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Log for #openttd on 5th March 2012:
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00:36:02  <Rhamphoryncus> Broken link: http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/nml-language.html#block-town_names from http://wiki.openttd.org/Town_names
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00:57:05  <glx> Rhamphoryncus: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Town_names
00:58:07  <Rhamphoryncus> glx: doesn't say what styles is for and afaict styles is what makes it a top-level block
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00:59:30  <glx> but that was the link to the old doc I think
00:59:43  <Rhamphoryncus> ahh
01:00:21  <glx> I just gave you the link to the current doc
01:00:25  * Rhamphoryncus nods
01:00:50  <glx> town name block in NML doc
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05:31:58  <andythenorth> bonjour
05:33:37  <supermop> hi
05:33:56  <supermop> up early?
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07:38:47  <peter1138> hexagonal numbers
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08:00:37  *** planetmaker changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.1.5, 1.2.0-RC2 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever | English only
08:00:41  <planetmaker> moin
08:04:39  <andythenorth> moin planetmaker
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08:11:06  * andythenorth ponders
08:11:39  <andythenorth> starting n tasks (python) for embarrassingly parallel work
08:11:47  <andythenorth> python?  make?  shell?
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09:04:31  <andythenorth> bonjour le Pikka
09:05:28  <Pikka> hi I'm Toni Babelony and what is GPL
09:05:33  <Pikka> hello andythenorth
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09:07:09  <andythenorth> Chateauneuf du Pape!
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09:14:32  <Pikka> you filthy swine you
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09:16:09  <andythenorth> oeuf sur la plat
09:16:29  <andythenorth> http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/onlyfools/lingo/euro.shtml
09:16:35  * andythenorth makes cargos
09:17:00  <andythenorth> Pikka: a little something I made earlier: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2555/test_coil.png
09:17:09  <andythenorth> it's a script that outputs those
09:18:13  <andythenorth> not generally useful, but specifically useful when you want to know the colour of a pixel and cba to match by eye
09:18:23  <Pikka> :)
09:18:50  <Pikka> guess it depends on your graphics program, I can just ctrl-click :P
09:19:11  <andythenorth> me too
09:19:43  <andythenorth> but when writing out pixel sequences in code (or colour shifting them)...I prefer this :)
09:19:58  <Pikka> ah, mmhm :)
09:20:06  * andythenorth might have cargo sprite generation working later today
09:20:57  <andythenorth> for each length 1/8 - 8/8, for each cargo, it will spit out a spritesheet with 4 load states
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09:22:25  <andythenorth> it also now loads the cargo sprites from bitmap files.   Writing them out by hand is....fun for a bit.
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09:23:46  <andythenorth> Pikka: do you use photostrop, or the other one?
09:23:58  <Pikka> the other one
09:24:04  <Pikka> for pixellation, at least
09:24:41  <andythenorth> layered files (xcf) ?
09:25:02  <Pikka> I keep meaning to get into photoshop...
09:25:03  <Pikka> no
09:25:07  <Pikka> not that other one, another other one
09:25:48  <andythenorth> I've found a psd-parsing module that seems to be able to work with layers
09:25:58  <andythenorth> which might cut out a bit more of the arsing around
09:26:22  <Pikka> hmm
09:27:04  <Pikka> my graphics program is over 10 years old! :D
09:27:09  <andythenorth> lolwut etc
09:27:19  <Pikka> paintshop pro 7!
09:27:29  <andythenorth> DanMacK has drawn many more sprites than me, to a better standard, with MS Paint :P
09:29:20  <Pikka> yes but he's special!
09:29:46  <Pikka> andy are you going to generate horses with pixa? :)
09:30:16  <andythenorth> pixa-horse?
09:30:20  <Pikka> yes
09:30:47  <Pikka> or at least the horse-drawn wagons
09:30:54  <andythenorth> hmm
09:31:01  <Pikka> for the putting of non-generated horses in front of
09:31:01  <andythenorth> can I use Zeph's instead? :P
09:31:12  <Pikka> zephs are a bit big IMO :P
09:31:20  <andythenorth> +1
09:31:21  <Pikka> I could have a go at a horse
09:31:29  <andythenorth> wagons are probably best drawn
09:31:33  <andythenorth> they're so...weeny
09:31:36  <Pikka> lol
09:31:38  <Pikka> well
09:31:51  <andythenorth> can composite loads on
09:32:14  <Pikka> I could draw horses for HOVS and then you could use them for BANDIT
09:32:19  <andythenorth> win win
09:32:24  <andythenorth> and HEQS trams
09:32:30  <andythenorth> horse drawn UKRS?
09:32:30  <Pikka> yes
09:32:35  <Pikka> no
09:32:51  * andythenorth once invented vehicle type 'flock of sheep' :P
09:32:58  <Pikka> lol
09:33:29  <planetmaker> carrying capacity: 1 bale of wool?
09:33:59  <andythenorth> 1t meat ;P
09:34:44  <andythenorth> planetmaker: any idea if make can start parallel build tasks?
09:35:00  <andythenorth> I know it has -j option, but that might be more magical than I can use
09:35:04  <planetmaker> a makefile does that automatically if used properly
09:35:27  <planetmaker> the -j option usually is only to *limit* the parallel threads
09:35:34  <andythenorth> presumably I need to segment my build scripts to work that way
09:35:44  <andythenorth> i.e. currently there's one monolithic python build script
09:36:00  <planetmaker> from my experience, things like NML as python scripts are 100% single-threaded
09:36:04  <andythenorth> yes
09:36:25  <planetmaker> target: dep1 dep2 dep3
09:36:28  <andythenorth> graphics generation however is embarrassingly parallel, and could be divided between n separate python processes
09:36:38  <planetmaker> is typical makefile usage to build dep1 dep2 and dep3 in parallel
09:36:44  <andythenorth> ho ok
09:36:56  <planetmaker> but they *MUST* be independent of eachother
09:37:02  <planetmaker> or that of course fails
09:37:07  <andythenorth> sure
09:37:10  <andythenorth> well it's worth a try
09:37:22  * andythenorth will remember it for later
09:37:40  <planetmaker> NewGRF building as it's now, there's not much to parallelise
09:37:58  <planetmaker> If you use something like pixa to create graphics: there's a lot to parallelise, though
09:38:03  <planetmaker> each could be done independently
09:38:23  <andythenorth> ogfx xcf extraction maybe same
09:38:59  <planetmaker> that is actually parallelised on the makefile level. But fails due to gimp instances messing with eachother
09:39:22  <planetmaker> if we use what frosch suggested, the xcf2png programme, it's a solved problem
09:39:28  <planetmaker> (and if that works in parallel)
09:39:52  <andythenorth> pixa will use 100% of one of my CPU thread units
09:39:56  <andythenorth> but I have 4 :P
09:41:35  <Pikka> only 4?
09:42:04  <andythenorth> think so
09:42:23  * Pikka basks in the glow of his 8
09:42:50  * andythenorth basks in the glow of his already too-hot laptop :P
09:42:58  <Pikka> ah, laptops :)
09:43:25  <Pikka> it's actually very hard to get fewer than 4 these days, I've just been costing a new computer for my grandmother
09:44:01  <Pikka> even the  celeron is HT dual core...
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09:55:20  * andythenorth is confused
09:55:31  <andythenorth> why does Toni care if people modify his grf and distribute?
09:56:29  <andythenorth> Pikka: you haven't drunk the GPL koolaid, any particular reason for you?
09:57:07  <Pikka> I don't know why he does, but releasing under the GPL is a pretty silly thing to do if he does.
09:57:37  <Pikka> I'd rather keep the option to tell people no, I guess andy. :)
09:57:49  <andythenorth> can't argue with that
09:58:45  <Pikka> also a not negligible number of things I release are still based on the original TTD graphics, so they're not mine to GPL in the first place. :P
09:58:53  <Pikka> like TaI
09:59:09  <andythenorth> that is a killer point
09:59:27  * andythenorth would like to avoid a repeat ever of the silly CanSet situation though :)
09:59:30  <Pikka> but little grfs I don't really care about I'll usually put under the gpl.
09:59:40  <planetmaker> well... it's not actually a killer point.
09:59:53  <planetmaker> Things based on them must not be released. You'd be liable this way or another
09:59:58  <planetmaker> Unless you have written permission
10:00:10  <Pikka> well, yes planetmaker
10:00:30  <planetmaker> If you don't need that, then... GPL would make your stuff work beyond your death
10:00:48  <planetmaker> or loss of interest
10:00:51  <planetmaker> like TTRS or ISR
10:00:54  <andythenorth> GPL based on copyright infringement is no GPL though :)
10:01:19  <Pikka> lol
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10:02:11  <andythenorth> planetmaker: they'll never find him anyway, he is like the scarlet pimpernel
10:02:32  <Pikka> or the black fingernail
10:02:58  <Pikka> hmm
10:03:13  * Pikka notes to self: add "The Old Cock" to the pub names in TaI
10:03:25  <andythenorth> you have pub names? :o
10:03:29  <Pikka> yes
10:03:30  <planetmaker> Sometimes I think we should only allow GPL-based content on bananas ;-)
10:03:49  <andythenorth> no need, just comply with takedown notices if it ever comes to that
10:04:14  * Pikka is willing to take his chances
10:04:20  * andythenorth has been using the Town part of TaI recently
10:04:29  <Pikka> I imagine if they ever come after TaI they'll go after OpenTTD first. :P
10:04:55  <andythenorth> think it might infringe the 'reverse engineering' part of a license agreement? :P
10:05:22  <andythenorth> we can always start a legal fund, we might get as much as....0
10:05:31  <Pikka> :)
10:05:39  <Pikka> I don't think it's going to happen either way.
10:05:43  *** smoovi_ is now known as smoovi
10:06:01  <Pikka> and what do you think, andy?
10:06:16  <andythenorth> if they discover that Rubidium is secretly a millionaire, they might go after him...
10:06:17  <Pikka> accepting submissions of graphics for TaI, btw. :P
10:06:32  <Pikka> *and what do you think about TaI, andy. :P
10:06:34  <andythenorth> houses or industries?
10:07:06  <Pikka> houses
10:07:12  <andythenorth> I like TaI, it's original style, has lots of character, seems to just work
10:07:21  <Pikka> :)
10:07:29  <andythenorth> houses are not so much my thing
10:07:35  <andythenorth> I drew one for opengfx once
10:07:38  <Pikka> fair enough :P
10:07:52  <Pikka> I'll get back into it soon.  need proper 19th century houses
10:08:06  <Pikka> and industries, but they're fairly well covered.
10:08:20  <andythenorth> their are enough industry parts lying around now
10:08:24  <Pikka> yes
10:08:29  <Pikka> and I'm not adding that many
10:08:31  <andythenorth> most of my new ones are made out of bits of old ones
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10:08:56  <Pikka> are fertiliser and fmsp the same thing?
10:09:08  <Pikka> I'm going to add a fertiliser factory to TaI
10:09:09  <andythenorth> they have the same game effect
10:09:13  <Pikka> that makes fertiliser out of nothing :D
10:09:26  <andythenorth> nitrogen fixing process?
10:09:30  <Pikka> mmhm
10:09:30  <andythenorth> deliver electricity :P
10:09:34  <andythenorth> lots of electricity
10:10:05  <Pikka> anyway, it will be the "interesting" mechanism I've been looking for for farms and forests.
10:10:20  * andythenorth wants to extend the map array, to store electricity value on each tile
10:10:34  <Pikka> lol
10:10:45  <andythenorth> items on the tile can have +ve or -ve effect on electricity values
10:10:46  * planetmaker thinks that town sizes / growth should be taken out of TAI and put in a separate but to-be-used-with-it game script
10:11:01  <andythenorth> electricity values propogate over n tiles
10:11:03  <Pikka> I don't.
10:11:20  <planetmaker> You're wrong  :-P
10:11:30  <Pikka> well
10:11:48  <planetmaker> NewGRFs are about controlling the single entities. Towns are global entities
10:12:06  <Pikka> currently I'd guess about 80% of people miss out on the town growth limits, because they use TaI with another house set.
10:12:10  <planetmaker> Global entities are for game scripts
10:12:29  <Pikka> if I took the growth limits out of the town set and put them in a game script, that number would change to about 100%
10:12:29  <planetmaker> And another 50% complain that towns don't grow
10:12:39  <Pikka> well
10:12:55  <Pikka> I need to improve the documentation and the feedback in-game (like by adding those town halls)
10:12:58  <planetmaker> NewGRFs have no interface for that while GameScripts are designed to handle exactly that
10:13:33  <planetmaker> When a NewGRF is asked to "grow town" it should also do that
10:13:37  <andythenorth> planetmaker: but we currently have no clean interface between newgrf and NoGo afaik?
10:13:44  <planetmaker> We do have
10:13:49  <andythenorth> oh :o
10:13:51  <andythenorth> I missed that :)
10:13:53  <planetmaker> or rather: what interface do you need?
10:14:01  <planetmaker> NewGRFs provided houses
10:14:09  <planetmaker> Scripts provide town growth conditions
10:14:19  <andythenorth> but the town growth conditions depend on the type of town
10:14:22  <andythenorth> as do the house choices
10:14:34  <andythenorth> so who has proper domain over that?  newgrf or NoGo?
10:14:39  <andythenorth> and how do they communicate?
10:14:42  <Pikka> planetmaker; afaic this argument is like the one about the production mechanisms in PBI/TaI Industries
10:14:43  <andythenorth> TownControl registers?
10:15:10  <planetmaker> Pikka: not sure what you mean. Can you refresh my memory?
10:15:21  * andythenorth was unconvinced by any of the available arguments last time NoGo + newgrf were discussed, including his own
10:15:22  <Pikka> the production limits are integral to the industry sets, if you take them out the grf becomes pointless
10:15:36  <andythenorth> that's ok, production is clearly internal to an industry
10:15:42  <andythenorth> closure is the grey area :P
10:15:49  <Pikka> heh
10:15:55  <planetmaker> kinda
10:16:01  <Pikka> well, deciding whether a house can be built is integral to a house? ;)
10:16:22  <planetmaker> whether a particular house can be built: yes
10:16:25  <Pikka> yes
10:16:28  <planetmaker> or rather which
10:16:44  <planetmaker> but it should not decide yes/no on whether to build anything
10:16:47  <andythenorth> but town expansion....global
10:17:00  <Pikka> well, it doesn't decide yes/no on whether to build anything
10:17:08  <andythenorth> global because it then opens the possibility of scripted scenarios, which might be rather fun to play
10:17:21  <planetmaker> now, that's playing words, Pikka :-)
10:17:52  <planetmaker> TaI clearly decides to not build houses anymore for certain date / town  combinations
10:18:02  <planetmaker> which lead to ... endless wastelands of roads
10:18:19  <Pikka> only if you play flat maps and grid roads :)
10:18:29  <planetmaker> I played neither
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10:18:51  <planetmaker> roads will be built, if no house can be built but the town is supposed to grow
10:19:03  <planetmaker> Thus the problem is independent of map style or road style
10:19:37  <planetmaker> Thus when I play with TaI I regularilly end up with this road wasteland
10:19:47  <andythenorth> so how would the NewGRF communicate to NoGo that no houses can be built for this town, when NoGo calls grow_town() or such?
10:19:48  <planetmaker> (yes, I play mountainous, rough maps only)
10:20:22  <planetmaker> andythenorth: it's not a NewGRF decision to not build any house. Or should not be
10:20:32  <andythenorth> but houses have availability cb
10:20:33  <planetmaker> The game script decides which town is supposed to grow
10:20:40  <andythenorth> but no house may be available
10:20:43  <planetmaker> yes. And the NewGRF should always make one available
10:20:54  <andythenorth> but that's not required by NewGRF spec....
10:20:55  <planetmaker> that's then a NewGRF bug or shortcoming
10:21:12  <planetmaker> shall I add it?
10:21:15  <andythenorth> so NewGRF spec needs rewriting to accommodate NoGo....
10:21:26  <andythenorth> it's same as cleaning up cargo classes mess
10:21:27  <planetmaker> It doesn't
10:21:43  <planetmaker> It just means that the NewGRF has to behave sanely basically
10:21:46  <Rhamphoryncus> heya andy, planetmaker
10:21:48  <andythenorth> spec as in 'how to use it' rather than 'code works like this'
10:21:58  <andythenorth> the conventions etc
10:22:21  <andythenorth> like python works if you ignore PEP-8, but if you want to work in a python project with others, not using PEP-8 gets you kicked around
10:22:22  <Rhamphoryncus> I've only skimmed but have you looked at multiprocessing?
10:22:23  <planetmaker> andythenorth: NewGRFs *cannot* control town growth. House NewGRFs can *only* refuse to build a house. Which means towns will grow roads. And roads. And roads And ...
10:22:29  <planetmaker> That's like this since TTD
10:22:50  <Pikka> planetmaker: sounds like something that can be improved in OpenTTD then :)
10:22:51  <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus: please search the archives for multicore discussions
10:23:05  <planetmaker> Pikka: it's solved. It's done by game scripts
10:23:26  <andythenorth> does game script query the newgrf house availabilty cb first?
10:23:29  <Rhamphoryncus> Funny thing: Guido van Rossum (creator of python) now works for google and the work he does for them doesn't use PEP-8
10:23:31  <planetmaker> They have all means at their hands. If something is missing for town control, they should get it. Not house NewGRFs
10:23:34  <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: it was a simple question
10:23:43  <planetmaker> house NewGRFs are for houses :-) Not towns :-P
10:23:53  <Rhamphoryncus> I actually meant to comment yesterday but I missed him
10:23:58  <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus: it was a simple answer
10:24:23  <andythenorth> planetmaker: so it's an issue of proper domain - but to make it work there might need to be new code + new conventions
10:24:31  <andythenorth> and it risks limiting authors
10:24:50  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: is multiprocessing a python module?
10:24:51  <planetmaker> NewGRFs never controlled town growth, andythenorth
10:24:55  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: yes
10:25:03  <Pikka> hmm
10:25:09  <Pikka> are AIs and game scripts the same thing?
10:25:17  <Rhamphoryncus> it wraps fork in an API similar to threading
10:25:22  <planetmaker> not the same thing, but they share a lot, Pikka
10:25:26  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus oh yes, I looked at it yesterday, it's the one that works with the GIL?  might be overkill for my problem....not sure
10:25:40  <planetmaker> there are things which are AI only and others which are GS only
10:25:41  <andythenorth> oh no, this is the one that sidesteps the GIL
10:25:46  <Rhamphoryncus> yes
10:25:49  <planetmaker> an AI can never act as company_deity :-)
10:26:21  <Rhamphoryncus> and it's part of the stdlib now which obviously makes it easier to acquire
10:26:31  <planetmaker> AI and GS are written both in squirrel and many functions are shared, though
10:26:50  <Pikka>  hmm
10:27:01  <andythenorth> planetmaker: try another case
10:27:04  <andythenorth> change primary industry production: NewGRF or NoGo?
10:27:08  <planetmaker> THIS ONE :-P
10:27:39  <Pikka> clearly the obvious solution is to remove all distinctions between AIs, game scripts and newgrfs. :P
10:27:48  <andythenorth> XML!
10:28:04  <planetmaker> Pikka: not quite. They serve different purposes
10:28:20  <Pikka> that is, to make a file format that can include any of the above and can only be loaded by the player as a single entity. :)
10:28:21  <planetmaker> When game scripts were devised, yes, we thought about this and the issues
10:28:38  <andythenorth> <node>for<node >i<node>in<node>foo<node>:<node>stuff</node></node></node></node></node>
10:28:39  <planetmaker> And to keep it separate for a reason: flexibility
10:29:04  <Pikka> there's flexibility and there's simplicity
10:29:10  <planetmaker> The single objects (houses, industries, vehicles...) are established via NewGRF. But they have local logic and influence only
10:29:35  <andythenorth> do we have NoGo bound to specific scenarios yet?
10:29:38  <planetmaker> The way the game works, that's global (towns growing, new industries, ..), that's for game script
10:30:00  <planetmaker> Keeping it separate allows really different games with the same game objects (NewGRFs) beging used
10:30:47  <planetmaker> Pikka: it's no issue to offer a related set of game scripts and NewGRFs which are supposed to work with eachother
10:30:57  <andythenorth> it's also going to lead to some entertaining drama between NewGRF authors and NoGo authors :D
10:31:03  <planetmaker> And it would be great. But making it monolithic would be counterproductive
10:31:06  <andythenorth> 'plz can I haz feature xyz'
10:31:07  <Pikka> of course it's an issue, planetmaker
10:31:22  <planetmaker> why or how?
10:31:40  <andythenorth> (1) support
10:31:44  <andythenorth> (2)...?
10:31:50  <planetmaker> how (1)?
10:31:54  <planetmaker> it's easier, if separate
10:32:36  <Pikka> planetmaker: why do we allow multiple vehicles, or multiple houses, per grf?
10:32:53  <andythenorth> planetmaker (1) only easier when the NoGo is tied to a specific known good set of newgrfs
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10:33:13  <Pikka> surely it would be no issue to offer a related set of grfs which are supposed to work with each other...
10:33:14  <planetmaker> Pikka: it's unhandy to select every vehicle separately ;-)
10:33:33  <Pikka> exactly
10:33:53  <planetmaker> But a NewGRF is not game control. Is not supposed to be
10:33:57  <planetmaker> It's item control
10:34:00  <andythenorth> Support: let's say you spend a year writing NoGo against FIRS 0.7.0.  Then we completely rewrite supplies behaviour, whilst also fixing a critical bug you needed fixed.  But now we broke your NoGo and you have to rewrite it for three months.
10:34:05  <planetmaker> that's conceptionally a difference
10:34:22  * andythenorth agrees with planetmaker resp. proper domains
10:34:25  * peter1138 yawns
10:34:28  <Pikka> planetmaker: then you need to give us a way to include local and global control in one distributable file
10:34:30  <andythenorth> but the interfaces look really messy to me
10:34:36  <andythenorth> or non-existent
10:34:38  <planetmaker> Pikka: no
10:34:46  * peter1138 agrees with pikka
10:34:48  <planetmaker> It's the player who chooses
10:34:49  <peter1138> i've not read what it is
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10:34:54  <peter1138> but i usually agree with pikka :p
10:34:59  <Pikka> planetmaker: but the player has no idea
10:35:05  <planetmaker> which goals he plays. And which Items he uses. But that's two different things
10:35:12  <Pikka> the player downloads every grf and runs them at the same time
10:35:16  <Pikka> and doesn't know what a gamescript is
10:35:18  <planetmaker> Pikka: and you do have an idea what's best for me?
10:35:32  <peter1138> game dictates to the player
10:35:39  <peter1138> that's how games work
10:35:44  <Pikka> yes, because I've put hundreds of hours into working out the gameplay of this content
10:35:52  <planetmaker> and players do know what game scripts is as much as NewGRFs.
10:35:56  <planetmaker> Or will learn that
10:36:04  <Pikka> and if no-one's ever going to play it, why bother?
10:36:04  <peter1138> okay, i can guess what this is about, and i still agree with pikka
10:36:16  <andythenorth> BUT IT'S NOT A GAME!!  IT'S A REALITY SIMULATOR!! FOR TRAINS !!  WTF LOL
10:36:32  <peter1138> "what's best for the player" is a good gameplay experience
10:36:52  <Pikka> exactly, peter
10:37:10  <Pikka> which doesn't come about from loading half a grf/script
10:37:12  <andythenorth> but with NoGo, because NoGo has to be monolothic (one per game), I can't just write a nice industry NoGo
10:37:20  <peter1138> i don't like it that people kill me all the time in TF2
10:37:25  <peter1138> but that's the gameplay ;p
10:37:27  <andythenorth> and I can't be arsed to make "Andy's version of OTTD"
10:38:00  <planetmaker> peter1138: I suggest you remove game scripts and implement that as NewGRF then
10:38:11  <andythenorth> global storage
10:38:24  <andythenorth> the thing we were never allowed to have, because of what NewGRF authors might do with it
10:38:47  <andythenorth> so now we have NoGo instead, and no reliable interface between NewGRF and NoGo
10:38:54  <andythenorth> more like an unexploded bomb interface
10:38:55  <planetmaker> or what was your argument?
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10:40:05  <planetmaker> Pikka: where's not the difference to add to the NeWGRF dialoge UKRS2, TaI, PBI and what-you-have not seen and also adding the TaI game script?
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10:40:23  <andythenorth> or load a scenario where all of those are baked into the save...
10:40:32  <planetmaker> that's what scenarios do...
10:40:37  <andythenorth> exactamly
10:41:28  <andythenorth> planetmaker: now you add the TAI game script, but you add ECS
10:41:30  <andythenorth> what happens?
10:41:39  <andythenorth> (1) explosions
10:41:44  <andythenorth> (2) support requests
10:41:52  <andythenorth> (3) lol-wtf this thing is crappy and broken
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10:41:58  <planetmaker> (4) everything just works
10:42:27  <planetmaker> as the GS would just grow some towns and others not
10:42:58  <planetmaker> would fund some industries and others not
10:43:35  <planetmaker> maybe find that it has not TaI at its disposal and ignore the industry part
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10:44:05  <andythenorth> so in the readme explaining what the GS does (and why to choose this one, not foobar.gs, or mylovelyGS.gs)....what do you say?
10:44:18  <andythenorth> how do you describe the behaviour, which won't always occur
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10:44:27  <planetmaker> though it probably would not find that
10:45:02  <planetmaker> andythenorth: you mean it would do *something* in a way which is unexpected. Thus like the current NewGRFs?
10:45:03  <andythenorth> as a GS author, how do you make sense of bug reports?  "E.g. no industries opened", "lots of towns with roads but no houses"
10:46:14  <andythenorth> a NewGRF does at least currently know its own spec, so can describe behaviour in readme etc
10:46:18  <planetmaker> The same way as we make sense of bug reports. Look at the issue and investigate
10:46:36  <planetmaker> "provide savegame or nothing can be said". Done
10:46:41  <planetmaker> as usual
10:46:46  <planetmaker> even w/o GS
10:47:02  <andythenorth> but with arbitrary NoGo, and arbitrary NewGRF it got much worse...
10:47:03  * planetmaker is tired and wanders off
10:47:32  <Pikka> lol
10:47:54  <Pikka> well, it would be nice if I could tell the town not to build road.  but I've never really had a problem with that anyway.. :)
10:48:15  <Pikka> so I guess it's back to "explain things better in the manual"
10:48:26  <Pikka> hello peter1138 btw :)  long time
10:48:29  <peter1138> you can tell it not to build a house, right?
10:48:36  <Pikka> yes.  well, no
10:48:39  <peter1138> which then leads to lots of random roads instead?
10:48:40  <planetmaker> wouldn't change that it's broken to limit town growth imho. but well. too tired of this
10:48:47  <Pikka> you can tell it, for each individual house, not to build that house.
10:49:04  <andythenorth> planetmaker: it will all come out in the wash, eventually ;)
10:49:16  <planetmaker> who cares
10:49:25  <Pikka> planetmaker: imo the town growth in OpenTTD breaks the game, which is why I created the grf in the first place.  but indeed, who cares.
10:49:37  <planetmaker> Pikka: it's ttd and ttdpatch behaviour
10:49:39  <peter1138> okay, so
10:49:41  <Pikka> I'll take the bug reports, and in the meantime try to limit them with good documentation.
10:49:45  <andythenorth> clearly we cared enough to debate this far :P
10:49:53  <Pikka> even so planetmaker, it breaks the game
10:49:57  <planetmaker> nope
10:50:07  <planetmaker> the newgrf does
10:50:12  <Pikka> and leads to people trying to do silly things like knobble aircraft.
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10:50:53  <planetmaker> maybe OpenTTD should in case of doubt build a fallback house ;-)
10:51:09  <Pikka> okay
10:51:18  <Pikka> I'll make it look like a road tile in TaI ;)
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10:52:34  <peter1138> btw
10:52:36  <peter1138> finish tai
10:52:37  <peter1138> cos it's awesome
10:53:00  <Pikka> I'll try
10:53:13  <Pikka> 19th century buildings will be awesome/a pain to draw.  I'm not sure which yet.
10:53:31  * peter1138 wonders whatever happened to the idea of multi-tile houses
10:53:34  <peter1138> (more than 2x2
10:53:35  <peter1138> )
10:53:51  <Pikka> newobjects I guess
10:53:57  <peter1138> they smell
10:54:06  <Pikka> I can't see more than 2x2 being useful as a house, anything that size you probably want permanent anyway.
10:54:47  <Pikka> hmm
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10:55:24  <Pikka> still, first things first
10:55:33  <Pikka> dinner then ukrs2
10:56:02  <Arafangion> Nononono.
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10:56:08  <Arafangion> It's "dinner", followed by "more dinner".
10:56:26  <Pikka> where can you tell where dinner ends and more dinner begins?
10:56:31  <Pikka> how can you tell, too?
10:56:41  <Rhamphoryncus> And how!
10:57:05  <Rhamphoryncus> (the less sense that makes the more funny it is)
10:57:10  <Arafangion> Pikka: It's marked by the fact that I have to actually physically move to get it! :)
11:09:25  <andythenorth> peter1138 wonders whatever happened to the idea of multi-tile houses <- you didn't code it?
11:09:54  <peter1138> hah
11:10:00  <andythenorth> is it needed?
11:10:38  <Pikka> I guess 1x3 could sometimes be interesting
11:10:51  <Pikka> hmm
11:10:58  <Pikka> 2x3 private airfield :P
11:12:27  <andythenorth> riverfront park?
11:12:42  <andythenorth> nature reserve?
11:12:58  <andythenorth> out of town shopping mall horrorshow
11:13:09  <peter1138> National Trust industry
11:13:30  <andythenorth> accepts: people; produces: crippling nostalgia?
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11:15:24  <Pikka> ahah
11:15:42  * Pikka has a potential solution to the towns-building-roads problem
11:16:07  <andythenorth> do tell
11:16:14  <Pikka> a building which can always be built
11:16:17  <Pikka> and has 0 population
11:16:21  <Pikka> and is invisible
11:16:29  <Pikka> and is immediately removed via callback 21 :)
11:16:52  <andythenorth> win win
11:16:56  <Pikka> yes
11:17:03  <andythenorth> the road is still there no?
11:17:06  <Pikka> although I have my doubts that that will stop the town building roads
11:17:36  <Pikka> but if it really is the case that "the town builds road if it can't build a building" it might slow it down
11:18:25  <andythenorth> there are 4 eggs here
11:18:28  <andythenorth> pickup eggs
11:18:35  <andythenorth> you are holding 4 eggs
11:18:38  <andythenorth> make omelette
11:18:38  <Pikka> why can't I hold all these eggs?
11:18:49  <andythenorth> "you have won the game"
11:19:34  <Rhamphoryncus> That would lead to brown spots, wouldn't it?
11:19:43  <Pikka> yes
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11:19:55  <Pikka> but the odd brown spot is nothing to be ashamed of
11:20:13  <Rhamphoryncus> That depends.  Is it on an article of clothing?
11:21:04  <Arafangion> And *where*?
11:24:39  <Rhamphoryncus> And how!
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11:32:41  <Rhamphoryncus> oh.. right.. going from 1x freight to 5x freight definitely changes what a grasshopper can pull, heh
11:33:12  <Rhamphoryncus> I'm glad I went with the tunnel rather than going over the hill ;)
11:34:47  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: want to write me a multiprocessing process spawner, pulling tasks from a queue? :P :)
11:36:05  <peter1138> easy?
11:36:21  <Rhamphoryncus> it has a Queue type.  Pool type too
11:36:27  <andythenorth> probly easy :P
11:37:00  * andythenorth is trying to make the code get written in parallel, as well as executed that way :P
11:37:41  <Rhamphoryncus> Sorry, too busy playing with FIRS ;)
11:38:10  <andythenorth> stupid FIRS
11:38:55  <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/bandit/repository/entry/misc/pixel_generator/main.py
11:39:15  <andythenorth> ^ the generate method calls here are embarrassingly parallel
11:40:50  * peter1138 wrote a multithreaded queue processor in c
11:40:55  <peter1138> but that's probably not what you want :p
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11:41:36  <andythenorth> shrug
11:41:50  <andythenorth> if it worked and I didn't have to write it...
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11:56:24  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just let me start 200 processes from the command line, each with a different config file. and let make handle the multithreading
11:56:56  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: very possible
11:57:48  <andythenorth> just make each of the gestalts handle args?
11:58:02  <andythenorth> or create configparser config?
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12:04:28  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just like a c compiler can compile 200 .c files into .o
12:04:51  <smoovi> is somewhere a list where I can see the names of the keys for editing hotkeys.cfg?
12:07:23  <Pikka> hmm
12:07:32  <Pikka> ukrs2 just passed 12345 sprites :]
12:07:48  <Pikka> real + pseudo
12:08:38  <Pikka> only 4737 real sprites
12:08:58  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: CETS is way beyond that :p
12:09:23  <andythenorth> Pikka: next milestone is 123456
12:09:28  <andythenorth> might take longer :P
12:09:33  <Pikka> might do
12:10:09  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so somewhere a list of config files to pass?
12:11:03  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so i call "pixa.py -i <gestalt name> -o <image name>"
12:11:27  <andythenorth> k
12:11:41  <andythenorth> not possible quite yet, but close
12:13:50  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: then it can be handled with a makefile rule like "%.png: gestalts/%.py"
12:14:19  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and the multithreading is handled by calling "make -j<X>"
12:14:44  <Eddi|zuHause> or MAKEOPTS="-j<X>"
12:15:13  <andythenorth> so I need (1) to make pixa handle command line args (2) a makefile...
12:15:58  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't have to make a makefile :)
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12:40:54  <michi_cc> Pikka: Regarding GameScripts, I guess it would be nice if there would be an optional TaI script that e.g. slows town growth down the nearer a town gets to the current limit (additional to the current hard limit, not instead). This way you wouldn't have growth suddenly stop from one tick to the next.
12:41:30  <michi_cc> I don't know offhand if the current GS API would allow to find out the TaI town class, but it is always possible to add things if needed :)
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12:46:09  <andythenorth> michi_cc: what would be the interface definition between GS and TaI?  A set of labels or such?
12:46:27  <andythenorth> town classes?
12:46:31  <andythenorth> town type labels?
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12:48:21  <Illegal_Alien> Harrr
12:49:11  <Pikka> andythenorth: probably the GS can see the same variable the grf uses to decide town class, ie the town's index number?
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12:55:07  <michi_cc> I was more thinking about access to the town persistent storage (http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Storages#Persistent_storage_accessed_by_GRFID), as that already is organzied by GRFID.
12:55:37  <andythenorth> michi_cc: yes I considered that before
12:55:43  <andythenorth> same could be used for industry storage
12:55:48  <michi_cc> But if TaI is really just using the town index, then I believe a GS can already access that.
12:55:48  <andythenorth> it was dismissed as nonsense :P
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12:58:50  <Pikka> I'd say either av8 or TaI need a parameter to reduce the airport infrastructure costs
12:59:00  <Pikka> but that probably comes under the domain of game scripts
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13:00:46  <sponge> gday
13:00:53  <Pikka> howza
13:01:06  <Illegal_Alien> howza?
13:01:17  <Pikka> probabluy
13:01:21  <Pikka> and probably
13:02:02  <sponge> howza is a ok
13:02:14  <Illegal_Alien> riiiiight
13:02:28  * Illegal_Alien back to sleepmode
13:04:28  <Pikka> michi_cc: what is the default airport infrastructure maintenance cost factor?  It's not in the specs.
13:05:58  * Pikka has an old TaI/UKRS test game, I turn on infrastructure maintenance...
13:06:37  *** Enoria [~Enoria@albaldah.dreamhost.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:06:42  <Pikka> I have 12 aircraft, 4 commuter airports, one city and one metro.
13:06:59  <Pikka> 3 million a year aircraft profit, 12 million a year airport infrastructure costs :D
13:07:21  <michi_cc> If you copy an existing layout with prop 0x08, it should be whatever the airport you copy from has.
13:07:27  <NGC3982> :o
13:07:42  <Pikka> yes, but I don't know what those numbers are to adjust them :)
13:07:51  <Pikka> I can't find it written anywhere
13:08:53  <michi_cc> The column before the ATP_TTDP_* in http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1175/
13:09:36  <Pikka> okay
13:09:39  <Pikka> I shall add to http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/AirportTypes :)
13:10:25  <michi_cc> Though I think 12 million cost are quite alright in this case, I very much intended to make airports with just two or three aircraft very expensive :)
13:10:36  <Pikka> yes
13:11:14  <Pikka> yet another way in which the air game is made boring by making the best strategy "grow huge cities on opposite sides of the map and spam the largest aircraft" ;)
13:12:11  <Pikka> the smaller airports could possibly have lower costs, for games of my style at least.  It'll be a parameter, anyway.
13:13:27  <michi_cc> Sure, if you intent to have something that is e.g. not more than a dirt strip, costs (and capacity) should be lower.
13:13:52  <Pikka> yep
13:13:53  <andythenorth> dirt strip airports! :)
13:13:59  <Pikka> av8ports :D
13:14:11  <andythenorth> multi-stop docks!
13:14:12  <andythenorth> :P
13:14:21  <andythenorth> ships!  sink!
13:14:25  <Pikka> those wanting "bigger airports" which can "handle 60 planes at once"... will be disappointed by av8ports. ;)
13:14:29  <michi_cc> We need to finish the airport specs at one point I guess.
13:14:35  <Pikka> it would be nice :)
13:14:36  * andythenorth goes back to things he can do: cargo sprites
13:14:43  <andythenorth> the 'shout features' game rarely works here :P
13:14:45  <Pikka> but for the future
13:14:53  * Pikka has enough to get finished right now :D
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13:19:58  <Pikka> there, added. :)
13:22:10  <andythenorth> ha ha, a big cheatsheet is insane http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2558/cargo_coils_floorplan.png
13:22:36  <Pikka> rather
13:22:56  <peter1138> er what?
13:23:12  <andythenorth> exactly
13:23:55  <andythenorth> I wrote a script that makes each pixel 30x bigger, writes the index number in the middle of the resulting block and saves it as png
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13:30:43  <johnnyc227> Hey
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13:32:55  <planetmaker> how evil, andythenorth
13:33:09  <planetmaker> you kinda shotdown my browser :-(
13:33:16  <andythenorth> sorry
13:33:17  <planetmaker> hi johnnyc227
13:33:18  <andythenorth> firefox?
13:33:21  <planetmaker> ^^
13:33:29  <johnnyc227> lol
13:33:39  <planetmaker> it's still downloading that evilness
13:33:43  <johnnyc227> Hows everyone doing? :D
13:33:46  <andythenorth> it's only 479KB
13:33:47  <andythenorth> :P
13:34:10  <planetmaker> then... it's cought in an endless loop
13:34:36  <johnnyc227> Cup and string internet connection? ;D
13:35:38  <planetmaker> nothing a kill can't solve
13:39:25  <Eddi|zuHause>  <andythenorth> think it might infringe the 'reverse engineering' part of a license agreement? :P <-- german copyright law states that "reverse engineering" parts of licenses are automatically void
13:39:45  <andythenorth> just make sure we get sued in Germany then :)
13:39:58  <TrueBrain> and that they dont take it to EU court
13:40:29  <Eddi|zuHause> mind you, that only applies to programs, not graphics, etc.
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13:56:05  * andythenorth learns lesson: adding params to __init__ after you've written multiple calls to it already, will cause pain
13:56:32  <Eddi|zuHause> give them default values :=)
13:56:42  <andythenorth> thought of that
13:56:50  <andythenorth> will slightly lead to...errors in output :P
13:56:57  <andythenorth> nvm
13:57:04  <andythenorth> code is for rewriting
13:57:16  <andythenorth> cargo generator might be done soon
13:57:23  <andythenorth> apart from I have to go shopping :|
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14:06:59  <andythenorth> vvl
14:07:01  <andythenorth> bbl
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14:17:59  <Belugas> hello
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16:36:04  <sponge> Is there a graphics callback for powered / unpowered vehicles?
16:40:23  <planetmaker> you can make it so
16:40:33  <planetmaker> as railtype change is available
16:41:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i would advise against dropping the power to 0 on railtype change. just chose an unpowered railtype instead
16:42:04  <Eddi|zuHause> way less problems with the pathfinder, etc.
16:43:11  <Eddi|zuHause> the actual question is: what exactly are you trying to achieve?
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16:57:49  <itch> Hello
16:58:42  <itch> Quit question: is there any way I can set the place of tool bar (the one in the upper side of screen) to be aligned left / right instead of center?
17:02:53  <__ln__> i had a patch for that
17:03:19  <itch> Care to share? :D
17:03:23  <bolli> Help!
17:03:32  <bolli> i 've managed to break a remote server...
17:03:41  <bolli> i get this message... Game cannot be unpaused manually; disable pause_on_join/min_active_clients
17:03:46  <bolli> any idea what it means? :|
17:03:51  <itch> Thing is , im using dual display and the bar is riiiight on the middle :(
17:04:37  <__ln__> itch: it's badly outdated, made almost 20000 revisions ago... and i don't remember how well it worked back then. but in any case here it is: http://users.utu.fi/lanurm/ottd/dual-screen-centering.diff
17:04:42  <sponge> Eddi|zuHause: im just trying to have different sprite sets
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17:05:10  <sponge> but i guess thats not important since it only runs on one way of track set: metro
17:05:17  <itch> __ln__, thanks
17:05:24  <sponge> i was also thinking of adding loading/unloading, not sure if its supported
17:05:44  <Ammler> no need of patch, afaik, there is toolbar_pos, isn't?
17:06:23  <Ammler> at least there was, maybe gone :-)
17:07:59  <sponge> Looks like my metro set is complete.
17:08:07  <sponge> Supports real colours, 1cc and 2cc.
17:09:08  <Ammler> this feature availability template on the wiki is silly and will only grow, why not simply write "available since"
17:09:31  <sponge> i was always lacking a good subway in the original train set
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17:19:52  <itch> Ammler, indeed, there is toobar_pos. Whare are the variables for it? ATM is set to 1
17:20:20  <Ammler> @man toolbar_pos
17:20:55  <Ammler> http://wiki.openttd.org/Toolbar_position
17:21:04  <Ammler> KenjiE20: you should put webster in here :-)
17:21:04  <itch> Thanks :)
17:21:56  <Ammler> 0 is default, so you changed it
17:22:16  <Ammler> also it should be available via gui according to the wiki
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17:30:59  <itch> Indeed, it is.
17:31:07  <itch> Thanks for the info
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17:35:28  <itch> Oook,  next question: can I force ottd to go trough ALSA driver under linux? As it is now, it seems that the "music / effects volume" does nothing.
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17:43:57  <NGC3982> http://i.imgur.com/jWzVn.jpg
17:44:03  <Terkhen> hello
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18:44:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24016 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt latvian.txt slovenian.txt):
18:44:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:44:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by OliTTD
18:44:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 35 changes by Parastais
18:44:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: slovenian - 10 changes by Necrolyte
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19:16:15  <Wolf01> hello
19:16:46  <__ln__> ciao
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19:19:45  <NGC3982> is there any way to give another player money?
19:20:15  <Wolf01> paypal
19:20:20  <NGC3982> ;)
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19:30:18  <Terkhen> NGC3982: you can do that at the client list
19:30:35  <Terkhen> you can select it (IIRC) at the beginning of the company list
19:35:07  <NGC3982> Terkhen: thank you!
19:35:13  <Terkhen> yw
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19:42:34  <__ln__> @seen Bjarni
19:42:34  <DorpsGek> __ln__: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 21 weeks, 3 days, 19 hours, 24 minutes, and 33 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
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19:59:53  <buc`afk> Hello
20:00:01  <buc`afk> quick question if anyone has a minute?
20:00:29  <Rubidium> given a nanosecond is 30 centimeters, I don't think I've got a minute
20:01:16  <buc`afk> well i'll give it a go anyway :P
20:01:30  <buc`afk> lots of places create 'crates of goods'
20:01:34  <buc`afk> where do you ship those to?
20:01:43  <buc`afk> towns or??
20:02:12  <Rubidium> exactly to there
20:02:46  <buc`afk> do i do anything with them once they are there?
20:02:57  <buc`afk> ie, cart them into the middle of the town or anything?
20:03:04  <buc`afk> or just TO the town and then job done
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20:12:05  <glx> to a town with a station saying it accepts goods
20:12:27  <glx> it's like any other cargo
20:12:42  <buc`afk> k
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22:09:28  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:16:39  <Eddi|zuHause> "Guess who was hacked today"
22:16:57  <Rubidium> "noone"?
22:17:53  <Eddi|zuHause> "Sony alledgedly lost its entire music catalog of michael jackson, including unreleased material"
22:18:15  <Rubidium> lies...
22:18:27  <Rubidium> if they lost it, it's released
22:18:48  * Rubidium rather sees Spirit being hacked ;)
22:20:26  *** Firartix [~artixds@184.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:20:38  <Eddi|zuHause> "A spokesman for sony admitted the hack on march 4th, but the actual hack happened in april 2011, few weeks after the PSN hack."
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22:31:19  <Terkhen> good night
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23:26:26  <frosch123> night
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