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00:05:33 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-89-240-242-199.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:06:33 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-057-081.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Server closed connection] 00:06:47 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-057-081.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 00:40:20 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-057-081.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 01:01:23 *** DDR [~DDR@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 01:25:51 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:c75:f72b:61bb:525] has quit [Quit: bye] 03:06:39 *** Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 04:16:31 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-11-161.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 04:43:36 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 04:56:01 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B75D10.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:56:17 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73774.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 04:56:20 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:38:45 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0a9627.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:09:17 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 06:17:23 <appe> __ln__: fantastic. 06:17:33 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has joined #openttd 06:31:49 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop] 06:44:14 <planetmaker> moin 06:59:40 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice4n2.emea.ibm.com] has joined #openttd 07:03:11 <Elukka> felt like modeling something technical, figured i'd do a train 07:03:22 <Elukka> turns out trains are complicated so all i got done is the underframe of a wagon :P 07:03:23 <Elukka> http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Art%20and%20stuff/wagonframe.png 07:10:56 <norbert79> Elukka: Why? It looks nice 07:11:09 <Elukka> just felt like modeling something 07:11:17 <Elukka> call it practice 07:11:28 <norbert79> Elukka: Needs some bit of improvemt though, even the rails are underlayed with crossbars a bit different 07:11:34 <norbert79> but in general it looks ok 07:11:50 <Elukka> it's all fictional, but i try to make it look kinda real 07:11:52 <norbert79> I couldn't even get this far, well, maybe some bit later, since I have never done any 3D yet 07:12:01 <norbert79> Only 2D vector 07:12:21 <Elukka> track's loosely based on http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Slab_track_at_St_Pancras.jpg 07:12:47 <norbert79> Oh, I see... Not regular then 07:14:17 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #openttd 07:18:54 <Elukka> most of my (meager) 3D experience involves spaceships :P 07:18:54 <Elukka> http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Art%20and%20stuff/a.jpg 07:19:26 <norbert79> Elukka: Not bad, not bad... Celestia Motherload must be your favorite then :) 07:19:54 <Elukka> isn't celestia more about celestial objects 07:20:01 <norbert79> Elukka: Not only 07:20:10 <Elukka> i'd love to fly it in orbiter but i'd have to learn how to do it 07:20:23 <norbert79> Elukka: No, you cannot fly them, but there are ton's of addons to Celestia 07:20:32 <Elukka> in orbiter you can :P 07:20:39 <norbert79> Elukka: Like Mir station, ISS, Sci-Fi spaceships 07:20:47 <norbert79> Well, I use Stellarium :) 07:21:02 <Elukka> but i don't even know how to use orbiter, nevermind how to develop addons for it 07:21:20 <Elukka> plus i'd have to finish the thing's textures... i've only done the nose module 07:21:20 <Elukka> http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Art%20and%20stuff/habitat.jpg 07:31:19 <planetmaker> Are you sure such module would not be rater covered by MLI? 07:31:29 <planetmaker> and I'd increase the solar panel size 07:31:45 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:32:02 <Elukka> they're radiators 07:33:01 <Elukka> it's got two gas core nuclear rockets, you can tap into them for plenty of electricity :P 07:33:25 <Elukka> i didn't want to make it shiny so i gave it a similar covering as soyuz 07:35:16 <Elukka> it'd probably be somewhat easy to plug in to orbiter of something if i bothered to learn how, since i worked out its mass, thrust and other relevant parameters 07:37:10 <Korenn> where should I get grfcodec these days? still http://www.ttdpatch.net/grfcodec/ ? 07:38:47 <planetmaker> no, that's eons old 07:38:50 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-022-181.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 07:38:55 <planetmaker> htpp://www.openttd.org/download-grfcodec 07:39:33 <Korenn> ah 07:39:34 <Korenn> thanks 07:39:45 <Korenn> my link is still the first hit when you google grfcodec :P 07:39:47 <planetmaker> sad to say, but: ttdpatch* websites are not maintained and outdated for years 07:40:00 <planetmaker> and we can't fix what you mentioned unfortunately 07:42:57 * norbert79 is listening to Glenn Miller - Moonlight Serenade (Miller's Tune) @ [256kbps] 07:43:06 <norbert79> aw, christ sakes 07:43:45 <norbert79> hah, managed... but why does it get into autoannounce when loaded? 07:44:41 <norbert79> Hah, fixed that too 07:50:08 <peter1138> www.ttdpatch.net/grfcodec links to dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/grfcodec 07:50:59 <peter1138> so ... could be changed? :p 07:51:33 <norbert79> peter1138: Sure on that? Last changed on Nov 28 2006 16:33 EST and the download is not pointing to there 07:52:13 <norbert79> peter1138: Only the first few lines are telling, that it's under different control 07:52:25 <peter1138> you read top-down, right? 07:52:26 <norbert79> peter1138: The main part still offers the grfcodec 07:52:35 <norbert79> peter1138: Not always, sometimes I focus on key words 07:52:58 <norbert79> peter1138: If results differ from I wanted, then I go through that in depth 07:53:08 <planetmaker> oh, it links there :-) 07:53:25 <planetmaker> well, that link is also still up to date 07:53:48 <norbert79> peter1138: Having a small link called "here" and underlined has less attraction, than the words: Windows: grfcodec_0.9.10-win.zip (136 kB) 07:53:48 <norbert79> Linux: grfcodec_0.9.10-lin.zip (79 kB) 07:54:12 <planetmaker> he, well, that grfcodec will get people quickly into trouble when trying more than trivial things 07:54:26 <norbert79> planetmaker: Exactly 07:54:27 <planetmaker> Korenn: what are you trying actually? 07:55:04 <Korenn> nothing special atm, updating a grf of mine to work with the patch I'm building 07:55:25 <norbert79> true, true... And where is the budweiser? :) 07:56:59 <planetmaker> Korenn: ok. I just wondered whether you might want to look at NML. Might or might not be worth when you update existing (new)grfs 07:57:18 <Korenn> oh yes, I definitely intend to 07:57:58 <norbert79> planetmaker: So basically NML is the new method on creating GRF-s. Long road since first backported GRF's understanding hexabytes and now having an own language built on it... 07:58:03 <Korenn> but I already had this set up from before, so it's easier just to add a couple more features than to rewrite the whole thing :) 07:58:05 <norbert79> planetmaker: Well done 07:58:25 <planetmaker> norbert79: nml is not really built on nfo 07:58:40 <norbert79> planetmaker: Yet the end result is the same 07:58:44 <planetmaker> it's simply a high-level implementation of the grf specs 07:59:00 <norbert79> planetmaker: It makes GRF's, right? :) 07:59:07 <norbert79> well, partly 07:59:08 <Korenn> NML still misses some features, iirc 07:59:10 *** plantain [~plantain@pl.anta.in] has left #openttd [] 07:59:41 <planetmaker> some 08:01:55 <planetmaker> norbert79: when I have the choice, I'll choose NML. I might be biased, but I see my time better spent thinking about the issue and not the syntax and whether I have to type 84 01 or 84 02 to get the proper error message. 08:04:11 <peter1138> down with newgrf! 08:04:18 <peter1138> we should use ini files... 08:04:23 <planetmaker> :-D 08:04:33 <planetmaker> ini is soo old. xml! 08:07:59 <norbert79> xml is rather way too problematic, let's use SQLLite based DB's 08:08:01 <norbert79> :) 08:14:42 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A64C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:21:58 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-119-234.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 08:24:52 *** heffer [~felix@hyperion.fetzig.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:27:22 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-11-161.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:29:09 <Terkhen> good morning 08:30:09 <Terkhen> squirrel scripts? :) 08:44:00 <planetmaker> moin Terkhen 08:47:25 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-057-081.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 08:48:36 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:49:13 *** DDR [~DDR@142.179.78.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:54:58 <Korenn> Terkhen: squirrel scripts instead of newgrf would make things a whole lot more consistent ;) 08:55:12 <Terkhen> I'm not so sure about that :) 08:55:41 <Korenn> it was suggested a couple of years back, but nobody wants to maintain two extension methods and blocking grf isn't an option :P 08:57:09 <peter1138> implement newgrf in squirrel... 08:58:50 <Terkhen> you could have that too if you create a new version of the NewGRF specs that includes all current features in a consistent way 08:59:16 <planetmaker> hm... "...two methods..." and "consistent"? ;-) 08:59:20 <Terkhen> with a language change you can hide some inconsistencies, but not all of them 08:59:23 <Terkhen> see nml for example 08:59:54 <planetmaker> nml does actually an awesome job hiding the pesky details 09:00:10 <Terkhen> yes, but some remain :P 09:00:28 <Terkhen> what I mean is: if you want true consistency, redesign everything from the start and make it feature complete 09:00:42 <planetmaker> yes 09:01:02 <planetmaker> which simply won't happen with the grfspecs 09:01:29 <planetmaker> at least I don't see that at all 09:01:52 <planetmaker> I might only see a slow re-write and amendment to more consistency 09:02:24 <Terkhen> some of the biggest inconsistencies could be taken out with a new version (for example the cb36 mess) but more than that is not worth the effort IMO 09:02:39 <Terkhen> besides, said version would increase the maintenance work 09:02:55 <planetmaker> yes 09:03:04 <planetmaker> but much less so than a completely new system 09:05:02 <Korenn> planetmaker: I mean consistency with respect to AI progreamming 09:05:55 <planetmaker> Korenn: it's completely different aspects of the game which hook into openttd completely different, too 09:06:00 <planetmaker> need to, actually 09:06:04 <Korenn> having one scripting language for all ottd extensability is also a form of consistency ;) 09:06:38 <Korenn> sure, but in theory there's no reason you can't define sprites and object properties in a squirrel script 09:07:27 <Terkhen> opening a script would be slower than opening a grf file 09:07:54 *** pjpe [ae5f3bfb@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 09:08:22 <Korenn> similarly, it's theoretically possible to script the UI look and feel, allowing people to 'skin' ottd 09:09:17 <SpComb> but why :( 09:10:21 <Korenn> making things accessibly is the way to making things look better - like when changing the fonts allowed artistic people to start experimenting and come up with nicer fonts for ottd. 09:10:28 <Korenn> accessible* 09:10:48 <peter1138> you could always change the font 09:10:52 <Korenn> Don't take my comments as lobbying btw, I'm just throwing ideas out there 09:11:52 <Korenn> peter1138: so not the point ;) 09:21:22 <Terkhen> you can change fonts already 09:21:27 <Terkhen> but only in openttd.cfg 09:27:35 <peter1138> personally, i <3 the gui 09:36:05 *** Pulec [~pulec@193.84.36.96] has joined #openttd 09:41:17 <norbert79> peter1138: So do I, I never could really understand the need for changing fonts. There was a temporary period, where the built in fonts didn't support special characters, but that's not true anymore 09:42:10 <peter1138> iirc it started off as a hack as a way for me to test the utf-8 support 09:42:23 <peter1138> long time ago though :p 09:42:30 <norbert79> peter1138: I adore that from you :)) 09:42:46 <norbert79> Since then no more issues 09:42:59 <peter1138> hmm? 09:43:29 <norbert79> You can still see some rant from me form back then when switched to UTF-8, and had been let down, when coming up, that there are no special characters in the default ones, and I shall just use a TTF :à 09:43:29 <norbert79> :) 09:43:47 <norbert79> was about 5 years ago, I guess 09:43:57 <norbert79> or earlier 09:44:14 <norbert79> So thank you for starting it getting it changed :) 09:44:34 <peter1138> i think i added some chars, maybe it was just an example grf though 09:45:14 <norbert79> Well, that started it solving that problem for me... Have spent some times for finding the right TTFs working around the problem back then, never really found the perfect ones 09:45:39 <peter1138> ttfs really need antialiasing to work right 09:45:47 <peter1138> bitmap fonts work as well though 09:45:47 <norbert79> Yes... 09:45:56 <peter1138> freetype supports a lot of formats 09:46:04 <norbert79> I just love the current default ones 09:46:28 <b_jonas> what I'd like is a system for graymap fonts 09:46:40 <norbert79> graymap fonts? 09:47:06 <norbert79> What's those? 09:47:22 <b_jonas> currently you either use bitmap fonts (one bit per pixel), or some rendering engine for vector fonts (true type, type 1, whatever) 09:47:27 <norbert79> I know PS fonts, binary types, TTF, OTF... 09:47:32 <norbert79> bitmap I mean 09:48:13 <b_jonas> I'd like a format and support for fonts where the characters are not bitmaps (each pixel is either black or white) but greymaps (each pixel has a value between, say, 0 and 255) 09:48:34 <norbert79> Ooh, so like bitmap fonts, but greymapped 09:48:35 <b_jonas> not that my bitmap font doesn't look well as is, but still :D 09:48:40 <norbert79> Where are such fonts used? 09:49:04 <peter1138> what's the advantage over scalable fonts with a decent renderer? 09:49:19 <norbert79> peter1138: wHICH CAN ALSO HAVE FIXED SIZES OF COURSE... 09:49:21 <norbert79> Eh, Caps Lock 09:49:46 <norbert79> peter1138: Well, I guess the size is less, since it's using fixed size, and no vector data 09:50:01 <norbert79> peter1138: Yet the grayscale map makes it a bit larger, than regular bitmap 09:50:06 <b_jonas> norbert79: nowhere, yet, because there's no format for them either 09:50:30 <norbert79> b_jonas: That's why I was puzzled never hearing of them, despite I am a typophreak :) 09:50:57 <b_jonas> it could be useful for screen in small sizes because the creator could draw them precisely 09:51:02 <peter1138> i think the filesize would be larger 09:51:09 <peter1138> and it would be only for a single size 09:51:11 <peter1138> so no use 09:51:19 <peter1138> (general purpose use) 09:51:24 <norbert79> b_jonas: But the built in font's are providing the same 09:51:26 <b_jonas> peter1138: true, but the computer is for me, so if I need larger filesize for a good font, well who cares 09:51:34 <norbert79> b_jonas: Can't really see the advanteges there 09:51:52 <peter1138> or you use a scalable font and render it to a greyscale (or with alpha) 09:51:55 <peter1138> which is... what we do 09:51:56 <norbert79> b_jonas: and bigger font's would just use way too much of a memory 09:52:09 <norbert79> peter1138: Exactly 09:52:17 <b_jonas> norbert79: you wouldn't use it for bigger sizes 09:52:20 <b_jonas> only for small size 09:52:32 <peter1138> well 09:52:32 <b_jonas> look, the bitmap font I'm using for IRC right now is 30K large 09:52:44 <norbert79> b_jonas: Disagree: 3270 terminals use bitmap based types, and some even are 20 pt sized 09:52:59 <b_jonas> yes, mine is 20 pixel high 09:53:00 <norbert79> b_jonas: x3270 under Linux uses such 09:53:25 <norbert79> b_jonas: that's why all fonts are gzipped when installing x3270 09:53:51 <b_jonas> norbert79: yep, mine is gzipped too, but RAM is probably more important than disk space here 09:54:22 <norbert79> b_jonas: I think both are equally important, yet I started with Commodore +4 backj then :) 09:54:37 <norbert79> so I am used to 60kb of RAM :)) 09:54:44 <b_jonas> I think greymap fonts don't exist because back when font formats were invented you wanted good fonts for a printer where greymap would make no sense 09:54:58 <b_jonas> and even a screen wouldn't handle greymaps 09:55:16 <norbert79> b_jonas: Well, printing started with character based printers, some printers, like IBM rpinters had varied font sized printers 09:55:26 <norbert79> Ball shaped printer-head 09:55:28 <b_jonas> that's true 09:55:31 <norbert79> later came matrix 09:55:48 <b_jonas> and daisy wheel and that chain stuff in cashier machines 09:55:54 <norbert79> exactly 09:56:00 <b_jonas> I've only ever seen ball shaped head on the internet 09:56:01 <norbert79> like old typewriters 09:56:08 <norbert79> I in real life 09:56:08 <b_jonas> I'd like to find a museum that shows a selectric 09:56:13 <norbert79> but way back in 1987-1988 09:56:24 <norbert79> My mother, where she used to work had one of these 09:56:33 <norbert79> it was a typewriter like, but isng the same method 09:56:34 <b_jonas> I've only just seen a telex machine in a museum this year 09:56:36 <b_jonas> it was amazing 09:56:54 <norbert79> Well, the one I was playing with was loud as hell :D 09:56:55 <b_jonas> two telexes working and triable, connected to each other, 09:57:08 <b_jonas> and one had a tape punch and tape reader working too 09:57:16 <b_jonas> I can't imagine how it can read the tape so quickly 09:57:18 <norbert79> Our local firefighting station (father used to be a firefighter, now retired) used the telex until 2002 09:57:24 <norbert79> pins 09:57:31 <norbert79> like good old card readers of IBM 09:57:46 <b_jonas> also, the keyboard physically locks half the keys so you can't acidentally press a key from the wrong mode 09:57:52 <norbert79> yes 09:57:59 <norbert79> was interesting once I played with it 09:58:05 <norbert79> couldn't understand a lot 09:58:06 <b_jonas> yes, it's a bit noisy 09:58:08 <norbert79> but I was amazed :) 09:58:30 <b_jonas> I've also just seen one of those large floppy drives exhibited somewhere 09:58:38 <norbert79> I still own a 5.25 09:58:44 <b_jonas> the one that looks like a 5 inch floppy drive magnified to twice the size 09:58:44 <norbert79> but there used to be the double of their size 09:58:50 <norbert79> exactly 09:58:52 <b_jonas> yes, that's the one 09:58:57 <norbert79> my high school used to have one of those 09:59:02 <norbert79> 1 floppy 09:59:04 <b_jonas> I've used 5 inch 09:59:27 <norbert79> I have used 360 Kb (commodore 1541), 720 kb HD small 3.5 inch sized, 1.2 MB, also formatted sometimes to 1.44 :D 09:59:33 <norbert79> good old formatting utils 09:59:43 <b_jonas> from the internet, it seems the large one is 8 inch size 10:00:37 <norbert79> I have started with a 8086 IBM PC back then. CGA card, CGA monitor, no HDD, plain mouse 10:00:40 <norbert79> IPXnet 10:00:42 <b_jonas> and its capacity goes up to 1.2 MB just like the 5 inch floppies 10:01:02 <b_jonas> norbert79: how much RAM? 10:01:10 <norbert79> base 650 K 10:01:12 <norbert79> I guess 10:01:15 <norbert79> or 512 Kb 10:01:35 <peter1138> 5ÂŒ" :S 10:01:38 <b_jonas> so you could play Prince of Persia on it 10:01:58 <norbert79> sure 10:02:00 <b_jonas> but not Commander Keen 10:02:03 <norbert79> STreet Rod 10:02:10 <norbert79> Zak Mackracken 10:02:13 <norbert79> North and South 10:02:20 <norbert79> and it's lunchtime, be back soon :) 10:04:14 <Elukka> a temperature sensor in my computer reads 4.2 billion celsius 10:04:22 <Elukka> i thought it was running hot... 10:06:03 <Terkhen> you should take your computer to a fusion reaction lab 10:06:42 <Korenn> norbert79: for me the reason to change fonts is pretty simple - when playing on an HD screen, the smallest font is barely legible 10:06:53 <Elukka> it certainly ought to be fusing 10:10:30 <Korenn> hm. I've got a custom cargo and I use prop 18 to set its substitute type to 'water', but the game displays it needs the cargo which is in the water slot, even thought that has set its substitute type to 'none'. derp? 10:12:01 <Korenn> the prop 18 doesn't appear to trigger at all so I guess my nfo is just bad :) 10:12:18 <Korenn> oh wait, I haven't upped the prop count :D 10:12:34 <planetmaker> you do use nforenum, do you? 10:18:12 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-77-176.as43234.net] has joined #openttd 10:22:01 <Korenn> yay, works 10:22:25 <Korenn> no, no nforenum. And this is the last nfo I'll ever write since I intend to switch to NML for any new stuff, so I won't bother :P 10:23:53 <planetmaker> well. nforenum would have told you about wrong number of properties... 10:24:07 <planetmaker> writing nfo w/o using that... is insane 10:25:13 <Korenn> this is a 22 line nfo that are all the same (bunch of cargos). it's really quite simple 10:26:33 <Korenn> and most importantly, I'm done now :P 10:28:04 <planetmaker> :-) 10:28:57 <Korenn> w00t, towngrowth challenge is functional! 10:29:27 <Korenn> plus it's a patch setting and the diff should be up to the trunk coding standard to boot. 10:29:40 <planetmaker> where? 10:29:56 <Korenn> I haven't posted it yet. will do soon 10:31:03 <planetmaker> did you have a look at http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Town_Control ? 10:31:14 <planetmaker> I see that your idea or old patch is linked there ;-) 10:32:14 <Korenn> all three of them :P 10:32:20 <Korenn> nope, hadn't read that yet 10:32:44 <Korenn> my approach would be a good intermediate solution until that approach is implemented 10:33:32 <planetmaker> of course I haven't seen anything of your current patch... it would fit also well within a prospective goal framework; I somewhen gathered unsorted thoughts: http://wiki.openttd.org/Planetmaker/v2#goal_.2F_script_framework:_definiable_via_.2Asome.2A_interface 10:33:54 <Korenn> I do have a TODO: add callbacks in my own list, which I found to be a bit too far out of my knowledge area 10:34:31 <Korenn> so perhaps Frosch can improve my approach and finish it up with callbacks. 10:35:07 <Korenn> ah, interesting. Yes, adding a goal was the second part of my spinoff back in the day 10:35:22 <Korenn> mind if I jot down some remarks on that page? 10:36:50 <planetmaker> go right ahead 10:40:48 <planetmaker> iirc with the proper enhancement of the town feature the whole town growth challenge could be covered by a NewGRF 10:42:31 *** MrSieb [~01Mr@chello062178128065.5.13.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:50:52 <Korenn> planetmaker: hm. storage of cargo shipped would be interesting though. 10:58:00 <Korenn> planetmaker: I added some points that I ran into while adding the towngrowth goal in my spinoff 11:06:43 <planetmaker> nice 11:14:42 <Terkhen> all amounts of cargo produced and accepted by towns are stored already in my subsidies patch, but I'm not exposing them to NewGRFs (yet) 11:17:39 <Korenn> that seems to be the dominant trend with all the towngrowth stuff, it's planned and/or designed, but not implemented. I have the advantage that I already played a game with it :D 11:18:28 <planetmaker> Korenn, by all means, please go ahead with that. 11:18:52 <planetmaker> Just make sure to discuss things, as it easily touches the core / the concept of how things are handled within OpenTTD 11:19:33 <planetmaker> it's a very nice thing. But to me it seems like one of those things which one writes once. And then re-writes for real :-P 11:19:42 <Korenn> exactly! 11:20:17 <planetmaker> you'll want feedback esp. also from frosch ;-) 11:20:22 <Korenn> Frosch's callback stuff is obviously the way to go. But this might very well do in the mean time, as it's simply an extension of the already existing code :) 11:20:56 <Korenn> I'm just now taking some screenshots to go with the forum post, then I'll upload it. 11:21:22 <planetmaker> I'm not sure we want an intermediate solution 11:21:35 <planetmaker> they tend to make it much more difficult to implement the real thing 11:21:44 <Terkhen> there were also some discussions regarding the problems with the newgrf town control approach 11:21:48 <Terkhen> ask me later, for now bbl 11:21:56 <planetmaker> yes. iirc frosch linked some of them 11:24:48 <b_jonas> I noticed openttd now doesn't show the "build statue" option for towns where I already have a statue 11:24:52 <b_jonas> that's a nice change 11:25:26 <norbert79> b_jonas: Was about time too... Was annyoing building two statues... I am no dictator having so many statues :) 11:25:53 <planetmaker> which will have to be proven ;-) 11:27:15 <norbert79> anyway I prefer supporting new buildings, that's less egoistic :) 11:31:35 <Pinkbeast> Also you can change your mind and demolish them later 11:33:01 <b_jonas> norbert79: a dictator wouldn't order to demolish a football stadium to build his statue in place. that would make him impopular. and that's what company statues often work like in ottd. 11:34:36 <norbert79> b_jonas: Well, I think you can still remember older times, even this action would be dealt of: "It's in the interest of the people removing the old, dangerous, bad shaped stadium, while we provide this new garden and such nice place for THE PEOPLE, with the statue of our well beloved leader" 11:34:48 <norbert79> b_jonas: Remarks me of current times a bit too... 11:36:11 <norbert79> b_jonas: It's a matter of perspective ;-) 11:36:43 <norbert79> b_jonas: How do you dare think otherwise? :D 11:36:47 <norbert79> ;-) 11:37:39 <b_jonas> Or maybe I just let the old stadium accidentally catch fire, the firefighters not get there in time, and the building damaged so heavily that it must be torn down. All at once in several towns. 11:37:54 <norbert79> b_jonas: Guess you saw "The wittness" as well then :) 11:56:09 *** michi_cc [~michi@dude.icosahedron.de] has left #openttd [] 11:56:09 *** michi_cc [~michi@dude.icosahedron.de] has joined #openttd 11:56:12 *** mode/#openttd [+v michi_cc] by ChanServ 12:26:42 <Terkhen> hi 12:35:21 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:6042:5825:b3c0:a159] has joined #openttd 12:35:24 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 13:07:54 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 13:39:01 *** JVassie [~James@2.30.129.177] has joined #openttd 13:43:37 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.177.9] has joined #openttd 13:45:45 <Elukka> http://www.marklin-users.net/upload/Community/Misc/plavnostruev/jc2.jpg 13:46:03 <Elukka> "I think million to million is a very comfortable number for that collection," said Noel Barrett, an appraiser on PBSâs Antiques Roadshow and president of Noel Barrett Antiques & Auctions." 13:46:17 <Elukka> it's rather bigger than that, but jesus christ 13:48:32 <Korenn> planetmaker: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=56955 13:48:48 *** JVassie_ [~James@86.17.13.33] has joined #openttd 13:49:17 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6B131.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:51:20 <Eddi|zuHause> recolouring: which colours to use? 13:51:48 <planetmaker> ty, Korenn. I'll read and look later. work work now 13:51:55 <Eddi|zuHause> if we use one of the magic palette animation colours, will those override the colour remap? 13:52:21 <planetmaker> eh? 13:52:35 <planetmaker> the animated colours are just (other) palette indices 13:52:45 <Korenn> peter1138: see link ^ :) 13:53:07 <planetmaker> thus if you remap 0x01 -> 0xanimated then the first palette entry would iirc become animated 13:53:13 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes, but does the palette animation work on raw colour index, or the remapped colour? 13:53:28 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, iirc the remapped 13:53:35 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i mean the other way around: 0xanimated => 0xnotanimated 13:53:37 <planetmaker> as animation is just swapping the displayed index colour 13:54:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean: we should use colours that likely won't be used on the real wagon 13:54:12 <planetmaker> iirc the animation is bound to the index. Not to the colour attributed 13:54:59 <planetmaker> animation is "display 0xF0, 0xF1, 0xF2, 0xF3 (in that sequence, then restart) 13:55:05 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, so we can use the magic animation colours, or the magic pink colours (what are those for anyway?= 13:55:30 <planetmaker> would be worth a try. I guess one could 13:55:42 *** JVassie [~James@2.30.129.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:56:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: can you do your half-done open wagon with magic pink filling (till tomorrow or so). needn't be totally polished, just some prototype to work on 13:57:18 <Elukka> waaaaaait 13:57:27 <Elukka> i indeed have a half done open wagon but i didn't talk about it or post any pics! 13:57:35 <Korenn> lol 13:57:47 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, if you can actually make a good suggestion on how to fill the pink entries... it might even be worth to amend the base sets 13:58:29 <planetmaker> or to amend the used palette actually... 13:58:47 <planetmaker> i.e. a 3rd palette like "extended" 13:59:08 <planetmaker> but I might be totally wrong in the assumption that we can just kick this pink 13:59:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: i'm prett sure you did 13:59:29 <Elukka> oh yeah you mean the tiny coal one? 13:59:43 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 14:00:21 <Eddi|zuHause> whatever, any open wagon will do 14:01:11 <Elukka> is magic pink one specific color or an entire line of colors? 14:01:35 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 14:01:44 <Elukka> http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Art%20and%20stuff/A10.png 14:01:48 <Elukka> was working on that sprite but it's pretty unfinished 14:02:05 <Eddi|zuHause> that'll do 14:02:46 <Elukka> (that pic isn't indexed i think) 14:03:48 <Eddi|zuHause> well, prepare it as good as you can, in an empty version, and a version filled with (different "shades" of) magic pink 14:04:03 <b_jonas> heh 14:06:02 <Elukka> i suppose it doesn't matter if lighting or position of the brakeman's cab is wrong for now? 14:08:00 <planetmaker> Korenn, I couldn't resist to read :-D 14:08:34 <Elukka> hm. does it matter whether it's bright or dark pink? 14:08:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: no, i need something to try out the recolouring, doesn't have to be pretty 14:09:38 <planetmaker> Korenn, generally, I think much more can be rather newgrf-controlled 14:09:48 <Elukka> hm. still not sure which one of the pinks i want 14:09:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: indices D7 to E2 14:10:01 <planetmaker> I'd probably try to make the town_effect an uint32 as a bit mask, which indicates which cargo has a town effect 14:10:03 <norbert79> Korenn: Just out of curiosty: so basically you are making the growth of a town/city depending on different resources, instead of stations/airports, etc 14:10:14 <norbert79> Korenn: did I understand this one right? 14:10:19 <Eddi|zuHause> (in the dos palette) 14:10:23 <Korenn> norbert79: it's in addition to the basic station demand, which is just pitiful 14:10:40 <Elukka> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/images/grfwiki/b/be/Dospal.png 14:10:40 <norbert79> Korenn: So as I assumed... Understand 14:10:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: even though they all look the same, treat them as if they were grayscale 14:10:45 <Elukka> is that the first row of reds/pinks there? 14:11:12 <norbert79> Korenn: Yet this still might look the growth silly, since if the growth is depending on 1 tons of steel it would look like they would depend on 1 ton huge SUV :) 14:11:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: the two rows combined 14:11:24 <Elukka> alright 14:11:27 <Korenn> planetmaker: I agree that most of it can be newgrf controlled. 14:11:32 <Eddi|zuHause> the ones that don't have a name 14:11:48 <Korenn> norbert79: the demand amount is based on population. So a bigger population requires more cargo 14:12:06 <norbert79> Korenn: Sure, but in start... :) 14:12:29 <Korenn> as always, the goal is not to be realistic, it is to be fun. 14:12:37 <norbert79> Korenn: it would not be wrong, just.. silly.. imo 14:12:37 <Korenn> try it, it's awesome 14:12:43 <Korenn> especially with friends 14:12:50 <norbert79> Korenn: Well, if there are GRF's available :)) 14:12:57 <Korenn> they're RIGHT there :P 14:13:03 <Korenn> (the grfs) 14:13:08 <norbert79> Korenn: Well done 14:13:13 <norbert79> Korenn: Will take a look 14:13:39 <norbert79> Korenn: Oh, wait, do I need the changed binary too? 14:13:50 <planetmaker> Korenn, probably the only thing which OpenTTD would have to handle itself is some way to judge the required amounts of a cargo if it has an effect 14:13:50 <Korenn> well, either the patch or the binary 14:14:16 <Korenn> planetmaker: I think the required amount is actually the most important one to change to a callback? 14:14:26 <norbert79> Korenn: Eh... So much for trying it on my Linux... Not in the mood of compiling... Oh well, home maybe 14:14:31 <planetmaker> The default probably should stay untouched (deliver one unit per month); The non-default could be set via newgrf, feature town. Modifyable via CB. Yes 14:14:38 <planetmaker> exactly :-) 14:15:18 *** JVassie_ [~James@86.17.13.33] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:15:23 <planetmaker> Korenn, I can't tell you out of my head. But callbacks are not really difficult to implement 14:15:26 <Korenn> I was considering a second patch setting where you can play with the demands (Any / Low / Medium / High) so that people can set them without using grfs 14:15:46 <planetmaker> Korenn, that would IMHO be a NewGRF parameter rather 14:16:01 <Korenn> But you don't HAVE to have a grf to play with this. 14:16:07 <planetmaker> mixing openttd and newgrf config for the same thing usually is not a good way :-) 14:16:31 <planetmaker> Korenn, I know. But I'm not sure that's a good way :-) - it then does mix very badly with newgrfs 14:16:54 <planetmaker> two things controlling the same requires much overhead, is confusing and double work 14:17:06 <norbert79> Korenn: If you change one thing in the game, especially key feature, you have to change each GRF too 14:17:12 <norbert79> Korenn: It's this simple 14:17:27 <norbert79> And many don't feel doing that 14:17:37 <norbert79> unless absolutelay necessary 14:17:55 <norbert79> like when slopes got allowed under bridges 14:18:10 <norbert79> sloped tiles I mean 14:18:22 <planetmaker> thus, IMHO, the correct approach is: town growth and acceptance is totally newgrf-controlled 14:18:31 <b_jonas> or when building tracks on terraced half-tiles got allowed 14:18:51 <planetmaker> the ending condition... would need other means, somehow on OpenTTD side 14:18:55 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: it's prolly enough just to have the | and / \ if all you're doing is testing 14:19:02 <planetmaker> which probably would lay the foundations for a goal framework 14:19:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: yep 14:20:18 <norbert79> Korenn: I understand, that you would love to extend, but there is the responsibility towards other developers too 14:20:41 <planetmaker> Korenn, are you prepared to make this a big project? 14:21:18 <Korenn> planetmaker: uh. I'm willing to discuss what the proper approach would be, assess how much work it is, and then have an open mind towards being able to do it :D 14:21:32 <planetmaker> :-) 14:21:37 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/2025/fabulous_test_sprite.png 14:21:39 <norbert79> Even plain graphic GRF-s need lots of testing :) 14:21:41 <Elukka> that one's also 5 lu 14:22:03 <planetmaker> from my POV it's actually two different and nearly separate projects: town growth / control. And game goals 14:22:03 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that's not magic pink 14:22:06 <Elukka> hmh. 14:22:14 <Elukka> ookay i thought it was that 14:22:18 <Korenn> To me though, the best features are the ones that work out of the box, and don't *require* a grf to play with. 14:22:31 <Korenn> planetmaker: yeah, this patch was to address purely and only the town growth bit. 14:22:33 <planetmaker> I'm not quite clear how game goals should work and there's probably not an established way it should be done 14:22:37 <norbert79> Elukka: Advise: if you use GIMP use the palette files, so the right colours could be applied to them 14:22:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: you must use the exact colour indices. just making it pink doesn't suffice 14:22:54 <planetmaker> Town growth otoh is somewhat agreed that it should be done via NewGRF 14:23:05 <Elukka> it's all exact colors from the dos palette 14:23:08 <Elukka> there's more than one pink though 14:23:18 <planetmaker> (that's where frosch's page comes from. We discussed this whole topic area a few months back) 14:23:20 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, they all look the same, but they are all different 14:23:37 <Eddi|zuHause> treat them as if they were grayscale 14:23:46 <norbert79> Elukka: use the pinkest pink 14:23:48 <Korenn> planetmaker: and a year ago, and a couple of years ago. The subject has been spooking around since my first spinoff implementation :) 14:23:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. darkest is D7, lightest is E3 14:23:53 <norbert79> Elukka: near green 14:24:00 <Elukka> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/images/grfwiki/b/be/Dospal.png 14:24:05 <Elukka> i used the first group of pinks from the top 14:24:16 <norbert79> that's the problem 14:24:52 <Elukka> it's the pinkest pink! besides that unlabeled neon pink but there's only one shade of that 14:25:01 <planetmaker> Elukka, yes 14:25:08 <planetmaker> but they occupy different palette entries 14:25:10 <norbert79> Elukka: Exactly, that's the transparency colour 14:25:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: use this image: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/File:TTD_Palettes.png 14:25:18 <Elukka> i dunno the names of the colors, photoshop doesn't show them 14:25:30 <Elukka> oh, thanks 14:25:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: it's relevant what position on the palette they have. not what they look like 14:25:52 <Elukka> yeah, i know, i just figured it was that row 14:26:12 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 14:27:33 <Elukka> erm... so it's that long row of solid pink? 14:27:49 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 14:27:59 <Eddi|zuHause> the ones that all look alike 14:28:03 <Korenn> planetmaker: if all town growth is newgrf based, then the base openttd.grf should have the settings to allow basic play using the settings. That's not a big addition though, so certainly feasible 14:28:12 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 14:28:14 <Elukka> okay so despite it being the same visible color when you recolor them they'll be different shades? 14:28:16 <norbert79> Just out of curiosity: that one row has one pink, but the colour code is the same for it, right? 14:28:20 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 14:28:30 <norbert79> ok, answered 14:28:37 <Elukka> bit of a bitch to get the colors right when they're all the same to me 14:28:41 <Elukka> shading i mean 14:29:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: you can change the palette colours temporarily, as long as you change them back before saving 14:29:14 <norbert79> well, grayscale could do the trick, though I assume the difference in the shading is the same for all the pinks, like for regulars 14:29:20 *** JVassie [~James@86.17.13.33] has joined #openttd 14:29:30 <Yexo> Korenn: the baseset grf should have no town growth setting at all 14:29:37 <Yexo> openttd should include proper default values in the binary 14:29:59 <Elukka> okay, the way i do this is i have color swatches of all palette colors that i pick colors from... when i'm done i convert it to indexed 14:30:00 <Yexo> including it in the baseset would mean that if the values in the openttd extra grf and the extra grf from opengfx differed you would have created a desync 14:30:01 <Korenn> Yexo: planetmaker was just saying how that shouldnt be the case? 14:30:05 <Elukka> if i do that here it'll convert all to the same pink 14:30:13 <Elukka> so i guess i have to work with an indexed image or something 14:30:30 <Yexo> Korenn: I didn't read that, but than I disagree with planetmaker 14:30:39 <norbert79> Elukka: Or first create them and then play with the pixels... 14:31:16 <planetmaker> uhm. I didn't talk about base grfs 14:31:19 <Elukka> it just converts all pixels to the nearest color in the palette when i convert to indexed 14:31:32 <planetmaker> not in the context of town growth 14:31:42 <Korenn> planetmaker: no, but you did talk about everything to do with town growth should be in grf 14:31:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: yes, you must do that on the indexed image, there is no way around that 14:31:53 <planetmaker> Korenn, yes. Newgrf 14:32:03 <planetmaker> which is NOT a baseset 14:32:06 <Korenn> But town growth should also be possible using the default game. 14:32:20 <Elukka> okay i'm just gonna do something quick and dirty 14:32:20 <planetmaker> A NewGRF can be used by anyone... 14:32:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: it'd be handy if you had layers in the indexed image 14:32:21 <Korenn> which implies there should be a grf in the distro that sets them 14:32:29 <Elukka> yeah it would 14:32:34 <Elukka> but photoshop doesn't let you have layers on an indexed image 14:32:34 <planetmaker> I guess there we disagree then, Korenn 14:32:40 <supermop> Eddi/Elukka is there a wiki page somewhere abut using those pinks? 14:32:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: switch to gimp 14:33:19 <Elukka> mmmmmaaaybe 14:33:21 <Elukka> not right now though 14:33:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: this would definitely be a showstopper feature for me. 14:33:33 <planetmaker> towngrowth should be a NewGRF thing 14:33:40 <Elukka> did they finally make it so that it's one window instead of a separate window for everything 14:33:42 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: other than "don't use those pinks"? 14:33:45 <Elukka> that was a real pain in gimp 14:34:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: i once heard they'd allow that, but not entirely sure 14:34:16 <supermop> is there a legitimate use for them? I had assumed no, but if so it would require some documentation 14:34:40 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: i have no idea 14:35:07 <planetmaker> Korenn, a somewhat long-standing principle has been: "if it can be changed by NewGRFs, then it should be changed by NewGRFs" 14:35:22 <Terkhen> Korenn: I consider what I'm doing now (removing the town effect "hack" for subsidies) a requisite for town control, regardless of its implementation 14:35:23 <Korenn> planetmaker: the default gameplay is already greatly improved with towngrowth added, so writing it in a way that forces you to a) write a separate newgrf and b) include it before you can use the feature *at all*, is bad. 14:35:42 <Terkhen> after I'm done, towns will "know" what cargo they produce and accept for all cargo types 14:36:10 <planetmaker> Korenn, yes, NewGRFs can greatly improve gameplay in many aspects 14:36:22 <Terkhen> and town control will need a separate newgrf / goal script / whatever file is decided to be used 14:36:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: does that include the production of industries within the town? 14:36:42 <planetmaker> Note, that the other part, the goal judgement. Which should *not* be part of the NewGRF 14:36:50 <Terkhen> if it can be customized by users, OpenTTD should not include different options 14:36:54 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: you can already do that :P 14:37:02 <Terkhen> via town persistent storage 14:37:05 <planetmaker> That would need some goal script (framework?) or mechanism inside OpenTTD 14:37:08 <Terkhen> for subsidies... only house production is stored 14:37:35 <planetmaker> But that should be generic enough to be used on the cargos which are defined to have a town growth effect (as given by the current NewGRFs, if they're present) 14:37:41 <Korenn> For the immediate future, I think adding town growth on its own has a far bigger chance of getting into trunk than the entire town growth challenge idea. Big patches tend to get shot down ;) 14:38:01 <Terkhen> in this case it's the contrary actually 14:38:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: i mean, for example food doesn't care about whether it is delivered to a town house, or to an industry in the town 14:38:17 <Eddi|zuHause> so same should be true for production 14:38:29 <Terkhen> a patch that only implements a way of doing things will not be included, you will need a patch that allows to implement *anything* 14:38:30 <planetmaker> Korenn, well... I'll argue against this short-sighted solution. 14:38:51 <planetmaker> as it'll make the solution as I tried to outline MUCH more difficult. Especially on the NewGRF front 14:38:52 <Korenn> I didn't say my patch should go into trunk as-is 14:38:52 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: storage of "town effect" cargos delivered remains the same 14:39:20 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:39:24 <norbert79> Elukka: Using a specific colour from a Palette under GIMP is available too, so that shall not stop you using GIMP for your sprite editing 14:39:25 <Yexo> Korenn: it's not so much "big patches" as well as "big patches that haven't been properly maintained, don't adhere to coding style and are not split up in managable parts" that are shot down 14:39:37 <Korenn> I'm just saying that both town control and goals are something that I don't think are worth implementing now. As that'll take way too long 14:39:56 <planetmaker> Korenn, and that's exactly why I asked you whether you're ready to go a long road / take on a big project 14:40:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: so there won't be an industryset-agnostic way of getting the total amount of all cargos produced in or around the town? 14:40:09 <planetmaker> I'll love to see this feature. But I'll love to see it properly 14:40:36 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: no, for subsidies I need a house-only storage 14:40:51 <Korenn> Yexo: exactly, and I consider the town growth the first manageable part. Which in and of itself already improves gameplay. The rest of the 'big' project can wait till later 14:41:16 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: maybe it would make sense to include what you want as a town NewGRF variable for town control, but it's outside of the scope of the subsidies patch 14:41:18 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/2026/fabulous_test_sprite.png 14:41:27 <Terkhen> the changes done in the subsidy patch should pave the road for what you want anyways 14:41:45 <Korenn> planetmaker: I'm interested in helping / investing time in the other bits as well, but not as one big feature to be added at once, since that is way too chancy at getting rejected on small parts. 14:41:54 <Korenn> Terkhen: which will be in trunk when? 14:41:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: thanks, you have the empty version as well? 14:42:28 <norbert79> Elukka: Ah, nice work... 14:42:32 <Yexo> Korenn: that's a good approach 14:42:53 <Yexo> you'll always have to take the other parts into account to make sure you're not blocking them or making them significantly more difficult 14:43:03 <planetmaker> ^^ 14:43:22 <Elukka> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/2027/test_empty.png 14:43:25 <Korenn> well sure, but thinking about and actually implementing are two wildly different things 14:43:26 <Terkhen> Korenn: as soon as I spend time to finish it 14:43:43 <Terkhen> lately I haven't been coding much :) 14:44:38 <Korenn> Forgive me for sounding sceptical, but originally (years and years ago) I was holding off on doing a new towngrowth challenge 'until the new map array was done'. See where that led ;) 14:45:35 <Terkhen> I can't think of any other small parts; town storage is already done, subsidies are halfway done 14:45:47 <b_jonas> new map array? har har har 14:45:47 <Terkhen> what is left is discussing how much control should NewGRF town control have 14:46:02 <Terkhen> as it is thought that it could collide too much with other aspects of the game 14:46:13 <planetmaker> Korenn, then start working on a goal framework 14:46:18 <planetmaker> nothing blocks that. 14:46:21 <Korenn> no thanks. 14:46:28 <planetmaker> And it's a vital part for a any challenge 14:46:38 <Korenn> it's not interesting without the town growth. 14:46:42 <Korenn> motivation for coding is important :P 14:46:51 <planetmaker> as you need some way to determine whether something was reached... 14:47:01 *** Lakie [~Lakie@host81-141-98-105.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #openttd 14:47:02 <planetmaker> ehm... but you need *some* way to determine if a goal was reached? 14:47:12 <Korenn> it doensn't need a goal at all to be fun 14:47:15 <Korenn> doesn't* 14:47:20 <planetmaker> be that now town growth or year reached? 14:47:33 <Korenn> try the current build - it's already much more interesting to develop towns 14:47:46 <planetmaker> hm, ok. I thought you wanted a goal attached to that. 14:47:51 <Korenn> eventually, yep 14:47:54 <Korenn> but initially, no 14:48:25 <planetmaker> then start with the generic callbacks which drive town growth 14:48:30 <Korenn> it doesn't need it to be fun, so if leaving that part out makes the addition smaller and more likely to include, then I go for that :) 14:48:33 <planetmaker> make town growth newgrf-able 14:48:35 <Korenn> yeah, callbacks I can look at 14:48:45 <Korenn> is already on the todo list 14:50:19 <planetmaker> return values of interest would probably include like "do nothing", "build road", "build new building", "replace building" 14:50:31 <Korenn> derp? 14:50:40 <planetmaker> maybe even building type (as specified in the house newgrf specs) 14:50:45 <Korenn> the first callback would be an amount check per cargo / town effect 14:51:02 <planetmaker> ? 14:51:26 <Korenn> why would I even touch the growth algorithm? 14:51:38 <planetmaker> because that's what town growth is about? 14:51:45 <Korenn> no, not really 14:51:50 <Korenn> that's the execution of growth 14:51:59 <Korenn> my patch is about the decision to grow 14:52:05 <Korenn> it doesn't touch the growing at all 14:52:25 <planetmaker> :-) what do you think a "check town growth" callback would do? 14:52:26 <b_jonas> right, so all they need to communicate is a few town variables that nudge the normal town growth algorithm? 14:52:42 <planetmaker> it decides on "shall I grow and if so how" 14:52:58 <planetmaker> the question is just which variables a newgrf then uses to make that decision 14:53:12 <planetmaker> and those variables - as I understood terkhen - are then all already there 14:53:14 <Korenn> planetmaker: I disagree. all that is needed is a check to see if it meets the growth demands. Which is a numerical check. 14:53:15 <Terkhen> b_jonas: what is needed is to take a decision regarding "what should NewGRF town control be able to do" 14:54:05 <Terkhen> planetmaker: the current specs only have a "decide town growth rate" callback 14:54:48 <planetmaker> Terkhen, yes. I'm suggesting to enhance specs there :-) 14:55:24 <planetmaker> I mean... you want town control. 14:55:39 <Terkhen> you might want to discuss that with Alberth, for him the current ones are getting too much in the way of OpenTTD code already :P 14:55:39 <planetmaker> Thus you need control via newgrf-able callback whether to grow. And if so, how to grow 14:56:04 <Korenn> planetmaker: that's totally a different feature ;) 14:57:18 <planetmaker> Korenn, I don't think it's a good idea to introduce yet another three specific town growth effects 14:57:33 <peter1138> bah 14:57:35 <planetmaker> it should become something generic which expands the current ones 14:57:43 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 14:57:47 <planetmaker> but... Terkhen knows what he does there :-) 14:57:56 <Korenn> Sure, that's doable. but control over how towns grow is not related to that issue 14:58:18 <Terkhen> why three specific town growth effects? 14:58:24 <Korenn> you're talking about the actual growth algorithm. Major focus change 14:58:37 <Korenn> Terkhen: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=56955 14:58:57 <Korenn> Terkhen: besides water / food / goods I've added 3 more to satisfy in towns 14:59:38 <b_jonas> is passengers included in any of them? 15:00:01 <Korenn> nope 15:00:08 <Terkhen> hmm... 15:00:10 <Korenn> passengers are a product of doing well at town growing 15:00:27 <b_jonas> valuables are, too 15:00:37 <b_jonas> even accepting food is, to a small amount 15:00:39 <Korenn> b_jonas: how so? they're industry related 15:01:01 <Korenn> big towns produce more passengers and mail, not more other cargoes 15:01:01 <b_jonas> accepting 15:01:20 <b_jonas> small towns don't have enough houses to accept food 15:01:36 <b_jonas> and normally only very large towns have banks so smaller towns don't accept valuablesa 15:01:39 <Korenn> that depends on the climate and/or industries around it 15:01:48 <b_jonas> of course, a grf can change this 15:01:50 <Korenn> you can fund a bank / water tower 15:02:07 <b_jonas> you can fund those, but you can't fund houses to accept food 15:02:22 <planetmaker> Korenn, it needs to be generic. Another person will want 7 or so. Or maybe all cargos to have an impact on town growth 15:02:38 <planetmaker> generalizing this will become even harder by adding three further special cargos 15:02:47 <Terkhen> one of the things I'm doing before subsidies is fixing how towns display demand 15:03:03 <Terkhen> right now, only the first cargo with a given TE is displayed (IIRC) 15:03:07 <planetmaker> just make "town growth" a cargo property (it is probably) 15:03:21 <Terkhen> planetmaker: that is handled via Town effects (TE) 15:03:23 <Korenn> planetmaker: I agree with the first statement, but not the second. What I'm doing doesn't make changing it more difficult in the least 15:03:28 <planetmaker> Terkhen, yes 15:03:42 <planetmaker> Korenn, of course it does 15:04:09 <planetmaker> it doubles the amount of variables one has to deal with. And gives 20x the amount of combinatory work 15:04:11 <Terkhen> Korenn: I think that including code that will be removed for sure later is spending time badly 15:04:15 <Korenn> how so? all it does is add entries to what is essentially a hard coded table. replacing the table is not made harder by adding more entries 15:04:30 <Terkhen> both for the coder and the reviewer 15:04:30 <planetmaker> Korenn, exactly. "hard coded table" 15:05:01 <Terkhen> should towns display all cargos with a given TE? for example: "town requires food1, food2 and food3 to grow" 15:05:04 <planetmaker> I'm talking about "make this table newgrf-able 15:05:16 <planetmaker> Terkhen, imho yes 15:05:27 <planetmaker> at worst it displays 32 cargos. So it be 15:05:29 <b_jonas> also, isn't funding banks restricted to inside large towns? 15:05:41 <Terkhen> b_jonas: only temperate banks, and you can change that via NewGRFs 15:05:49 <Korenn> planetmaker: saying adding these makes things harded to change later makes no sense. Currently there are lots of checks for food / water. Adding some more checks there does not make removing them later any more work. except hitting the delete button a couple more times. 15:06:32 <Korenn> Terkhen: probably it should have an entry per TE, and show all potential cargos that satisfies them. something like "requires food1 or food2 or food3" 15:06:49 <Terkhen> that's exactly what I was thinking of coding 15:07:19 <Terkhen> I stopped with subsidies after realizing that the GUI should be fixed before I made changes to how those values are handled internally 15:07:20 <Korenn> So you're talking about newTownEffect then? 15:07:34 <Terkhen> no, just about displaying cargos with a given town effect properly 15:08:02 <Korenn> But there's only 3. And doing that now will only make changing it later harder (quote planetmaker *tongue in cheek*) 15:08:37 <Terkhen> what changes will it need later? 15:08:56 <Korenn> Well, my patch wants 6 different categories for growth 15:09:11 <Korenn> doing that in a newgrf would mean a way to define new town effects, right? 15:10:45 <Terkhen> yes 15:10:48 <planetmaker> Korenn, why does it need 3 new town effects? 15:10:59 <Terkhen> adding new town effects should be allowed IMO 15:11:06 <Korenn> planetmaker: otherwise you can't demand that people deliver 3 more types of cargo 15:11:38 <planetmaker> true. But then it shouldn't be hard-coded :-) 15:11:47 <norbert79> lol 15:12:12 <Korenn> so newTownEffect will need a grf spec definition 15:12:25 <planetmaker> that's what I try to argue the whole time 15:12:28 <Korenn> I forsee months and months of bickering -_- 15:12:51 <b_jonas> real life months? in-game months? 15:13:02 <planetmaker> ingame months :-) 15:13:06 <Korenn> real life. some people are very passionate about anything to do with grf specs 15:13:06 <planetmaker> that's acceptable ;-) 15:13:35 <planetmaker> Korenn, so? Who wants to argue it, if it's a sound spec? 15:14:03 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice4n2.emea.ibm.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving for now. Bye everyone!] 15:14:06 <planetmaker> just define a sane way how newgrfs can define a new towneffect. And the rest is implementation detail 15:14:08 <Yexo> Korenn: currently the cargo spec is coupled quite tightly to industry newgrfs. Do you already see a way to create town grfs that are not depended on specific industry newgrfs but can still change the cargoes? 15:14:30 <Terkhen> what changes will displaying cargos with a given town effect need later? I'm interested on that, maybe I forgot something 15:14:34 <Terkhen> and I hate to do work twice 15:14:55 <planetmaker> Terkhen, I guess a required and an already delivered amount 15:15:03 <Yexo> <Korenn> real life. some people are very passionate about anything to do with grf specs <- that's mostly a certain guy who wants to keep ttdpatch alive 15:15:03 <planetmaker> two or more cargos could have the same TE 15:15:05 <Korenn> Terkhen: it will need iterating over a dynamically allocated list of town effects 15:15:08 <Yexo> we don't pay him much attention here 15:15:09 <Korenn> other than that, probably none 15:16:14 <Korenn> so yeah, a newgrf town effect with a callback to define the demand formula would work wonders 15:16:19 <Terkhen> that will not need changes to my display code 15:16:25 <planetmaker> Korenn, exactly :-) 15:16:29 <Terkhen> I changed town effects so you can iterate through them 15:17:01 <Terkhen> so the only change will be "instead of doing TE_FOOD and TE_WATER, iterate through all town effects that actually affect growth" 15:17:08 <Korenn> planetmaker: BUT, you need town effects for the base game to work 15:17:17 <Korenn> so you can't force it to be newgrf only 15:17:31 <Korenn> Terkhen: \o/ 15:17:43 <Terkhen> you also need vehicles, but they can only be modified via newgrf :P 15:17:48 <planetmaker> Korenn, there are defaults, of course 15:18:01 <planetmaker> but that's no issue. Every newgrf aspect has defaults 15:18:04 <planetmaker> or nearly every 15:18:16 <Korenn> so if we have defaults, that means we can also add defaults to have interesting town growth in the base game 15:19:18 <Terkhen> we could also add trams to the default game, but we didn't because that would add additional code that serves no purpose, since they can be added via NewGRF too 15:20:04 <planetmaker> ^ what Terkhen said 15:20:32 <Korenn> That's a good example - I personally think the base game would be better if there was a tram grf included in the distribution 15:21:46 <Korenn> I've recently introduced a bunch of people to ottd, and they can't make heads or tails from the newgrf stuff until you give them a thorough explanation. Which means that when they download it for themselves, they miss out on key game play features that would enhance their experience. 15:22:05 <Korenn> but that's ofcourse an entirely different discussion 15:22:13 <planetmaker> Korenn, but that's an entirely different thing. ^ :-) 15:22:20 <Korenn> hah, ninjad you! 15:22:31 <Korenn> where should I jot down notes for newTownEffect? 15:22:46 <planetmaker> Indeed it can be argued that there can be a default selection for NewGRFs, if nothing else for that feature was selected 15:22:54 <planetmaker> But it'd still be NewGRF, thus not part of the core 15:23:00 *** Beengalas [~Beengalas@nl105-254-205.student.uu.se] has joined #openttd 15:23:07 <b_jonas> the directional buttons for building depots can't be assigned to key shortcuts yet, right? 15:23:32 <planetmaker> put the notes maybe to the town control page of frosch? 15:23:34 <b_jonas> nor is there a drag-drop button for depots so you build a depot by dragging two squares instead of by selecting a direction. 15:24:12 <Korenn> related to this, I also think newCargo prop 18 makes no sense - it's some arbitrary number that map back to the town effect enum. If those becomes objects, it would be better to just refer to the TownEffect id. 15:25:51 <b_jonas> I wonder, how hard would it be for the railway signal tool to highlight which half of the tile it would select, sort of like the railway build tools do? 15:26:14 <Korenn> why is http://account.openttd.org/en/signup in finnish? 15:26:30 <__ln__> Korenn: it isn't 15:26:40 <Terkhen> Korenn: I'm thinking that maybe town effects could get an action 0 entry, the IDs listed there now would be the defaults 15:26:51 <Terkhen> I can't think of any properties besides "name", though 15:27:06 <__ln__> Korenn: that's clearly estonian. 15:27:46 <Korenn> __ln__: okay, point to you. but why :P 15:28:05 <Terkhen> TrueBrain: http://account.openttd.org/en/signup <- 15:28:30 <planetmaker> it's English for me? 15:28:55 <Korenn> Terkhen: name would be what's presented if there is no cargo attached to it? 15:29:22 <Terkhen> now that you mention it... I can't think of an use for name either :P 15:29:23 <b_jonas> it shows up as mixed English and some other language to me 15:29:53 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0a9627.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 15:29:55 <Terkhen> maybe modifying OpenTTD for taking into account any possible ID would be enough 15:30:08 <Terkhen> that change would come along with NewGRF town control, as it is useless without it 15:30:13 <Korenn> Other things TownEffects need: - whether or not it is a growth demand (there are sure to be other effects in the future?) - callback for demand calculation 15:30:28 <Terkhen> then the game would need a way to know "what town effects should be displayed" 15:31:19 <b_jonas> but I don't think it's Estonian 15:31:33 <b_jonas> wait, it could be 15:31:47 <b_jonas> okay, I guess it is a mix of English and Estonian 15:31:55 <__ln__> b_jonas: well what does the first field say? 15:32:01 <TrueBrain> Terkhen: http://account.openttd.org/en/signup 15:32:06 <TrueBrain> (returning the favour :P) 15:32:19 <b_jonas> __ln__: "Kasutajatunnus:" 15:32:27 <Terkhen> I assume it appears in english for you :P 15:32:32 <__ln__> b_jonas: ok, and that is indeed estonian. 15:32:36 <TrueBrain> nope, it doesnt 15:33:32 <Terkhen> Korenn: NewGRF town control would allow you to base town growth in anything, not only on cargos with town effects 15:34:06 <Terkhen> you could increase growth in towns with an odd number of houses, for example :P 15:34:17 <TrueBrain> Terkhen: what I meant to point out, I dont mind being highlighted, at least also say why 15:34:36 <TrueBrain> Terkhen: as I am not in a habbit reading ... 30 lines of text in the hope to discover why I got highlighted :) 15:34:48 <Terkhen> so I'm not sure if showing town effects always would be a good option, other people might want to show only their custom text 15:35:16 <Korenn> Terkhen: but by demanding town control in newgrf you're upping the ante for required implementation and code impact 15:35:18 <Terkhen> hmmm 15:35:54 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-233-64.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 15:36:53 <planetmaker> Korenn, requiring it as NewGRF reduces actually the code impact. And greatly enhances versatility 15:37:08 <planetmaker> from an openttd code base pov 15:38:20 <planetmaker> Terkhen, maybe a separate tab like vehicle detail view? 15:38:49 <Korenn> in the long run, sure. But there is no such thing as newgrf town control yet 15:38:52 <planetmaker> and only a summary list of "blah requires this month: blubber, garnix, something and irgendwas 15:38:56 <planetmaker> w/o texts or so 15:39:07 <planetmaker> Korenn, which is exactly what _you_ want though 15:39:30 <planetmaker> that's you only task, if you want town growth / control. It's the same thing 15:39:38 <Korenn> no, what I want is newTownEffects, with a callback to set the amount of that cargo group required 15:39:58 <planetmaker> which is a subset of town control 15:40:21 <Korenn> The rest isn't interesting 15:40:24 <Korenn> to me ;) 15:41:00 <planetmaker> well. You know now which way is interesting for us ;-) 15:41:26 <planetmaker> (the newgrf way) 15:42:08 <planetmaker> yes, it comes with the cost, that the coding work needed now for you to get your desired result is more 15:42:20 <planetmaker> it comes with the price that it has a good chance of hitting trunk ;-) 15:43:15 <planetmaker> the direct path is not always the quickest ;-) 15:43:30 *** planetmaker [~planetmak@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has left #openttd [... und tschÃŒÃ!] 15:43:38 *** planetmaker [~planetmak@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 15:43:39 *** mode/#openttd [+o planetmaker] by ChanServ 15:43:39 <planetmaker> hmpf 15:44:05 <planetmaker> sometimes window focus upon mouse-over is not the best thing ;-) 15:44:36 <Terkhen> TrueBrain: noted, sorry :) 15:45:40 <Terkhen> planetmaker: I'm not sure 15:45:40 <Terkhen> that's why I'm doing subsidies, I'm not sure about anything regarding town control :P 15:45:55 <planetmaker> :-) 15:46:21 <planetmaker> it's also needed for TAI ;-) 15:46:42 <planetmaker> currently I consider that newgrf broken as towns grow endless roads once they reached a certain town 15:46:49 <planetmaker> *size 15:47:23 <planetmaker> it's tricky terrain, I agree :-) 15:47:33 <planetmaker> it's very near openttd's core ;-) 15:47:45 <Yexo> wrt TAI you might as well regard openttd broken that it grows roads while it can't build any houses 15:48:12 <planetmaker> well. But that's a valid state also for small towns. 15:48:29 <planetmaker> where building a road will lead (again) to a solution to be able to build houses 15:48:43 <planetmaker> as such solving that on the openttd-side of town growth is rather tricky 15:49:03 <Elukka> ...google translate turns fleischmann to 'flesh of man' 15:49:46 <Terkhen> IIRC OpenTTD tries to build houses first, and after that roads 15:49:58 <supermop> i prefer Meat Man 15:50:07 <Terkhen> maybe it should not build any more roads after N successful roads built 15:50:20 <Terkhen> that should be a small fix :P 15:51:13 <b_jonas> Terkhen: would that mean I can completely stop a town growing by removing a lot of roads? 15:51:53 <Terkhen> no, that would mean that after the town builds N roads without being able to build a house it will stop trying to build roads 15:52:05 <Terkhen> it will still try to build houses 15:52:36 <b_jonas> bit if I remove most roads, it can't build houses, because usually it only wants to build houses next to roads 15:52:51 <Eddi|zuHause> TaI should not mark towns "villages" when the game thinks they're "cities". 15:52:54 <Terkhen> maybe it should check the cause of not being able to build houses... and only build roads if the cause is "lack of space" 15:52:55 *** Lakie [~Lakie@host81-141-98-105.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:53:09 <b_jonas> though of course, you can already stop a town from growing by removing all its roads and houses 15:53:15 <b_jonas> so that might not be such a big problem 15:53:28 <planetmaker> in any case: in the absence of a goal framework which could in principle also have access to town control I still think they're a good addition to NewGRFs 15:56:42 <b_jonas> planetmaker: if you read that line up to just before "town", it sounds like marketing-dpeach 15:57:08 *** Hyronymus [~chatzilla@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 16:04:02 <b_jonas> I wonder how I should place depots in this line 16:04:32 <b_jonas> if I put depots at only one place, I think trains will try to turn back to it before the station farther to it 16:04:56 <b_jonas> if I make trains always enter the depots in each round, that wastes too much time 16:06:51 <b_jonas> maybe I should put a place with depots on both sides of the line 16:07:03 <b_jonas> so that trains never have to turn back 16:13:42 <Eddi|zuHause> use "service at" orders 16:14:20 <Eddi|zuHause> and waypoints right before the depot 16:14:57 <Eddi|zuHause> so <waypoint>-<signal>-<switch off mainline>-<depot>-<switch back on main line> 16:15:00 <b_jonas> hmm 16:15:07 <b_jonas> why not just "service at nearest" orders 16:15:09 <Eddi|zuHause> and "go via waypoint" "service at depot" 16:15:37 <b_jonas> so I have the layout like station A -> depots -> station B ------> A 16:15:51 <b_jonas> and make the order A -> service nearest -> B -> 16:16:06 <b_jonas> then they won't try to service themselves on the B->A route so they won't turn back 16:16:08 <Eddi|zuHause> that should work, somewhat 16:21:17 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:25:17 <b_jonas> my problem with "service at" orders is that a single depot could be too few 16:25:52 <b_jonas> though that could be solved by using a conditional order to a waypoint and a service nearest order 16:29:15 *** Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 16:33:15 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-77-176.as43234.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:34:35 <b_jonas> is there a page on the wiki describing "Property Maintenance" costs? 16:35:05 <b_jonas> Ah, http://wiki.openttd.org/Economy#Property_Maintenance 16:35:09 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-057-081.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 16:38:00 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 16:43:44 <b_jonas> should I combine eGRVTS and Long vehicles? 16:45:10 <planetmaker> nothing which could stop you. You'll simply have MANY vehicles then 16:46:48 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-77-176.as43234.net] has joined #openttd 16:48:35 <b_jonas> also, other than the Japanese Landscape, what GRFs are there that replace landscape (like farms)? 16:48:45 <b_jonas> I like Japanese Landscape, but I'm willing to try others 16:49:25 <b_jonas> okay, now I'm trying out these grfs by starting games in later years just to see what vehicles I get 16:51:29 <Rubidium> mars replacement? 16:52:40 <b_jonas> Rubidium: er no, not something drastical like that, sorry 16:53:24 <planetmaker> I guess you don't count ogfx+landscape as on the landscape side mostly removes the grids (and allows arctic climate) 16:53:59 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #openttd 16:54:38 <b_jonas> yes, I wouldn't count that one 16:57:05 *** Pulec [~pulec@193.84.36.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:57:32 <b_jonas> I'll also experiment with the map generator settings a bit 17:01:55 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 17:02:24 <b_jonas> terrain type, smoothness, variety distribution, sea level 17:02:53 * planetmaker usually plays with lots of water. medium .. .high variety distribution, mountanous 17:05:07 <b_jonas> what smoothness? 17:05:14 <V453000> hilly, rough is great 17:05:18 <b_jonas> what does smoothness even do? 17:05:23 <V453000> with variety distribution off 17:05:27 <planetmaker> rough :-) 17:05:43 <V453000> well, see for yourself what does it do :) I recommend to turn distribution off so it is visible better 17:05:45 <planetmaker> smooth is kinda boring 17:07:22 <V453000> yeah, smooth sucks :( 17:11:32 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-89-242-64-168.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 17:12:30 <Rubidium> I guess I should run a server with non-smooth, no foundations and limit terraforming to one bit a tick ;) 17:12:44 <Rubidium> that'll be fun! ;) 17:12:55 <planetmaker> :-D 17:14:13 <planetmaker> I guess the "no foundations" setting is clearly one which could do w/o a GUI option (dunno whether it has) 17:14:30 <V453000> hehe 17:14:40 <V453000> just like bridges over diagonals etc eh :P 17:15:52 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fd321.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 17:18:17 <planetmaker> quak :-) 17:18:28 <frosch123> moin :) 17:19:30 <planetmaker> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=56955 <-- we should make up our mind, frosch123, how we want town control accessed and addressed 17:20:37 <frosch123> well, food has definitely on a higher priority :) 17:22:34 <planetmaker> yeah... food probably has a quite high frosch-effect ;-) 17:22:53 <planetmaker> enjoy :-) 17:33:59 <Terkhen> :P 17:35:52 <peter1138> hm 17:36:26 <frosch123> planetmaker: it only had that effect for the first half of my life up to now, till then it has more a broad-effect 17:36:49 <planetmaker> haha :-) 17:36:53 <planetmaker> I know that well :-) 17:38:23 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 17:39:27 <peter1138> hmm 17:41:10 <Korenn> b_jonas: personally, I've reached the end of 'interestingness' in the terrain generator. I now play using a preselected heightmap, which is then randomly filled with towns and industries 17:42:28 <b_jonas> Korenn: I'm not going for interestingness, I just want to test what settings I prefer so that I'm not stuck with a bad landscape for a hundred in-game years 17:42:50 <Korenn> *nod* 17:42:51 <b_jonas> I decided I wanted fewer industries than in the previous game, so I set industries to Normal (it was High) 17:43:05 <b_jonas> but I still need to decide the rest of the settings 17:43:14 <Korenn> on our daylength-10 server, it becomes even more important that the map is nice, cause you'll be stuck with it for 3 weeks :P 17:45:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r23015 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files in 2 dirs): 17:45:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: persian - 2 changes by Peymanpn 17:45:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 3 changes by Rubidium 17:45:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: slovak - 29 changes by klingacik 17:45:37 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: welsh - 25 changes by kazzie 17:48:38 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-77-176.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:48:53 <peter1138> hmm, what easy to access windows have a horizontal scrollbar? 17:49:09 <TWerkhoven> map? 17:49:23 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.237.235.128] has joined #openttd 17:49:29 <Wolf01> evenink 17:50:25 <frosch123> peter1138: use a savegame with a depot in the middle of the screen and a long train in it 18:03:21 <Korenn> Terkhen: hm. if the growth rate is dependent on a callback like defined by Frosch, there isn't enough feedback to the player. Feedback on how much you still have to transport in order to reach the town demands is crucial. Any ideas on that? 18:04:02 <frosch123> Korenn: replace "player" with "ai" in that sentence :) 18:05:18 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.177.9] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:06:17 <frosch123> yay, i have been around here for 4 years. and all that time herzogdexter kept on quitting and rejoining 18:06:42 <peter1138> :p 18:07:17 *** pjpe [ae5b4c80@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 18:10:43 <b_jonas> in the UKRS2 set, when do I need the break van? 18:11:02 <b_jonas> the cars don't seem to mention whether they have continuous brake 18:13:52 <Korenn> frosch123: I'm reading up on http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Town_Control - I don't see a var to get population for the _current_ town? 18:14:06 <Korenn> ah, 82 18:14:14 <Korenn> nvm, I didn't scroll all the way down :P 18:14:41 <frosch123> Korenn: 80+x variables are already present 18:14:52 <frosch123> they are inherited from ttd, that's why they are so weird 18:14:57 <Korenn> ahhhhhh ok 18:15:04 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 18:15:22 <frosch123> 40 and 41 are also already present 18:15:29 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-77-176.as43234.net] has joined #openttd 18:15:46 <frosch123> though i am not sure what ttdp guy was so braindead to add 41 18:16:31 <Korenn> I'm trying to map out what the minimal implementation requirements would be to do my patch http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=56955 entirely in newgrf 18:16:52 <Korenn> why is 41 braindead? having the index seems useful to me 18:17:25 <frosch123> for what? as some kind of random value? 18:18:12 <Korenn> yeah, town index modulo some value to reliably select some towns for other calculations 18:20:12 <Korenn> frosch123: a variable to get the amount of a certain type of building might also be useful? 18:20:22 <frosch123> no 18:20:26 <Korenn> though that's not stored ;) 18:20:36 <frosch123> the type of buildings are completely newgrf defined 18:21:00 <frosch123> and a main goal of the towngrowth spec was to not tie houses and industries and towngrowth together 18:22:03 <Korenn> ah, right - all the industry related vars are through cargo 18:22:43 <frosch123> note that there was the idea of shared newgrf registers for inter-newgrf communication. but we skipped implementing it to avoid trouble with stupid grf authors 18:23:57 <planetmaker> :-) 18:24:02 <Korenn> frosch123: the 'get amount of industries that accept / produce a cargo' seems nice, but shouldn't that one should also exist for town houses? since those can also determine acceptance 18:24:07 <planetmaker> newgrf authors only make our life a PITA :-P 18:25:20 <Korenn> I can imagine a grf set that adds petrol stations as buildings, and if those are present, requires petrol to be delivered to the station in order for the town to grow 18:25:34 <Korenn> delivered to the town* 18:25:51 <planetmaker> petrol stations as houses already exist in ecs newgrfs 18:26:03 <supermop> and swedish houses 18:26:11 <planetmaker> really? do they accept petrol there? 18:26:27 <supermop> they do iff you are playing with firs 18:26:36 <planetmaker> hm. I never noticed :-) 18:26:36 <Korenn> planetmaker: I know, which makes my example better :P 18:26:46 <planetmaker> And I thought I knew my favourite house set ;-) 18:26:46 <supermop> they dont show up if you are not 18:27:23 <supermop> they look nice, so i load firs with .se houses even if i am playing with no industries 18:27:54 <planetmaker> Korenn: as frosch hinted at: it might be nicer to have a separate town growth newgrf which just checks that petrol is delivered *somewhere* within that town's influence. But yes, makes perfect sense 18:28:05 <frosch123> Korenn: i do not know how to implement such a variable effectively 18:28:20 <frosch123> the acceptance of houses is a bit fishy :p 18:30:17 <Korenn> and iterating over the map can't be nice ;) 18:31:26 <frosch123> iirc michi_cc's cargodest had some quadtree-like cache of tile-acceptance 18:31:28 <Korenn> planetmaker: right, but in this scenario you don't want to limit growth if there isn't a possibility of delivering petrol in that town 18:31:51 <planetmaker> of course. But from the newgrf side that's no issue. 18:31:58 <planetmaker> one just checks whether petrol is a valid cargo 18:34:45 <Korenn> planetmaker: but petrol stations may or may not be present in the town, or may or may not be yet introduced in time 18:35:17 <michi_cc> It has, even if it is no quad-tree, but just a simple 2d array :) (see http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/git/yacd.git/commitdiff/d2d24d29b44189e32a6e27c978cf5d36cd224c6e and the previous commit) 18:35:18 <planetmaker> yes. All that is in principle available to newgrfs. 18:36:02 <planetmaker> nice, michi_cc :-) 18:37:19 <michi_cc> Next commit adds the same for industries respecting industry tiles 18:46:03 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4d08e6e8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 18:53:19 *** mib_Kogut [d586afe1@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 18:53:23 *** mib_Kogut [d586afe1@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [] 18:53:49 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:55:35 <planetmaker> http://imagebin.org/178364 <-- :-D I lost somewhere some baseset sprites :-) 19:01:25 <planetmaker> exactly 100 sprites of tropical houses ;-) 19:07:08 <SmatZ> :D 19:07:39 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:08:08 <V453000> what is that pm :D 19:08:16 <andythenorth> guten abend 19:08:17 <b_jonas> tropical? 19:08:38 <b_jonas> aren't those trees with snow? 19:08:58 <__ln__> http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,15449204,00.html 19:09:13 <planetmaker> b_jonas: it's arctic climate ;-) 19:09:30 <planetmaker> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=28633&p=975090#p975090 <-- as laugh I posted them here ;-) 19:09:49 <peter1138> erm 19:10:11 <planetmaker> hello andythenorth 19:15:23 <b_jonas> I'll try a game with UKRS2. I'll see how it goes. 19:15:33 <b_jonas> Also, my company color won't be red this time. 19:16:07 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 19:20:03 *** DDR [~DDR@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 19:25:35 *** heffer [~felix@hyperion.fetzig.org] has joined #openttd 19:50:03 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 19:52:58 <Korenn> andythenorth: have a look at http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=56955 , it works really well with FIRS :) 19:53:37 <andythenorth> ooh :) 19:54:01 <andythenorth> so building materials get a purpose 19:54:28 <Terkhen> frosch123: but we have town persistent registers :P 19:54:43 <Terkhen> I still wonder what would happen if we allowed write access 19:54:58 <Terkhen> I think that my mind is not able to conceive the madness that would come 19:56:52 <Terkhen> and the patches posted by michi_cc are inside my subsidies queue too, they are IMO a good solution for that too :) 19:57:16 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:57:18 <Korenn> andythenorth: yep! and alcohol too 19:57:21 <frosch123> sometimes it is better to not try what might happen :p 19:57:22 <Korenn> which is a bitch to create 19:57:28 <Korenn> so nicely challenging :) 20:01:58 <Priski> I'm trying to invite some local friends for some LAN party and OpenTTD, man would that be great 20:02:19 <Priski> too bad I have no laptop :( 20:02:46 <planetmaker> carry desktops ;-) 20:03:06 <Terkhen> oooh, old school lan parties 20:03:08 <Terkhen> I miss them 20:03:16 <planetmaker> :-) 20:03:17 <Terkhen> carrying my computer in a suit case 20:03:23 <b_jonas> why does it say that my "4 Horse Carriage" (from eGRVTS I think) can't go to a bus station? 20:03:28 <b_jonas> what kind of station does it want? 20:03:33 <Terkhen> b_jonas: articulated vehicles can only go to drive through stations 20:03:35 <supermop> drive through 20:03:40 <planetmaker> b_jonas: it's an articulated vehicle. Use drive-through 20:03:48 <b_jonas> ah 20:03:49 <b_jonas> thanks 20:04:03 <b_jonas> does "articulated" mean it bends in the middle? 20:04:23 <b_jonas> apparently it does 20:04:27 <b_jonas> okay 20:04:46 <andythenorth> see 20:04:51 <andythenorth> told you that was a pita 20:04:51 <andythenorth> :P 20:04:53 <planetmaker> b_jonas: it means a vehicle consisting of several parts 20:04:59 <andythenorth> lets eliminate drive-into road stops 20:05:02 <andythenorth> they're just trouble 20:05:12 <b_jonas> no, let's keep them 20:05:40 <Terkhen> fix road vehicle movement! 20:05:58 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 20:05:59 <Korenn> gief multiple tile sized road stops 20:06:06 <Priski> planetmaker: I could carry my desktop, I have wireless net and easy to carry LCD screen but my desktop.... 20:06:10 <Korenn> with newgrf support 20:06:22 <Priski> Dang thing weight like hell 20:06:49 <Priski> has almost 1cm thing steel plate in front 20:06:56 <Priski> thick 20:07:21 <planetmaker> :-D 20:07:51 <Korenn> Priski: your neighbourhood prone to drive by shootings or something? 20:08:00 <planetmaker> I call that "bullet proof", Priski ;-) 20:08:25 <b_jonas> now why is it walking at 1 km/h only? 20:08:50 <Korenn> b_jonas: turn off realistic acceleration for road vehicles 20:08:57 <Priski> no it has lock so all buttons etc can be locked so you cant fiddle anything if thing is bolted to ground 20:09:13 <b_jonas> Korenn: ah 20:09:16 <b_jonas> thanks 20:09:36 <Priski> like small door, I can't seem to remeber words to describe this thing properly 20:09:56 <b_jonas> why do I have to turn it off? 20:10:04 <b_jonas> and yes, that worked 20:10:13 <b_jonas> now it's going normal speed (25 km/h) 20:10:27 <Korenn> b_jonas: because horses currently have 0 hp 20:10:32 <Korenn> which breaks the formula 20:11:20 <Priski> Korenn: well no, altough one guy was arrested at park with full sized katana some time ago 20:11:27 <Terkhen> b_jonas: use eGRVTS2 20:11:34 <Terkhen> it has fixed values for realistic acceleration :) 20:12:52 <Priski> damn where is my finnish to english dictionary software, I cannot form proper sentences without it :( 20:13:20 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-027-007.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 20:13:28 <b_jonas> Terkhen: does that exist? where? 20:14:06 <Terkhen> b_jonas: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=969342#p969342 20:14:11 <Terkhen> it is the second beta actually 20:14:20 <Terkhen> I tried it for a bit and I didn't notice any obvious problems 20:14:50 <b_jonas> thanks 20:14:54 <Terkhen> Zephyris is looking for more testing so it will help him if you play with EGRVTS2 and give him feedback about it :) 20:14:56 <andythenorth> why can't we kill drive-into stops? 20:15:44 <Terkhen> because some people find them useful 20:15:51 <Terkhen> why do you need to kill them? just ignore them 20:15:55 <b_jonas> Terkhen: but taht says "trucks only" 20:16:06 <b_jonas> I like drive-into stations 20:16:12 <Terkhen> b_jonas: yes, you will need a different set for buses 20:17:17 <andythenorth> they're a source of false bugs 20:17:21 * planetmaker finds drive-into stops very useful 20:17:29 <andythenorth> but they're broken 20:17:33 <planetmaker> rather I want articulated vehicles using them, too 20:17:38 <andythenorth> they can't 20:17:38 <b_jonas> what symmetry does ottd require for railway cars in grfs? 20:17:54 <Terkhen> they can be too long for drive-into stops 20:17:57 <planetmaker> I use them surely half of the time 20:17:59 <Terkhen> so that's not an option 20:18:13 <planetmaker> I know that they can be too long... 20:18:24 <planetmaker> but they can be too long for dtrs, too 20:21:02 <V453000> town does grow when I transport only mail, right? 20:22:13 <planetmaker> you just have to service some stations 20:25:08 <V453000> that is what I thought :) thanks 20:26:00 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fd321.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:34:11 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 20:36:30 <Terkhen> good night 20:38:56 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 20:39:04 <Wolf01> 'night 20:39:07 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.237.235.128] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 20:53:53 *** yorick [~yorick@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl] has joined #openttd 20:54:34 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 20:54:48 * andythenorth has some truck issues 20:55:07 *** KritiK [~Maxim@176.14.251.153] has joined #openttd 20:57:25 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 20:58:35 *** Hyronymus [~chatzilla@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:19:23 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 21:26:03 <Eddi|zuHause> # nur leider, leider sagt dir keiner deiner Neider bescheid 21:26:12 <Eddi|zuHause> # wie geht es weiter, weiter, hast du erstmal alles erreicht 21:29:25 <planetmaker> eh? 21:31:09 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-022-181.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 21:33:19 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-233-64.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:39:53 <b_jonas> I'm trying a ship to truck feeder service 21:39:59 <b_jonas> of iron ore 21:40:19 <b_jonas> I'm not sure whether it's a good idea, but we'll see 21:43:22 *** weirdy [~weirdy@31.205.35.121] has joined #openttd 21:43:31 <weirdy> Hey ho, I have yet another question 21:44:43 <weirdy> I started a multiplayer game and created two companies, however, it would appear I can't merge them together using the share's system... 21:45:02 <weirdy> Is there any other way to merge two companies? 21:45:25 <planetmaker> bancrupt one and buy it then 21:46:27 <b_jonas> heh 21:47:10 <weirdy> Do you know why this feature was removed, planetmaker? 21:47:35 <Yexo> it was never there 21:47:50 <weirdy> oh 21:47:50 <Yexo> not in multiplayer anyway 21:47:58 <weirdy> my bad then 21:48:51 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:53:21 *** z-MaTRiX [~matrix@2a01:270:dd00:7701:1337:1337:1337:1337] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:59:13 <weirdy> When does a company get offered for sale? 21:59:35 <planetmaker> 4 consecutive starts of a qarter at a bank balance < 0 21:59:43 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:46 <Yexo> wasn't it 3? 21:59:51 <Yexo> and I'm not sure if it actually works in MP 21:59:54 <planetmaker> sold on the 4th ;-) 22:00:03 <planetmaker> iirc 22:00:03 <weirdy> I'm in an SP game now 22:00:03 <Yexo> ah, right :) 22:03:53 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:04:01 <weirdy> Thanks again guys 22:04:07 *** weirdy [~weirdy@31.205.35.121] has left #openttd [] 22:11:54 <Korenn> Yexo, buying bankrupt companies works just fine in MP :) 22:16:13 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 22:21:51 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.177.9] has joined #openttd 22:25:01 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-77-176.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:25:01 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-89-242-64-168.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:41:26 *** z-MaTRiX [~matrix@index.linuxsecured.net] has joined #openttd 22:46:49 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 22:49:08 *** perk11 [~perk11@188.32.29.238] has joined #openttd 22:55:43 <Eddi|zuHause> pirate party now at 9% in federal election polls 22:56:09 <Eddi|zuHause> and 4th largest party 23:02:05 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has left #openttd [] 23:12:33 <michi_cc> The Bundestrojaner is probably not to their disadvantage... 23:13:48 <planetmaker> :-) 23:14:02 <planetmaker> its our all disadvantage :-( 23:15:42 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4d08e6e8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] 23:17:23 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: the interesting part about this is that the polls were taken before this trojan incident 23:18:48 <planetmaker> the sad thing about this news is actually: the existance and capabilities of that trojan are no surprise at all 23:19:05 <michi_cc> Next poll might see an even higher number then. And of course we get a nice clash between justice ministry (FDP) and interior ministry (CDU/CSU) as well. 23:21:35 <Eddi|zuHause> if there were elections now, neither "side" would have a majority 23:21:55 <planetmaker> "ZÃŒnglein an der Waage" 23:22:13 <michi_cc> Really no surprise at all, seeing that basically everybody can buy trojan frameworks like Zeus together with many customizations for specific targets (online banking, password theft etc.) 23:22:22 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B73774.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 23:22:27 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73774.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:22:32 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause 23:24:10 <planetmaker> time for bed. good night 23:33:10 *** Beengalas [~Beengalas@nl105-254-205.student.uu.se] has quit [] 23:33:38 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A64C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:55:06 *** JVassie [~James@86.17.13.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]