Config
Log for #openttd on 3rd February 2012:
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02:33:49  <VIPStephan> hi there, anybody awake?
02:36:10  * VIPStephan yawns
02:36:26  <Rhamphoryncus> Unfortunately, but I'm about to fix that.  Good night ;)
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07:42:28  <Eddi|zuHause> <Rubidium> Alberth: in TTD it was 2**31 (you can have negative money as well) <-- but it would apply the currency multiplicator correctly, so it would be 2**31£, 2**32$ or 2**33DM
07:46:00  <Eddi|zuHause> (and then wrap around into negative if you get more profit)
07:46:23  <Eddi|zuHause> (i had that once, used the "build long tunnel" cheat to get back to positive money)
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08:26:32  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: sadly enough we lost that feature of correctly applying the currency multiplier when near/at the money limit
08:27:29  <Eddi|zuHause> need 128bit ints :p
08:27:51  * andythenorth needs more sleep
08:27:55  <andythenorth> why are you people up?
08:28:06  <andythenorth> you seem to go to bed later than me, and you're often here when I get up
08:28:09  <andythenorth> do you sleep?
08:28:11  <Eddi|zuHause> actually, we could fake this by applying the multiplicator on the string instead
08:28:24  <Eddi|zuHause> sleep is overrated
08:28:31  <Elukka> i don't believe eddi sleeps
08:29:59  <andythenorth> maybe his brain is in two halves
08:30:05  <andythenorth> one half sleeps, the other wakes
08:30:08  <andythenorth> then they switch
08:30:19  <andythenorth> or maybe they're asynchronous
08:32:09  <Eddi|zuHause> all i know is that the cat is electrostatically loaded...
08:37:09  <planetmaker> does it also sometimes chat for you? ;-)
08:37:30  * andythenorth has to work
08:37:41  <andythenorth> would someone finish my python tutorial while I'm away
08:37:42  <andythenorth> thanks :P
08:37:52  <Elukka> so he is possibly a dolphin
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08:38:36  * andythenorth from somewhere import someone
08:39:01  <andythenorth> stuff = []
08:39:09  <andythenorth> someone.do(stuff)
08:39:41  <Eddi|zuHause> from __future__ import finished_tutorial
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08:54:05  <Elukka> speaking of sleeping with half the brain, i'm reminded of a thing...
08:54:15  <Elukka> there's a surgical procedure that involves removing half the brain
08:54:21  <Elukka> sometimes there's a more or less full recovery
08:54:36  <Elukka> you can take off half the brain and it'll still work the same
08:56:55  <andythenorth> not quite the same
08:56:57  <andythenorth> work yes
08:57:34  <andythenorth> there are functions that aren't replicated in both hemispheres
08:57:45  <Elukka> well, it varies, but you'd think they'd be severely mentally disabled afterwards
08:58:04  <andythenorth> there's a large literature on how brain injury can have specific interesting effects
08:58:18  <andythenorth> search "phineas gage"
08:58:23  <andythenorth> or...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage
08:58:41  <Elukka> "One case, demonstrated by Smith & Sugar, 1975; A. Smith 1987, demonstrated that one patient with this procedure had completed college, attended graduate school and scored above average on intelligence tests. Studies have found no significant long-term effects on memory, personality, or humor after the procedure,[2] and minimal changes in cognitive function overall.[3]"
08:58:45  <Elukka> not everyone is as lucky, of course
09:00:15  * andythenorth from __somewhere__ import car_keys
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09:14:35  <dihedral> good morning
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09:49:14  <Eddi|zuHause> nmlc: An internal error has occurred:
09:49:16  <Eddi|zuHause> Error:      (IndexError) "string index out of range".
09:49:22  <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't sound right
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10:00:23  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... and devzone fails showing previews...
10:02:32  <Eddi|zuHause> sorry, this report is totally ill-formatted
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12:14:00  <Rhamphoryncus> Huh, that's why reverse scroll doesn't seem right: the mouse cursor doesn't go with it
12:14:26  <Rhamphoryncus> It sticks with your window
12:24:32  <peter1138> yup
12:24:33  <peter1138> guess what
12:24:37  <peter1138> i had a patch for that once
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12:33:10  <__ln__> http://kuvat.uusisuomi.fi/sites/default/files/imagecache/suurennettu/kuvat/kuva-1.JPG
12:35:50  <Rhamphoryncus> peter1138: didn't fly?  :/
12:36:44  <MNIM> heh. I guess the military vehicle had little damage at all?
12:41:47  <peter1138> yeah, it made scrolling hard when you had windows open
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13:21:50  <Rhamphoryncus> peter1138: oh, I'd just want it to be a visual thing.
13:23:05  <peter1138> hmm?
13:23:21  <peter1138> when the cursor moves, it'll move into a different window from the main viewport
13:23:24  <peter1138> then it stops scrolling
13:27:31  <Rhamphoryncus> I'd want it to show the cursor moving, but still treat it as where you started
13:27:40  <Rhamphoryncus> Until you release the button
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14:13:45  <cmircea> After playing around with the OpenTTD port in the Android Market, I doubt a port to these devices would be recommended with the current UI.
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14:14:09  <cmircea> It's kind of a pain to do anything.
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14:26:13  <Rhamphoryncus> cmircea: you must have decent resolution.  On mine it's impossible.
14:26:32  <cmircea> 1280x720 is quite decent frankly.
14:26:51  <cmircea> That's not the point. In a tablet the UI is large enough.
14:28:23  <cmircea> The issue is mostly with the mouse-designed UI. Kinda hard to hold down and select (not to mention the port doesn't implement that), scrolling would be impossible, navigating the menus is a pain, the device buttons don't do anything.
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14:28:41  <cmircea> There are not easy to fix issues.
14:29:46  <cmircea> Unless someone else is interested I'd have to scrap this idea for about a year, since I won't have much time for now.
14:31:09  <Rhamphoryncus> Mine's 320x240, heh
14:31:42  <Rhamphoryncus> cmircea: I'd like to redesign the entire UI but I'm not doing it any time soon.  I'm starting with scheduling ;)
14:31:43  <cmircea> That's murder.
14:31:53  <Rhamphoryncus> yes, yes it is
14:31:59  <Rhamphoryncus> but the phone was free
14:32:13  <cmircea> Yeah well my GNex wasn't exactly cheap :P
14:33:41  <Rhamphoryncus> comparing ours is painful to look at: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Vector_Video_Standards2.svg
14:34:29  <cmircea> Rhamphoryncus, 12 times more pixels.
14:34:56  <cmircea> That says it all.
14:36:09  <cmircea> I'd be more than happy to do an Android port. It wouldn't be that difficult, most of the libraries probably compile directly; maybe SDL but there's already a port. Android not working well with Visual Studio is an annoyance, but meh, Eclipse isn't that hard to use.
14:36:19  <cmircea> But I don't have much time to work on the UI.
14:36:20  <Rhamphoryncus> Yours is a tablet though?
14:36:27  <cmircea> No, it's a phone, 4.65"
14:36:40  <cmircea> Things are a wee bit small on OTTD, but bearable.
14:36:47  <cmircea> Still not playable.
14:43:36  <cmircea> I'm setting up a github repo
14:43:52  <cmircea> Though I likely won't do much.
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15:15:08  <Belugas> hello
15:16:37  <andythenorth> quak
15:16:40  <andythenorth> wrong animal :P
15:16:57  <andythenorth> Belugas: today is forest police station day, if Amazon deliver on time....
15:22:10  <Belugas> :D
15:22:13  <Belugas> addicted!
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15:23:52  <andythenorth> totally
15:33:21  <Belugas> i bet that since kiddo is born, you find even more reasons to complete your collection ^_^
15:35:12  <andythenorth> +1
15:36:33  <Belugas> mh... that's bad... my kid is not as interested in guitar as i am.  in fact, not at all...
15:36:41  <Belugas> so i cannot do the same trickery :(
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15:47:19  <peter1138> aw
15:47:41  <andythenorth> Belugas: maybe he likes cameras? :)
15:48:51  <Belugas> yeah he does.  but so does my wife.
15:49:01  <Belugas> which means...
15:49:29  <Belugas> that the little prince is already equipped :)
15:50:00  <Belugas> i told her once...  "i'll give him my 1000D, i'll buy a 7D instead"
15:50:14  <Belugas> she did not like the idea
15:50:34  <Belugas> "What is he going to do with it, plus you don't need that much of a camera"
15:50:41  <Belugas> no... BUT I WANT IT!
15:52:47  <Ammler> why is opentitle.dat installed to baseset?
15:53:28  <Ammler> or openttd.32.bmp
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15:55:08  <Rubidium> because we got rid of data, and they're definitely not a NewGRF
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16:01:39  <Ammler> hmm, also a little type, it should be baseset_s_
16:01:49  <Ammler> typo* :-)
16:03:16  <Rubidium> like it's langs, srcs, newgrfs, ais, ailibraries, contents_download?
16:07:10  <Ammler> or scripts
16:07:19  <Ammler> but indeed
16:08:21  <Ammler> heffer: has Fedora an alternative for Recommends I am not aware of?
16:08:45  <planetmaker> Belugas, http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/moon.png ;-)
16:08:54  <planetmaker> speaking of cameras :-P
16:09:09  <planetmaker> exposure time 1/1000s ;-)
16:10:52  <andythenorth> awesome
16:11:14  <Belugas> it's beautiful :D
16:11:17  <planetmaker> the camera was a bit non-standard... http://www.photron.com/index.php?cmd=product_general&product_id=6&product_name=FASTCAM+SA3&home=1
16:11:58  <planetmaker> and is was **** cold yesterday
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16:12:12  <Belugas> now i am disappointed. I tough it was youur new lens :(
16:12:13  <Belugas> joke...
16:12:32  <Belugas> i know you cold not shoot that close with your slr :)
16:12:38  <planetmaker> well... the "lens" had 8" diameter here :-P
16:14:02  <planetmaker> we tried to find out whether we can see a star fading out of view (time-resolved) when it becomes hidden by the moon
16:14:06  <planetmaker> I guess it might work
16:14:21  <Ammler> Rubidium: is this change somehow docuemnted for distro/packagers or we need to grep the source?
16:14:23  <planetmaker> which means... trip to Italy in April :-P
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16:15:51  <Belugas> cool :)
16:16:13  <cmircea> Does OTTD run with SDL 1.3?
16:16:42  * andythenorth searches for moon picture taken on 500mm mirror lens and 2 stacked 2x converters
16:16:42  <andythenorth> but can't find it
16:16:42  <andythenorth> was good for cheap equipment
16:16:51  <planetmaker> did you try, cmircea ?
16:17:06  <Belugas> planetmaker, the blurr around the right edges are due to the atmosphere?  must not come from the movement, not at that speed
16:17:07  <planetmaker> andythenorth, it's about the same focal length then. This is 2.3m
16:17:25  <cmircea> planetmaker, not really, no.
16:17:29  <andythenorth> the quality on mine was rather less :)
16:17:37  <planetmaker> Belugas, it's a bit image-treated... 10 images stacked and slightly sharpened
16:17:48  <cmircea> planetmaker, was hoping someone already did.
16:17:49  <planetmaker> I might have overdone it a bit
16:18:08  <Belugas> hha... ok
16:18:13  <planetmaker> and... it was quite cloudy already. That probably caused most of the blur
16:18:21  <Belugas> noted
16:18:29  <Belugas> i'd say the later rather than the former
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16:18:47  <Belugas> mmmh... mb, get out off my fingers!
16:18:55  <Ammler> ah, that diff is too big :-)
16:18:55  <planetmaker> hm?
16:19:12  <planetmaker> what do you mean, Belugas ?
16:21:16  <Belugas> mb has a tendancy to speak with "former, later" quite oftenly.  And I think i'm contaminated
16:21:52  <Ammler> we really should sometime also cleanup the mess with dedicated
16:21:52  <Belugas> never mind...  too much coffee on my system... plus, blame peter1138 for putting DeathMole on my ears!
16:22:03  <Belugas>  http://deathmole.bandcamp.com/releases
16:24:05  <planetmaker> :-P
16:24:16  <planetmaker> he must have read QC
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16:48:03  <Belugas> QC?
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16:51:09  <planetmaker> http://questionablecontent.net/http://questionablecontent.net/ <-- Belugas. Read the comment of the artist below the strip ;-)
16:51:24  <planetmaker> ups... http://questionablecontent.net/
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16:53:39  <Belugas> must have indeed :)
16:54:16  <Belugas> we're both fans of Deathmole (well... i believe he is) for some times now :)
16:54:40  <planetmaker> I haven't actually listened to it yet. But they offer samples... maybe later today :-)
16:57:03  <Belugas> whole songs.  warning... a bit heavy metal
16:57:36  <Belugas> i know somewhere, you can find some other songs, when deathmole was free music
16:57:40  <planetmaker> I can live with that ;-) Would fit with Blind Guardian etc ;-)
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17:10:48  <__ln__> meanwhile in finland: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVTUHkFO95M
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17:16:29  <planetmaker> looks cold ;-)
17:17:16  * andythenorth might drive home and write python tutorials
17:17:20  <andythenorth> and build lego police stations
17:17:23  <andythenorth> glamourous life
17:17:53  <Elukka> it's cold as hell right now
17:18:54  <planetmaker> yesterday was said to be the coldest day of this winter for here
17:19:00  <planetmaker> like -20 ... -5°C
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17:22:12  <Belugas> that looks like Quebec!
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17:22:21  <Belugas> what a cool video :)
17:22:36  <Belugas> i wonder... is the driver the one holding the camera?
17:22:45  <Belugas> if so... anoher reason to ban those devices
17:24:20  <planetmaker> it looks the person on the right does
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17:37:32  <Belugas> mmh... anyone know if mysql has generators available?
17:39:36  <Belugas> aaaahh.. never mind... the guy had the pk as autoincrement
17:41:03  <Belugas> and here it snows, once more
17:46:30  <Rubidium> Belugas: I doubt the consequences are as bad as they are here ;)
17:46:45  <Rubidium> (for traffic that is)
17:49:16  <Rubidium> although I was wondering why a train running two times an hour with a journey length of ~90 minutes can have a delay of 180 minutes
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17:55:36  <Belugas> indeed, not as bad.  we are quite used to the white stuff now :)
17:55:57  <Belugas> as for the trains, maybe they had a stuck car/truck/whatever n the rails?
17:58:25  <Rubidium> Belugas: rather jammed switches
17:59:01  <Rubidium> it would probably have been faster to walk the 7.5 km home today
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18:09:09  <planetmaker> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58361 <-- I give up
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18:54:14  <frosch123> Belugas: i would be happy if it would snow here; then it would not be as cold :)
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19:18:53  <Belugas> granted, frosch123 :)
19:19:14  <Alberth> hi Sir B
19:19:16  <Belugas> i've heard indeed that good old Europ is having a walk in the cold side
19:19:23  <Belugas> sir Alberth!
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19:34:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23877 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt lithuanian.txt):
19:34:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:34:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 52 changes by OliTTD
19:34:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 4 changes by Stabilitronas
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19:54:06  <Rhamphoryncus> ahoy andy
19:54:12  <andythenorth> yoha
19:55:56  <Rhamphoryncus> I'm having fun.  Comparing vehicle departure times and getting 371.  They're on full day increments.
19:55:57  *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO]
19:56:39  <Eddi|zuHause> 't was about time there was an actual winter here...
19:57:08  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6DBA2.versanet.de] has joined #openttd
19:57:56  <Rhamphoryncus> Vehicles are updated one at a time, so at any given point you'll have some that are 1 tick in to the future
19:58:41  <MNIM> Eddi|zuHause: agreed.
19:58:54  <MNIM> FINALLY I get to use that mountainbike for what I intended to use it for. :D
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20:17:50  <Wolf01> evenking
20:18:05  <Alberth> moin
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20:20:45  * andythenorth ponders writing more tutorial
20:20:59  <andythenorth> but as everyone knows, pondering isn't doing :P
20:22:05  <Alberth> but a bit of pondering before doing may cause big jumps forward :p
20:24:07  *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-90-104.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit []
20:27:41  <andythenorth> I need a test subject :P
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20:32:14  <Alberth> firs?
20:36:41  <andythenorth> I mean a person :)
20:40:19  <itp> A test subject for what?
20:40:37  *** itp is now known as FLHerne
20:42:08  <andythenorth> templating NML with python
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20:50:59  * andythenorth sets trivial challenge http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=994006#p994006
20:55:25  <Alberth> :D
20:56:53  <Alberth> did you make any WT3 document?
20:57:34  <Alberth> last weekend I was traveling, and wrote a bit of REST structure of a WT3 site
20:59:26  <Ammler> andythenorth: there is a python make replacement
21:00:30  <Alberth> only one?
21:06:46  <Ammler> "a" doesn't mean that, does it? :-)
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21:11:53  <andythenorth> Ammler: is it AAP per chance?
21:12:21  <Ammler> I have no clue, I already told anything about I know
21:12:33  <andythenorth> hmm
21:12:35  <Ammler> :-)
21:12:49  <andythenorth> I wonder if make is a solved problem
21:12:58  <andythenorth> planetmaker has it pretty well under control no?
21:13:10  <Ammler> why do you see make as "a problem"?
21:13:56  <andythenorth> it's a phrase ;)
21:14:06  <Ammler> one issue with it could be the lack of support on windows, but that might be for everything
21:14:07  <andythenorth> 'solved problem' = let's not worry about this, it works
21:15:19  <Ammler> only very experienced devs here are able to build devzone projects on windows
21:15:33  <Ammler> maybe 2
21:16:13  <Ammler> hmm, rather none, I guess everyone now runs linux vms for it :-)
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21:18:31  <andythenorth> oh
21:18:35  <andythenorth> I didn't realise it was so hard :o
21:21:15  <andythenorth> Ammler: for the build step, I think I could do a simple grf like BANDIT in pure python
21:21:18  <andythenorth> including docs
21:21:30  <andythenorth> but making different targets, including src bundles etc
21:21:31  <andythenorth> not
21:21:39  <andythenorth> and moving to install location: not
21:22:00  <Rubidium> andythenorth: why can't you?
21:22:01  <Ammler> well, the whole dependency stuff
21:22:12  <andythenorth> Rubidium: 'I' is the important part :P
21:22:40  <Rubidium> andythenorth: yes, you're the one! ;)
21:22:44  <andythenorth> no
21:22:46  <Rubidium> you can do it ;)
21:22:47  <andythenorth> I'm not a good tool maker
21:23:03  <andythenorth> and there are >3 years of knowledge in the current makefile, for which I am only a dumb user :P
21:23:32  <andythenorth> I think what I *can* do is write a python wsgi app that lets users 'configure' a grf in a web browser locally, then build it
21:23:43  <andythenorth> which might be an interesting approach
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21:28:06  <Ammler> what would a user configure?
21:28:59  <andythenorth> for a truck grf, they could configure values of: all vehicle attributes; names; number of trailers; 'upload' pngs
21:29:21  <andythenorth> for a bus newgrf similar
21:29:24  <andythenorth> trains, I'm not sure
21:29:32  <andythenorth> maybe it's the solution to the BROS car crash :P
21:29:46  <andythenorth> it would be akin to grf maker, in some ways
21:30:08  <andythenorth> no ability to add complex varaction 2 stuff etc
21:30:52  <andythenorth> industry newgrf: not possible, too complicated
21:36:30  <michi_cc> Ammler: Building devzone projects on windows is as easy as installing cygwin is.
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21:37:12  <andythenorth> Ammler: basically stuff you see here is all BANDIT configuration: http://www.tt-foundry.com/sets/BANDIT/list_all_trucks
21:37:51  <Ammler> michi_cc: then there is one, I guessed 2 :-)
21:38:28  <Ammler> I am able to install cygwin, but I am not able to build a devzone project
21:38:36  <michi_cc> Even works with gimp and everything.
21:39:15  <andythenorth> Ammler: I edit a truck with this form :) http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2372/BANDIT_build.png
21:39:31  <andythenorth> but...it's in Zope which is...umm...overkill :P
21:39:48  <Ammler> andythenorth: that looks like cets
21:39:57  <andythenorth> similar idea.  different backend
21:40:24  <andythenorth> basically object database versus row-based database
21:41:19  <andythenorth> I am hoping I can pickle objects directly from web form(s) to configure the grf, then read them directly out for building the grf
21:41:20  <Ammler> andythenorth: I am not sure, where you profit from object based database
21:41:29  <andythenorth> familiarity for me
21:41:30  <andythenorth> is all
21:41:49  <andythenorth> potato / potato in the end result
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21:49:07  <andythenorth> hmm
21:49:15  <andythenorth> buy menu text might be an interesting challenge
21:49:39  <andythenorth> I need to use either a custom string, or a shared string
21:49:49  <andythenorth> my database has no provision for that
21:52:51  <Terkhen> hello
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21:53:58  <andythenorth> 'lo Terkhen
21:58:44  * andythenorth explores
21:58:45  <andythenorth> http://www.scons.org/wiki/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
21:59:51  <andythenorth> http://code.google.com/p/waf/
22:00:40  <andythenorth> http://www.buildout.org/
22:01:53  *** kkb110__ [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:04:37  <andythenorth> http://paver.github.com/paver/
22:05:11  <andythenorth> hmm
22:05:15  <andythenorth> paver looks interesting
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22:15:05  <Terkhen> why is CPP "wrong"?
22:15:23  <Terkhen> besides being confusing and not really created for nml templating :)
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22:17:09  <andythenorth> Terkhen: it's good for includes and constant substitution
22:17:45  <andythenorth> what do you think of it as a solution?
22:21:45  <Terkhen> it already works and it does its job :P
22:22:12  <Terkhen> it's quite possible that a better solution exists, but it involves changes to both the existing makefile framework and templates already created
22:23:07  <andythenorth> the makefile change appears to be simple afaict
22:23:49  <andythenorth> I'm only looking at python alternatives because others seem to want one
22:24:02  <andythenorth> and I'm too tired to write code :P
22:24:04  <andythenorth> :)
22:24:23  <Rubidium> then code write ;)
22:24:31  <Rubidium> oh no, somebody aready coded write
22:24:37  <andythenorth> wode crite
22:24:39  <andythenorth> more likely
22:25:38  <andythenorth> I only started python templating because I didn't like writing out multiple duplicate CPP defines
22:25:44  <andythenorth> so I templated those :P
22:25:54  <andythenorth> then it....grewed
22:26:08  <andythenorth> now afaict there is no CPP in BANDIT
22:26:16  <Terkhen> if the makefile changes are simple then it's probably worth the effort to try a supposed better solution with a new project that requires templates, and then consider if adapting existing project to the new method is desirable
22:26:30  <andythenorth> Terkhen: checkout the BANDIT repo ;)
22:26:51  <andythenorth> I haven't advocated changing FIRS so far
22:26:53  <Terkhen> sorry, I have no dev environment here :)
22:28:26  <andythenorth> build script is here: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/bandit/repository/entry/src/build_bandit.py
22:28:36  <andythenorth> truck template here: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/bandit/repository/entry/sprites/nml/truck_template.tnml
22:29:24  <andythenorth> I think it can be improved - alberth might help me
22:30:20  <andythenorth> most of all it's fun to code with
22:30:44  <andythenorth> each vehicle is a first class python object, which means a lot of interesting things can be done very quickly
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22:38:28  * Terkhen has no idea of python
22:38:40  <andythenorth> just assume it's code :)
22:38:51  <andythenorth> if andythenorth can do it, it's not very hard code
22:38:59  <Terkhen> def get_total_consist_capacity(self): <-- I'm not used to understand that kind of code :P
22:39:19  <andythenorth> function
22:39:36  <andythenorth> dunno why self has to be set as param
22:39:53  <Rubidium> to tell it's an instance function instead of a static function?
22:40:24  <andythenorth> probably
22:40:25  <andythenorth> yes
22:40:39  * andythenorth guesses it needs it for namespace reasons.  let's see
22:40:40  <andythenorth> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/625083/python-init-and-self-what-do-they-do
22:40:57  <andythenorth> "... the self variable represents the instance of the object itself. Most object-oriented languages pass this as a hidden parameter to the methods defined on an object; Python does not. You have to declare it explicitly."
22:41:44  <Rubidium> so it's exactly what I said
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22:42:25  <andythenorth> yup
22:42:39  <andythenorth> it's a convention apparently
22:42:43  <andythenorth> could be any other string
22:42:57  <andythenorth> string / identifier /s
22:43:15  * andythenorth is learning more python this 7 days than in last 7 years of using it :P
22:43:27  <Rubidium> then I propose _ as identifier
22:43:43  <andythenorth> I think that would have interesting side effects?
22:44:59  <Rubidium> it's often used as "don't care" paramater in functional programming languages
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22:45:45  <Rubidium> and I ought to write paramater correctly next time
22:46:22  <andythenorth> it appears to work
22:46:31  <andythenorth> I didn't check if it works correctly though
22:49:58  <Rhamphoryncus> Python doesn't care about the name of self.  It just has to be the first argument
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22:50:58  <andythenorth> does it even have to be first?
22:50:58  <andythenorth> seems if I write def foo(_)
22:50:58  <andythenorth> or def foo(bar, _)
22:51:52  <valhallasw> conventions states it's 'self' for instance fns and 'cls' for static functions
22:51:53  <Rhamphoryncus> The main advantage of explicit self is it's obvious "self.x = 11" assigns an attribute, not a local.  To a much less degree this applies to reading out attributes too.  Of course that doesn't make it necessary to put in the argument list
22:52:18  * valhallasw hates reading C++/C#-code that doesn't use this->var
22:52:23  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: the latter would have bar as self
22:52:34  <andythenorth> as long as I use _.stuff in __initi__ then all seems to be well
22:52:34  <andythenorth> __init__ /s
22:52:49  * SmatZ shares valhallasw's opinion
22:53:15  <Rhamphoryncus> valhallasw: python has both static methods and class methods.  static methods aren't passed any instance (they're just ordinary functions, but with a wrapper to prevent method binding), while it's class methods that use cls
22:53:49  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: not possible.  Wanna put your example on a pastebin?
22:54:29  *** theholyduck [~holyduck@ip-163-158-106-77.eidsiva.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:54:37  <Rhamphoryncus> valhallasw: I think openttd is spoiling me ;)
22:55:23  <valhallasw> Rhamphoryncus: ah, you're right, I never knew that (I meant a class method, and called it 'static method' from a C#-perspective)
22:56:08  <Rhamphoryncus> That's why I chimed in.  A few other languages treat them as the same thing.  If you can access the class through lexical scoping then they are the same thing
22:56:28  <Rhamphoryncus> Which you CAN do in python, but class methods are passed the subclass, while the lexical scope would be the base class
22:57:55  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: I defer to you :)
22:58:15  <Rubidium> "class method" is a very confusing name, so please don't use it ;)
22:58:56  <Rubidium> in some languages it's the static method, in others it's the object/instance method
23:00:29  <Rhamphoryncus> I was going to respond, but I've gotten lost in my head trying to remember the specifics of how classes are created
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23:00:51  * andythenorth ponders actual...newgrf and stuff
23:00:56  <Rhamphoryncus> And the descriptor protocol and how it's used for normal methods and class methods
23:01:02  <andythenorth> BANDIT trucks have 0-3 trailers
23:01:16  <andythenorth> I need some buy menu text about that
23:01:35  <andythenorth> some trucks have no trailers (so they can route to drive-in stops)
23:01:37  <Rhamphoryncus> (If anybody wants to learn metaclasses.  I'll shoot you in the leg and we'll both go home better off.)
23:01:47  <Rhamphoryncus> err, if you want to learn metaclasses *come to me*
23:01:56  * valhallasw runs away
23:02:07  <valhallasw> my proxy class is creepy enough
23:02:16  <valhallasw> __getattribute__ hell
23:02:25  <andythenorth> trucks with trailers are refittable to different numbers of trailers
23:02:35  <andythenorth> so how much info is needed about this in buy menu?
23:03:10  <valhallasw> Rhamphoryncus: object.__getattribute__(ProxyBase, '__getattribute__')(self, method)(*args, **kwargs) < beat that.
23:03:18  <andythenorth> HEQS trams (similar) state things like "refittable to: 80t in four wagons, 180t in nine wagons, 300t in 15 wagons"
23:03:55  <Rhamphoryncus> valhallasw: I forked CPython to totally redesign how threading worked.  Consider yourself schooled.
23:04:18  <valhallasw> *grin*
23:04:55  <andythenorth> maybe that's repeatable
23:05:04  <andythenorth> gah
23:05:13  <andythenorth> I have to actually put buy menu strings in the lang file
23:05:18  <andythenorth> I can't just compose them directly :P
23:05:41  <andythenorth> same amount of code, different plan needed :P
23:06:21  <Rhamphoryncus> In 20 years openttd's internationalization code will become self-aware.
23:07:23  <andythenorth> I would settle for someone else doing the i18n on this project
23:07:55  <andythenorth> assuming that anyone wants to translate it at all
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23:11:14  <andythenorth> oh how interestink
23:11:37  * andythenorth ponders a way to concatenate strings in NML without doing it properly with text stack
23:11:46  <andythenorth> string(foo_string + bar_string) fails :)
23:11:53  <andythenorth> for reasons I can guess
23:14:13  <andythenorth> hmm
23:14:24  <andythenorth> solve it in python, write an excessive number of strings :P
23:14:45  <andythenorth> might be bad for future translations :(
23:16:40  <Rubidium> andythenorth: just write a wrapper that generates the right code for the operator ;)
23:18:12  <Terkhen> andythenorth: if your templating work becomes complex enough, it might be better to direct said work to implement templating in nml itself
23:18:32  <Terkhen> that would be the best solution :9
23:18:33  <Terkhen> :)
23:18:54  <Rubidium> only the third iteration ;)
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23:19:10  <andythenorth> that's probably horribly plausible :P
23:19:10  <andythenorth> I discussed that a bit with Yexo.  It's not really desirable
23:19:16  <Rubidium> then you got most (pre)conditions clear
23:20:12  <andythenorth> using external python templating is pretty trivial anyway
23:21:15  <andythenorth> I can imagine a syntax for it in NML, but it might add unwanted complexity
23:21:15  <andythenorth> NML is pretty nice as it stands
23:21:31  <Terkhen> then code a "precompiler" for nml :)
23:23:09  <andythenorth> that is more plausible
23:23:09  <andythenorth> BANDIT is pretty much a generic truck compiler already
23:23:09  <andythenorth> assuming you agree with my design choices for trucks :P
23:23:09  <andythenorth> generic / specific /s
23:23:09  <andythenorth> we can have competing precompilers ;P
23:23:35  <andythenorth> I think that a truly generic precompiler would have so much scaffolding and so many options that it would be hard to use
23:23:54  <andythenorth> whereas writing a custom one per set is the work of half a day
23:24:33  * andythenorth has lived through the web form generator wars
23:24:38  <Terkhen> I would like a generic one that allows the equivalent of "includes", "macros" and "defines"
23:24:50  <Terkhen> without all the CPP hassle
23:24:57  <andythenorth> I have that
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23:25:07  <andythenorth> it's just traded CPP hassle for python hassle ;P
23:25:34  <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/bandit/repository/entry/sprites/nml/truck_template.tnml
23:25:38  <Terkhen> since I understand CPP and not python, I don't see the point :)
23:25:48  <andythenorth> well...
23:25:54  <andythenorth> indeed ;)
23:26:02  <andythenorth> although you weren't born knowing CPP
23:26:09  <andythenorth> unless you are very unique
23:26:13  <Terkhen> yeah, but I already did the effort of learning it :P
23:26:33  <Terkhen> that code looks more readable, though
23:26:55  <andythenorth> it's just more fun to have a templating language that has object(s) in scope
23:27:03  <andythenorth> so you can call methods on them for example
23:27:07  <andythenorth> and to have iterators
23:27:30  <andythenorth> and to be able to CONCATENATE A FRICKING STRING WITHOUT FIVE LINES OF(CODE)
23:27:32  <andythenorth> :)
23:28:08  <andythenorth> and also it's nice not to have groundhog day every time you ask a question, e.g.
23:28:09  <Terkhen> string1 ## string2 IIRC
23:28:16  * andythenorth "I have a CPP question"
23:28:25  <andythenorth> someone: "you're using the wrong tool"
23:28:30  <andythenorth> repeat ad infinitum :P
23:28:49  <andythenorth> got tiresome
23:29:17  <andythenorth> Terkhen: try concatenating two variadic macros
23:29:22  <andythenorth> I have the solution somewhere
23:29:23  <Terkhen> if there is not a right tool, how can you have a wrong one?
23:29:38  * Terkhen never needed to do such complicated stuff
23:30:45  <andythenorth> identifiers for articulated vehicle parts
23:30:59  <andythenorth> means composing two variadic macros together
23:31:04  <andythenorth> or finding alternatives
23:31:08  <andythenorth> I achieved both :)
23:31:24  <Terkhen> oh, right, articulated vehicles
23:31:28  <Terkhen> those are quite confusing
23:32:02  <andythenorth> eventually I had nice solutions using simple CPP, CPP variadic macros, CPP written out by python, then all python
23:32:07  <andythenorth> all were fine
23:33:53  <andythenorth> also I needed to do stuff like buy_menu_capacity = sum(truck, trailer_1, trailer_2) etc
23:34:04  <andythenorth> easy in python
23:34:15  <andythenorth> CPP....maybe
23:34:53  <andythenorth> Terkhen: also, how is your job?
23:35:15  <Terkhen> fine, still learning what we are supposed to do
23:35:27  <Terkhen> but this part is interesting :)
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23:36:54  <Terkhen> IIRC nml can handle the + operator in most places
23:37:32  <andythenorth> indeed
23:37:41  <andythenorth> which is good :)
23:38:02  <andythenorth> but the consist variables are mostly not available in purchase menu
23:38:29  <andythenorth> and nml can't expose item properties in any way to expressions except via newgrf vars
23:38:47  <Terkhen> hmm... my nml is quite rusty, but I remember using variables
23:38:57  <andythenorth> if it could do something like ${item.capacity} when compiling...then it would be interesting
23:39:13  <andythenorth> and if it could have arbitrary properties on an item...
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23:39:30  <Terkhen> OO nml? :P
23:40:25  <andythenorth> that's what I've approximated :)
23:40:42  <Terkhen> that would be nice
23:40:43  <andythenorth> it's only one parsing step away from possibility
23:40:51  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause could probably figure it out
23:40:59  <Terkhen> allowing to access properties of already defined items
23:41:14  <andythenorth> item properties is equivalent to dict syntax anyway
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23:42:12  <Terkhen> why?
23:42:42  <andythenorth> why is it?
23:43:29  <andythenorth> it's same syntax as python dict, except for using ';' as delimiter instead of ','
23:43:52  <andythenorth> parsing it would probably be trivial
23:46:24  * andythenorth needs to sleep
23:46:28  <andythenorth> good night
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23:49:05  <Terkhen> yeah, sleeping sounds good
23:49:07  <Terkhen> good night
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23:56:04  <Rhamphoryncus> Hmm, I do believe I need to implement a sort on the shared vehicle list when it gets loaded.  Let's see how bad of an algorithm I can choose :D
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