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00:13:36 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 00:17:06 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 00:20:06 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-28-204-202.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:26:35 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFFBD0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:47:57 <Eddi|zuHause> kernel: [3308222.895852] ata1.00: device reported invalid CHS sector 0 <-- err, do i have to worry? 00:52:16 *** michi_cc [~michi@dude.icosahedron.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:53:18 *** michi_cc [~michi@dude.icosahedron.de] has joined #openttd 00:53:21 *** mode/#openttd [+v michi_cc] by ChanServ 01:11:28 *** Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 01:31:58 <z-MaTRiX> Eddi|zuHause<< well you could do a full test using smartctl 01:32:21 <z-MaTRiX> having some similar things with a 3 year old samsung 400GB PATA 01:32:28 <z-MaTRiX> was going 24/7 01:32:30 <Eddi|zuHause> DMA: mdma0 mdma1 *mdma2 udma0 udma1 udma2 udma3 udma4 udma5 <-- that doesn't look right either 01:32:39 <z-MaTRiX> drivenotready seekcomplete errors 01:32:59 <z-MaTRiX> do you have ata133 cable? 01:33:12 <z-MaTRiX> old 40wire cables doesnt support UDMA 01:33:41 <Eddi|zuHause> it's an 80 wire cable 01:33:51 <Eddi|zuHause> and it used to do UDMA 01:34:01 <Eddi|zuHause> up to the above error 01:34:05 <z-MaTRiX> then badsectors? 01:34:06 <Eddi|zuHause> which was apparently 3 days ago 01:34:22 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's just slower than usual 01:34:43 <z-MaTRiX> smart may tell whats goung on 01:34:44 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 01:34:45 <Eddi|zuHause> at least from what i can tell 01:34:56 <z-MaTRiX> maybe its dieing 01:35:27 <Eddi|zuHause> smartctl not saying anything interesting 01:35:58 <z-MaTRiX> smartctl -a /dev/sda 01:36:06 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that one 01:36:49 <z-MaTRiX> reallocated sector cound? 01:36:52 <z-MaTRiX> Hardware_ECC_Recovered ? 01:37:02 <Eddi|zuHause> 5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct 0x0033 199 199 140 Pre-fail Always - 1 01:37:23 <z-MaTRiX> that means badsector 01:37:26 <z-MaTRiX> disc is rotting 01:37:30 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't have Hardware_ECC_Recovered 01:37:48 <Eddi|zuHause> "1" is hardly an alarming figure 01:38:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, the drive is really old 01:38:13 <Eddi|zuHause> something 8 years-ish 01:38:22 <z-MaTRiX> well doesn mean much, my samsung seems to hide every reallocation 01:38:45 <z-MaTRiX> only using for temp storage for videos with md5sum 01:38:55 <Eddi|zuHause> 9 Power_On_Hours 0x0032 036 036 000 Old_age Always - 47436 01:39:00 <z-MaTRiX> haha 01:39:04 <z-MaTRiX> more than mine 01:39:11 <z-MaTRiX> Power_On_Hours 0x0032 100 100 000 Old_age Always - 32068 01:39:30 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 47436/24/365 01:39:31 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 5.41506849315 01:39:33 <z-MaTRiX> Hardware_ECC_Recovered 0x001a 100 100 000 Old_age Always - 4373817 01:39:46 <z-MaTRiX> and this means something noncool too 01:39:55 <Eddi|zuHause> 100 means everything is alright 01:40:08 <z-MaTRiX> UDMA_CRC_Error_Count 0x003e 200 200 000 Old_age Always - 2 01:40:20 *** Korenn [~kvirc@93-125-161-18.dsl.alice.nl] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/] 01:40:21 <z-MaTRiX> well it may be allright for samsung but not me 01:40:58 <z-MaTRiX> has some things like this in report 01:40:59 <z-MaTRiX> 84 51 78 47 2b 40 e7 Error: ICRC, ABRT 120 sectors at LBA = 0x07402b47 = 121645895 01:41:29 <z-MaTRiX> Extended offline Completed: read failure 90% 14303 30159187 01:41:44 <z-MaTRiX> but its magically gone... 01:41:49 <z-MaTRiX> not reallocated 01:45:15 <z-MaTRiX> never abused 01:45:19 <z-MaTRiX> roomtemp 01:45:26 <z-MaTRiX> low power on cycles 01:52:48 <z-MaTRiX> anyway you should get hitachi if you want quality 01:53:09 <z-MaTRiX> they have new superior technology since 2010 01:55:50 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-5d822c5f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 01:57:09 <z-MaTRiX> dont know if a power out can cause this during a read 01:57:10 <z-MaTRiX> 40 51 0c 11 60 c4 e9 Error: UNC 12 sectors at LBA = 0x09c46011 = 163864593 01:57:18 <z-MaTRiX> but probably 02:26:07 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-094-220-138-229.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 02:31:03 *** rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-143-114.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:42:19 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-5d822c5f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] 02:44:12 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B743BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 02:49:58 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B743BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:57:34 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:6823:ab51:d51:4ec3] has quit [Quit: bye] 04:27:36 <DDR_> Hi. So, I just bought 1100 ships in a multiplayer game, and now my copy of OpenTTD won't run fast enough to keep the network connection up. Anyone got any tips? 04:27:54 <DDR_> That doesn't rhyme with Shell the Clips'? 04:29:54 <DDR_> It's like, the dev version of OpenTTD comes with rivers, and they looked so empty... :P 04:32:59 <Mazur> THey do take up a shitload of processor time. 04:33:17 <Mazur> THew ships, rather than the rivers. 04:33:34 <Mazur> No fixed tracks, see? 04:56:01 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B743BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:56:27 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B74349.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:02:41 <FFLaguna> Mazur - I'm running the client, there's nothing excessive going on on my end 05:03:04 <FFLaguna> 60 trains, 5 road vehicles, and 1146 ships :P 05:03:56 *** George|2 [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 05:03:56 *** George is now known as Guest14659 05:03:56 *** George|2 is now known as George 05:09:30 *** Guest14659 [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:21:48 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 05:38:22 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0a9627.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:49:56 *** JVassie [~James@2.25.203.117] has joined #openttd 05:53:22 *** JVassie_ [~James@2.25.203.117] has joined #openttd 06:00:19 *** JVassie [~James@2.25.203.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:05:36 <planetmaker> moin 06:07:28 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 06:12:22 *** JVassie_ [~James@2.25.203.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:14:27 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 06:15:57 *** perk11 [~perk11@188.32.29.238] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 06:17:07 <TyrHeimdall> DDR_: I read that using bouys helps a lot, it reduces the ammount of possible routes a lot 06:17:35 <TyrHeimdall> space them out 06:18:23 <TyrHeimdall> I have another problem though; OpenTTD won't run over windows remote desktop :P It just crashes on startup 06:20:01 <planetmaker> DDR_: ship performance has been greatly improved in trunk. Mind that you then change the pathfinder to (the now default) yapf (away from npf) if you just update your openttd. 06:20:09 <planetmaker> still.... 1k ships is A LOT 06:20:41 <TyrHeimdall> would also like to se the possibility to close airports 06:20:53 <TyrHeimdall> its a lot of work to change from one type to the next :/ 06:32:01 <planetmaker> it is. yes 06:39:56 <DDR_> OK, thanks. 06:45:52 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@89.246.169.7] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:48:11 *** Celestar [~dax@89.204.137.67] has joined #openttd 06:48:24 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 06:48:29 <Celestar> \o 06:48:37 <planetmaker> 'lo 06:49:04 * Celestar goes getting openttd again 06:51:33 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 06:53:21 <Celestar> holy jesus 06:53:26 <Celestar> home partition full O_o 06:59:01 *** Celestar [~dax@89.204.137.67] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:59:07 *** Celestar [~dax@89.204.137.91] has joined #openttd 07:05:39 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 07:07:33 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest14672 07:07:33 *** Guest14672 [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:07:33 *** andythenorth_ [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 07:07:33 *** andythenorth_ is now known as andythenorth 07:20:53 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B290.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 07:21:12 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@vpn91.ext.espci.fr] has joined #openttd 07:27:38 *** Jabol [Jabol@77-253-0-203.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #openttd 07:28:08 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-178-004-186-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 07:37:43 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@vpn91.ext.espci.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:48:27 <planetmaker> hola andythenorth 07:49:15 <blathijs> Celestar: OpenTTD has gotten awesome nowadays! 07:49:39 <blathijs> (I recently spent a day "testing" my Debian build... ;-) 07:54:21 <planetmaker> :-P 07:55:00 <planetmaker> Rb yesterday compiled a changelog since 1.1 branch... At least half of the lines had a "[NewGRF]" in it :-) 07:55:57 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 07:59:04 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-175.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 08:00:06 <Ammler> is there something else than rivers? 08:00:39 <peter1138> OpenTTD is awesome now? Wasn't it? :S 08:03:44 *** Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 08:03:45 <planetmaker> http://rbijker.net/openttd/misc/changelog.txt <-- I hope he'll forgive me the quote 08:12:04 *** Markavian [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:13:35 <Ammler> planetmaker: which say 3 would you mention for users? 08:15:22 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 08:15:36 <Ammler> IMO, 1.2 will become the most boring upgrade :-) 08:17:16 <Sacro> omfg, it's Celestar :D 08:17:22 <Sacro> now we need DarkVator back 08:17:34 * andythenorth votes for DaleStan 08:20:51 <Celestar> heya Sacro :) 08:21:00 <Celestar> yo blathijs 08:21:46 <Celestar> what'S the status on cargodist? :P 08:23:26 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-2-96-18-199.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 08:23:45 <TyrHeimdall> cargodist? 08:23:51 * Sacro tries to recall what Celestar was last doing 08:24:45 <Ammler> Celestar: you missed yacd, but that seems stalled too 08:25:05 <planetmaker> Ammler, I'd mention each 08:25:12 <TyrHeimdall> oh btw; when trying to share orders between vehicles, why do I some times get an error saying its not possible? (don't remember the exact message now) 08:25:27 <Noldo> busses/lorries? 08:25:28 <Ammler> planetmaker: :-D :-P 08:25:38 <TyrHeimdall> planes mostly 08:25:49 <planetmaker> And I'm working on adding "Feature: Transparency setting for grid lines" 08:26:13 <planetmaker> it's 90% finished ;-) 08:26:39 <planetmaker> it needs a bit more quaking :-P 08:33:56 <Terkhen> good morning 08:36:07 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 08:40:51 *** LordAro [~lordaro@host86-156-236-122.range86-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 08:40:59 <LordAro> morning 08:41:25 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-175.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:43:02 <LordAro> phew, that wiki work was fun :) 08:48:57 <Celestar> Ammler: so cargodist died and yacd died? 08:49:19 <LordAro> oh! a Celestar :) 08:49:21 <Ammler> well, I used "stalled", not died :-P 08:49:31 <Celestar> (= 08:49:36 <Celestar> heya LordAro 08:50:07 <Ammler> rather yacd killed cargodist but is stalled now 08:50:48 <LordAro> Celestar: you probably won't know me, but i do a lot of delving into OTTD history :) 08:52:25 <Ammler> or maybe just "hidden" developing like we know from michi 08:54:41 <peter1138> yacd's nice 08:54:51 <andythenorth> yacd's nice 08:54:57 <andythenorth> but stuck on the CPU use issue 08:55:28 <peter1138> didn't notice it 08:55:36 <peter1138> but then i didn't play big games. hmm 08:55:58 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause 08:56:20 <DDR_> LordAro: Got any interesting historical tidbits? 08:57:25 <LordAro> well, i found the forum thread about the server 'loss' last night 08:57:36 <LordAro> and the versions went from 0.4.0.1 -> 0.4.5 08:57:44 <LordAro> which is a little odd 08:59:16 <Celestar> :) 08:59:28 <DDR_> Quite. 08:59:36 <LordAro> can you explain that, o ancient one? ;P 08:59:41 <Celestar> I still cannot believe we lost a whole repo :P 09:00:02 <DDR_> Explanation: Hard drugs. 09:00:08 <DDR_> Or maybe not. ;) 09:00:12 <LordAro> well, according to the thread, it got hacked, and was sending out spam 09:00:28 <Celestar> the server, yes. 09:00:32 <Celestar> but not the repo P 09:00:55 <Celestar> I think it was 970ish revisions 09:01:11 <LordAro> first commit say 974/5 methinks 09:01:21 <planetmaker> that's way before 0.4.x 09:01:28 <planetmaker> iirc around 0.2 / 0.1 or so 09:01:28 <Celestar> we.. 09:01:30 <Celestar> well 09:01:39 <Celestar> I have some VERY old code somewhere 09:01:57 <LordAro> oh, and tb 'hid' commit 10k - so no one got the 'honour' :) 09:01:57 <planetmaker> Probably my oldest code is around your newest code :-P 09:02:19 <planetmaker> commit 20k was fun :-) 09:02:20 <Celestar> rofl, about 09:02:31 <DDR_> Heh. 09:02:39 <planetmaker> I guess half the dev team watched :-) 09:02:57 <planetmaker> live. Not online 09:03:08 <DDR_> Wow! 09:03:24 <planetmaker> the r20k party was quite fun :-) 09:03:47 * DDR_ missed it. :( 09:03:53 <DDR_> Not being a dev and all. :P 09:04:00 * Celestar too 09:04:01 <planetmaker> 15 months ago... 09:04:16 <planetmaker> everyone was invited :-) you just didn't pay attention 09:04:17 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b29.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:04:27 <Celestar> I think 0.4.0.1 went to 0.4.5 because of Great New Feature (TM) 09:04:41 <LordAro> i didn't see anything in the changelog... 09:04:44 <DDR_> What? 09:04:59 <planetmaker> LordAro, it's a release tag of 1.0.x 09:05:14 <planetmaker> i.e. found in the 1.0 branch 09:05:23 <LordAro> r10k? 09:05:31 <planetmaker> no. r20k 09:05:37 <Celestar> LordAro: Vehicle Cloning :P 09:05:42 <LordAro> :) 09:06:01 <LordAro> massive 09:06:16 <DDR_> OH SWEET MERCY that was worth the bump in version number. 09:06:23 <Celestar> well. 09:06:31 <DDR_> Said the guy who just ended a game with 1100 ships. 09:06:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember the reasoning behind 0.4.5, but certainly "whoa, glad we finally got rid of these buggy PBS" was involved 09:06:37 <Celestar> it took a while to get it fixed, right? 09:06:42 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b29.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 09:06:53 <Celestar> 1100 ships? 09:06:56 <Celestar> the CPU manages that? :P 09:07:07 <LordAro> ships use YAPF noaw ;) 09:07:11 <DDR_> No. That's why I ended it. :P 09:07:19 <DDR_> Well, technically, the server's still going. 09:07:31 <DDR_> it's just not *my* cpu which can handle it. 09:08:00 *** Korenn [~kvirc@93-125-161-18.dsl.alice.nl] has joined #openttd 09:08:03 <DDR_> It was funny. 09:08:10 * LordAro should do a wiki page: Notable events in OTTD History 09:08:23 <DDR_> The rivers in the dev version make ships so much more accessible. :) 09:08:47 <planetmaker> LordAro, the road map? 09:08:53 <LordAro> shhh! don't mention rivers to andy! 09:08:57 <DDR_> Though I really could stand for a level dock. Building an inner-city dock takes up a good 9 or 10 tiles. :( 09:09:06 <planetmaker> LordAro, but... he drew them! 09:09:27 <LordAro> he did complain a bit :) 09:09:33 <DDR_> ? 09:09:35 <planetmaker> he does that ;-) 09:09:58 <planetmaker> luckily in an amiable fashion. 09:10:06 <LordAro> indeed 09:10:07 <planetmaker> And he works on overcoming his complaints code-wise :-) 09:10:16 <planetmaker> thus he may ;-) 09:10:19 <DDR_> He's not happy with rivers? 09:10:37 <planetmaker> DDR_, you need locks for every river slope to have ships pass there 09:10:43 <planetmaker> even at sea level to level one. 09:10:49 <DDR_> They are rather SC2K in their logic... *shrug* 09:10:51 <planetmaker> Which can be considered a bit unfortunate 09:11:08 <LordAro> [10:08:47] <planetmaker> LordAro, the road map? <-- no thiings that _have_ happened, e.g. repo loss, r10k, etc 09:11:29 <planetmaker> I wonder whether there isn't somewhere a history page. 09:11:33 <planetmaker> But sure, go right ahead 09:11:36 <DDR_> True. 09:11:38 <andythenorth> rivers suck 09:11:42 <andythenorth> exceedingly 09:11:58 <DDR_> I just routed 700 ships through a river and canal system. They're awesome. 09:12:27 <DDR_> If you're fixing them up, I'm looking forward to the improvements. :) 09:12:31 <peter1138> ah "just make it" ... 09:13:25 <peter1138> rivers are good 09:13:50 <LordAro> planetmaker: there is a "release history" page, which i'll probably link to 09:13:57 <LordAro> http://wiki.openttd.org/Special:Recentchanges 09:14:01 <LordAro> t'was fun 09:14:35 <planetmaker> he :-) 09:15:01 <LordAro> like i said, "i do a lot of delving into OTTD history :)" 09:15:12 <planetmaker> seems quite like :-) 09:15:21 <planetmaker> nice 09:15:46 <LordAro> ty :) 09:16:23 <LordAro> when i get _really_ bored, i might do a similar "history" page for tt-forums :) 09:16:45 <planetmaker> that's WAY more complex, I guess 09:17:16 <planetmaker> though it makes one wonder: what are the noticable 'events' for a forum? 09:17:58 <planetmaker> flame wars? Addition of <whatever> section? Mod appoint / leave. Ban of <whomever>? 09:18:03 <LordAro> well, the 'events' that mostly get talked about 09:18:08 <LordAro> in offtopic 09:18:13 <LordAro> yes, probably :) 09:18:26 <planetmaker> bah. off-topic. I don't read it ;-) 09:18:37 <LordAro> r's departure thread, for instance 09:18:48 <planetmaker> r? 09:18:56 <Eddi|zuHause> never looked into that forum either 09:19:10 <peter1138> who cares about someone leaving 09:19:17 <planetmaker> ^^ 09:19:43 <Terkhen> :P 09:19:45 <planetmaker> it's mostly a "I leave because you all suck" - and in reality just craving for attention 09:20:01 <LordAro> it wasn't quite like that though 09:20:02 <DDR_> Hm, even mod appointments are just the normal noise of a forum ticking over contentedly. 09:20:05 <LordAro> well, mostly :) 09:20:09 <planetmaker> at least those"departure discussions" I've ever seen 09:20:37 <LordAro> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=31838 09:20:47 <LordAro> quite sad, really 09:21:01 <DDR_> I guess addition of a category could be important. If half the community leaves, that's notable. But really, come to think of it, forums usually aren't that... interesting, as a thing. 09:23:07 <DDR_> LordAro: Yes, but a fairly nice quit message. 09:23:14 <DDR_> No swearing. :) 09:23:56 <Celestar> bac 09:25:11 <Eddi|zuHause> axe 09:28:22 <MINM> hmmmh, I wish it was possible to make heightmaps from scenarios 09:28:30 <Terkhen> MINM: use a nightly 09:28:55 <MINM> it is? 09:29:00 <Terkhen> yes 09:29:02 <planetmaker> :-) I love that advice, Terkhen :-) 09:29:12 <Eddi|zuHause> what was that again? "locate the existing implementation: 300$" 09:29:22 <planetmaker> around that. Yes 09:29:23 <Terkhen> I don't remember where, IIRC it is available from the scenario editor 09:29:37 <MINM> do want. 09:31:31 * MINM finally gets around to getting a nightly ottd 09:31:35 <andythenorth> whenever /me feels like 'quitting' it's just attention whoring 09:31:44 <andythenorth> usually solved by shipping something instead 09:32:39 <planetmaker> yeah, that usually helps me, too ;-) 09:32:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought you just say "i should remove supplies" in such cases :p 09:33:14 <Eddi|zuHause> you get at least 15 replies "please don't" each time :p 09:33:18 <andythenorth> that would be equally effective 09:33:26 <andythenorth> although my thinking about that was genuine :P 09:34:58 <planetmaker> I should find motivation to finally finish the new supply mechanism.... but I haven't yet found any 09:35:21 <MINM> augh 09:35:23 <andythenorth> :) 09:35:23 <planetmaker> nor did I find any in fixing parameters of swedish rails... 09:35:30 <MINM> wait, nightly means I need to compile, don't i? 09:35:32 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I have written very little code recently 09:35:35 <andythenorth> not sure why 09:35:44 <andythenorth> maybe 'OTTD is dying' 09:35:45 <andythenorth> :P 09:35:46 <planetmaker> andythenorth, newgrf code I haven't written much either 09:36:07 <planetmaker> But then... doesn't matter. Interest in improving / continuing something goes and comes :-) 09:36:19 <Eddi|zuHause> MINM: no, you don't need to compile 09:36:19 <planetmaker> some hiatus on some newgrf projects is not that bad 09:36:35 <planetmaker> MINM, that's why it's called "nightly" 09:36:44 <planetmaker> because they're built every night... 09:36:51 <planetmaker> (or rather evening) 09:37:09 <MINM> hmmmh 09:37:24 <MINM> then why did I get source when I clicked download? 09:37:47 <planetmaker> because you clicked wrongly? 09:38:26 <planetmaker> http://www.openttd.org/en/download-trunk 09:39:14 <planetmaker> download-nightly gives you iirc grfcodec's nightlies 09:39:25 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-2-96-18-199.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:39:42 *** KenjiE20 [kenjie20@free.blinkenshell.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:39:43 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:40:02 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-104-127.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 09:40:12 <andythenorth> planetmaker: (1) I should learn nml :P 09:40:20 <andythenorth> (2) we should release 0.7.x or 0.8.x for FIRS 09:40:24 *** Strid__ [~Strid@c-4cc7e455.04-372-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:40:24 <andythenorth> on Bananas 09:40:27 <planetmaker> yes 09:40:28 <MINM> well, I got that page, and I have a tarball with 64x ottd in it. 09:41:04 <Terkhen> MINM: there is a dropdown that allows you to select what you want, it should be set automatically to the best download for your OS, but if it's not, choose it manually 09:41:28 <planetmaker> if you, of course, expect a morphos binary or so, you're out of luck ;-) 09:41:31 <andythenorth> planetmaker: releasing on bananas means doing your suggestion of changing grfid 09:41:37 <andythenorth> that is well known now to be a sin 09:41:45 <planetmaker> not every esoteric OS is compiled for for nightlies 09:41:51 <andythenorth> sometimes good people have to do bad things :P 09:42:08 <MINM> does it contain a ready-built running ottd in the tarball? 09:42:16 <planetmaker> andythenorth, currently I'd advocate a bit patience, waiting for tb's re-design of the webpage :-) 09:42:32 <planetmaker> MINM, no... 09:43:14 <andythenorth> :o something is changing where? Bananas? Or openttd.org? 09:43:18 <Eddi|zuHause> MINM: that depends on what you actually downloaded (FULL name) 09:43:22 <MINM> so, Im in ubuntu, I've got openttd-trunk-r23050-linux-generic-amd64.tar.xz 09:43:27 <andythenorth> incidentally my site is down due to dead box 09:43:27 <MINM> now what do. >.< 09:43:38 <Terkhen> MINM: that's not souce, that's a binary 09:43:53 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that should contain an executable 09:44:01 <MINM> seriously, bear with me, I musn't have had enough tea yet today. 09:44:07 <Terkhen> ubuntu deb packages are only compiled for releases 09:44:14 <LordAro> MINM: i expected better of you ;) 09:44:15 <Terkhen> but the generic linux binary should work fine too 09:44:53 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-117-49.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:46:12 <MINM> ...so, it *is* a running version of OTTD in that folder. why did you say it isn't? 09:46:31 <peter1138> you said you had the source 09:47:49 <MINM> no, I thought that. I saw a tarball containing folders, I think I got a little too used to apt-get and software manager. 09:47:59 <MINM> my bad >.<; 09:48:10 <MINM> as I said, not enough tea! 09:48:22 <andythenorth> usual cause of failure 09:48:25 <LordAro> silly... :) 09:48:28 <andythenorth> people who've had enough tea don't screw up 09:48:49 <LordAro> my ottd nightly gets auto-updated, 'cos i'm cool :D 09:49:25 <MINM> when Im home alone I usually make a whole pot of tea and drink it all during the day 09:49:32 <MINM> ...i think I may have a problem. 09:50:23 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 09:53:28 <Sacro> i hate getting the ttd music stuck inm my head 09:53:57 <peter1138> heh 09:56:48 <MINM> http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/1/1/2248324/OTTD/screenshot.png 09:57:37 <peter1138> what about it? 09:58:01 <MINM> just thought Id throw it in here. 09:58:30 <MINM> it's a map Ive made so Ill have more use for aircraft and ships. 09:59:24 <MINM> should also provide for some interesting railway construction too, as there's some height differences in there 10:02:20 <peter1138> ah, k, thought you had a problem with it :) 10:02:40 <MINM> what do you think about it? 10:07:49 *** Jabol [Jabol@77-253-0-203.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:08:09 <peter1138> low snowline :) 10:10:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i used some snowline multiplicator hack 10:10:32 <Eddi|zuHause> to get the newgrf snowline in some sensible ranges 10:10:43 <planetmaker> MINM, it's relatively smooth. Too smooth for my taste 10:10:45 <Eddi|zuHause> problem is, the snowline "jumps" several heightlevels 10:11:09 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, what for do you need a "snowline multiplicator"? 10:11:11 <Eddi|zuHause> so tiles go from no snow to full snow 10:11:33 *** Strid__ [~Strid@c-4cc7e455.04-372-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd 10:13:57 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the hacky part is really simple, in GetSnowLine(), HighestSnowLine() and LowestSnowLine() you add a factor like "return _snow_line->table[ymd.month][ymd.day]*4-6*8;" 10:14:49 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, yes.... but what for? We have snowline level adjustment by the level...? 10:15:01 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but not for the newgrf snowline 10:15:19 <planetmaker> eh? 10:15:24 <planetmaker> how not? 10:15:35 <planetmaker> I can also via newgrf adjust the snowline by the level 10:15:38 <Celestar> *burp* 10:15:47 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes, but not to "more heightlevels" 10:15:50 <planetmaker> or are you talking about some patch? oh 10:15:56 <planetmaker> you should say so :-) 10:16:18 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i referred to the above picture, which obviously used that 10:16:28 <planetmaker> has it? 10:16:40 <planetmaker> I don't see anything unusual there 10:16:44 <Eddi|zuHause> it looked more than usual 10:16:50 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it was just my imagination 10:18:29 <Eddi|zuHause> btw, there's still a bug that the highest possible heightlevel is not actually generated 10:18:34 <Eddi|zuHause> due to some weird rounding issues 10:19:06 <Eddi|zuHause> causing mountain tops to be more flat than they have to 10:21:41 <Eddi|zuHause> some other oddities about snow lines: alpine climate farms, which stop production in winter, will never get generated in places where that matters, because on game start it's always january, so the initial industry generation always gets the lowest possible snow line 10:22:19 <planetmaker> yes... 10:22:31 <Elukka> andythenorth: ran into some stuff about an industrial tramway and thought you might be interested 10:22:32 <Elukka> http://marklin-users.net/cookee_nz/gasworkstramway/history.htm 10:23:19 <andythenorth> Elukka: this building is very TTD-like :) http://marklin-users.net/cookee_nz/gasworkstramway/02-atl-gasworks_entrance-c.jpg 10:23:32 <Elukka> indeed! 10:29:34 *** KenjiE20 [kenjie20@free.blinkenshell.org] has joined #openttd 10:30:33 <Eddi|zuHause> that is totally photoshopped! i can tell by the pixels! 10:38:20 <Celestar> *burp* 10:41:58 <MINM> it would be nice to have a treeline above which trees won't grow. 10:43:58 <V453000> empty land without trees is ugly :P 10:45:29 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: voxels 10:46:41 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a patch for that once 10:47:29 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 10:47:32 <Eddi|zuHause> but it would be way more "realistic" if the trees got smaller and smaller, not a "clean" cut 10:48:16 <peter1138> heh 10:48:25 <peter1138> yeah it the wrong way 10:48:40 <peter1138> start of the game shuld be heavily forested 10:48:43 <peter1138> and then... 10:49:03 <peter1138> alas, the penalties for felling would be the wrong way around 10:54:15 <Celestar> peter1138: did we ever complete custombridgeheads? :P 10:54:29 <planetmaker> you didn't, Celestar :-( 10:54:42 <Celestar> heh. 10:54:47 <Celestar> I know that I hit some blocker at some point. 10:54:55 <peter1138> something to do with reversing iirc 10:55:00 <Eddi|zuHause> afair you started the c++ port because cbh met a dead end 10:55:00 <Celestar> yeah. 10:55:05 <planetmaker> alegedly it's one of the features which keeps two of the remaining three ttdp players from switching :-P 10:55:06 <Eddi|zuHause> but then you never picked it up again 10:55:13 <peter1138> lol 10:55:22 <peter1138> when i wrote it it was a tiny patch :S 10:55:27 <peter1138> and it worked 10:55:27 <Celestar> something went really wrong with CBH + crossing bridges. 10:55:34 <Eddi|zuHause> SAC and who else? 10:55:43 <planetmaker> crossing bridges is a totally different topic 10:55:53 <peter1138> maybe i should look at it again 10:55:57 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, I don't recall. But iirc someone else wrote that, too 10:56:14 <blathijs> Celestar: Maybe we should have another try at rewriting the map arrays! ;-) 10:56:21 <blathijs> (not completely kidding) 10:56:31 <planetmaker> look at michi's implementation thereof :-P 10:56:37 <peter1138> there's a 3d map array somewhere 10:56:50 <planetmaker> http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/git/ 10:56:59 <Celestar> blathijs: ... what did we plan to do there? :D 10:57:01 <blathijs> peter1138: Somewhere meaning the old map-rewrite branch? 10:57:08 <peter1138> no 10:57:13 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 10:57:18 <peter1138> something smatz did iirc 10:57:44 <blathijs> Celestar: Separating the ground from the stuff built on top, and allowing multiple stacked tile at one (x,y) 10:57:54 <Celestar> blathijs: oh yeah. 10:57:54 <peter1138> http://devs.openttd.org/~smatz/3d/tunnel2.png 10:57:58 <Celestar> stations on bridges :D 10:58:13 <peter1138> bridges that exist ;) 10:58:23 <Celestar> gaha 10:58:28 <Celestar> didn't we remove them? :P 10:58:48 <Celestar> peter1138: where exactly is that from? 10:59:09 <V453000> oh noes SmatZ's tunnel stuff :D 10:59:17 <Celestar> what about it? 10:59:19 <blathijs> Celestar: Also, generally clean up the map array and add accessors, which turned out to be too much to do at once 10:59:21 <peter1138> it's from that link ;) 10:59:30 <peter1138> we did the accessors 10:59:45 <blathijs> peter1138: Yeah, that's why it might be good to do a second attempt :-) 11:00:04 <Celestar> yeah. 11:00:24 <Celestar> we could at some point, yeah... 11:00:53 <blathijs> The screenshot peter1138 linked looks nice 11:01:47 <peter1138> it's 3 years old, so it's pretty dead 11:01:49 <LordAro> "some point" < 12 months? 11:01:50 <V453000> I dare to say it is amazing :D 11:02:08 <peter1138> i don't know how well it worked, but it looks cool :) 11:02:10 <LordAro> or "some point" (TM) 11:02:10 <blathijs> Though a quick look at the code from the git link suggests that it isn't a very generic solution 11:05:35 *** Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 11:07:14 <Korenn> peter1138: that's beyond cool! 11:11:38 <Sacro> I remember that screenshot 11:12:00 <LordAro> i have seen it before also 11:16:38 <V453000> there was even a video of it somewhere :) 11:19:07 <Celestar> LordAro: yeah. 11:19:11 <Celestar> I might have some time 11:20:25 <LordAro> awesome :) 11:20:39 <peter1138> hmm, galaxy s2 £30 a month 11:20:41 <peter1138> do i want? 11:20:58 *** SirSquidness [~sirsquidn@zomg.dongues.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:23:16 <LordAro> Celestar: if you do, you would be an active developer again! http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/file/12422faa83f5/readme.txt#l608 :) 11:23:46 <MINM> hmmmmh 11:23:59 <peter1138> heh 11:24:17 <MINM> nutracks 1.1.2 has some huge issues with the new planning track 11:26:29 <peter1138> good to see 32bpp's going well 11:27:07 <Celestar> LordAro: yeah I'd love that. 11:27:15 <Celestar> but it'll take some time ramping up :P 11:27:35 <planetmaker> yeah... the 32bpp community seems "very active" 11:27:42 <LordAro> :) 11:28:09 <LordAro> s/:)/:(/ 11:28:10 <peter1138> can anything be done with those sprites zephyris posted? 11:28:29 <planetmaker> yes. They'll complement ogfx+landscape 11:28:42 <Celestar> which sprites? 11:28:53 <planetmaker> at least partially. It's not sufficient to replace all 11:28:54 *** SirSquidness [~sirsquidn@zomg.dongues.com] has joined #openttd 11:29:13 <Celestar> blathijs: so ... what about the map thing needs to be ... refactored? 11:29:46 <planetmaker> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=56922 11:31:02 <LordAro> wait, those are 32bpp? they look... normal 11:31:16 <planetmaker> yes, they do 11:31:20 <LordAro> too used to only seeing 32bpp-ez i guess 11:31:53 <LordAro> (normal, as in 8bpp) 11:32:06 <planetmaker> yes, got that 11:32:26 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody said 32bpp had to be "rendered" 11:32:37 <LordAro> i guess :) 11:32:43 <planetmaker> I expected them to look slightly different, tbh. But Zeph used to draw everything 32bpp and then convert to 8bpp only 11:33:00 <planetmaker> and the 32bpp-ez ground tiles should rather be called "ground" tiles 11:33:11 <planetmaker> as they exceed the allowed dimensions. Which make them behave quite ugly 11:33:16 <planetmaker> thus: unusable 11:33:34 <LordAro> :( 11:33:46 <planetmaker> they're non-flat as the grass goes beyond the tile border 11:33:55 <planetmaker> which is a big no-no for ground 11:34:16 <LordAro> he :) 11:34:38 <planetmaker> I told them that. The reply I got was "looks better. We keep it". Oh well 11:34:52 <LordAro> shame 11:35:15 <planetmaker> results in things like grass on the road between bridge head and road 11:35:27 <LordAro> project for me when readme viewer finished: sort out 32bpp-ez stuff 11:35:33 <planetmaker> :-) 11:35:46 <planetmaker> LordAro, first go for 32bpp. W/o ez 11:35:52 <Yexo> that would be nice 11:36:02 <Yexo> but if jupix repo is anything to go by: there is not much useful stuff there 11:36:04 <Celestar> hm. 11:36:07 <planetmaker> it could be the added sugar. But 32bpp in itself would bring it along a looong way 11:36:13 * Celestar ponders about unittesting openttd 11:36:19 <LordAro> we have 32bpp, yes? 11:36:26 <planetmaker> sure. 11:36:28 <planetmaker> For years 11:36:31 * LordAro is confussled 11:36:32 <planetmaker> but no ez 11:36:37 <Yexo> not saying there are no nice graphics, but the vast majority are missing sources, are missing a licence, are incomplete, or are missing the "normal zoom" sprites 11:36:40 <Celestar> using boost::test or google-test 11:36:49 <planetmaker> people usually imply 32bpp = ez. Which is as wrong as it can get :-) 11:37:19 <peter1138> 12:35 < planetmaker> results in things like grass on the road between bridge head and road 11:37:26 <Yexo> one of the problems is that the ez patch has never been complete so it has always forced a 32bpp blitter 11:37:30 <peter1138> ^ which they then considered our bug, iirc 11:37:30 <Yexo> while there is technically no reason for that 11:37:38 <planetmaker> peter1138, yes 11:38:02 * LordAro decides to get info 11:38:08 <planetmaker> Yexo, yes... and it should (IMHO) give means to be used with 8bpp, too 11:38:15 <planetmaker> there's no reason to require 32bpp 11:38:20 <Yexo> exactly 11:38:26 <peter1138> hell yeah, i'd love an extra zoom level with 8bpp 11:38:30 <LordAro> so, a 'proper' ez patch would be made irrespective of 32bpp, yes? 11:38:34 <peter1138> yes 11:38:37 <planetmaker> yes 11:38:39 <LordAro> hm.. 11:38:39 <Yexo> yes 11:40:26 <LordAro> but since now ottd can detect a 32bpp grf/base set, forcing (should) now not be needed 11:40:28 <peter1138> the different recolour stuff is totally irrelevant to zooming 11:40:48 <LordAro> indeed, should be split off, at least 11:40:52 <peter1138> i still don't know what problem that solves 11:41:12 <LordAro> me neither :) 11:41:16 <Yexo> better gradients for company colours 11:41:34 <Yexo> if you use the current system you can only use the 8bpp company colours, which limits you to 8 gradients 11:41:44 <peter1138> *nod* 11:41:46 <Yexo> the different recolour stuff allows for a lot more gradients 11:41:56 <planetmaker> which in itself would be a nice patch 11:42:04 <planetmaker> and also doesen't require ez in the least 11:42:11 <Yexo> true 11:42:19 <Yexo> but it's way more visible with ez 11:42:23 <planetmaker> sure 11:42:24 <Yexo> the effect without that isn't so big 11:42:36 <LordAro> from memory, yes - although as of latest patch, that still didn't work correctly - white was still grey, etc 11:42:50 <peter1138> yeah, i was thinking it doesn't work properly 11:42:54 <LordAro> i write too slow :) 11:43:13 <peter1138> does it still use the mask? 11:43:22 <peter1138> i never looked at the algorithm 11:43:32 <Yexo> no clue how it works, I never looked at that code 11:43:35 <LordAro> i think so 11:44:03 <Yexo> the zoom algorithm is broken too, it causes glitches when it zooms in 8bpp sprites 11:44:21 <LordAro> :) it's all broken! 11:44:52 <peter1138> and people wonder why it's not added :) 11:46:36 <andythenorth> bbl 11:46:37 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 11:46:56 <LordAro> oh good, i'm already a 'manager' on the 32bpp-ez-patches project @ #coop 11:48:22 <planetmaker> you wanted to work on it... :-) 11:48:24 <V453000> I thought you meant the irc channel for a second :P 11:49:41 <Celestar> blathijs: do you have any of our old drafts for the map shit? 11:50:35 <peter1138> hmm 11:50:52 <peter1138> the ez patch add a palette_modifier_shadow 11:51:14 <peter1138> but... there's already palette_modifier_transparent. hmm 11:53:18 <Terkhen> :P 11:53:42 <peter1138> i dunno 11:53:56 <LordAro> yay! lots to do... 11:54:42 <peter1138> right, i'm not looking any more 11:54:43 <z-MaTRiX> heyy 11:54:46 <peter1138> i still have biggui to finish off 11:55:41 <LordAro> why was http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4588 never added to trunk? 11:56:17 <LordAro> @bug 4588 11:56:24 <LordAro> nope, doesn't do that :) 11:56:36 <LordAro> @flyspray 4588 11:56:43 <LordAro> nor that 11:57:50 <Celestar> @help 11:57:50 <DorpsGek> Celestar: help [<plugin>] [<command>] 11:58:02 <Celestar> @help bug 11:58:02 <DorpsGek> Celestar: Error: There is no command "bug". 11:58:07 <Celestar> >< 11:58:23 <Celestar> it took him 16 seconds for figure that out? :P 11:58:45 <LordAro> :P 11:59:17 <Eddi|zuHause> @fs 4588 11:59:17 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4588 11:59:37 <Celestar> Eddi's da man 11:59:54 <LordAro> :) 12:00:35 <Eddi|zuHause> "Unter den Blinden ist der EinÀugige König" 12:00:38 <planetmaker> LordAro, no reason. I guess no-one really looked at it properly 12:01:06 <LordAro> how about now ;) 12:01:52 <Celestar> hm. 12:02:33 <planetmaker> now: work work ;-) 12:02:50 <Eddi|zuHause> boring! 12:03:36 <LordAro> i can report it still applies without error 12:03:55 <LordAro> but then i don't think find_version.sh has changed since :) 12:08:12 <planetmaker> it actually has ;-) 12:08:27 <Celestar> *sigh* 12:08:33 <planetmaker> the FS entry is from 11 April. The last change on that file from 7 May ;-) 12:08:53 *** welshdragon [~welshdrag@client-86-31-213-47.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 12:10:00 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:3427:96bb:272a:a385] has joined #openttd 12:10:03 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:10:03 <planetmaker> and one of the "reasons" is that the svn revision detection is not failsafe: one could mimic an svn version by a specifically crafted commit messages to the hg repo. 12:13:19 <Eddi|zuHause> how's that relevant? you can override the version anyway 12:14:05 <Celestar> glx :D 12:17:46 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-178-004-186-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 12:44:16 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-89-241-66-6.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 12:44:50 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23055 /extra/website/ (10 files in 6 dirs): [Website] -Fix: long pending changes of website; various. 12:47:22 <LordAro> " Do not need donations at the moment!" huh? 12:48:09 <TrueBrain> you sound like that is new to you ;) We haven't been actively looking for donations for the last 2 years :P 12:48:29 *** blotek [~blotek@afrl48.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 12:48:57 <LordAro> how come? is the project being swamped with money? 12:49:09 *** blotek [~blotek@afrl48.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:49:18 <TrueBrain> There is enough flow of donations without us actively looking for it 12:49:28 <KenjiE20> didn't you know, everyone here is like "take my money, I don't need it" 12:49:45 <TrueBrain> attitude towards donating has changed a lot over the last few years, that is for sure :) 12:50:12 <TrueBrain> from: "you donated? Why? It is free!" to "What? You play that game for free and never donated anything?", basically :P 12:50:56 <KenjiE20> I wonder if that has anything to do with a certain block game..... 12:51:07 <TrueBrain> not from what I have seen 12:51:22 <TrueBrain> I more think that that certain game got that much money because of the change in attitude 12:51:56 *** blotek [~blotek@afrl48.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 12:51:56 <TrueBrain> then again, 60 euro for a non-indie game is a lot of money ......... 12:52:24 *** blotek [~blotek@afrl48.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [] 12:52:38 <KenjiE20> yeah, they do seem to be getting to the "charging this much, cause we can" area 12:52:43 *** blotek [~blotek@afrl48.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 12:52:46 <Terkhen> :P 12:52:51 <TrueBrain> and then they also force you to be online when you play it 12:52:55 <TrueBrain> which makes little sense to me ... 12:53:06 <TrueBrain> and the worst, for me: then you also have to pay 15 euro per 4 maps extra ... 12:53:12 <TrueBrain> I cannot understand people seriously pay for that 12:53:20 <TrueBrain> I remember the days I could download 100 maps FOR FREE 12:53:28 <Terkhen> for what game? 12:53:33 <KenjiE20> AA-title-4: The Rest of the Game DLC Now Avaiable!!11eleven 12:53:36 <TrueBrain> every game Terkhen :P 12:54:11 <TrueBrain> Call of Duty: Black Ops costs in total 120 euro to get the game + 4x 4 maps atm .... counterstrike I downloaded for free (because I had Half-Life) and it came with 8 maps, and I downloaded ...... MANY over the years 12:54:21 <TrueBrain> greed is good, I guess 12:59:47 <Terkhen> :P 13:00:06 <Terkhen> with valve games you still get the new content for free 13:00:21 <TrueBrain> it is one of the only that keeps true to his statements, yeah 13:00:41 <KenjiE20> Terkhen: but you game is borked until you finish the 20bilion gb update :P 13:00:47 <TrueBrain> I jsut wonder why game industries want to rob me blind .. I rather spend some money on indie games, and have equal amount of fun with it 13:00:48 <Terkhen> mostly because they want to drag people into their online gaming thing 13:01:35 <TrueBrain> I bought games like Achron. Lovely games. Not as pretty as others, sure, but equal amount of fun tbh 13:01:39 <Arafangion> They're also pretty horrid to work for. 13:02:08 <TrueBrain> I installed Cities XL 2012 a few days ago ... omfg ... what a waste of money is that game. The amount of bugs I found in the first 10 minutes exceeded the amount of memory in my head I wanted to spend on it :P 13:02:25 <TrueBrain> can't understand why anyone would pay such amounts of money on such games .. 13:02:32 <TrueBrain> ugh, enough ranting against the gaming industry :P 13:02:37 <KenjiE20> lol 13:02:48 <TrueBrain> I am just happy we can give you guys a game like OpenTTD free of charge 13:02:49 <Terkhen> yes... many companies follow the philosophy of "release something broken now, fix in a few months" 13:03:07 <Arafangion> If at all. 13:03:09 <KenjiE20> s/fix/fix and finish/ 13:03:12 <Noldo> it's more money earler 13:03:15 <TrueBrain> indeed: if at all :D 13:03:24 <Terkhen> sadly, yes 13:03:37 <TrueBrain> Cities XL 2011 never got fixed of his memory problems. sadly, 2012 version has EXACTLY the same issues 13:03:55 <Arafangion> Computers have 16 GB of RAM, anyway. 13:04:01 <KenjiE20> I miss big transport infrastructure in cities 13:04:03 <Terkhen> if the previous version made money anyways, why bother? :P 13:04:13 <KenjiE20> at least SC4 had highways and stuff 13:04:20 <TrueBrain> which brings me to the rant of for example Roller Coaster Tycoon or Call Of Duty: the identical same game, the same weapons, the same maps, the same everything .... yet it is a new version and they ask again money from you 13:04:31 <Belugas> hello 13:04:36 <Terkhen> hi Belugas 13:04:41 <planetmaker> hi Belugas 13:04:44 <TrueBrain> I laughed my ass off that the creator of CoD MW3 said it was not a copy/paste of MW2 ... "it now had better lighting, better textures and better looking maps" 13:04:52 <TrueBrain> so .. how was the gameplay not a copy/paste? 13:05:07 <Terkhen> if you only care about graphics, it is not a copypaste :P 13:05:15 <Arafangion> All modern games are just graphics. :( 13:05:24 <TrueBrain> which moron cares about gfx when playing a game ..... 13:05:33 <Arafangion> Most game players.. 13:05:34 <TrueBrain> I played BF3 yesterday .. first on the XBox ... 13:05:36 <TrueBrain> the controls made me cry 13:05:43 <TrueBrain> next on the PC 13:05:45 <TrueBrain> omfg ... 13:05:45 <Belugas> hi hi my friends 13:05:46 <KenjiE20> console fps =/ 13:05:49 <TrueBrain> I was so fucking annoyed 13:05:53 <TrueBrain> I can only go from A to B 13:05:55 <TrueBrain> I cannot go via C 13:06:02 <TrueBrain> as then I am "leaving the mission area" 13:06:09 <KenjiE20> :( 13:06:11 <TrueBrain> just another shooter 13:06:13 <TrueBrain> running from A to B 13:06:16 <TrueBrain> shooting what comes at you 13:06:23 <TrueBrain> owh, yeah, "and it looks pretty" 13:06:28 <KenjiE20> no more sneaky gits on karkand? 13:06:30 <Terkhen> All modern games are just graphics <--- that's good for me, if a lot of good games came out I would be broken most months :P 13:06:32 <TrueBrain> worth my 60 euros? A hooker is money better spend 13:07:06 <planetmaker> :-D 13:07:21 <planetmaker> suddenly it feels dirty here :-P 13:07:29 <Arafangion> TrueBrain: Unlike hookers, though, when you're done with the game, you have no adverse issues other than a slight lack of sleep. 13:08:09 <KenjiE20> same nagging feeling of disappointment later too :p 13:08:50 <TrueBrain> and you still hav ethe puke next time you pick it up 13:08:53 <TrueBrain> so I see no difference :P 13:09:07 <Terkhen> bbl 13:11:23 * Arafangion is suddenly unable to distinguish. 13:12:03 <TrueBrain> but, to end with some positive: I do like that Steam is allowing indy-developers, and they are doing a good job there 13:12:13 <blathijs> Celestar: There is a branch in the SVN repository, I think 13:12:15 <TrueBrain> I proudly bought a few good indy games, which really were worth their money :) 13:12:22 <KenjiE20> also, bullethell on steam 13:12:23 <blathijs> Celestar: Not sure if we actually wrote a lot of docs up front 13:12:37 <KenjiE20> that amused me 13:12:45 <Celestar> blathijs: yeah. I'm trying to find out what we actually tried to do :P 13:12:45 <Celestar> I know there were about 120 opinions of how to do it :P 13:13:12 <TrueBrain> and now, now I need a graphic artist 13:13:15 <TrueBrain> Osai: where are you buddy? :) 13:13:39 <KenjiE20> you need a minion whistle :p 13:14:33 <LordAro> *like* 13:14:51 <TrueBrain> Osai did all the imagery on the OpenTTD website for me :D He is that awesome :) 13:15:00 <TrueBrain> just it has been 2 years or something we last worked on it :P 13:15:19 <KenjiE20> it ain't broke yet :) 13:17:12 <Celestar> blathijs: I'm still wondering about those unittests :P 13:18:35 <blathijs> Celestar: unittests? 13:19:15 <blathijs> Celestar: This seems to be relevant docs: http://wiki.openttd.org/Map_Rewrite 13:19:26 <Celestar> blathijs: I was wondering whether the basic map/tile functionality should be unittested. That'd make modfying it easier 13:20:03 *** Jabol [Jabol@77-253-0-203.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #openttd 13:21:08 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-175.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 13:21:48 <blathijs> Celestar: Probably makes sense, I guess 13:22:06 <Celestar> blathijs: plus maybe then unionizing the current map struct. 13:22:54 <blathijs> I guess the current map struct isn't regular enough to allow unionizing, but I'm not sure 13:23:20 <blathijs> also, if you introduce the concept of layered tiles, your unittests will probably break everywhere :-) 13:23:41 <Celestar> I have that feeling as well 13:23:45 <blathijs> (read: most accessor functions will need to be updated to include a height parameter, or something) 13:31:11 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-5d822c5f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 13:31:38 <Jabol> Can someone give me a link to an article about making NewGRF's? 13:33:17 <Yexo> www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial 13:33:59 <Jabol> Hmm, there's no article in the wiki.openttd.org about it? I thought there was. 13:34:15 <Yexo> not anything comprehensive 13:36:25 <Jabol> Can you give me the link to that article? 13:36:47 <Yexo> I don't know of there is one 13:36:54 <Yexo> if there is one, it's small and unimportant 13:37:17 <Yexo> the one I gave above is the only tutorial about nml. There is also http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NFOTutorial about nfo 13:37:58 <Yexo> why do you want an article on wiki.openttd.org so badly? 13:38:13 <Yexo> tt-wiki.net hosts the official nfo and nml specs 13:38:22 <Yexo> and also the best tutorials 13:42:39 *** Starhero [~ANONYMOUS@pool-173-72-40-104.cmdnnj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 13:42:44 <Starhero> Hail! 13:44:00 <Jabol> Hi. 13:44:19 <Starhero> i am having an issue with some NewGRF. One is throwing and error and I am not sure how to go about debugging (I believe it is incompatiable with something else but the error is not very informitive) Could someone possibly help? 13:45:11 <LordAro> the error report is not very informative if we don;t know the error message 13:45:15 <Jabol> Yexo: It explains the coding, but not the required sprites. 13:45:24 <Jabol> I want to make a new-looking train. 13:45:31 <Jabol> But I don't know how big the sprites are supposed to be. 13:45:47 <Yexo> ah, so you need http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/GraphicsTutorial 13:46:05 <Yexo> or take a look at an existing project from dev.openttdcoop.org and copy the sizes from there 13:46:20 <Yexo> Starhero: which grfs / which error message? 13:46:23 <Starhero> This is an SS of the error..let me also SS the packs...I am new so don't eat me even if i am a tasty noob! :P 13:46:24 <Starhero> http://screencast.com/t/frCMiOnk 13:46:53 <Yexo> can you also make a screenshot of your newgrf window? 13:47:10 <Starhero> http://screencast.com/t/AG51hGejd <-- list of GRFs 13:48:22 <Starhero> I turned on debugging GRFs via windows CMD but the text is so jumbled i don't want to even comb through it. 13:48:47 <Yexo> http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=NARS_GRF_Parameters <- see that 13:48:59 <Yexo> set the right parameter to override that safeguard 13:49:52 <Celestar> blathijs: hm... 13:50:19 <Sacro> Running a grep -r from / is quite slow 13:50:23 <Yexo> blathijs / Celestar: did you look at the link to michi_cc's repository that planetmaker posted earlier? 13:50:30 <Celestar> Yexo: no. 13:50:37 <Celestar> where is it, I have a bit of a shaky connection here 13:50:38 <Yexo> that already allows layered tiles IIRC 13:50:51 <Starhero> ahh! So how many of these GRF's have wikis? Since i wish i could get some info with the cargos and such...and vehicle intro dates...Also is there ever going to be URL LINKED (like actually clickable) links in the discriptions of the GRFs in the content browers... 13:50:56 <Yexo> http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/git/ 13:51:04 <Belugas> mmh.. searching a needle in a <hai??> stack 13:51:09 <Starhero> I found myself blindly d/ling them since they sounded cool...wiht out going to the forums.. 13:51:10 <Belugas> hail? 13:51:14 <Belugas> hey what??? 13:51:22 <Celestar> thankies ... 13:51:40 <Yexo> Starhero: a few have. This link to this one is visible in the screenshot you posted 13:51:40 <Starhero> because of the fact that i would have to manaully type in the link...and that is annoying when you are on a d/l crazy for new content. 13:51:54 <Starhero> yes but i can't click in IN game... 13:51:59 <Celestar> Yexo: I'll have a look ;) 13:51:59 <Starhero> to open my browser :P 13:52:11 <Yexo> that's a feature request that's been open for quite some time 13:52:27 <Yexo> I do have a half-finished implementation for windows 13:52:49 <Starhero> Ah! That is the OS of choice for me (for gaming..:P) 13:52:51 <Yexo> if you go to http://bananas.openttd.org/ you can see all the online content with clickable links 13:53:22 <Starhero> AH! Thank you again!...wow this is more imformitive then i thought (coming into the IRC that is) 13:54:32 <Starhero> Ok now to set this GRF settings...Tho i ask you this..before i do that..might you review those GRFs in the screen shot and if you know of any problems i might have with those all on? I actually had disabled say FIRS because of alos problems with that one..(it was with ECS base_ 13:55:15 <Celestar> Yexo: is that just the framework or are there some testable features? 13:55:41 <Yexo> not too sure about the last state. But I've seen some screenshots with multiple railtypes on one tile (both diagonal and not crossing eachother) 13:55:50 <Yexo> and different snow amounts of tiles with foundations 13:56:28 *** welshdragon [~welshdrag@client-86-31-213-47.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:59:59 <Celestar> at least it compiles :D 14:00:36 <Celestar> erm. 14:00:36 <Starhero> btw i swear this game looked different at least a few years ago....now it actually LOOKS LIKE TTD! which brought back sooo many hours of wasted life memories :P and now i am wasting more :P 14:00:56 <Starhero> I played this game when I was like 9 14:01:37 * KenjiE20 hasn't really stopped since '94 14:02:23 <Starhero> Also IIRC ttd was the start of the tycoon crazy..and no game has done exactly what ttd has done (tbh all other tycoon games such compaired to this game) 14:02:53 <Starhero> Would i be correct with that statement? 14:03:01 <KenjiE20> TT was renamed TT to fit in with microproses existing tycoon brands, so..... 14:03:22 <peter1138> railroad tycoon 14:03:56 <Starhero> eh never liked those...i guess cuz i rather have full transport control..not just trains...tho i use trains the most in ttd 14:03:57 <peter1138> Starhero, it always looked like ttd :S 14:04:21 <Celestar> I liked RRT 14:04:27 *** Doorslammer [7da86216@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 14:05:17 <Starhero> maybe it was that when i first heard of ottd it wasn't exactly playable? idk...something put me off from it ..and made me get ttd the orgin and played that on windows..or something but got annoyed by somethine about it and stopped playing the game...now ottd seems to just replace ttd for me...rather play this then the orginal...esp with addons. 14:06:55 <blathijs> Yexo: Yeah, I saw it, but it looks like it hacks on layers a bit. Not entirely sure, though. 14:07:10 <Celestar> I don't find it O_o 14:07:49 <Starhero> oh and one other thing i wish i could have a better understanding over.. Horsepower..yes i have seen the wiki page and i have see the forums post on it..but ..is there no way of say..you have 100t to 50hp or 100hp? what is a BASIC rule for making sure my trains run at LEAST on flat land ...and accelerate decently? Trying to figure out Newtons and all that crap hurt my brain :P 14:10:21 <blathijs> Celestar: Don't find what? 14:10:40 <Celestar> blathijs: his changes :P 14:10:57 <Celestar> at least not here http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/git/openttd.git 14:11:35 <Celestar> hm.. there's a submap head 14:11:45 <Celestar> 2 years old 14:14:33 <blathijs> Celestar: newmap.git 14:14:41 <blathijs> I assume 14:15:08 *** welshdragon [~welshdrag@client-86-31-213-47.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 14:15:23 <blathijs> Celestar: Then click the ... under the summary of changes to see all of his changes (reading them in chronological order makes sense :-p) 14:15:30 <Celestar> (= 14:15:34 *** welshdragon [~welshdrag@client-86-31-213-47.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:16:08 <blathijs> Celestar: It seems this is is the critical commit: http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/git/newmap.git/commitdiff/4450bd5ec06a5b8290856e3b407535ab8cd4272f 14:18:01 <Celestar> aha 14:18:07 <blathijs> Celestar: and this one (in reverse order): http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/git/newmap.git/commitdiff/c756bbb8d68ef1dc2b0b12e1f67eb224062b5cd1 14:19:12 <Terkhen> hi 14:20:11 <blathijs> Celestar: Apparently, he changes the map array to be size_y arrays of each size_x elements, and an array of size_x * size_y integers (the offsets) 14:20:45 <blathijs> the offset is the position within the array of size_x size that the "base" tile for a given (x,y) is located 14:21:41 <blathijs> then, he stacks multiple tiles by making the size_x array size_x + 1 long and shifting a bunch of offsets 14:22:09 <blathijs> Not sure if my explaination is helping ;-p 14:23:38 <Celestar> it is. :) 14:25:35 <Celestar> I'm still wondering whether this is the way to go. 14:26:09 <blathijs> Though it seems that these "associated tiles" are not really layered tiles, more like a means to separate the ground from the railway tracks on top 14:26:38 <Celestar> we need more RAM :P 14:26:44 <Celestar> and just have _map[x][y][z] :P 14:27:07 <blathijs> e.g, there is a GetTileType(TileIndex) like before, but also a HasTileByType(TileIndex, TileType) 14:27:25 <LordAro> arrays of arrays of arrays... 14:27:31 <LordAro> yay! 14:27:35 <blathijs> but that doesn't seem to handle crossing bridges, for example 14:28:04 <Celestar> yeah 14:28:19 <Celestar> why not store a std::vector<Tile> for each X,Y? 14:28:29 <Celestar> with many (most?) of them just having one element. 14:28:31 <blathijs> Celestar: I agree that this way of storing extra tiles is a bit cumbersome, but the exact way of storing these extra tiles is easy to swap out (seems like it's properly abstracted away) 14:28:38 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-076-211.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 14:28:43 <blathijs> Celestar: Performance! (I guess) 14:29:11 <Celestar> blathijs: well, that could be easily tested I guess. Just make a prototype where each vector has only one element .. 14:29:17 <Celestar> blathijs: and see how it changes .. 14:29:56 <planetmaker> celestar, blathijs, iirc michi made some performance tests on that. you might want to ask him for it 14:30:16 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-213-49-111-120.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #openttd 14:30:18 <blathijs> michi_cc: *poke* 14:30:20 <Celestar> planetmaker: thought so 14:30:39 <blathijs> I suspect that a vector per tile is very memory intensive as well 14:31:15 <blathijs> but well, I'm curious about what the plan for these associated tiles is? 14:31:22 <blathijs> s/?// 14:31:48 <blathijs> It looks a bit like michi_cc is going in the right direction, but is not going far enough ;-) 14:32:19 <blathijs> His commits are nice and contained, though :-D 14:32:24 <Celestar> a vector isn't that big :P 14:32:32 <planetmaker> iirc the idea was to only store additional levels where actually needed 14:32:36 <Celestar> yeah 14:32:41 <planetmaker> thus keeping memory consumption in check 14:32:55 <Celestar> blathijs: you could even boil it down a bit further. only use a vector if num_elements > 1 14:33:03 <Celestar> blathijs: otherwise store the data directly. 14:33:34 <Yexo> Celestar: that requires at least one byte extra per tile for num_elements 14:33:49 <Celestar> ? 14:33:56 <Celestar> uno bit. 14:34:03 <Yexo> yes, one bit 14:34:13 <Yexo> but there is no more space in the current map array, so that means extending it by a byte 14:34:36 <planetmaker> I guess that needs doing anyway at some stage 14:34:50 <Yexo> that depends on the implementation 14:34:52 <Celestar> not really, because for example the "has bridge" bits are no longer needed ... 14:35:19 <Yexo> currently we use 9 bytes per tile, with michi_cc's implementation you can make it 8 and use stacked tiles when you need more 14:35:29 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-178-004-186-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 14:35:58 <planetmaker> hm, what did he remove to reach 8? 14:36:11 <Yexo> not sure he already did, but that was the plan at least at some point 14:36:25 <Yexo> but you don't actually have to remove anything, that's the nice part 14:36:32 <planetmaker> :-) 14:36:35 <blathijs> Yexo: Also, this one bit "vector or direct" must be stored _outside_ of the Tile struct, of course 14:36:55 <Celestar> really? :P 14:37:30 <blathijs> Celestar: Though "only use a vector if num_elements > 1" means to store a pointer instead of a Tile struct in the main map array, I guess 14:37:41 <Yexo> still don't really see how that would work 14:37:56 <Yexo> a vector consumes at least 12 bytes of memory, most likely a bit more 14:37:58 <blathijs> Messy, I'm afraid :-) 14:38:04 <Yexo> 8 bytes for a pointer and 4 bytes for the size 14:38:32 <blathijs> Yexo: Can't a vector just have its elements allocated inline? 14:38:54 <Yexo> no, each class must have a known size 14:39:05 <Yexo> known at compile-time 14:39:10 <peter1138> bah 14:39:11 <Celestar> blathijs: vectors are inline 14:39:18 <peter1138> it's only 600MB for a 2048x2048x16 map 14:39:20 <blathijs> Ah, right. But you could create vector code that does work like that 14:39:26 <peter1138> that's nothign ;) 14:39:46 <peter1138> minecraft-style chunks? heh 14:39:47 <planetmaker> <3 download gamefile on server connect :-P 14:39:52 <Yexo> yes, but that means a fixed number of tiles per vector, which means there is no reason to use a vector anymore 14:39:54 <Celestar> erm. 14:39:54 <peter1138> lol pm 14:40:01 <blathijs> Yexo: Fair point :-) 14:40:12 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: time remaining: 4 hours and 12 minutes :D 14:40:26 <blathijs> Yexo: Uh, wait. How does the current vector manage adding elements? It's not a linked list, right? 14:40:28 <TrueBrain> would be epic to join coop games ... syncing after the download would be awesome! :D 14:40:35 <Celestar> planetmaker: the vector meta information isn'T saved :P 14:40:45 <Yexo> it allocates memory via alloc, if it runs out of memory it uses realloc to allocate more 14:41:01 <blathijs> Yexo: That applies to "inline" vectors as well 14:41:05 <blathijs> Yexo: Those can also realloca 14:41:06 <TrueBrain> Celestar: how did you manage to get blathijs active? :D 14:41:16 <blathijs> TrueBrain: Talking about ancient plan :-) 14:41:18 <blathijs> s 14:41:26 <Yexo> what exactly do you mean with an inline vector? 14:41:33 <TrueBrain> blathijs: :D 14:41:38 <blathijs> TrueBrain: I won't be doing any coding, don't worry ;-p 14:41:43 <TrueBrain> aawwhhh :( 14:41:51 <LordAro> Truebrain: his minion call works better than yours ;) 14:42:09 <TrueBrain> LordAro: please do make me a new one :P 14:42:28 <blathijs> Yexo: You described struct Vector {int size; Element* elements}; I'm talking about Vector {int size; Element elements[]; } 14:42:32 <blathijs> or something like that 14:42:52 <LordAro> TrueBrain: no can do, i'm a minion myself, see :) 14:43:02 <blathijs> (I'm not convinced the second example is actual code) 14:43:05 <TrueBrain> LordAro: well, at least you come when I ring :P 14:43:06 <Yexo> ok. Now you want to have an array of those vectors. Say Vector[3]. How are you going to access the 2nd element? 14:43:32 <Celestar> Vector[1] ? 14:43:51 <blathijs> Yexo: Ah, right. I was thinking about having a union {Tile t; Vector* v} map[3]; 14:43:56 <Yexo> vector[2] == vector + 2 == ((char*)vector) + 2 * sizeof(struct Vector) 14:44:13 <Celestar> techincally it's (void*) isn't it? :P 14:44:17 <blathijs> Yexo: e.g., only refer to the vector using a pointer, not statically allocate it 14:44:19 <Celestar> vectors are inline :P 14:44:20 <Yexo> perhaps 14:44:50 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 14:44:58 <Yexo> blathijs: ah, that makes sense 14:45:17 <Celestar> hm. 14:46:01 <TrueBrain> can't you guys take a separate channel; #openttd is not to talk about code, ieuw 14:46:04 <TrueBrain> (I am kidding!) 14:46:36 <Celestar> haha 14:46:39 <Celestar> hm. 14:47:10 <Celestar> how's this: new tile type MP_EXTENDED. Then you have a std::map that maps an index into a bunch of stacked tiles? 14:47:44 <blathijs> Celestar: I think that really depends on how many tiles will be stacked 14:47:53 <Celestar> "n" 14:48:09 <blathijs> eh? 14:48:16 <Celestar> some natural number 14:48:16 <Sacro> not n - 1 ? 14:48:22 <Celestar> actually std::multimap 14:49:19 <blathijs> and in michi_cc's approach of making the ground and the railway on top of it separate tiles, I think a large percentage of the tiles might have extra tiles 14:49:43 <blathijs> (I actually start to think that the offset approach michi_cc is using isn't that bad, really) 14:51:01 <Celestar> a multimap can store (n) elements with a key (TileIndex) 14:52:39 <blathijs> Celestar: Yeah, but if 50% of the map accesses need to access the multimap, performance will probably suffer 14:53:24 <Celestar> at some point, you have something that will not be O(1) :P 14:53:51 <Yexo> but map access really should be O(1) 14:54:04 <blathijs> Even O(1) can be problematic for sufficiently large values of 1 14:54:09 <Celestar> rofl 14:54:24 <blathijs> (That was not a joke ;-p) 14:54:28 <Celestar> Yexo: which means you're stuck with vectors, in one form or another :P 14:54:52 <Celestar> having a vector for each (stacked) tile is O(1). 14:55:05 <Yexo> michi_cc's implementation is also O(1) 14:55:09 <Celestar> just the 1 is a bit larger than the current 1 :P 14:55:10 <blathijs> Celestar: Your map approach is also O(1), right? 14:55:11 <Yexo> but requires a lot less memory 14:55:34 <Celestar> Yexo: yes and no. insert is not O(1) :P 14:55:35 <blathijs> (technically, any operation will be O(n), where n is the number of Tiles per TileIndex, of course) 14:55:46 <Yexo> neither is it with vectors 14:55:52 <Celestar> blathijs: which one? multimap? 14:55:52 <Yexo> since you might have to do a realloc, which is not O(1) 14:56:02 <blathijs> Celestar: Yes 14:56:16 <blathijs> I think that modification at > O(1) is perfectly acceptable 14:56:43 <blathijs> since structural modification will mostly happen after user interaction 14:56:54 <Celestar> yep 14:57:01 <blathijs> (modification of the data inside a Tile struct shouldn't be slow, of course) 14:57:29 <peter1138> what does splitting landscape and railway (and presumably road?) offer? 14:57:37 <Yexo> there are quite a few automatic changes, but those are not that common: industry placement / closure, creating houses 14:57:48 <Celestar> hm. 14:57:51 <Celestar> some kind of hash. 14:57:54 <Celestar> which have O(1) 14:59:01 <peter1138> do it the java way. individually allocated objects for each thing, sod the memory ;) 14:59:04 <Yexo> peter1138: multiple railtypes per tile (as long as they don't overlap, which is possible with diagonal rails) 14:59:20 <peter1138> that's possibly anyway 14:59:29 <peter1138> *possible 14:59:36 <peter1138> (given a few extra bits, probably) 15:00:10 <Celestar> hm. 15:00:28 <blathijs> peter1138: I think splitting them makes stuff like bridges more sensible 15:00:33 <Yexo> I think that was the main point for splitting rail and landscape, but that's just one of the things. It also allows proper snow on both halfs of a tile with foundations 15:00:37 <blathijs> e.g. Ground -> Rail -> Bridge -> Rail 15:00:43 <blathijs> instead of Rail -> RailBridge 15:00:52 <Celestar> there is hash_map<> 15:00:54 <Celestar> which is O1. 15:00:55 <Yexo> and instead of having 2 bits for "has bridge above" you could have a pointer to a bridge struct (or way more information about the bridge) 15:00:55 <peter1138> blathijs, that's a more compelling argument :) 15:01:09 <peter1138> Celestar, we suffer from NIH don't forget 15:01:33 <Celestar> well. 15:01:38 <Celestar> you can implement your own hash map :P 15:01:49 <peter1138> there's probably some already 15:02:03 <blathijs> Celestar: When talking about maps, I usually assume a hash map with O(1) access times :-) 15:02:47 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-175.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:02:52 <Celestar> hash maps are USUALLY O(1), but worst case is O(n) 15:03:03 *** Doorslammer [7da86216@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 15:03:05 <Celestar> maps are O(log n), but never worse :P 15:03:10 <Celestar> I gotta run 15:03:10 <TrueBrain> Celestar: a full collision hash .. would that be a hash? :D 15:03:12 <Celestar> bbl (= 15:04:15 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-175.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 15:04:29 <MINM> http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/1/1/2248324/OTTD/Screenshot.png 15:05:09 <MINM> i'm probably doing something dumb, but can anybody tell me why I never have those dutch town names? 15:05:37 <Yexo> you need to select them in your game options 15:05:48 <Rubidium> oh... cool... Celestar runs when I arrive ;) 15:08:02 <michi_cc> peter1138: Splitting rail/road from the base landscape makes implementing "real" tunnels and bridges a lot more sane. 15:08:58 <michi_cc> And by moving the NewGRF animation part of houses and industry tiles, each tile can probably be reduced to 6 or even 5 bytes. 15:09:09 <MINM> ...ahah, that explains a lot. 15:09:18 <MINM> I wish you could use multiple sets, though. 15:10:53 <MINM> oh well, this is already quite useful :D 15:11:17 *** Celestar [~dax@89.204.137.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:11:17 <peter1138> michi_cc, yes, it's logical for tunnels & bridges 15:12:15 <michi_cc> The current code can only do http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/cool_stuff2.png but it was definitely designed with arbitrary stuff on bridges/in tunnels in mind. 15:13:19 <MINM> it would be nice to have bridges like in locomotion. 15:13:20 <peter1138> heh 15:13:22 <peter1138> ish 15:13:34 <peter1138> but yeah, "real" bridges that can turn, etc... 15:13:51 <peter1138> that would make placing them harder though :p 15:14:03 <MINM> or, alternatively, a way you could construct a bridge/tunnel independently of rail/road 15:14:17 <peter1138> yeah 15:14:26 <MINM> with even double width bridges, so you can have a double line bridge that actually looks a bit sensible. 15:14:31 <MINM> but yeah, dreaming... 15:15:08 <MINM> personally Id already be happy if the tunnels get redone like bridges are, with downramps where applicable just like bridges have upramps. 15:15:45 <MINM> that would make tunneled junctions much compacter! 15:16:49 <peter1138> you're volunteering? :) 15:18:22 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-89-241-66-6.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:19:04 <MINM> if somebody else would make tunnel sprites and somebody would point me to the bridge and tunnel placement code, I suppose I could try and apply a little harmless cargocult programming 15:19:34 <Eddi|zuHause> whoa... too much activity today... can't follow... 15:20:06 <blathijs> michi_cc: Your current code still assumes that all associated tiles are more or less on the same level, right? 15:20:30 <blathijs> E.g., your HasTileByType accessor doesn't make much sense when you want to arbitrary stick different tiles 15:20:50 <michi_cc> Yeah, those functions would need to be extended with a z parameter. 15:22:07 <blathijs> michi_cc: So you thought about it, but are leaving that for later. Coolness :-) 15:23:06 <blathijs> michi_cc: Btw, a "z" parameter is a bit tricky, given that tiles can be sloped (the exact z of a tile might depend on the direction from which you're coming) 15:23:41 <michi_cc> The idea is to have a stack of e.g. '(base + rail + road) + (base + tree) + (base + rail)'. To optimize that access, there would be another bit next to the current has_next indicator to indicate if another height level follows. 15:24:13 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0a9627.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 15:25:14 <michi_cc> Well, most of the really interesting stuff (i.e. rail, road, stations) are mostly accessed by walking from a neighboring tile, so most of the time you have a reference height and direction. 15:25:33 <blathijs> michi_cc: Ah, a stack of stacks sounds sensible :-) 15:26:25 <blathijs> michi_cc: In the original map array rewrite years back, we split every tile into a base and a construction, but one base plus arbitrary bases makes more sense I guess 15:26:34 <blathijs> uh, arbitrary constructions 15:26:51 <blathijs> and ack on the reference height and direction 15:26:56 <blathijs> Good stuff :-) 15:29:02 <Eddi|zuHause> <Yexo> I think that was the main point for splitting rail and landscape, but that's just one of the things. It also allows proper snow on both halfs of a tile with foundations <-- it may also make arbitrary number of roadtypes (tram, trolley, cobble, asphalt), plus railtype (crossing) on any one tile possible 15:29:45 <michi_cc> Splitting some stuff into more than one tile makes a lot of sense, as for example only industry tiles, houses and stations actually need all map bits, just to support the occasional NewGRF animated tile. So by splitting a house tile into (base + anim) or even (base + house + anim) you can reduce the average tile size probably even below the current 9 bytes. 15:30:35 *** snack2 [~nn@dsl-prvbrasgw1-fe05dc00-37.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 15:31:15 <michi_cc> Which importantly means that more map can be cached by the CPU which might cover some of the more complex tile access. 15:31:27 <Eddi|zuHause> you'll have an individual tile with <roadtype, roadbits> for each roadtype on one tile. and then some validation routine on construction that certain roadtypes exclude or override each other on a given roadbit 15:31:40 <Eddi|zuHause> drawing may be evil, though 15:32:18 <michi_cc> Not more evil than it would be with the current map design and more road types, you just have to properly sort the road types from bottom to top. 15:32:45 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but how do you decide the order of cobblestone and asphalt roads? 15:33:11 <michi_cc> By not allowing it? ;) 15:34:12 <Eddi|zuHause> then how do you want to handle drag-building asphalt roads across an existing cobblestone road? 15:34:12 <Starhero> So...umm...I think i have came to the conclusion that FIRS is not compat. with ECS? and Vice versa? 15:34:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Starhero: that is correct 15:34:27 *** Celestar [~dax@89.204.137.80] has joined #openttd 15:35:03 <michi_cc> By converting the whole intersection to either one of the road types. 15:35:05 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: with the added complexity that both roadtypes might not come from the same newgrf 15:35:09 <Starhero> Hmm..idk which to use then...I'll have to sets for one or the other..but ..I ask you all this..which do you believe i should play first? FIRS game or ECS game? 15:35:12 <Celestar> \o michi_cc 15:35:26 <michi_cc> @logs 15:35:26 <DorpsGek> michi_cc: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd 15:35:33 <michi_cc> Celestar: read a bit back 15:36:30 <planetmaker> Starhero, both have their own style and challanges. None is "better" than the other 15:36:43 <Celestar> michi_cc: yeah, I was thinking among similar lines. 15:36:55 <planetmaker> I'm prejudiced as I wrote some parts of FIRS, though ;-) 15:36:56 <Starhero> Yes, I figured that much, I should have noted I am asking for opionions. 15:37:07 <Celestar> michi_cc: but I'm still wondering whether it makes sense to store the "additional" tiles in a hashmap. 15:37:18 <Celestar> michi_cc: I'll try to conjure up some prototype and benchmark it :P 15:38:00 <Celestar> but with CPU caching .... 15:38:11 <Celestar> when last I looked we had like 99% cache hits 15:38:21 <michi_cc> Celestar: probably not, especially as a lot of the fuctions can be changed to take a Tile* directly (and some are already in the repo) which makes the actual storage totally unimportant. 15:39:18 <Celestar> michi_cc: true, but what IS the most efficient way of storing shit :) 15:39:18 <peter1138> 16:35 <+michi_cc> By converting the whole intersection to either one of the road types. 15:39:29 <peter1138> ^ road / tram 15:39:53 <michi_cc> Don't compare my current repo with plain trunk though, as I've merged the TileExtended byte into the main Tile struct for easier coding. That alone is like a 15% performance hit in certain scenarios, but only temporary. 15:40:06 <Celestar> is it? 15:40:11 <Celestar> due to aliasing issues? 15:40:28 <Celestar> i.e. more bloat blasted over the memory lines? 15:40:39 <michi_cc> peter1138: As long as there's a NewGRF flag for that it is resolvable. 15:41:01 <michi_cc> Celestar: No, because x86 CPUs need an extra instruction to multiply a pointer by 9 instead of 8. 15:41:17 <Celestar> well I'm heading home. guess I'll be on later, or tomorrow 15:41:26 <peter1138> ah 15:41:39 <peter1138> does it turn out to be 16? 15:41:43 <Celestar> michi_cc: tried bloating the thing to 16? 15:41:43 <planetmaker> Celestar, last time I checked, IRC also works via DSL from home ;-) 15:42:02 <Celestar> planetmaker: but not too while while steering a vehicle over the highway :P 15:42:20 <michi_cc> Doesn't matter, the maximum scale factor is *8 for accesses like [ESI+ECX*8] 15:42:21 <peter1138> +not 15:42:22 <peter1138> hmm 15:42:24 <peter1138> i see 15:42:41 <peter1138> and that last byte isn't accessed very often, i assume 15:43:32 <Celestar> cya o\ 15:43:33 <michi_cc> That too. After all current tiles are fully split the next step would be to rearrange the bits to free up now unused space which would allow reducing the size of the Tile struct. 15:43:42 <planetmaker> Celestar, also that could work... but it might be out of the limits of 'save driving' ;-) 15:43:42 *** Celestar [~dax@89.204.137.80] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:48:11 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 15:49:23 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [] 15:52:05 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@89.246.169.7] has joined #openttd 15:52:53 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 15:56:31 *** Starhero [~ANONYMOUS@pool-173-72-40-104.cmdnnj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: powered by TS3/IRC] 15:56:54 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 15:57:56 <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> ^ road / tram <-- what about trolley catenary [must have road, may not have tram], overhead monorail [may not have tram, trolley], subway/lightrail [may not have road], lots of other ideas? 15:58:46 <Sacro> whoo 15:59:01 <Eddi|zuHause> (although some of these restrictions may be weakened for gameplay purposes) 16:05:11 <MINM> trolley could have tram as far as I care 16:05:23 <MINM> subway is kindof interesting, though. 16:05:33 <MINM> very invisible, but still 16:06:02 <MINM> would it be possible to hack 'submerged' subways? 16:07:16 <MINM> by having a tramway with the vehicles offset so they appear sunken into the ground? 16:12:19 <Eddi|zuHause> MINM: theoretically yes, but that's not really the point 16:19:14 *** LordAro [~lordaro@host86-156-236-122.range86-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so."] 16:19:51 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 16:21:09 *** LordAro [~lordaro@host86-156-236-122.range86-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 16:21:57 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 16:28:19 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-86-49-123-133.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 16:30:18 <Eddi|zuHause> we only have 3 "low IDs" left... and i already cheated a bit with VT08/VT12/ET30/ET56 16:31:39 <Eddi|zuHause> but at least now all current engines have articulated parts 16:33:52 *** Jabol [Jabol@77-253-0-203.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [] 16:37:29 <planetmaker> in any case the amount of warnings is meanwhile drastically reduced, Eddi|zuHause :-) 16:37:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't actually counted them :) 16:38:26 <Eddi|zuHause> > scripts/generate.py 2>&1 | wc -l 16:38:28 <Eddi|zuHause> 241 16:38:36 <Eddi|zuHause> not exactly pretty :p 16:39:30 <planetmaker> 18:36 Brot6: cets: update from r320 to r324 done (295 warnings) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cets/push/r324 16:40:54 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the rest are those sprite offset issues 16:43:38 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 16:43:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i could fix those myself, but i'm unsure which of the two options to take 16:44:46 <Eddi|zuHause> (add 1 row of transparent pixels at the botton, or move 1 pixel down and add row of transparent pixels at the top) 16:47:27 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@vpn91.ext.espci.fr] has joined #openttd 16:54:23 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 16:59:49 * MINM keeps fingers crossed 17:00:14 <MINM> ...FU 17:00:34 <MINM> error 1 :( 17:01:43 *** TheMask96 [~martijn@greed.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:02:39 * MINM retries with clean source 17:06:26 *** TheMask96 [~martijn@lust.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 17:07:30 *** Celestar [~dax@dslb-188-110-172-184.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 17:07:31 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23056 /trunk/src/currency.cpp: -Change: use the currency -> euro conversion rate for currencies that have been replaced with the euro, so when the switch happens the conversion rate at that point is roughly that of the real world conversion rate 17:07:45 <Celestar> yo \o 17:08:08 <TrueBrain> owh, him again :D 17:08:20 <Celestar> rofl 17:08:55 <Rubidium> ohaj to the closest thing to an astronaut we've had in the channel (or am I mistaken?) 17:09:25 <MINM> hmmmh, clean build works. 17:09:29 * MINM blames the patch! 17:09:43 <Celestar> Rubidium: about, yes :P 17:09:48 <Celestar> how ya been? 17:10:03 <Rubidium> quite civilian lately 17:10:20 <planetmaker> hm.... which round of selection did you get to, Celestar? 17:10:32 <Celestar> 1st .P 17:10:43 <planetmaker> so they interviewed you? :-) 17:10:51 <Celestar> no, apparently I was too young :P 17:10:56 <planetmaker> he :-P 17:11:15 <planetmaker> Then I guess we're equal :-P 17:11:46 <planetmaker> anyway bbl. sports 17:11:47 <Prof_Frink> We should get sabdfl in here, just to annoy you. 17:12:50 <Celestar> who? 17:13:17 <Prof_Frink> Mark Shuttleworth. 17:14:22 <Celestar> ah. him :) 17:18:07 <MINM> huh. 17:18:11 <MINM> where has my sound gone 17:18:58 <Rubidium> it didn't like clean trunk and hitched a ride on the patch you applied 17:19:31 <MINM> that's the odd thing 17:20:02 <MINM> I have the clean 1.1.3 in the usual place, but that sound is gone too, and Im certain at least that one had sound 17:20:26 <Rubidium> possibly the volume is set to 0 in the config 17:20:35 <MINM> of ottd? 17:20:40 <Rubidium> yes 17:20:46 <MINM> not in the os, Ive checked that already 17:21:19 <MINM> where do I find that setting in openttd.cfg? 17:21:35 <Rubidium> alternatively the "nosound" sound set is chosen? 17:22:11 <MINM> oh, I found music_vol, it's at 127 17:22:19 <Celestar> hm.. trains that can change the gauge during travel O-o 17:32:24 <MINM> Ill assume 127 is hard enough? 17:32:54 <Rubidium> music_vol isn't the volume of the sound 17:33:52 <MINM> well, of the music, of course 17:34:19 <MINM> but effect_vol is at 127 too 17:34:45 <MINM> however, this worries me: 17:34:46 <MINM> graphicsset = 17:34:46 <MINM> soundsset = "NoSound" 17:34:46 <MINM> musicset = 17:34:46 <MINM> videodriver = 17:34:48 <MINM> musicdriver = 17:34:50 <MINM> sounddriver = 17:34:52 <MINM> blitter = 17:35:10 <Terkhen> MINM: www.pastebin.com 17:35:16 <Rubidium> all are autodetected, except the soundset which is forced to "NoSound" 17:35:19 *** Elukka [~Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 17:35:29 <Rubidium> which incidentally might be a reason why there is no sound 17:35:42 <Rubidium> but I'm known for giving things misleading names 17:35:50 <MINM> Terkhen: I know, but I didn't feel the need for such a small piece 17:35:51 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 17:36:14 <Terkhen> I wouldn't call that small :) 17:36:43 <MINM> huh, for some reason I can suddenly select sfx/mfx/gfx now, I couldn't before 17:37:41 <LordAro> you can't ingame 17:37:49 <LordAro> only in manin menu 17:37:58 <LordAro> i don't really understand why :) 17:38:23 <LordAro> s/manin/main/ 17:38:31 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 17:38:44 <MINM> hmmmmh 17:38:46 <MINM> oddness. 17:38:48 <MINM> oh well 17:38:52 <MINM> I seem to have sound again. 17:39:19 <Terkhen> good :) 17:40:21 <MINM> why is it not possible to change sound/music volume in the game? 17:40:24 <supermop_> hi 17:40:33 <MINM> and wether or not the music plays 17:40:44 <Rubidium> it is from the main menu 17:40:55 <Rubidium> but it's primarily because of NewGRFs 17:40:55 <Terkhen> hi supermop_ 17:41:15 <MINM> I can only change what music, not sound or playing or not 17:41:39 <Terkhen> switch the volume to zero 17:42:54 <MINM> meh, I disabled it again in the .cfg. 17:43:03 <MINM> I was just commenting on the oddness of the fact 17:43:08 <LordAro> music newgrfs? 17:43:17 <MINM> ...aaanyway, back to the patching. 17:43:35 <MINM> Im trying to apply the chillcore patch pack to nightly source. 17:44:16 <Terkhen> good luck with that, it is a huge patchpack 17:44:19 <Rubidium> do you have a clue of OpenTTD's source and/or developing? 17:44:41 <Terkhen> I wonder why they don't keep patchpacks as a bunch of diff files, I would have gone mad with a single one 17:44:43 <MINM> well, Ive already managed to compile the clean source. 17:44:46 <Rubidium> if the answer to both subquestions is no, then apply it to the version the patch was made from 17:45:05 <Rubidium> do not try to apply it to any other version, it will more than likely fail in many aspects 17:45:41 <Terkhen> MINM: you will get "rejects" that you will need to solve manually, and that requires knowledge of how the code works, how the different patches in the patchpack works, and what were the changes in trunk since the revision that the patchpack uses 17:46:01 <MINM> I suspected that, but do you happen to have a spare r22273 laying around somewhere? 17:46:18 <Terkhen> yes 17:46:27 <Terkhen> just check out that revision from the subversion repository 17:47:11 <MINM> how? Ive seen how to get the current source, but I don't know how to get a specific version 17:47:27 <Terkhen> subversion / mercurial / git allow you to do that 17:48:03 <LordAro> downloading the source from openttd.org is fairly useless 17:48:35 <MINM> Ive got subversion, but a commandline application is of little use when you don't know the correct command 17:50:10 <MINM> I mean, I know "$ svn checkout svn://svn.openttd.org/trunk openttd" 17:50:27 <MINM> but what are the correct magic words to get a specific version of that? 17:50:39 <Terkhen> try svn -h checkout (IIRC) or google, subversion is simple to use 17:51:05 <Terkhen> I don't remember if it used mercurial syntax for revisions or not so that will be faster 17:51:33 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:52 <Rubidium> MINM: start with svn help ;) 17:53:57 <Rubidium> MINM: then the names of *all* available subcommands and only then determine which one is best to update your checkout to a particular revision 17:54:11 <Rubidium> after that, use svn help <subcommand> to figure out what parameters it has 17:54:45 <Rubidium> read the parameters carefully and then determine which one is the best for updating to a particular revision 17:56:08 *** welshdragon [~welshdrag@client-86-31-213-47.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:57:44 *** valhalla1w [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #openttd 17:57:56 *** valhalla1w [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:58:44 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 17:58:45 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 17:59:47 <Terkhen> hi Alberth 18:00:00 <Alberth> hi Terkhen 18:01:21 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-13-113.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 18:01:27 <MINM> m@APC1:/media/NTFS/OTTD_build/openttd-trunk-r23050$ svn update -r 22273 18:01:27 <MINM> Skipped '.' 18:02:05 <Rubidium> so . wasn't a svn checkout 18:02:20 <MINM> ? 18:02:59 *** valhalla1w [~valhallas@vpn91.ext.espci.fr] has joined #openttd 18:03:14 <MINM> what do you mean, rubi? 18:03:29 <Celestar> try svn info . ? 18:03:55 <Yexo> MINM: how did you create that openttd-trunk-r23050 directory in the first place? 18:04:32 <MINM> extracted /media/NTFS/OTTD_build/openttd-trunk-r23050-source.tar.xz 18:04:38 <Celestar> ..... 18:04:39 <Yexo> so it's not an svn checkout 18:04:56 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@vpn91.ext.espci.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:05:09 <Celestar> Yexo: well THEORETICALLY it might be .p 18:05:28 <Yexo> sure, but..., given the earlier error message :p 18:06:17 <MINM> ahah. not identical, then? 18:06:34 <Celestar> svn saves repository data in an .svn directory. 18:06:43 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-104-127.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:06:47 <Celestar> if it's not there, svn doesn't know watta do. 18:06:52 *** KouDy1 [~KouDy@ip-86-49-123-133.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 18:06:59 <Alberth> MINM: source code is the same 18:07:08 <Yexo> MINM: see http://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_development#Source_code 18:07:30 <Celestar> hm. did TrueBrain throw me out? :) 18:07:32 <Celestar> @op 18:07:41 <TrueBrain> throw you out of what? 18:07:47 <TrueBrain> type: @whoami 18:07:47 <Celestar> nvm :D 18:07:49 *** JVassie_ [~James@2.25.203.117] has joined #openttd 18:07:51 <Celestar> @whoami 18:07:51 <DorpsGek> Celestar: I don't recognize you. 18:07:54 <TrueBrain> see 18:07:56 <Celestar> @yousuck 18:08:01 <TrueBrain> you do need to authenticate :) 18:08:08 <Rubidium> @whoami 18:08:08 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: I don't recognize you. 18:08:08 <Eddi|zuHause> MINM: a source tarball misses all svn metadata 18:08:16 <Eddi|zuHause> MINM: so you can't just "update" it 18:08:19 <Rubidium> Celestar: it's not only you ;) 18:08:22 <Celestar> lol 18:08:22 <MINM> gotcha. duly noted 18:08:39 *** mode/#openttd [+o Celestar] by ChanServ 18:08:40 <LordAro> @whoami 18:08:40 <DorpsGek> LordAro: I don't recognize you. 18:08:45 <LordAro> aw :( 18:08:48 <LordAro> :) 18:09:00 <MINM> "svn co svn://svn.openttd.org/trunk 22273" seemed to work. 18:09:04 <Celestar> well 18:09:15 <Celestar> now you have the stuff in a directory called 22273 :P 18:09:23 <Celestar> but it's not revision 22273 :D 18:09:30 <Celestar> thanks Chanserv ... 18:09:32 <TrueBrain> Celestar: but I doubt DorpsGek ever knew you :P 18:09:36 <MINM> sadface.jpg 18:10:01 <Yexo> svn update -r 22273 <- that will now work if you go into that directory 22273 18:10:13 <Celestar> .. and rename the dir 18:10:26 <LordAro> "svn checkout svn://svn.openttd.org/trunk ottdsrc && cd ottdsrc && svn update -r 22273" 18:10:30 <LordAro> woo 18:10:46 *** perk11 [~perk11@188.32.29.238] has joined #openttd 18:10:55 <MINM> done and done, in proper order 18:11:02 <MINM> do like. :D 18:11:07 <MINM> now we're getting somewhere 18:11:52 <LordAro> tbh, for a 'proper' patchpack with lots of users, it should be set up in an mq at openttdcoop 18:13:50 <Rubidium> LordAro: lies... 18:14:04 <LordAro> huh? 18:14:18 <Rubidium> the biggest OpenTTD patchpack works pretty well without a mq ;) 18:14:48 <Rubidium> (that ofcourse being OpenTTD itself) 18:15:06 <Celestar> mq?! 18:15:13 <Yexo> mercurial patch-queue 18:15:49 <LordAro> s/'proper'/'proper' 3rd-party/ ;) 18:16:46 <Terkhen> the best is to work in a single patch until it is included, and then move to the next one :P 18:18:00 <Celestar> cya guys. some movie time 18:18:07 *** Celestar [~dax@dslb-188-110-172-184.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:19:18 *** JVassie_ [~James@2.25.203.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:19:49 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fd586.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 18:20:11 <Rubidium> patch packs are very effective in destroying getting them into trunk 18:20:56 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.86.55] has joined #openttd 18:21:08 <LordAro> true 18:22:03 <Eddi|zuHause> <MINM> "svn co svn://svn.openttd.org/trunk 22273" seemed to work. <-- the right syntax is "svn co svn://blah@22273" 18:22:40 <MINM> would that get me r22273? 18:22:47 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 18:22:57 <Terkhen> see you tomorrow 18:23:02 <MINM> ah, kay, thanks 18:23:07 <MINM> see ya, Terkhen 18:23:12 <Eddi|zuHause> and the best thing is, this works even if the "blah" branch has been deleted already 18:23:33 <MINM> ah 18:23:54 <Yexo> that's not very likely for "trunk" :p 18:24:10 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but if you want MiniIN@8000 or something := 18:28:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i still have 2 MiniIN checkouts for some reason 18:30:12 <Eddi|zuHause> and a "dodgyhack.diff" 18:30:36 <MINM> hmmmmh, what the shit 18:30:52 <MINM> it compiled alright, but the exe fails to execute 18:31:03 <MINM> well, it starts and immediately goes boom again 18:31:09 <Eddi|zuHause> executed the right exe? 18:31:20 <Eddi|zuHause> added the additional .grf files? 18:31:23 <MINM> the only one. 18:31:55 <Eddi|zuHause> (why does nobody ever read the installing instructions?= 18:32:18 <Eddi|zuHause> why do i always type = instead of )? 18:32:31 <MINM> why would I need additional .grf-s? 18:33:26 <Eddi|zuHause> because i assume you want to compile chills patchpack? 18:35:49 <MINM> ...oh. 18:36:15 <MINM> who the hell puts installation instructions and required dependencies in a second post? 18:36:18 <MINM> >.< 18:36:34 <Sacro> yay for MiniIN :D 18:37:58 <Rubidium> MINM: the same person that doesn't use a mq/repository to have all required files in the same place 18:38:07 <MINM> I suppose so. 18:39:05 <LordAro> woo, redvsblue was good this week 18:39:49 <MINM> got .grfs, still won't start 18:40:18 <LordAro> have you tried starting it from the console? 18:40:28 <LordAro> that may tell you why it isn't starting 18:41:50 <Eddi|zuHause> MINM: the installing instructions include renaming a grf 18:42:33 *** Rezt [~Rezt@81-178-202-187.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #openttd 18:43:05 <MINM> ...behold 18:43:53 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #openttd 18:44:23 <LordAro> ;) 18:44:50 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:46:24 *** erik1984 [~erik1984@vhe-490300.sshn.net] has joined #openttd 18:47:50 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #openttd 18:51:04 *** valhalla1w [~valhallas@vpn91.ext.espci.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:54:37 <appe> tron grf 18:54:40 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 18:54:43 * appe plants the idea. 18:54:49 <LordAro> MINM: now the fun part begins ;) 19:00:16 <MINM> which fun part? 19:05:02 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-076-211.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 19:07:24 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-076-211.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 19:07:57 <Belugas> #I DON"T REMEMBER 19:08:08 <Belugas> #I'VE GOT NO MEMORY OF ANYTHING 19:08:17 <Belugas> #ANYTHING AT ALL 19:11:38 <Eddi|zuHause> your caps is stuck! 19:19:51 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:21:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23057 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_order.cpp: -Fix: [NoAI] AIOrder::GetOrderCount() did not hide implicit orders. 19:26:23 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: if only he remembered where that key is located... 19:27:02 <Eddi|zuHause> damn this altzheimer desease must be getting worse... i'd blame the age :p 19:28:47 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@vpn91.ext.espci.fr] has joined #openttd 19:29:47 <Belugas> I was yelling in the office, sorry it transpired on IRC :) 19:30:09 <z-MaTRiX> hey 19:31:05 <Alberth> Belugas: your synaptic interface may need a bit more tuning :) 19:32:32 <Belugas> my synapses are tuned to overload! 19:34:14 <peter1138> I DON'T REMEMBER 19:34:16 <peter1138> I DON'T RECALL 19:34:19 <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.nahverkehr-franken.de/rbahn/img_wagen/y-wagen/bybdzf_80-35-603_vr_100424_nfo.jpg <-- that looks wrong... 19:34:19 <peter1138> I'VE GOT NO MEMORY 19:34:21 <peter1138> OF ANYTHING 19:34:25 <peter1138> ANYTHING AT ALL 19:35:26 *** blotek_ [~blotek@afrl48.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 19:36:30 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-25-150-116.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 19:36:54 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I think the stuck caps is spreading 19:37:21 <Eddi|zuHause> well he _is_ a thousand years old... 19:42:39 *** blotek [~blotek@afrl48.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:48:31 *** perk11 [~perk11@188.32.29.238] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 19:55:24 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-86-49-123-133.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:59:12 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-175.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:00:08 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fd586.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:03:50 *** snack2 [~nn@dsl-prvbrasgw1-fe05dc00-37.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 20:15:31 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 20:19:28 *** Ren [~cheez@s5375e956.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 20:20:15 <Ren> hiya 20:22:04 *** Ren [~cheez@s5375e956.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [] 20:22:50 *** Ren [~cheez@s5375e956.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 20:22:50 <Belugas> :D 20:23:59 *** Ren is now known as renske 20:25:03 <planetmaker> evening 20:25:10 <planetmaker> @whoami 20:25:10 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: planetmaker 20:25:14 <planetmaker> wow :-) 20:25:31 <renske> hi :) 20:26:36 <Rubidium> good evening renske 20:27:34 <renske> Can anyone point me in the direction of an explanation of OTTD signals that is aimed at, well, dummies? 20:27:49 <MINM> heh 20:27:51 <Yexo> have you tried the openttd wiki? 20:28:24 <MINM> http://wiki.openttd.org/Signals 20:28:45 <MINM> with that in another window, experiment! 20:29:16 <Rubidium> http://kokolokus.de/?s=blog&v=6 might be useful as well 20:29:17 <MINM> signals are things which take understanding, it comes with application 20:29:40 <renske> yeah, application and lots of crashing. 20:29:44 <renske> or maybe that's just me. 20:31:12 <renske> thanks MINM and Rubidium 20:31:20 <MINM> don't change signals when you've got a train driving around the place 20:34:22 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 20:39:32 <renske> it's mostly junctions and crossings where I get confused. I don't build super huge ones, but the signal placement is tricky. 20:40:10 <renske> because it annoys me when trains are waiting endlessly when they really don't have to. 20:40:20 <MINM> laying out the tracks in a good way is half the job, really 20:40:44 <MINM> quite a lot of junctions can do with just block signals 20:41:23 <planetmaker> though the easiest and more efficient way is: every signal which leads to a junction a path signal. done 20:42:18 <MINM> not failsafe, though 20:42:37 <renske> block signals are the most basic ones, right? 20:42:42 <MINM> yep 20:42:43 <MINM> http://wiki.openttd.org/High_Speed_4-Way_Fly-over/under 20:43:25 <MINM> this one for example, is done entirely with just block signals. works like a charm, and it's possible to maintain massive speed 20:44:00 <MINM> not to mention massive capacity 20:44:26 <renske> nifty! 20:45:52 <planetmaker> MINM: it is failsafe 20:46:00 <planetmaker> if you _only_ use path signals 20:46:24 <MINM> planetmaker: until a train reverses into an already reserved path 20:46:33 <planetmaker> and the junction you show is considerably more complex than any path signal junction you can build 20:47:04 <planetmaker> MINM: that only happens due to wrong signal placement... 20:47:20 <MINM> nope, Ive seen it happen with perfect placement too. 20:47:28 <planetmaker> or alternatively due to the wrong setting. 20:47:38 <planetmaker> MINM: obviously that placement then is NOT perfect 20:47:38 <MINM> wrong setting, maybe 20:47:48 <MINM> but default setting none the less. 20:47:51 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B290.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:48:06 <planetmaker> i.e. make sure the train can't reverse 20:48:11 <Elukka> renske: if you're not sure which signals to use, use path signals everywhere 20:48:15 <planetmaker> into the junction. By proper signal distance 20:48:17 <Elukka> 99% of the time they're the best ones 20:48:55 <planetmaker> the rule of placement with path signals is also only one very simple one: Put one where you want a train allow to stop 20:49:08 <renske> aw, but I want fancy signals! :p 20:49:12 <planetmaker> don't put one where a train shouldn't stop 20:49:20 <planetmaker> i.e. too close after a junction or so 20:49:34 <MINM> there's also this one: http://wiki.openttd.org/Transmogrified 20:49:53 <Rubidium> MINM: the default for reversing at signals is false 20:49:59 <Elukka> i think path signals ought to be the default basic signal with a prominent place in the signal menu 20:50:08 <Elukka> because they're what most players will need most of the time 20:50:09 <renske> ah, that one's aesthetically pleasing :) 20:50:09 <Rubidium> (it might have been true a long time ago though) 20:50:10 <MINM> pretty fast and compact, but capacity is slightly lower than the others 20:50:13 <Korenn> MINM: wth, that flyover page has tracks with signals going both ways. 20:50:41 <MINM> the one before transmogriefed? 20:50:49 <Korenn> yeah 20:51:01 <Korenn> the bottom left to top right track has both tracks going south-west 20:51:09 <MINM> which version? 20:51:15 <Korenn> the top one 20:52:28 <MINM> http://wiki.openttd.org/images/4/43/Flyover.png 20:52:35 <Korenn> yes 20:52:36 <MINM> this? are you sure, I don't see a double. 20:52:40 <Korenn> it's obviously faulty 20:52:53 <Korenn> try going from bottom left to top right 20:52:57 <Korenn> what track do you take 20:53:20 <Korenn> oh wait 20:53:20 <MINM> right hand one 20:53:27 <Korenn> I think that's the strange signal grf 20:53:31 <Korenn> that i'm not used to :) 20:53:44 <MINM> yeah, the signals aren't very clear, Ill give you that 20:53:50 <Korenn> the front facing signals look like they're backwards 20:53:55 <MINM> but it's very easy to discern 20:54:16 <MINM> by default (is a setting) signals are always are on the drive side! 20:54:47 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 20:55:04 <Korenn> that's true. But apparently I tend to look for the front / back of the signals when I check them 21:03:09 <renske> I barely just moved on from point-to-point tracks. I think I'll hold off on the flyovers until I have enough trains to justify them. even though they're very cool-looking. 21:04:56 <renske> also, that transmogrified junction seems to have signals just after exits. isn't that a bad idea? if trains would stop there, they'd block the path of other trains. 21:05:38 <Elukka> yeah 21:06:26 <LordAro> gah, why is banshee using 600MiB of memeory?! 21:06:36 <LordAro> i've only 1002MiB :L 21:06:43 <LordAro> stupid memory leaks... 21:17:40 *** KouDy1 [~KouDy@ip-86-49-123-133.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:21:12 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 21:23:14 <MINM> at least it's not as bad as firefox 21:24:01 *** snorre_ [~snorre@c1A0FBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #openttd 21:24:29 <MINM> bah, Ive had enough of patching for today 21:25:49 *** snorre [~snorre@c1A0FBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:33:04 <LordAro> :) 21:34:50 <planetmaker> LordAro: why do you report insulfrog's posting as spam? 21:35:02 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-213-49-111-120.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [] 21:35:25 <LordAro> i thought i saw spam in the signature 21:35:43 <LordAro> it looked typical, perhaps i didn't look at it closely :L 21:35:55 <planetmaker> ok 21:36:02 <LordAro> sorry :) 21:36:08 <planetmaker> no worries 21:36:32 <planetmaker> it's a link to his homepage ;-) 21:36:55 <planetmaker> and looks suspicious on first sight 21:37:06 <planetmaker> I just happened to have met the guy a few times before :-P 21:37:14 <planetmaker> in irc 21:38:11 <LordAro> yeah, now that i think about it, i recognise the name too 21:38:30 <LordAro> in fact, i think i recognised it when i clicked on the topic link 21:38:46 <LordAro> just the standard automatic-absent-minded action :L 21:39:46 <planetmaker> well, just a case of 'shit happens' :-) And just closed it 21:41:36 <LordAro> :) 21:44:24 <planetmaker> I guess I'll close my eyes for a few hours now. Good night 21:46:16 <LordAro> night 21:55:13 *** LordAro [~lordaro@host86-156-236-122.range86-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so."] 21:59:30 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 22:05:45 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 22:13:09 *** renske [~cheez@s5375e956.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 22:14:31 *** Rezt [~Rezt@81-178-202-187.dsl.pipex.com] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 22:25:48 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-5d822c5f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] 22:35:36 *** erik1984 [~erik1984@vhe-490300.sshn.net] has quit [Quit: Doei!] 22:35:57 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6A7FF.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 22:36:29 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.86.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:39:08 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-178-004-186-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 22:42:36 <Arafangion> That reminds me of a friend I had in uni... 22:42:48 <Arafangion> Every single one of his emails would be automatically classified as spam, somehow. 22:42:53 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@89.246.169.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:43:06 <Arafangion> He didn't have automatic sigs or anything, just a weird way of writing. :) 22:43:34 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:49:52 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@vpn91.ext.espci.fr] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:56:19 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 23:01:15 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:03:01 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop_] 23:14:39 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-076-211.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own]