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Log for #openttd on 2nd December 2011:
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01:19:16  <nicfer> I remember that there was a patch which added an option to set a minimum distance between towns
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01:23:28  <nicfer> is it still active?
01:33:22  <Eddi|zuHause> not that i know of... but should be a rather simple patch, so likely easy to update
01:53:21  <nicfer> when I create a map, towns are often clogged up while there's a lot of open space
02:17:13  <Eddi|zuHause> that's the difference between actual randomness and perceived randomness :)
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02:48:43  <Lachie> quick question to anyone who's up, does nforenum actually support Action14?
02:50:27  <planetmaker> yes
02:51:29  <Lachie> had issues with it a few weeks ago. Thought it was sorted, but all of a sudden it's throwing up a Fatal Error for "Invalid action byte"
02:56:30  <Lachie> (I haven't actually changed anything about the sprite since it worked last)
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02:58:36  <planetmaker> old version or look at heqs or fish for examples
03:03:56  <Lachie> hmmm. I must be screwing something up royally. Actually just copy pasted the HEQS Action14 in to make sure there weren't any mistakes (they're identical) and the same error's coming up
03:04:55  <Eddi|zuHause> then it must be your version
03:05:39  <Lachie> of nforenum? downloaded straight from .org
03:06:46  <Eddi|zuHause> so what version does it say it is?
03:07:05  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you have an older version in your path
03:15:00  <Lachie> hmm, will do a little extra investigating and see what I can work out
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03:26:37  <Lachie> I had this conversation a couple of months ago with the devs, but honestly it probably would be quicker and easier to make this set clean and usable by completely rewriting it in NML.
03:28:31  <Lachie> I suppose it was always going to happen, given most of the NFO in the source is from when the set was coded in GRFMaker.
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06:10:16  <z-MaTRiX> hey
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07:55:31  <Celestar> \o
07:55:37  <Alberth> o/
08:10:05  <peter1138> \o/
08:20:11  <planetmaker> moin
08:20:19  <planetmaker> I broke the pattern ;-)
08:21:25  <Lachie> fuuu
08:22:31  <planetmaker> I got improved locks, matching the season: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=982711#p982711
08:25:01  <Alberth> pretty
08:28:47  <Alberth> arctic is so much nicer ;)
08:30:29  <peter1138> nice
08:30:59  <peter1138> can we have proper functioning locks? lol
08:34:29  <planetmaker> he :-)
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08:37:51  <appe> planetmaker: neat!
08:38:17  <appe> "685DM"?
08:46:35  <Alberth> do you have any idea how much a lock costs, so high in the mountains?
08:47:28  <Alberth> and all that just to transport snow
08:49:11  <peter1138> :)
08:52:11  <planetmaker> appe, it's my individual localization with a conversion factor of 1:1 to the pound in years < euro introduction year;-)
08:54:48  <planetmaker> btw, appe, how's your sound or music project going?
09:01:01  <appe> its so-so. im working way to much to have time with it. though, i have made some basic tunes for the tron track
09:01:20  <appe> it's not that easy making the ottd main theme 'dark and synthetic'
09:01:28  <appe> -it's + its
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09:06:37  <Alberth> "it's" means "it is", so it was correct :)
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09:08:15  <z-MaTRiX> hi
09:08:22  <z-MaTRiX> so what do you think ? http://matrix.z-labor.com/tmp/C/timertest.c
09:08:35  <z-MaTRiX> ( this uses HRT )
09:08:51  <appe> Alberth: i see, thank you.
09:09:38  <z-MaTRiX> Timer resolution: 1 ns
09:09:38  <z-MaTRiX> usleep(+0.1s) took: 0.1000783600 seconds
09:09:38  <z-MaTRiX> relative nanosleep(+0.1sec) took: 0.1000814360 seconds
09:09:38  <z-MaTRiX> absolute nanosleep(+0.1sec) took: 0.1000629980 seconds
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09:15:02  <Alberth> more like you get time in nano seconds, I think
09:16:21  <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> can we have proper functioning locks? lol <-- when we have objects with a state machine :p
09:17:10  <Celestar> erm
09:17:13  <Celestar> airports have state machines :D
09:17:25  <Celestar> we could use the airport state machine for locks/docks?
09:18:13  <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
09:18:23  <Eddi|zuHause> that's the plan
09:18:40  <Eddi|zuHause> which is like unchanged for the last 4 years :p
09:19:20  <planetmaker> NewGRF-state machines!
09:19:53  <Eddi|zuHause> nobody had the guts to finalize the spec on those
09:20:42  <Eddi|zuHause> and nobody has a clue to adapt them for articulated vehicles (for road stations)
09:21:21  <Alberth> ships should be much easier :p
09:23:50  <planetmaker> well. If there's NewGRF state machines for planes, then generalizing that to other vehicle types should be relatively easy.
09:24:01  <planetmaker> In comparison to devising sane specs in the first place
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09:42:50  <dihedral> greetings
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09:52:36  <dihedral> TrueBrain, what kind of interaction with the admin network were you thinking of / can you think of
09:53:06  <planetmaker> we can think of all :-)
09:53:32  <planetmaker> but at least it needs things like 'game finished' or possibly 'goal finished % by company' or similar
09:54:54  <dihedral> "all" sounds like making too much of the api transparent to the admin network
09:55:28  <dihedral> what about something along the lines of an interaction between the current script and the admin network?
09:55:49  <Eddi|zuHause> that is already implemented
09:56:00  <dihedral> it is?
09:56:02  <Eddi|zuHause> you can pass JSON objects back and forth
09:56:05  <dihedral> i did not read about that
09:56:08  <dihedral> yikes
09:56:09  <dihedral> \o/
09:56:13  <dihedral> whoopies
09:57:37  <dihedral> ah - found it ^^
10:01:28  <dihedral> very nice indeed
10:07:35  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: from my point of view, it is more meant for: this player won this time, give him some cookies on the ladder system ;)
10:07:47  <TrueBrain> and yeah, dihedral, I was about to say: it is no longer thinking, it is a finished product
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10:09:33  <planetmaker> TrueBrain, yes, that'll be a very nice thing
10:09:51  <planetmaker> Can I just add, TrueBrain, that I think it'll be nice to have GS libs, too?
10:10:17  <TrueBrain> I still wonder if it matter (at all), one way or the other
10:11:46  <TrueBrain> codewise it is a matter of a few statements btw, I left everything in place to support libs
10:11:53  <Eddi|zuHause> having libs makes it (imho) easier from a coder's point of view
10:11:57  <TrueBrain> after the language stuff, I guess we will have to talk it over (once more, lolz)
10:12:11  <Eddi|zuHause> especially wrt keeping the modular parts up to date
10:12:12  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: the same 'argument' was used for NoAI, and see how many libs are there :P
10:12:18  <z-MaTRiX> hi guys
10:12:35  <z-MaTRiX> printf("(%f,%f)\n",x0+f*i+(f^1)*j,y0+f*j+(f^1)*i); or (f)?printf("(%d,%f)\n",x0+i,y0+j):printf("(%f,%d)\n",x0+j,y0+i); ?
10:12:39  <TrueBrain> if the past is any representation of the present, it sounds good to have, but in reality is never used
10:12:48  <TrueBrain> @kban z-MaTRiX 60 I asked you a few times already to stop with the random strings of nonsense
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10:14:04  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: but like said, your lib is most likely the first I have seen that would be really worth it to be called a lib (next to the few we made with the introduction of NoAI
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10:14:46  <dihedral> <TrueBrain> and yeah, dihedral, I was about to say: it is no longer thinking, it is a finished product <- and nicely done indeed :-)
10:14:55  <TrueBrain> tnx
10:16:46  <Lachie> strings, yay.
10:17:00  <dihedral> beautiful musical instruments
10:17:44  <Eddi|zuHause> if you're into that kind of thing :p
10:18:43  <Celestar> what was the status of newGRF airport state machines?
10:20:43  <Eddi|zuHause> something about pikka suggesting a spec, yexo(?) implementing it, but neither being really content with it
10:21:30  <Eddi|zuHause> statemachines are the only part of newgrf-airports that's not in trunk yet
10:21:33  <Celestar> I did something with RichK  abtou 3 years ago :P
10:21:42  <Celestar> including some new airports with crossing runways :D
10:21:50  <Eddi|zuHause> richk kinda... left... :p
10:21:59  <Celestar> yah
10:22:24  <V453000> hmm why do all newGRFs in r23321 automatically get added in the wrong palette? :S
10:22:45  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: because you haven't set the default palette
10:22:58  <V453000> oh
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10:23:22  <dihedral> <Celestar> I did something with RichK  abtou 3 years ago :P <- spare us the details
10:23:42  <Celestar> rofl
10:24:09  <Eddi|zuHause> "one time, in college" :p
10:24:18  <dihedral> that's probably what he said, too :-P
10:29:19  <Celestar> oh man BBT is soo great
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10:32:09  <V453000> does anyone remember any metro/narrow gauge track set which uses railtypes?
10:32:10  <dihedral> \o/ Belugas :-)
10:33:11  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: yes. oberhÃŒmer and snail currently have narrow gauge rail sets under development
10:33:24  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: and the metro track set should even be on bananas
10:33:42  <Lachie> alrighty, is there some fancy awesome way to use a makefile with NML so I can split the .nml files up for ease of development or do I have to do it the old fashioned and dirty way?
10:34:06  <V453000> there are 3 or 4 of them on bananas
10:34:14  <Eddi|zuHause> Lachie: checked out the devzone's makefile?
10:35:15  <Lachie> will take a looksie
10:36:07  <Eddi|zuHause> Lachie: planetmaker will probably be able to help you out there
10:37:19  <appe> i dreamt of being a planet maker when i was a kid
10:37:46  <appe> after listening to some douglas adams audio books
10:37:47  <planetmaker> Lachie, I prepared a build framework which uses gcc in order to allow you to use several nml files as common source to one NewGRF
10:37:50  <appe> guess wish one.
10:37:50  <appe> ..
10:39:49  <planetmaker> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/newgrf-makefile and read-to-go downloads of it are found at http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/newgrf_makefile/nightlies/LATEST/
10:39:49  <V453000> planetmaker: is there a new release of swedish rails coming which works with the tunnels? :)
10:40:01  <planetmaker> it's on bananas
10:40:42  <planetmaker> ^ @ V453000
10:40:58  <V453000> ooh I see
10:41:24  <V453000> I have tunnels as "normal" but it does overwrite them with new swedish rail tunnels
10:41:30  <V453000> I use alpine landscape there
10:42:04  <V453000> might be unexpected behaviour?
10:43:08  <V453000> ^ pm
10:43:57  <V453000> if I load alpine climate after swedish rails, it works and the rails are kept, but it is weird
10:47:46  <planetmaker> that's expected and intended
10:47:55  <planetmaker> I can't use the default ones as they don't match
10:48:27  <planetmaker> doesn't it give a warning about that?
10:48:37  <planetmaker> (check newgrf config window)
10:49:03  <planetmaker> it's just a little text on top of the description when active, not a red error box)
10:49:43  <V453000> only says the "you should NOT configure it in MP"
10:50:08  <V453000> isnt it supposed to just not use the swedish rail tunnels when that parameter is unchanged?
10:50:08  <planetmaker> Not the parameter description.
10:50:16  <Lachie> excellent, now checking that out.
10:50:17  <planetmaker> The main NewGRF window
10:50:29  <V453000> ah, no eorror or such info there
10:50:33  <planetmaker> where you see the desc of the (active) newgrf
10:50:43  <V453000> all fine
10:51:06  <planetmaker> and you use 0.7.2?
10:51:16  <V453000> yes
10:52:32  <planetmaker> and you use which alpine climate?
10:53:24  <V453000> the old one from michael blunkc
10:53:26  <V453000> ck
10:53:27  <planetmaker> and you're sure that the tunnels you see are not from mb?
10:54:05  <V453000> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/20419525/tunnel.png
10:54:07  <planetmaker> because it either should issues a warning (must load after alpine) or use its own tunnels
10:54:36  <planetmaker> thus "warning" or "my own" is the only option for tunnels with that newgrf
10:55:05  <planetmaker> hm... though. No, default should work
10:55:16  <V453000> uhm but what does the parameter actually do then? When "normal" overwrites tunnels
10:55:45  <V453000> it doesnt overwrite them in "normal" climates so why should it in alpine
10:56:02  <planetmaker> it shouldn't either, if you left the tunnel param to 'default'
10:56:08  <V453000> I did
10:56:09  <planetmaker> I mis-read my own code ;-)
10:56:13  <V453000> it is visible in the screenshot :)
10:57:35  <planetmaker> well, then it doesn't work
10:57:39  <planetmaker> and is a bug
10:57:42  <V453000> arr
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10:58:41  <V453000> by the way, I might have a suggestion, why not allow swedish rails to replace also monorail/maglev? Would get really super useful when one needs to replace for example monorail(metro) tracks and maglev (shinkansen) tracks
10:59:52  <planetmaker> yes. Can you make me tickets, please? :-)
10:59:56  <V453000> of course :)
11:00:12  <planetmaker> I could swear I tested the tunnels... :S
11:00:21  <planetmaker> for EVERY landscape NewGRF i could find
11:00:52  <Eddi|zuHause> alpine is like the oldest of them...
11:01:13  <planetmaker> I know. And I have special code to take care of it
11:01:33  <planetmaker> (as I do for every landscape newgrf I found ;-) )
11:01:46  <planetmaker> which means... there's like two or three japanese ones with unique ids.
11:02:03  <planetmaker> which indeed are more or less sophisticated
11:02:56  <V453000> yeah and all of them behave differently :|
11:03:04  <planetmaker> yep
11:03:21  <planetmaker> in any case: thanks for finding and reporting all these quirks, v :-)
11:04:55  <V453000> pleasure as always :)
11:10:51  * planetmaker wonders... can I skip action14 via action7/9?
11:11:15  <Eddi|zuHause> why would you do that?
11:11:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say "won't have any effect, because action14 is evaluated before any of the action7/9 take effect"
11:12:01  <planetmaker> display a parameter depending on openttd version
11:13:29  <Yexo> Eddi is right, it's not possible, not was it ever intended to be possible
11:13:38  <Eddi|zuHause> at the time action14 is read, action7/9 is a nop
11:16:10  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: such checks could only be implemented within the action14 itself
11:17:05  <planetmaker> ottd_minversion and ottd_maxversion as additional descriptions to entries ;-)
11:17:59  <Eddi|zuHause> well, a "conditional" container type
11:18:00  <planetmaker> might actually be quite straight forward...
11:21:40  <Yexo> is there really a need for that?
11:22:38  <Eddi|zuHause> show certain parameters only when newgrf_developer is set
11:23:04  <Alberth> just adds to the confusion imho, screenshots of the parameters are not always the same for the same grf
11:30:42  <planetmaker> Yexo, there's not yet a (strong) need for that. But I can imagine parameters which don't make sense with old OpenTTD versions
11:31:13  <Yexo> I can't image many such parameters, especially since newgrfs tend to have the need to require a new openttd version anyway
11:31:31  <planetmaker> If they require that, then the need is small. Indeed
11:32:11  <planetmaker> But e.g. for a vehicle NewGRF which wants to declare parameters which e.g. set cargo aging influences or so
11:32:41  <Yexo> put a string in the description it only works for openttd > x.y.z
11:32:51  <planetmaker> But... don't bother yourself with such feature. There's many more important things and it was when I asked mostly a thing I wondered about
11:32:59  <planetmaker> And of course what you just said, is done :-)
11:33:10  <V453000> what should the newgrf_default_palette be? both 0 and 1 seem to not work
11:33:14  <planetmaker> other condition might be (non) presence of another NewGRF
11:33:24  <Ammler> German speaking guys, what is the German word for Backslash?
11:33:44  <planetmaker> the key on the keyboard?
11:33:50  <Ammler> \
11:33:59  <Yexo> V453000: both 0 and 1 should work :p
11:34:01  <planetmaker> umgekehrter SchrÀgstrich?
11:34:08  <Ammler> echt? :-D
11:34:15  <b_jonas> look it up in a dictionary. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/backslash lists some
11:34:36  <planetmaker> V453000, you made sure to exit openttd. edit setting. and re-start openttd?
11:34:40  <V453000> Yexo: now 1 works ... somehow :o
11:34:45  <planetmaker> and re-add the newgrfs to the active list?
11:34:55  <V453000> planetmaker: sure I did :) but somehow it did not work on the first change :D
11:34:58  <V453000> anyway, it works now :)
11:35:28  <planetmaker> Ammler, without looking up anything, that's what I'd use, yes
11:35:34  <Yexo> V453000: it's broken indeed
11:35:41  <planetmaker> quite a bulky word ;-)
11:35:47  <V453000> hm :)
11:35:51  <Yexo> it only works after changing the setting in-game, or rescanning the newgrf list
11:35:55  <Ammler> planetmaker: yes, I hoped there is a shorter term, your word is also in the dicts
11:36:33  <b_jonas> leaning toothpick
11:46:15  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r23393 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix (r23382): AI / NewGRF sub-windows were now hidden under their parent windows
11:54:28  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes german words are "bulky" compared to their english counterparts :)
11:55:26  <Lachie> alright. Enough setting up done for tonight. Will continue work tomorrow.
12:02:36  <planetmaker> sometimes there's not a good English word, though, either: DonaudampfschiffskapitÀnskajÌtenschlÌssel ;-)
12:04:35  <Eddi|zuHause> key-to-the-door-of-the-cabin-of-the-captain-of-a-steam-ship-on-the-danube (in reverse order)
12:05:58  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, no... without "door"
12:07:25  <planetmaker> http://www.powned.tv/nieuws/media/2011/11/buma_stemra_bestuurder_corrupt.html <-- nice
12:08:19  <^Spike^> ehm..
12:08:43  <^Spike^> http://3voor12.vpro.nl/artikelen/artikel/45372379
12:08:47  <^Spike^> better add that aswell then :)
12:09:20  <planetmaker> I didn't yet find that :-)
12:09:26  <planetmaker> My Dutch is not exactly fluent
12:09:35  <^Spike^> just read that in a tweet on a music site :D
12:09:41  <^Spike^> google translate prob helps alot ;)
12:11:22  <planetmaker> might. But then I prefer to read it in the original
12:11:28  <^Spike^> :)
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12:12:39  <MNIM> well, the headline from the first, powned reads this: the director from buma/stemra (our national copyright organisation) is corrupt
12:14:11  <MNIM> it's the original article, and the second seems to be going deeper into the matter.
12:16:29  <^Spike^> it's not like powned always does that.. showing the full story..
12:18:59  <MNIM> well, it *is* a public channel based on geenstijl, which isn't unlike a dutch 4chan...
12:23:34  <^Spike^> that's what i meant :)
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13:00:21  <__ln__> @seen Bjarni
13:00:21  <DorpsGek> __ln__: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 8 weeks, 0 days, 12 hours, 43 minutes, and 56 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
13:01:36  <Celestar> famous last words
13:01:39  <Celestar> "heh"
13:01:59  <Celestar> "I think there's a badger living on our chimney, hand me that flashlight"
13:02:00  <Celestar> :P
13:02:45  <Eddi|zuHause> [Dienstag, 6. September 2011] [22:10:57] <DorpsGek>     __ln__: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 23 weeks, 1 day, 20 hours, 48 minutes, and 54 seconds ago: <Bjarni> thanks
13:03:00  <Eddi|zuHause> [Mittwoch, 2. MÀrz 2011] [12:20:18] <DorpsGek>  __ln__: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 0 weeks, 5 days, 11 hours, 54 minutes, and 53 seconds ago: <Bjarni> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wVADKznOhY <-- wtf. Some rich guy built a trebuchet and uses burning pianos as ammo
13:03:09  <Eddi|zuHause> THOSE were "famous last words" :p
13:03:43  <planetmaker> :-)
13:04:51  <Eddi|zuHause> > grep "Bjarni was last" openttd.log | wc -l
13:04:52  <Eddi|zuHause> 124
13:05:00  <Eddi|zuHause> this guy sure is popular :p
13:05:52  <Eddi|zuHause> > grep "was last seen" openttd.log | grep DorpsGek | wc -l
13:05:53  <Eddi|zuHause> 730
13:06:22  <Eddi|zuHause> 17% of all "@seen"s
13:21:13  <dihedral> i just wanted to say - "Bjarni was last" could also catch a game he lost :-P
13:23:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no records of Bjarni ever playing a game :p
13:29:53  <Celestar> rofl
13:30:20  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: how many of those were me?
13:30:25  <Sacro> @seen Bjarni
13:30:25  <DorpsGek> Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 8 weeks, 0 days, 13 hours, 14 minutes, and 0 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
13:31:02  <Celestar> Amazon spams me more than all other spammers taken together ....
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13:32:47  <Joostlek> hi
13:33:08  <Eddi|zuHause> 46 Sacro, 11+4+4+4+1 *ln*, 17+10 dih, some rest
13:34:00  <Sacro> who
13:34:01  <Sacro> *whoo
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14:18:05  <Belugas> hello
14:20:28  <planetmaker> hello Belugas
14:24:00  <Belugas> hey you :)
14:33:38  <dihedral> @seen Zuu
14:33:39  <DorpsGek> dihedral: Zuu was last seen in #openttd 17 hours, 45 minutes, and 44 seconds ago: <Zuu> Does GameScripts have a short name domain of its own or must GS short names not conflict with AI short names?
14:42:20  <Terkhen> hello
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14:53:00  * Alberth waves hi to all new inhabitants
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15:13:48  * andythenorth is amused
15:14:41  <andythenorth> NoGo is being treated as the magic fix to all the things the game doesn't do
15:14:46  <andythenorth> 'invent a feature'
15:14:54  <andythenorth> 'NoGo could do that'
15:14:55  <andythenorth> :P
15:17:04  <glx> looks like newgrf ;)
15:17:07  <andythenorth> it's being seen like a pony farm :P
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15:33:37  <Belugas> damned... christmas party tonigh.  We are already drinking.  the keyboard does not feel right.  it MOVES
15:33:57  <blathijs> Aren't you a bit early with Christmas? :-)
15:34:46  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Why do you think nobody sane reads the Suggestions forum? :p On our forum people generally seem to only read the word "suggestion" and totally ignore any context, thus any suggestions thread automatically degenerates to "But I want my pony, too".
15:35:07  <MNIM> wait
15:35:14  <MNIM> I can't have my pony?
15:35:15  <MNIM> T.T
15:35:39  <andythenorth> michi_cc: the suggestions forum usually creates rage++
15:35:49  <andythenorth> but the NoGo thread is in the dev forum :P
15:36:23  <Yexo> I've been wondering on splitting the last two pages or so and dumping those in the suggestions forum
15:36:55  <andythenorth> more brutality in the answers :P
15:37:01  <planetmaker> well. TB asked for it
15:37:07  <planetmaker> explicitly to also go wild
15:37:12  <andythenorth> tis true
15:37:20  <Yexo> yes, that was obviously a mistake
15:37:24  <andythenorth> nah maybe not
15:37:35  <andythenorth> might be diamonds in the dust
15:37:46  <andythenorth> and most of my questions / suggestions are stupid
15:38:12  <andythenorth> probably let it run
15:38:30  <andythenorth> then file lots of suggestions under "you are asking for a change in ottd's framework(s)"
15:39:21  <planetmaker> yes, just let it run. Doesn't really hurt
15:39:25  <Yexo> most of the suggestions are not stupid, they are just totally different from the NoGo framework
15:40:06  <andythenorth> would it help to clarify what NoGo actually does?
15:40:18  <andythenorth> e.g. it can do getter / setter stuff on things that exist
15:40:22  <andythenorth> but can't do anything new
15:40:34  <Yexo> perhaps, it'd help a lot more to get everybody who is not planning on writing a nogo script out of that topic
15:40:54  <planetmaker> the problem is: these boundaries are somewhat clear when you have at least a rough idea of implementation details
15:41:10  <planetmaker> you totally have no clue where boundaries are when you're not into the technical details
15:41:35  <andythenorth> I have no idea of the implementation, but I know about getter / setter type approaches
15:41:38  <planetmaker> nah, I think having _now_ this brainstorming by everyone is quite good
15:41:59  <planetmaker> filtering out the obviously illusionary ones is not that bad IMHO
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15:42:22  <planetmaker> and with a felt ~33% which won't work it's quite ok
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15:46:10  <Belugas> blathijs, yes we are, but that's what happen when boss reserves a restaurant too late :)  he cannot choose the dates !
15:49:26  <blathijs> :-)
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18:42:57  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23394 /trunk/src/lang/ (german.txt italian.txt russian.txt spanish.txt):
18:42:57  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:42:57  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: german - 2 changes by planetmaker
18:42:57  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: italian - 2 changes by lorenzodv
18:42:57  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
18:42:58  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: spanish - 2 changes by Terkhen
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19:26:04  <andythenorth> so a NoGo script can directly manipulate my company?
19:26:09  <andythenorth> that seems...odd
19:28:22  <andythenorth> I didn't expect that the goal of NoGo was to provide things like helper scripts, macros etc
19:28:41  * andythenorth may have misunderstood the forum
19:29:05  <Zuu> A NoGo can switch to any company and execute actions as that company.
19:29:39  <Zuu> If this is good or not can be questionable. I think even TrueBrain said so.
19:29:56  <andythenorth> I can see why people would want that
19:30:04  <andythenorth> but it seems at best odd
19:30:26  <Terkhen> don't use scripts that might interfere with your company
19:30:38  <andythenorth> how would you know without reading them?
19:30:54  <Terkhen> you read the script description
19:30:59  <andythenorth> you read the source
19:31:15  * Terkhen does not need to read FIRS source to know that it adds industries
19:31:35  <andythenorth> hmm
19:31:38  <frosch123> andythenorth: helper functions are only an abuse of the feature
19:31:50  <andythenorth> this would make infrastructure sharing patch unneeded
19:32:24  <frosch123> you can use it to destroy company stuff, award free engines, punish companies, ...
19:32:26  <andythenorth> just make GUI events NoGo events
19:32:49  <frosch123> take the teleporter thingie as example :p
19:32:50  <andythenorth> then one player can participate in another players company
19:33:07  * andythenorth thinks this is actually a very bad idea
19:33:10  <andythenorth> but meh
19:34:05  <frosch123> it is common behaviour of quests in various other games to make some units/heros appear somewhere and leave somewhere else
19:34:13  <andythenorth> at least it makes the lemmings 'nuke' button possible
19:34:17  <andythenorth> might as well add a custom gui
19:34:33  <andythenorth> NoGo should be able to add gui buttons of it's own
19:34:37  <andythenorth> its / it's /s
19:34:44  <frosch123> this also includes stuff like "you are offered these 10 engines. use them for free in the next 24 months; but you have to return them save"
19:35:06  <frosch123> s/save/in good shape/
19:35:49  <Yexo> andythenorth: nogo is server-only, it doesn't run on any of the clients
19:36:18  <andythenorth> it seems odd to spend so much time restricting MP griefing opportunities, then open up a griefer's dream
19:36:49  <andythenorth> plus a whole new class of bug reports
19:37:08  <andythenorth> "I was playing a game, and half my track disappeared"
19:37:15  <andythenorth> "Were you playing a NoGo game?"
19:37:16  <andythenorth> "Yes"
19:37:22  <andythenorth> "Sorry we can't support games using NoGo"
19:37:43  <Yexo> andythenorth: but only the server owner would be able to do taht
19:38:00  <Yexo> the server owner can already grief in various ways, for example by dropping all your commands
19:38:27  <andythenorth> and the savegame would include the NoGo script?
19:38:35  <Yexo> how does that matter?
19:38:56  <andythenorth> debugging?
19:38:58  <Yexo> it would include the name of the NoGo script but not the contents
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19:40:11  <andythenorth> I'm not worried what any particular server does.  What I'm curious about is would we start discounting bugs as 'must be NoGo', then miss some real bugs?
19:40:47  <Yexo> I'm not worried about that at all
19:41:23  <frosch123> we also do that with grfs. "grfs were changed? it must be your fault" even if the bug is totally unrelated :p
19:41:48  <planetmaker> :-D
19:42:17  <planetmaker> andythenorth: griefing is only really an issue for clients
19:42:21  <MNIM> I agree with frosch123 there >.>
19:42:31  <planetmaker> malicious servers can't be really treated or ruled out
19:43:35  <Zuu> While malicious servers could override it, it would maybe be useful to have a flag in the MP game list if that particular server uses NoGo or not.
19:44:22  <andythenorth> it's probably useful to be able to do some amusing evil
19:44:27  <andythenorth> like last man standing
19:44:41  <andythenorth> 'deliver x to this town, and destroy a competitor'
19:44:41  <andythenorth> etc
19:44:53  <andythenorth> although that could be done by simply closing company
19:45:04  <andythenorth> I find it odd that GS can literally build track etc for me
19:46:14  <Zuu> I have been thinking about throwing in the tutorial/NoGo question somewhere to let people think about that and not just disasters :-)
19:47:27  <frosch123> andythenorth: the gs could also do the building only at start; then the scenario would be "make this mess profittable" :p
19:47:45  <andythenorth> I'm sure there are creative ways to use it
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19:48:16  <andythenorth> it's just weird to go from no scripts, to have a multi-purpose scripting engine that can literally do anything
19:48:26  <andythenorth> so new disasters and such could be done
19:48:38  <Wolf01> hello
19:48:44  <andythenorth> we could just forget some of the game's current frameworks and script everything
19:49:41  <Zuu> However, then execution speed kicks in and make some ideas too slow to execute as GS :-)
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19:52:47  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
19:55:52  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23395 /:
19:56:01  <Wolf01> lol?
19:56:25  <Terkhen> lazy CIA-6
19:59:01  <Rubidium> nah, more OOM-ish (stupid svnserve)
20:00:04  <Wolf01> I often commit with [ as commit message because I press ctrl+enter, but it's not that bad as I'm the admin too so I can change the commit message :P
20:01:24  <Wolf01> but really I can't understand how trying to write [] makes me sending the commit instead
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20:12:11  <andythenorth> so GS could do .e.g coal mine disaster
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20:16:17  <Terkhen> maybe
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20:22:00  <andythenorth> so what colour is bauxite?
20:23:12  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i have that problem when trying to write '
20:24:17  <andythenorth> most of my smileys end up as : because for some reason I hit enter instead of ) or P
20:30:01  <Terkhen> bauxite-ish
20:31:51  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that happens when i am either very fast, or i don't hit the key correctly
20:32:17  <Eddi|zuHause> often i type ( instead of ) and hit enter before i can correct it
20:32:28  <Rubidium> andythenorth: if I understand it correctly any colour would be right (tm)
20:33:35  <planetmaker> andythenorth: from what I searched it's very diverse
20:34:06  <andythenorth> it amuses me that there's so much discussion :)
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20:39:25  <andythenorth> bah
20:39:25  <andythenorth> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-16000331
20:40:47  <Rubidium> so now the prophecy is that it won't be happening?
20:41:56  <Belugas> let it snow, let is snow, let is snow
20:42:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i should earn my money prophecising(?) that "the world doesn't end today. if i'm wrong, you don't have to pay me"
20:42:25  <frosch123> oh, so the world will not end before dbset is released?
20:42:36  <andythenorth> you don't know that
20:42:54  <andythenorth> maybe it will be for christmas :P
20:43:03  <Belugas> funny thing, people got scared over stuff they did not understand
20:43:05  <andythenorth> a dbset is for life, not just for christmas
20:43:19  <Belugas> it's not about end of world, but end of an era
20:43:26  <Belugas> silly people
20:43:52  <Rubidium> *if* dbset will be released, it will definitely be released before christmas
20:44:20  <andythenorth> care to state which year? :P
20:44:28  <frosch123> it's always before the next christmas and after the last one
20:44:34  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: and what if the world ending falls exactly between dbset and christmas?
20:44:45  <andythenorth> if you people would help me, you might get a new truck set :P
20:44:58  <Eddi|zuHause> or... if islam wins over christianity?
20:45:24  <frosch123> what does christmas have to do with christianity?
20:45:50  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: will islam win over commercialism?
20:46:28  <Eddi|zuHause> speaking of... anybody knows if and when there are new episodes of little mosque?
20:46:33  <Rubidium> I doubt it will, so christmas will remans... after all, it's for most purely a commercial thing
20:46:59  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: if it is about a series, then rb will know for sure :p
20:47:15  <Eddi|zuHause> worse. it's about a CANADIAN series :)
20:47:33  * andythenorth ponders
20:47:35  <Rubidium> frosch123: really?
20:47:54  <Rubidium> there aren't that many series I follow
20:48:11  <frosch123> i had the impression it were like 50+
20:48:15  <Eddi|zuHause> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Mosque_on_the_Prairie
20:48:17  <andythenorth> my truck set has ~14 rigid trucks, and ~4 articulated trucks.  ~10 of the rigid trucks could have trailers.  So 28 trucks in the buy menu?
20:48:18  <andythenorth> sounds a lot
20:48:30  <Eddi|zuHause> (roughly translates to "Unsere kleine Moschee")
20:49:51  <frosch123> andythenorth: compare that to the number of busses of the average rv set :p
20:50:06  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: wikpedia says that if season 6 is done there won't be
20:51:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: my archive goes up to season 5 only
20:52:49  <andythenorth> how many buses are there in the average RV set? :P
20:53:39  <frosch123> too many
20:53:44  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: maybe you should try to cut down on the 14 trucks? the question is not really how many you have, but how many of them will be available simultaneously
20:54:02  <Eddi|zuHause> so you should maybe phase out vehicles
20:54:21  <andythenorth> it's tricky
20:54:45  <andythenorth> I'm doing the 'upgraded stats' approach
20:54:56  <andythenorth> but with alternating models, out of step
20:55:07  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: then what's the unique outstanding property of each of the 14 trucks?
20:55:19  <andythenorth> maybe the capacities are too closely spaced
20:57:51  <andythenorth> I can probably eliminate at least 3 trucks from the 14
20:59:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm really not fond of "stat upgrades"
20:59:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i hate it with aircraft
20:59:31  <Eddi|zuHause> just offer a new prototype like regular people...
20:59:44  <Eddi|zuHause> it will be properly announced in the news
21:00:54  <Eddi|zuHause> it's "'realism' for people who already know the real thing". not for the average game player, who has to discover things first
21:02:12  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I use 'engines never expire'
21:02:23  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes. but not all people do.
21:02:34  <andythenorth> I'm not developing grfs for all people :)
21:03:02  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'm telling you. engines expiring easily solves your overcrowded buy list issue :p
21:03:24  <andythenorth> I know
21:03:31  <andythenorth> but that's not a setting I use :P
21:03:58  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but you should design and test your sets with the setting in mind
21:03:59  <andythenorth> don't even remember why tbh
21:04:34  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. HEQS gets totally annoying after a while. you have 10 mining trucks, each slightly bigger than the previous. while you could just as easily hide all but the biggest
21:04:48  <andythenorth> hmm
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21:04:55  <andythenorth> I thought I set expiry dates on those
21:05:08  * andythenorth checks
21:05:10  <andythenorth> might be a bug
21:05:21  <andythenorth> HEQS mixes both approaches
21:05:23  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should make use of the "early retirement" property
21:05:42  <Terkhen> would making subsidies more common be a bad idea?
21:05:53  <Eddi|zuHause> even though a vehicle has a lifetime of 40-60 years, it needs only be available for 10-15, until a newer model comes out
21:06:02  * andythenorth checks
21:06:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: offer a setting?
21:06:28  <Terkhen> urgh
21:06:40  <Terkhen> the problem is that I can't determine probabilities in a precise way
21:06:43  <Terkhen> :P
21:06:51  <andythenorth> subsidies are a GS shaped problem
21:07:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: imho there should be a few subsidies already in place on game start
21:07:26  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: seems all the mining trucks have class life 25 years
21:07:27  <Eddi|zuHause> because that's the only place where you actually need them (in the current environment)
21:07:51  <Terkhen> both GS and different subsidy handling are out of the scope of my queue, I'm just fixing the default subsidies
21:08:21  <andythenorth> brr
21:08:31  <andythenorth> HEQS intro dates are mostly pure hex, no escapes at all :(
21:09:03  <Eddi|zuHause> happy counting of days :)
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21:14:01  <andythenorth> hmm
21:14:09  <andythenorth> when is class life not class life?
21:14:16  <andythenorth> @calc 2010 - 1979
21:14:16  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 31
21:15:05  <andythenorth> hmm
21:15:08  <andythenorth> this truck won't go away
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21:15:46  <planetmaker> yeah. vehicles usually drive.
21:15:54  <planetmaker> or they're called battle droids or so ;-)
21:16:13  <andythenorth> 41 years
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21:16:20  <andythenorth> is there randomisation on class life?
21:17:17  <Eddi|zuHause> afair yes
21:17:21  <planetmaker> there's different stages... http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Vehicles
21:17:45  <andythenorth> ah
21:17:52  <andythenorth> up to 17 years :P
21:18:01  <planetmaker> yes
21:18:12  <planetmaker> it's imho totally unintuitive ;-)
21:18:21  <Eddi|zuHause> not rather 17 months?
21:18:25  <planetmaker> years
21:18:26  *** Hawson [~hawson@174-143-252-250.slicehost.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:18:32  <planetmaker> see phase 3
21:18:42  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I can't entirely fix your problem
21:18:45  <andythenorth> :(
21:19:13  <Eddi|zuHause> oh. the phase 3 you mean. that's totally irrelevant if you set early retirement to something other than 0
21:20:02  <andythenorth> right
21:20:06  <planetmaker> if
21:20:11  <Eddi|zuHause> so the initial 0-512 days, plus the 7-38 months of phase 1 are the "relevant" randomisation
21:20:23  <andythenorth> I always wondered what those props were for :P
21:23:08  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in CETS the (unimplemented) plan was something like: if vehicle life is 30 years, and the next vehicle comes out after 10 years, the model life should be 40+x years (10+30+x) and early retirement 30 years
21:23:18  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: do you want to patch HEQS? :P
21:23:26  <Eddi|zuHause> where x is some overlap to cover the randomness
21:23:26  <andythenorth> otherwise I write a ticket
21:23:39  <andythenorth> for the mining trucks the overlap can be quite limited
21:24:07  <andythenorth> I didn't understand how prop 04 works, so already the intention was only a few years overlap
21:24:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i once calculated x should be around 4 years
21:24:38  *** Hawson [~hawson@174-143-252-250.slicehost.net] has joined #openttd
21:25:35  <Eddi|zuHause> but this should undergo some testing
21:27:25  <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3312
21:30:53  *** Hawson_ [~hawson@174-143-252-250.slicehost.net] has joined #openttd
21:31:36  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so I use 'engines never expire' to keep small trucks in egrvts
21:31:47  <andythenorth> a new truck set ends that
21:32:05  <andythenorth> but that's immaterial to set design
21:32:51  *** Hawson [~hawson@174-143-252-250.slicehost.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:36:26  <andythenorth> hmm
21:37:45  <andythenorth> NARS 2 has 20-30 engines in the buy menu
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21:58:29  <planetmaker> g'night
21:59:13  <andythenorth> bye planetmaker
22:00:36  <Lachie> night
22:07:19  *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [Quit: Sla Mutant Co-Op for Renegade - coming back soon]
22:10:52  <andythenorth> maybe 6 rigid trucks
22:11:02  <andythenorth> then all duplicated to add trailers :P
22:15:00  <Terkhen> good night
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22:39:08  * frosch123 is confused
22:39:23  <frosch123> why does the java Integer class not have a setter function
22:39:33  <frosch123> am i not allowed to change value after construction? :o
22:40:25  <TrueBrain> lol
22:43:18  <Rubidium> frosch123: because you generally avoid using the Integer class in favour of just int
22:43:27  <Rubidium> (except when you put it in collections)
22:43:38  <frosch123> exactly that i am doing :p
22:43:50  <Rubidium> is it performance critical?
22:43:55  <Rubidium> if not, use AtomicInteger ;)
22:44:24  *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc1-aztw25-2-0-cust298.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
22:44:31  <frosch123> nah, i just noticed that this does not work anyway this way :p
22:48:49  <TrueBrain> you are programming in Java; what did you expect? *troll*
22:54:46  <Rubidium> pff... Java is the easiest language we use at work for sane and proper databasew work ;)
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22:57:45  <Lachie> morning all, anyone familiar with using the DevZone makefile around?
22:58:39  *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
22:58:39  <Lachie> (or anything development environment related at all, really)
22:59:14  * Zuu was just about to think about going to bed, but good morning :-)
23:00:06  <Rubidium> Lachie: I think everyone really familiar with it is asleep
23:02:17  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:03:04  <Lachie> rightio. I'm a bit of a noob for these sort of things. Used to do a tiiiiny bit of that sort of stuff years ago, but for all intents and purposes I'm just starting out. Issue is, I can't seem to work out how to get mingw to use Mercurial. Just comes up with hg: command not found
23:03:30  *** JVassie [~James@2.27.87.71] has joined #openttd
23:03:41  <Lachie> I've searched through the documentation for mercurial and mingw and can't find where I might be going wrong. I thought someone may have an idea
23:04:14  <Zuu> Did you install mercurial with the mingw installer or a the stand alone Mercurial installer?
23:04:52  <Zuu> (I don't know if mingw have this option, but cygwin does and on at least one pc I have hg installed that way, but at least one the other way too)
23:05:04  <Lachie> standalone, mingw didn't have the option
23:05:29  <Zuu> Make sure that the PATH environment variable get set so that it includes the directory wher your hg.exe is.
23:05:46  <Zuu> You probably sholud figure out where your .bashrc (or _bashrc) is located.
23:06:50  <Zuu> In there you can update PATH to include the path to hg. Assuming that mingw can have paths to anywhere on your filesystem or at least that you have installed Mercurial in a place which mingw can reach.
23:06:52  <Lachie> okay, I'm silly. I don't why I didn't think of that, considering I did the same thing with NML five minutes before
23:08:26  <Lachie> thanks for that, I'll give it a whirl when I get home. In the meantime, work tiemz.
23:08:49  *** Klanticus [~quassel@200-158-19-27.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #openttd
23:09:15  <Zuu> glad I could help
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23:37:33  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23396 /trunk/src/script/api/squirrel_export.awk: -Fix: squirrel export script did not ignore Doxygen blocks, causing funny results in some corner cases
23:37:34  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23397 /trunk/ (8 files in 4 dirs): -Change: remove the AI_ prefix from all AIEvent enums
23:37:42  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23398 /trunk/src/company_cmd.cpp: -Fix: the AIEvent.ET_COMPANY_NEW was only triggered if a company named itself, which seems like a very odd place to do so. Trigger it when the company is created instead
23:37:51  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23399 /trunk/src/ai/ai_scanner.cpp: -Fix (r23362): a randomizer should return a random value, not always the first
23:37:59  *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has quit [Quit: Poof]
23:41:17  <TrueBrain> and yes, 23399 is a noob error, and yes, you are allowed to laugh at me for it :)

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