peter1138> especially those variables that do loops 09:56:30 <appe> oh shit. why on earth havent i found this earlier. 09:56:40 <V453000> :D 09:57:06 <V453000> I guess that isnt even funny :D 09:57:14 <appe> you guys keep suprising me. 09:58:52 <Eddi|zuHause> appe: problem with "modern computers" is they are multicore, and openttd is not (really) multithreaded, so having a computer less than 5 years old doesn't offer any improvement anymore 10:09:44 <planetmaker> those who make openttd somewhat supporting multicore win an award 10:09:57 <planetmaker> while keeping multiplayer capability that is 10:10:39 <norbert79> And the award will be being able playing the game on multicore :)) 10:10:45 <Terkhen> and keeping the code understandable :P 10:11:26 <Eddi|zuHause> well, one idea could be to introduce "countries", each having a (rectangular, power-of-2 sized) map piece assigned 10:11:57 <Eddi|zuHause> then each "country" could run on one core, like any current game. and special pieces to allow vehicles travelling between countries 10:12:25 <Eddi|zuHause> kinda like SC4 cities, only that all cities actually run in parallel 10:12:30 <Eddi|zuHause> and synchronized 10:13:21 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: For that I think using larger timescales would be necessary. 10:13:28 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Game is already fast 10:13:38 <Elukka> http://media.riemurasia.net/albumit/mmedia/lp/8kv/hggt/3175/851611125.jpg 10:13:40 <Elukka> utterly unrelated 10:14:01 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: no, total size of the map needn't be different. just instead of a 512x1024 map you could have 8 256x256 maps 10:14:07 <norbert79> Elukka: LOL 10:14:31 <planetmaker> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/596/ <-- do I something wrong? This NewGRF won't show in the NewGRF list... 10:15:00 *** zachanima [~zach@0x52b41806.static.bcbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:16:28 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 10:16:54 <norbert79> Spritesets for OpenTTD >= 1.1.4 (r22923) ? 10:17:23 <norbert79> Not <=? 10:17:53 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: that versioning seems wrong. it should say "> 1.2.0 alpha (rxxxx)" 10:18:16 <Terkhen> yes, I don't think that r22923-r22925 should be backported 10:18:34 <norbert79> Not using nightly, so you are all probably right :) 10:18:50 <Terkhen> specially because to my knowledge no NewGRF is using r22925 already 10:20:26 <planetmaker> Terkhen: it's about r22918 10:20:32 <planetmaker> which should IMHO be backported 10:20:42 <planetmaker> so, yes wrong version 10:21:05 <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=958164#p958164 <-- anyone interested in getting this to trunk? in the past weeks i have seen several places where it would be useful. the extra callback info i mean, not (yet) the var60+ stuff 10:21:13 <Terkhen> I agree, r22918 should be backported 10:21:48 <norbert79> what's so special about 22918? 10:22:01 <Terkhen> @commit 22918 10:22:02 <Eddi|zuHause> @openttd log 22918 10:22:11 <Eddi|zuHause> @openttd commit 22918 10:22:14 <Terkhen> lazy DorpsGek! 10:22:22 <Eddi|zuHause> @damdorpsgek 10:22:27 <Eddi|zuHause> +n 10:22:28 <planetmaker> http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/rev/9f466debb3be <-- Eddi|zuHause 10:23:00 <norbert79> Ah, I see 10:23:00 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: is that patch related to http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Secondary_Related_Objects ? 10:23:01 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, right 10:23:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: not really 10:25:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: it's for things that do special stuff with the sprite on the map, that look weird if it's also done in the vehicle list. e.g. planes taking off, vehicles tilting, other stuff 10:25:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: or "invisible engines" being made visible in the gui 10:25:55 <Terkhen> hmm... I'm not understanding what it does then :P 10:26:32 <Eddi|zuHause> currently a newgrf can provide special sprites for the depot window, and for the purchase window, but not for other guis like vehicle details or vehicle lists 10:27:09 <Eddi|zuHause> so vehicles that display special sprites like av8 planes taking off change their sprites both on the map and in the gui 10:27:36 <planetmaker> ok, I was stupid... I used a grfID which obviously I used before ;-) 10:28:07 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that's easier than one thinks at first ;) 10:28:36 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: use gui.newgrf_show_old_versions (or similar) setting 10:28:43 <planetmaker> I do 10:28:57 <planetmaker> but using another grfID made it visible 10:29:35 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, but then it shouldn't matter. as long as the md5sum is different, it should show up 10:29:40 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 10:30:51 <planetmaker> yes, so I thought, too... 10:30:55 <planetmaker> it's a bit mysterious 10:39:39 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-2-96-25-241.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:43:08 <appe> Eddi|zuHause: i know, and that sucks. my i5 copes well with openttd, but when the maps get bigger and bigger.. 10:43:25 <appe> i fail to see why openttd isnt already multicore 10:43:45 <peter1138> tee hee 10:43:52 <Elukka> turns out it's really hard to convert something to multicore after it's done 10:43:52 <peter1138> same reason most games aren't 10:44:05 <Elukka> most commercial games these days certainly are 10:44:53 <Elukka> but i've never seen multithreading being patched into a game 10:45:39 <appe> i see 10:45:44 <Eddi|zuHause> most modern games that support multicore have been rewritten from scratch, instead of using a 17 year old game engine 10:45:54 <appe> i guess it would involve to much reconstruction for it to be worth it - at least at the moment. 10:46:07 <appe> maybe it's time to ditch the game engine, then? 10:46:11 <Terkhen> either they are completely rewritten or use multicore only for non core stuff 10:46:18 <Eddi|zuHause> there was one attempt at making multicore support in the past 10:46:23 <planetmaker> it should be possible to skip an action0, shouldn't it? 10:46:24 <appe> that failed? 10:46:31 <Eddi|zuHause> the result was 20% speed improvement on multi core systems 10:46:37 <Eddi|zuHause> and 10% speed loss on single core 10:47:08 <Terkhen> how was it implemented? 10:47:25 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno, i was not involved 10:47:44 <Elukka> <appe> maybe it's time to ditch the game engine, then? 10:47:45 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly Rubidium or TrueBrain would know 10:47:47 <Elukka> who's gonna code a new one? 10:47:56 <peter1138> it could probably be done quite well if it wasn't for network play... 10:48:11 <planetmaker> network play is the culprit 10:49:08 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I know of no such thing :) 10:49:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i remember the english lesson when we learned the word "dunno"... even the bad students quickly picked it up :) 10:49:53 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: you wouldn't remember your own nick if it wasn't written down next to each of your lines :p 10:50:04 *** Devedse [~Devedse@ip254-077.stu-laptops.HZeeland.nl] has joined #openttd 10:50:11 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: who am I again? 10:50:17 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, but then darkvater got confused and always wrote "donnu" instead :) 10:50:23 <peter1138> TrueBrain, you are TrueLight 10:50:53 <peter1138> your main task in openttd is to annoy tron 10:51:01 <peter1138> (it's a simple task, mind you) 10:51:15 <TrueBrain> ah; I always thought he was there to annoy me; there it went wrong 10:51:29 <peter1138> hm 10:55:18 *** Devedse [~Devedse@ip254-077.stu-laptops.HZeeland.nl] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 10:55:36 *** Devedse [~Devedse@ip254-077.stu-laptops.HZeeland.nl] has joined #openttd 10:57:05 *** Devedse [~Devedse@ip254-077.stu-laptops.HZeeland.nl] has quit [] 10:57:31 *** Devedse [~Devedse@ip254-077.stu-laptops.HZeeland.nl] has joined #openttd 10:57:38 *** X-Frank-X [~X-Frank-X@a83-161-139-139.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [] 10:59:03 <Eddi|zuHause> appe: anyway, if you want to try a multicore approach, try something like this: 1) change the architecture of the game so instead of foreach(vehicle) { pathfinder(); move() } it does foreach(vehicle) { pathfinder }; foreach(vehicle){move}, 2) spawn a thread for each pathfinder call, lock write access to the map during this time. if all pathfinder threads resolved, do the movement. 10:59:40 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 10:59:49 * andythenorth ponders unifying iron ore and bauxite 10:59:52 <andythenorth> hmm 10:59:53 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: and then what if 2 entries move through a red light? 10:59:57 <andythenorth> could have an 'ore mine' 11:00:03 <andythenorth> producing 'metal ore' 11:00:06 <andythenorth> saves a cargo 11:00:12 <andythenorth> but... 11:00:14 <andythenorth> nah 11:00:16 <Terkhen> andythenorth: read the logs :P 11:00:22 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: movement is not parallelised 11:00:23 <Terkhen> bauxite was introduced because the metal chain was boring 11:00:35 <planetmaker> yeah 11:00:36 <andythenorth> in ECS? Or FIRS? 11:00:38 <appe> i actually though you were talking chemistry :( 11:00:38 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: so red lights are caught at that point 11:00:40 <Terkhen> FIRS 11:00:41 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: even so; one of the two cant move; so what does he do 11:00:51 <Terkhen> and it has a different role than iron ore, at least in FIRS 11:00:52 <planetmaker> unifying that leads to the road at which end we have 'primary stuff' and 'secondary stuff' 11:00:55 <andythenorth> there's also a time offset 11:01:01 <andythenorth> bauxite is C20th 11:01:09 <Terkhen> time offset? 11:01:09 <andythenorth> iron ore is 'all time' 11:01:10 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: one pseudo-random will stop. 11:01:12 <Terkhen> oh 11:01:21 <andythenorth> so you get a new chain to service 11:01:23 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: that is not different to the current behaviour 11:01:24 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: my point being, I like your idea, but there are some corner cases to clean up for that ;) 11:01:29 <Terkhen> that sounds nice :P 11:01:34 <TrueBrain> it is fully deterministic atm Eddi|zuHause :) 11:01:38 <Terkhen> I never play really old games 11:01:40 <TrueBrain> the Train with the lowest ID gest through 11:01:44 <Terkhen> s/old/ancient/ 11:01:50 * andythenorth will now go back to work :P 11:01:51 <TrueBrain> it is the reason 1 train can be waiting FOR EVER at a block 11:01:54 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 11:02:02 <planetmaker> rrrright 11:02:12 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: yes, but that is outside the scope of this patch 11:02:19 <Terkhen> this guy is getting more complicated to talk with over time :P 11:02:46 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: no, it is inside. Not the red light issue, but the fact that 2 trains have a path through it :) 11:02:52 *** MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:02:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: the problem is, by the time he gets back, he has made up his mind :p 11:02:53 <TrueBrain> you will have to solve that first ;) 11:03:05 <Terkhen> and in a random way usually 11:03:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: without hearing the arguments you would have brought up 11:03:24 <Terkhen> yes 11:03:48 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: that is unsolvable unless you implement the concept of a "signal block", which can then act as an arbiter 11:04:01 <planetmaker> @base 10 16 22918 11:04:01 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 5986 11:04:53 <appe> Eddi|zuHause: now you are talking code with me, and im sorry to say - that's jiberish to me :) 11:04:56 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: it doesnt have to be solved as such, but it has to be protected if you paralize it ;) 11:05:16 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: as movement is not parallelised, it's a non-issue 11:05:30 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I am afraid if you look at the current code, it would kinda disagree ;) 11:05:46 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: hence point 1) :) 11:06:06 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: and which is what I am saying: some corner cases to take care of :) 11:11:22 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, my point was that it a) requires some major architectural restructuring, and b) even then only touches a very small part of the game, so performance gain would be limited. 11:11:52 <TrueBrain> and in time it will just run into the same issue 11:11:57 <TrueBrain> just at a bigger number 11:14:00 <Eddi|zuHause> the "countries" idea might be more viable. you have some depot-like structure at map borders that makes sure that the vehicle can be transfered from one country to the other without race conditions occuring 11:16:12 <Eddi|zuHause> if you keep the current map structure, you would have a stripe of 2 void tiles between countries, which can make sure you have no effects like catchment areas that overlap the border 11:16:30 <TrueBrain> catchment area is a bit bigger than 2 :P 11:16:45 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but you can cancel out search on void tiles 11:16:47 <TrueBrain> but head-to-head patch solves those things already :P 11:16:58 <appe> i guess that's a good idea, since it's rather hard to fill up 256x256 with stuff that (so badly) affects a single core on a new cpu. 11:17:04 <appe> that will also make the game economical 11:17:15 <appe> since most cores will never max out 11:17:16 <appe> i guess 11:17:25 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what is currently done already, otherwise you'd get catchment area at the opposite map border 11:18:04 <planetmaker> hm... nice http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=56701 11:19:24 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: ah, you want vehicles leaving one openttd games and entering another game? 11:19:35 <b_jonas> hmm 11:19:39 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: basically yes 11:19:40 <b_jonas> still, how would routing work? 11:19:56 <TrueBrain> hihi, I still have an MMO concept for OpenTTD :P Lolz :) 11:19:59 <b_jonas> would you have to explicitly add the border as a waypoint? 11:20:01 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: pathfinder ends on the map border, the transfer point would have to be an explicit order 11:20:07 <b_jonas> hmm 11:20:11 <b_jonas> possible 11:20:20 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, lunch 11:20:22 <b_jonas> it's probably still very hard to implement 11:20:33 <b_jonas> but at least theoretically sounds possible 11:21:17 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: anyway, just know that multicore kills every multiplayer game; less and less clients will be able to keep up with the server, when they run out of cores when the server doesnt :P 11:21:33 <b_jonas> would also allow some cheats I guess 11:21:52 <TrueBrain> (Already happens btw, when CPU MHz runs out :P) 11:22:41 <peter1138> peak cpu, just like peak oil 11:23:57 <panna> don't worry, we've got plenty of cpu's 11:24:15 <appe> i have an idea 11:24:19 <appe> a monumental one 11:24:27 <TrueBrain> plural of cpu is cpus, not cpu's. :P 11:24:36 <appe> why on earth arent the prices of goods tied to real time stock market values? 11:24:38 <panna> thanks 11:24:46 <appe> that would be fantastic on a europa map 11:26:03 <panna> pcs aren't realtime :PpPpp 11:26:59 *** Doorslammer [7da86216@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 11:27:06 <appe> "dont ship coal from france, they went bear all night". 11:28:29 <Elukka> would you want to have to reorder your trains all the time? 11:29:12 <Elukka> truebrain, does openttd run peer to peer or server/client? 11:29:25 <TrueBrain> how would that make sense? 11:29:42 <Elukka> i was going to say peer to peer games usually seem to run at the speed of the slowest peer, but then i realized i don't even know which architecture it uses 11:30:01 <TrueBrain> I know of no games that use p2p as their network infastructure 11:30:20 <TrueBrain> (none that work anyway) 11:32:09 <Elukka> hunh. i thought a lot of games do 11:32:16 <TrueBrain> please do name me one :) 11:32:22 <Elukka> how else does it work so that the original host can leave and the game keeps going? 11:32:52 <Elukka> a fair amount of games can do that 11:32:54 <TrueBrain> the only games that support migration these days is CoD (most known I guess). It works by recollecting the information of the clients and making 1 client a server 11:33:27 <Elukka> i could have misunderstood it, then 11:33:30 <TrueBrain> it is also a really crappy method btw; dont know if you played these CoD versions :) 11:33:50 <TrueBrain> randomly you are moved to antoher server, network bandwidth shit issues .. ugh .. 11:34:08 <TrueBrain> I miss dedicated servers in those games :) 11:34:19 <TrueBrain> Elukka: problem with the p2p concept is both bandwidth, and validation 11:34:30 <Elukka> nope, but i've played multiple games where it doesn't make any difference if the host leaves, it just continues seamlessly 11:34:46 <TrueBrain> name one ;) 11:34:49 <Elukka> (nope to having not played CoD) 11:34:56 <Elukka> homeworld 2 pops to mind 11:35:10 <TrueBrain> CoD is one of the bigger tittles that tried this method. I so badly hope they never do it again ... it sucks 11:35:19 <TrueBrain> the same as: you are thrown in a server we say you will play on 11:35:19 <Elukka> actually... most RTS games 11:35:24 <TrueBrain> ffs, I just want to join a server of my liking! 11:35:41 <Elukka> "All of Relic's games have been peer to peer networking models (the original Homeworld 2 was apparently Client Server based, but most of that code was thrown out)." 11:36:24 <TrueBrain> I truly wonder what their idea of p2p is .. 11:36:36 <TrueBrain> the problem is, what if you have a modified client in your midst 11:36:40 <TrueBrain> who do you trust? 11:36:49 <TrueBrain> what movement is real? 11:36:52 <Elukka> in practice it's easy to tell if one player is host or if it's peer to peer 11:36:55 <TrueBrain> does client A now see unit B at place C, or D? 11:36:56 <Elukka> because the host will have 0 ping 11:37:02 <Eddi|zuHause> the first problem is (not) open ports 11:37:14 <Elukka> i dunno how it's validated, seems to work though 11:37:25 <TrueBrain> so I know of games that tried the p2p concept, but they all failed so freakinglish hard 11:37:55 <TrueBrain> then again, for years I could cheat the Valve anti cheat mechanisms :p Hell, I am the reason they implemented some checks :D (ghehe) 11:37:58 <Elukka> 'all of relic's games' certainly didn't 11:38:29 <TrueBrain> that they might use 'peer to peer' (lets leave in the middle how they interperter that term), doesnt mean it works ;) 11:39:08 <Elukka> they certainly work 11:39:09 <TrueBrain> anyway, to come back to the concept of it: we have seen a big movement towards client-abused-as-host (in p2p or s/c models), but slowly more games are moving away from this again 11:39:14 <Elukka> "Despite these limitations this model naturally suits RTS games and it still lives on today in games like âCommand and Conquerâ, âAge of Empiresâ and âStarcraftâ." 11:39:17 <TrueBrain> it is concidered to be VERY annoying by players 11:39:17 <Elukka> those games also all work :P 11:39:30 <TrueBrain> Starcraft doesnt use p2p for sure 11:39:33 <TrueBrain> most C&C neither 11:39:49 <TrueBrain> AoE also uses S/C 11:39:53 <Elukka> really? 11:40:02 <TrueBrain> (the fact you have to click Start Host and Join Host, gives that away) 11:40:05 <Elukka> i didn't think much any RTS used server/client 11:40:10 <Elukka> well, world in conflict does 11:40:15 <Elukka> that's just UI stuff 11:40:17 <TrueBrain> FreeCIV 11:40:19 <b_jonas> TrueBrain: isn't that because startcraft is optimized for just two players? 11:40:26 <TrueBrain> b_jonas: sssttt :P 11:40:30 <TrueBrain> most of these games are :) 11:40:34 <Elukka> someone has to create a game room and others have to join it, doesn't matter what the underlying code does to network it 11:40:49 <Elukka> every game that uses peer to peer networking still has a "host game" button 11:40:57 <TrueBrain> Elukka: what some of thse games have is 'autosense' server. They figure out who will be best to host it 11:41:05 <Elukka> and i'm pretty sure CoD is server/client 11:41:08 <Elukka> they just took control away from the player 11:41:20 <TrueBrain> Elukka: I am 100% sure CoD is S/C 11:41:23 <TrueBrain> I told you that already 11:41:27 <TrueBrain> they use migration techniques 11:41:31 <Elukka> ah, right 11:41:32 <TrueBrain> to move the host when the host goes down 11:41:36 <TrueBrain> which is the worst idea ever 11:41:50 <TrueBrain> then again CoD is just to get money from you, not to invent the industry (like CoD1 did) 11:42:10 <Elukka> http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=1517789 11:42:12 *** Devedse_ [~Devedse@ip254-077.stu-laptops.HZeeland.nl] has joined #openttd 11:42:15 <Elukka> this paper says starcraft uses peer to peer 11:42:18 <TrueBrain> (as seriously, BlackOps costs 60 euro, + 15 euro per 4 maps, and there are 5 packs now ... 135 euro for a game + 20 maps? REALLY?!) 11:42:38 <norbert79> TrueBrain: A bargain, isn't it? :) 11:42:44 <peter1138> heh 11:42:50 <TrueBrain> that people buy it, I don't understand 11:42:55 <TrueBrain> in the old days maps were FREE 11:43:00 <TrueBrain> I had 1000 maps to play on 11:43:04 <norbert79> I am also for freedom, being able to create own stuff and such 11:43:10 <norbert79> aye 11:43:12 <peter1138> doom was awesome 11:43:17 <Elukka> and starcraf is so popular if it was possible to cheat through its peer to peer networking it'd have been done years ago 11:43:20 <TrueBrain> Elukka: and here is a conflict in the term p2p. That is not p2p. That is peer to peer, sure, but has nothing to do with distribution. It is a client/client model (2 players) 11:43:21 <peter1138> i loved making wads 11:43:25 <norbert79> Doom introduced that, yet I was a BUILD-er with Duke Nukem and Shadow Warrior 11:43:29 <peter1138> but damn that compiler thingy was slow :) 11:43:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i really hate games where you cannot create random maps 11:43:45 <Elukka> what's your definition of p2p? 11:43:52 <TrueBrain> Elukka: p2p suggests distribution over clients 11:43:54 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Take your mouse, close yolur eyes, do stuff, and be suprised! :) 11:44:00 <TrueBrain> no server, a cloud of clients, all interconnected with their closest 11:44:04 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: There you go, random map! 11:44:05 <TrueBrain> Torrent as the biggest example 11:44:14 <peter1138> technically openttd could handle server switching 11:44:16 <TrueBrain> Starcraft is a basic client/client model 11:44:17 <Elukka> in these games there is no server hosting the game 11:44:24 <TrueBrain> they are all servers 11:44:29 <peter1138> all clients should have exactly the same game state, after all 11:44:29 <TrueBrain> and there is the difference in concept 11:44:34 <Eddi|zuHause> the worms 3d random maps were all weird 11:44:38 <TrueBrain> peter1138: ghehe; yes :P 11:44:39 <peter1138> but it would still be S/C with switching 11:44:40 <Elukka> they're all servers or all clients... isn't that pretty much what p2p means 11:44:48 <TrueBrain> peter1138: indeed, S/C migration. Ugh :P 11:44:48 *** Devedse__ [~Devedse@kbl-tnz7681.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #openttd 11:44:52 <TrueBrain> Elukka: no :) 11:44:58 <TrueBrain> by definition, no :) But this is the problem with these terms 11:45:02 <TrueBrain> they changed a lot over the last few years 11:45:17 <TrueBrain> client/client models can not grow beyond 4 clients 11:45:21 <peter1138> they probably mean "p2p" as in "without a dedicated server" 11:45:25 <TrueBrain> after that, it becomes .... not smart :) 11:45:33 <TrueBrain> as all clients are connected to all clients 11:45:39 <TrueBrain> imagine a game of 255 (OpenTTD) clients connected 11:45:43 <Elukka> homeworld 2 did 6 players 11:45:43 <TrueBrain> 255 open ports to all 255 other players 11:45:46 <Elukka> homeworld 1 did 8 11:45:50 <TrueBrain> 6 is streching it, it really is 11:46:08 <TrueBrain> several issues with client/client model: you _all_ need an open port in your firewall 11:46:09 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: fancy automatic network topologies 11:46:14 <TrueBrain> which is a huge issue for many home users 11:46:24 <Eddi|zuHause> like hypercubes and such 11:46:25 <TrueBrain> this can be solved by having 1 client open ports to the other 11:46:29 <norbert79> What about p2p gameplay for openttd? Where the whole game acts like a torrent client, and the main server is the tracker 11:46:30 <TrueBrain> but at least 49% of the clients require that 11:46:38 <peter1138> l4d's lobby system was a pita 11:46:45 <TrueBrain> norbert79: well, that is the normal concept of the term p2p these days 11:46:52 <TrueBrain> which has nothing to do with client/client models 11:47:01 <norbert79> TrueBrain: No, that has been overruled by DHT too 11:47:08 <TrueBrain> Elukka: so reading back Elukka, I guess we started off wrong with the different definition of that term (which I also tried to point out to you :)) 11:47:17 <TrueBrain> DHT is still p2p :) 11:47:20 <TrueBrain> just without server ;) 11:47:26 <norbert79> TrueBrain: Sure, but not centralized anymore 11:47:26 <TrueBrain> (well, no central server) 11:47:30 <norbert79> TrueBrain: :) 11:47:33 *** Devedse [~Devedse@ip254-077.stu-laptops.HZeeland.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:47:35 <Eddi|zuHause> DHT is just a p2p-tracker :p 11:47:36 <Elukka> well, i used the definition that's generally used in gaming context :P 11:47:37 <TrueBrain> more in the idea of what is it call 11:47:39 <TrueBrain> edonkey? 11:47:45 <TrueBrain> Elukka: for the last 5 years, no more 11:47:50 <norbert79> Edonkey was centralized 11:47:51 <TrueBrain> it is an old term, nowedays called client/client 11:48:04 <TrueBrain> norbert79: doesnt have to be :) 11:48:08 <TrueBrain> also searches 'the cloud' 11:48:30 <TrueBrain> Elukka: but still, imagine OpenTTD being client/client 11:48:34 <TrueBrain> you are on a map with 16 other players 11:48:38 <TrueBrain> you have 16 outgoing connections 11:48:41 <TrueBrain> you are all talking to eachother 11:48:46 <TrueBrain> what a waste of bandwidth, CPU, .. 11:48:51 <Elukka> which one is best for openttd is something i won't try to argue :P 11:49:02 <TrueBrain> well, you did ask if we were client/client or server/client 11:49:02 <peter1138> who would provide the clock? 11:49:10 <TrueBrain> peter1138: they all have the same state ;) 11:49:26 <peter1138> sure, but currently the server provides the clock 11:49:31 <peter1138> unless they all provide a clock 11:49:34 <TrueBrain> sure; but doesn't have to be ;) 11:49:37 <peter1138> which wouldn't make seense 11:49:44 <TrueBrain> so client/clent would be possible; but ugh, please dont :P 11:49:45 <peter1138> unless you desync them all :D 11:50:06 <peter1138> no, let's do it! 11:50:10 <TrueBrain> Elukka: but there are other reasons not to use client/client. Validation is another issue (again). Who to trust? 11:50:15 <TrueBrain> now a server does the filtering 11:50:25 <TrueBrain> and you can trust a server in general (or you dont, but it is up to you) 11:50:30 <TrueBrain> otherwise you have to validate every client that connects 11:50:31 <Elukka> i don't know how validation is handled in cleint/client games, just that it works :D 11:50:32 <TrueBrain> the horror :P 11:50:41 <TrueBrain> if I say: I move to tile B 11:50:43 <TrueBrain> and you say the same 11:50:45 <TrueBrain> who wins? 11:50:58 <Elukka> hmm. going back to where we started, why would multicore be a problem for openttd's server/client architecture? 11:51:02 <TrueBrain> there are collision protocols for that, sure, but ugh 11:51:17 <TrueBrain> Elukka: your server has 8 cores 11:51:19 <TrueBrain> your laptop has 1 11:51:24 <TrueBrain> good luck joining a game with 5000 trains 11:51:38 *** Devedse_ [~Devedse@ip254-077.stu-laptops.HZeeland.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:51:46 <peter1138> lies, my laptop has 4 cores 11:51:54 <TrueBrain> I am not talking about yours per 11:51:56 <TrueBrain> I am not talking about yours peter1138 11:51:58 <norbert79> Mine has only 1 :( but it's shiny! 11:51:59 <TrueBrain> I talked about Elukka's :P 11:52:14 <Markk> My phone has a dualcore CPU. 11:52:20 <norbert79> Markk: Cheater 11:52:26 <Elukka> my phone only has one 800 mhz core :( 11:52:26 <TrueBrain> Markk: it even has a few more CPUs in there :P 11:52:36 <Markk> TrueBrain: :> 11:52:37 <TrueBrain> Elukka: I promise you it has at least 2 more cores :P 11:52:44 <TrueBrain> not at 800 MHz 11:52:46 <TrueBrain> I have to admit :) 11:52:53 <Elukka> well it does have a graphics processing unit 11:53:05 <TrueBrain> it has a core specially to handle mobile traffic 11:53:30 <Elukka> but that 800 mhz cpu is what's relevant if i were to, say, download openttd to my phone 11:53:35 <TrueBrain> :P :P 11:53:38 <TrueBrain> I agree :) 11:53:46 <TrueBrain> well, to play 11:53:47 <peter1138> more importantly 11:53:49 <TrueBrain> to download we can argue about :P 11:53:51 <peter1138> you can't play openttd on a phone 11:53:55 <Elukka> sure you can 11:54:00 <peter1138> all the screens are way too tiny 11:54:01 <norbert79> If you have x86 support 11:54:05 <Markk> If you really, really want too. 11:54:07 <Elukka> there's an android port 11:54:09 <Markk> peter1138: HDMI out ftw? 11:54:10 <norbert79> well, some has 640x480 11:54:15 <TrueBrain> peter1138: ipad? :P 11:54:16 <peter1138> that's not *on* the phone :) 11:54:20 <Elukka> whether it's practical is another question :P 11:54:21 <TrueBrain> (is it a phone? :P) 11:54:21 <Markk> norbert79: Some? 11:54:27 <peter1138> norbert79, yes, my old htc exec is 640x480. it's still TOO SMALL 11:54:30 <Markk> norbert79: My old phone has 800*480 11:54:31 <peter1138> TrueBrain, no :P 11:54:32 <TWerkhoven> openttd will run on my phone, but the phone's too slow 11:54:48 <norbert79> Markk, peter1138: Well since OpenTTD comes with 640x480 in default, it should be enough, right? :) 11:54:48 <peter1138> norbert79, x86 support for what? :S 11:54:58 <peter1138> sure, you can fit the pixels on 11:55:03 <Elukka> my phone has 800x480 11:55:06 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: how do you get openttd onto an i* device, if it can't be part of the app store? 11:55:06 <peter1138> but you can't *play* it 11:55:09 <Elukka> i know fancier phones are more expensive 11:55:10 <norbert79> Elukka: So does my old Eee :D 11:55:11 <Elukka> err. 11:55:16 <Elukka> fancier phones have better screens* 11:55:19 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I did not jailbreak my apple hardware 11:55:20 <TrueBrain> wait .. 11:55:29 <b_jonas> so what? if you can play ttdpatch on 640x480 then why couldn't you play ottd as well? 11:55:35 <norbert79> peter1138: I used to play on 800x480, worked well, it was just the gfx driver causing an issue 11:56:07 <Eddi|zuHause> bÀh, three people with dark blue nicks talking at once is evil 11:56:15 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I agree 11:56:17 <Elukka> back when computers used 640x480, your screen was what, 15 inches 11:56:17 <TrueBrain> want me to kick one? 11:56:26 <Elukka> phone screens might be the same resolution but it's like 3-4 inches 11:56:30 <Elukka> much less screen space 11:56:33 <norbert79> Elukka: Aye... Used to mainly play in 320x200/240 11:56:51 <norbert79> Elukka: Sure, but that's where touchscreen comes in 11:56:57 <norbert79> Elukka: and a nice little pointer 11:57:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: i played TT on a 9" laptop screen, was fine :) 11:58:32 <peter1138> trust me 11:58:40 <peter1138> openttd on a 3" 640x480 display is *not* playable :p 11:58:51 <Elukka> i dunno how well a pointer would work with capacitive touchscreens 11:58:53 <norbert79> 3''... Well, agree on that :) 11:58:59 <Elukka> i guess they make special ones for them? 12:00:56 <peter1138> (shame the IBM T221s didn't catch on) 12:01:11 <peter1138> 3840x2400 on a 22" montiro 12:01:13 <peter1138> *monitor 12:01:29 <peter1138> openttd would be rather small there 12:02:02 <norbert79> peter1138: Sure, and I am lost, when looking for 1 train :D 12:02:05 <Eddi|zuHause> just enable double zoom... err... wait... 12:02:12 <peter1138> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/64/IBM_T221.jpg/735px-IBM_T221.jpg 12:02:20 <peter1138> ^ that regular 80x24 xterm is a bit lost :P 12:02:29 <norbert79> peter1138: Crazy... :D 12:02:32 <planetmaker> :-D 12:02:37 <Elukka> i don't get why 1920x1080 was picked as the gold standard max resolution for everything 12:02:44 <peter1138> HDTV 12:02:46 <Elukka> anything higher is really expensive specialty products 12:02:47 <TrueBrain> something to do with fullHD? :P 12:02:50 <norbert79> peter1138: Mine is a 6734-LB1... 17col, just fine 12:03:12 <norbert79> Elukka: because some idiot thought using these 'standards' would do the trick... 12:03:28 <norbert79> Elukka: Long live analouge... 12:03:49 <Elukka> digital seems flat out better to me though :P 12:03:53 <Eddi|zuHause> man, with two sleeping cats around, how can one not fall asleep?!? 12:03:58 <Elukka> too bad everything here is still standard definition 12:05:26 <Eddi|zuHause> <Elukka> i don't get why 1920x1080 was picked as the gold standard max resolution for everything <-- it was a way for the screen industry to get out of moore's law 12:06:41 <Elukka> digital HDTVs, yet everything is transmitted at SD... 12:07:25 <peter1138> i liked 4:3 :S 12:07:32 <TrueBrain> I liked 320x200 12:07:40 <peter1138> 16:10! 12:07:48 <peter1138> althogh not really 12:07:54 <peter1138> cos it's non-square :D 12:08:02 <peter1138> *non-square pixels 12:08:11 <TrueBrain> :D 12:08:13 <Elukka> i just wish the resolution wasn't 20 years in the past 12:08:15 <TrueBrain> at least you know your history ;) 12:08:32 <TrueBrain> drawing a circle back then was challlenging 12:08:36 <peter1138> i remember thinking that games couldn't possibly run at 640x480 12:08:42 <peter1138> cos the interface wasn't fast enough! 12:08:42 <Eddi|zuHause> what's non-square about 16:10 with 1680x1050? 12:08:58 <peter1138> (16 bit ISA was quite limiting) 12:09:18 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, nothing 12:09:20 <norbert79> Hmm, my good old AWE 64 ISA in my old 486... 12:09:26 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, 320x200, on the other hand... 12:09:31 <norbert79> Maybe I shall again hook up the oldie again 12:09:32 <Eddi|zuHause> how did my isa card then handle 1024x768? 12:10:08 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Slow... S3 (generic) couldn't barely refresh in Duke 3D. Where S3 Savage was quite ok 12:10:16 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, full screen moving image? sure... 12:10:40 <Eddi|zuHause> theoretically it also supported 1280x1024, but my screen couldn't handle that 12:11:06 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: My screen was a 14'' CRT... It could only handle 640x480 ok. 800x600 was running only on 50 hz 12:11:07 <Eddi|zuHause> that is one seriously weird resolution 12:11:09 <peter1138> 16bit ISA being limited to ~ 16MB/s 12:11:30 <peter1138> theoretically 12:11:35 <Eddi|zuHause> why not 1280x960, like any sane 4:3 display would use? 12:11:48 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: because 5:4 is more comfortable 12:12:11 <peter1138> mode x! 12:12:18 <peter1138> 360x240 and the like 12:12:26 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: and that is why we have 16:9 nowadays? 12:12:28 <peter1138> 360x400 if it was a really odd game 12:12:39 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: And that is why I still have a 5:4 LCD :) 12:12:44 <peter1138> we have 16:9 now because someone decided that widescreen was better 12:13:01 <norbert79> Aye, movies came with widescreen, because thats more "realistic" 12:13:09 <norbert79> so people started using desktops on that resolution 12:13:15 <norbert79> and some bloke started calling it HD... 12:13:21 <peter1138> i don't actually mind widescreen 12:13:28 <peter1138> but the stupid 1080 height :S 12:13:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i find widescreen way more comfortable 12:13:49 <peter1138> there are some higher resolutions, but only on massive screens 12:13:52 <Eddi|zuHause> don't know how i ever lived without 12:13:55 <norbert79> Well, if I would own a 16:9, I would rather use it on 9:16, since I am reading more, than watching movies. 12:14:04 <peter1138> or that T221 :D 12:14:20 <peter1138> my 16:10 can be rotated 12:14:28 <peter1138> but the pixel alignment feels wrong 12:14:37 <norbert79> peter1138: Lucky for you, the only good thing on that, since it 'emultes' newspaper 12:14:44 <norbert79> emulates 12:14:54 <peter1138> hmm, £1000 for a T221 12:16:09 <norbert79> Besides, I think 16:9 for coding is the worst resolution ever, unless 9:16 12:16:30 <peter1138> oh, japan :S 12:18:28 <norbert79> I wonder how playable OpenTTD would be on 9:16 or 10:16 12:19:21 <Markk> I have two 1920*1080 (16:9) screens besides eachother. 12:19:46 <Markk> (That I play OpenTTD on that is) 12:19:50 <norbert79> That would be way too much space for me 12:20:09 <SpComb> 10:16 is enough to loose a window somewhere 12:20:10 <norbert79> I can't even handle two virtual screens on Linux... it's just too much. 12:20:15 <SpComb> the vertical distance is more than one's used to 12:21:51 <Eddi|zuHause> two 16:9 screens on top of each other? 12:22:22 <Eddi|zuHause> my graphics card can only handle one digital output 12:22:35 <Elukka> widescreen is nicer just because of the ways our eyes are arranged on our heads 12:22:51 <Eddi|zuHause> DVI+VGA or HDNI+VGA 12:23:12 <Eddi|zuHause> which makes it problematic for dual screen 12:23:59 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: widescreen portrait 12:24:03 <norbert79> Two 16:9 each side is just useful if some plays a simulator game, like plane simulator or car/truck simulation 12:24:13 <norbert79> otherwise it's just useless 12:24:21 <Markk> Should be three screen. 12:24:24 <Markk> I rather have three. 12:24:37 <Markk> But my workstation can't handle three screens. :/ 12:24:38 <Markk> (laptop) 12:24:40 <SpComb> http://photos.qmsk.net/20110829-l220x/P8294054.JPG.html 12:24:51 <b_jonas> norbert79: I thought it was useful for architects and other engineers who would otherwise draw designs on very large tables 12:25:17 <norbert79> b_jonas: never done CAD work, yet in the past they could also manage without widescreen, didn't they? ;-)) 12:25:24 <norbert79> b_jonas: Anyway, probably 12:26:02 <planetmaker> I guess they managed with double screen ;-) 12:26:22 <b_jonas> norbert79: I don't know, I'm not an engineer 12:26:56 <norbert79> planetmaker: Well, if we think about it, mainframes are to be handled with two montiors at start: primary console, and regular secondary login console :) 12:26:59 <b_jonas> basicaly I use a 16:10 screen because if you want a large TFT the only ones you can buy are 10:16 or 9:16 ratio 12:27:13 <norbert79> planetmaker: So from this perspective, it's in use sonce the 1960's :) 12:27:14 <planetmaker> norbert79: but they're not made for CAD 12:27:32 <planetmaker> For CAD you had something like SGI Onyx or so. And they came with 2x 24" already in 1998 12:27:53 <norbert79> planetmaker: No, they weren't. Yes, probably, pity SGI never managed to survive 12:28:12 <planetmaker> was a cool machine ;-) 12:28:23 <b_jonas> I thought they still survive as a software manufacturer, right? 12:28:27 <planetmaker> And I wondered why the same code I wrote on that produced oom on my PC at home :-P 12:28:32 <norbert79> back in the 90's, they were way overhead of regular PC's 12:28:57 <norbert79> planetmaker: Thanks to SGI we have OpenGL too 12:28:59 <planetmaker> and then I did the memory math :-) 12:29:53 <Markk> http://i.solidfiles.net/49a2.jpg 12:29:54 <Eddi|zuHause> you quickly lose track of such stuff :p 12:29:55 <Markk> That's my config 12:30:14 <norbert79> trollface. ftw :D 12:30:18 <Markk> :D 12:30:31 <norbert79> Markk: When does the nharwal bacon? 12:30:55 <Markk> At midnight. 12:31:01 <norbert79> Good boy 12:31:02 <norbert79> :) 12:31:10 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:6d76:e618:e16e:1c48] has joined #openttd 12:31:11 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:31:11 <Markk> :) 12:31:48 *** roboboy [3aad2b37@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 12:32:25 <norbert79> Markk: Don't you get lost within so much space? I see, that you mainly use the left side only. 12:32:42 <Markk> Nah, i use both sides. 12:32:48 <Markk> It's at my work. 12:33:10 <Markk> So I have OMT (our ticket system) and Excel at the left screen and IRC, Firefox etc. on the right screen. 12:33:19 <Markk> An ye, outlook at the left screen as well. 12:33:30 <Markk> But I would really need another screen. 12:33:43 <b_jonas> work on one screen, play on another screen? 12:33:54 <Markk> I played on both screens before. :) 12:34:13 <norbert79> Markk: http://www-06.ibm.com/jp/pc/media/option/picture/l170m_r.jpg - That's my display, 17'' 12:34:28 <b_jonas> ah, so you want work on one screen, play on two screens, and the screen with work facing to the door so it's the only one the boss can see? 12:34:48 <planetmaker> :-D 12:34:54 <Markk> When i play I play on both screens. 12:34:55 <Markk> :) 12:35:01 <Markk> I can't always play like. 12:35:18 <Markk> I did that during the summer when we had 2 tickets a day like. 12:35:27 <Markk> A bit more to do now. 12:36:08 <b_jonas> you know, I can believe you 12:36:16 <b_jonas> because when I first bought this large screen, I couldn't use it 12:36:25 <b_jonas> I didn't understand what I could do with so much an area 12:36:33 <Markk> :D 12:36:36 <b_jonas> now I know and I have difficulty working on smaller screens 12:36:41 <Markk> Yep 12:37:11 <Eddi|zuHause> it's like buying a new HD and thinking "how could i ever fill this with data?" 12:37:18 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: exactly 12:37:21 <Markk> The normal screens that you get when you start here is one 22" 1680*1050 (16:10) screen. 12:37:23 <b_jonas> and now I want a bigger hard disk 12:37:24 <Markk> I hated it. 12:38:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i remember this thinking when i got a new 420MB(!) disk to expand the 80MB i already had 12:38:08 <Markk> So I talked to my boss (whom is my teamleaders boss as well) who accepted my request for two 22" 1920*1080 screens. 12:38:23 <Eddi|zuHause> now i have like 5TB filled 12:38:35 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: 420 MB... Conner disk, right? 12:38:37 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: Haha, ye, same here when I bought a 250GB hard drive back in 2005. 12:38:44 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Had the same, if yes 12:39:12 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: i'm fairly sure it was a Western Digital 12:39:12 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: how much of that 5 TB is movies? 12:39:32 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: I see, well WD was much better quality back then. Mine was CONNER 12:39:47 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: about 90%. some of it uncut tv recordings 12:39:54 <b_jonas> I see 12:40:17 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: http://images.esellerpro.com/2131/I/166/97/medscaleCFS425A.jpg 12:40:57 <norbert79> I have even trouble organizing my 100 GB of own stuff. Almost 60 Gb are games, 12 GB of Music, and rest books and army material :) 12:41:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i have 1TB movie archive, 2.5TB series archive, and 1TB unsorted recordings 12:41:04 <norbert79> rest is all different 12:41:18 <Eddi|zuHause> games get pretty large as well nowadays 12:41:42 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Indeed. 12:42:12 <norbert79> yet for some I don't understand the need of 10-15 GB? 12:42:12 <Eddi|zuHause> and i don't even have any HD stuff yet 12:42:19 <norbert79> Especially for single player games... Why? 12:42:32 <Eddi|zuHause> fancy graphics 12:42:48 <norbert79> Heh... Not impressed if doesn't improve gameplay. 12:43:11 <norbert79> like spotting a sniper rifle, because the sun reflected from the optic 12:44:06 <norbert79> But even physics are weird in recent games too. The best physics used was by Carmageddon 2 12:44:11 <norbert79> that was fun 12:44:28 <Eddi|zuHause> it's crazy how fast Civ V suddenly gets, when you switch to the strategic map :p 12:45:44 <norbert79> The best graphic/story/physics balanced game I have played was Max Payne 1 and 2... 12:46:07 <norbert79> While 1 had no real physics, the mood and the story gave that plus 12:46:17 <norbert79> despite single only 12:46:34 <norbert79> Mafia 1 rocks also 12:47:25 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody develops good story/gameplay anymore. everything is fancy graphics. 12:47:39 <Eddi|zuHause> look at how many balance tweaks Civ V got over the past year 12:48:01 <Eddi|zuHause> like they never playtested it before... 12:48:03 <norbert79> Aye, that's why we are all fans of OpenTTD. But regarding simulations, there is also less to offer. Atragon has some good ones, yet I love SCS's German Truck Simulator 12:48:13 <norbert79> Astragon 12:50:10 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: What about Amnesia, The dark Descent ;-) ? 12:50:15 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Ever tried it? :D 12:50:33 <Eddi|zuHause> no idea what genre that even is 12:50:40 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Try it ;-) 12:51:12 <norbert79> Horror, but from the less bloody type :) 12:51:40 <norbert79> it goes under your skin 12:51:49 <norbert79> and your only task is to survive 12:51:51 <norbert79> no weapons 13:00:13 *** erik1984 [~erik1984@vhe-490300.sshn.net] has quit [Quit: Doei!] 13:07:47 <Belugas> hello 13:16:31 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 13:17:27 <norbert79> Hey Belugas 13:19:31 <Belugas> hi sir 13:21:58 <norbert79> How are you today Belugas ? 13:26:46 <Belugas> still sick, still busy, still alive ;) 13:26:51 <Belugas> and you? 13:28:36 <norbert79> Same :D 13:29:16 <norbert79> Minor headache, too short sleep during night 13:34:31 *** Doorslammer [7da86216@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 13:38:00 <Belugas> that's the season , i guess :) 13:55:28 <Belugas> #She comes out like a white shadow 14:14:03 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-045-030.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 14:20:33 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 14:44:45 <norbert79> Going 127.0.0.1... Finally.. Later everyone! 14:44:49 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice1n2.emea.ibm.com] has left #openttd [Exit stage left...] 14:47:42 *** Matthias [~chatzilla@p5492E7BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 14:48:52 <Matthias> Hello, is it possible to delet your uploaded files on bananas? 14:49:37 <Terkhen> why do you want to delete them? 14:50:24 <Matthias> I can't rename it so i have to delet it and upload it with another name again... 14:51:35 <Terkhen> I would upload the file with the new name instead of updating the old one; if the old file were deleted it wouldn't be possible to find it for loading old savegames and so on 14:52:24 <Matthias> but they have the same grf_id and the same content... 14:52:38 <Terkhen> sorry, I don't know what would happen in that case 14:52:54 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-78-146-185-183.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 14:52:56 <Terkhen> maybe a new name is a change big enough to warrant a new grfid 14:53:29 <Matthias> ok... 14:53:33 <TrueBrain> it is; no 1 grfid should have 2 names 14:53:39 <TrueBrain> kinda defeats the purpose of everything :) 14:54:29 <TrueBrain> in fact, no 2 uploads should have the same grfid 14:54:31 <planetmaker> what kind of name change, Matthias? 14:54:32 <TrueBrain> in general :) 14:54:35 <Matthias> then the old "ghost"-set will exist forever :D 14:55:15 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: Renaming a NewGRF should usually not matter much, should it? 14:55:18 <Matthias> Do you know TARS and DACH? 14:55:20 <Matthias> And do you know "Yoshi"? (That's me!) 14:55:27 <planetmaker> Yeah 14:55:31 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 14:55:33 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: means clients download 2 grfs with the same ID 14:55:43 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: same grf, re-named is the issue 14:56:02 <planetmaker> i.e. version 1.0 "Blue trains only". version 1.1 "Blue and red train set" 14:56:29 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: that also gets a new grfID, does it not? 14:56:37 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: why? 14:56:47 <TrueBrain> new version? 14:56:53 <planetmaker> It's 100% compatible just a few more trains? 14:56:57 <planetmaker> Never got a new grfID 14:57:06 <Matthias> The grf was named TARS (Total Alpine Replacement Set) but now its DACH (D-CH-A tripoint set)! 14:57:07 <TrueBrain> hmm, if it just extends it is possible 14:57:11 <TrueBrain> still silly ;) 14:57:12 <Matthias> Same content 14:57:18 <planetmaker> Nowadays it shouldn't. We have NewGRF version for that via action14 14:57:19 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: it only increases confusion :) 14:57:41 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: that's why renaming a set as shown in online content should be feasible 14:57:50 <planetmaker> a set might grow. Or have typo 14:57:53 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: that is exactly why it should not :) 14:58:14 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: wrong ;-) 14:58:15 <TrueBrain> the idea of the whole BaNaNaS is: once uploaded, always uploaded. With that name, that version, that GRFID 14:58:26 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: it's not about changing an existing _file 14:58:32 <planetmaker> it's about what is displayed 14:58:41 <planetmaker> when browsing online content 14:58:44 <TrueBrain> so make it a new grf, the system doesnt care :) 14:58:59 <planetmaker> it does. the grfID would need changing 14:59:06 <TrueBrain> exactly :) 14:59:07 <planetmaker> I'm afraid you miss the issue at hand 14:59:13 <TrueBrain> and I think you miss the issue :) 14:59:20 <planetmaker> ok, slowly: 14:59:25 <TrueBrain> client A downloads grf B with ID C 14:59:29 <TrueBrain> you rename it, and B becomes D 14:59:32 <TrueBrain> client A downloads grf D with ID C 14:59:38 <TrueBrain> so now he has 2 grf files with the same ID 14:59:39 <TrueBrain> always bad 14:59:41 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: _existing_ content is NOT my issue 14:59:55 <TrueBrain> for a new upload, you can give a new name 15:00:01 <planetmaker> But when I want to update a set, the name might change. 15:00:05 <planetmaker> And that exactly I CANNOT 15:00:08 <TrueBrain> renaming by definition is always about existing information :) 15:00:11 <planetmaker> I can only change the name in the grf 15:00:15 <planetmaker> but not what bananas tells us 15:00:28 <Rubidium> planetmaker: as far as I am aware you get the option to "change" the name when uploading a new version 15:00:39 <planetmaker> i.e. OpenGFX+Airports is still called airportsplus 15:00:42 <planetmaker> And a normal user can't change that 15:00:48 *** Devedse__ [~Devedse@kbl-tnz7681.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:00:59 <planetmaker> Same with the some other set which got the version in the name. No way to rectify that 15:01:04 <Rubidium> once it's uploaded, then it shouldn't change name anymore as it is the filename as well 15:01:05 *** mib_22i2t2 [58411578@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 15:01:06 <TrueBrain> existing uploads should never be changed; not even by admins 15:01:09 <planetmaker> Rubidium: no 15:01:25 <Rubidium> planetmaker: then that should be fixed I'd say 15:02:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Matthias: what you should do is disable downloading of the old grf for all versions, and then upload the new version with new name. 15:02:33 <Rubidium> though I seem to remember more should be fixed some day 15:02:35 <planetmaker> http://imagebin.org/173405 <-- that thing can't be changed 15:02:39 <V453000> pm: where can I get a firs nightly with the changed supplying mechanism? 2604 from bundles/firs seems not to include that 15:02:51 <planetmaker> V453000: nowhere 15:02:59 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: whch is completely by design (documents) 15:03:03 <planetmaker> it's not finished written yet 15:03:26 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: I'm afraid that's bad. 15:03:34 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: I see no reason why the name can't be changed for a new version 15:03:57 <V453000> oh :( 15:03:58 <TrueBrain> when BaNaNaS was designed, that was one of the requirements in fact :) 15:04:15 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: requirements can change 15:04:21 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: that for sure :) 15:04:29 <Rubidium> ghehe... where's that requirements document? 15:04:35 <TrueBrain> the reasoning is simple: a grfID should be identiable by its name 15:04:49 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: you really wan tme to look that up? :P it was written down for a change :) 15:04:53 <planetmaker> grfID should suffice 15:04:59 <TrueBrain> as there was some debate about some elements 15:05:05 <Eddi|zuHause> why would that be necessary? 15:05:21 <Rubidium> but I guess it's just ambiguously worded designs 15:05:23 <TrueBrain> because back then there was quiet a nice naming schema some people had :P 15:05:53 <TrueBrain> basically it has to do with uniqueness 15:06:08 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: but this way I never could rectify a typo, as if I wrote "Sweaty Rails" by accident as opposed to "Swedish Rails" 15:06:12 <TrueBrain> atm BaNaNaS has this approach: a grfID can only exist once in the database for any name+version 15:06:15 <planetmaker> and only noticed after uploading the first version 15:06:42 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: the solution is a new grfID and a new upload; that has been from start (and always has been used in the beginning. I can't speak from after that, as I didnt track that :P) 15:06:45 <planetmaker> it would be sweaty rails for all eternity - or I'd have to break savegame compatibility for no good reason 15:07:24 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: One single NewGRF never changed grfID. Unless it was totally incompatible to the previous versions 15:07:25 <Rubidium> I'd reckon the requirement is worded like: "after uploading the name can't be changed" 15:07:26 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: btw, bold assumptions on your part ;) 15:07:59 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: no, it is worded like: a name should be bind to a grfID, unique and global 15:08:14 <TrueBrain> (in less fancy words, but I hav eot look it up to give you an exact quote :P) 15:08:30 <TrueBrain> anyway, it is over very low relevance how things were 5 years ago 15:08:32 *** Matthias [~chatzilla@p5492E7BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:08:36 <TrueBrain> in fact, of 0 relevance :) 15:08:53 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: how about adding a(n additional) name for each version? 15:08:54 <TrueBrain> all I can tel you: it is by design, as we wanted to force a single name for a grf over time 15:08:57 <planetmaker> ok, can we just agree that the design and requirement at that point is not ideal (anymore) and should be revised there? 15:09:18 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: many things within BaNaNaS have to be revised 15:09:25 <planetmaker> grdID unique - of course. But there are good reasons the name bound to it could change 15:09:27 <TrueBrain> for example, if a version action exist, it should be used ;) 15:09:45 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: the idea was to avoid people changing the name every upload, for every version 15:09:45 <planetmaker> that's advanced class ;-) 15:09:53 <planetmaker> I understand that 15:09:59 <TrueBrain> that was the idea behind it, and that is what isimplemented. All I can say about it :) 15:10:07 <TrueBrain> changing it .. well .. we have been over that many times before :) 15:10:08 <planetmaker> but the reverse conclusion "don't ever allow" is not good either 15:10:24 <TrueBrain> it is a result of such constraint :) I am sure nobody considered it back then 15:10:28 <planetmaker> so, for now: could we change it on a single-intervention basis? 15:10:37 <planetmaker> for where it really is needed? 15:10:42 <TrueBrain> to a what? 15:11:01 <planetmaker> I mean just editing the name in the DB or so :-) 15:11:11 <TrueBrain> you cannot (and never should want to) rename an existing entry 15:11:13 <TrueBrain> so that is not possible 15:11:17 <planetmaker> I didn't dare to dig there too deep in fear of breaking something 15:11:46 <TrueBrain> your only options are to allow editing of th ename field during uploading, but I am afraid there are a few hard constraints on it during upload 15:11:58 <TrueBrain> (I believe it does a query on the name to fetch relative parents) 15:12:03 <planetmaker> hm, I feared that answer 15:12:14 *** Matthias [~chatzilla@p4FD67894.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 15:12:14 <planetmaker> it should query grfID 15:12:21 <TrueBrain> so, as with any software, to change a constraints of a design document is hard, to say the least 15:12:28 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-78-146-185-183.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:12:38 <planetmaker> yeah... :S 15:12:55 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-78-146-185-183.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 15:12:59 <TrueBrain> so we come back to the same old story: write a freaking replacement :) 15:13:21 <planetmaker> meh 15:13:24 <TrueBrain> BaNaNaS was both written in a hurry as written with little knowledge of the domain (as it was new and well, it was said to never kick off) 15:13:43 <TrueBrain> nowedays I wonder if a user downloads grfs manually :P 15:13:49 <TrueBrain> that would be a nice survey ... :) 15:14:10 <planetmaker> Matthias: so the short answer is: no, it's not possible. For anyone 15:14:43 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: btw, if such change would be made, it has to be considered carefully to dont get a renegade of names 15:14:50 <TrueBrain> something like moderator approval or something 15:15:02 <Matthias> :( 15:15:04 <Matthias> so i have to leave the old ones there and make an new upload with a new grfid? 15:15:04 <planetmaker> we don't have that now either, do we? 15:15:23 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: no; that is wha tI am saying, you would want that :) 15:15:25 <planetmaker> Matthias: or keep the name 15:15:37 <TrueBrain> the abuse of the version field is already laughable at best 15:16:12 <planetmaker> hm... I guess some versions are interesting, but well? 15:16:43 <TrueBrain> "zeta for bananas" <- version string :D 15:17:07 <planetmaker> yeah, well 15:17:14 <dihedral> PreAlpha 3.1 <- i like this one too 15:17:23 <planetmaker> :-) 15:17:34 <planetmaker> People have fun(k/n)y version schemes 15:17:42 <dihedral> and 'all' :-) 15:17:46 <Matthias> and you can't delete content? 15:18:18 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: the only 'sane' solution I see is to force the version action, and make sure grfid+version is always unique 15:18:31 <TrueBrain> then you can lose the constraint on the name much easier 15:19:00 <Eddi|zuHause> "renaming" of GRFs without GRF-ID change has happened even before BaNaNaS was invented 15:19:14 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: yes it has :) 15:19:18 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: is that requirement supposed to be in http://devs.openttd.org/~truebrain/contentProvider.txt ? 15:19:29 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I cleaned up my dev-space, I sure hope not :P 15:19:32 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: the version action should be part of any sane newgrf, yes 15:19:42 <TrueBrain> a 404 page, how nice :) 15:19:53 <dihedral> quite pretty 15:19:55 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. the name changed from "DBSet" (version <= 0.5) to "DBSetXL" (version > 0.5) 15:20:15 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: is that the worst you can do? :D 15:20:23 <Eddi|zuHause> yes :p 15:20:26 <dihedral> ha! no wonder i used to look for the DBSet for ages 15:21:50 <TrueBrain> Matthias: no, you cannot delete content from BaNaNaS. 15:22:06 <TrueBrain> you can, however, make it non-public, as in: it wont show in the content lists 15:22:15 <TrueBrain> it will always be fetchable from the storage 15:22:21 <Matthias> and the admin not, too? 15:22:23 <Matthias> (who is the "admin"?) 15:22:26 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: it's right there on http://www.ttdpatch.net/newgrf.html 15:22:35 <planetmaker> Matthias: you talked to the creator of bananans ;-) 15:22:45 <planetmaker> (TB) 15:22:51 <TrueBrain> any developer can strictly seen do it, but they can also just relay such information just fine :) 15:23:04 <planetmaker> :-P 15:23:12 <TrueBrain> but by policy we never delete stuff 15:23:20 <TrueBrain> (unless there is a violation of some kind) 15:23:28 <TrueBrain> people uploading copyrighted shit ;) 15:23:41 <TrueBrain> well, even these are not deleted, but made hidden, and marked as: BAD BAD BAD GRF :P 15:23:42 <planetmaker> yeah. Making it unavailable would suffice 15:23:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Matthias: imagine someone who created a game with your uploaded version, now you change the name (and thus the md5sum), now people cannot continue their game, if you delete the grf 15:24:24 <TrueBrain> nicely worded Eddi|zuHause 15:25:41 <Eddi|zuHause> note that all this could have been prevented if the name of the grf hadn't been decided 5 minutes before the release :) 15:26:34 <planetmaker> :-) 15:26:45 <TrueBrain> a new name has to give a mismatch in md5 in any case, so :P 15:26:46 <planetmaker> Matthias: what is now the name on bananas? TARS? 15:26:50 <TrueBrain> yuo need to change something silly :D 15:26:52 <planetmaker> Just keep it. It's good enough 15:27:30 <Matthias> <planetmaker>TARS, yes... 15:27:50 <Matthias> and as you know of tt-ms now it's DACh 15:28:00 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: btw, better idea for renmaing might be aliasing, and only having one of the two public. Just as idea ;) 15:28:01 <planetmaker> It's ambitious - so what :-) See it as options :-) 15:28:21 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: that would work, too. But just two? ;-) 15:28:30 <TrueBrain> one of the <set> 15:28:32 <TrueBrain> sigh :P 15:28:34 <planetmaker> :-P 15:28:38 * planetmaker hugs TrueBrain 15:28:49 * TrueBrain hugs planetmaker back; you are such a cuty :P 15:29:37 <Matthias> ok... i 'll try something... bye 15:29:50 *** Matthias [~chatzilla@p4FD67894.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 6.0.2/20110902133214]] 15:30:31 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: curious, is the version action a number or a string? 15:30:45 <planetmaker> it's a dword 15:30:50 <TrueBrain> ascending? 15:30:51 <planetmaker> thus number 15:30:52 <planetmaker> yes 15:30:55 <TrueBrain> how nice :) 15:31:05 <planetmaker> well. OpenTTD will (by default) only display the highest one 15:31:09 <planetmaker> you could use it erratically 15:31:22 <TrueBrain> yeah, but so OpenTTD 'forces' ascending versioning 15:31:24 <TrueBrain> which is good :) 15:31:36 <TrueBrain> it was always one of those things that annoyed me :) 15:31:42 <planetmaker> yup. And there's a 'min compatible version', too. Same properties 15:31:56 <planetmaker> Thus bananans could (and probably should) then take care of that, too 15:32:07 <planetmaker> and offer several versions, if needed ;-) 15:32:09 <TrueBrain> bananans? :D 15:32:10 <TrueBrain> hihi 15:32:19 <planetmaker> bnananananananananananaaassss 15:32:22 <planetmaker> or something ;-) 15:32:27 <TrueBrain> worst name ever, I still love it :) 15:32:38 <planetmaker> it's a good one :-) 15:32:46 <planetmaker> every monkey grabs a banana 15:32:51 <planetmaker> ;-) 15:33:45 <TrueBrain> next step for BaNaNaS is to name the files based on their grfid+version 15:33:48 <TrueBrain> solves all problems :D 15:34:08 <TrueBrain> (then everything else is meta-data and can be freely changed when-ever) 15:34:35 <planetmaker> md5sum is more unique :-) 15:35:32 <TrueBrain> I can proof you wrong there, but for the common sense, yeah, lets use that :D 15:35:48 <TrueBrain> it seriously would be better, system-wise. Just horrible for any human trying to look at those directories :) 15:36:10 <planetmaker> yes, quite. Thus one could combine it 15:36:30 <Eddi|zuHause> would be very evil if someone generated a grf with same md5sum :p 15:36:43 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: yup; it would :) 15:36:54 *** mib_22i2t2 [58411578@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 15:37:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i should try that in CETS :) 15:37:09 <planetmaker> :-D 15:37:27 <TrueBrain> its funny, the database is prepared for multi-author; I wonder where that went wrong .. I believe in the frontend .. 15:38:10 <planetmaker> lack of motivation? ;-) 15:38:20 <TrueBrain> I remember there was an issue; I just cant remember what 15:38:30 <planetmaker> like "first let's test run this" - and provisional things last an eternity. We all know 15:38:54 <TrueBrain> there is also a karma system in the database 15:39:04 <TrueBrain> which was meant to allow self-moderation within BaNaNaS 15:39:20 <planetmaker> ui 15:39:28 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like an awfully wrong way to do things 15:39:38 <TrueBrain> back then it was 'hot' 15:40:38 <planetmaker> :-) 15:42:22 <TrueBrain> out of the 4.2k old users, only 0.5k ever merged their account; the rest are still dangling :P 15:44:05 <planetmaker> huch? That low quota? 15:44:16 <TrueBrain> I was expecting a higher number myself 15:44:56 <TrueBrain> we now have 5k users in the new setup 15:45:19 <TrueBrain> too bad we store no data to track users, what they do and how often they return .. 15:45:25 <TrueBrain> darn is, why do we throw away logs! :P 15:45:31 <planetmaker> :-) Ok that's more than before. Maybe there's a certain number which just created a new acount 15:45:46 <TrueBrain> many did, as they couldnt' remember their passwords :P 15:45:58 <planetmaker> :-) 15:46:40 <TrueBrain> anyway, all this talk about BaNaNaS, why is nobody stepping up to make a new piece of software for it? 15:46:43 * TrueBrain looks around 16:06:30 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-180-205.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 16:14:20 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@027af850.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 16:15:14 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: as manythings, it's already advanced class ;-) 16:15:36 <planetmaker> DB 310 and webdesign 301 or so 16:15:56 <Elukka> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Sun_and_VY_Canis_Majoris.svg/1000px-Sun_and_VY_Canis_Majoris.svg.png 16:15:57 <Elukka> love this pic 16:16:30 <__ln__> photoshopped 16:16:44 <Elukka> lol 16:17:07 <Elukka> the scale should be right 16:17:19 <Elukka> it's about 2000 times the radius of the sun 16:20:20 <appe> http://gyazo.com/836b86ce08c8ff98de82844db46b68ca 16:20:27 <appe> you see the rails to the right? 16:20:53 <appe> i want the trains to go to the left, then right, then left, and so on. 16:21:07 <appe> and i cant really get the signals to work properly. got tip? 16:21:07 <appe> :) 16:22:06 <planetmaker> appe: search the coop wiki for logic network 16:22:14 <appe> ok 16:23:38 *** tparker [~tparker@2600:3c03::1d:4242] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:24:42 <KenjiE20> oddly, I don't think we have any image examples, they're in saved games =/ 16:25:07 <planetmaker> that'd be unfortunate then. In the blog maybe? 16:26:01 <V453000> ABR 02 16:26:13 <V453000> you want flipflop I suppose 16:26:30 <KenjiE20> that would be the obvious one 16:26:41 <V453000> http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/images/1/10/SPLITS_06_flipflop.png 16:26:56 <V453000> http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2010/03/25/advanced-building-revue-02-splits/ original page 16:28:31 *** tparker [~tparker@2600:3c03::1d:4242] has joined #openttd 16:29:58 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: for sure we should have people who have had that class ... 16:30:12 <planetmaker> yeah, we should 16:31:56 <KenjiE20> but did they also pass Advanced Effort 101? :p 16:32:42 <TrueBrain> guess I should spend some time moving django to his new place ... I think he will like that a lot 16:33:48 <Terkhen> :P 16:38:01 <planetmaker> :-) 16:39:12 <planetmaker> Rubidium: could you please push OpenGFX to the mirrors? 16:39:36 <TrueBrain> add a redstone torch next to the piston; should work 16:45:31 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 16:51:38 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 16:54:14 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fedba.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 16:55:01 <appe> flipflop? 16:57:13 <glx> TrueBrain: sticky or not ? 16:57:26 <TrueBrain> I am out of slimes, so .. 17:14:28 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host86-156-235-224.range86-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 17:14:53 <LordAro> evening 17:16:54 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 17:16:56 <LordAro> anyone else think that monoid has potential as a future developer? 17:18:06 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 17:18:09 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 17:18:17 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-045-030.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 17:18:20 <LordAro> what perfect timing :) 17:18:23 <LordAro> hai Alberth 17:18:29 <LordAro> (i logged in 4 mins ago) 17:19:03 <Alberth> hi LordAro 17:19:37 <LordAro> you see monoid's comments on readme patch? 17:19:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: you don't get to be brightest star on the night sky for no reason... 17:20:04 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 17:20:13 <Alberth> not yet 17:20:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: although it's probably more difficult to see the further north you are 17:21:06 <LordAro> Alberth: i implemented his suggestions, then i got planetmaker's bug :) 17:21:45 <Alberth> give me a minute to read :) 17:22:16 <planetmaker> I haven't really read the patch or what may cause it. But it's persistent, the last lines are always truncated. And it seems to me they're just not displayed. 17:22:31 <planetmaker> i.e. the scrolling is stopped to early in a false assumption on the length 17:22:47 <planetmaker> of the _displayed_ pixel heigth. I might be totally wrong, though 17:23:02 <planetmaker> but the lowest line just shows the upper two pixels of a text line 17:23:19 <LordAro> yeah, i changed the scrollbar length 'setting' to monoid's suggestion, and got your bug. never saw it before though 17:23:36 <LordAro> (while on standard font, original_winodws gfx) 17:24:28 <planetmaker> LordAro: I got that bug prior to him commenting 17:25:04 <LordAro> yeah, which made me think that it could potentially be an os problem 17:25:32 <planetmaker> I doubt 17:25:35 <LordAro> (me linux, you osx) 17:25:55 <planetmaker> all this drawing-stuff is abstracted away from any OS call 17:25:57 <Alberth> hi planetmaker 17:26:02 <planetmaker> hello Alberth 17:26:16 <LordAro> planetmaker: yeah, but i wasn't seeing the problem, so i was busy overthiinking things 17:27:45 <Alberth> I'd be surprised if osx and linux are different, yet every other window works 17:27:56 <planetmaker> yeah 17:28:27 <LordAro> well, unless there's someproblem to do with ogfx/original_windows, i don't know 17:29:06 <Alberth> did you try with the originally posted version too (assuming that version was used by pm) 17:29:27 * LordAro nods 17:29:38 <Alberth> hmm, weird 17:29:39 <planetmaker> I think I have the original one 17:30:12 <LordAro> i hadn't changed anyting since i uploaded it 17:30:55 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22949 /trunk/src/lang/welsh.txt: -Fix [FS#4784]: Locale categories LC_NUMERIC and LC_MONETARY of cy_GB are identical to en_GB. 17:32:40 <Alberth> bleh, it rebuilds everything 17:32:50 <LordAro> afriad so :) 17:33:12 <planetmaker> not quite 100%... 70% or so 17:33:40 <LordAro> but then, so does every 'update from web translator' 17:34:58 * LordAro remembers to upload new patch to fs 17:35:25 <Rubidium> what does an update from WT? 17:35:50 <LordAro> 'rebuilds everything' 17:36:03 <Rubidium> it never does 17:37:07 <Rubidium> the only language that would trigger lots of rebuilding is english.txt, which isn't managed by the WT 17:37:16 <LordAro> rebuilds as in i have to recompile completely 17:37:28 <LordAro> really? 17:37:29 <Rubidium> what the WT commits just requires rebuilding the language files and it's done 17:37:34 <LordAro> hmm 17:38:12 <Rubidium> even then, only changes to english.txt that change the string names (add/remove/modify) trigger rebuilding (of everything that includes tables/strings.h) 17:38:22 <Rubidium> so it doesn't even trigger a full rebuild at all 17:38:34 <Rubidium> many files are very rarely recompiled 17:39:35 <LordAro> clever makefile :) 17:45:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22950 /trunk/src/lang/ (latvian.txt russian.txt welsh.txt): 17:45:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: latvian - 119 changes by Parastais 17:45:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: russian - 19 changes by akasoft, perk11 17:45:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: welsh - 2 changes by kazzie 17:50:06 <Alberth> LordAro: confirmed the bug 17:50:25 <LordAro> which bug? :_ 17:50:32 <LordAro> * :) 17:51:47 <Alberth> I can mostly read readme files :p 17:52:09 <LordAro> hmm. works for me :L 17:52:44 <Alberth> is the window supposed to be a whole number of lines exactly? 17:52:58 <LordAro> i guess so 17:55:14 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 17:55:46 <Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/whole_number_of_lines.png <-- it's not, notice the white line that sticks up from the line below pointing to "e" in "lets" at the last line 17:55:59 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-9-226-201.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:56:18 <LordAro> hmm. 17:56:33 * LordAro goes back to linux pc 17:56:50 <LordAro> thanks for that, although i sort of was aware of it :) 17:57:08 *** LordAro is now known as Aro|afk 17:58:24 *** Aro|afk is now known as LAro|afk 17:58:27 <LAro|afk> thats better :) 17:59:11 <Terkhen> see you tomorrow 18:00:20 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 18:00:39 <planetmaker> enjoy, Terkhen 18:01:11 <Alberth> LAro|afk: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/docs/readme.ptxt <-- it looks like you are missing about 1/2 a line 18:02:31 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:06:47 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-78-146-185-183.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:08:41 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFD1BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:11:20 *** TheMask96 [martijn@greed.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:12:08 <fjb> Moin 18:16:42 <peter1138> hmm, netbook + linux not so good 18:16:57 <peter1138> temp sensor thinks it's 26.8°C all the time 18:17:03 <peter1138> hence is doesn't power on the fan 18:17:07 <peter1138> *it 18:17:13 <peter1138> hence it'll probably cook itself before long :S 18:17:21 <TWerkhoven> only sensor available? 18:17:49 <peter1138> normally these things are automatically controlled by the bios anyway :S 18:18:20 <peter1138> "Aspire One by default commonly doesn't manage Fan speed correctly, resulting in a very noisy AA0. Solution: 18:18:23 <peter1138> yeah 18:18:31 <peter1138> except it's not on at all! 18:18:34 *** TheMask96 [martijn@greed.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 18:18:39 <TWerkhoven> at least its quiet 18:19:05 <peter1138> yers 18:22:26 <fjb> use it only in winter. 18:23:34 <Rubidium> peter1138: it's better than a fan/temp combination that speed up the lower the temperature gets (and subsequently slow down when it gets hotter) 18:30:26 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-9-226-201.as43234.net] has joined #openttd 18:44:23 *** ProgVal [ProgVal@mrtiserv.openihs.org] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6-dev] 18:46:37 <peter1138> hmm, coretemp says 40°C 18:48:48 *** JVassie [~James@2.25.210.146] has joined #openttd 18:50:41 <frosch123> teatemp says about 100°C 18:51:12 <planetmaker> that much? :-) 18:51:56 <frosch123> dropping 18:52:31 <frosch123> ok, it was still water when measuring :) 18:52:37 <planetmaker> :-D 18:52:46 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it meant 100°F 18:53:34 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: why should one use a scale with only one useful reference point? 18:53:47 <frosch123> you need at least two reference points for a linear scale 18:54:21 <Eddi|zuHause> that, or the first derivate at the reference point 18:54:49 <frosch123> it does not matter in which point you take the derivate :p 18:55:39 <Eddi|zuHause> but then you'd have a second reference point -> contradiction 18:59:28 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop_] 19:07:19 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.233.237.150] has joined #openttd 19:08:40 <Wolf01> hello 19:09:33 *** ProfFrink [~proffrink@027af076.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 19:12:58 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 19:14:56 <peter1138> hmm, openttd on FF gets it to 60°C 19:15:02 <peter1138> so not bad really 19:15:19 <peter1138> think the fan is on but very slow 19:15:40 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@027af850.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:15:40 *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink 19:18:46 *** KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-255-189.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 19:18:53 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.180.19] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:19:23 <peter1138> ok 19:19:36 <peter1138> "Excitement! Run for your life" is nirvana 19:24:52 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6BAC6.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 19:27:39 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:35:38 *** DDR [~DDR@d142-179-78-88.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 19:49:37 *** fjb is now known as Guest11195 19:49:38 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFDB1B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 19:53:42 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:53:50 *** TW [~turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:54:22 *** TW is now known as TWerkhoven[l] 19:56:50 *** Guest11195 [~frank@p5DDFD1BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:58:55 *** makjes [d4fbafd3@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 20:02:08 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-78-146-185-183.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 20:04:29 *** LAro|afk is now known as LordAro 20:07:23 <Hinrik> I have an airport whose catchment area includes houses from towns A and B. According to the station name, the airport is in town. Will an advertising campaign in town B have any effect on the amount of cargo I get at the airport? 20:07:34 <Hinrik> is in town A* 20:09:01 <TWerkhoven[l]> as long as the town-B houses within the catchment area produce at least a full (8/8) passenger, i'd think so 20:11:16 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fedba.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:14:30 <Rubidium> advertising campaigns only have effect with X tiles from the city center 20:14:43 <Rubidium> (X can be found in the wiki) 20:19:25 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:27:51 *** geheimdienst [~hk@p4FC947AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 20:28:34 <Hirundo> There is no such thing as full (8/8) or partial production, only acceptance is counted as n/8 20:29:26 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 20:40:17 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host86-156-235-224.range86-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:42:11 *** michi_cc [~michi@dude.icosahedron.de] has quit [Quit: michi_cc] 20:42:40 *** michi_cc [~michi@dude.icosahedron.de] has joined #openttd 20:42:44 *** mode/#openttd [+v michi_cc] by ChanServ 20:45:37 *** michi_cc [~michi@dude.icosahedron.de] has quit [] 20:46:06 *** michi_cc [~michi@dude.icosahedron.de] has joined #openttd 20:46:09 *** mode/#openttd [+v michi_cc] by ChanServ 21:24:31 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #openttd 21:32:21 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-78-146-185-183.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:38:01 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:38:06 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-180-205.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:42:31 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B11D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:42:49 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 21:50:54 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1D7EC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 21:58:00 <Elukka> perhaps a long shot, but nobody would happen to have compiled a recent cargodist windows binary, would they? 21:58:24 <Elukka> i have openttd withdrawal symptoms 21:58:38 <pjpe> do it yourself 21:58:44 <pjpe> ain't THAT hard 21:59:21 <Elukka> seems like it is 22:02:48 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1D7EC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:03:08 <Eddi|zuHause> it's really not 22:03:48 <Eddi|zuHause> and when you did it once, the next time is really trivial 22:04:19 <Elukka> it's probably easier if you have any programming experience at all 22:04:57 <Eddi|zuHause> not really 22:05:27 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-178-004-188-067.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 22:07:08 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 22:10:02 *** JVassie [~James@2.25.210.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:13:51 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:20:11 <SpComb> it's fine if it all goes well 22:20:17 <SpComb> but if you have to debug something.. 22:21:09 <Eddi|zuHause> which should not be necessary if you stick to applying the patch to the same revision it was written for 22:21:24 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-9-226-201.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:26:07 <Elukka> well, it seems like a bit more effort to go through than i'm willing to essentially install a mod to a game 22:29:01 *** z-MaTRiX [~matrix@index.linuxsecured.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:29:49 *** roboboy [3aad2b37@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 22:32:08 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-81-33.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 22:43:43 *** Elukka [~Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 22:46:38 <Wolf01> 'night 22:46:43 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.233.237.150] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 22:49:01 *** makjes [d4fbafd3@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 22:55:04 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:58:42 <__ln__> "In ThÃŒringen sind zwei GÃŒterzÃŒge zusammengeprallt - dabei soll mindestens ein mit Benzin gefÃŒllter Kesselwagen explodiert sein." 22:59:01 <Terkhen> hi 22:59:08 <__ln__> hi 23:00:31 <Eddi|zuHause> you get real time news about train accidents or something? 23:00:52 *** z-MaTRiX [~matrix@index.linuxsecured.net] has joined #openttd 23:01:44 <__ln__> ummm.. sort of, from #elsewhere where someone apparently monitors news sources 23:04:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i used to travel on that route quite frequently a few years ago 23:04:49 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db1ab24.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] 23:05:01 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not a major passenger route, but pretty high cargo route 23:07:06 <Eddi|zuHause> there are two major east-west routes in thÃŒringen, the so called "ThÃŒringer Bahn" from Halle/Leipzig via Weimar, Erfurt, Eisenach to Bebra (further to Fulda and Frankfurt (M)) connecting most of the major cities is mostly used for passenger traffic 23:07:34 <Eddi|zuHause> and the "Halle-Kasseler Eisenbahn", which connects fewer large cities is mostly free for freight traffic 23:07:55 <Eddi|zuHause> the accident happened on the latter 23:08:28 *** DDR [~DDR@d142-179-78-88.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:09:35 <__ln__> ok 23:11:27 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 23:30:20 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [] 23:36:08 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFDB1B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:42:58 *** MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd 23:50:54 *** KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-255-189.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:57:29 *** Markavian` [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has joined #openttd 23:57:55 *** Markavian [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]