Log for #openttd on 22nd September 2011:
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00:58:49  <Terkhen> good night
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06:30:29  <Terkhen> good morning
06:33:27  <planetmaker> moin
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06:51:13  <norbert79> Morning
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07:04:59  <appe> good morning
07:05:04  <norbert79> Morning appe
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07:49:31  <dihedral> good morning
07:50:44  <norbert79> morning dihidrogene-monoxide :)
07:51:11  <dihedral> i am not sure i consider that a compliment :-P
07:51:27  <norbert79> Well, water is cool. Without water there is no life.
07:51:37  <norbert79> nor openttd
07:52:06  <dihedral> but the name only suits a human to 90% :-P
07:52:14  <dihedral> i am so much more
07:52:26  <norbert79> but it keeps thing flowing :)
07:52:29  <norbert79> things
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07:54:10  <dihedral> i feel so cheap
07:54:39  <norbert79> ...oook, I guess referring to the huge ammount of water in the ocean won't help here either...
07:55:01  <norbert79> Damn, I wanted to make a more intelligent line, and still failed. :)
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07:57:17  <appe> 21:52 < norbert79> Well, water is cool. Without water there is no life.
07:57:18  <appe> 21:53 < norbert79> nor openttd
07:57:35  <appe> and so, norbert took his ten two commandments and led the jews to freedom.
07:57:45  <appe> -ten
07:57:55  <norbert79> lol
07:57:57  <appe> "ten two"
07:58:02  <appe> :,(
07:58:07  <norbert79> Sounds like a police-code
07:58:10  <norbert79> :)
07:58:14  <norbert79> 10-4!
07:58:35  <norbert79> appe: 9:53pm over there? Australia?
07:58:50  <appe> wrong side ;).
07:58:53  <appe> sweden
07:59:02  <norbert79> Impossible :S
07:59:13  <norbert79> Your clock is set wrong then :)
07:59:15  <appe> oh jebus
07:59:18  <appe> it's 12 hours wrong
07:59:21  <appe> im in australia!
07:59:27  <appe> for some reason
07:59:42  <norbert79> you mixed up the am/pm possibly
07:59:52  <appe> not my server
08:00:11  <appe> this is what happens when you ssh trough server, trough server, trough server.
08:00:28  <norbert79> yeah, you time-travle
08:00:30  <norbert79> travel
08:00:38  <appe> my shell is a delorean
08:00:43  <appe> with a 1,21 gigawatt psu
08:00:47  <peter1138> trough?
08:00:57  <norbert79> through he meant
08:01:33  <appe> :<
08:01:44  <norbert79> appe: Cool, get me some laced shoes when you will come back, it will be much cheaper in the future for sure :)
08:01:58  <dihedral> appe, that should be enough to run at least irssi
08:02:01  <norbert79> but you could also say hi to Mr. Spock when going a bit further
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08:03:37  <norbert79> I wonder if the doc ever considered the fact entering into a wall with the DeLorean while time-travel, since there was no guarantee, that there won't be a building, when traveling through time at the same spot.
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08:06:20  <appe> well, when he travel back in time, that's (relatively) easy to control.
08:06:25  <appe> dihedral: i guess.
08:06:33  <norbert79> Sliders was cool, it was the first tv-series, which was closer to current theories about time, and it was also a good demonstration of the relative theory of Einstein. (They travelled through the same few hours/days all over and over again, but in different dimensions, yet they aged)
08:06:54  <norbert79> relativitiy
08:06:58  <norbert79> eh
08:07:10  <norbert79> typo everything! :)
08:07:20  <appe> relativitly?
08:07:29  <norbert79> relativity theory
08:07:41  <norbert79> told ya, typo-day
08:07:47  <appe> am i using the word correctly up there?
08:07:58  <appe> i really need to work on my english spelling, and grammar
08:08:00  <norbert79> guess so...
08:08:03  <appe> after all these years.
08:08:03  <appe> ..
08:08:18  <appe> im swedish, im supposed to speak better english then english peopel.
08:08:23  <appe> people*.
08:08:30  <appe> typo tuesday
08:08:39  <norbert79> Thursday that is
08:09:26  <norbert79> I am Hungarian, and speaking German and English, yet even I have issues, and when I get in shape with German, my English starts fading, and then it goes all around, I start working on English, then my German suffers... :)
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08:09:56  <appe> wait what, it's thursday?
08:09:59  <norbert79> Indeed
08:10:23  <appe> i really need to stop working like this
08:10:30  <norbert79> 22nd of September, 2011, Thursday
08:11:13  <Hirundo> Eddi|zuHause: What's so scary about bridge action0s?
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08:17:41  <planetmaker> bridges are not fully NewGRF-implemented yet
08:18:07  <planetmaker> but adding an action0 'max_height' should still be no issue
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08:31:26  <appe> i think i missed out badly on this grf thing
08:31:54  <appe> i actually thought all usable grf were housed in the online content menu.
08:34:54  <Elukka> if only
08:36:20  <planetmaker> 90% are
08:36:42  <planetmaker> and the remaining 10% is not their due to stubborn authors
08:37:48  <appe> i see
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09:23:59  <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: people will want action 1/2/3 support and stuff, it's something a heightlevel patch should not bother with...
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09:25:30  <norbert79> I need a bit more sleep
09:26:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i managed to get a 1.7 in my AI exam!
09:26:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really know how...
09:26:51  <norbert79> AI exam? Well, congratulations!
09:27:07  <norbert79> 1.7 is a well done note
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09:27:38  <__ln__> is the scale 1..5, 1 is best?
09:27:46  <norbert79> In the German one, yes
09:27:49  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
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09:27:58  <norbert79> In Hungary it's just the opposite
09:28:07  <__ln__> here as well
09:28:17  <Eddi|zuHause> actually it's 1..4 and failed
09:28:23  <__ln__> 1..5, 5 is best.  (well, technically 0..5, 0 is fail)
09:28:43  <norbert79> we have no 0... It's full enough being blamed by a 1 :)
09:29:04  <norbert79> for...
09:29:25  <norbert79> Which school you are attending Eddi|zuHause ?
09:29:29  <__ln__> failures are not usually expressed as 0, no
09:29:50  <Eddi|zuHause> the Martin Luther university of halle-wittenberg
09:30:14  <norbert79> Oh, nice, yet coming from the name I wouldn't have expected technical related topics :)
09:31:56  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: "Zentrum fÃŒr Ingenieurwissenschaften", am I right?
09:32:02  <b_jonas> failures are written as 1 but are either counted as 0 in formulas or is handled specially
09:32:05  <Eddi|zuHause> not really
09:32:08  <b_jonas> or is treated as -infty
09:32:13  <b_jonas> depends on the application
09:32:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i am studying computer science
09:32:20  <__ln__> strange that a modern day university can be named after such a person
09:32:35  <b_jonas> __ln__: why? it's all politics
09:32:39  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Just browsing through the Uni webpage. __ln__ : Why?
09:32:50  <Eddi|zuHause> the university is over 500 years old
09:33:22  <Eddi|zuHause> and martin luther is a very famous and influential person around here...
09:33:23  <__ln__> because Luther has written a book called "On the Jews and Their Lies".  (i haven't read it, dunno if it's any good)
09:33:31  <norbert79> And it's not the old DDR era, where all the universities and colleges had to be renamed...
09:33:39  <norbert79> __ln__: So?
09:34:23  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: that's not really what he is famous for. but admittedly that has been abused in nazi times
09:34:51  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: but so has wagner
09:34:56  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: No wonder really.
09:35:03  <Eddi|zuHause> and they're still playing wagner nowadays
09:35:21  <norbert79> Except for some German tunes, like the Horst-Wessel Lied
09:35:47  <norbert79> But we have also some portions of culture, which get or got abused often :(
09:36:00  <Eddi|zuHause> except the israelis, they have some kind of trouble admitting publicly that wagner made good music
09:36:12  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Politics... :)
09:36:47  <Eddi|zuHause> there was a huge outcry recently where an israelian orchestra wanted to perform on the wagner-festspiele in bayreuth
09:37:00  <norbert79> __ln__: Hard, and touchy topics are such, and despite for many cases, where things are either black or white, still the world isn't
09:37:15  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Damn it, it's just music for Pete's sake
09:37:24  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: I will never understand such people
09:37:37  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: There is no text, just classical music...
09:38:07  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: It's not like some black goth flick with texts about death and such...
09:38:30  <norbert79> Wagner is Wagner, period.
09:39:11  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: anyway, it would be really silly to reject luther's influence on germany by reducing him to that one book.
09:40:09  <norbert79> __ln__: Just think about it, views of one can change. Even to worse or better, or just different. Why to reject someone because he had a view of something at one period of a time? Shouldn't be the actions of one being judged by?
09:41:39  <norbert79> Despite if I am thinking on good things, like flowers, but keep stepping on your toe, and not saying sorry it still makes me a moron... :)
09:42:07  <MNIM> Eddi: quite probably because wagner supported nazism, was anti-zionistic and a huge promoter of Aryanism.
09:42:33  <MNIM> you can imagine most Israeli don't really like him for that
09:42:36  <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: even bad people write good music
09:42:45  <MNIM> true.
09:42:54  <MNIM> hitler made pretty decent paintings.
09:43:06  <Eddi|zuHause> charlie sheen makes funny comedy.
09:43:08  <MNIM> don't see 'em exhibited anywhere, though
09:43:17  <MNIM> eddi: now /that/ is debatable
09:43:21  <norbert79> MNIM: Despite nazism didn't start in the 30's I doubt this might be true in it's current form. Think about it, Martin Luther was born in 1483! WAY before any nazism present...
09:43:26  <Eddi|zuHause> but really he's a terrible person
09:43:53  <MNIM> norbert79... don't really see where luther came in the story?
09:44:06  <norbert79> MNIM: Where, the whole conversation started from it :)
09:44:13  <Eddi|zuHause> 1483 was even before the concept of "nationality" came around
09:44:14  <norbert79> MNIM: Scroll back
09:44:33  <Eddi|zuHause> really napoleon laid the foundation of nationalism in germany.
09:44:41  <Eddi|zuHause> it quite bite him in the arse afterwards
09:44:43  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Well, sorta
09:44:57  <MNIM> ahah
09:45:02  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: The real thing started much later, in it's that form
09:45:09  <MNIM> true. gotta love versailles, don't we.
09:45:11  <peter1138> hmm, i wonder what i did with my ambisonics patch
09:45:34  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: stop the on-topic talk!
09:45:38  <norbert79> lol
09:45:44  <norbert79> peter1138: DUCK! :)
09:46:07  <peter1138> quack?
09:46:20  <norbert79> no, I mean duck, the movement :)
09:46:31  <peter1138> i did it based on screen position
09:47:04  <Elukka> it's amazing how long many universities have been around
09:47:12  <norbert79> Yeah
09:47:13  <peter1138> so there's no vertical position
09:47:39  <Elukka> and they tend to have had continually occupied and maintained buildings through all that time
09:47:40  <norbert79> peter1138: Bah, you should use your imagination more often :)
09:47:45  <Elukka> medieval buildings that aren't ruins are a cool thing
09:48:04  <MNIM> medieval buildings that are ruins still can be a cool thing >.>
09:48:09  <norbert79> and afdter each war, we kept them rebuilding
09:48:23  <norbert79> well, not all of course
09:48:31  <peter1138> i assumed the viewpoint is in the sky
09:48:32  <Eddi|zuHause> not really that many medieval buildings around in the university
09:48:37  <peter1138> therefore everything is below you
09:48:39  <peter1138> so... no point
09:49:11  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: what if the creep sneaks up on you from behind?
09:49:21  <peter1138> this is not minecraft :(
09:49:22  <Eddi|zuHause> err... :p
09:49:43  <peter1138> hmm, minecraft with special audio. actually it already is, i think.
09:49:52  <peter1138> er
09:49:53  <peter1138> spatial
09:49:58  <peter1138> :S
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09:51:55  <Elukka> MNIM: yes, but surely intact buildings are even better :P
09:52:27  <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: the university buildings are more 1700-ish, so not really medieval
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09:52:41  <Eddi|zuHause> other buildings are more modern
09:53:08  <MNIM> elukka: true, but sadly, some of the most awesome buildings don't come in that variety any more
09:53:40  <Elukka> true
09:53:45  <Eddi|zuHause> the building where the computer science department is located is a 1920/30's barracks building
09:54:02  <Elukka> i think there's still late medieval buildings at some universities
09:54:11  <Eddi|zuHause> originally used by a german air division, later by the russian occupation
09:54:17  <Elukka> guild halls are another type of building that's often preserved
09:54:49  <Eddi|zuHause> structurally renewed after the russians left in the 1990's
09:54:57  <Elukka> "Mob Quad, in Merton College, Oxford. This group of buildings was constructed in three phases and concluded in c. 1315"
09:54:58  <Elukka>
09:55:34  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a funny story: the walls in the building are so thick that no sane WLAN could be set up
09:55:45  <MNIM> they look awesome, but it must be hell to work with a laptop there
09:55:47  <Eddi|zuHause> then they switched to frequencies that are reserved for military use
09:55:49  <MNIM> *ninja'd*
09:56:06  <MNIM> anyway, that's not *too* special
09:56:13  <MNIM> I mean, no sane wlan in my house either
09:56:18  <Elukka> haha
09:56:19  <Eddi|zuHause> and since then they worry that the americans could detect the use of these frequencies, and their maps showing that it's in a russian barracks territory
09:56:37  <MNIM> and that's a 70/80s house, not a medieval one
09:57:02  <Elukka> my wlan suprisingly works a fair distance outside
09:57:37  <MNIM> oh, ours does too, as long as a clear line of sight is maintained
09:57:55  <Eddi|zuHause> what's the usual distance? 300m-ish?
09:57:56  <MNIM> but as soon as you need to cross a wall, or worse, a ceiling *boom* no network
09:58:25  <MNIM> there's a school network some 200m away that I can get at better quality than mine
09:58:43  <MNIM> and that network is hidden behind a retirement home!
09:58:44  <Elukka> mine's your average cheap wlan router that sits on the third floor
09:58:49  <Elukka> works... 50ish meters outside
09:59:46  <MNIM> ours sits on the first floor in the meter cupboard
10:00:30  <MNIM> right next to a solid brick staircase with walls 30cm thick, below a strengthened concrete ceiling
10:01:40  <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: if you got 1.7, what's the resolution of that scale?
10:01:56  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: .0, .3 and .7
10:02:16  <__ln__> sounds... imperial
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10:02:40  <Eddi|zuHause> it's N, N+0.3 or N-0.3
10:02:51  <Eddi|zuHause> so in this case 2-0.3
10:03:28  <Eddi|zuHause> where 1-0.3 or 4+0.3 are illegal values
10:04:38  <__ln__> our scale is {1,2,3,4,5}, nothing else
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10:05:18  <__ln__> earlier we had {1,1+,1œ,2-,2,2+,2œ,3-,3}
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10:36:08  <appe> bah, always the exciting chemistry talk that turned out to be programing
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12:29:00  <Eddi|zuHause> where did you read chemistry?!?
12:31:12  <appe> a quick look at "< Eddi|zuHause> it's N, N+0.3 or N-0.3" though we were discussin nitrogen eletron configuration.
12:31:45  <Eddi|zuHause> did you know that freudian slips work for reading as well? :)
12:37:21  <appe> of course :)
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12:41:44  <appe> ill take electron configuration over ..imperial illegal scale resolution values..?
12:41:47  <appe> :D
12:49:43  <__ln__> appe: since when are course grades "programming"?
12:53:44  <Eddi|zuHause> when the course is "introduction to artificial intelligence"?
12:54:19  <__ln__> i've taken that course too
12:54:23  <Eddi|zuHause> although there was quite little programming involved. but programming in prolog drove some people seriously crazy :p
12:54:24  <norbert79> had something similar... Wasn't really exciting, since based on outdated information
12:54:28  <__ln__> did you have the green book?
12:54:47  <Eddi|zuHause> we did not have any green book
12:54:55  <Eddi|zuHause> isn't that written by gaddafi?
12:55:00  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: The same method is still used over there too? Christ, I thought... LOL
12:55:06  <norbert79> Khadafi... lol
12:55:29  <Terkhen> just the mention of prolog gives me a headache
12:55:33  <norbert79> Rather the green book, than the green mile
12:56:00  <Eddi|zuHause> hey, prolog is funny :)
12:56:10  <Eddi|zuHause> or rather "fun"
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12:56:43  <Eddi|zuHause> actually it's both, because the interpreter had some hitchhiker references :)
12:57:00  <norbert79> and Ubuntu has a Prolog compiler listed in the repos...
12:57:04  <norbert79> ew
12:57:05  <appe> __ln__: since the time i didnt know what on earth course grades are ;).
12:58:35  <Terkhen> prolog is completely alien to my way of thinking :P
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13:03:03  <Eddi|zuHause> actually you can easily make an almost-imperative program in prolog ;)
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13:03:49  <planetmaker> almost
13:04:11  <planetmaker> but you need to jump over many bear traps and through many rings
13:05:23  <Terkhen> and huge headaches :P
13:05:48  <planetmaker> but it was well-suited for writing a selection programme for the choice of courses, room-assignment etc in secondary school :-P
13:06:59  <norbert79> I think Prolog just hurts real programming skills. It's typical French: differs from everything.
13:08:07  <planetmaker> that in itself is hardly hurtful
13:08:50  <norbert79> Well, it's like teaching BASIC in 2011. It helps at least giving some idea about programing, but doubt it would be something useful to learn.
13:09:13  <Eddi|zuHause> "BT's copper cables have a material value of 50 billion pounds, on the stock market, BT has a value of 20 billion pounds. so the "service" of BT is worth -30 billion pounds"
13:09:36  <planetmaker> :-D
13:09:54  <SpComb> 'cept how much ripping those up would cost, mh
13:10:03  <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: sometimes learning a language like prolog or haskell can completely change your view about coding in "normal" languages
13:10:18  * SpComb wonders if residual value of copper > value of new fibre
13:10:33  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Right, but this is also a bit risky, since it can lead you to some completly false track, or improve your skills.
13:10:46  <orudge> SpComb: rip them all up and profit!
13:10:54  <orudge> (rip them up and replace them with fibre, that is)
13:11:46  <Pinkbeast> ... what if you account for fibre being less likely to be nicked by the chavousie?
13:12:07  <orudge> Pinkbeast: alas, they're stupid enough not to realise that fibre isn't copper, or so it seems
13:12:20  <orudge> at least in the UK, there are often reports of fibre cable breaks due to people trying to nick it
13:12:34  <orudge> without realising that it's basically worthless
13:12:37  <Pinkbeast> But the more fibre you install, the less true that will be.
13:12:49  <orudge> if you go about educating the thieves, maybe ;)
13:12:51  <norbert79> orudge: So does it happen in Hungary too. Last time some main line was cut by some morons, total loss of Internet around one area of Hungary.
13:13:18  <Pinkbeast> Even without education - in the extreme case where, say, there is _never_ copper to be found, even chavs will figure it out
13:13:37  <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: that's a case of bad topology
13:14:59  <Elukka> i remember an ICE-3 crashed with a freight train in the netherlands a while back due to thieves snagging some copper from the track circuit, then rewiring it so that everything looks like it works
13:15:07  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Those, who look for copper can be very ingenious finding the weak points, and then realizing no gain
13:15:10  <Elukka> luckily at low speed
13:16:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: aren't there supposed to be axle counters for this?
13:16:21  <norbert79> Elukka: In Hungary some copper-thieves rewired some power circuits, but then after a failure in the system the electician company eON also did some repairs, so they switched everything back, causing an overload in the systems. A block of flats lost their electrical gadgets
13:16:38  <Elukka> eddi, don't know about the details
13:16:40  <Elukka> trains crashed anyhow
13:17:16  <Elukka> it makes me wonder how easy that sort of thing would be to sabotage for most damage, were someone so inclined
13:17:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: that's a case of security-relevant infrastructure not being redundant enough
13:17:32  <Elukka> why hijack a plane if you can just make trains crash on their own
13:17:39  <norbert79> Elukka: it wasn't by the mistake of eON, actually it turned out, that the theives put the system to a different circuit causing the overload peak.
13:17:58  <norbert79> Elukka: Well, think on Spain 2005. Wasn't pleasent...
13:18:24  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Securing a system in the wide-open is much more difficult, than in-doors
13:18:43  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Especially when we talk about copper-thieves
13:18:54  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: afaik the DB has regular problems with such
13:19:01  <norbert79> as well
13:19:13  <SpComb> one of these days something it going to cause the cell phone networks to break (a proper CME event?) and then people will realize why we once had landlines
13:19:42  <norbert79> SpComb: According to EU law there is a minimum requirement of land-phones to be present in every town.
13:19:48  <orudge> SpComb: landlines are for ADSL, clearly!
13:19:49  <norbert79> SpComb: If I can recall well
13:19:50  <Eddi|zuHause> copper theft occures fairly regularly, i suppose
13:20:48  <Elukka> CMEs can very well hurt the electric grid as a whole too
13:20:52  <norbert79> Well, yet there are already land-lines present, which are based on the recent VoIP techniques too. I wonder how reliable those would be in case of a catastrophic event.
13:20:53  <Elukka> landlines could die too
13:21:31  <Elukka> "Telegraph systems all over Europe and North America failed, in some cases even shocking telegraph operators.[6] Telegraph pylons threw sparks and telegraph paper spontaneously caught fire.[7] Some telegraph systems appeared to continue to send and receive messages despite having been disconnected from their power supplies.[8]"
13:21:33  <Elukka> CME in 1859
13:21:37  <norbert79> back to old-school: Turn-phones :)
13:21:41  <SpComb> or someone breaks 3G chipers or whatever
13:21:47  <Belugas> hello
13:21:51  <norbert79> hey Belugas
13:22:06  <Belugas> hi norbert79
13:22:17  * SpComb doesn't know where he'd find a landline
13:22:33  <Elukka> our power grids are another thing that seem to me like they're not nearly redundant enough
13:22:50  <Elukka> *zzzap*
13:22:54  <Elukka> *civilization halts for a week*
13:23:10  <norbert79> would be interesting to see...
13:23:13  <Eddi|zuHause> the german power grid is said to be seriously underdeveloped
13:23:16  <norbert79> security would be the first problem
13:23:33  <norbert79> as soon the power is out, looting starts
13:24:08  * SpComb doesn't know what he'd do if he lost internet access for a week
13:24:10  <SpComb> don't even have a radio :)
13:24:11  <Eddi|zuHause> and with the "energy revolution" about to come, wind power is mainly generated in the north, while highest power consumption is happening in the south
13:24:33  <Elukka> not necessarily, there was a big power outage in a couple states in the US a few weeks back and i didn't hear of any looting
13:24:38  <norbert79> SpComb: Easy to try. Don't turn on your PC for a week
13:24:44  <Eddi|zuHause> aren't you like legally required to own a radio? :)
13:24:50  <Elukka> though it didn't last for a day
13:24:58  <SpComb> norbert79: phone counts
13:24:58  <norbert79> Elukka: US... That's the main point here :))
13:25:37  <norbert79> Elukka: Imagine the same around a different place, where the police-force is much weaker
13:25:48  <SpComb> and said big power outage in south california was apparently caused by some worker doing some maintenance work wrong :)
13:26:04  <SpComb> tripping some big power line and then chain-reacting to the entire state
13:26:16  <norbert79> Lovely design :)
13:26:19  <Elukka> it's amazing it's possible for one person to brick the the power grid by mistake
13:26:31  <SpComb> or rather, one failure to cascade
13:26:36  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: nah, those are "strategic" power outages so the power companies can present a reason why they need more money
13:26:48  <SpComb> I thought those ended with enron :)
13:27:02  <norbert79> Elukka: Since outsourcing, everything can happen. Just think on the "big-thumb" term coming from the financial sector
13:27:09  <SpComb> although I've heard some really bizarre stories about californian energy utility privtization
13:27:13  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, right :p
13:27:28  <SpComb> the regulations caused it to become some kind of self-feeding loop of madness
13:27:55  <Eddi|zuHause> california, the land of neo-liberal ultra-capitalism
13:28:36  <Eddi|zuHause> where the govenment is useless enough that nobody actually cares that they have no money
13:29:02  <Elukka> :D
13:29:22  <norbert79> I doubt this is limited to CA/US only :)
13:29:35  <Eddi|zuHause> but when an unimportant-in-the-grand-scheme country like greece runs out of money over here, all hell breaks loose
13:33:52  <Elukka> i like how our economy is built so that if it's not growing fast enough, it's in crisis
13:34:17  <Elukka> you'd think it'd be in crisis when it's shrinking
13:34:30  <Elukka> but no, it's in crisis when the rate at which it is growing is slowing down
13:34:40  <Pinkbeast> ... the minor detail that endless growth in a finite space is clearly impossible seems to have escaped us
13:34:51  <Elukka> indeed
13:35:22  <Elukka> it's either growing ever faster or crashing
13:35:24  <Elukka> no stable state
13:35:38  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no stable state in nature
13:35:47  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a myth
13:35:56  <Eddi|zuHause> things are growing until they fall apart
13:36:18  <Pinkbeast> I really do find this remarkable. We know perfectly well what happens when you put two bunnies in a big field of grass; you have more and more bunnies until all the grass is eaten, and then most of the bunnies die. But let the economy grow like the bunnies and it'll all be fine.
13:36:24  <Eddi|zuHause> the question is how often that happens
13:36:35  <Elukka> usually in nature that will result in some sort of state that is stable in the long term
13:37:28  <Elukka> take that time when organisms figured out how to photosynthesize
13:37:51  <Elukka> oxygen content in the atmosphere increased catastrophically and killed most everything
13:38:24  <Elukka> but then it settled down to around 20% oxygen
13:38:32  <Elukka> it fluctuates but it's stable enough to stay around roughly that number
13:38:40  <Eddi|zuHause> high oxygen level increases chance of a catastrophic fire outbreak
13:40:33  <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: but this fluctuation is the important part. natural systems are not clean sinus curves, like biology lessons suggest. it's growth until something triggers, and then it falls apart fast
13:42:48  <Elukka> sure, but it can keep going for a billion years or two
13:42:54  <Elukka> our market economy seems rather more precarious
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13:44:36  <Pinkbeast> A billion years> er but not without constant catastrophic events. Even good old Triceratops only made it to 3 million.
13:46:20  <Elukka> yeah but the atmosphere is still breathable
13:46:25  <Elukka> and in fact dinosaurs are still flying about :P
13:46:28  <Eddi|zuHause> oxygen levels have high correlation with ice ages, so 100.000-ish years is probably a more accurate frequency
13:47:21  <Pinkbeast> The atmosphere is still breathable> if you'll accept that as meaning nothing too bad has happened, the market economy hasn't collapsed because we still use money. :-)
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13:49:47  <Eddi|zuHause> my optical mouse has somehow problems with black surfaces
13:50:26  * Pinkbeast remembers the old Sun optical mice that only worked on a metal mousemat with a specific grid pattern
13:50:38  <Elukka> hmm. new railworks tomorrow
13:50:51  <Pinkbeast> Elukka> That was my thought too.
13:50:57  <Elukka> it doesn't seem to have what i so much wish it would, though... new playable content
13:51:30  <Pinkbeast> I'm really hoping they've made at least some interface improvements
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13:52:27  <Pinkbeast> In particular, it would be really nice if user-controllable junctions were shown in the F4 track guide, to avoid the usual problem where you basically have to guess where you're expected to start controlling the points.
13:53:01  <Elukka> i'd hope there was an easier way to identify tracks too
13:53:26  <Elukka> "Go to Templecombe Upper Yard 7"
13:53:36  <Elukka> have fun counting tracks and figuring out which label is which track
13:54:11  <Elukka> do tell me if you happen to find any interesting routes/scenarios
13:54:14  <Pinkbeast> Also to see the driver and fireman's controls _at the same time_
13:54:45  <Pinkbeast> UK train sim have quite a lot of download stuff, some of which is quite good, but they charge a once-off fee for access (not a lot IIRC
13:55:34  <Elukka> any particular ones to recommend? i remember browsing it once upon a time but didn't find much that's very finished
13:55:59  <Elukka> and sometimes i wish there was something else than UK stuff for a change, though i'll take what i can right now
13:56:08  <Pinkbeast> Hard to say, I haven't played since er about the time they announced Railworks 3
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13:57:49  <Elukka> hm.
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13:58:34  <Elukka> as for the official payware, i wish they'd make more complete expansion packs rather than mostly separate locomotives and stuff
13:59:30  <Pinkbeast> Complete new areas I think represent a vast amount of work... do you have a version with Newcastle-York included?
14:00:31  <Pinkbeast> I confess, I'd really like to see the North York Moors Railway in Railworks.
14:05:48  <Elukka> i do have newcastle-york
14:06:02  <Elukka> the black 5 scenario was pretty great
14:06:17  <Pinkbeast> Career Mode added a lot of scenarios, albeit with that silly scoring system.
14:06:47  <Elukka> luckily the scoring doesn't really matter
14:08:01  <Elukka> complete new routes are indeed a vast amount of work, but if they can make nearly a dozen routes for the game they can make one for an expansion pack
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14:48:48  <Player> hi
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14:51:00  <Elukka> hi
14:51:43  <Terkhen> hi Player
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