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00:00:39 *** DDR [~DDR@d142-179-78-88.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 00:13:22 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-107-13.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 00:19:17 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-35-179.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:58:49 <Terkhen> good night 01:26:09 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-045-030.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 01:43:19 *** geheimdienst [~hk@p4FC947AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:14:13 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 02:26:39 *** rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-188-109-248-075.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 02:31:12 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-188-100-217-211.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:39:00 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:6d76:e618:e16e:1c48] has quit [Quit: bye] 03:23:02 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b29.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:24:30 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b29.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 04:40:55 *** TheMask96 [martijn@greed.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:44:35 *** TheMask96 [martijn@sirius.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 04:56:01 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B738D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:56:17 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73CA3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:11:15 *** JVassie [~James@2.25.210.146] has joined #openttd 05:12:25 *** JVassie [~James@2.25.210.146] has quit [] 05:51:55 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 06:05:35 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 06:05:54 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 06:12:57 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@027af076.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:28:00 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-045-030.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 06:30:29 <Terkhen> good morning 06:33:27 <planetmaker> moin 06:47:46 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 06:51:10 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice1n2.emea.ibm.com] has joined #openttd 06:51:13 <norbert79> Morning 07:02:04 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-178-004-187-053.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 07:04:59 <appe> good morning 07:05:04 <norbert79> Morning appe 07:10:16 *** roboboy [3aad2b37@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 07:10:29 *** roboboy [3aad2b37@ircip3.mibbit.com] has left #openttd [] 07:17:33 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1AA37.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 07:39:04 *** Markavian [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has joined #openttd 07:43:50 *** Markavian` [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:43:54 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-81-33.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 07:49:31 <dihedral> good morning 07:50:44 <norbert79> morning dihidrogene-monoxide :) 07:51:11 <dihedral> i am not sure i consider that a compliment :-P 07:51:27 <norbert79> Well, water is cool. Without water there is no life. 07:51:37 <norbert79> nor openttd 07:52:06 <dihedral> but the name only suits a human to 90% :-P 07:52:14 <dihedral> i am so much more 07:52:26 <norbert79> but it keeps thing flowing :) 07:52:29 <norbert79> things 07:53:29 *** DDR [~DDR@d142-179-78-88.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: In democracy it's your vote that counts; In feudalism it's your count that votes. - Mogens Jallberg] 07:54:10 <dihedral> i feel so cheap 07:54:39 <norbert79> ...oook, I guess referring to the huge ammount of water in the ocean won't help here either... 07:55:01 <norbert79> Damn, I wanted to make a more intelligent line, and still failed. :) 07:55:45 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 07:57:17 <appe> 21:52 < norbert79> Well, water is cool. Without water there is no life. 07:57:18 <appe> 21:53 < norbert79> nor openttd 07:57:35 <appe> and so, norbert took his ten two commandments and led the jews to freedom. 07:57:45 <appe> -ten 07:57:55 <norbert79> lol 07:57:57 <appe> "ten two" 07:58:02 <appe> :,( 07:58:07 <norbert79> Sounds like a police-code 07:58:10 <norbert79> :) 07:58:14 <norbert79> 10-4! 07:58:35 <norbert79> appe: 9:53pm over there? Australia? 07:58:50 <appe> wrong side ;). 07:58:53 <appe> sweden 07:59:02 <norbert79> Impossible :S 07:59:13 <norbert79> Your clock is set wrong then :) 07:59:15 <appe> oh jebus 07:59:18 <appe> it's 12 hours wrong 07:59:21 <appe> im in australia! 07:59:27 <appe> for some reason 07:59:42 <norbert79> you mixed up the am/pm possibly 07:59:52 <appe> not my server 08:00:11 <appe> this is what happens when you ssh trough server, trough server, trough server. 08:00:28 <norbert79> yeah, you time-travle 08:00:30 <norbert79> travel 08:00:38 <appe> my shell is a delorean 08:00:43 <appe> with a 1,21 gigawatt psu 08:00:47 <peter1138> trough? 08:00:57 <norbert79> through he meant 08:01:33 <appe> :< 08:01:44 <norbert79> appe: Cool, get me some laced shoes when you will come back, it will be much cheaper in the future for sure :) 08:01:58 <dihedral> appe, that should be enough to run at least irssi 08:02:01 <norbert79> but you could also say hi to Mr. Spock when going a bit further 08:03:31 *** Markavian` [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has joined #openttd 08:03:37 <norbert79> I wonder if the doc ever considered the fact entering into a wall with the DeLorean while time-travel, since there was no guarantee, that there won't be a building, when traveling through time at the same spot. 08:04:54 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:06:20 <appe> well, when he travel back in time, that's (relatively) easy to control. 08:06:25 <appe> dihedral: i guess. 08:06:33 <norbert79> Sliders was cool, it was the first tv-series, which was closer to current theories about time, and it was also a good demonstration of the relative theory of Einstein. (They travelled through the same few hours/days all over and over again, but in different dimensions, yet they aged) 08:06:54 <norbert79> relativitiy 08:06:58 <norbert79> eh 08:07:10 <norbert79> typo everything! :) 08:07:20 <appe> relativitly? 08:07:29 <norbert79> relativity theory 08:07:41 <norbert79> told ya, typo-day 08:07:47 <appe> am i using the word correctly up there? 08:07:58 <appe> i really need to work on my english spelling, and grammar 08:08:00 <norbert79> guess so... 08:08:03 <appe> after all these years. 08:08:03 <appe> .. 08:08:18 <appe> im swedish, im supposed to speak better english then english peopel. 08:08:23 <appe> people*. 08:08:30 <appe> typo tuesday 08:08:39 <norbert79> Thursday that is 08:09:26 <norbert79> I am Hungarian, and speaking German and English, yet even I have issues, and when I get in shape with German, my English starts fading, and then it goes all around, I start working on English, then my German suffers... :) 08:09:52 *** Markavian [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:09:56 <appe> wait what, it's thursday? 08:09:59 <norbert79> Indeed 08:10:23 <appe> i really need to stop working like this 08:10:30 <norbert79> 22nd of September, 2011, Thursday 08:11:13 <Hirundo> Eddi|zuHause: What's so scary about bridge action0s? 08:13:03 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 08:17:41 <planetmaker> bridges are not fully NewGRF-implemented yet 08:18:07 <planetmaker> but adding an action0 'max_height' should still be no issue 08:28:44 *** Elukka [~Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 08:31:26 <appe> i think i missed out badly on this grf thing 08:31:54 <appe> i actually thought all usable grf were housed in the online content menu. 08:34:54 <Elukka> if only 08:36:20 <planetmaker> 90% are 08:36:42 <planetmaker> and the remaining 10% is not their due to stubborn authors 08:37:48 <appe> i see 08:38:39 *** Markavian [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has joined #openttd 08:42:56 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has left #openttd [] 08:44:51 *** Markavian` [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:48:56 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-89-242-71-127.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 09:23:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: people will want action 1/2/3 support and stuff, it's something a heightlevel patch should not bother with... 09:25:21 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice1n2.emea.ibm.com] has left #openttd [Exit stage left...] 09:25:26 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice1n2.emea.ibm.com] has joined #openttd 09:25:30 <norbert79> I need a bit more sleep 09:26:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i managed to get a 1.7 in my AI exam! 09:26:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really know how... 09:26:51 <norbert79> AI exam? Well, congratulations! 09:27:07 <norbert79> 1.7 is a well done note 09:27:32 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-045-030.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:27:38 <__ln__> is the scale 1..5, 1 is best? 09:27:46 <norbert79> In the German one, yes 09:27:49 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 09:27:51 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-040-223.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 09:27:58 <norbert79> In Hungary it's just the opposite 09:28:07 <__ln__> here as well 09:28:17 <Eddi|zuHause> actually it's 1..4 and failed 09:28:23 <__ln__> 1..5, 5 is best. (well, technically 0..5, 0 is fail) 09:28:43 <norbert79> we have no 0... It's full enough being blamed by a 1 :) 09:29:04 <norbert79> for... 09:29:25 <norbert79> Which school you are attending Eddi|zuHause ? 09:29:29 <__ln__> failures are not usually expressed as 0, no 09:29:50 <Eddi|zuHause> the Martin Luther university of halle-wittenberg 09:30:14 <norbert79> Oh, nice, yet coming from the name I wouldn't have expected technical related topics :) 09:31:56 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: "Zentrum fÃŒr Ingenieurwissenschaften", am I right? 09:32:02 <b_jonas> failures are written as 1 but are either counted as 0 in formulas or is handled specially 09:32:05 <Eddi|zuHause> not really 09:32:08 <b_jonas> or is treated as -infty 09:32:13 <b_jonas> depends on the application 09:32:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i am studying computer science 09:32:20 <__ln__> strange that a modern day university can be named after such a person 09:32:35 <b_jonas> __ln__: why? it's all politics 09:32:39 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Just browsing through the Uni webpage. __ln__ : Why? 09:32:50 <Eddi|zuHause> the university is over 500 years old 09:33:22 <Eddi|zuHause> and martin luther is a very famous and influential person around here... 09:33:23 <__ln__> because Luther has written a book called "On the Jews and Their Lies". (i haven't read it, dunno if it's any good) 09:33:31 <norbert79> And it's not the old DDR era, where all the universities and colleges had to be renamed... 09:33:39 <norbert79> __ln__: So? 09:34:23 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: that's not really what he is famous for. but admittedly that has been abused in nazi times 09:34:51 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: but so has wagner 09:34:56 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: No wonder really. 09:35:03 <Eddi|zuHause> and they're still playing wagner nowadays 09:35:21 <norbert79> Except for some German tunes, like the Horst-Wessel Lied 09:35:47 <norbert79> But we have also some portions of culture, which get or got abused often :( 09:36:00 <Eddi|zuHause> except the israelis, they have some kind of trouble admitting publicly that wagner made good music 09:36:12 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Politics... :) 09:36:47 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a huge outcry recently where an israelian orchestra wanted to perform on the wagner-festspiele in bayreuth 09:37:00 <norbert79> __ln__: Hard, and touchy topics are such, and despite for many cases, where things are either black or white, still the world isn't 09:37:15 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Damn it, it's just music for Pete's sake 09:37:24 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: I will never understand such people 09:37:37 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: There is no text, just classical music... 09:38:07 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: It's not like some black goth flick with texts about death and such... 09:38:30 <norbert79> Wagner is Wagner, period. 09:39:11 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: anyway, it would be really silly to reject luther's influence on germany by reducing him to that one book. 09:40:09 <norbert79> __ln__: Just think about it, views of one can change. Even to worse or better, or just different. Why to reject someone because he had a view of something at one period of a time? Shouldn't be the actions of one being judged by? 09:41:39 <norbert79> Despite if I am thinking on good things, like flowers, but keep stepping on your toe, and not saying sorry it still makes me a moron... :) 09:42:07 <MNIM> Eddi: quite probably because wagner supported nazism, was anti-zionistic and a huge promoter of Aryanism. 09:42:33 <MNIM> you can imagine most Israeli don't really like him for that 09:42:36 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: even bad people write good music 09:42:45 <MNIM> true. 09:42:54 <MNIM> hitler made pretty decent paintings. 09:43:06 <Eddi|zuHause> charlie sheen makes funny comedy. 09:43:08 <MNIM> don't see 'em exhibited anywhere, though 09:43:17 <MNIM> eddi: now /that/ is debatable 09:43:21 <norbert79> MNIM: Despite nazism didn't start in the 30's I doubt this might be true in it's current form. Think about it, Martin Luther was born in 1483! WAY before any nazism present... 09:43:26 <Eddi|zuHause> but really he's a terrible person 09:43:53 <MNIM> norbert79... don't really see where luther came in the story? 09:44:06 <norbert79> MNIM: Where, the whole conversation started from it :) 09:44:13 <Eddi|zuHause> 1483 was even before the concept of "nationality" came around 09:44:14 <norbert79> MNIM: Scroll back 09:44:33 <Eddi|zuHause> really napoleon laid the foundation of nationalism in germany. 09:44:41 <Eddi|zuHause> it quite bite him in the arse afterwards 09:44:43 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Well, sorta 09:44:57 <MNIM> ahah 09:45:02 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: The real thing started much later, in it's that form 09:45:09 <MNIM> true. gotta love versailles, don't we. 09:45:11 <peter1138> hmm, i wonder what i did with my ambisonics patch 09:45:34 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: stop the on-topic talk! 09:45:38 <norbert79> lol 09:45:44 <norbert79> peter1138: DUCK! :) 09:46:07 <peter1138> quack? 09:46:20 <norbert79> no, I mean duck, the movement :) 09:46:31 <peter1138> i did it based on screen position 09:47:04 <Elukka> it's amazing how long many universities have been around 09:47:12 <norbert79> Yeah 09:47:13 <peter1138> so there's no vertical position 09:47:39 <Elukka> and they tend to have had continually occupied and maintained buildings through all that time 09:47:40 <norbert79> peter1138: Bah, you should use your imagination more often :) 09:47:45 <Elukka> medieval buildings that aren't ruins are a cool thing 09:48:04 <MNIM> medieval buildings that are ruins still can be a cool thing >.> 09:48:09 <norbert79> and afdter each war, we kept them rebuilding 09:48:23 <norbert79> well, not all of course 09:48:31 <peter1138> i assumed the viewpoint is in the sky 09:48:32 <Eddi|zuHause> not really that many medieval buildings around in the university 09:48:37 <peter1138> therefore everything is below you 09:48:39 <peter1138> so... no point 09:49:11 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: what if the creep sneaks up on you from behind? 09:49:21 <peter1138> this is not minecraft :( 09:49:22 <Eddi|zuHause> err... :p 09:49:43 <peter1138> hmm, minecraft with special audio. actually it already is, i think. 09:49:52 <peter1138> er 09:49:53 <peter1138> spatial 09:49:58 <peter1138> :S 09:50:39 *** roboboy [3aad2b37@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 09:51:55 <Elukka> MNIM: yes, but surely intact buildings are even better :P 09:52:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: the university buildings are more 1700-ish, so not really medieval 09:52:38 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 09:52:41 <Eddi|zuHause> other buildings are more modern 09:53:08 <MNIM> elukka: true, but sadly, some of the most awesome buildings don't come in that variety any more 09:53:40 <Elukka> true 09:53:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the building where the computer science department is located is a 1920/30's barracks building 09:54:02 <Elukka> i think there's still late medieval buildings at some universities 09:54:11 <Eddi|zuHause> originally used by a german air division, later by the russian occupation 09:54:17 <Elukka> guild halls are another type of building that's often preserved 09:54:49 <Eddi|zuHause> structurally renewed after the russians left in the 1990's 09:54:57 <Elukka> "Mob Quad, in Merton College, Oxford. This group of buildings was constructed in three phases and concluded in c. 1315" 09:54:58 <Elukka> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/45/Mob_Quad_from_Chapel_Tower.jpg 09:55:34 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a funny story: the walls in the building are so thick that no sane WLAN could be set up 09:55:45 <MNIM> they look awesome, but it must be hell to work with a laptop there 09:55:47 <Eddi|zuHause> then they switched to frequencies that are reserved for military use 09:55:49 <MNIM> *ninja'd* 09:56:06 <MNIM> anyway, that's not *too* special 09:56:13 <MNIM> I mean, no sane wlan in my house either 09:56:18 <Elukka> haha 09:56:19 <Eddi|zuHause> and since then they worry that the americans could detect the use of these frequencies, and their maps showing that it's in a russian barracks territory 09:56:37 <MNIM> and that's a 70/80s house, not a medieval one 09:57:02 <Elukka> my wlan suprisingly works a fair distance outside 09:57:37 <MNIM> oh, ours does too, as long as a clear line of sight is maintained 09:57:55 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the usual distance? 300m-ish? 09:57:56 <MNIM> but as soon as you need to cross a wall, or worse, a ceiling *boom* no network 09:58:25 <MNIM> there's a school network some 200m away that I can get at better quality than mine 09:58:43 <MNIM> and that network is hidden behind a retirement home! 09:58:44 <Elukka> mine's your average cheap wlan router that sits on the third floor 09:58:49 <Elukka> works... 50ish meters outside 09:59:46 <MNIM> ours sits on the first floor in the meter cupboard 10:00:30 <MNIM> right next to a solid brick staircase with walls 30cm thick, below a strengthened concrete ceiling 10:01:40 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: if you got 1.7, what's the resolution of that scale? 10:01:56 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: .0, .3 and .7 10:02:16 <__ln__> sounds... imperial 10:02:30 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-9-226-201.as43234.net] has joined #openttd 10:02:40 <Eddi|zuHause> it's N, N+0.3 or N-0.3 10:02:51 <Eddi|zuHause> so in this case 2-0.3 10:03:28 <Eddi|zuHause> where 1-0.3 or 4+0.3 are illegal values 10:04:38 <__ln__> our scale is {1,2,3,4,5}, nothing else 10:05:13 *** roboboy [3aad2b37@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 10:05:18 <__ln__> earlier we had {1,1+,1Âœ,2-,2,2+,2Âœ,3-,3} 10:06:01 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-5d820530.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 10:36:08 <appe> bah, always the exciting chemistry talk that turned out to be programing 11:13:35 *** MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:39:25 *** theos [Theos@ool-4576c1d9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:29:00 <Eddi|zuHause> where did you read chemistry?!? 12:31:12 <appe> a quick look at "< Eddi|zuHause> it's N, N+0.3 or N-0.3" though we were discussin nitrogen eletron configuration. 12:31:45 <Eddi|zuHause> did you know that freudian slips work for reading as well? :) 12:37:21 <appe> of course :) 12:39:36 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:1c12:6b26:e96b:d6ec] has joined #openttd 12:39:39 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:39:53 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 12:41:44 <appe> ill take electron configuration over ..imperial illegal scale resolution values..? 12:41:47 <appe> :D 12:49:43 <__ln__> appe: since when are course grades "programming"? 12:53:44 <Eddi|zuHause> when the course is "introduction to artificial intelligence"? 12:54:19 <__ln__> i've taken that course too 12:54:23 <Eddi|zuHause> although there was quite little programming involved. but programming in prolog drove some people seriously crazy :p 12:54:24 <norbert79> had something similar... Wasn't really exciting, since based on outdated information 12:54:28 <__ln__> did you have the green book? 12:54:47 <Eddi|zuHause> we did not have any green book 12:54:55 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't that written by gaddafi? 12:55:00 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: The same method is still used over there too? Christ, I thought... LOL 12:55:06 <norbert79> Khadafi... lol 12:55:29 <Terkhen> just the mention of prolog gives me a headache 12:55:33 <norbert79> Rather the green book, than the green mile 12:56:00 <Eddi|zuHause> hey, prolog is funny :) 12:56:10 <Eddi|zuHause> or rather "fun" 12:56:14 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 12:56:43 <Eddi|zuHause> actually it's both, because the interpreter had some hitchhiker references :) 12:57:00 <norbert79> and Ubuntu has a Prolog compiler listed in the repos... 12:57:04 <norbert79> ew 12:57:05 <appe> __ln__: since the time i didnt know what on earth course grades are ;). 12:58:35 <Terkhen> prolog is completely alien to my way of thinking :P 12:58:43 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 13:03:03 <Eddi|zuHause> actually you can easily make an almost-imperative program in prolog ;) 13:03:40 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 13:03:49 <planetmaker> almost 13:04:11 <planetmaker> but you need to jump over many bear traps and through many rings 13:05:23 <Terkhen> and huge headaches :P 13:05:48 <planetmaker> but it was well-suited for writing a selection programme for the choice of courses, room-assignment etc in secondary school :-P 13:06:59 <norbert79> I think Prolog just hurts real programming skills. It's typical French: differs from everything. 13:08:07 <planetmaker> that in itself is hardly hurtful 13:08:50 <norbert79> Well, it's like teaching BASIC in 2011. It helps at least giving some idea about programing, but doubt it would be something useful to learn. 13:09:13 <Eddi|zuHause> "BT's copper cables have a material value of 50 billion pounds, on the stock market, BT has a value of 20 billion pounds. so the "service" of BT is worth -30 billion pounds" 13:09:36 <planetmaker> :-D 13:09:54 <SpComb> 'cept how much ripping those up would cost, mh 13:10:03 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: sometimes learning a language like prolog or haskell can completely change your view about coding in "normal" languages 13:10:18 * SpComb wonders if residual value of copper > value of new fibre 13:10:33 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Right, but this is also a bit risky, since it can lead you to some completly false track, or improve your skills. 13:10:46 <orudge> SpComb: rip them all up and profit! 13:10:54 <orudge> (rip them up and replace them with fibre, that is) 13:11:46 <Pinkbeast> ... what if you account for fibre being less likely to be nicked by the chavousie? 13:12:07 <orudge> Pinkbeast: alas, they're stupid enough not to realise that fibre isn't copper, or so it seems 13:12:20 <orudge> at least in the UK, there are often reports of fibre cable breaks due to people trying to nick it 13:12:34 <orudge> without realising that it's basically worthless 13:12:37 <Pinkbeast> But the more fibre you install, the less true that will be. 13:12:49 <orudge> if you go about educating the thieves, maybe ;) 13:12:51 <norbert79> orudge: So does it happen in Hungary too. Last time some main line was cut by some morons, total loss of Internet around one area of Hungary. 13:13:18 <Pinkbeast> Even without education - in the extreme case where, say, there is _never_ copper to be found, even chavs will figure it out 13:13:37 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: that's a case of bad topology 13:14:59 <Elukka> i remember an ICE-3 crashed with a freight train in the netherlands a while back due to thieves snagging some copper from the track circuit, then rewiring it so that everything looks like it works 13:15:07 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Those, who look for copper can be very ingenious finding the weak points, and then realizing no gain 13:15:10 <Elukka> luckily at low speed 13:16:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: aren't there supposed to be axle counters for this? 13:16:21 <norbert79> Elukka: In Hungary some copper-thieves rewired some power circuits, but then after a failure in the system the electician company eON also did some repairs, so they switched everything back, causing an overload in the systems. A block of flats lost their electrical gadgets 13:16:38 <Elukka> eddi, don't know about the details 13:16:40 <Elukka> trains crashed anyhow 13:17:16 <Elukka> it makes me wonder how easy that sort of thing would be to sabotage for most damage, were someone so inclined 13:17:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: that's a case of security-relevant infrastructure not being redundant enough 13:17:32 <Elukka> why hijack a plane if you can just make trains crash on their own 13:17:39 <norbert79> Elukka: it wasn't by the mistake of eON, actually it turned out, that the theives put the system to a different circuit causing the overload peak. 13:17:58 <norbert79> Elukka: Well, think on Spain 2005. Wasn't pleasent... 13:18:24 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Securing a system in the wide-open is much more difficult, than in-doors 13:18:43 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Especially when we talk about copper-thieves 13:18:54 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: afaik the DB has regular problems with such 13:19:01 <norbert79> as well 13:19:13 <SpComb> one of these days something it going to cause the cell phone networks to break (a proper CME event?) and then people will realize why we once had landlines 13:19:42 <norbert79> SpComb: According to EU law there is a minimum requirement of land-phones to be present in every town. 13:19:48 <orudge> SpComb: landlines are for ADSL, clearly! 13:19:49 <norbert79> SpComb: If I can recall well 13:19:50 <Eddi|zuHause> copper theft occures fairly regularly, i suppose 13:20:48 <Elukka> CMEs can very well hurt the electric grid as a whole too 13:20:52 <norbert79> Well, yet there are already land-lines present, which are based on the recent VoIP techniques too. I wonder how reliable those would be in case of a catastrophic event. 13:20:53 <Elukka> landlines could die too 13:21:31 <Elukka> "Telegraph systems all over Europe and North America failed, in some cases even shocking telegraph operators.[6] Telegraph pylons threw sparks and telegraph paper spontaneously caught fire.[7] Some telegraph systems appeared to continue to send and receive messages despite having been disconnected from their power supplies.[8]" 13:21:33 <Elukka> CME in 1859 13:21:37 <norbert79> back to old-school: Turn-phones :) 13:21:41 <SpComb> or someone breaks 3G chipers or whatever 13:21:47 <Belugas> hello 13:21:51 <norbert79> hey Belugas 13:22:06 <Belugas> hi norbert79 13:22:17 * SpComb doesn't know where he'd find a landline 13:22:33 <Elukka> our power grids are another thing that seem to me like they're not nearly redundant enough 13:22:50 <Elukka> *zzzap* 13:22:54 <Elukka> *civilization halts for a week* 13:23:10 <norbert79> would be interesting to see... 13:23:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the german power grid is said to be seriously underdeveloped 13:23:16 <norbert79> security would be the first problem 13:23:33 <norbert79> as soon the power is out, looting starts 13:24:08 * SpComb doesn't know what he'd do if he lost internet access for a week 13:24:10 <SpComb> don't even have a radio :) 13:24:11 <Eddi|zuHause> and with the "energy revolution" about to come, wind power is mainly generated in the north, while highest power consumption is happening in the south 13:24:33 <Elukka> not necessarily, there was a big power outage in a couple states in the US a few weeks back and i didn't hear of any looting 13:24:38 <norbert79> SpComb: Easy to try. Don't turn on your PC for a week 13:24:44 <Eddi|zuHause> aren't you like legally required to own a radio? :) 13:24:50 <Elukka> though it didn't last for a day 13:24:58 <SpComb> norbert79: phone counts 13:24:58 <norbert79> Elukka: US... That's the main point here :)) 13:25:37 <norbert79> Elukka: Imagine the same around a different place, where the police-force is much weaker 13:25:48 <SpComb> and said big power outage in south california was apparently caused by some worker doing some maintenance work wrong :) 13:26:04 <SpComb> tripping some big power line and then chain-reacting to the entire state 13:26:16 <norbert79> Lovely design :) 13:26:19 <Elukka> it's amazing it's possible for one person to brick the the power grid by mistake 13:26:31 <SpComb> or rather, one failure to cascade 13:26:36 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: nah, those are "strategic" power outages so the power companies can present a reason why they need more money 13:26:48 <SpComb> I thought those ended with enron :) 13:27:02 <norbert79> Elukka: Since outsourcing, everything can happen. Just think on the "big-thumb" term coming from the financial sector 13:27:09 <SpComb> although I've heard some really bizarre stories about californian energy utility privtization 13:27:13 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, right :p 13:27:28 <SpComb> the regulations caused it to become some kind of self-feeding loop of madness 13:27:55 <Eddi|zuHause> california, the land of neo-liberal ultra-capitalism 13:28:36 <Eddi|zuHause> where the govenment is useless enough that nobody actually cares that they have no money 13:29:02 <Elukka> :D 13:29:22 <norbert79> I doubt this is limited to CA/US only :) 13:29:35 <Eddi|zuHause> but when an unimportant-in-the-grand-scheme country like greece runs out of money over here, all hell breaks loose 13:33:52 <Elukka> i like how our economy is built so that if it's not growing fast enough , it's in crisis 13:34:17 <Elukka> you'd think it'd be in crisis when it's shrinking 13:34:30 <Elukka> but no, it's in crisis when the rate at which it is growing is slowing down 13:34:40 <Pinkbeast> ... the minor detail that endless growth in a finite space is clearly impossible seems to have escaped us 13:34:51 <Elukka> indeed 13:35:22 <Elukka> it's either growing ever faster or crashing 13:35:24 <Elukka> no stable state 13:35:38 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no stable state in nature 13:35:47 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a myth 13:35:56 <Eddi|zuHause> things are growing until they fall apart 13:36:18 <Pinkbeast> I really do find this remarkable. We know perfectly well what happens when you put two bunnies in a big field of grass; you have more and more bunnies until all the grass is eaten, and then most of the bunnies die. But let the economy grow like the bunnies and it'll all be fine. 13:36:24 <Eddi|zuHause> the question is how often that happens 13:36:35 <Elukka> usually in nature that will result in some sort of state that is stable in the long term 13:37:28 <Elukka> take that time when organisms figured out how to photosynthesize 13:37:51 <Elukka> oxygen content in the atmosphere increased catastrophically and killed most everything 13:38:24 <Elukka> but then it settled down to around 20% oxygen 13:38:32 <Elukka> it fluctuates but it's stable enough to stay around roughly that number 13:38:40 <Eddi|zuHause> high oxygen level increases chance of a catastrophic fire outbreak 13:40:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: but this fluctuation is the important part. natural systems are not clean sinus curves, like biology lessons suggest. it's growth until something triggers, and then it falls apart fast 13:42:48 <Elukka> sure, but it can keep going for a billion years or two 13:42:54 <Elukka> our market economy seems rather more precarious 13:43:08 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 13:44:36 <Pinkbeast> A billion years> er but not without constant catastrophic events. Even good old Triceratops only made it to 3 million. 13:46:20 <Elukka> yeah but the atmosphere is still breathable 13:46:25 <Elukka> and in fact dinosaurs are still flying about :P 13:46:28 <Eddi|zuHause> oxygen levels have high correlation with ice ages, so 100.000-ish years is probably a more accurate frequency 13:47:21 <Pinkbeast> The atmosphere is still breathable> if you'll accept that as meaning nothing too bad has happened, the market economy hasn't collapsed because we still use money. :-) 13:49:12 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-89-242-71-127.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:49:47 <Eddi|zuHause> my optical mouse has somehow problems with black surfaces 13:50:26 * Pinkbeast remembers the old Sun optical mice that only worked on a metal mousemat with a specific grid pattern 13:50:38 <Elukka> hmm. new railworks tomorrow 13:50:51 <Pinkbeast> Elukka> That was my thought too. 13:50:57 <Elukka> it doesn't seem to have what i so much wish it would, though... new playable content 13:51:30 <Pinkbeast> I'm really hoping they've made at least some interface improvements 13:51:44 *** roboboy [3aad2b37@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 13:52:27 <Pinkbeast> In particular, it would be really nice if user-controllable junctions were shown in the F4 track guide, to avoid the usual problem where you basically have to guess where you're expected to start controlling the points. 13:53:01 <Elukka> i'd hope there was an easier way to identify tracks too 13:53:26 <Elukka> "Go to Templecombe Upper Yard 7" 13:53:36 <Elukka> have fun counting tracks and figuring out which label is which track 13:54:11 <Elukka> do tell me if you happen to find any interesting routes/scenarios 13:54:14 <Pinkbeast> Also to see the driver and fireman's controls _at the same time_ 13:54:45 <Pinkbeast> UK train sim have quite a lot of download stuff, some of which is quite good, but they charge a once-off fee for access (not a lot IIRC 13:55:34 <Elukka> any particular ones to recommend? i remember browsing it once upon a time but didn't find much that's very finished 13:55:59 <Elukka> and sometimes i wish there was something else than UK stuff for a change, though i'll take what i can right now 13:56:08 <Pinkbeast> Hard to say, I haven't played since er about the time they announced Railworks 3 13:57:31 *** michi_cc [~michi@dude.icosahedron.de] has quit [Quit: michi_cc] 13:57:49 <Elukka> hm. 13:58:07 *** michi_cc [~michi@dude.icosahedron.de] has joined #openttd 13:58:10 *** mode/#openttd [+v michi_cc] by ChanServ 13:58:34 <Elukka> as for the official payware, i wish they'd make more complete expansion packs rather than mostly separate locomotives and stuff 13:59:30 <Pinkbeast> Complete new areas I think represent a vast amount of work... do you have a version with Newcastle-York included? 14:00:31 <Pinkbeast> I confess, I'd really like to see the North York Moors Railway in Railworks. 14:05:48 <Elukka> i do have newcastle-york 14:06:02 <Elukka> the black 5 scenario was pretty great 14:06:17 <Pinkbeast> Career Mode added a lot of scenarios, albeit with that silly scoring system. 14:06:47 <Elukka> luckily the scoring doesn't really matter 14:08:01 <Elukka> complete new routes are indeed a vast amount of work, but if they can make nearly a dozen routes for the game they can make one for an expansion pack 14:18:06 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 14:20:44 *** roboboy [3aad2b37@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 14:26:43 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-81-33.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 14:30:12 *** TrueBrain [~patric@145.118.73.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:34:46 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-178-004-187-053.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 14:44:43 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 14:45:07 *** TrueBrain [~patric@ip82-139-80-13.lijbrandt.net] has joined #openttd 14:48:19 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice1n2.emea.ibm.com] has quit [Quit: Exit stage left...] 14:48:41 *** Elu [~Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 14:48:41 *** Player [c3e46e97@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 14:48:48 <Player> hi 14:50:47 *** Elukka [~Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:50:59 *** Elu is now known as Elukka 14:51:00 <Elukka> hi 14:51:43 <Terkhen> hi Player 14:52:18 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 14:53:12 *** TrueBrain [~patric@ip82-139-80-13.lijbrandt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:59:52 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 15:01:11 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 15:06:34 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 15:07:32 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:08:19 <George> Hi 15:08:28 <George> Compatibility question 15:09:31 <George> If the GRF, that is the new version of the other GRF, and has the same ID, defines other layouts on the industry ID, what bugs may it lead to? 15:11:03 <planetmaker> Easy solution: Just keep the layout but de-activate it (and use dummy graphics, if you want to remove / change the associated graphics) 15:11:06 <George> I want to understand, should I change the GRF ID in case I replace layots for the industry, or I can leave the GRFID uncanged? 15:11:19 <planetmaker> no, just increase the min_compatible version 15:11:31 <planetmaker> or... make the layout unavailable for building 15:11:36 <planetmaker> Then it's 100% safe 15:13:10 <planetmaker> A grfID change is (for OpenTTD) not necessary anymore 15:13:17 <planetmaker> even for incompatible changes 15:13:44 <planetmaker> if via action14 the min_compatible_version is set to where it was changed 15:14:00 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 15:15:54 <planetmaker> check callback 0x28, variable 86 for the layout 15:17:00 <planetmaker> and make it easy for you to display just a plain concrete tile for each tile of that layout (no lengthy whatever :-) ) 15:17:35 <planetmaker> I'm not 100% positive whether something worse will happen than wrong graphics, if you change an existing layout 15:18:07 <planetmaker> Last time I did that, it worked for me in a test game, but... results looked funky 15:18:09 <George> do I need any check for layout if I set Minimal compatible GRF version 15:18:31 <planetmaker> No. Then you made sure one cannot update a savegame to that new version and you don't have to worry 15:18:44 <planetmaker> It's like a new grfID in pre-action14 times 15:18:54 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 15:19:22 <planetmaker> btw, set the min compatible version after you set the version 15:19:35 <George> Why? 15:19:45 <planetmaker> otherwise it will be ignored 15:20:03 <planetmaker> set as in sequence to define it in the sprite(s) 15:20:34 <planetmaker> possibly the NewGRF wiki needs to mention that... I just stumbled over it the other day 15:20:55 <George> I, found that on the wiki 15:20:57 <planetmaker> no, wiki already states it 15:21:00 <planetmaker> yup :-) 15:21:32 <George> Ok. I think I'll simply set the min version 15:21:49 <planetmaker> yup, increase the version by one and set the min version to the same 15:23:04 <George> Thank you. Just do not want to spend time on all this all code support. 15:23:26 <George> this old code 15:23:33 <planetmaker> :-) You're always welcome 15:24:17 <planetmaker> And understandable. I'd do the same if I were you, I guess :-) 15:28:42 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-094-220-139-075.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 15:31:16 *** rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-188-109-248-075.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:40:49 *** geheimdienst [~hk@p4FC94214.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 15:42:07 <Eddi|zuHause> now the change-newgrfs-in-running-game gui only needs to mention whether you are upgrading to a compatible or incompatible version of the grf 15:43:10 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-78-146-188-114.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 15:43:31 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, as you can't upgrade without removing... 15:44:04 <planetmaker> and the load gui will tell you, should you overwrite your NewGRF. It will fail to load a game with 'missing NewGRF', if the min_compatible_version is incompatible to what was used before 15:44:52 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yeah, frosch tried to make a patch for upgrading, but something held back that development... 15:45:37 <planetmaker> probably the fact that 'compatibility information' in principle cannot be trusted 15:46:21 <planetmaker> it would just be a way to replace one NewGRF by another which would need the same warning as is required now 15:52:27 <Eddi|zuHause> actually that was before action 14 15:53:02 <Eddi|zuHause> when you added a grf with same id, it would ask you whether you want to replace the one you already have on the list 15:54:14 <planetmaker> hm, did it? 15:54:23 <planetmaker> I can't remember that functionality :-) 15:56:35 <Eddi|zuHause> because it was never really implemented ;) 15:56:52 <planetmaker> ah, you mean only that patch allowed that? Ok :-) 15:57:13 <planetmaker> it probably still would make sense. E.g. with scenario_developer active 15:57:32 <Eddi|zuHause> yep 15:57:32 <planetmaker> but... I'll wait for the new scenario format with that ;-) 15:57:58 <planetmaker> which will allow update also for incompatible... thought that comes with a cost, too 15:58:31 <planetmaker> *though 16:05:38 *** sla_ro|vista [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 16:08:37 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:12:04 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 16:15:04 <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-263931-breitwandaufmacher-bfav.jpg <- "The imperator is about to take over the senate" 16:15:38 <planetmaker> :-D 16:15:59 <Terkhen> :P 16:16:16 <Terkhen> at least there he's only taking over the senate 16:16:29 <planetmaker> it's the German parliament actually... 16:16:33 <__ln__> can't see the sparks 16:16:36 <Terkhen> :P 16:17:08 <Terkhen> I know, what I mean is that a month ago it seemed as if he took over the entire country here 16:17:21 <Sacro> why does "if 'written' in line:" not work? 16:17:46 <Eddi|zuHause> he's earning quite a bit of resistance over here 16:18:08 <Terkhen> yes, I heard :P 16:18:10 <Eddi|zuHause> and criticism 16:18:21 <Terkhen> not here, though 16:18:29 <planetmaker> which reminds me somehow on "Michelangelo see the pope" by Monty Python: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1IJiAXjj7k 16:18:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: depends on what you want it to do 16:19:12 <Sacro> well 16:19:24 <Terkhen> planetmaker: that one is awesome :P 16:19:37 <Sacro> ahh 16:19:41 <Sacro> because I wanted line[0] 16:19:43 <planetmaker> it's one of my favourites, yes :-) 16:20:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: so your variable is misnamed, should be "lines"? 16:21:34 <Sacro> Pssh 16:21:44 <Sacro> no, items is an array of lines 16:22:07 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-86-49-8-22.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 16:22:52 <Terkhen> 28 disciples disliked this video 16:28:53 *** michi_cc [~michi@dude.icosahedron.de] has quit [Quit: michi_cc] 16:29:17 *** michi_cc [~michi@dude.icosahedron.de] has joined #openttd 16:29:20 *** mode/#openttd [+v michi_cc] by ChanServ 16:29:41 *** michi_cc [~michi@dude.icosahedron.de] has quit [] 16:29:42 *** michi_cc [~michi@dude.icosahedron.de] has joined #openttd 16:29:45 *** mode/#openttd [+v michi_cc] by ChanServ 16:39:51 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43:35 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 16:49:57 *** KouDy1 [~KouDy@ip-86-49-8-22.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 16:50:40 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-86-49-8-22.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:04:37 *** Phoenix_the_II [~ralph@home.deboom.biz] has joined #openttd 17:05:55 *** TheMask96 [martijn@sirius.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:12:48 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 17:12:51 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 17:13:00 *** TheMask96 [martijn@lust.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 17:17:29 <__ln__> http://www.vgtv.no/#!id=44115 17:17:53 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 17:19:05 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-178-004-187-053.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 17:42:11 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-9-226-201.as43234.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:45:37 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22951 /trunk/src/lang/ (italian.txt latvian.txt unfinished/basque.txt welsh.txt): 17:45:37 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:37 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: basque - 25 changes by HerrBasque 17:45:37 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: italian - 2 changes by Snail_ 17:45:37 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: latvian - 104 changes by Parastais 17:45:38 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: welsh - 187 changes by kazzie 17:48:35 *** jo2k [~Jonny@dslb-094-223-183-093.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 17:50:13 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.233.237.150] has joined #openttd 17:52:00 <Wolf01> hello 17:52:34 <appe> olleh! 17:55:23 <Terkhen> hi 17:55:45 <Alberth> hi 17:56:12 <__ln__> 'night Wolf01 17:56:24 <Wolf01> 'night __ln__ 17:56:33 <__ln__> hi Wolf01 17:56:38 <Wolf01> :) 17:58:53 *** geheimdienst [~hk@p4FC94214.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:04:55 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 18:15:24 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has left #openttd [] 18:22:32 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-9-226-201.as43234.net] has joined #openttd 18:26:18 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f6716.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 18:31:14 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-78-146-188-114.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:44:26 *** TrueBrain [~patric@145.118.73.65] has joined #openttd 18:47:18 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 19:00:27 <Elukka> hey, some libertarians want to build their own randian paradise on an artificial island 19:00:30 <Elukka> "Details says the experiment would be "a kind of floating petri dish for implementing policies that libertarians, stymied by indifference at the voting booths, have been unable to advance: no welfare, looser building codes, no minimum wage, and few restrictions on weapons." 19:00:34 <Elukka> this will end well 19:00:48 <Elukka> one could say the project will sink, perhaps literally 19:01:27 <Rubidium> Elukka: pff, just stop all government agencies for a few days 19:02:52 *** jo2k [~Jonny@dslb-094-223-183-093.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: jo2k] 19:05:24 <Elukka> seems to me an artificial habitat will require more regulation, not less 19:05:48 <__ln__> is everyone very upset by what finland and dutchland did? 19:06:55 <Elukka> i haven't been able to bring myself to care yet 19:08:40 <__ln__> the local news says it caused rage all around europe. 19:09:18 <Eddi|zuHause> anything specific that they did do? 19:09:53 <__ln__> prevented Bulgaria and Romania from joining the schengen area. 19:09:59 <Elukka> prevented romanian and bulgaria from joining the schengen agreement 19:10:03 <Elukka> beaten to it 19:17:02 <Elukka> "rage all around europe" sounds like a rather huge overstatement 19:17:18 <__ln__> Elukka: http://www.iltasanomat.fi/kotimaa/suomi-raivo-herasi-useassa-maassa-lupaukset-petetty/art-1288416007144.html 19:18:50 <Elukka> title says a thing, article doesn't actually talk about it at all 19:19:31 <Alberth> nobody reads large pieces of text :p 19:21:44 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6B695.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 19:23:59 *** Player [c3e46e97@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 19:28:20 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6BAC6.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:41:34 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-28-107-208.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 19:42:21 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 19:44:44 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 19:47:42 *** JVassie [~James@2.25.210.146] has joined #openttd 19:52:31 *** Brianett1 [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 20:06:21 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@027af076.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 20:17:43 <__ln__> Good news everyone, the speed of light has finally been exceeded! 20:18:53 <pjpe> maybe 20:19:05 <Elukka> probably not 20:19:37 <Elukka> someone else put it better 20:19:39 <Elukka> "Even the scientists who ran this experiment are being incredibly skeptical of the results, requesting as much outside verification as possible, and so should you. The implications would be astounding but let's wait and see it go through the proper merit review before you get too excited." 20:22:29 <Elukka> it'd be helpful if you could send a beam of light on the same path and measure if it took the same time 20:22:37 <Elukka> if it did, it wouldn't be going faster than light 20:22:45 <Elukka> but you can't 20:23:26 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:26:10 <Eddi|zuHause> beams of light usually don't travel at light speed 20:27:06 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, there are substances where a beam of light is so slow, you could overtake it on a bike :p 20:27:23 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: can you ride a bike in such substances? 20:27:34 <Elukka> yes but what they're talking about is obviously speed of light in vacuum 20:27:38 <Elukka> neutrinos are funny 20:27:42 <Eddi|zuHause> probably not, but i think it was a liquid 20:27:53 <Elukka> they just go through entire planets and don't give a crap 20:27:53 <b_jonas> also, is that horizontal? you can go faster on a bike downhill 20:28:43 <__ln__> Elukka: As far as I know there is not much vacuum between France and Italy. 20:29:02 <Elukka> i would assume they're capable of accounting for that 20:29:08 <SpComb> did they rememeber to take earth curvature into account? :) 20:29:12 <SpComb> a haa! 20:29:34 <__ln__> earth is flat, why would there be a curve 20:29:41 <SpComb> right 20:29:41 <Elukka> seems trivial enough 20:29:49 <Elukka> you calculate how long it would take to traverse the distance at c 20:31:09 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: obviously, the earth is curved to the inside. look at your shoes. the most worn down places are the front and the back, so earth must be concave 20:31:11 <frosch123> night 20:31:15 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f6716.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:31:31 <__ln__> true 20:31:35 <Yexo> "Alleen backup geluid is gevonden". <- what kind of translations is that? 20:31:57 <__ln__> a dutch one? 20:32:07 <Eddi|zuHause> Aliens? where? 20:32:20 <Rubidium> Yexo: the one that makes me refuse to use software translated to Dutch if I can 20:32:39 <Yexo> same for me 20:32:50 <Yexo> but openttd decided to start with dutch automatically 20:32:55 <Yexo> even though my windows install is english 20:33:09 <__ln__> should you blame me? 20:33:18 * Rubidium blames ... whoever wrote that bit of code 20:33:49 <__ln__> i think i did, though it was modified by glx before commit. 20:34:37 <devilsadvocate> 60 nanoseconds, 17 nanoseconds. Maybe the GPS satellites were out of whack. Maybe their calculations misses some floating point precision related truncation. Maybe someone forgot to sync to an atomic clock, and maybe there is a 'flaw' in NTP that doesnt allow it to sync down to 60 _nanoseconds_. For comparison, typical and gates take about 10-20 ns to switch 20:34:42 <Eddi|zuHause> bug: language detection is too intelligent! 20:34:44 <devilsadvocate> 17 meters* 20:34:51 <__ln__> but the whole automatic language selection thing was done with the approval of Tron, you can't argue with that. 20:35:54 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't argue with tron because he's not here... obviously 20:37:48 <Elukka> maybe they accounted for all of that but there's some as-yet-unfound relativistic effect with the earth's gravitational field 20:37:49 <Elukka> maybe whatever 20:37:52 <Elukka> lots of possibilities 20:38:35 <Elukka> which is why they're going "well this is odd, take a look at this to see if you can make sense of it" rather than "WE BROKE THE SPEED OF LIGHT" which is what most of the media is saying 20:39:53 <Rubidium> what is the speed of light anyway? What is the point of reference? 20:40:53 <Elukka> everything 20:41:01 <Terkhen> :P 20:41:32 <glx> Yexo: openttd uses what windows tells 20:41:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: it's probably the same as the "we found a new natural force" type of articles from a few months ago 20:41:50 <Yexo> glx: sure, but I can't find the windows setting 20:42:03 <Rubidium> earth is moving with a few hundred km per second through space, so... some light on one side of the earth would arrive 2000 km/s faster than at the other side 20:42:12 <Elukka> it doesn't matter where you are or at what speed relative to anything you're traveling, speed of light is always c from your perspective 20:42:20 <Yexo> display and input language are set to english, only format is set to dutch 20:43:04 <b_jonas> Elukka: as in http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1174 ? 20:43:16 <Elukka> kinda :D 20:43:22 <Prof_Frink> Rubidium: The speed of light is slightly faster than the speed at which ones brain melts when trying to understand relativity or quantum. 20:43:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: maybe there are system-settings and user-settings? 20:43:32 <Yexo> there are, all have the same value 20:43:49 <Elukka> light travels at c relative to everything 20:44:08 <Elukka> doesn't matter if you're standing still or in a starship moving at 0.99c, it still looks like it goes at c to you 20:44:20 <Elukka> don't ask me how, scary maths are involved 20:44:31 <b_jonas> oh wait, there's an obligatory link for that: 20:44:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Prof_Frink: understanding 7 dimensional physics is simple. you just imagine it as arbitrary-dimensional and then view 7 as a special case 20:44:59 <b_jonas> http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/ 20:45:11 <b_jonas> look under "Speed of Light" 20:45:50 <Elukka> relativity makes very little intuitive sense 20:46:03 <glx> Yexo: regional parameters maybe 20:46:09 <b_jonas> Elukka: yep 20:46:41 <Prof_Frink> Elukka: And if you have 2 spaceships on a head-on collision course at 0.99c each, the closing speed is somehow still less than c. 20:47:08 <Elukka> yup :D 20:47:26 <Rubidium> so they see eachother coming! ;) 20:47:59 <b_jonas> Rubidium: of course they see each other. they have Sensors. those can detect anything. 20:48:39 <Elukka> well spaceships are pretty easy to detect 20:48:49 <__ln__> unless they're cloaked 20:49:02 <Elukka> it's a serious possibility that if aliens were flying around in our stellar neighborhood we would be capable of detecting them with current technology 20:49:09 <Elukka> their starships, even if they are lightyears away 20:49:21 <Elukka> space is so empty it's a very sensor-friendly environment 20:49:23 <b_jonas> yep 20:49:25 <appe> i guess this is the channel for discussing the OPERA experiment ;) 20:49:41 <appe> im hoping for a round-off error ;) 20:49:44 <Elukka> cloaking doesn't work! 20:50:11 <Prof_Frink> Tell that to the Klingons behind you. 20:50:44 <b_jonas> appe: which one is that? the gravity wave detectors on satellites? 20:51:04 <Elukka> i invested a few bucks in an IR sensor and shot them way before they got to do anything, frink 20:51:04 <appe> the OPERA experiment is the gran sasso > geneva neutrino experiment 20:51:21 <b_jonas> you know, two satellites far of each other sending laser beams and measuring how their phase changes to detect very tiny movement 20:51:41 <appe> where they (according to ereditato) measured the 69 nanosecond difference. 20:52:36 <Elukka> that's what spawned this discussion 20:52:40 <appe> ah, i see. 20:54:15 <appe> i have been following the main particle acellerator for some years now. it suprises me that i didnt already know about the OPERA results. 20:56:22 <Elukka> on a more openttd note, a friend wanted to try compiling it with cargodist for me and to maybe play some multi 20:56:33 <Elukka> apparently it's quite hard and the guide on the wiki doesn't really work 20:56:58 <Elukka> he's trying to cross compile to windows on linux 20:57:07 <b_jonas> cross compiling is always hard 20:57:15 <b_jonas> you shouldn't expect the openttd wiki to guide you there 20:57:26 <Elukka> okay so what way of compiling openttd isn't hard 20:57:40 <Prof_Frink> livid compiling. 20:57:42 <b_jonas> native compiling 20:57:54 <Elukka> but last time i asked people said it's hard on windows but a breeze on linux 20:58:07 <b_jonas> could be 20:58:11 <b_jonas> I never tried on windows 20:58:27 <b_jonas> but cross-compiling from linux to windows can't be easier than native compiling on windows 20:58:37 <Elukka> so when people say it's easy to compile, it means it's easy to compile a linux binary on linux :P 20:58:54 <Yexo> Elukka: it's easy to compile a windows binary on windows 20:59:06 <Elukka> "Nothing out of the ordinary needs to be done for OpenTTD, just a few options need to be set in Makefile.config. Everthing else should be left unset / set as the default:" 20:59:06 <b_jonas> Elukka: yes 20:59:15 <Elukka> apparently it's not really told what is supposed to be set there 20:59:50 <b_jonas> Elukka: also, these days you need libxz if you want to see the splash screen scenario 20:59:59 <b_jonas> um, wait, it's not called libxz 21:00:04 <b_jonas> whatever that decompression library is 21:00:14 <b_jonas> but if you don't need the splash screen, you don't need it 21:00:14 <Elukka> well, i suppose that's secondary to the game itself working 21:01:09 <Elukka> so, anyone happen to know what that 'nothing out of the ordinary' that needs to be done is? 21:01:38 <b_jonas> Elukka: you don't need to set anything if it works that way 21:01:40 <Rubidium> b_jonas: it's equally hard, or harder, to cross compile a windows binary 21:01:50 <b_jonas> you need to change settings if it doesn't work or doesn't work the way you want 21:01:56 <Elukka> well it doesn't work 21:02:22 <Rubidium> the point is that you need to perform the same steps as you would on windows (install mingw32, compile the libraries and such) with the added difficulty of having to separate native linux and windows libraries 21:02:31 <Rubidium> (and possibly headers as well) 21:02:35 <Elukka> he got it to build a linux version 21:02:37 <Elukka> just not a windows one 21:02:39 <b_jonas> Rubidium: yes, that's what I said, right? 21:03:31 <Rubidium> hmm, guess I highlighted the wrong one... it's too late already 21:04:02 <Rubidium> even then, install MSVC2008 express and then use the given libraries really isn't that hard 21:04:27 <Rubidium> what makes it hard is thinking you follow it by the letter, but somehow don't quite follow it by the letter 21:04:50 <Elukka> this guy trying to do it is way more experienced than me, i wouldn't have a chance 21:04:54 <Rubidium> (and possibly the fact that people think the wiki is outdated and change the old directx sdk link to the newest directx sdk) 21:05:26 <Rubidium> though I agree getting the required stuff for native compiling on Linux is a lot easier 21:06:30 <Elukka> it seems he's done everything according to the guide except the unexplained 'nothing out of the ordinary' parts, and can't get it to compile a windows binary 21:06:33 <Rubidium> but installing the native toolchain on Windows is significantly easier than installing an OSX toolchain on linux 21:07:37 <Elukka> just needs to know what has to be done with the makefile 21:08:00 <planetmaker> Lool :-) 21:08:10 <planetmaker> That's probably one of the most difficult things, Rubidium :-) 21:08:18 <planetmaker> when it comes to compiling 21:08:30 <Rubidium> yep 21:08:34 <planetmaker> (or many might easily do that) 21:08:45 <Rubidium> cross compiling OpenTTD to DOS is definitely easier 21:10:16 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [] 21:10:23 <Elukka> "the step that's failing on the guide is the 'Nothing out of the ordinary needs to be done for OpenTTD, just a few options need to be set in Makefile.config.'" 21:10:26 <Elukka> "there is no makefile.config or I'm dumb and don't know how to get one" 21:11:02 <Rubidium> Elukka: which guide is that? 21:11:24 <Rubidium> the one that says: valid for versions before r77xx? 21:11:24 <Elukka> http://wiki.openttd.org/Cross_Compiling 21:11:27 <glx> we droped Makefile.config a very long time ago 21:11:42 <Elukka> well, people said to follow guides on the wiki 21:11:46 <Rubidium> Elukka: that's so horridly ancient 21:11:47 <Elukka> are there more recent ones? 21:12:01 <Rubidium> Elukka: follow the wiki for the native builds 21:12:05 <glx> usual ./configure --host --build 21:12:12 <glx> or something 21:12:34 <Rubidium> yep 21:12:41 <Elukka> the wiki for native builds? 21:12:58 <Rubidium> ./configure --host=i386-mingw32msvc (for starters) 21:13:19 <Rubidium> it'll probably fail horribly as it tries to pick up native libraries 21:13:41 <Rubidium> Elukka: cross compiling isn't documented as it works like it works for most applications 21:14:40 <Elukka> then i would say it's rather misleading to present 'follow the guides on the wiki' as the solution to compiling 21:15:06 <planetmaker> Elukka: cross-compiling is nothing one usually needs nor does 21:15:07 <Rubidium> it is to compiling, but it isn't to *cross*-compiling 21:15:10 <Terkhen> Elukka: I meant of course the native build options 21:15:16 <Terkhen> I also mentioned specifically MinGW and MSVC 21:15:51 <Elukka> people also mentioned how compiling it is much easier on linux and how in fact i should just go install linux :) 21:15:56 <Terkhen> if you know how to use consoles, follow the MinGW tutorial 21:16:04 <planetmaker> you're basically demanding like "if you can read, why can't you read this old-egyptian?!" 21:16:08 <Terkhen> I updated the tutorial a few weeks ago 21:16:46 <Yexo> the vs2008 tutorial is also still uptodate 21:16:51 <__ln__> Elukka: compiling is also pretty straight-forward on Mac. 21:18:13 <Elukka> there isn't anything on the wiki guide indicating it's outdated 21:18:16 <Terkhen> btw, is Openttd doing something special to get line numbers on MSVC stack traces? 21:18:22 <Elukka> the cross compiling one i mean 21:19:20 <Terkhen> it's a wiki, someone just updated the article with a big "outdated" sign :) 21:20:02 <Elukka> well, now there is :P 21:20:03 <Elukka> thanks 21:21:03 <Rubidium> Terkhen: you mean those in crash.log? 21:21:15 <Rubidium> see os/windows/crashlog_win.cpp 21:21:33 <Terkhen> I meant the ones in the stacktrace from MSVC 21:21:36 <glx> MSVC uses the .pdb 21:22:21 <Terkhen> so, the pdb should include all of that information? 21:22:26 <Terkhen> at least for MSVC 21:22:32 <glx> yes like -g for gcc 21:22:46 <Terkhen> thanks, then I must be doing something wrong :) 21:22:48 <glx> except it's in an external file 21:23:29 <glx> you just need to have openttd.exe and openttd.pdb in the same place 21:24:14 <glx> and pdb must be created at the same time as exe 21:25:06 <glx> that's why we store pdb next to exe in binaries ;) 21:29:35 <Terkhen> ok, thanks :) 21:30:04 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:30:13 *** Brianett1 is now known as Brianetta 21:39:59 <z-MaTRiX> heyho 21:45:37 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-107-13.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:54:25 *** KouDy1 [~KouDy@ip-86-49-8-22.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:55:56 <Terkhen> good night 21:56:34 *** MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd 21:57:19 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-178-004-187-053.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 21:57:37 <appe> i was thinking about this neutrino thingy 21:57:54 <appe> we measure neutrino mass from supernovas 21:58:31 <planetmaker> good ngiht 21:58:33 <appe> judging by the standard length between earth and supernovas, we should be able to detect neutrinos several years before supernova accurs, if neutrinos were moving faster then light. 21:58:52 <Elukka> huh. 21:58:52 <Elukka> true 21:59:00 <appe> but we dont, the neutrino "tops" corelates to the photons from the supernova 21:59:06 <__ln__> appe: plural: supernovae 21:59:12 <appe> ah, thank you. 21:59:21 <appe> my science is better then my english, i guess. 21:59:26 <__ln__> *than 21:59:40 <appe> or as someone put it earlier today: typo thursday. 22:00:17 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-040-223.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 22:00:57 *** Markavian [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:02:49 *** George|2 [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 22:02:49 *** George is now known as Guest11287 22:02:49 *** George|2 is now known as George 22:08:00 *** Guest11287 [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:09:10 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 22:12:16 <Elukka> okay, so the supernovae we're staring at with our telescopes are millions of light years away 22:12:32 <devilsadvocate> appe: nice 22:12:46 <Elukka> if neutrinos were to travel a bit faster than light, so that there's noticeable gap at a distance of hundreds of kilometers... there should be a huge gap at millions of light years 22:12:47 <devilsadvocate> you have my respect 22:12:50 <Elukka> yet obviously there isn't 22:13:22 <appe> exactly. 22:14:03 <appe> according to the experiment, a 10.000 light year supernova would have neutrino charges detected >4 years before the actual blast 22:14:06 *** theos [~Theos@ool-4576c1d9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #openttd 22:14:48 <appe> yet, we can measure (read: sudbury neutrino observatory) neutrino charges, and even use them to determine energy and positions of exploding stars 22:15:08 *** sla_ro|vista [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 22:17:19 <appe> at the same time, this is something we can measure ourselves 22:17:53 <appe> normal particle acellerators would have gone bonkers years ago. 22:17:53 <appe> :) 22:19:26 <Elukka> we've picked up neutrinos from a supernova 6 million light years away in another galaxy 22:19:33 <Elukka> so there should have been quite the gap 22:20:39 <Wolf01> 'night 22:20:41 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.233.237.150] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 22:22:43 <appe> correct 22:22:46 <appe> though 22:23:09 <Elukka> ...they'd have arrived way before we started to observe neutrinos 22:23:15 <appe> since there arent any released peer reviewed paper on this yet, im asuming something might be wrong. 22:23:32 <appe> what we talk about above here is absolute clear to any particle physicist 22:23:48 <Elukka> we haven't observed a single supernova in our galaxy 22:23:59 <Elukka> well we have but wiki says the latest was in the 17th century 22:24:23 <appe> we dont have to. the neutrino we detect today is enough the make out the position and energy of a given supernova, even before we observe the photons. 22:24:42 <appe> so it's quite safe to say we already know the given speed of the given neutrino :) 22:25:05 <appe> what actually interests me more is what kind of neutrino they created 22:25:47 *** TB [~patric@145.118.73.176] has joined #openttd 22:25:49 <appe> as far as i know, crasching hydrogen core protons on a graphite target makes electron neutrino with masses smaller then two electron volts 22:25:55 <Elukka> but in the hypothetical scenario that they do indeed move faster than light, supernova observations doesn't necessarily rule it out 22:26:31 <appe> a supernova might create tauon-neutrinos with <18MeV. 22:26:36 <appe> -hueg- difference. 22:26:57 <appe> and: huge difference in mass = huge difference in terms of relativity. 22:27:02 <appe> one might guess. 22:27:13 <Elukka> if they can't figure this out, they should repeat the experiment in vacuum... 22:27:15 <appe> Elukka: well, no. that's the issue. 22:27:31 <Elukka> seems likely they'll figure it out somehow though 22:27:44 <appe> the OPERA test was 4*15000 collisions with the same amount of neutrino "bunch tops". 22:27:48 <appe> yeah 22:28:29 <Elukka> problem with this is you can't send photons on the same path to see if they travel at a slower speed? 22:28:31 <Elukka> erm 22:28:36 <appe> even if im as sceptical as the claim is bold - im very excited. these are real CERN people with real CERN gear, and they usually doesnt mock shit around. 22:28:38 <Elukka> that wasn't supposed to be a question 22:28:44 <Elukka> accidental question mark 22:29:26 <appe> you actually can. if you have particle acellerator with a tauon neutrino gun, you can compare the two side by side. 22:29:51 <appe> and we have the technology to build it right now 22:30:04 <appe> we also have the technology to build an orion star ship 22:30:12 <appe> catch my drift :,( 22:30:20 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:30:24 *** roboboy [3aad2b37@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 22:30:33 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-9-226-201.as43234.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:32:27 <Elukka> heh 22:32:58 <Elukka> i meant they can't currently repeat the experiment with light, since light doesn't very well travel through a few hundred kilometers of rock 22:33:17 *** TrueBrain [~patric@145.118.73.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:33:33 <Elukka> and orion is kinda weak and slow for a starship :P 22:34:02 <Elukka> (it's very telling of just how much energy a real starship would need when a load full of nuclear bombs is insufficient) 22:34:47 <appe> why use rock when you can use an acellerator? luckely, we have long enough been able to detect photons in such a way, that removing the numbers created from the (not so perfect) vakuum of the acellerator, we can run it, examin it and theoreticly compare it with the data from the neutrino. 22:35:22 <appe> Elukka: well, the orion project was indeed a thing of the past. people had to put their nukes somewhere. :P 22:35:50 <appe> to quote carl sagan: "dear mr. president. i have a perfect place for you to store your missiles. wink." 22:36:13 <Elukka> it remains the most powerful spacecraft engine we could build 22:37:21 <Elukka> probably will for a good long while 22:37:23 <appe> really? 22:37:34 <appe> what of ion propulsion? 22:37:46 <MNIM> ion propulsion? hah 22:37:52 <Elukka> there aren't many engines that provide both high thrust and specific impulse (fuel efficiency essentially) 22:38:27 <Elukka> ion engines provide maybe a thousandth or less of orion's thrust at around the same specific impulse 22:38:44 <MNIM> a thousandth may be overstating the ion engine 22:38:48 <Elukka> yeah 22:38:50 <MNIM> a millionth, more like it 22:39:24 <Elukka> we have engines with excellent thrust but really crappy specific impulse (chemical rockets) 22:39:24 *** roboboy [3aad2b37@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 22:39:34 <Elukka> and engines with excellent specific impulse but really crappy thrust (ion) 22:39:49 <MNIM> ion engines (currently) have a horrible trust/weight ratio 22:39:54 <Elukka> they always will 22:40:17 <Elukka> the type of engine just doesn't provide for much thrust 22:41:08 <Elukka> we could also build nuclear thermal rockets which, very roughly, have half a chemical rocket's thrust but double its specific impulse 22:41:13 <Elukka> there's also VASIMR of course 22:41:28 <Elukka> which should generate rather more useful amounts of thrust than ion engines at a comparable specific impulse 22:41:34 <MNIM> currently, at this very moment, the best compromise between trust/weight/specific impulse is a LOX+LOH engine 22:42:02 <Elukka> depends, kerosene is usually better for launch vehicle first stages 22:42:08 <__ln__> not thrust by any chance 22:42:29 <MNIM> ehh, depends how you look at it. 22:42:52 <MNIM> kerosene simply has less energy/unit of fuel 22:43:03 <Elukka> yes but it's way denser 22:43:14 <devilsadvocate> ion propulsion is more useful in vaccum 22:43:15 <MNIM> exactly, that's the major difference. 22:43:31 <Elukka> devil, it doesn't even work outside vacuum 22:43:47 <MNIM> oh it works. 22:43:51 <devilsadvocate> Elukka: it does 22:43:51 <Elukka> does it? hm. 22:44:01 <Elukka> well, it doesn't provide any useful amount of thrust in anything but vacuum 22:44:02 <devilsadvocate> its just that nothing would actually move 22:44:04 <MNIM> but training a fly to push against the rocket will provide more thrust 22:45:10 <devilsadvocate> but for deep space propulsion, hooking up ion accelerators to the spacecraft is right now the best bet for a reasonable propulsion system 22:45:38 <Elukka> i think nuclear thermal or VASIMR are the best bets 22:45:39 <MNIM> the key here is *deep* space 22:45:55 <Elukka> nuclear thermal if you want something you can be sure works 22:46:10 <devilsadvocate> you still need an ejectable mass 22:46:20 <Elukka> yeah, usually hydrogen 22:46:23 <MNIM> uhhh, I doubt thermonuclear rockets will ever be man-rated 22:46:32 <Elukka> why not? 22:46:45 <Elukka> they built a flight-ready upper stage nuclear thermal rocket for the Saturn V 22:46:49 <devilsadvocate> thermal may not provide sufficient thrust for a reasonable mass 22:46:49 <Elukka> it was just never flown 22:46:55 <MNIM> well, did you read over that past few times that we mentioned /thermonuclear/? 22:47:04 <MNIM> that's hardly an argument, elukka. 22:47:11 <Elukka> nuclear thermal rockets are simply a reactor that heats a working mass 22:47:15 <Elukka> no exploding involved 22:47:25 <MNIM> they've built thermonuclear trains and aircraft! 22:47:39 <Elukka> devilsadvocate, thrust to weight ratios of 30 or so have been achieved 22:47:51 <devilsadvocate> Elukka: 'heating' things to speed them up isnt as efficient as accelerating them 22:47:56 <devilsadvocate> (otherwise) 22:48:07 <Pinkbeast> Surely for trains it is easier to leave the nuclear reactor besides the railway line 22:48:09 <Elukka> aerojet says LOX can be injected in a kind of afterburner at the cost of some isp, increasing thrust by at least 50% 22:48:15 <devilsadvocate> to accelerate them, you may ultimately end up using a nuclear reactor as the power source 22:48:20 <Elukka> um 22:48:23 <devilsadvocate> but thermal acceleration is just, meh 22:48:36 <Elukka> a nuclear thermal rocket is a nuclear reactor that heats a working mass that is expelled out the nozzle 22:48:53 <appe> ..and that sucks. 22:49:03 <Pinkbeast> I don't see why a thermonuclear rocket couldn't be man-rated 22:49:05 <appe> exploding yourself away is not really an option for deep space 22:49:06 <devilsadvocate> it has like the suckiest efficiencies you can come up with 22:49:10 <Elukka> it has the second most thrust right after chemical rockets 22:49:24 <appe> exploding yourself into orbit and continuing on ion propulsion is the key, if you ask me. 22:49:30 <devilsadvocate> and for it to last, you need a shitload of mass 22:49:33 <Elukka> i wouldn't call a thrust to weight ratio of 30 and a specific impulse of 1000 seconds very crummy 22:49:33 <Pinkbeast> Elukka> er so why not chemical rockets then? 22:49:44 <devilsadvocate> and then you need more fuel to move the fule 22:49:48 <Elukka> because a nuclear thermal rocket has more than double the specific impulse, pinkbeast 22:50:02 <appe> i guess you are talking about exothermic reactive fuel when you say "chemical rockets"? 22:50:15 <Pinkbeast> How long will it be before I mention Project Orion oh wait 22:50:28 <Elukka> the discussion started with orion :P 22:50:36 <devilsadvocate> Elukka: i'm not talking about a single shot, i'm talking about something that you can turn on and off for extended period of time 22:50:39 <appe> the discussion started with neutrino :( 22:50:45 <Elukka> NTRs aren't single shot 22:51:07 <devilsadvocate> its much easier and more efficient to try to accelerate ions than to heat everything up 22:51:07 <Pinkbeast> Have we had "Supporters of Project Orion felt that it had potential for cheap interplanetary travel, but it lost political approval over concerns with fallout from its propulsion.", which must be roughly the dryest sentence on Wikipedia 22:51:16 <Elukka> heat everything up? 22:51:21 <Elukka> you're just heating up propellant that's piped through the reactor 22:51:48 <Elukka> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/NERVA.jpg 22:52:34 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-78-146-188-114.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 22:52:54 <Elukka> project orion and nuclear thermal are entirely different 22:53:11 <Elukka> at any rate, any fast deep space propulsion system will involve a nuclear reactor 22:53:15 <devilsadvocate> and the generally isotropic nature of thermal modes means you end up losing energy 22:53:18 <Elukka> be it VASIMR or an actual nuclear rocket 22:53:39 <Elukka> it's still more than doubly as efficient as a chemical rocket 22:53:42 <devilsadvocate> sure, you need some energy source 22:53:53 <Pinkbeast> Elukka> entirely different> I know, I'm just babbling 22:54:04 <Pinkbeast> How deep is the "deep space" you are envisaging? 22:55:01 <Elukka> interplanetary 22:55:10 <Elukka> say for a mars mission 22:55:42 <Pinkbeast> Orion makes getting to Mars easy. :-) 22:55:45 <Elukka> devilsadvocate, note that a nuclear thermal rocket doesn't generate electricity, so the thermal power of the reactor isn't wasted 22:56:11 * Pinkbeast and Wednesday saw George Dyson interview Freeman Dyson about it; they wanted to sent a manned mission to Jupiter. 22:56:20 <Elukka> at any rate, the numbers work out 22:56:33 <Elukka> it's good enough to be useful 22:57:37 <Elukka> http://www.astronautix.com/engines/timnd250.htm 22:57:43 <Elukka> timberwind nuclear thermal rocket specs 22:57:59 <Elukka> developed by the US department of energy, of all things 22:58:24 <appe> hehe, dyson. 22:58:31 <appe> that's actually a life's goal 22:58:36 <appe> a complete dyson sphere 22:58:42 <appe> better start working 22:58:45 <Pinkbeast> "A life"? 22:59:20 <Elukka> timberwind could be good enough to be used on a launch vehicle 22:59:36 <Pinkbeast> Even if I believed in a shiny Larry Niven technological future where growth continues forever I would be pleasantly surprised if a Dyson sphere was built in a timeframe where the builders were recognisably human. 22:59:51 <Elukka> and in space it has enough thrust to make use of the oberth effect in contrast to low thrust engines like VASIMR 23:00:05 <Pinkbeast> ... pleasantly surprised other than being long dead. :-) 23:00:19 <Elukka> heh 23:00:28 <Pinkbeast> PS, Elukka, _when_ tomorrow do you think they're releasing Railworks 3? 23:00:38 <appe> the thing is, we will never need a dyson sphere 23:00:41 <appe> never ever. 23:00:56 <Elukka> the launcher says 1 am UK time, so... an hour-ish? 23:01:56 <Elukka> http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/r/rd0410.jpg 23:02:00 <Elukka> the soviets did some things with nuclear rockets too 23:02:01 <Pinkbeast> Hmmmm. I suspect Heather will not be overly enchanted if I tell her to stay home tonight. 23:02:08 <Elukka> i don't think it got as far as the american versions though 23:02:17 <Elukka> well um 23:02:21 <Elukka> it's released now 23:02:21 <Elukka> right now 23:02:25 <Elukka> steam just started updating at this second 23:04:07 <Pinkbeast> Vade retro, Steam. 23:06:18 <Elukka> hey, steam is fast for a change 23:06:28 <Elukka> won't take more than an hour or so to download 23:09:19 *** JVassie [~James@2.25.210.146] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:09:19 * Pinkbeast throws the switch marked "rei", see you in a bit... 23:19:51 *** hanf^ [~Klaus@host-89-241-65-90.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 23:21:04 *** hanf^ [~Klaus@host-89-241-65-90.as13285.net] has quit [] 23:21:59 <z-MaTRiX> hi 23:22:11 <z-MaTRiX> howcome fullscreen is broken on linux in 1.1.1 ? 23:22:29 <z-MaTRiX> the top of the picture is screwed 23:22:36 <z-MaTRiX> in all resolutions 23:23:08 <Eddi|zuHause> don't report bugs for 1.1.1 23:23:22 <Eddi|zuHause> update to 1.1.3 and check whether it still exists 23:23:36 <Eddi|zuHause> (although i presume that to be a problem specific to your system) 23:25:17 <z-MaTRiX> ah okay anyway the 1.05 has it too 23:25:26 <z-MaTRiX> there is something with the video mode 23:25:43 <z-MaTRiX> ;/ 23:25:52 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-78-146-188-114.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:26:28 <z-MaTRiX> now the whole X11 went crazy 23:28:32 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-5d820530.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] 23:30:12 <Elukka> guy trying to compile a windows binary on linux would like to know if /configure --host=i486-mingw32 suffices for cross compilation 23:31:36 <glx> probably not enough 23:33:57 <Eddi|zuHause> what's preventing you from compiling on windows? 23:34:15 <z-MaTRiX> changed the x11 frequency to 60-75-85hz then back to 75hz and its normal again, the lines gone... what can cause this? 23:34:28 <Elukka> i don't have the knowhow to compile, he started doing it on linux on the assumption it was easier 23:34:34 <Eddi|zuHause> z-MaTRiX: nothing in openttd can cause this 23:34:49 <z-MaTRiX> was thinking about some wrong mode setting in SDL 23:34:54 <Eddi|zuHause> z-MaTRiX: it's either your screen, or your graphics driver 23:35:09 <Elukka> glx: any idea what more is needed? 23:35:16 <Yexo> Elukka: compiling on windows for windows is definitely easier than compiling on linux for windows 23:35:24 <Yexo> compiling on linux for linux is even easier 23:35:37 <glx> you need to cross compile required libs 23:35:58 <glx> then pass the path to cross-compiled libs to configure 23:36:16 <z-MaTRiX> yeah for linux, just uncompress, then ./configure --enable-debug=3 --without-liblzo2 23:36:19 <z-MaTRiX> and make 23:36:21 <glx> it's way easier to compile natively on windows 23:38:01 <Pinkbeast> Elukka> not to add to the tide, but I just followed the instructions on the wiki to compile natively on Windows and it Just Worked (tm) 23:38:19 <Pinkbeast> (with MinGW) 23:44:38 <z-MaTRiX> someone working on generalization? 23:44:51 <z-MaTRiX> right now there are many version games being hosted 23:45:28 <z-MaTRiX> į already have 5 versiont compiled