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Log for #openttd on 3rd March 2012:
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03:47:11  <DanMacK> Hey all
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03:59:19  <supermop> hi
03:59:30  <supermop> not usually many around this late
04:02:05  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean this early
04:11:37  <supermop> i thought DanMacK was in canada?
04:11:47  <DanMacK> He is
04:12:00  * DanMacK works till 9
04:12:21  <supermop> hmm western canada then?
04:12:32  <DanMacK> eastern
04:12:38  <DanMacK> 11:15 here
04:12:42  <supermop> ah
04:13:10  * DanMacK is home, just had a bite to eat, and now is trying to get the ambition to take the dogs out and go to be
04:13:13  <DanMacK> *bed
04:13:28  <supermop> ah, what kind of dogs?
04:14:37  <DanMacK> a beagle/terrier mix and a Chihuaua, Yorkie mix
04:14:42  <DanMacK> wow, I am tires
04:14:46  <DanMacK> *d
04:14:48  <DanMacK> lol
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04:20:37  <supermop> nice!
04:20:49  <supermop> or border terrier has hit a rough spot
04:20:56  <supermop> *our
04:21:38  <DanMacK> :(  that sucks
04:23:24  <supermop> yeah
04:23:30  <supermop> he is 14 though...
04:24:15  <supermop> unfortunately I caan't get to see him anytime soon
04:25:08  <DanMacK> :(  Why not?
04:25:41  <supermop> he's back in ohio with my parents
04:26:42  <DanMacK> ahhh
04:28:48  <supermop> we've had him since i was in middle school, but i've been out here in new york for 4 years now
04:29:15  <supermop> and, in st louis for school for 4 years before that
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04:34:05  <DanMacK> yeah, bit of a haul
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04:42:24  <DanMacK> How goes the expanded stations and such?  Not much news as of late
04:42:44  <supermop> oh
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04:42:54  <supermop> i was drawing a bit last week
04:43:02  <DanMacK> cool
04:43:06  <supermop> but i don't do enough lately
04:44:07  <DanMacK> It's a mood thing
04:44:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> with "this early" i meant "5 AM"
04:44:50  <Eddi|zuHause2> which is by far the majority of the peopla around here
04:45:47  <Arafangion> Eddi|zuHause2: 4PM here.
04:47:38  <Eddi|zuHause2> different issue: anybody seen my mouse=
04:47:56  <Eddi|zuHause2> i dropped it on the stairs earlier, and now it disapperard
04:49:08  <DanMacK> Night all
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06:35:58  <[OpenTTD]Johannes> Moin, anyone awake? :)
06:36:39  <[OpenTTD]Johannes> I just downloaded RC1 of the new openttd release...
06:37:00  <[OpenTTD]Johannes> Unfortunatelly, for the standard graphic set, there seem to be no extra zoom textures yet?
06:37:09  <[OpenTTD]Johannes> Or do I have to activate them first?
06:46:43  <Rubidium> if standard means original (transport tycoon) graphics, then it'll never have them
06:46:57  <Rubidium> if standard means opengfx, then it doesn't have them (yet)
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07:00:10  <[OpenTTD]Johannes> I meant opengfx
07:00:32  <[OpenTTD]Johannes> okay, not a single texture that was remade?
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07:26:46  <andythenorth> morginn
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07:46:36  <xiong> The window for the FIRS Lumber Yard says, 2t per 8t of chemicals, 6t per 8t of wood; 8t/8t for both. But this seems not to be true in 0.7.0M. I know it *used* to be true.
07:46:55  <xiong> Now, it seems that chemicals alone result in no production at all.
07:48:00  <xiong> That actually makes sense; you do not get any pressure-treated lumber out of a process that has no raw lumber going in. But behavior is not as advertised.
07:48:01  <Terkhen> good morning
07:48:13  <xiong> Good morning, Terkhen.
07:48:26  <Terkhen> xiong: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/issues
07:50:25  <xiong> I'm not sure how that applies.
07:54:29  <xiong> Sorry; I don't see anything there, relevant. Am I wrong? I'm pretty sure I got no ES output at all with only Chem input.
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07:59:40  <Terkhen> it applies because bug reports that are not reported to the tracker are usually forgotten :)
08:04:29  <xiong> Um, I don't think it's a bug. This is better than it was.
08:05:20  <xiong> If you think it's a bug, of course, you can so say. I'm not arguing about it. I thought you had some info for me.
08:05:44  <xiong> You do know I just play this game? I'm not any kind of developer of it.
08:06:35  <Terkhen> bug trackers are meant for users, to let them report anything they find strange
08:06:40  <Terkhen> but... your call :)
08:10:43  <xiong> Really? I don't even see any sort of reporting interface there. Just looks like a list of issues.
08:12:01  <xiong> I see a big 'Donate' button.
08:13:16  <xiong> I'm not a complete idiot; I use RT for my CPAN projects. I don't see anything here to allow me to open a new ticket.
08:13:28  <planetmaker> and next to 'Issues' you see 'New Issue'
08:13:56  <planetmaker> of course you might need to register first
08:15:41  <planetmaker> indeed 'New Issue' only is available when logged in
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08:16:14  <xiong> Well, I'm neither a FIRS developer nor a coop member. So naturally I can't log in.
08:17:00  <andythenorth> if it's a FIRS bug, it's acceptable to report it in the forum thread
08:17:14  <andythenorth> it will be likely checked, verified, and ticketed if valid
08:17:15  <xiong> Developers may not have any interest in public opinion and that's fine. I'm sharing my experiences as a player here with other players.
08:17:19  <andythenorth> unless we forget :)
08:17:39  <andythenorth> xiong: I have interest in public opinion, except when I don't ;)
08:19:57  <xiong> Yes well, that's normal, except when it's not.
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08:24:42  <Terkhen> xiong: if you just plan to discuss the issues you find with a random audience, what you were already doing is fine, if you want to get them fixed, write a bug report so they don't get forgotten
08:24:44  <planetmaker> xiong: naturally everyone interested in reporting bugs or issues can register there...
08:25:34  <Terkhen> developers might be interested in your discussion, or they might be busy with RL stuff when you are discussing it here, or just not willing to check issues based on some vague sentences in a irc channel with no reliable way to contact the user
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08:26:01  <Terkhen> as I said, your call... we already had this discussion months ago and I don't want to redo it, I merely wanted to point you to FIRS bug tracker
08:26:06  <Terkhen> to use it or not is your decision
08:26:17  <Terkhen> bbl
08:26:26  <xiong> I'm not here to start a fight. My differences with the developer community are well known; I'm not here to stir the pot.
08:26:59  <xiong> Some people do actually play the game, though; and yes, we like to exchange ideas.
08:29:20  <andythenorth> what was the issue anyway? :P
08:29:52  * andythenorth reads log
08:29:57  <andythenorth> xiong: it's a bug
08:30:02  <xiong> andythenorth, I wouldn't even call it an issue; I think it's an improvement.
08:30:08  <andythenorth> well it's a bug
08:30:48  <andythenorth> if verifiable
08:30:53  <andythenorth> the code will know
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08:31:42  <xiong> Dunno. I suspect that this kind of complexity is resistant to static analysis. We may actually have to play the game in order to be certain what it does.
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08:35:11  <andythenorth> xiong: you could have just posted it in the forums (either FIRS thread is fine), thus avoiding these meta discussions, which may be painful for some (maybe you?)
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08:35:39  <andythenorth> and yes, only testing by playing verifies the behaviour
08:35:59  <andythenorth> but many of the bugs can be verified simply by reading the code and finding that it contains 1 or more mistakes
08:36:36  <xiong> Sorry, I didn't mean to veer into testing philosophy.
08:36:56  * andythenorth shrug
08:36:59  <andythenorth> it's on topic imo
08:37:19  <xiong> Not the way I talk about it. I'm a fanatic.
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08:38:41  <bolli> hi all...
08:39:04  <bolli> i have another (basic) question...
08:39:06  <xiong> There's this intern who's trying to learn Perl. Nobody on his team knows Perl, or at any rate, not well; or at least, not so they're able to communicate to him. They just shove him a ton of work and leave... which is normal for an intern.
08:39:33  <bolli> i've now compiled openttd, now i just have an issue with languages
08:39:53  <bolli> how do i set a language pack for it to compile with?
08:40:15  <Terkhen> bolli: languages should be compiled along with OpenTTD
08:40:30  <Terkhen> what are you using for compiling?
08:40:40  <xiong> But I tried for a long time to help him with some basic concepts, especially testing concepts. He is floundering, writing all sorts of hugely complex and advanced scripts, with no testing at all. And I say he's wasting his time since he will never know if any of his stuff works. He feels I'm too harsh, which is not my intent.
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08:42:48  <bolli> ok, how do i compile it with openttd?
08:43:13  <Terkhen> bolli: I need to know the answer to my question to answer that
08:43:13  <bolli> i'm using windows Visual C++ 2008
08:43:14  <Rubidium> Terkhen: I'd guess it's Microsoft's compiler environment
08:43:22  <Terkhen> yes, my guess too :)
08:43:41  <Terkhen> good morning Rubidium
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08:44:29  <bolli> the wiki is quite sketchy...
08:44:32  <Rubidium> gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooood morning Terkhen ;)
08:44:47  <Terkhen> bolli: you need to compile the complete project, which is composed of (IIRC) 4 solutions
08:44:53  <Terkhen> one of them is the game, another one the languages
08:45:10  <andythenorth> perl is testable?:o
08:45:17  * andythenorth is shocked
08:45:25  * andythenorth is also trolling :)
08:45:32  <Terkhen> I don't remember which one is the one that you should be compiling, but I'm sure someone here will :)
08:45:39  <Rubidium> is it still the case that openttd.exe isn't copied to the bin directory, and thus if you try to run it from the objs directory it fails to find the translations?
08:45:55  <Terkhen> oh, yeah, I forgot that
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08:45:59  <Rubidium> s/translations/language packs/
08:46:11  <Terkhen> I don't know if it has been fixed, lately I have been using only mingw
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08:46:22  <bolli> its not copied it to the bin...
08:46:42  <Terkhen> if it is still an issue, you need to follow the "bundle" part of the wiki tutorial or to copy your openttd.exe to the bin folder yourself
08:46:46  <andythenorth> "g" + ['o' for in range(lots)] + "d morning Rubidium"
08:47:11  <bolli> ok :)
08:47:39  <bolli> thanks, thats now working :)
08:47:47  <Terkhen> great :)
08:48:20  <Rubidium> andythenorth: I was kinda thinking about pronouncing it like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytky9Rq9yf0 ;)
08:48:44  <andythenorth> figures
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08:49:49  <andythenorth> xiong: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3772
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08:51:08  <andythenorth> hmm
08:51:30  <andythenorth> input_image_path = 'input/test_input.png' <- probably gonna fail on windows pythons?
08:51:39  <andythenorth> I have to use os path tools
08:51:40  <andythenorth> ?
08:53:17  <Terkhen> that should work with msys/cygwin
08:53:17  <andythenorth> that is now a rhetorical question :P
08:53:31  <andythenorth> input_image_path = os.path.join(currentdir, 'input', 'test_input.png')
08:53:45  <andythenorth> occasionally python seems clunky
08:53:54  <andythenorth> this is a case in point
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08:58:30  <xiong> Well, that's great, andythenorth. I appreciate that you label it a possible bug. As I say, I think it's more correct this way. Of course, a number of industries should not produce anything under certain combinations of delivery. I just haven't seen the concept yet of basic and booster input cargoes.
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08:59:04  <andythenorth> 'always produce something' makes for better gameplay imo
08:59:12  <xiong> A lime kiln, for example, can produce with an input of wood alone but not with stone alone.
08:59:20  <andythenorth> other sets are available if you wish to try the alternative method
08:59:31  <andythenorth> you may enjoy PBI
08:59:41  <xiong> I will always be swayed by arguments of realism.
09:00:29  <xiong> PBI? I saw some industry set when I was browsing around; it had gas works. Don't think it was PBI. Anyway, it will be hard to part me from FIRS; it's hard enough to learn.
09:00:42  <andythenorth> hmm
09:00:49  <andythenorth> Mangler is an 'official' pattern
09:00:53  <andythenorth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mangler_pattern
09:00:59  * andythenorth learns something
09:01:19  <andythenorth> I was going to write a path mangler for output file names
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09:01:22  <andythenorth> but that's not a mangler
09:01:41  <andythenorth> however my render engine *is* a mangler according to the definition above
09:02:27  <xiong> "Software design pattern" articles on WP are hopelessly pervaded by the evil influence of a very small cabal of CS wonks.
09:03:00  <xiong> They don't care if anything ever ships so long as they can abstract the method.
09:03:09  <andythenorth> ho :)
09:03:34  <andythenorth> +1, although I have no evidence, your argument smells correct
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09:05:44  <andythenorth> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikipediaIsNotWiki < /me likes
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09:23:58  <andythenorth> hmm
09:25:44  <bolli> right... now i'm having difficulties with TortoiseSVN :/
09:26:03  <bolli> every file its modifying when i apply a patch is coming back as rejected
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09:32:27  <peter1138> then you don't have the correct version checked out
09:33:38  <bolli> how do i do that then?
09:33:46  <Terkhen> either that or you are trying to apply a git/hg patch, to my knowledge tortoisesvn can't apply those patches
09:33:48  <bolli> its all newe to me....
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09:34:12  <bolli> *new
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09:34:52  <Terkhen> most patches indicate the revision you need in the forum thread or in the file name (this_is_a_patch_r24000.diff or something like that)
09:35:20  <bolli> ah yes
09:35:25  <bolli> its a GIT patch
09:35:27  <bolli> thanks
09:35:34  <Terkhen> you need to clean your repository (it might have some hunks applied and other that are not applied) update your openttd source to that revision, apply again and then compile
09:35:45  <Terkhen> if it is a GIT patch then you probably can't apply it with TortoiseSVN
09:36:24  <bolli> yep, i'm downloading GIT now :P
09:36:32  <Terkhen> out of curiosity, what are you trying to compile?
09:37:00  <bolli> Infra sharing
09:37:15  <bolli> and i've also tried YACD
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09:38:11  <Terkhen> if you want to avoid the headaches of patching you might want to check chill's patch pack, it includes infrastructure sharing
09:38:47  <Terkhen> there might be another infrastructure sharing builds already posted at the development forums
09:43:47  <bolli> ok
09:43:49  <bolli> thanks :)
09:46:39  <Terkhen> you are welcome
09:51:05  <andythenorth> simuscape
09:51:07  <andythenorth> such a tease :P
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10:09:08  <Wolf01> hello
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10:15:17  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
10:21:09  <spongie> My newly created grf doesnt show up in the game settings, is there a way to make openttd complain loudly about why its being ignored?
10:21:59  <Terkhen> spongie: http://wiki.openttd.org/Debugging
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10:24:22  <spongie> ah there i see it
10:26:49  <planetmaker> spongie: old OpenTTD version with new NewGRF format?
10:27:37  <planetmaker> if you use all new NewGRF features or NML (except NML 0.2.x) you need OpenTTD 1.2.0-RC1 or newer
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10:29:33  <spongie> hm
10:29:45  <spongie> im on 1.2.0-beta4
10:30:01  <spongie> btw, the manual says to put my GRF's in ~/.openttd/data, is that still the case?
10:30:58  <peter1138> no
10:31:08  <spongie> im guessing into newgrf ?
10:31:09  <peter1138> which manual? :)
10:31:14  <peter1138> .openttd/newgrf, yes
10:31:30  <spongie> http://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_Documentation
10:31:36  <peter1138> right oh
10:31:52  <peter1138> no doubt not properly updated because it's not released yet
10:32:05  <peter1138> btw, why not RC1?
10:32:15  <spongie> ok got rc1 now
10:32:22  <spongie> dont upgrade too often
10:32:30  <peter1138> :-)
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10:33:41  <spongie> there it works
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10:46:35  <planetmaker> never debug NewGRFs on old OpenTTD ;-)
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10:58:32  <bolli_> hmm
10:58:47  <bolli_> i've downloaded chillipatch
10:58:59  <bolli_> made sure its the svn.diff patch
10:59:17  <bolli_> and it still brings up a few hundred windows with errors in...
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11:03:15  <Terkhen> bolli: I mentioned those builds because they are already compiled
11:03:53  <Terkhen> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=47622 <--- you can find a compiled binary for your OS here
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11:04:59  <bolli> yes, but i want to try to compile it myself :P
11:05:19  <bolli> i want to try and get it working, so i know what to do if i want to do it again
11:10:28  <andythenorth> :)
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11:10:42  <bolli> aha...
11:10:45  * bolli finds the problem
11:10:58  <bolli> its a possible bug in the latest version of SVN...
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11:19:58  <Terkhen> sorry, I was AFK
11:20:03  <Terkhen> bolli: a compilation bug?
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11:20:32  <Terkhen> bolli_: do you mean a compilation bug?
11:20:42  <bolli_> or a code bug....
11:20:51  <bolli_> i've just downloaded the binary...
11:20:55  <bolli_> its a lot easier
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11:22:22  <Terkhen> if you get errors while patching or compiling, it is probably something wrong locally, it might be that your svn repository is not clean from your earlier patching attempts, or maybe you did not update it to the revision required by the patch
11:24:26  <Ammler> bolli_: patches mostly work just for a certain svn revision
11:25:12  <bolli_> I don't know...
11:25:22  <bolli_> i've got it working with the binary now though...
11:26:16  <Terkhen> ok :)
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11:33:26  <planetmaker> bolli_: 'bug in the svn version' doesn't apply when using custom patches ;-)
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11:53:30  <spongie> In my nml I set "power: 324 kW", yet it shows up as 400 in the purchase menu. The example files say "changed by callback", how can I prevent this?
11:54:10  <andythenorth> spongie: paste your code http://paste.openttdcoop.org/
11:54:26  <andythenorth> (all the code for this vehicle)
11:55:08  <spongie> andythenorth: http://pastebin.ca/2123769
11:55:59  <andythenorth> hmm
11:56:03  <spongie> oh wait
11:56:04  <spongie> haha
11:56:05  <andythenorth> there's no cb defined to change power there
11:56:06  <spongie> kw vs hp
11:56:11  <andythenorth> yup
11:56:21  <andythenorth> knowing someone else is looking often helps you find a bug :P
11:56:30  <spongie> it does!
11:56:42  <spongie> im quit pleased with the way the graphics look
11:57:56  <spongie> my first C1 from 1949 is complete, bwahaha!
11:58:43  <andythenorth> how many trains are you planning to code btw?
12:03:04  <spongie> looks like theres only going to be 3
12:03:16  <spongie> models C1 to C9 where basically all the same
12:03:29  <spongie> then C10 to C15 is almost exactly the same, fewer passengres but more power
12:03:34  <spongie> or something like that
12:03:37  <spongie> and then there's the new C20
12:04:07  <andythenorth> k
12:04:15  <andythenorth> you don't need any templating or anything then
12:04:23  <andythenorth> straightforward nml should work well for you
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12:17:48  <spongie> are there any track sets for electric trains that get power from ground railing?
12:20:03  <spongie> i saw something about a 3rd rail but im not sure if its related
12:23:42  <Illegal_Alien> Ahooga
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12:30:09  <andythenorth> spongie: 3rd rail is ground rail with return via the main rails
12:30:18  <andythenorth> metros often use 2 power rails though
12:35:40  <spongie> andythenorth: i dont think this one does.
12:35:57  <spongie> but anyway, i want the sparks by the wheels and not by the roof, but i dont see such an offset option for the visual effect
12:36:15  <spongie> also, while electric, it doesnt need the wires
12:36:23  <spongie> so i thought maybe someone made a metro-like track set
12:37:42  <Elukka> there is
12:37:55  <Elukka> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=49476
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12:41:58  <LordAro> mornings
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12:47:04  <frosch123> i wondered why it was so silent... then i noticed that i had not opened irc yet :p
12:48:44  <Illegal_Alien> HELOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
12:49:06  <LordAro> silly quak :P
12:49:13  <Terkhen> hi frosch123
12:49:19  <frosch123> moin :)
12:50:22  <spongie> yay, pretty wagons
12:50:46  <Illegal_Alien> Wagons where?
12:52:05  <spongie> Elukka: looks like it replaces monorail
12:52:28  <Elukka> iirc there's an option to replace monorail, maglev or add a new type
12:52:32  <Elukka> in parameters
12:55:36  <Illegal_Alien> Grr i hate coding
12:56:45  <Terkhen> do something else :P
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12:56:59  <Illegal_Alien> Yeah creating sprites wich i need to code :P
12:57:07  <Terkhen> :)
12:57:22  <Illegal_Alien> But still i need to code then :P
12:58:36  <Illegal_Alien> Sprites are not the problem: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=156679 :)
13:01:11  <andythenorth> Illegal_Alien: which set?
13:01:19  <andythenorth> can't you just use the generator? :P
13:01:39  <andythenorth> no coding needed
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13:02:47  <Illegal_Alien> Generator ?
13:04:47  <spongie> im trying to have one sprite set for front and one for rear using a switch on the position_in_consist variable. however, I want to switch on the first and last car. Last is easy, 0, but how do I write the case for last car?
13:06:10  <Yexo> use position_in_consist_from_end?
13:06:53  *** bolli_ [~bolli@0.38.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:07:02  <spongie> Yexo: just add it to the expression part of the switch?
13:07:10  <Yexo> no
13:07:30  <spongie> how should i use it in my switch then?
13:08:01  <Yexo> something like: switch(..., other_switch, position_in_consist_from_end) { 0: end_sprite; default_sprite; } switch(..., position_+in_consist) { 0: front_sprite; other_switch; }
13:08:08  <Yexo> ie use two switches and link them together
13:09:46  <Yexo> or switch (..., (position_in_consist == 0) + 2 * (position_in_consist_from_end == 0)) { 1: front_sprite; 2: end_sprite, 3: both_front_and_end_sprite; default_sprite; }
13:10:03  <Yexo> you could leave case 3 out if you want to use the normal sprite for that one
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13:16:52  <spongie> Yexo: hm.
13:19:21  <Zuu> frosch123: You have a sound signal for every message that you get?
13:19:33  <spongie> How are they linked together, i dont see a use of other_switch in the second switch
13:23:24  *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
13:39:53  <andythenorth> spongie: I'll paste something....
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13:43:23  <frosch123> Zuu: no, only visual
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13:44:14  <andythenorth> spongie: second switch here chains to the first one if the result is not in the specified ranges
13:44:16  <andythenorth> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1172/
13:44:26  <andythenorth> the last entry is basically 'default'
13:44:36  <andythenorth> and can be a return value, or link to another switch
13:45:41  <frosch123> it's always entertaining when parents argue with their small children at the cash desk in supermarkets... but if they are switching between three languages while doing, it becomes quite weird
13:45:50  <MNIM> 0-o
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13:46:12  <MNIM> where's that, frosch123?
13:46:15  * andythenorth might teach his kids a funny language
13:46:25  <MNIM> try afrikaans
13:46:38  <frosch123> MNIM: where? in my local supermarket
13:46:38  <MNIM> at least to us dutch it sounds amusing.
13:46:38  <Arafangion> Try a sign language.
13:46:53  <MNIM> well yeah, got that, frosch, but what country, what languages?
13:46:54  <andythenorth> most of the people I work with now seem to speak interwebs
13:47:12  <andythenorth> it's mostly a dialect of internationalised english I think
13:47:17  <frosch123> well, it was not like they used the languages in one sentence. it was more like every time they restarted argueing they tried a different language
13:47:18  <Arafangion> andythenorth: lol wat?
13:47:24  <andythenorth> Arafangion: wtf?
13:47:38  <Arafangion> andythenorth: I see we have an understanding of what 'interwebs' is. :)
13:47:57  <frosch123> MNIM: germany; german, english, some language i did not understand (probably some african thingie)
13:48:08  <MNIM> ah
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13:51:03  <Zuu> Arafangion: Do you sign?
13:51:24  <Arafangion> Zuu: Yes, specifically, in Auslan.
13:51:25  <Zuu> Last time I was in stockholm there was two girls at the subway that was discussing what signs they knew.
13:52:40  <spongie> andythenorth: "extra_callback_info" is just any value passed on from the first switch?
13:52:43  <Arafangion> Zuu: That'd be a very long list for me. ;)
13:52:55  <Zuu> I kind of get along in the Swedish one.
13:53:09  <Zuu> Do you use the ASL alphabet or your own one?
13:53:23  <Arafangion> Zuu: Ours is derived from the two-handed british alphabet.
13:53:30  <Arafangion> The same alphabet, in fact.
13:53:44  <Zuu> Intresting
13:54:25  <Arafangion> Zuu: We used to have the Irish alphabet as well, which is vaguely similar to the ASL one... But it's almost died out.
13:54:58  <andythenorth> spongie: no, the extra cb info is specific to the callback
13:55:06  <Zuu> l know that there has been an old two handed in Sweden, but now there is a one-handed that I don't know is used anywhere else.
13:55:09  <andythenorth> some have extra variables you can use / need
13:55:37  <Zuu> Eg. I don't know a specific place that uses it aswel. Could be that there exist a place that uses it which I don't know.
13:55:41  <andythenorth> spongie: you can pass information between switches if you need to, but often you don't need to
13:56:00  <Arafangion> Zuu: Interesting, I thought the two-handed was used only in the BANZSL family (British, Australian and NZ Sign Languages)
13:56:11  <MNIM> heh - sign language is amusing.
13:56:12  <spongie> andythenorth: its working. thanks for the paste
13:56:21  <MNIM> we've got three dutch schools for the deaf.
13:56:29  <andythenorth> spongie: np
13:56:34  <MNIM> they all use a different language.
13:56:48  <MNIM> well, the same language, but differing signs.
13:57:03  <Zuu> Arafangion: I don't know how long time ago it was used. It resambled how the latin alphabet letters look.
13:57:09  <Arafangion> MNIM: Not uncommon.
13:57:35  <Arafangion> Zuu: Ah, I see.  The two-handed alphabet we use does not resemble the letters (well, some of them do... But most don't)
14:00:53  <Arafangion> MNIM: Having variations like that between schools is very common..
14:01:16  <Arafangion> MNIM: But as long as the _language_ is the same, I don't think it is a problem, at all.
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14:01:53  <MNIM> well, the sign for 'dog' may mean 'horse' on another school.
14:02:10  <Zuu> Indeed, for people who sign better than me, it is sometimes possible to see which teacher a person had from their way of signing.
14:02:11  <MNIM> so the sentence 'I like to ride horses' might be awkward.
14:02:22  <spongie> damn it. my second train has its front and rear car going sideways in certain directions.
14:02:55  <MNIM> sounds like you misplaced a few sprites :d
14:02:56  <Zuu> MNIM: But they would still use different mouth movements.
14:03:25  <Arafangion> Zuu: Not neccessarily.
14:03:32  <Arafangion> Zuu: Some groups don't mouth at all.
14:03:39  <andythenorth> spongie: your sprites are wrong, or more likely your spritesets ;)
14:03:39  <Zuu> Yea
14:03:55  <spongie> andythenorth: its an exact copy of the previous
14:04:02  <MNIM> I don't think my niece uses her mouth while signing.
14:04:16  <spongie> andythenorth: the only thing that changed is the Y offset
14:04:36  <MNIM> she can talk (with effort) though, but she prefers not to whenever possible.
14:04:54  <Arafangion> MNIM: Riding dogs is suffiently uncommon that you'd ask for clarification if you didn't realise that they use the horse sign for that.
14:04:57  <andythenorth> spongie: paste?
14:05:21  <Arafangion> MNIM: I'm in a similar situation - I can talk (with ease, actually, and quite well), but I _still_ prefer not to whenever possible.
14:05:32  <spongie> andythenorth: http://pastebin.ca/2123795
14:06:08  <MNIM> well, yeah, that was an example.
14:06:19  <andythenorth> spongie: which one has the issues?
14:06:22  <spongie> andythenorth: c15
14:06:44  <spongie> andythenorth: under the c15 comment you can see the template is using offset 7 and 8
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14:07:45  <spongie> andythenorth: the position arguments to the switch have % 4, ive removed them with the same effect
14:07:51  <spongie> just thought id go out on a limb and try something
14:09:42  <andythenorth> hmm
14:09:56  <andythenorth> I don't actually know what the % 4 is doing in this context
14:10:16  <andythenorth> might have to look at nml expressions docs
14:10:51  <Eddi|zuHause> %4 is like an AND-mask of 03
14:10:59  <spongie> isnt a mod ?
14:11:10  <Illegal_Alien> Hurray at beeing in the middle of licensing stuff wich i cant change :/
14:11:20  <spongie> andythenorth: anyway, removing it doesnt change the problem
14:11:37  <Eddi|zuHause> Illegal_Alien: welcome to the beatuiful side of copyright
14:11:56  <spongie> andythenorth: image is http://46.59.11.201/test/swedish_metro.png
14:13:41  <andythenorth> spongie: something in template tmpl_vehicle_8_views  is bothering me
14:13:47  <andythenorth> I can't tell you what
14:14:01  <andythenorth> do you get \ view when you expect / view?
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14:14:23  <spongie> I get /
14:14:35  <spongie> but in \ going south the rear car is sideways
14:14:44  <spongie> and going north the front car is sideways
14:15:19  <andythenorth> ach it's not the template
14:15:22  <andythenorth> :)
14:15:32  <andythenorth> check the last column of the blue metro train sprites ;)
14:15:41  <andythenorth> compare it to the one above ;)
14:16:09  <planetmaker> if only all newgrf authors and sprite artist would use GPL in our community we would have no such problem
14:16:14  <spongie> HAAA
14:16:33  <Arafangion> GPL actually makes this harder.
14:16:43  <andythenorth> Arafangion: and your evidence is...?
14:17:03  <Arafangion> andythenorth: The license contains restrictions.
14:17:13  <spongie> It's beautiful!
14:17:16  <Arafangion> andythenorth: Therefore, it's harder to reconcile different licenses.
14:17:20  <Arafangion> spongie: Not arguing that!
14:18:06  <spongie> Arafangion: it looks just like when i was kid.
14:18:07  <Arafangion> It's an elegant way to encourage opensource software... But it does make it harder to try and get it to cooperate with other licenses, particularly what are now referred to as 'gpl incompatible licenses'.
14:18:27  <spongie> wrong recipient
14:18:42  <spongie> andythenorth: (it looks just like back in the 70's and 80's)
14:19:03  * Arafangion heads off to bed.
14:19:04  <spongie> now for the new adtranz train
14:19:06  <andythenorth> Arafangion: the viable alternatives are...?
14:19:20  <Arafangion> andythenorth: Hard to say. :) Depends on what you want to use it for...
14:20:42  <planetmaker> Arafangion: how does the GPL make it harder?
14:20:55  <planetmaker> to what state do you compare?
14:21:01  <planetmaker> certainly not "no license"
14:21:04  <Arafangion> planetmaker: Well, consider teh MIT license.
14:21:18  <Arafangion> But anyway, G'night!
14:21:27  <andythenorth> bye ;)
14:22:14  <Illegal_Alien> The only restriction i see is the my current position between the 2 sides :p
14:22:45  <andythenorth> the only problem with GPL is idiots not using it 'because licensing is boring'
14:22:55  <andythenorth> they're like fricking children
14:23:27  <andythenorth> they should piss off to deviant art or their private simuscape community or whatever
14:23:41  <andythenorth> adults use the GPL to make their toys
14:24:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Illegal_Alien: there's only two ways to go: a) continue with CC-BY-NC-ND, and write every code from scratch, or relicense the sprites as GPL and be able to use existing code
14:24:33  <Illegal_Alien> 3 ways :)
14:24:39  <andythenorth> dual license the code
14:24:50  <Illegal_Alien> Nope stop working on it :P
14:24:51  <andythenorth> or do none of the above, spend time on something more fun :P
14:25:00  <Eddi|zuHause> licensing code with -ND is pretty stupid...
14:25:03  <andythenorth> Illegal_Alien: always include the 'do nothing argument' :D
14:26:09  <spongie> Damn, the C20 has a fixed number of units
14:26:25  <andythenorth> spongie: that's possible to handle
14:26:28  <andythenorth> in several ways
14:26:38  <andythenorth> how many carriages?
14:27:03  <Illegal_Alien> I wonder why its stupid. (As stated many times its a restriction the creators gave me). I understand why they are doing it though.
14:27:10  <Illegal_Alien> But on the other hand i am thinking :)
14:27:21  <spongie> andythenorth: there are 3 units, front and rear are engines + cargo
14:27:28  <spongie> the middle one is just cargo
14:27:32  <spongie> where cargo = passengers
14:27:48  <spongie> http://doc-0c-8g-3dwarehouse.googleusercontent.com/3dwarehouse/secure/hhulr73hmmak89paul31eote4ben7ngk/203clm8d83sqihjajj39jj8j9ue1d6pd/1330776000000/lt/*/ea3209ff81dba5a338fa498bfdb2dd10?ts=1202488770000&ctyp=other
14:27:52  <Illegal_Alien> nvm my head hurts with thinking
14:27:52  <spongie> ouch long url
14:28:02  <spongie> but those are the two configurations in use. 3 cars or 2x3 cars
14:28:16  <andythenorth> spongie: you need to create articulated vehicles
14:28:27  <andythenorth> iirc, the NML tutorial for trams shows how to do it
14:28:49  <spongie> indeed.
14:28:51  <spongie> thanks for the pointer.
14:28:53  <planetmaker> Illegal_Alien: why do they do it (the restrictions)?
14:28:56  <planetmaker> I don't understand it
14:29:00  <andythenorth> spongie: if you get stuck, holler
14:29:27  <andythenorth> I'm making assumptions which may be offensive, but usually artists use these stupid insufficiently restrictive licenses because of the following:
14:29:38  <andythenorth> - they're worried they're going to be 'exploited'
14:29:40  <Eddi|zuHause> Illegal_Alien: basically you have two "worlds" colliding here. one is the artist's world where "this is _my_ work and i want to control every aspect of it" and the other is the coder's world where "this is _my_ work, but other people should be able to contribute, reuse, continue, ..."
14:29:43  <andythenorth> - they want creative control
14:29:45  <andythenorth> - they're idiots
14:29:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Illegal_Alien: the two philosophies are incompatible
14:30:01  <andythenorth> - they don't like sharing
14:30:12  <andythenorth> - they don't understand and nobody has taken the time to explain
14:30:17  <Illegal_Alien> Its the train simulator community i think that says enough :)
14:30:30  <planetmaker> it doesn't tell me anything
14:30:43  <planetmaker> (I don't know that community)
14:30:56  <planetmaker> nor actually that game / programme
14:31:03  <andythenorth> they don't want their work repackaged and sold for money?
14:31:14  <Illegal_Alien> Bingo :p
14:31:24  <andythenorth> probably valid
14:31:35  <andythenorth> people measure that kind of loss irrationally
14:32:01  <andythenorth> there is a market for selling train sim addons
14:32:05  <planetmaker> but... if it's GPL, it may be sold. But the source has to be given as well. Thus anyone can give it away also for free...
14:32:23  <andythenorth> which is fine, but people freak out because they think they're losing somehow
14:32:47  <andythenorth> it's basically one of those cake slicing pyschological experiments :P
14:32:51  <planetmaker> also and especially, if included in something larger
14:33:38  <Illegal_Alien> And there is the catch, i need to add the original MSTS model and the 3D model wich is impossible :)
14:33:52  <andythenorth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prospect_theory
14:34:12  <planetmaker> yes, so, Illegal_Alien?
14:34:12  <andythenorth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_aversion
14:34:38  <planetmaker> oh... MSTS is the commercial game and the model taken from there?
14:34:43  <Illegal_Alien> Nope
14:34:54  <planetmaker> otherwise I see no catch
14:35:16  <Illegal_Alien> Wait i think we going to come to a solution
14:35:28  <Illegal_Alien> Do i have to includie the source of can i link to it?
14:35:33  <Illegal_Alien> *or
14:36:17  <Illegal_Alien> If i can link to it i can say its based uponn xyz model wich can be downloaded at location D
14:36:39  <andythenorth> it would be stretching GPL to do that
14:36:47  <andythenorth> maybe not to breaking point though
14:37:00  <planetmaker> it'd be stretching indeed
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14:37:05  <andythenorth> you don't have to distribute source with GPL
14:37:16  <andythenorth> but you have to be able to honour a request for sources
14:37:26  <andythenorth> which may be transmitted in a variety of ways
14:37:29  <planetmaker> but... I may not modify the model then
14:37:35  <planetmaker> so... probably that's not feasible
14:37:42  <andythenorth> you also have the right to charge a transmission fee for source ;)
14:38:05  <planetmaker> andythenorth: but not out of proportion. If you offer free download, you also must offer free source
14:39:37  <planetmaker> Illegal_Alien: I may not take the model and change that, right?
14:39:45  <Illegal_Alien> You may not change the model, but you can do with the sprites. (As i am the only one allowed to change them in the first place to create the sprites, after that everyone can pixelthingy them.)
14:40:54  <andythenorth> it's a right arse isn't it :)
14:41:15  <andythenorth> I'd be doing something else I reckon ;)
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14:42:08  <planetmaker> "The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it." kinda implies it's the models. So in short: won't work
14:43:24  <andythenorth> how many models are there?
14:43:28  <andythenorth> > some?
14:43:35  <Illegal_Alien> 100`s ?
14:44:12  <planetmaker> got a link?
14:44:15  <andythenorth> how droll
14:44:27  <andythenorth> are the artists contactable?
14:44:46  <Illegal_Alien> Yes they are
14:45:04  <andythenorth> is GPL discussion with them a source of boring drama?
14:45:30  <Illegal_Alien> But the models are available for everyone to download and with the correct tools (free) you can change them.
14:45:45  <Illegal_Alien> Erm yes, some are even dramaqueens about having them in Locomotion :P
14:45:56  <andythenorth> are there others who might be amenable?
14:46:13  <andythenorth> we have ttd artists who get all drama-tised when licensing is mentioned
14:46:21  <andythenorth> and others who are 'meh, I agree'
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14:47:02  <Illegal_Alien> I could try the one of the dutch trains, but i doubt it.
14:48:07  <planetmaker> well, got a link to some of these models, Illegal_Alien?
14:48:18  <michi_cc> The official GPL FAQ seems to be quite clear that "linking" to models can't be used to circumvent the GPL http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#MoneyGuzzlerInc (Replace library with 3D model in your mind)
14:49:11  <Illegal_Alien> http://www.christrains.com/msts.html for example
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15:06:13  <planetmaker> looks pretty commercial
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15:07:55  <Illegal_Alien> Some if them are commercial but the ones i link are free wich i have permision for to modify. But nvm forget the thread this is not going to work.
15:08:20  <andythenorth> the only route is for artists to license under GPL (or GPL compatible)
15:08:26  <andythenorth> or to code a set which is not GPL
15:08:28  <andythenorth> sorry :(
15:08:51  <Illegal_Alien> and as i cant code its simple :P
15:13:58  <andythenorth> can you create models?
15:16:20  <Illegal_Alien> Nope
15:16:26  <andythenorth> ach a vie :)
15:16:45  <Illegal_Alien> Well i tried, but it sucks :p
15:16:56  <andythenorth> hard place > Illegal_Alien < rock
15:17:41  <Illegal_Alien> Sounds fun
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15:46:55  <spongie> yay, articulation finished
15:48:46  <andythenorth> :)
15:50:26  <spongie> im having trouble finding the facts tho
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15:54:35  <spongie> ok. i think my grf is done
15:55:06  <spongie> ive found the proper data for each train
15:55:39  <spongie> http://46.59.11.201/test/swedish_metro.grf
15:55:47  <spongie> andythenorth: want to have a look?
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15:59:20  <spongie> btw, when i add the metro track set to my game with parameter "add as 3rd rail" i dont get the option to build it. i have to replace an existing track set, like monorail, to get it
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16:00:45  <spongie> looking at the docs there seems to be no way to keep 4 original tracks + the metro one
16:00:49  <MNIM> spongie: did you just change a newgrf during a game?
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16:00:53  <MNIM> *gasp*
16:01:37  <spongie> MNIM: no
16:01:48  <spongie> added metro tracks and then new game
16:02:23  <spongie> something about railtypes disabled?
16:02:35  <MNIM> 0-o
16:02:39  <MNIM> then I don't know.
16:03:28  <spongie> yep, checked, the metro track isnt available unless i set replace to mono or maglev in parameters
16:03:56  <planetmaker> other track sets?
16:05:07  <spongie> im trying the metro track set
16:05:16  <michi_cc> You're not going to get 3rd rail track without a 3rd rail vehicle.
16:05:26  <spongie> if I have the parameter "add 3rd rail" i dont get it
16:05:34  <spongie> michi_cc: how come?
16:06:37  <michi_cc> You can't build elrail/mono/maglev either with no available vehicle (unless you enable the advanced setting that is somewhere).
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16:07:49  <andythenorth> hmm
16:07:50  <andythenorth> wtf
16:07:57  * andythenorth just told a train in depot to ignore signals
16:08:02  <andythenorth> and it crashed in depot
16:08:18  <Wolf01> happens
16:08:22  <andythenorth> into another train that was stopped
16:08:27  <andythenorth> in depot
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16:09:41  <michi_cc> Then it wasn't stopped *in* the depot, but the last wagon or so ws still just so not in the depot.
16:10:20  <andythenorth> hmm
16:10:24  <andythenorth> wonder what stopped it
16:10:31  <andythenorth> maybe I misclicked
16:10:33  <andythenorth> plausible
16:10:34  <spongie> hm. im not sure how to make my trains use the metro track set
16:10:42  <spongie> line 260: Syntax error, unexpected token "RDC"
16:10:47  <spongie> seems it doesnt like the 3 in 3RDC
16:10:57  <spongie> as track type
16:11:22  <andythenorth> spongie: grf looks nice btw
16:11:29  <Eddi|zuHause> spongie: enclose it in ""
16:11:52  <andythenorth> you might consider offering sprites in company colours?
16:12:06  <andythenorth> also you might be able to fix the appearance in the vehicle info window
16:12:23  <andythenorth> there's a specific cb for the latter iirc
16:12:39  <spongie> Eddi|zuHause: "This expression can not be assigned to a parameter"
16:12:48  <andythenorth> and same in buy menu too - the sprites are positioned too high
16:13:07  <spongie> andythenorth: yeah i have to tweak the offsets a bit
16:13:14  <Eddi|zuHause> spongie: that might be an nml bug/oversight
16:13:23  <michi_cc> "The label 3RDR is written as a string because an identifier can't start with a numeric value. To reference it later you can write railtype("3RDR")." (http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Railtypetable)
16:14:50  <spongie> Yeah now it works
16:15:56  <andythenorth> package it with a license.txt for GPL, then stick it on bananas as v0.1
16:16:11  <andythenorth> wait for bug reports or feedback, then you can make it v1 ;)
16:16:29  <spongie> i have a bit of work left tho
16:16:36  <spongie> cost
16:16:37  <spongie> running cost
16:16:39  <andythenorth> release early, release often
16:16:48  * andythenorth didn't bother setting costs in HEQS for ~1 year
16:16:50  <spongie> visual effects
16:17:01  <spongie> also, im thinking about loading/unloading sprite sets
16:17:07  <andythenorth> doors open?
16:17:26  <andythenorth> visual effects is almost a no-go
16:17:29  <spongie> yeah
16:17:41  <spongie> andythenorth: i need either to turn off the sparks or make them move down to the track power
16:17:42  <andythenorth> newgrf support for visual effects is not forthcoming
16:17:44  <_maddy> guys anyone up for a multiplayer game?
16:17:50  <andythenorth> for reasons I can't remember, but may somehow be my fault :P
16:17:52  <Zuu> Hmm so Luukland offers its city builder as a single player download, but doesn't offer the source for the server? Sounds like a GPL violation if he still rejects if someone downloads the client and then asks for the source code.
16:18:25  <andythenorth> frosch123: what was the limitation on newgrf visual effects?  I didn't help write a spec?  Or something else?
16:20:16  <SpComb> Zuu: presumeably the source for the customized client distributed?
16:20:33  <SpComb> Zuu: there's nothing in the GPL to force anyone operating a server to disclose the source code of the server to anyone connecting to it
16:20:44  <andythenorth> GPL v2 ^
16:20:47  <SpComb> vs the AGPL
16:21:03  <andythenorth> does GPL v3 have an optional clause for that?  It's more AGPL compatible iirc
16:21:14  <SpComb> there's AGPLv3
16:21:50  <planetmaker> _maddy: there are many servers already running where multiplayer is on
16:21:51  <Zuu> The server and client may not use the same code. But any code that is in the client is possible to claim access to I think.
16:22:23  <SpComb> indeed
16:22:26  <_maddy> planetmaker: yeah I know, I am looking for a coop game though, like openttdcoop but in smaller scale
16:22:36  <Zuu> Oh, actually, there is a diff in the download zip.
16:22:38  <SpComb> but they can probably easily keep most of the functionality on the server and not have to release it
16:22:39  <planetmaker> Zuu: the citybuilder is not for connecting to the server
16:22:42  <michi_cc> Server, client, doesn't matter. If binaries are distributed, sources have to as well.
16:22:54  <SpComb> assuming, yes, that they don't distribute the server
16:23:16  <planetmaker> and the diff is indeed provided. Technically not sufficient. But as OpenTTD source remains available for all revisions, it allows to build that binary
16:23:35  <michi_cc> A diff is *not* enough if you read the GPL strictly.
16:23:41  <planetmaker> I know
16:23:42  <frosch123> andythenorth: i guess a combination of noone is interested in writing a spec, implementing it, or even collect the requirements
16:23:52  <planetmaker> "technically not sufficient", michi_cc :-)
16:24:08  <frosch123> it's a too minor thingie, there is more interesting stuff than visual effects (at least for me)
16:24:14  <michi_cc> Of course, that would invalidates basically every OpenTTD patch ever posted anywhere, so we tend not to care.
16:24:18  <planetmaker> ^^
16:24:46  <michi_cc> Assuming of course the diff really is complete and the compiled result will be identical to what they offer as binary.
16:25:22  <Zuu> michi_cc: Posting a diff but no binary isn't a violation is it?
16:26:00  <SpComb> heh, that would be a fine license, requiring you to distribute the binary for any derived source works
16:26:31  <Zuu> binary for what arcitecture? :-)
16:26:38  <michi_cc> Not posting a binary is not a violation, but technically you would have to at least post a file with the license text as well.
16:27:13  <spongie> the Microsoft EULA rules. thats what everybody should use.
16:27:56  <michi_cc> Which rules? The rules that are probably 95% of the times invalid in e.g. Germany? :)
16:28:10  <spongie> i meant it rules
16:28:12  <spongie> it rocks
16:28:13  <spongie> its awesome
16:28:16  <spongie> ... not
16:33:25  <andythenorth> frosch123: but....but...but.  Visual effects are absolutely the highest priority, and I demand that they're worked on NOW!
16:33:30  <andythenorth> or I want my money back :P
16:34:36  <Zuu> In that case, where are flashing text effects for the GS messege dialog? :-)
16:34:53  <andythenorth> you need a marquee effect as well
16:35:28  <andythenorth> there was a spec for visual effect: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4263
16:35:35  <planetmaker> and I want to drive trains and have force-feedback on the levers!
16:35:40  <Zuu> A starter would though be to allow to align the text to left and not have it centered. :-)
16:36:28  <andythenorth> and I want a pony!
16:36:38  <Zuu> Why don't we have html in OpenTTD? ;-)
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17:00:26  <Yexo> Why don't we have OpenTTD in html?
17:02:18  <Eddi|zuHause> didn't we want to port openttd to javascript?
17:02:33  <Eddi|zuHause> in a week?
17:02:36  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
17:03:01  <andythenorth> generate it :P
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17:05:38  <andythenorth> this:             output_path = common.get_output_path(length + '_tipping_trailer_' + variation.connection_type + '_' + variation.set_name + '_' + variation.cargo + '.png')
17:05:48  <andythenorth> or put it in a list, then use '_'.join on it?
17:05:57  <andythenorth> which will look smarter, but use more LOC :P
17:06:02  <andythenorth> and add pointless abstraction
17:06:54  <Eddi|zuHause> not pointless, you can more easily customise the naming scheme
17:07:31  <andythenorth> hmm
17:07:33  <Eddi|zuHause> current CETS naming scheme is <vehicle id>_<length>_<livery/cargo>_<8/32bpp>_<zoom>
17:07:50  <andythenorth> that code i pasted is defined in multiple files, calling that common function
17:08:04  <andythenorth> if I just passed all the vars as args....the common function could construct the total path
17:08:14  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
17:08:21  <andythenorth> I'll buy that for a dollar
17:08:23  <Eddi|zuHause> functional abstraction/refactoring
17:08:45  <andythenorth> hmm
17:09:00  <andythenorth> **args or explicit args?
17:09:05  <Eddi|zuHause> construct_filename(arg1, arg2, ...)
17:09:46  <Eddi|zuHause> get_output_path(construct_filename(*args))
17:10:39  <Eddi|zuHause> get_output_path(construct_filename(id, length, variation))
17:10:52  <andythenorth> yarp
17:10:55  <andythenorth> the latter
17:10:58  <andythenorth> thanks :)
17:11:26  <andythenorth> much better
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17:45:39  <spongie> andythenorth: do you have any specific suggestions regarding the alignment of the sprites in the grf?
17:56:35  <andythenorth> spongie: the on-track alignments look fine
17:56:51  <andythenorth> if you look at the buy menu view, you're too high (clipping into the next row)
17:56:59  <andythenorth> if you look at vehicle info window, same issue
17:57:07  <andythenorth> there are specific cbs that let you tweak those
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18:01:32  <spongie> andythenorth: thts true for all trains in my buy menu
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18:05:23  <spongie> andythenorth: http://46.59.11.201/test/swedish_metro.grf
18:05:32  <spongie> maybe i fixed it after you downloaded... hm
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18:22:47  <andythenorth> spongie: not fixed in that version ^
18:22:48  <andythenorth> ;)
18:23:14  <andythenorth> you're only 1px too high
18:23:35  <andythenorth> you just need a custom spriteset with offset for the buymenu, or a custom graphic
18:28:41  *** longbyte1 [4673c63e@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
18:28:57  <longbyte1> Quick question
18:29:27  <longbyte1> how do you drop a cargo and take something at the same time?
18:29:51  <longbyte1> for example, I want to move livestock and grain to a factory
18:29:58  <longbyte1> but I also want to pick up the goos
18:30:05  <longbyte1> goods*
18:30:37  <longbyte1> and then I come back to the farm where I transfer the goods
18:31:31  <longbyte1> hello?
18:32:22  <andythenorth> longbyte1: put wagons for all cargos in your train
18:32:33  <andythenorth> hmm
18:32:40  <andythenorth> actually I don't think you can do this
18:33:04  <Wolf01> not with the same order, but you can go to depot then back to load
18:33:17  <planetmaker> longbyte1: you need a sufficiently new trainset which allows wagons to refit to all the cargos in question
18:33:17  <andythenorth> when you transfer the goods at the farm, they'll be reloaded by the train
18:33:48  <planetmaker> I can suggest to give OpenGFX+ a try. Though livestock is difficult. Those wagons are a bit special and iirc cannot be automatically refit to or from liestock in stations
18:34:01  <planetmaker> You'll need OpenTTD 1.2.0-RC1
18:34:13  <planetmaker> earlier versions won't cut it
18:35:14  <andythenorth> ow ow
18:35:27  <andythenorth> figuring out generating cargo sprites hurts my head
18:35:34  <planetmaker> *OpenGFX+ Trains
18:40:45  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: 24 years in and I just had a primary close
18:43:02  <spongie> primary close?
18:43:27  <Rhamphoryncus> First primary industry closure
18:43:38  <Rhamphoryncus> in the firs patch I'm working on
18:44:23  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24002 /trunk/src/lang/ (croatian.txt hungarian.txt):
18:44:23  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:44:23  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 9 changes by VoyagerOne
18:44:23  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: hungarian - 5 changes by Brumi
18:45:53  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: expected or unexpected?
18:46:03  <andythenorth> there are bug reports that they close, but code says no
18:46:05  <Rhamphoryncus> Expected.  Been watching it.
18:46:07  <andythenorth> k
18:46:13  <andythenorth> sounds plausible
18:46:21  <Rhamphoryncus> Just a very long time
18:47:31  <andythenorth> trying to control it further needs to be outside newgrf
18:47:35  <andythenorth> like NoGo or such
18:48:34  <longbyte1> company val = ?
18:49:34  <Rhamphoryncus> No, this is simply due to the rate at which the production level drops
18:49:43  <Rhamphoryncus> It took most of that time to hit 25%
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18:52:22  <spongie> gonna call it quits for tonight. byesies!
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18:54:00  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Why'd you say custom sprites for the buy menu, isn't http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/GlobalVariables#Y-Offset_for_train_sprites_.280E_.2F_8E.29 enough?
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18:54:35  <DrSpangle> hi everyone, i'm having a problem with bananas
18:54:57  <DrSpangle> i need some advice, maybe some troubleshooting tips
18:55:47  <__ln__> if they are green, the taste is suboptimal
18:56:22  <DrSpangle> troubleshooting suggestions?
18:57:10  <DrSpangle> also, i'm trying to download av8 and the total town replacement pack, because some version or another is required to play in openttdcoop's public server. problem is, the download is simply stopping after 4kb and won't proceed
18:57:30  <DrSpangle> when i cancel and try again, sometimes it just says "could not decompress the downloaded file", but i'm sure it hasn't even downloaded it successfully to start with
19:00:16  <DrSpangle> if it helps, i need av8 v1.81, and total town v3.02a
19:00:40  <DrSpangle> i was trying to download and install them manually but i've had no success because i'm going round in circles trying to find an actual download link
19:00:54  <longbyte1> is it just me, or is the ai unbeatable
19:05:07  <michi_cc> longbyte1: There are several different AIs, and e.g. IdleMore is definitely beatable, so it is you :p
19:08:38  <DrSpangle> well, i made a breakthrough, i got up to 28kb of the av8 set before it's stalled now
19:09:38  <DrSpangle> can anyone help me?
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19:22:30  <xiong> DrSpangle, yes, you are definitely doing this the hard way. Launch the game itself and go to Online Content.
19:23:15  <DrSpangle> that's how i've been trying to do it. i am clicking multiplayer, clicking the openttdpublic server. i've installed their standalone GRF pack which required a manual install, but when i check the missing files, i am prompted to download av8 and total town replacement, like i said
19:23:20  <DrSpangle> i'm running /openttd-trunk-r23974-windows
19:23:23  <DrSpangle> 64 bit
19:23:54  <xiong> Hm. Well, I know nothing specific about coop. Is that the correct game version?
19:24:31  <DrSpangle> yes, the problem is the GRF files mismatch
19:24:36  <DrSpangle> only the two which i specified
19:25:07  <DrSpangle> the issue comes when attempting to download them using the ingame content manager, the download begins and i am given a notification messagebox, but the download seems to stall very early on and does not continue, and it doesn't time out either
19:25:14  <DrSpangle> so i just sit there looking at a 1% download
19:26:49  <xiong> Sorry, can't help. I've always gotten good results with Online Content. Maybe retry, a bit more patience? Occasionally successful approach.
19:27:15  <DrSpangle> sadly i've been retrying for the past couple hours. it's a 2MB download, so this should take all of 10 seconds maximum
19:27:33  <xiong> Oh. Excessive patience.
19:27:48  <DrSpangle> either something is wrong with whatever server is sending me the data, or something's wrong on my end, and i can't figure out what on earth the issue is
19:28:13  * xiong clueless
19:28:29  <DrSpangle> well, i guess i can try the ol' burn everything down and reinstall approach
19:29:52  <TWerkhoven[l]> win7?
19:29:58  <DrSpangle> x64, yes
19:30:07  <DrSpangle> i'm using the /openttd-trunk-r23974-windows-win64 build
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19:30:36  <TWerkhoven[l]> out-of-game downloads, do they work fine?
19:30:41  <DrSpangle> they certainly do
19:30:55  <DrSpangle> i'm not detecting any problems with my network in any sense
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19:35:19  <DrSpangle> here's a headscratcer... the my documents\openttd\data\ folder is empty inside
19:35:34  <DrSpangle> but when i extract files into there they want to be replaced
19:35:38  <TWerkhoven[l]> i'm sure i saw something somewhere about people having trouble downloading stuff using win7 (not ottd related), cant find it right now
19:35:46  <TWerkhoven[l]> o_O
19:35:48  <TWerkhoven[l]> thats odd
19:36:01  <TWerkhoven[l]> what does command prompt say?
19:36:04  <DrSpangle> yes very, obviously i have show hidden files enabled
19:36:04  <MNIM> DrSpangle: you tried making hidden files visible?
19:36:11  <MNIM> ..doh, ninja'd
19:36:23  <TWerkhoven[l]> system files too i presume?
19:36:28  <DrSpangle> naturally
19:38:16  <TWerkhoven[l]> what does 'dir /a' say when in command prompt in that directory?
19:38:26  <DrSpangle> just a moment
19:38:42  <DrSpangle> ... says it's empty
19:38:45  <DrSpangle> this is truly bizarre
19:39:04  <TWerkhoven[l]> theres a my documents in all users, and one in your specific profile
19:39:15  <TWerkhoven[l]> is it possible your working in 2 different folders?
19:39:59  <DrSpangle> it's possible, i'm verifying
19:40:14  <DrSpangle> the path i verified in cmd was definitely the one associated with my user account
19:40:36  <TWerkhoven[l]> so whats in the all user one
19:40:43  <DrSpangle> also empty
19:40:57  <DrSpangle> okay
19:41:03  <DrSpangle> the problem i'm having is actually more bizarre than this
19:41:34  <DrSpangle> i was extracting the files into that folder using 7zip, but the problem isn't that it's trying to overwrite the destination files, it's trying to overwrite an already extracted copy of this in a temporary folder, then copy it over
19:41:43  <DrSpangle> but it's hanging now, at the confirm file replace messageox
19:42:05  <DrSpangle> further, i've deleted the contents of that temporary folder, but it's still giving me the message when i attempt to extract again (after terminating the 7zip session of course)
19:42:29  <DrSpangle> perhaps i'll just clear that temp folder again and restart
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19:45:32  <andythenorth> michi_cc: wrt train offset - I don't code trains, I always forget about that var :P
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19:46:48  <DrSpangle> okay
19:46:51  <DrSpangle> i've met with some success
19:47:13  <DrSpangle> i've also reinstalled all the grfs and done the whole shebang over, but i'm still getting jammed while downloading total town replacement
19:48:07  * andythenorth considers adapting the BANDIT code to provide trains
19:48:11  <andythenorth> and giving it to Neko
19:48:19  <andythenorth> could I handle the support requests though? :P
19:49:13  <andythenorth> maybe he could use CETS :D
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19:51:49  <DrSpangle> still no luck
19:51:54  <DrSpangle> i'm all but certain this is a problem with bananas
19:53:36  <DrSpangle> can anyone suggest how i might be able to determine what's wrong
19:53:56  <DrSpangle> it just seems that as soon as i hit these two packages to download, they're going SUPER slow
19:54:12  <DrSpangle> to me, this suggests the server hosting it is messed up
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20:03:33  <planetmaker> which packages, DrSpangle?
20:05:22  <andythenorth> hmm
20:05:22  <andythenorth> how to profile python?
20:05:23  <michi_cc> DrSpangle: If you're using 1.2.0-something or trunk since the same time NewGRFs are in newgrf\ instead of data\ now.
20:05:29  <andythenorth> or wait until the script is annoyingly slow?
20:10:53  * andythenorth discovers cProfile
20:11:20  <valhallasw> andythenorth: it's generally not really worth the effort
20:11:43  <andythenorth> I'm not actually sure what I'd do with the findings :P
20:11:54  <valhallasw> but cProfile works well, and there is a nice visualisation tool
20:11:59  <valhallasw> let me check what the name is...
20:12:26  <andythenorth> the code is optimised for ease of authors using its API, not for speed :P
20:12:35  <valhallasw> http://www.vrplumber.com/programming/runsnakerun/
20:14:29  <andythenorth> hoo
20:14:33  <andythenorth> coloured polygons
20:16:29  <andythenorth> hmm
20:16:35  <andythenorth> I worry that my code scales badly though
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20:30:20  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: your sense of humour is very dry
20:30:29  <andythenorth> or you miss roujin's point ;)
20:31:27  <__ln__> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/mar/02/police-privatisation-security-firms-crime
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21:12:32  <Elu> private police... i bet that'll work just as well as private prisons!
21:12:36  *** Elu is now known as Elukka
21:12:42  <Elukka> ie, huge profit and lots and lots of abuse
21:16:33  <Nat_aS> It's been proven to be a bad idea in america
21:16:37  <frosch123> andythenorth: i think he missed the point :)
21:16:44  <Nat_aS> Even americans don't like rentacops
21:16:58  <Nat_aS> and we LOVE privatization.
21:18:16  <Elukka> parts of america even ban private prisons!
21:18:32  <Nat_aS> and the ones that don't are gonna have to learn at some point.
21:19:31  <Elukka> man will it ever be easy (easier) for the rich to get away with crime when the police force is privatized
21:19:47  <Elukka> no need for expensive lawyers! just call in a favor and nobody will investigate
21:20:14  <Nat_aS> how can we make this OTTD related?
21:20:38  <Nat_aS> there should be more ways to lobby the local authority instead of just trees and bribery.
21:21:05  <Elukka> :D
21:21:23  <Nat_aS> like you should be able to build offices (not just the main office) in towns that cost upkeep but slowly raise the company rating.
21:21:35  <Nat_aS> people say it's not a problem, but they don't play on jungle maps
21:21:40  <Nat_aS> or try to build commuter rail.
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21:22:37  <Nat_aS> although at the stage in the game when commuter rail is practical, you usualy have enough money to bribe your way into tearing the city in half to build a raill line
21:22:57  <Nat_aS> and usualy have existing lines raising the opinion for you.
21:23:35  <Nat_aS> another unrelated idea would be buying stock in non-transport companies
21:23:35  *** Illegal_Alien [~Illegal_A@ip4da39612.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:23:56  <Nat_aS> like factories and maybe even viechile manufacturers.
21:24:59  <Nat_aS> and if you abuse it too much, the regional inspector could bust you for insider trading or having an illegal monopoly.
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21:58:41  <Rhamphoryncus> Nat_aS: The best way to raise rating in the long term is to build a couple passenger or mail depots and service them well
21:59:05  <Rhamphoryncus> gah, not depots.  Stations :P
22:07:51  *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
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22:23:10  <Nat_aS> lol
22:23:21  <Nat_aS> that's EFFORT though
22:23:29  <Nat_aS> you have to micromanage busses
22:23:37  <Nat_aS> It's so much easier to keep track of trains
22:26:21  *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
22:29:34  *** APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:30:32  <MINM> Meh
22:30:39  <MINM> Shared orders fix that
22:30:50  <Nat_aS> shared orders can be complicated to set up
22:30:58  <MINM> Pretty easy.
22:31:10  <Nat_aS> although I just learned that ctrl clicking when coping auto-shares.
22:31:16  <MINM> make one vehicles with full order list, then Ctrl+clone as necessary
22:31:25  <Nat_aS> I wish it also auto assigned to the same list
22:31:43  <MINM> to the same vehicle group?
22:32:02  <MINM> it should, if you pressed 'add shared vehicles' once - at least, that's what it seems to do for me
22:32:17  <Nat_aS> maybe it does, I haven't checked in a while
22:32:32  <Nat_aS> still we need more non station buildings that do things
22:32:44  <Nat_aS> I liked the bars and hotels in RT3
22:32:47  <NGC3982> evening.
22:33:02  <MINM> ...wat
22:33:13  <MINM> why did I read that as 'whores and brothels?
22:33:16  <MINM> :S
22:33:27  <MINM> what the fuck, freud. NOT COOL
22:33:30  <Nat_aS> lol, you could imagine them as that
22:33:32  <Nat_aS> :P
22:35:24  <Nat_aS> i had an idea for an erotic story once where a railroad company subsidized the whores that hung around the stations, Making sure they have vaccinations and such, and give a percentage of there earnings to the company, in exchange for free fares
22:35:40  * Nat_aS has strange ideas sometimes.
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22:45:20  <MINM> ...0-o
22:45:27  <MINM> I thought I was in another channel at once.
22:45:40  <MINM> there's other places I go where I would expect that post sooner.
22:45:48  <Nat_aS> lol
22:45:50  <Nat_aS> same here
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23:07:26  <NGC3982> :-o
23:09:27  <Zuu> Hmm, after running squirrel_export.se which now seem to take significantly longer than before NoGo was merged, I found out that I was re-generating it for the wrong hg clone. :-)
23:10:11  <Arafangion> Zuu: Using production machines by mistake? :)
23:10:12  <NGC3982> http://i.imgur.com/TzsjD.png
23:10:15  <NGC3982> do you see what i see?
23:10:21  <Zuu> Good news, it didn't generate any differences when running it on plain trunk.
23:11:01  <Arafangion> NGC3982: I see one carriage, which turns out to be two.
23:11:18  <NGC3982> hehe, exactly.
23:11:35  <NGC3982> something to report?
23:11:55  <Arafangion> NGC3982: Also, the logo on that carriage is backwards.
23:12:07  <Arafangion> Hmm, no it isn't.
23:12:09  <Zuu> Arafangion: At least I used it on my "plain truck" respority which doesn't have any patch work. Instead I use this one to pull and then I clone from "plain trunk" to create working directories for different patch works.
23:12:16  *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit []
23:12:22  <NGC3982> let's see what happends when it starts moving.
23:12:56  <Arafangion> Zuu: Methodical.
23:14:00  <Zuu> Its also faster than fetching sources from openttd.org each time you want a new working directory as I did before when I was using svn.
23:14:01  <NGC3982> Arafangion: it solved itself.
23:14:09  <NGC3982> a trip to the depot was enough to fix it.
23:14:20  <Arafangion> Zuu: Yep... I'm a git fan, myself.
23:14:30  <Zuu> With SSD, making a clone is instant. :-)
23:15:39  <Arafangion> Zuu: With git, making a local clone will hard-link the object database. :)
23:16:00  *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:16:29  <Zuu> Thats then even faster, but I guess that doesn't happen on Windows?
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23:18:17  <Arafangion> Zuu: Don't know.
23:18:27  <Arafangion> Zuu: I doubt it, although windows does support 'Junction points".
23:18:31  <Zuu> I know there is some support for mounting disks at a directory in windows. Unsure if it supports symbolic/hard links.
23:19:28  <Arafangion> It supports symbolic links with different semantics, and junction points which are kinda like a directory hard-link.
23:19:56  <Arafangion> I've yet to find a real-world use of it, though.
23:23:21  <DrSpangle> planetmaker and michi_cc: i am using trunk r23974. the instructions on the openttdcoop wiki told me to put the files into the /data/ folder, and that's done, but the issue is that i can't download the required packs i need to play there - av8 v1.81 and total town replacement 3.02a
23:23:41  <DrSpangle> the downloads are just stopping at 1% and not going further, i've had them downloading for 3 hours now and it hasn't moved
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