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Log for #openttd on 12th October 2011:
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01:50:51  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: it's quite annoying that the error log in the ticket throws 404 after a new version was compiled
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02:51:00  <supermop> do i need to provide separate bridge sprites for road and rail?
03:03:12  <planetmaker> yes
03:03:58  <supermop> but the rail ones can automatically handle railtypes?
03:05:32  <supermop> can i provide a bridge sprite with say a blank deck, and then provide a road deck or rail sprite as well that gets layered above the bridge background but behind the foreground?
03:07:55  <supermop> drawing an isometric caternary curve is hard...
03:10:21  <planetmaker> you unfortunately cannot do that.
03:10:35  <planetmaker> railtypes work. As their track is overlayed
03:10:50  <planetmaker> I'd nevertheless *draw* it the way you suggest
03:10:56  <supermop> yeah
03:11:05  <planetmaker> and then just export different layers with different road / track as different sprites
03:11:11  <supermop> and i only get 6 tiles?
03:11:21  <planetmaker> possibly. dunno
03:12:01  <supermop> i sont see a bridge with more than 6 in the sprite sheet for opengfx infrastructure
03:12:09  <supermop> sso i am guessing so
03:14:00  <planetmaker> yes... I guess you have to check the newgrf specs, though
03:14:44  <supermop> if i want to ask nicely for more features for bridges, should i show a mock up of what i would like to do, or should i just work with what i can for now?
03:16:05  <planetmaker> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Bridges#Bridge_Layouts
03:16:39  <planetmaker> supermop: it's generally know that the newgrf specs for bridges quite lack of what one would really want there
03:16:44  <planetmaker> *known
03:16:54  <supermop> ouch
03:16:56  <supermop> hmm
03:17:10  <planetmaker> not that it can't be changed. But no-one did so far
03:17:25  <supermop> this isnt going to fit in any of those layouts
03:19:09  <planetmaker> yes... bridges are a seriously under-developed newgrf feature
03:19:25  <planetmaker> patch(es) to change that are quite welcome
03:19:44  <planetmaker> I fear that doesn#t help you, though
03:19:59  <supermop> id need something that was like _0(2453)1_ where () repeats,
03:20:12  <supermop> rather than () being only 2 tiles
03:20:44  <supermop> i wonder if i can sortt of fake it by seriously restricting possible lengths
03:23:00  <panna> NN
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03:29:12  <supermop> so ottd would need to be patched to allow more newgrf features? or nml needs to be patched? or both?
03:33:00  <supermop> and would the patch need to add specific new layouts, that might themselves seem just as limiting to a future author?
03:35:24  <planetmaker> this is currently an openttd restriction
03:35:40  <planetmaker> once it's implemented, both nforenum and nml would need teaching, too
03:36:16  <planetmaker> I'd not add specific layouts. I'd add a feature which allows to define arbitrary layouts via newgrf
03:36:36  <planetmaker> similar to the tilelayouts of industries
03:36:41  <supermop> ok
03:37:00  <supermop> also good would be a couple callbacks
03:37:06  <planetmaker> of course
03:37:43  <supermop> to change appearance based on neighboring bridge - to allow 'wide' bridges
03:37:45  <planetmaker> and variables
03:38:37  <supermop> ie a 'brooklyn bridge' whereby two road bridges and one tram bridge look like a single wide bridge
03:38:39  <planetmaker> well, that'd be quite advanced to allow multi-tile width
03:38:56  <supermop> well not an actually wide bridge
03:40:00  <planetmaker> I've the feeling that that's something which not necessarily will be added when tacking bridges. It's feasible, but it's quite a bit beyond current capabilities
03:40:18  <supermop> but say if suspension bridge detects bridge of same length and compatible type next to it, it instead draws a different set ofdeck sprites
03:40:49  <planetmaker> yes... and then the question comes "why not, if one is a tile shorter" or so :-)
03:40:59  <supermop> heh
03:41:11  <planetmaker> and what to do when I really want two adjacent bridges like a single one
03:41:13  <planetmaker> etc :-)
03:41:42  <planetmaker> it has issues, and would work like some auto-adjust houses / industries / stations
03:41:57  <supermop> those that face roads?
03:42:14  <supermop> like the town houses in .se houses?
03:45:22  <supermop> well that is nice but less important
03:45:38  <supermop> i could work around it if the bridge limit was raised
03:46:04  <supermop> (steel susp. bridge left. steel susp bridge right etc)
03:47:50  <supermop> other nice feature would be height requirements
03:49:54  <supermop> anyway sorry to be rambling on like this
03:53:04  <planetmaker> it's ok :-)
03:53:14  <planetmaker> yes, it would be nice.
03:53:24  <planetmaker> *someone* is just slacking off :-P
03:53:57  <supermop> heh
03:54:41  <supermop> can bridges currently be limited to only one deck type? (only road, only monorail, etc?)
03:54:55  <supermop> well let me read specs a bit
03:57:50  <supermop> seems no
03:58:30  <supermop> an alweg-style monorail beam bridge would look silly with a road on it
04:04:47  <supermop> should i make a suggestion in the suggestion forum, or would that annoy people?
04:17:05  <planetmaker> you can post all kind of phantasies and wishlists in the suggestions forum ;-)
04:18:09  <supermop> are you familiar with the kompact label in Koln, planetmaker?
04:18:55  <planetmaker> with what?
04:19:08  <planetmaker> (the answer thus is probably 'no' ;-) )
04:19:08  <supermop> its a german music label
04:19:16  <planetmaker> never heart of it
04:19:31  <planetmaker> but I'm a music-industry-agnostic
04:19:34  <supermop> its fairly niche, so it would be odd if you had
04:19:44  <supermop> its a small shop
04:20:00  <supermop> they do mostly minimalist electronic
04:20:17  <supermop> (shop meaning company, not an actual record shop)
04:22:47  <supermop> I sometimes feel like quite the fish out of water in OTTD land
04:24:30  <planetmaker> hehe :-)
04:24:56  <planetmaker> for all the boundaries you find?
04:26:14  <supermop> i meant demographically
04:26:44  <supermop> I have no programming background
04:27:09  <supermop> seem to have a different taste graphically to most users/contributors etc
04:27:25  <planetmaker> there's quite a few who don't have an IT background
04:27:58  <planetmaker> (i.e. everything I know there is mostly self-taught)
04:28:17  <supermop> i like to approach it from a design/planning standpoint
04:28:24  <planetmaker> s/i.e./e.g./
04:28:29  <planetmaker> damn abbreviations ;-)
04:28:32  <supermop> but i run into walls with coding
04:29:08  <supermop> yes we should just merge ie and eg  to save on misuse and embarassment
04:29:54  <supermop> also it seems everyone active here is older than I, but in the tycoon channel, i am older than everyone there
04:33:43  <planetmaker> hm, everyone here _older_ than you? That'd be... interesting.
04:33:51  <planetmaker> Though it depends on how old you are, of course
04:34:03  <supermop> just an impression i get
04:34:24  <supermop> I guess you guys come across and having your act together
04:34:36  <supermop> s/and/as
04:34:51  <planetmaker> please rephrase
04:35:16  <planetmaker> (I don't understand that wording)
04:35:37  <supermop> hmm having your act together... having your ducks in a row
04:35:59  <planetmaker> hm... I see. Too sane ;-)
04:36:14  <supermop> i guess it implies a copetence and organization
04:36:32  <supermop> along with so coherent motivation or vision
04:36:36  <supermop> *some
04:36:42  <supermop> competence
04:37:55  <planetmaker> I guess it's a bit of self-selection that those people with a somewhat common vision of the game gather
04:38:00  <supermop> so, someone who knows what they want to be doing, and made an effort to be capable of doing it
04:39:23  <planetmaker> well... it's how open-source works: those who want to do something, just do it. And share it
04:39:46  <supermop> yeah, it seems very mature
04:40:14  <supermop> so i guess i got them impression that you were all older than me because you were able to make that happen
04:42:07  <planetmaker> I might well be older than you. But then I'm probably one of the oldest ones around in this channel ;-)
04:42:35  <supermop> heh
04:44:03  <supermop> ok, well I should be going to bed, have a conference call with London early in the morning
04:44:09  <supermop> talk to you later
04:44:14  <planetmaker> bye
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06:38:44  <Elukka> trains trains trains
06:38:45  <Elukka> http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Railway/trackplan-1.png
06:41:44  <Elukka> really edging the limit of how much of the table i want to fill up with track here...
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07:01:29  <Terkhen> good morning
07:02:15  <planetmaker> moin Terkhen
07:18:13  <appe> morning
07:18:19  <appe> i was working a bit on the sounds yesterday
07:18:34  <appe> i havent made anything yet, though i think i have decided how to acheive this
07:19:29  <appe> i had two options. use modern tools (with samples) to create the sounds - or simply synthesize and sculpt white analogue noise down to the individual sounds.
07:20:08  <appe> the guy in me that's not getting paid with a dayjob wants option #1, the artist in me wants option #2.
07:22:31  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23025 /trunk/src/graph_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Support resized company colour icon in company key window.
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07:27:09  <norbert79> appe: I would prefer 1... Even if I work creating new sounds or effects or even something for a game for my own amusement, I use 1
07:28:11  <norbert79> appe: For example I have spent some time for creating a sirene sound for an addon for Mafia 1 (Hungarian Mafia), because there was no included. So I have spent some time fuigring out what type of sirenes were used back then and got a sample recording too, which I have cut, looped, etc, and the end result was fantastic :)
07:29:12  <norbert79> appe: I did the same for Modern Mafia mod too, also sirene, but had to cut from a 5 minutes long recording :)
07:29:59  <planetmaker> norbert79: then go ahead and create (also) sounds for OpenTTD
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07:30:25  <norbert79> planetmaker: Was merely about telling how well #1 could work ;-) appe wanted to create new sounds, not me ;-)
07:31:06  <norbert79> planetmaker: I am fine with current ones... :)
07:32:28  <norbert79> planetmaker: Basically the problem I would have with creating new sounds for OpenTTD would be the fact, that I am way too used to the original ones...
07:32:41  <norbert79> planetmaker: Wouldn't be able having new ideas
07:40:04  <appe> norbert79: that sounds neat
07:40:11  <appe> ill think about it
07:41:02  <norbert79> appe: Synthetising sounds might also work, but it would still feel like an instant soup.
07:41:15  <norbert79> appe: Nice, good, but still it feels different.
07:42:28  <norbert79> appe: I am a rookie on understanding sound, transforming, playing with tricks, but even audacity provides so many cool features, that if I was able recreating certain things well, just think about it what a pro could do... :)
07:45:15  <appe> hehe
07:45:40  <appe> well, i do have the gear to actually record new stuff.
07:46:30  <norbert79> appe: Well, I think you got your answer... :) You just need to find the perfect candidates for the effects
07:47:07  <appe> :)
07:47:34  <appe> btw, here's a track i made a few years ago with the same gear i think ill use now
07:47:46  <appe> http://fac.dndr.se/poo/appe_-_the_cassette_years-2007/01-appe_cassette-years_brain.mp3
07:48:48  <norbert79> appe: You already shared this one ;-)
07:49:33  <norbert79> appe: But yeah, there you go, you are all set
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07:53:56  <appe> oh
07:55:24  <V453000> nature comes to openttd? :D
07:55:25  <V453000> :p
07:56:48  <appe> hehe
07:57:02  <planetmaker> appe: you're aware that sound files are wav files?
07:57:17  <appe> yes, of course?
07:57:25  <planetmaker> ok :-)
07:58:07  <norbert79> unless one creates a cat file :)
07:58:34  <planetmaker> eh?
07:58:42  <norbert79> planetmaker: sample.cat
07:58:45  <planetmaker> yes?
07:58:49  <planetmaker> what about that?
07:58:56  <norbert79> <planetmaker> appe: you're aware that sound files are wav files?
07:59:03  <norbert79> easier compacting it into one file
07:59:09  <norbert79> just saying
07:59:12  <appe> planetmaker: i dont really follow.
07:59:22  <peter1138> what's the relevance of being wav files?
07:59:22  <appe> planetmaker: why do you ask? :)
07:59:26  <planetmaker> appe: I just asked as you linked an mp3 :-)
07:59:41  <norbert79> planetmaker: he did, but it was merely an example of his work :)
07:59:49  <norbert79> planetmaker: unrelated to the game
07:59:50  <appe> planetmaker: that's music, and not related to any ttd work.
07:59:57  <planetmaker> ok ok :-)
08:00:14  <planetmaker> I just want to make sure that no-one is disappointed to find out the effort was in vain
08:00:30  <planetmaker> you being aware of the formats thus is good :-)
08:00:33  <norbert79> planetmaker: Like transforming an mp3 to wav would be impossible ;-)
08:01:00  <planetmaker> to midi for music is... difficult
08:01:07  <planetmaker> at least I lack the tools
08:01:33  <peter1138> weird. my sound doesn't work when i download and play it... on the wrong machine...
08:01:40  <norbert79> Pity that the game never wanted to support streams, like s3m, IT, XM
08:01:59  <peter1138> they're not streams
08:02:02  <planetmaker> well... why streams?
08:02:20  <norbert79> tracker files, whatever, comes from perspective how you look at them
08:02:22  <planetmaker> you want to maintain an openttd music radio?
08:02:49  <planetmaker> it would to some degree make sense to support other music file formats than midi
08:02:52  <norbert79> I also made some music back then, lost them all, but still in lovew with the good old MOD, S3M, IT and XM formats :)
08:03:03  <norbert79> planetmaker: Well, the libraries are there
08:03:09  <norbert79> planetmaker: libmikmod
08:03:24  <planetmaker> there are many libraries for many formats
08:03:38  <norbert79> sure, but mikmod supports all sort of such
08:03:42  <planetmaker> there are far less people who use them. and use them in a manner that it fits the game
08:04:13  <norbert79> "Supported file formats include mod, stm, s3m, mtm, xm, and it"
08:04:23  <peter1138> no point in supporting those, you might as well just support ogg vorbis
08:04:36  <norbert79> true, yet in size these are way smaller
08:04:41  <peter1138> and there's already patches for that
08:04:50  <appe> making the sfx stuff seems really neat. but i can say i kind of pooped my pants when i started thinking about making an openttd tron soundtrack.
08:04:55  <norbert79> pity it never got into main
08:05:09  <planetmaker> norbert79: I bet I have not seen a file for most of those formats
08:05:23  <norbert79> planetmaker: The files are not to be blamed because of this ;-)
08:05:38  <planetmaker> norbert79: no. But it tells how common they are
08:05:47  <norbert79> planetmaker: One game, which used an own format of MOD was Crusader - No Remorse for example
08:06:31  <norbert79> planetmaker: Well, guess you never felt connected tom any scene movement then... It was/is well beloved there, and they provide the easiest tools for beginner composers
08:07:12  <Korenn> norbert79: I've seen and used all of those file formats in the past
08:07:22  <norbert79> MIDI is just PITA, becuase you rely on your soundcard or SF2 samples, which are hard to get/make, where Fasttracker (XM) provides the possibility using wav samples
08:07:41  <norbert79> Korenn: At least one who is familiar with it :)
08:07:45  <Korenn> yep, and it guarantees that it sounds the same on all systems
08:07:51  <norbert79> exactly
08:08:13  <norbert79> while MIDI can make some weird things... SF2 might not contain right samples you need for example
08:08:26  <Korenn> But peter1138 is right, might as well just support ogg vorbis and be done with it
08:08:58  <norbert79> Korenn: Sure, but transforming the title music into OGG would make a rather huge file, while the same in IT for example would be almost as big as the current MIDI
08:09:22  <norbert79> ok, a bit bigger, because of the samples, but way smaller, than the OGG
08:09:26  <Korenn> IT was... Infinity Trigger, right?
08:09:32  <norbert79> Impulse Tracker
08:09:33  <Korenn> tracker*
08:09:37  <Korenn> oh derp yes
08:09:43  <Korenn> long time ago :P
08:10:08  <norbert79> I can clearly remember the fight between Fasttracker users and Impulse Tracker fans :))
08:10:28  <appe> trackers :(
08:10:46  <Korenn> I only wrote the reader bits for in my programs, they were much the same there (import a lib)
08:10:49  <planetmaker> norbert79: adding support for any other music format would not mean to remove support for midi...
08:10:59  <planetmaker> thus nothing would need conversion
08:11:11  <norbert79> planetmaker: Right, forgat
08:11:26  <norbert79> so nothing against supportin g tracker formats then, right? ;-)
08:11:31  <Terkhen> yes, supporting only heavy formats such as ogg or mp3 is not an option for distribution, it would need to support ogg/mp3/whatever and still midi
08:11:44  <peter1138> argument against supporting anythign extra is "use your usual media player"
08:11:53  <planetmaker> yeah
08:12:02  <Terkhen> that's what I was going to say, I haven't used the music in OpenTTD in ages :P
08:12:06  <peter1138> http://i.imgur.com/UDUXJ.png
08:12:09  <peter1138> trudat
08:12:11  <planetmaker> Though one can argue that a better "out of the box" experience wrt sound might be nicer
08:12:26  <peter1138> it's only a bit pants on linux
08:12:37  <peter1138> and only because i never finished the sdlmixer patch
08:12:41  <Terkhen> I just have the mp3 version of the original soundtrack that someone did between the rest of my music :P
08:12:51  <norbert79> peter1138: Pity... Even German Truck Simulator has MP3, OGG support, including support for Internet MP3 streams too. Not saying OpenTTD would need it, just saying, that some do support additional methods, than "regular music player"
08:13:19  <peter1138> like people wanting the gui to support skinning
08:13:29  <peter1138> why... it's game, not a desktop environment
08:13:50  <norbert79> peter1138: Because it's more attractive having it inside the game, not needed to launch one more application...
08:14:02  <norbert79> peter1138: I prefer it... And as I could see from GTS players, they all love it
08:14:18  <norbert79> peter1138: got always asked, how I did enable it
08:14:49  <Terkhen> meh, that image reminded me that all of the games I'm expecting will be coming with loads of stupid DLC
08:15:04  <peter1138> sorry
08:15:18  <norbert79> Terkhen: Aye, this new method of DLC is just abusing gameplay, and making players life a hell
08:15:27  <norbert79> Terkhen: Mafia 2 is a good example for that
08:15:37  <Terkhen> for example, I'm completely ignoring Civilization IV
08:15:40  <Terkhen> sorry, V
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08:15:55  <Terkhen> they released a GOTY recently and even that is missing some DLC
08:16:02  <norbert79> Terkhen: Civ 5?
08:16:05  <Terkhen> yes
08:16:09  <norbert79> Understand
08:16:31  <norbert79> The best DLC collection well sold was Heroes 3 Complete. All patched up, having all addons...
08:16:37  <Ammler> <Eddi|zuHause> [03:50:51] Ammler: it's quite annoying that the error log in the ticket throws 404 after a new version was compiled <-- that means, the error is resolved
08:16:42  <Terkhen> mass effect 2 was completely loaded with DLC and mass effect 3 will likely be worse
08:16:54  <Terkhen> at least portal 2 DLC is free and updates automatically but in general... meh
08:17:22  <norbert79> Terkhen: I am also for copy-paste game, start, enjoy, or Install and enjoy (withoutn activiation and such)
08:17:58  <norbert79> Terkhen: I have started making my purchased games storing this way. All installed, pached up, CD-ROM/DVD check removed, registry keys stored where necessary
08:18:18  <norbert79> Terkhen: Despite I own them in original... GOG.com provides this purchase method
08:18:50  <Terkhen> I include them already installed, updated and configured in my hard disk image :P
08:19:06  <norbert79> Terkhen: I store my favorites on a Pendrive, including OpenTTD :)
08:19:26  <norbert79> where possible Linux/Windows binaries included
08:20:21  <norbert79> DLC... It's all about making users buying the same thing over and over again
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08:20:59  <Terkhen> IMO it is breaking what should have been a single game into a lot of small, expensive pieces
08:21:36  <norbert79> Terkhen: And some even though need further addons making it a bit more enjoyable... Nowadays you don't own a game, the game owns you.
08:21:37  <dihedral> good morning
08:21:42  <norbert79> morning dihedral
08:21:45  <Eddi|zuHause2> Ammler: no, it didn't, the error log was stored under the next revision, but the ticket was not updated
08:21:47  <Terkhen> hi dihedral
08:21:50  <dihedral> you are quick norbert79
08:21:51  <planetmaker> hi dihedral
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08:21:57  <appe> heroes 3.
08:21:57  <appe> <3
08:22:02  <dihedral> too fast... too fast :-(
08:22:04  <norbert79> dihedral: Sure
08:22:07  <dihedral> na, just kidding ;-)
08:22:08  <dihedral> hi
08:22:13  <norbert79> dihedral: That's what she said! :D
08:22:32  <dihedral> she said 'hi'?
08:22:33  <dihedral> :-P
08:22:38  <dihedral> or 'just kidding' :-P
08:22:45  <dihedral> don't answer!
08:22:56  <Terkhen> that's what she said
08:23:02  <norbert79> lol
08:23:08  <dihedral> :-D
08:24:49  <norbert79> Terkhen: But you see I wouldn't even mind DLC's, if it would be possible modding them easy, or at least I don't have to break through several methods doing so. SWAT 4 provides such nice features, Duke Nukem 3D was also nice on that, Hidden and Dangerous 2 and Mafia 1 didn't yet users were able creating whole bunch of tools for them...
08:25:12  <norbert79> oh and Doom 3 was also easy to mod
08:25:47  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: take https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3145 ... the ticket has a link to http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cets/push/ERROR/r240 then there was an unrelated commit which moved the error log to http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cets/push/ERROR/r241
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08:28:05  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: but why remove them at all?
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08:41:35  <Ammler> why keep it at all?
08:42:14  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: what if i want to browse through older tickets?
08:42:26  <Ammler> hmm, the issue should link to ERROR only
08:42:42  <Ammler> the issue is there
08:42:50  <Ammler> just the ERROR bundle is gone
08:43:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: yes, i get some nonsense and a 404
08:43:12  <Ammler> (if there is a new ERROR bundle or a succeeded build)
08:43:40  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: nothing which hints to what the original error was
08:44:33  <Ammler> yep, I would add part of the error log to the ticket directly
08:45:49  <Eddi|zuHause> and i still need email on commit
08:46:23  <Ammler> I still wait for the patch :-P
08:47:04  <Ammler> but I once started with at least testing the notify extension
08:47:59  <Ammler> the issue is I need to change the repos which are now in "bare" mode on the server
08:48:44  <Eddi|zuHause> how do commits end up on the activity page?
08:48:52  <Ammler> so we can have a list in .devzone, who to mail
08:49:16  <norbert79> Hehhe @ http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/x11.png
08:49:28  <Ammler> there runs a hook on every push
08:49:53  <Ammler> which does trigger redmine to fetch and compiler to possibilty build
08:50:18  <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: linking to the png directly is useless
08:50:30  <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: it cuts off half the joke, the mousover text
08:50:41  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Ok, it's today's one
08:50:52  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: so http://www.xkcd.com
08:51:02  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Noted!
08:51:38  <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: use the permanent link noted below. i.e. http://xkcd.com/963/
08:51:57  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: isn't that the alternative text which explains the image for text browsers?
08:52:09  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Have xkcd.com in my Feed reader... But sure
08:52:18  <Ammler> ah no, title
08:52:26  <norbert79> Ammler: This time no hover-text is necessary... :)
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08:52:34  <norbert79> Ammler: It speaks for itself :))
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08:53:41  <Ammler> norbert79: well, I use suse, so I never had to edit that file :-)
08:54:34  <norbert79> Ammler: Guess you didn't start with Suse 7.1 ;-)
08:55:17  <peter1138> xorg doesn't need editing on modern systems
08:55:27  <peter1138> unless you're using those binary nvidia drivers, heh
08:55:35  <norbert79> peter1138: It did need some back in Gutsy of Ubuntu...
08:55:50  <norbert79> peter1138: But recent Nvidia drivers doesn't nee that anymore neither, if you install it from repos
08:55:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i use the binary ati drivers... and needed to edit this plenty of times
08:57:01  <Ammler> norbert79: yes, around 7.1, but at that time not very much Desktop
08:57:57  <norbert79> Ammler: Well, it sure was... XFree86 is still annoying, X.Org is way better nowadays. (Xfree86 is still used in many Server based Linux distributions, like Red Hat Enterprise)
08:58:09  <Ammler> as I used deskops there was a gui called sax on suse
08:58:38  <norbert79> That was an addon helper, yes, not part of regular XFree86 though
08:58:49  <norbert79> it was Suse only
09:03:56  <b_jonas> actually both of them are annoying, but X.Org possibly less so
09:05:26  <peter1138> suse was a pita
09:05:27  <Terkhen> :P
09:05:30  <peter1138> <3 debian
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09:06:46  <Terkhen> do you know of any NewGRF that includes multiple cargos with town effect food or town effect water?
09:09:19  <norbert79> ECS? FIRS?
09:09:40  <norbert79> Not sure though
09:09:44  <Terkhen> neither am I
09:09:50  * Terkhen hacks one
09:10:39  <b_jonas> you think people can survive on substitutes instead of real water or food?
09:11:11  <Korenn> Terkhen: I noticed that Frosch defined a callback for the cargo display in towns...
09:11:14  <Terkhen> in my hack they are going to survive by eating raw coal and melted steel
09:11:18  <Eddi|zuHause> FIRS has several for food, iirc (milk, fruit, ...)
09:11:26  <Terkhen> Korenn: which one?
09:11:32  <b_jonas> heh
09:11:52  <Eddi|zuHause> and several for goods (alcohol, building materials)
09:11:56  <Terkhen> Cargo requirement information callback <--- do you mean that one?
09:12:00  <Eddi|zuHause> and it makes goods a water cargo
09:12:29  <Korenn> yeah
09:12:48  <Terkhen> right now my changes remove the display of delivered cargo completely, as its current implementation does not make sense
09:13:04  <Terkhen> right now it just uses the name and unit amount of the first cargo found with a given town effect
09:13:10  <Korenn> well, a better default is always good ;)
09:13:19  <Terkhen> but if for example you have two cargos with TE_FOOD, one of them liquid and other in crates
09:13:33  <Terkhen> it could say 500 crates of canned food
09:13:42  <Terkhen> when in reality it is 250 and 250 of each
09:13:52  <Terkhen> also it counts the TE, which is not the same as cargo units
09:14:02  <Terkhen> you could define a cargo with a double TE
09:14:12  <Terkhen> and right now it would be displayed with twice the correct amount
09:14:54  <b_jonas> the townspeople lie that they need more food than they can actually survive on? I think that's completely normal.
09:14:54  <Terkhen> of course removing them is just a temporal solution while I hack the rest of the code, losing features is never seen as a good thing :)
09:15:10  <Korenn> Terkhen: right, so the newgrf callback probably makes the most sense
09:15:39  <b_jonas> If they told you the actual minimum amount they need, you'd sure give them 20 percent less at the next budget cut.
09:15:58  <Terkhen> indeed... but I don't know the best way to show the default amounts :)
09:17:22  <b_jonas> By the way, it would be nice if the buy new vehicles list told me the capacity of a car it would have after refitting, eg. “Refittable to: 10 tons of coal, 6 items of livestock”
09:17:42  <norbert79> I think it already does that
09:17:49  <norbert79> at least for planes
09:17:54  <norbert79> by default
09:18:39  <Terkhen> it does it already, yes
09:20:55  <b_jonas> it doesn't do that for me: http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/ottd.png
09:21:26  <b_jonas> It says “Capacity: 20 bags of mail (refittable). Refittable to: Mail, Goods, Livestock.”
09:21:30  <norbert79> b_jonas: Go inside the refit
09:21:35  <norbert79> b_jonas: You will see it there
09:22:06  <b_jonas> norbert79: oh sure, once I've bought the car and an engine for it, I can go in the refit window and see it there
09:22:23  <b_jonas> but I'd like to see it when I'm selecting the cars
09:22:53  <Terkhen> it would be too long in some cases IMO
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09:23:16  <b_jonas> given that here I have to choose between Covered Carriage Truck and Livestock Van, and there's no way to know which one carries 6 and which one carries 8 items of livestock.
09:23:20  <norbert79> I understand. Well, is it this important? Normally a car is bought for a specific cargo, and refits are only necessary under special circumstances
09:23:29  <b_jonas> norbert79: that depends on the grf
09:23:54  <Korenn> indeed
09:23:55  <b_jonas> this is using UKRS2 where you have to use refit on cars
09:24:03  <norbert79> b_jonas: Well, there you got the main core of the problem. It's depending on the GRF
09:24:03  <Korenn> most advanced grfs use generic wagons and refits are the norm
09:24:31  <b_jonas> (for ships it's worse)
09:24:33  <planetmaker> it simply make no sense to offer 2 dozen bulk wagons
09:24:35  <Korenn> a situation I much prefer, personally. Less clutter in the buy window
09:24:49  <norbert79> b_jonas: Hard to satisfy anyone needs, so I guess it's not listed there... besides, if a wagon could be refitted to 10 different products it would make the window look ugly
09:25:12  <b_jonas> well, I'd like separate wagons so that they have separate looks
09:25:19  <Korenn> a number added to the cargo type wouldn't make that much of a difference
09:25:26  <Korenn> large refit lists already look ugly as it is
09:25:34  <b_jonas> but you're right in that the refit list for a ship can be very long
09:25:40  <norbert79> b_jonas: I on the other hand sometimes refit planes being able flying with cargo, but I am ok with current solution.
09:26:15  <Korenn> b_jonas: sets like cc2 have separate looks for their refits, mostly.
09:26:19  <Korenn> 2cc*
09:26:45  <b_jonas> yep, and in UKRS2 if I attach wagons the look of the engine changes
09:26:51  <b_jonas> which is quite the opposite from other sets
09:27:00  <b_jonas> where the look of the cars change if you attach an engine
09:27:07  <b_jonas> funny
09:27:23  <Terkhen> :P
09:27:53  <b_jonas> Korenn: sadly it might not be just a number
09:28:31  <b_jonas> Korenn: it would have to change from "Livestock, " to "6 items of Livestock, " and from "Oil" to "50,000 tons of Oil, " or something like that
09:28:39  <Korenn> yea, I guess
09:29:00  <Korenn> '6 livestock' would suffice information wise, but people would complain :P
09:29:08  <b_jonas> though Oil is usually not a problem because it's carried by separate liquid vehicles which have short refit lists
09:29:21  <b_jonas> Korenn: 6 livestock might, but how about 5 oil?\
09:29:26  <Korenn> works for me
09:29:39  <Korenn> I already think in that frame anyway
09:29:42  <norbert79> way too long to display in the buying window
09:29:45  <b_jonas> hmm, it's not actually "50,000 tons of Oil". that would be a bit too much.
09:29:45  <Korenn> but that's cause I'm a programmer :P
09:30:13  <norbert79> let's not forget, that OpenTTD comes in 640x480 as default resolution
09:30:35  <Terkhen> :P
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09:31:00  <norbert79> so whatever you would like to include, it must fit :)
09:31:04  <Korenn> If there was a setting that allowed turning off the unit of measurement for cargo, I'd have it off all the time
09:31:33  <b_jonas> maybe it should say "6 cows"? "livestock" or "cattle" needs a qualifier in English
09:31:57  <norbert79> b_jonas: Still how do you measure weight or liquid without saying Litre or Kg/Tons?
09:32:03  <b_jonas> and "10 shirts" because trousers doesn't seem to have a synonym that goes without "pair"
09:32:05  <norbert79> doesn't make too much sense
09:32:23  <b_jonas> norbert79: yes, but like I said, liquid carrier vehicles usually have short refit lists
09:32:35  <b_jonas> norbert79: so it would be just "5 barrels of oil, 5 barrels of water"
09:32:46  <norbert79> b_jonas: What about grains? Even Liquid carrier could be refit to it...
09:32:47  <Korenn> b_jonas: until someone writes an industry grf with two dozen liquid cargoes :)
09:33:12  <b_jonas> Korenn: that would make the refit list long even if it's just listing the type of cargos
09:33:13  <norbert79> b_jonas: Or milk...
09:33:25  <b_jonas> norbert79: liquid carriers can refit to grain? hmm
09:33:28  <norbert79> b_jonas: That's why not a good idea making it even larger
09:33:47  <norbert79> b_jonas: Think on trucks, while they have those barrell like of load
09:33:54  <b_jonas> that could be a problem, yes
09:33:59  <norbert79> b_jonas: Sometimes grains are being transported with it
09:34:02  <Terkhen> 5 liquid cargos for trucks in FIRS, another 5 in ECS
09:34:53  <b_jonas> how about using "5 t grains" instead of "5 tons of grain"?
09:35:01  <b_jonas> um, I mean "5 t grain"
09:35:10  <norbert79> looks ugly a bit
09:35:21  <norbert79> but still it only saves a few characters
09:35:38  <norbert79> 6 to be precise
09:35:42  <Terkhen> you can change units for cargos via NewGRFs already
09:35:52  <Terkhen> it can even be 5 grain if you want to
09:35:56  <Terkhen> or 5
09:35:57  <norbert79> lol
09:36:08  <norbert79> 5 grain... Like the three 3 beans
09:36:13  <norbert79> three beans I mean
09:36:26  <norbert79> wow, 5 pieces of grain making a vehicle full
09:36:28  <Elukka> i don't really get why liquids aren't just measured in tonnes like everything ense
09:36:30  <Elukka> *else
09:36:40  <norbert79> Elukka: Becuase misleading
09:36:49  <norbert79> Elukka: 5 tons of milk is not as much as 5 tons of water
09:36:49  <b_jonas> as another solution,
09:36:56  <Elukka> it very roughly is
09:36:59  <norbert79> milk weighs more
09:37:23  <norbert79> Oil and Petrol is lighter, than water
09:37:28  <b_jonas> what if when you choose "Livestock" from the filter list in the new vehicles window, it shows "Capacity: 6 tons of Livestock" instead of the original capacity, and also buys the carriage refitted?
09:37:32  <Elukka> coal is lighter than iron ore
09:37:40  <Elukka> it's still measured the same in game
09:37:41  <b_jonas> (The original capacity being 20 bags of mail)
09:37:55  <norbert79> Elukka: You are mixing up phsical forms. Ever seen liquid coal?
09:38:09  <Elukka> what?
09:38:13  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's called oil
09:38:14  <Elukka> liquids have mass just the same as solids
09:38:24  <norbert79> Elukka: You still seems not getting it...
09:38:39  <Elukka> yeah, i'm not sure what you're trying to say
09:38:48  <norbert79> Elukka: Milk is less in litres when measured in wight, than water
09:39:03  <norbert79> noone counts liquids in weight
09:39:08  <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: what's lighter, one tonne of feathers or one tonne of steel?
09:39:08  <Elukka> sure they do
09:39:11  <norbert79> Like you would buy 1kg of Milk or 1 litre of milk?
09:39:19  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: both are still rigid
09:39:22  <Elukka> and solids vary in density just the same as liquids
09:39:26  <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: lots of places measure weights of liquids
09:39:48  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Ok, go and cook using weights... Don't be suprised looked at stupid.
09:39:50  <Elukka> aircraft (fuel), indeed real life tanker cars...
09:39:56  <b_jonas> in fact, it should say "Capacity: 6 items of livestock (refitted)" instead of "Capacity: 20 bags of mail (refittable)" when you are using livestock as the filter
09:39:57  <Elukka> both use weight for liquids
09:40:13  <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: if you have a tank truck for oil you measure its weight empty, and then its weight full
09:40:14  <norbert79> Elukka: Main measurmenet is gallons
09:40:38  <norbert79> Elukka: Weight has only a n importance when calulcating thew cargo included
09:40:42  <Elukka> the critical measurement on a railcar is mass
09:40:45  <norbert79> Elukka: because it affects how a plane flies
09:40:53  <Elukka> if a tanker is built to take 50 tonnes you can't load it for more than 50 tonnes
09:40:57  <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: because it's way easier to measure mass than volume
09:40:57  <Korenn> b_jonas: it would be even better if the refittable cargo in the list is clickable, and it would then show the information for that refit
09:40:58  <norbert79> Elukka: But it's important how much gallons a plane has
09:41:06  <Elukka> you can load it for less if you're loading it with something less dense
09:41:06  <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: no, it's not
09:41:21  <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: the volume is completely unimportant for the plane
09:41:27  <Elukka> yeah
09:41:38  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: This is what you think. Ok, go and fill your car with fuel based on kg's...
09:41:38  <b_jonas> Korenn: perhaps, but that might be more difficult to implement, and you'd probably know what cargo you want to transport if you want to choose a car anyway
09:41:39  <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: the mass is important for getting you anywhere. the volume changes with temperature
09:41:58  <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: that's actually what they do, they just show the litres for convenience
09:42:01  <Korenn> b_jonas: yeah, but the drop down selection is unwieldy if you need to switch a lot
09:42:03  <b_jonas> Korenn: I mean, if you already know the cars well then you don't read the info so it doesn't matter it doesn't tell the refitted capacity,
09:42:12  <b_jonas> but if you don't know them, then you want to filter.
09:42:32  <Elukka> norbert, you're only listing special cases where liquids aren't measured in mass
09:42:37  <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: if the tank station says you put in 50 litres, you've actually put in like 55 litres
09:42:40  <Korenn> I do think it could use some thought - it's currently way too much of a hassle if you want to add a bunch of wagons where half are refitted to a different cargo
09:42:45  <Elukka> for both aircraft and rail vehicles mass is more important than volume
09:42:49  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Still wrong. If I would fill my car in litres in summer, it would be the same ammount of litre of fuel in winter too...
09:42:55  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Way wrong
09:42:58  <b_jonas> By the way, shouldn't the filters also include things like engine, break van, engine that goes on non-electric rails?
09:43:03  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: That's defined in standards.
09:43:07  <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: the tank stations list litres calculated for 15°C
09:43:21  <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: but that has nothing to do with the litres you actually put in
09:43:28  <Eddi|zuHause> at current temperatures
09:43:36  <planetmaker> can I buy tanks at the tank station?
09:43:36  <b_jonas> Korenn: it's usually not an issue because you cars aren't refittable to too many things
09:43:46  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Well, I know different... I guess your local stations must been cheating then :)
09:43:48  <Eddi|zuHause> and i have to go...
09:43:52  <b_jonas> Korenn: so you can just add the covered wagons and the open wagons, then refit all to livestock then refit all to grain
09:43:53  <planetmaker> or just comparitively harmless fuel? ;-)
09:44:01  <Korenn> planetmaker: it only accepts tanks
09:44:11  <b_jonas> Korenn: and get the covered cars carrying livestock and the open ones carrying grain.
09:44:23  <Elukka> norbert79: why do think liquids can't or aren't ever measured in kg or tonnes?
09:44:37  <Korenn> b_jonas: that only works in that specific case
09:44:46  <b_jonas> Korenn: it also works with mail and passengers.
09:44:52  <planetmaker> Elukka: they are...
09:44:54  <norbert79> Elukka: I am not sayixng they are not, but it also depends for what calculations they are using it. For example fighter planes never fill based on Kg's/tons but gallons/litres
09:44:57  <Korenn> b_jonas: but if you're playing FIRS and want to ship both stone and sand, it's a hassle
09:45:03  <b_jonas> Korenn: hmm
09:45:10  <b_jonas> I see
09:45:14  <b_jonas> I haven't played with FIRS
09:45:16  <norbert79> Elukka: Even passenger planes are calculating with gallons
09:45:23  <Korenn> same with ECS
09:45:54  <norbert79> Elukka: But this still does not solve the current problem. Kg is one character longer, than Litre (l) :)
09:45:54  <Korenn> they all go in hoppers, so you have to split up the wagons, refit, then swap to the other group, refit again, and add them together
09:45:58  <planetmaker> norbert79: or (metric) tons
09:46:00  <Elukka> i've seen aircraft fuel referred to in tons
09:46:03  <planetmaker> or litres
09:46:11  <Elukka> rocket fuel is almost always measured in tonnes too
09:46:34  <Korenn> norbert79: ,000 l is longer than t. ;
09:46:35  <Korenn> ;)
09:46:47  <norbert79> Elukka: Because it affects if a rocket can leave orbit or not... And since there is no control how fast the fuel burns no need to think in other, than kilograms
09:46:52  <Elukka> railway tanker car payloads are measured in both tonnes and volume, but the critical measurement is the mass
09:47:17  <norbert79> Elukka: So basically we are saying the same. It depends on the calculation the measurement is used for
09:47:18  <Elukka> liquids rockets are throttleable, there is control on how fast the fuel burns
09:47:25  <Korenn> liquid rail cargo is always expressed in weight, so that they can calculate required pull
09:47:30  <norbert79> Elukka: but the temperature stays the same
09:48:01  <Elukka> what's that got to do with anything
09:48:08  <Elukka> korenn, good point
09:48:21  <norbert79> Lunch time, later
09:48:40  <Elukka> i think it would also be less confusing for new players if oil fields produced 100 tonnes of oil rather than 100 000 l
09:48:44  <b_jonas> Is it possible for a car to be refitted to two different variants both carrying Goods with the same attributes but different graphics?
09:48:56  <b_jonas> I think some GRFs use different car models instead.
09:48:59  <Korenn> if the refits are defined, yep
09:49:09  <b_jonas> so in that case even the filter wouldn't help
09:49:22  <Korenn> they could even have differing capacity
09:49:23  <b_jonas> you'd have to split the train anyway if you wanted to transfer both cars and crates
09:49:31  <b_jonas> yes, I've seen different capacity
09:49:36  <Terkhen> hmm... I wonder if it would be possible to do a string code like {STRING5} that consumes an arbitrary number of strings
09:49:43  <b_jonas> FISH has one such ship
09:49:59  <Korenn> Terkhen: heh, also ran into missing STRING6? :P
09:50:08  <Terkhen> no, I need a custom one
09:50:44  <Korenn> b_jonas: but I like your suggestion of being able to pre-select a refit from the buy window a lot
09:50:48  <Korenn> it would make life a lot easier
09:50:51  <norbert79> Elukka: One thing: Volume and mass can be only used, where temperatures are not flexible. For liquids, in case for flexible temepratures, litre and gallons are used. That's the standard
09:50:54  <Terkhen> string_1, string_2, string_3, ..., string_n-1 or string_n <--- that's the output I want
09:50:57  <norbert79> Now I am off eating
09:51:02  <Elukka> not really
09:51:18  <Korenn> norbert79: you've got that totally backwards
09:51:27  <Elukka> liter and gallon are measurements of volume
09:51:29  <Korenn> in case of differing temperatures they use weight, as that's constant
09:51:29  * Terkhen tries to understand the string source code
09:51:30  <Elukka> volume varies by temperature
09:51:31  <Elukka> mass is a constant
09:51:46  <Yexo> Terkhen: if you need either STRING3 or STRING2 just use STRING3
09:52:10  <Yexo> just don't set the extra parameters via SetDParam and it'll just work
09:52:20  <b_jonas> I, having no talent for cooking, sometimes measure milk by weight with a kitchen scale so that I execute the recipe to the word.
09:52:28  <Korenn> Yexo: and when you need STRINGN ?
09:52:31  <b_jonas> However, in that case the recipe gives a volume.
09:52:40  <Terkhen> Yexo: I need an enumeration of cargos
09:52:40  <Yexo> STRINGn is not possible
09:52:50  <Terkhen> I was hacking it
09:52:55  <Korenn> I've always wondered why
09:52:55  <norbert79> Elukka: Still, tankers are limited by size, not by the fact how much weight they can swallow. You can't fill a wagon with 5 tons of oil for example at 45 °C, but for example at 10°C, since it's thicker...
09:53:00  <Terkhen> but when I wanted to add "or" I noticed that "or" should be translated too
09:53:05  <Elukka> they are limited by how much weight they can take, just like every other rail car
09:53:16  <Terkhen> if STRINGN is not possible I'll just add a string containing only "or"
09:53:21  <norbert79> Elukka: Ok, was a bad example, but you get the idea
09:53:27  <Korenn> variable length string arguments are a pretty common feature
09:53:38  <Elukka> cars are rated for a certain payload, track is rated for a certain axle weight
09:53:43  <b_jonas> Elukka: are the passenger and mail cars also limited to weight?
09:54:02  <b_jonas> I thoguht at least the passenger cars are limited more to volume.
09:54:04  <Elukka> well passenger cars are limited by how many seats there are
09:54:04  <norbert79> Elukka: But your car's tank is not limited to weight, but litres
09:54:06  <Yexo> Korenn: it's not possible because strgen (which is run at compile-time) needs to know the number of arguments
09:54:07  <Elukka> so effectively volume :P
09:54:13  <b_jonas> what? no way!
09:54:15  <b_jonas> seats?
09:54:18  <Terkhen> in theory, since you can only have 32 cargos, STRING32 would be enough for me... but I still need to add "or" between the two last strings
09:54:18  <Korenn> norbert79: in that case, they will always fill it with X tons of oil, so that the total volume will always safely fit
09:54:25  <norbert79> b_jonas: Don't think in Hungarian circumstances :D
09:54:25  <Terkhen> so I'll just hack it :P
09:54:29  <Elukka> norbert79: a hopper car built for iron ore is limited by liters when loaded with coal
09:54:38  <Elukka> does this mean coal should be measured in liters?
09:54:40  <Yexo> "{RAWSTRING} or {STRING}" ?
09:54:53  <b_jonas> :-)
09:54:53  <Korenn> there's a RAWSTRING?
09:55:04  <Terkhen> yes, I'm using RAW_STRING and strecat
09:55:07  <Yexo> yes
09:55:15  <norbert79> Elukka: Hopper car is a bad example since it's about how much the track can hold...
09:55:16  <Terkhen> that's how it's done in other parts of the code
09:55:26  <Elukka> no, it's the exact same thing as your example
09:55:43  <Elukka> all cars in real life have both mass and volume limits
09:55:55  <Elukka> it doesn't matter whether it transports liquids or solids
09:56:24  <Korenn> <norbert79> Elukka: But your car's tank is not limited to weight, but litres   <- this is blatantly untrue. It does have a maximum volume, but they're never filled to the brim BECAUSE temperature changes
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09:56:25  <norbert79> Elukka: But think for example n a bottle. You won't fill it with 1dkg of water ta 1 litre big bottle at 90°C, but only with 9cl, since it varies in size, but you can do that at 4°C
09:56:33  <b_jonas> norbert79: well, even in Austria, some ski lifts have only standing passengers, no seats, though even there my idea of their capacity is much higher than some other people's.
09:56:50  <Elukka> yeah, volume varies
09:56:52  <Korenn> norbert79: now you're arguing the case for eight
09:56:52  <Elukka> mass doesn't
09:56:53  <norbert79> Korenn: Ok, that might be true
09:56:56  <Korenn> weight
09:57:01  <norbert79> Korenn:
09:57:02  <norbert79> Korenn: No
09:57:22  <b_jonas> so basically all cars have both volume and mass limits, but depending on the cargo one is usually much more restrictive than the other
09:57:30  <Elukka> yes
09:57:33  <norbert79> Korenn: I am merely pointing out, that if you buy 30 litres of Fuel for your tank, it varies on it's size, but it's always 30 litres, otherwise you get some nice decent fine
09:57:40  <norbert79> size=mass
09:57:52  <Elukka> no, you've got it the wrong way round
09:57:54  <norbert79> I have seen a civil case on this
09:57:57  <Elukka> mass does not vary
09:58:00  <Elukka> volume (liters) does
09:58:01  <norbert79> It does
09:58:22  <Elukka> it really doesn't :D
09:58:37  <norbert79> 30 litre of fuel must be 30 litre even in winter or in summer
09:58:48  <norbert79> even if it weighs more
09:58:50  <Elukka> volume varies depending on temperature
09:58:55  <Elukka> mass is always constant
09:58:58  <norbert79> Sure
09:59:00  <planetmaker> norbert79: 30l of fuel are 'standard litres'. Which is normed to a certain temperature
09:59:05  <norbert79> planetmaker: No
09:59:08  <norbert79> planetmaker: Not everywhere
09:59:20  <b_jonas> So fuel is cheaper in the winter?
09:59:25  <Elukka> this is honestly elementary school physics...
09:59:29  <norbert79> No, because you still have 30 litres
09:59:51  <norbert79> it's mass varies a bit in winter, but at a very certain small level
10:00:05  <Elukka> mass of a substance does not vary depending on temperature
10:00:17  <b_jonas> how much does the volume of fuel even vary in the temperature range that typically occurs in a gas station?
10:00:25  <norbert79> 30 litres of fuel in winter weighs a bit more, than in summer...
10:00:38  <b_jonas> I mean, it's not like they're selling you boiling gas
10:00:39  <Elukka> gas stations are probably a bad example if it's 'standard litres' and not real litres
10:00:53  <norbert79> b_jonas: As far as I know that's controlled, but I don't know how well does that work under extreme low temperatures
10:00:58  <Elukka> norbert no it doesn't
10:01:05  <Elukka> that doesn't make any sense
10:01:10  <b_jonas> A water tanker likely won't carry boiling water either.
10:01:21  <Elukka> the volume, measured in liters, varies with temperature
10:01:25  <Elukka> the mass, measured in kg, does not
10:02:03  <norbert79> 1dkg of water is not always 1 liter of water, it depends on the temperature, but 30l of fuel must be always 30 l of fuel
10:02:16  <Elukka> i'm not sure how i can explain it any other way...
10:02:45  <Elukka> 30 liters of fuel at -20c is not the same as 30 liters of fuel at +20c
10:02:46  <norbert79> I get it, but I am merely pointiojng out, that some measurements are not being valuclated in mass, because of the standards
10:02:57  <norbert79> now you are micing it up
10:03:04  <norbert79> 30 litres is always 30 litres
10:03:13  <Elukka> liters are a measurement of volume
10:03:16  <Elukka> volume varies with temperature
10:03:25  <planetmaker> no :-)
10:03:28  <planetmaker> density
10:03:34  <norbert79> thank you
10:03:39  <norbert79> that was the word I was looking for
10:03:47  <Elukka> the volume taken up by a certain amount of substance varies with temperature, more accurately
10:03:50  <Elukka> so yes, density
10:04:09  <Elukka> but the mass is always a constant
10:04:16  <planetmaker> as is volume ;-)
10:04:22  <norbert79> but 30 litre of water weighs less, than 30 litre of oil, if I don't consider temperature, and density changes with temperature
10:04:34  <Elukka> planetmaker, semantics
10:04:46  <planetmaker> norbert79: sure? That really depends on the oil
10:04:54  <norbert79> planetmaker: Ok, might been not the best example
10:04:56  <Elukka> 1 kg of water at 0 c takes up a different amount of volume than 1 kg of water at 20c
10:04:56  <b_jonas> or so you think. the mass of passengers might vary by season.
10:04:56  <planetmaker> my oil in the soup floats
10:05:10  <norbert79> planetmaker: I could have said heavy water too ;-)
10:05:16  <Elukka> ergo the volume of a given mass of water varies with temperature
10:05:16  <planetmaker> yes. And Earth's rotation speed varies by season
10:05:19  <Terkhen> urgh, messy code
10:05:23  <planetmaker> norbert79: that doesn't matter
10:05:49  <Elukka> but 1 kg of water is always 1 kg of water
10:05:52  <Terkhen> BTW, OpenTTD has no temperature, no pressure / gravity changes due to height and so on
10:06:01  <planetmaker> no?! :-(
10:06:06  <peter1138> REALISTIC GRAVITY
10:06:08  <planetmaker> though... temperature it has
10:06:14  <planetmaker> snowline :-)
10:06:33  <TinoDidriksen> 1 newton of water is always 1 newton...kg also differs depending on gravity.
10:06:34  <b_jonas> does it at least have weight changes depending on latitude?
10:06:51  <Terkhen> planetmaker: it's just a patch of white moss that moves around
10:06:55  <planetmaker> TinoDidriksen: kg is a _mass_ unit. Not a force unit
10:07:02  <planetmaker> thus it doesn't depend on gravity
10:07:08  <Terkhen> b_jonas: it does not have latitude either, the world is flat
10:07:13  <Elukka> TinoDidriksen: kg is a unit of mass, not weight
10:07:22  <Elukka> 1 kg on earth is also 1 kg on the moon
10:07:38  <Elukka> weight is what varies
10:08:30  <norbert79> Elukka: Yet 1 kg might not have the same force :)
10:08:44  <Elukka> yes but it is still a mass of 1 kg
10:08:44  <norbert79> Elukka: Since the Moon has less gravity
10:08:44  <b_jonas> hmm, maybe we should have first class passenger wagons: they have less capacity but passengers pay more for transport in them
10:08:56  <Elukka> that's irrelevant
10:09:17  <Elukka> weight is measured in newtons
10:09:19  <norbert79> Elukka: Not really... Especially when you design tracks on the Moon ;-))
10:09:25  <Terkhen> b_jonas: create a new cargo called Tourists or First Class Passengers
10:09:29  <Elukka> this is the force exerted by a graviational field
10:09:34  <b_jonas> yep, it might be better as a new cargo
10:09:47  <b_jonas> we'd have Tourists and Managers
10:10:12  <Elukka> if your rover masses 500 kg on earth, it'll also mass 500 kg on the moon...
10:10:27  <Elukka> it'll also mass 500 kg in freefall ('zero gravity'), for that matter
10:10:49  <b_jonas> isn't the moon a completely different climate so you can't even compare cargo with it?
10:10:54  <TinoDidriksen> Ok, talking about mass kg...yes, 1 kg mass is 1kg mass. 1 kg of weight is not; I see they call that kgf.
10:11:07  <norbert79> Sure, but it has no more value... Mass in itself is nothing, when there is no gravitational force
10:11:25  <Elukka> mass is everything
10:11:37  <Elukka> even if there is no gravitational force there is mass
10:11:42  <norbert79> sure, so?
10:11:48  <planetmaker> norbert79: that's wrong by so many accounts...
10:12:03  <b_jonas> norbert79: tell me that again when I throw a heavy iron ball towards your head
10:12:06  <planetmaker> ... I can't even start on summing it up
10:12:12  <norbert79> planetmaker: Well, I could push happily 500kgs on the moon while on earth it would be unmovable
10:12:16  <Elukka> if you want to move in space, you have to expend a certain amount of mass in the opposite direction
10:12:23  <Elukka> if your spaceship masses more you need to expend more mass (fuel)
10:12:27  <Elukka> this is how any kind of rocket works
10:12:41  <norbert79> b_jonas: a bullet is also a few grams big, still deadly :)
10:12:46  <Terkhen> reread the first newton law
10:13:51  <norbert79> A 500kg of rock would do no harm if placed onto something on the Moon, where on the Earth it might make it collapse.
10:13:58  <Korenn> <norbert79> planetmaker: Well, I could push happily 500kgs on the moon while on earth it would be unmovable <- again, untrue. You're glossing over the parameters that actually count - friction on the mass and yourself.
10:14:04  <norbert79> because Moon has a smaller gravitational force
10:14:06  <Korenn> given low friction, you can push 500 kg on earth
10:14:08  <Elukka> that is true
10:14:11  <Korenn> given high friction, you can't on the moon
10:14:14  <Elukka> the mass is still 500 kg though
10:14:29  <norbert79> but mass is useless without force...
10:14:29  <planetmaker> quite so
10:14:32  <Elukka> no it isn't
10:14:43  <norbert79> why?
10:14:46  <Elukka> mass is the most criticial measurement for anything operating in weightlessness
10:14:46  <planetmaker> mass is absolutely NOT useless w/o friction
10:14:49  <Elukka> spacecraft, namely
10:15:06  <planetmaker> it's one of the 7 fundamental units in universe...
10:15:12  <Korenn> or nuclear fusion ;)
10:15:14  <Elukka> celestial bodies are also measured in mass
10:15:24  <norbert79> if nothing is having any force on an object in free space, would it matter if it weighs 5 grams or 500kg?
10:15:42  <Elukka> yes
10:15:43  <planetmaker> yes
10:15:56  <TinoDidriksen> It would exert a gravitational force, which would matter.
10:16:02  <planetmaker> they keyword is momentum conservation
10:16:13  <planetmaker> don't think in forces. They're boring
10:16:21  <Korenn> mass = energy
10:16:33  <Elukka> the earth masses roughly 6 x 10^24 kilograms
10:16:34  <Elukka> it's in freefall
10:16:41  <Elukka> its mass is still certainly relevant, though
10:16:44  <planetmaker> hm... I shouldn't say, they're boring. My thesis is mostly about one... damn
10:17:16  <Elukka> norbert79: you would have a much easier time pushing the 5 gram object compared to the 500 kg one
10:18:00  <Terkhen> so your thesis is boring? :P
10:18:19  <norbert79> Elukka: Sure, but I was merely comparing measuring weight on Earth and on the Moon, and it's value, since on moon you could fill an object with much more mass, than on earth, since the gravtianal force is much lower.
10:18:29  <Korenn> theses are always boring - otherwise you get reviewer complaints that it's 'too popular' :P
10:18:41  <Elukka> yes, weight does vary
10:19:29  <norbert79> Elukka: That's why I said mass (I always get confused with these terms/expressions) is nothing in itself, when there is no force in place...
10:19:49  <Elukka> i don't see how that makes sense
10:19:53  <norbert79> if we void gravitation
10:19:57  <Korenn> lol
10:20:04  <Korenn> if we void energy, everything is meaningless
10:20:30  <norbert79> it still makes fun :)
10:20:51  <Noldo> does this conversation have a point?
10:21:01  <norbert79> Noldo: No, that has been lost by now
10:21:04  <Korenn> if you have to discount fundamental properties of physics to make your point, you don't have one ;P
10:21:10  <norbert79> Noldo: but you missed a lot
10:21:29  <Noldo> have you heard of this thing called backlog
10:21:32  <norbert79> Korenn: Mathematicians do this often ;-)
10:22:11  <Korenn> but they don't attempt to argue physical points
10:22:34  <Noldo> don't go all meta on me now
10:22:36  <norbert79> Korenn: Sure, but I love how I was teached how a mathematicans prove something, and the use of contants...
10:23:03  <Korenn> Noldo: norbert79 made a nonsensical case for why cargo volume is constant, and the rest of the channel disagreed.
10:23:17  <norbert79> Korenn: Mass
10:23:24  <b_jonas> norbert79: do you know why train accidents are so deadly, and why in level crossings, trains always have the right of way over road vehicles?
10:23:33  <norbert79> Korenn: and I was merely trying to point out, that many times volume is considered instead of mass
10:23:46  <norbert79> Korenn: since density, but let's not start over
10:23:47  <Korenn> [11:58:32] <norbert79> 30 litre of fuel must be 30 litre even in winter or in summer
10:23:47  <Korenn> [11:58:44] <norbert79> even if it weighs more
10:23:55  <Korenn> seems you've been going in circles then
10:23:56  <Elukka> you were really making a case for using mass rather than volume, you just didn't notice ;)
10:24:06  <Korenn> indeed
10:24:11  <norbert79> Korenn: Yes. 30 litres is 30 litres. It's mass is different
10:24:11  <b_jonas> It turns out, reality is more complicated than we want, so weight, mass and volume all count with trains.
10:24:19  <Elukka> lol
10:25:25  <Elukka> still getting it the wrong way around :P
10:25:35  <Noldo> well...
10:25:54  <norbert79> Elukka: Let's make it simpler: Let's use what commercial companies also use. If it's mass for wagons for trains, so shall it be then
10:26:00  <Korenn> it is
10:26:03  <Korenn> they all do
10:26:23  <norbert79> then that's what the game shall also follow
10:26:31  <b_jonas> I still say that depends on the cargo
10:26:41  <b_jonas> passengers are counted using volume instead of mass
10:27:01  <norbert79> hmm, true
10:27:12  <Noldo> so is this the old guestion about which is heavier, kilogram of iron or kilo of feathers?
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10:27:39  <norbert79> Noldo: No... We are merely trying to figure out which woulld be the best to used... Besides, on which planet? :)
10:27:47  <b_jonas> on trains and buses and cars at least -- in elevators it's their mass that matters
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10:28:32  <b_jonas> smugglers swallowing drug capsules are also limited by volume
10:29:09  <Terkhen> http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/town.png <--- what do you think?
10:29:27  <Terkhen> of the display, of course the cargos displayed are just a hack
10:29:33  <norbert79> b_jonas: Well, one solution could be that you go through each type of wagon/plane, etc, and you use what other also use. For buses, the ammount of people. Oil-wagon? Tons... Etc
10:29:35  <Elukka> looks good to me
10:29:53  <b_jonas> the luggages of passengers on buses is limited by volume, but on planes the check-in luggage is limited by mass and the hand luggage by volume
10:30:10  <norbert79> b_jonas: Let's just void luggage
10:30:28  <norbert79> Terkhen: Easy to translate too... Looks nice
10:30:43  <Terkhen> it only needs translation of the "or" string
10:30:43  <b_jonas> in ottd terms, luggage is part of the passengers I think
10:31:11  <Terkhen> the problem of this display is... how to display delivered cargos?
10:31:19  <norbert79> remove it
10:31:27  <b_jonas> and if there are passengers carrying less luggage (managers) and passengers carrying more luggage (skiers) then they should be different cargo type.
10:31:28  <Noldo> does the unit cargo is measured in really matter?
10:31:29  <Elukka> i think the only thing that doesn't make sense, but more importantly is a bit confusing, is the measurement of liquids in liters
10:31:35  <norbert79> if it has been delivered, no need to listing it as required
10:31:42  <Elukka> in ottd i mean
10:32:05  <b_jonas> Hey, let's transport everything and everyone in big fixed-size crates to simplify calculations!
10:32:07  <norbert79> Noldo: Well, it would be nice using right measurements in the game following standards
10:32:20  <norbert79> b_jonas: Ok, may I start with you? Need a lift to somewhere? :))
10:32:31  <norbert79> b_jonas: and how would you solve density? :)
10:33:09  <b_jonas> norbert79: come on, it can't be that much worse than the trams in the morning.
10:33:16  <Noldo> yeah, but being standard does not imply making sence
10:33:39  <Elukka> we measure the power of cars in the average daily power output of a working horse!
10:34:01  <norbert79> Elukka: How you made that pointed out makes that look very silly
10:34:04  <Elukka> often locomotives too
10:34:06  <Noldo> KW is the standard there actually
10:34:14  <norbert79> Noldo: Not everywhere
10:34:25  <b_jonas> Elukka: nah, hit points have nothing to do with horses, except in etimology
10:34:27  <Noldo> maybe not in non-standard countries
10:34:41  <Elukka> hit points? :P
10:34:53  <Korenn> Terkhen: aweseome!
10:34:54  <Elukka> horse powers certainly have to do with horses
10:35:19  <norbert79> Why? The tracks have been also defined by the size of the..backs of roman horses
10:35:24  <norbert79> railway tracks
10:35:25  <b_jonas> it says "hp", I think it means "hit points" or "health points", the amount of damage the vehicle can suffer before it gets destroyed
10:35:31  <b_jonas> it's not "horse power"
10:35:32  <Elukka> clever
10:35:49  <Korenn> <b_jonas> smugglers swallowing drug capsules are also limited by volume ... Time for a drugs transportation mod? :P
10:36:27  <norbert79> So if we consider the fact of horses, without horses not even trains could exist :)
10:36:38  <Elukka> it'll significantly increase your aircraft profit, at the risk of getting caught and suffering a penalty with the local authority ;p
10:37:27  <b_jonas> Elukka: I don't think air traffic companies ever get from the profit.
10:37:41  <Elukka> in ottd it'd be the company doing it!
10:37:46  <norbert79> b_jonas: Well, what about airport security?
10:38:15  <Korenn> Elukka: you could write an entire mod about smuggling drugs from plantations to big cities :P
10:38:22  <Elukka> lol
10:39:10  <norbert79> And add grease-money to the expenses
10:39:31  <Korenn> and hiring enforcers
10:39:37  <norbert79> since you need to pay for paying up airport security, customes
10:39:41  <norbert79> customs
10:40:09  <norbert79> and dealers
10:40:21  <norbert79> since no station could be built for such
10:40:42  <b_jonas> I think that's already counted in the maintainence cost of the airplanes and airports.
10:41:29  <norbert79> b_jonas: Yet it would depend on the avaialbility of the different facilities being accessible, like schools, stadiums, bars...
10:41:35  <norbert79> in each town/city
10:41:42  <norbert79> the more places the more expenses
10:43:29  <Korenn> norbert79: instead of stations in town you'd build safe-houses. and fund processing labs
10:43:38  <norbert79> lol
10:43:52  <norbert79> ok, this is getting a bit being too much :)
10:44:14  <norbert79> starts reminding me on SWAT 4 TSS :)
10:44:31  <Korenn> given how well GTA does, if you'd make a good mod you could even sell it for money ;)
10:44:52  <norbert79> haven't played GTA since GTA 2..
10:45:08  <norbert79> lost track of it
10:45:48  <b_jonas> Korenn: a mod? doesn't GTA already have drug trafficking?
10:46:04  <b_jonas> I thought drugs were the main point of the story
10:47:35  <Korenn> b_jonas: sure, but in ottd it would be more of a SIMS game ;
10:47:37  <Korenn> ;)
10:47:41  <Korenn> SIM*
10:48:22  <b_jonas> you know, I think ottd doesn't go well with that kind of story
10:48:54  <b_jonas> just think of Settlers of Catan: none of the official expansions have military nor much destroying the opponent's property
10:49:00  <b_jonas> there are unofficial mods, but not much played
10:49:23  <b_jonas> similarly, ottd is a peaceful game. adding violence or drugs just doesn't work with it.
10:49:59  <Terkhen> yup
10:50:04  <norbert79> Well, I liked Amnesia - The dark descent, and the fact, that the player cannot fight back.. a mod doing just like that would just make it less interesting.
10:50:31  <appe> uuh
10:50:33  <Korenn> b_jonas: it would work just fine. it would become a different setting and themed game, but it would work fine.
10:50:40  <appe> that game f*cked up my mind.
10:51:06  <Korenn> Tropico is more in that direction and is also a peaceful game, even though it has military presence
10:51:10  <appe> openttd is a serious game. please don't fuck it up with unrealistic shit.
10:51:12  <appe> thank you.
10:51:15  <appe> tropico!!
10:51:15  <norbert79> appe: Well, I loved it, I also like Undying too, where both were as scary as the other
10:51:16  <appe> <3<3<3
10:51:28  <Korenn> appe: that's ridiculously narrowminded
10:51:36  <appe> amnesia wasnt scary, it litteraly made my body switch poop side.
10:51:43  <b_jonas> Korenn: maybe if you keep just the engine core and transform it completely like roller coaster tycoon
10:52:13  <Korenn> it wouldn't need much changing to work - but yes, it wouldn't be ottd anymore :)
10:52:23  <norbert79> appe: :] ... Oh well, I was also scared when I first was attacked by a grunt... But then I managed it
10:52:54  <appe> Korenn: hows that. im narrowminded because i like the game as it is? :>
10:54:22  <appe> i hope you didnt missunderstand me, im simply tired of games trying to build itself on 'cool' elements
10:54:39  <Korenn> it's narrowminded to shoot down ideas that go in other directions because it's not what you know
10:54:41  <b_jonas> appe: I see
10:54:41  <norbert79> appe: Wolfenstein 3D had a killcam. That was cool :)
10:54:45  <appe> like drugs, drive-by's, zombies, tits or the war in iraq.
10:54:48  <Korenn> ALL games dev does that ;)
10:54:52  <V453000> [12:51] <appe> openttd is a serious game. please don't fuck it up with unrealistic shit. <- the unrealistic shit is the only thing which fucks openttd up so far ;)
10:55:21  <V453000> *I mean realistic
10:55:23  <V453000> you get the point ..
10:55:44  <b_jonas> that's true to many games
10:55:50  <norbert79> appe: Still, Max Payne somewhow still made it look awesome...
10:55:54  <b_jonas> trying to add realistic to it often makes it worse
10:55:59  <__ln__> did you just say the f word?
10:56:05  <appe> Korenn: ah, i didnt really shoot down on any idea, i tried to emphasize how i love the game as it is.
10:56:06  <b_jonas> if it's too much realistic at least
10:56:09  <appe> norbert79: horrible.
10:56:19  <appe> V453000: true.
10:56:31  <norbert79> appe: Why? The best game I have ever played, I loved each moment of the story...
10:56:43  <norbert79> appe: it bases itself on returning elements, still...
10:57:18  <norbert79> appe: Ok, it has no zombies, unless Jack Lupino could be called that
11:03:02  <Terkhen> http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/town.png <--- there must be some better way to show this
11:04:39  <norbert79> hmm, small fonts would make it unreadable
11:04:49  <norbert79> what about symbols?
11:04:54  <appe> norbert79: that's of course a personal reference of mine. i cant get my head around shoot-stuff-in-awesome-graphics-games.
11:05:02  <Yexo> Terkhen: imo that grf makes little sense. "steel or water"?
11:05:11  <Yexo> "iron ore or livestock"?
11:05:17  <Yexo> I don't see coherence at all
11:05:27  <appe> what grf is that?
11:05:29  <Terkhen> the grf makes no sense at all, it is a hacked example so I have multiple cargos with the same town effect
11:05:30  <norbert79> Yexo: Either the town goes heavy industry or farming...
11:05:33  <appe> never seen iron ore be supplied to a town before.
11:05:53  <Yexo> norbert79: so a town in desert will grow when you provide coal and steel?
11:05:58  <Yexo> or oil and livestock?
11:06:27  <Terkhen> just imagine that they are cargos that make sense... I'm just trying to find a better way to display cargos required for growth when you have many with the same town effect
11:06:33  <norbert79> Yexo: Well, currently it doesn't differ too much from current solution in my opinion, so it is a bit more advanced anyhow
11:07:26  <Terkhen> what I want to know is: how to display that you already supplied the town with one of the required town effects?
11:12:43  <norbert79> Terkhen: Why don't you just remove that resource?
11:12:51  <norbert79> Terkhen: Why listing something, when delivered?
11:13:08  <norbert79> Terkhen: (I mean from the list)
11:13:08  <Terkhen> because you don't need all of them, you need a single unit of one of those cargos
11:13:33  <norbert79> Terkhen: Sure, then you would just remove the one, which is equally satisfy the town
11:13:35  <Terkhen> if for example you have two food-like cargos, delivering either is fine for town growth
11:13:48  <norbert79> sure, then you would remove both food and water for example
11:14:00  <norbert79> if need rises, then it will be shown again
11:14:25  <Terkhen> I would prefer a more clear feedback of what is happening
11:14:37  <Terkhen> removing the strings will be confusing
11:14:42  <norbert79> why?
11:14:51  <norbert79> Need changes, right?
11:14:59  <norbert79> Eh, let me ask that different
11:15:12  <norbert79> the need for different resources is flexible, right?
11:15:27  <norbert79> sometimes wood is needed, but then later on water might be the issue
11:15:35  <Terkhen> no
11:15:48  <Terkhen> you just need a single unit of either cargo in each list
11:15:49  <norbert79> and then wood might come up again
11:15:54  <norbert79> oh
11:15:58  <Terkhen> if the first list is "fast food or healthy food"
11:16:03  <Terkhen> delivering a simple unit of fast food is enough
11:16:11  <norbert79> The marking it green and red where the resources is needed
11:16:29  <norbert79> why not continous supply?
11:16:30  <Korenn> color only is not good enough
11:16:37  <norbert79> why Korenn ?
11:16:37  <Korenn> for color blind people
11:16:40  <norbert79> true
11:16:43  <norbert79> ok, checkmarks
11:16:44  <Terkhen> norbert79: fixing how town growth works is outside of the scope of this patch
11:16:54  <Terkhen> this is just displaying stuff, fixing town growth will come later
11:17:03  <Terkhen> and yes, colours are not an option
11:17:30  <Terkhen> right now, it just displays the number of units delivered if you did it, but that's not an option when you have multiple types of cargos
11:18:42  <Korenn> colors are still nice. but shouldn't be the only way of displaying
11:18:53  <norbert79> why not listing it under each other, and mark it with a checkmark when satisfied need
11:19:02  <norbert79> the need
11:19:20  <planetmaker> we should replace all colours by dark green or dark red
11:19:28  <planetmaker> makes for a good UI and game experience
11:19:32  <Korenn> Terkhen: you could go 'Steel delivered' when the demand is satisfied. It's not strictly necessary to show all the possible cargoes when the demand has been met
11:19:44  <Terkhen> Korenn: there is no way to tell which cargo you delivered :)
11:19:55  <Korenn> true
11:19:59  <Korenn> Town Effect name?
11:20:07  <Terkhen> I could add it, it's going to be added later anyways
11:20:26  <Terkhen> planetmaker: the darker the colors, the more likely it becomes that I confuse them :P
11:20:47  <norbert79> Terkhen: Oh, I guess Tron-GRF would be not your thing then :)
11:21:00  <__ln__> norbert79: we do not speak of Tron
11:21:11  <Terkhen> giving town effects names is IMO a bad idea... if they don't have names NewGRF authors will be able to do whatever they want with them
11:21:19  <Terkhen> so it's better if we can avoid it
11:21:58  <Terkhen> I like the "list all delivered cargos" suggestion, and it also uses info that I would need anyways for what I'm planning
11:22:14  <Terkhen> yesterday, someone (I don't remember who, sorry) suggested to show all cargo stats in a separate window
11:22:23  <Terkhen> I think that would be a good idea
11:22:43  <Terkhen> it would show all cargos delivered and produced in the town
11:29:48  *** hanf [~Klaus@host-89-242-75-83.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
11:30:31  <Korenn> Terkhen: if they have names, those could also be changed by a grf
11:30:50  <Terkhen> yes, but if they don't have names, we don't need the additional work to provide tools to change them
11:31:14  <Korenn> a separate window would be acceptable, as long as there's still a quick overview in the main window where you can see if all demands have been met or not
11:31:30  <Terkhen> that's what I want, a way to display demands simply in the main window
11:31:42  <Terkhen> a long string between () is not that good IMO
11:32:13  <Korenn> At its simplest, a 'Town demands have been met' string would suffice, if the rest of the info is available elsewhere
11:32:57  <planetmaker> "citizens celebrate the 'day of the transport tycoon'"
11:34:04  <Terkhen> http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/town.png <--- hmm... what about just changing "required" with "delivered last month"
11:35:32  <planetmaker> my suggestion: Required cargos: name1 [x], name2 [ ], name3 [x], ...
11:35:57  <planetmaker> where [x] indicates delivered and [ ] not yet delivered. Names could additionally be colour-coded
11:36:13  <planetmaker> and [x] could be the actual checkbox
11:36:29  <Korenn> Terkhen: or 'supplied'
11:36:48  <Terkhen> planetmaker: that will lead people to think that they need all cargos for growth
11:36:58  <Terkhen> but you only need one unit of either of them
11:37:05  <Korenn> planetmaker: there are different cargo groups that are all required, but inside the group it's an OR relation
11:38:21  <planetmaker> Then make such line for each such group :-)
11:38:31  <planetmaker> I didn't see groups in the screenshot and soley went by that
11:38:54  <Terkhen> there are two groups in the screenshots
11:39:00  <Terkhen> the first line is "food" and the second one "water"
11:39:41  <planetmaker> then I looked too sloppily and thought one is the cargos which are to be delivered and the other which are already
11:39:49  <planetmaker> might thus be a bit confusing in that representation
11:39:56  <Terkhen> that's the problem, I don't feel that the visualization is clear enough
11:40:24  <planetmaker> One of: blah, bluh, blub
11:40:37  <planetmaker> One of: nix, dies, das (already supplied)
11:40:57  <norbert79> or (supplied)
11:41:16  <planetmaker> already delivered
11:41:31  <norbert79> I think 'already' makes it unnecessary long
11:41:31  <Terkhen> the "last month" bit is important too
11:41:47  <Terkhen> so you get the idea that you need to deliver every month
11:42:02  <planetmaker> Cargo needed monthly for town growth:
11:42:06  <planetmaker> problem solved
11:42:06  <norbert79> Delivered so far this month: that, this, thus
11:42:20  <planetmaker> then the cargo lines don't need it again
11:42:31  <norbert79> yeah, good plan
11:43:09  <norbert79> doesn't differ too much from my original idea ;-)
11:43:11  <Terkhen> Delivered: cargo1, cargo2 or cargo3 <--- I'm not sure about that
11:43:22  <Terkhen> I like the monthly bit on the title, I'll change that
11:44:33  <norbert79> basically it's the same, when I said you should remove the cargo which has been delivered already
11:44:51  <norbert79> :P
11:45:05  <Terkhen> norbert79: you don't need all the cargos, delivering only one of them is fine
11:45:13  <planetmaker> nah. IMHO all cargo needs to remain written
11:45:30  <Terkhen> removing the one you delivered does not help the user, as he can't easily know which cargo he delivered or if he fulfills the requirements or not
11:45:53  <planetmaker> yes. And I might want to check it. Acceptance, requirements etc might change
11:46:00  <norbert79> Terkhen: Sure, but since requirements for cargo changes each month, the list is being filled up again
11:46:03  <planetmaker> And I won't see that when the strings get removed
11:46:17  <Terkhen> so you need to wait for a month to know for sure?
11:46:35  <planetmaker> norbert79, and then have the info removed on the 2nd of the month again?
11:46:42  <planetmaker> that'd be VERY bad behaviour
11:46:55  <norbert79> well, some timeframe would be nice... Each month the list would be filled wiuth requirements, when fulfilled, removed, and then a new check would come in the next month
11:47:11  <planetmaker> we're only talking about the display
11:47:14  <norbert79> but it's just an idea. I would treat it like a list for buying groceries
11:47:22  <planetmaker> that e.g. the colour of the delivered cargos changes - great
11:47:28  <norbert79> each month I make a new list, but some items reappeart
11:47:29  <norbert79> -t
11:47:31  <Terkhen> again: you don't need all cargos
11:47:40  <Terkhen> we are trying to display if you fulfill town growth requirements or not
11:47:50  <Terkhen> and you fulfill them with just a single unit of each list
11:48:01  <norbert79> exactly. I also only list things which I need to buy every month, and not add everyone
11:48:03  <planetmaker> I keep up my suggestion. Per batch of cargos display one line:
11:48:16  <planetmaker> One of: cargo1, cargo2, cargo3, ...
11:48:20  <norbert79> everything... Damn I am bad with my English today
11:48:27  <planetmaker> where the actually delivered cargos are displayed in a different colour
11:48:29  <Terkhen> norbert79: how would you list "we need a single unit of either cargo1, cargo2, cargo3 or cargo4"?
11:48:50  <Terkhen> I'm not sure about the colours
11:48:57  <Terkhen> hmm...
11:49:07  <Terkhen> which colour could they use?
11:49:21  <planetmaker> red and green
11:49:22  <norbert79> Town needs resources of: cargo 1, cargo 2, cargo 3... Now if you fulfilled cargo 3 for the given month, until the end of the month it would be removed, but if again needed, reappear in the requirement list...
11:49:35  <planetmaker> or normal white and green for delivered
11:49:36  <Terkhen> norbert79: if you fulfill cargo 3, you fulfilled all of them
11:49:37  <norbert79> like a grocery list
11:49:39  <Terkhen> as you only need one of them
11:49:42  <norbert79> oh
11:49:51  <norbert79> why?
11:49:56  <Terkhen> because that's how the game works
11:50:04  <Terkhen> as I said, this patch does not try to change town growth yet
11:50:14  <Terkhen> just to display the vanilla way clearer
11:50:22  <planetmaker> norbert79, as you only can either eat a burger, a pizza or a döne
11:50:25  <planetmaker> *döner
11:50:37  <planetmaker> thus demand is met with one type of food
11:50:40  <norbert79> Call it Gyros, that's more known outside of Germany :)
11:50:46  <norbert79> but I got you
11:50:52  <planetmaker> norbert79, Gyros != Döner
11:50:52  <norbert79> hmm
11:51:01  <planetmaker> kebab maybe
11:51:08  <norbert79> planetmaker: I know, but many places around here don't
11:51:25  <norbert79> anyway, I get it
11:52:11  <Terkhen> hmmmmm
11:52:16  <norbert79> Town needs one type of the following resources to grow:
11:52:30  <Terkhen> I'm still not convinced, I think we are missing something
11:52:54  <norbert79> well, planetmaker's example made it clear, but since resources are not from the same type
11:52:59  <norbert79> we need to have them listed
11:53:11  <norbert79> like Water != Coal
11:53:15  <norbert79> no connection
11:53:21  <norbert79> you cannot say: liquids
11:54:34  <norbert79> grouping the resources would be nice, but not possible: "Location needs one type of resource to grow further:"
11:55:38  <planetmaker> Terkhen, I think the way you showed with more explicit wording will work
11:55:44  <norbert79> Casear 3 showed detailed messages, yet there was always just one resource/need to get satisfied
11:56:01  <Terkhen> which wording? :)
11:56:15  <Terkhen> right now I have:
11:56:16  <Terkhen> {ORANGE}Required: {RAW_STRING}{BLACK} (only in winter)
11:56:21  <Terkhen> {ORANGE}Delivered: {RAW_STRING}{BLACK} (only in winter)
11:56:30  <Terkhen> (and the versions without the winter addition)
11:56:44  <Terkhen> oh, and
11:56:45  <Terkhen> {BLACK}Cargo needed monthly for town growth:
11:57:04  <planetmaker> That's where I like to suggest to not prefix it by "Required" or "Delivered" but always by a "One of: "
11:57:20  <planetmaker> and postfix the string with (delivered) and / or (only in winter)
11:57:49  <planetmaker> hm.. In winter one of:
11:58:11  <norbert79> "One of:" might be misleading, making users think they would only need 1 tons/litres/whatever
11:58:15  <planetmaker> that makes clear that it is a continuous demand. And the info which is fulfilled comes after the primary information of "you need this"
11:58:23  <planetmaker> norbert79, which is true
11:58:27  <Terkhen> norbert79: you only need 1 ton / litre / whatever
11:58:35  <norbert79> oh
11:58:42  <norbert79> then it's solved :)
11:58:43  <Terkhen> yeah, the system is braindead as that :P
11:58:58  <planetmaker> even. If we change that, the string is easily changed to
11:59:04  <norbert79> for now, yes, but it might be changed futher on.
11:59:07  <norbert79> true
11:59:08  <Terkhen> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/636/
11:59:17  <planetmaker> One of: butter (12t), coke (200l), peanuts (20t)
11:59:28  <Terkhen> nah, town growth will not change
11:59:34  <planetmaker> newgrf :-P
11:59:47  <norbert79> STR_TOWN_VIEW_CARGO_FOR_TOWNGROWTH_REQUIRED_SUPPLIED_WINTER     :{ORANGE}One of: {RAW_STRING}{BLACK} (delivered)
11:59:53  <planetmaker> but that might be a condition too far
11:59:57  <Terkhen> newgrfs should have the option to remove the default view and substitute it with their own
12:00:05  <Terkhen> then you can do whatever you want
12:00:07  <norbert79> hmm, delivered, and "winter delivery"
12:00:08  <planetmaker> :-)
12:00:28  <Terkhen> is the winter info really necessary if you are delivering anyways?
12:00:41  <norbert79> Why is STR_TOWN_VIEW_CARGO_FOR_TOWNGROWTH_REQUIRED_SUPPLIED_WINTER there then?
12:00:41  <planetmaker> I'd add it
12:00:59  <planetmaker> In winter one of: {RAW_STRING} (delivered)
12:01:14  <Terkhen> winter delivery does not say "you only need to deliver in winter"
12:01:36  <norbert79> I like planetmaker's approach
12:01:38  <planetmaker> but it should ;-)
12:01:52  <planetmaker> delivery in summer has no influence
12:01:58  <norbert79> In winter, one of:
12:02:36  <Terkhen> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/637/
12:02:54  <norbert79> Nice
12:03:05  <Terkhen> it's missing the correct colour tags of course
12:03:23  <norbert79> need would be marked with yellow, and when satisfied with green
12:03:28  <norbert79> imho
12:03:40  <norbert79> red would look make your eyes hurt... or yellow and black
12:03:41  <planetmaker> what can I say :-) I hardly argue against my own suggestions ;-)
12:04:02  <Terkhen> I'd prefer to avoid colours
12:04:03  <planetmaker> colour can be added any time
12:04:11  <planetmaker> well, some colour makes sense
12:04:15  <Terkhen> they are not clear, and the window would need a tooltip then
12:04:27  <planetmaker> currently the season info is a different colour. But that's not needed
12:04:34  <norbert79> yellow and black would be nice though, like when you turn on a lamp, and turn it off
12:04:34  <Terkhen> if the window needs a tooltip, you would need to change it for NewGRFs
12:04:41  <planetmaker> but I'd like the cargo to be of different colour
12:04:51  <planetmaker> should the colour code then go into that string here?
12:04:54  <Terkhen> cargos orange, txt black
12:05:04  <norbert79> yes
12:05:14  <Terkhen> as it was already
12:05:16  <planetmaker> Terkhen, then the {ORANGE} is wrong
12:05:23  <Terkhen> yes, I said that the tags are wrong :)
12:05:24  <Terkhen> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/638/
12:05:29  <planetmaker> oh, sorry, missed that
12:05:31  <norbert79> no, I mean text black, cargo needed yellow, when satisfied turning it to black
12:05:53  <planetmaker> that's a good colouring scheme, yes
12:06:03  <Terkhen> norbert79: then you need a text explaining that colour scheme, probably in a tooltip
12:06:05  <planetmaker> removing the colour highlight
12:06:21  <planetmaker> Terkhen, no... the text, as is, needs not be changed for that
12:06:23  <Terkhen> after that, once that OpenTTD allows to change the town growth scheme to "anything", you will need to change the tooltipt oo
12:06:44  <Terkhen> how will I know that cargo needed is yellow and satisfied is black?
12:07:04  <planetmaker> well, what's wrong with adding that to the tooltip
12:07:12  <planetmaker> and making the tooltip newgrf-exposed?
12:07:16  <norbert79> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/639/ - my proposal
12:07:31  <planetmaker> or part of it
12:07:49  <Terkhen> norbert79: http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/town.png
12:07:55  <Terkhen> the rest of the "normal" text in the window is black
12:07:58  <Terkhen> in most windows actually
12:08:13  <norbert79> Sure, that's why the title would be white
12:08:21  <norbert79> but wanted to emphasize a bit
12:08:28  <norbert79> so I am not misunderstood
12:08:55  <planetmaker> Terkhen, changing colour from yellow to black for delivered cargos also allows to see which of the cargos triggered the "delivered"
12:09:31  <Terkhen> it also needs storing that information in the town (currently you only store the town effect amount received)
12:09:43  <Terkhen> adding that information to savegames and adding the tooltip
12:10:10  <planetmaker> hm, I thought it is stored anyway which cargo has been deliverd?
12:10:16  <planetmaker> or only which towneffect fulfilled?
12:10:22  <Terkhen> town effect fulfilled
12:10:28  <planetmaker> I see.
12:10:43  <planetmaker> then I withdraw that suggestion until the cargos are available anyway
12:10:51  <Terkhen> that info will probably be needed for town growth NewGRFs, yes
12:11:07  <Terkhen> but adding it now just for clarity is IMO not a priority
12:11:19  <planetmaker> I'm sure it's an info which players *will* want. I'd want it
12:11:25  <planetmaker> yes, agreed
12:11:43  <planetmaker> I thought you had that info already
12:11:58  <planetmaker> then just change the cargo colour from yellow to black when the effect is fulfilled
12:12:02  <Terkhen> I want that too, but adding 32 int32 for each town just for that is not good :P
12:12:04  <planetmaker> i.e. remove the highlight
12:12:18  <Terkhen> IMO adding (delivered) is clearer
12:12:24  <planetmaker> Terkhen, both.
12:12:32  <planetmaker> I don't argue against the 'delivered'. I want that
12:12:50  <planetmaker> But colour is faster visible than reading text
12:13:05  <Terkhen> http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/town.png <--- all "information" in the window is orange, why should it change to black? the important part of the info will not be highlighted then
12:13:09  <planetmaker> I get the info w/o reading a single letter when colour changes
12:13:46  <planetmaker> The important part will still be highlighted: the missing cargo
12:14:09  <Terkhen> which missing cargo?
12:14:22  <norbert79> planetmaker: I would still highlight the line of "Cargo needed for growth", since we want to tell the player: Hey, I need this
12:14:24  <appe> i see what u did thar
12:14:31  <appe> *trollface*
12:14:31  <norbert79> planetmaker: Making it white
12:14:49  <planetmaker> Terkhen, I want the yellow text only as long as the cargo is still required that month
12:14:55  <Terkhen> why should this information be "special"? all lists of information in OpenTTD follow the same black/orange pattern
12:14:57  <planetmaker> if it is not required anymore, then black
12:15:17  <planetmaker> yes. They still do. But highlight the important thing: the required part
12:15:25  <planetmaker> I'm not that much interested in what I have delivered
12:15:34  <norbert79> or anyone else
12:15:50  <Terkhen> I'm not interested in the design year for vehicles either, but it also appears orange for consistency
12:15:51  <norbert79> it matters what I have to/can deliver
12:15:54  <planetmaker> it also wouldn't break any pattern
12:16:24  <Terkhen> check any window with a list of fields :P
12:16:53  <Terkhen> they all follow the black/orange pattern (in some cases black/light blue)
12:17:01  <norbert79> even town info?
12:17:06  <planetmaker> yes
12:17:07  <norbert79> all data
12:17:10  <norbert79> hmm
12:17:12  <Terkhen> yes
12:17:31  <norbert79> well, I would still prefer getting the cargos highlighted which I need to deliver
12:17:34  <planetmaker> Terkhen, I know that. But *all* those lists are just info on something which never changes
12:17:37  <norbert79> and make it black when done
12:17:48  <planetmaker> this is a tri-state thing
12:18:04  <Terkhen> every other list displays information with text
12:18:06  <planetmaker> I don't think it's right to say it breaks consistency
12:18:17  <Terkhen> I don't see why we need to change it for this field
12:18:31  <planetmaker> Terkhen, for a better user experience, for a better UI
12:18:33  <norbert79> Terkhen: Which can be overlooked... If you don't highlight needed cargo, why listing delivered cargo at all?
12:18:38  <Terkhen> maybe because changing colours of stuff just confuses me usually
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12:18:53  <planetmaker> a quick glance with everything highlighted will always give me the wrong impression
12:19:24  <planetmaker> and as too many colours are not good, the good solution here is: "highlight the important, still needed stuff"
12:19:38  <planetmaker> I'm sure you could ask an UI expert and he'd agree with me ;-)
12:19:42  <Terkhen> why is knowing that you delivered cargo not important?
12:19:57  <planetmaker> because I want the town to grow?
12:20:05  <norbert79> exactly
12:20:07  <planetmaker> and it's not like that info becomes inaccessible
12:20:13  <planetmaker> it's just not highlighted
12:20:21  <Terkhen> so, if you deliver one of the cargos, you make them harder to read on purpose
12:20:34  <planetmaker> is black harder to read?
12:20:39  <norbert79> no, marking it yellow or white wouldn't make it to be read harder...
12:20:41  <Terkhen> it's not highlighted
12:20:55  <norbert79> even though even white letters have basic shadow
12:20:58  <Terkhen> therefore it's more complicated to tell the information from the title
12:21:06  <norbert79> it's perfect on the current coloured window
12:21:06  <planetmaker> eh?
12:21:18  <norbert79> Terkhen: Why don't you try it first?
12:21:25  <norbert79> Terkhen: Why not give it a try?
12:21:26  <Terkhen> I've already tried it
12:21:36  <norbert79> I only see the same window over and over again
12:21:40  <planetmaker> it's a big bonus on the UI :-)
12:21:49  <norbert79> you didn't paste any screenshots based on our proposal
12:21:53  <Terkhen> because uploading screenshots is a PITA
12:22:09  <norbert79> even though you don't like it, we might like it :)
12:22:15  <planetmaker> a small 'delivered' added somewhere is easily overlooked, the important information stuffed away in the last place (literally)
12:22:32  <Terkhen> a black line is overlooked, because every other line in the game has the information highlighted in a different colour
12:22:45  <planetmaker> which is ok. The black lines have been taken care of
12:23:10  <Terkhen> so it is not important to know that you delivered cargo to the town?
12:23:22  <planetmaker> it's less important than what I miss
12:23:28  <norbert79> No, we are just asying it's important to see, what's important, and the rest can stay black
12:23:31  <planetmaker> as the missing thing blocks my progress
12:23:36  <Terkhen> so why is that information less important than Max Reliability or Introduction Date?
12:23:43  <Terkhen> I want to display them black too, I don't need them
12:23:46  <planetmaker> you now compare apples and pears
12:24:01  <Terkhen> well, consistency is about comparing apples and pears :P
12:24:21  <planetmaker> as I explained: they are properties which have no state which changes
12:24:38  <planetmaker> displaying the reliability as colour code might make sense for < 30% or so. In red
12:24:53  <Terkhen> yes
12:25:01  <norbert79> Terkhen: Just try it for once please, and make a screenshot... Then compare the before and after... I am sure you will understand how well it will help people focusing on town needs, rather just on constructing
12:25:27  <Terkhen> norbert79: I'll take a screenshot just so you believe me
12:25:29  <Terkhen> I already tried it
12:25:35  <norbert79> thank you...
12:25:40  <planetmaker> Terkhen, when playing the game we try to solve problems
12:25:47  <norbert79> (Btw I use the built in fonttypes, no own ones)
12:25:50  <planetmaker> and the problem one can have with a town is
12:25:53  <Terkhen> planetmaker: the red example is wrong in this case
12:25:53  <planetmaker> - growth
12:25:57  <Terkhen> red gives you additional info
12:25:57  <planetmaker> - authority rating
12:26:02  <Terkhen> black only makes things harder to read
12:26:04  <norbert79> planetmaker: Which is always a huge problem for me
12:26:08  <Terkhen> because it is the same colour used for titles
12:26:19  <Terkhen> making something harder to read is not a good help
12:26:30  <planetmaker> Terkhen, then choose a 3rd colour
12:26:34  <norbert79> green
12:26:35  <planetmaker> But distinguish it
12:26:37  <planetmaker> green
12:26:48  <Terkhen> that's what I said when you suggested black...
12:27:00  <norbert79> Green for highlighting :)
12:27:02  <Terkhen> black + black is harder to read
12:27:04  <norbert79> not for completed
12:27:04  <planetmaker> sorry, I only read "I don't want colour" :-)
12:27:20  <norbert79> Terkhen: Still this is what I saw on your screenshots :))
12:27:22  <Terkhen> I want consistency
12:27:24  <planetmaker> then I've been arguing like Don Quichote
12:27:34  <norbert79> Terkhen: And people gameplay :)
12:27:38  <planetmaker> Terkhen, and I want a quick and easy to use GUI
12:27:55  <planetmaker> and not read every letter to see what I want to know
12:28:00  <Terkhen> we can have both :P
12:28:05  <Terkhen> my point is:
12:28:11  <planetmaker> Yes, if we can have three colours, all the better
12:28:12  <Terkhen> black + black -> I can't tell the title from the info
12:28:24  <Terkhen> so if I don't know for sure what's there, I need to read
12:28:30  <norbert79> no
12:28:31  <planetmaker> Using only two colours was a concession to you actually ;-)
12:28:33  <norbert79> this is how YOU do
12:28:41  <norbert79> but people just ignore such
12:28:54  <norbert79> and think on fast rounds
12:28:59  <Terkhen> what?
12:29:01  <norbert79> or where the network is way spread
12:29:07  <planetmaker> Terkhen, so: yellow for "needs delivery". green for "has been delivered"
12:29:09  <norbert79> people want information fast and quick
12:29:19  <Terkhen> norbert79: you misunderstood me
12:29:19  <norbert79> I would still make "delivered black"
12:29:23  <Terkhen> I want my information quick
12:29:47  <planetmaker> then you need to use different colours for text, needed cargo and delivered cargo
12:29:52  <planetmaker> three different ones
12:29:54  <norbert79> sure, but I also want only the information which helps me moving further...
12:30:20  <Terkhen> http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/town.png <--- that's why I don't want to read this blob of text because I can't tell the titles from the actual information
12:30:22  <planetmaker> colour is the quickest information way you can provide to a user
12:30:34  <Terkhen> exactly, that's why using black + black is a bad idea
12:30:37  <Terkhen> you remove information
12:30:47  <norbert79> Terkhen: No, way away from what I wanted to see.. wait...
12:30:52  <norbert79> Terkhen: need to GIMP it
12:31:00  <planetmaker> Terkhen, yes. We don't need to argue about black anymore. That's done
12:31:08  <Terkhen> he's arguing about black :P
12:31:13  <planetmaker> My preferred solution is 3 colours
12:31:17  <Terkhen> planetmaker: then we are back to the tooltip discussion
12:31:26  <planetmaker> Tooltip is fine
12:31:35  <Terkhen> I don't mind adding that tooltip, as long as we are not doing the per-cargo colours
12:31:52  <Terkhen> if all cargos are displayed in the same colours, then I don't mind it at all
12:32:04  <planetmaker> no. Just 3. "needed cargos", "delivered cargos" and the rest of the text
12:32:13  <planetmaker> all cargos of a single type
12:33:30  <planetmaker> thus the cargo colour of one line is consistently the same (as we can't distinguish cargos (yet))
12:34:07  <Terkhen> compiling...
12:34:39  <planetmaker> the colour for the cargo in different lines might of course differ
12:37:48  <Terkhen> http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/town.png <--- the colour I chose is horrible, but something like this
12:38:26  <norbert79> Terkhen: http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/930/town.png
12:38:53  <norbert79> Still consistent
12:38:59  <norbert79> but main points are highlighted
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12:39:13  <Terkhen> norbert79: I know you meant black only for delivered, the previous screenshot was a result of my hack
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12:39:29  <norbert79> Terkhen: Sure, I know, but wanted to share what I had in my mind
12:39:42  <Terkhen> it is not consistent: I need to read the line itself to see where the title (One of) ends and the information (the list of cargos) start
12:39:49  <Elukka> unrelated gratuitous train
12:39:49  <Elukka> http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Railway/br50.jpg
12:40:02  <Terkhen> with the usual way of displaying information, I can ignore the title (which I already know) and jump to the information
12:40:11  <norbert79> Terkhen: Don't agree, main necessary cargos are listed, I instantly know what I need to deliver
12:40:26  <norbert79> Terkhen: Since only "to be delivered" are highlighted
12:40:39  <norbert79> Elukka: Wonderful looking
12:40:47  <Terkhen> why aren't cargos already delivered important?
12:41:04  <norbert79> because the focus is on growth, not history
12:41:08  <Elukka> got it in the mail yesterday
12:41:13  <norbert79> but still good to know
12:41:44  <Terkhen> norbert79: do you agree that black
12:41:49  <Terkhen> + black is more complicated to read?
12:42:13  <Terkhen> that's the whole point of this discussion, not the relative importance of different fields
12:42:18  <Terkhen> at least for me
12:42:49  <norbert79> http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/town.png - this only makes my eye hurt, because I only want to know what to deliver...
12:43:03  <norbert79> Make it grey then
12:43:10  <norbert79> if black-black is a problem
12:43:16  <Terkhen> as I said when I pasted the screenshot, the colour chosen is horrible
12:43:20  <Terkhen> I just picked a random one
12:43:26  <Terkhen> green would be fine I guess
12:43:32  <Terkhen> err, grey, sorry
12:43:34  <norbert79> no, green has more focus, than yellow
12:43:37  <norbert79> ok :)
12:43:40  <norbert79> grey is better
12:43:49  <norbert79> lets try and see
12:43:59  <Terkhen> not today though, I had enough testing already
12:44:01  <Terkhen> bbl
12:44:04  <norbert79> sure
12:50:05  <Eddi|nichZuHause>  <@Terkhen> [...]the colour chosen is horrible <- said the colourblind guy? :)
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13:09:26  <Terkhen> Eddi|nichZuHause: that does not mean that I see on black and white...
13:10:20  <norbert79> greyscale that is
13:10:23  <norbert79> :)
13:10:24  <norbert79> I guess
13:10:53  <norbert79> it's like watching an old television with no colours, right?
13:11:33  <norbert79> ok, this was a dumb question, since how he should know different... ok, void it :)
13:12:24  <planetmaker> there is _many_ shades of colour vision and different facettes of what commonly is called "colour blind"
13:12:49  <Terkhen> I can see all colours
13:12:50  <planetmaker> I never know which colours my boss sees and which not ;-) I'm constantly surprised one way or the other
13:13:00  <Terkhen> I just confuse red and green when they are in dark tones
13:13:02  <norbert79> so it's more like mixing up colours
13:13:04  <planetmaker> or rather s/see/distinguish/
13:13:06  <Terkhen> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_blindness#Red.E2.80.93green_color_blindness
13:13:10  <Terkhen> read up if you are interested
13:13:17  <norbert79> Terkhen: Cheers
13:13:18  <Terkhen> real color blindness is quite rare
13:13:23  <planetmaker> yes
13:13:43  <norbert79> Terkhen: I am always a bit confused by the english term, in Hungarian we differentiate mixing colours and not seeing colours at all
13:13:47  <V453000> well at least you can be sure you are a male :P
13:14:01  <planetmaker> I just used that word in lack of a better one to describe reduced colour perception
13:14:12  <Terkhen> we just use daltonism
13:14:23  <planetmaker> never heart that word, tbh :-)
13:14:43  <norbert79> Terkhen: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Ishihara_compare_1.jpg - Which one is closer to your state, if you could point it out for me
13:14:56  <Terkhen> planetmaker: it's because that's what dalton had
13:15:47  <Terkhen> norbert79: I can see the number in all four images
13:16:03  <Terkhen> so... no clue
13:16:06  <norbert79> Terkhen: Weird, I cannot on the Protanope one, unless I focus enough :)
13:16:16  <Terkhen> besides, in theory I shouldn't be able to tell
13:16:18  <planetmaker> completely w/o context: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/640/ <-- the beauty of awk :-)
13:16:30  <norbert79> Terkhen: Sure, but still... You can blame one for asking :)
13:16:34  <norbert79> can't
13:16:39  <Terkhen> norbert79: I'm used to focus a lot, I don't need to put effort on it
13:16:42  <planetmaker> took me probably to write as long as hand-converting. But was more fun ;-)
13:17:20  <Terkhen> planetmaker: looks crazy
13:17:20  <norbert79> planetmaker: Lol, well, nice solution though
13:17:30  <norbert79> planetmaker: but some sed and awk could have helped :)
13:17:33  <planetmaker> do you know the problem, norbert79 ? ;-)
13:17:53  <norbert79> planetmaker: Just about understanding it :)
13:18:05  <planetmaker> cat ../../nfo/extra/extra-chars.pnfo | ~/scripts/glyph2nml > extra-chars.pnml
13:18:37  <norbert79> Ah, now I get it, cheers
13:18:56  <norbert79> basically listing using specific parameters
13:19:15  <planetmaker> basically converting some valid nfo to valid nml ;-)
13:19:20  <planetmaker> for a very specific case, though
13:20:00  <norbert79> well, the file writing wasn't included, but only through your command line :P :) I was looking at the code :)
13:23:04  <planetmaker> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/641/ <-- effect on the files
13:24:01  <norbert79> Well done, looks nice
13:24:25  <planetmaker> I guess I'll emply awk more often... I learnt quite a bit and it makes multi-line replacement etc quite easy as it seems
13:34:11  <Belugas> hello
13:35:54  <Korenn> Terkhen: I used {YELLOW} in my patch
13:36:05  <Korenn> subtle difference, but enough to jump out
13:36:46  <Terkhen> Korenn: ok, I'll try it too :)
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13:58:28  <norbert79> Hi Belugas... You always enter, when we are already exhausted :)
13:59:14  <peter1138> fnar
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17:35:59  * andythenorth is on an actual train
17:36:13  <__ln__> newgrf?
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17:45:13  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r23026 /trunk/src/lang/ (esperanto.txt latvian.txt):
17:45:13  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:13  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: esperanto - 4 changes by Ailanto
17:45:13  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: latvian - 53 changes by Parastais
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18:10:10  * andythenorth wants to try the french set
18:10:32  * andythenorth is in Swindon, but fortunately will soon be leaving
18:11:37  <Elukka> the city of roundabouts everywhere
18:11:40  <Elukka> it's like they just decided
18:11:44  <Elukka> more roundabouts
18:11:59  <Elukka> and at the center they put a roundabout that's five roundabouts combined and in every direction you may go there will be more rounadabouts
18:12:53  <andythenorth> it's very nice if you like roundabouts
18:21:47  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I am wondering about refactoring FIRS code
18:21:55  <andythenorth> it might be a good time to do that soon
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18:21:56  <Terkhen> again? :P
18:22:12  * planetmaker wonders what needs (again) refactoring
18:22:15  <andythenorth> refactoring names of constants etc
18:22:24  <andythenorth> refactoring == code tidy in this context
18:22:26  <planetmaker> I see little need
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18:22:53  <andythenorth> wondered if you'd say that :)
18:23:01  <planetmaker> but I also don't know what exactly you mean
18:24:10  <andythenorth> naming spritesets etc
18:24:30  <andythenorth> consistency in which macros are used
18:24:33  <andythenorth> that kind of thing
18:25:55  <planetmaker> it certainly can use a bit tidy up still in that respect.
18:25:57  <andythenorth> time will tell if I actually get motivated do it
18:26:31  <andythenorth> it's the right thing to do though
18:27:28  <Terkhen> http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/town.png <--- does it look good with yellow?
18:27:44  <andythenorth> looks ok
18:28:03  <Yexo> it looks the wrong way around
18:28:11  <Yexo> the yellow stands out more than the orange
18:28:22  <Yexo> so it draws attention to the cargo which you don't need to provide
18:28:28  <Yexo> instead of drawing attention to the cargoes you're missing
18:28:29  <andythenorth> what's the significance of each line?
18:28:47  <andythenorth> anyway, this 'one of' thing is nonsense :P
18:28:51  <planetmaker> I agree with yexo
18:28:53  <Terkhen> Yexo: I agree, let's see with gray
18:29:03  <planetmaker> Use a light gray
18:29:12  <Terkhen> andythenorth: "you need to deliver a unit of either of the following cargos for town growth"
18:29:39  <Yexo> andythenorth: in a game without newgrfs the first line would only contain "food" and the second line only "water"
18:29:39  <andythenorth> "it should be stockpiling, but without limits, but you shouldn't be able to deliver too much, and you should get rewarded for delivering lots, but you shouldn't be able to just deliver all the cargo once forever"
18:29:39  <andythenorth> :P
18:29:55  <Terkhen> I don't think that a different colour is necessary, but most people think that if you already delivered what you needed it should stand out :P
18:30:15  <Terkhen> it only fixes how cargos with different town effects are displayed
18:30:23  <Terkhen> so it does not fix town growth at all
18:30:26  <Yexo> Terkhen: what about swapping the yellow and orange?
18:30:35  <Yexo> yellow if not delivered, orange if delivered
18:30:37  <Terkhen> swapping would be fine by me
18:30:48  <Yexo> that was the only problem I had with the colors
18:30:53  <Terkhen> yellow seems to mean "something is wrong, fix it"
18:30:56  <Terkhen> and orange does not stand
18:31:03  <Terkhen> *out
18:31:08  <Terkhen> so it's better to use yellow for not delivered
18:31:10  <Yexo> exactly
18:31:37  <andythenorth> 'delivered' does not need to stand out.
18:31:40  <andythenorth> it's not information
18:31:47  <andythenorth> information is 'not delivered'
18:32:12  <Terkhen> so yellow for not delivered and orange for delivered
18:32:20  <Terkhen> exactly the contrary of what's in the screenshot
18:33:04  <andythenorth> :)
18:33:37  <Terkhen> bbl
18:35:57  <andythenorth> http://www.perceptualedge.com/articles/b-eye/choosing_colors.pdf
18:38:50  <Terkhen> that could work for me if I trusted my own eyes to choose colours that everyone else will like too
18:39:38  <Rubidium> I'd use transparent blue ;)
18:39:43  <andythenorth> I'd stick to what the game already uses
18:39:43  <andythenorth> orange, white, yellow etc
18:40:04  <andythenorth> shame there's no <blink> tag :P
18:40:14  <andythenorth> we should patch text drawing to add blink
18:40:26  <andythenorth> then we could have an advanced setting for 'blink rate' :P
18:40:34  <andythenorth> oh what joy
18:43:29  <Yexo> andythenorth: you could try the water colors for text?
18:43:42  <andythenorth> he
18:43:51  <andythenorth> or the level crossing colour
18:45:08  * andythenorth has had enough internets for today
18:45:11  <andythenorth> bye :)
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18:56:44  <Eddi|nichZuHause> what's wrong with the phrase "Also so eine abgrundtief dÀmliche Argumentation..."?
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18:57:19  <planetmaker> Eddi|nichZuHause: it's missing a ","
18:57:55  <planetmaker> I'm not sure about the capitalization of "abgrundtief". But probably correct
18:57:59  <Eddi|nichZuHause> i just got a "friendly warning" that such expressions are not accepted in the forum...
18:58:05  <planetmaker> I'm sure I perfectly answered past your real question ;-)
18:59:03  <Eddi|nichZuHause> by a mod that happens to coincide with the person i replied to
18:59:14  <appe> http://gyazo.com/b5f9e63512c6414d365b1c81eabaa676.png <- how come i cant build the industry here?
18:59:35  <planetmaker> He. That's... an interesting mix of responsibility then
19:01:40  <Eddi|nichZuHause> i replied that i don't quite understand what he means... neither did i personally insult anybody, nor did i use curse words
19:03:46  <Eddi|nichZuHause> btw.: "tief", and also the combination "abgrundtief" are adjectives, and as such are written lower case
19:04:18  <Eddi|nichZuHause> not sure where you want to put a comma
19:05:28  <planetmaker> Also, ...
19:08:03  <Eddi|nichZuHause> that puts the emphasis on a different place than i intended
19:08:15  <appe> what on earth
19:08:19  <appe> this grf confuses me
19:09:21  <Eddi|nichZuHause> too close to desert?
19:10:31  <Eddi|nichZuHause> haven't played with ECS in years... and tropic neither
19:11:20  <appe> can i create more green areas myself?
19:11:43  <Eddi|nichZuHause> only in scenario editor
19:11:49  <appe> i see
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19:25:30  <Eddi|nichZuHause> i'm bored and want to go home...
19:25:59  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r23027 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_text.cpp newgrf_text.h strings.cpp): -Fix: in some cases NewGRF string arguments were popped twice from the newgrf textstack
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19:34:36  <Eddi|nichZuHause> "Guess who was hacked today" - http://www.sueddeutsche.de/digital/datendiebstahl-bei-sony-hacker-knacken-kundenkonten-1.1160130 :p
19:38:08  <planetmaker> :-P
19:47:14  <Eddi|nichZuHause> is there some generic version-agnostic way to get the location of excel.exe?
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19:51:15  <frosch123> try "which ooffice"
19:51:29  <Eddi|nichZuHause> hehe :)
19:51:45  <Eddi|nichZuHause> but isn't it loffice nowadays?
19:52:31  <frosch123> might be, it was soffice before
19:52:40  <Eddi|nichZuHause> well, it'd probably suffice if i could tell python "open this .xls file with the standard associated program"
19:52:42  <valhallasw> Eddi|nichZuHause: cmd /k excel?
19:52:50  <SmatZ> Eddi|nichZuHause: again? ...
19:53:18  <blathijs> It's "libreoffice" on linux
19:53:19  <Eddi|nichZuHause> SmatZ: last time i settled for hardcoding the full path
19:53:21  <SmatZ> and yes, you are right, it's lo* now :)
19:53:54  <valhallasw> Eddi|nichZuHause: do you need to communicate with excel?
19:54:06  <SmatZ> [21:53:23] <SmatZ> Eddi|nichZuHause: again? ... <== I meant that sony hacker
19:54:07  <Eddi|nichZuHause> valhallasw: no, just open the file
19:54:15  <frosch123> i guess it is unlikely to become foffice :p
19:54:16  <Eddi|nichZuHause> SmatZ: ah...
19:54:19  <valhallasw> if not- try os.shell("start <filename>"), or popen("cmd /c start <filename>")
19:54:23  <SmatZ> Eddi|nichZuHause: start "file"
19:54:44  <SmatZ> frosch123: hehe :)
19:54:47  <Eddi|nichZuHause> aha. let me try that
19:55:18  <valhallasw> except it's not called .shell
19:55:31  <valhallasw> but os.system
19:58:55  <Eddi|nichZuHause> the cmd /c thing seems to work
20:03:02  <Eddi|nichZuHause> so... why does the python installer do not put python into the path?
20:03:58  <planetmaker> oh, a SmatZ :-)
20:04:00  <Rubidium> did you reboot after installing?
20:04:56  <Terkhen> if it put python into the path, closing the console and opening another should be enough
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20:08:49  <Wolf01> hello
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20:13:00  <Rubidium> Terkhen: I've seen it make a difference; some installers run some post install during the next boot
20:13:27  <Terkhen> hmm... that doesn't sound very helpful
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20:15:48  <Eddi|nichZuHause> no, i did not reboot...
20:23:34  <SmatZ> hello planetmaker :-)
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20:35:43  <Eddi|nichZuHause> what's the win7 way for listing known filetypes and their associated program?
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20:38:55  <planetmaker> g'night
20:38:56  <Yexo> control panel -> programs -> default programs -> set associations
20:43:38  <Belugas> Don't give up
20:43:44  <Belugas> cause you have friends
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20:58:08  <Eddi|nichZuHause> bÀh... i
20:58:12  <Eddi|nichZuHause> 'm really bored
20:58:18  <Eddi|nichZuHause> i'm out of here...
20:58:58  <Eddi|nichZuHause> where's the next fuel station?
21:00:20  <Terkhen> Next to a road
21:02:38  <z-MaTRiX> "Take your chance to use this open window..."
21:05:49  <Eddi|nichZuHause> ECoherenceWarning
21:06:14  <Eddi|nichZuHause> anyway... bye
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21:19:34  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:22:53  <Terkhen> good night
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23:31:46  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... so nothing happened in the past 2:30h
23:36:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: is there possibly some way i don't get 50 emails in a distance of 5 seconds, when someone mass-deletes files from a ticket?
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