Config
Log for #openttd on 7th March 2012:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:03:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a feeling harddrives get louder over time
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00:14:30  <Rhamphoryncus> Too high wind resistance?
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00:46:51  <xiong> What is the 0 'other' charge?
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02:04:37  <Eddi|zuHause> how does a ~ directory grow to 80000 subdirectories?
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02:37:54  <Rhamphoryncus> Hrm.  Someone told me that a caboose doesn't affect loading/unloading time if it's larger than the station.  It's a lie.  :P
02:40:57  <Rhamphoryncus> A tiny overhang might be tolerable, but it still has an effect
02:41:33  <Eddi|zuHause> that may have been changed in the past
02:41:47  <Rhamphoryncus> ahh
02:42:30  <Rhamphoryncus> My trains are listed as 4.1.  They don't even occupy the preceding block, but it's still enough to maybe double the load/unload time
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03:07:55  <xiong> So who thought up the extra zoom levels?
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06:22:44  <Pikka> what's the difference between a horse?
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07:59:15  <Pikka> allo handy
08:01:33  <andythenorth> peeka boo
08:07:08  <andythenorth> hmm
08:07:12  <andythenorth> do we have minions?
08:07:17  <andythenorth> I could use some minions right now
08:07:25  <Pikka> onion minions
08:07:39  <Pikka> what do you want minions for?
08:07:52  <Pikka> don't you have robotic procedural minions?
08:08:40  <andythenorth> I still have to draw dots on top of templates purposes of locating cargos for
08:09:43  <Pikka> curses
08:11:26  <andythenorth> could be worse :|
08:11:36  <andythenorth> definitely minion worthy
08:11:36  <Pikka> indeed!
08:11:41  <andythenorth> maybe I could crowd source it!
08:11:44  <Pikka> you could be trying to draw a pendodildo
08:12:03  <andythenorth> can't you use the one from BROS?  Now available in range of lengths :P
08:12:05  <Pikka> the crowd doesn't make very good minions in my experience
08:12:17  <Pikka> I haven't actually looked at their sprites lately
08:12:25  <Pikka> maybe I should to bolster my sense of superiority :P
08:12:52  <Pikka> mine only comes in 8/8 though
08:13:06  <andythenorth> changing lengths is the new thing
08:13:37  <Pikka> perhaps one day releasing grfs will be the new thing
08:15:11  * andythenorth will bake a cake that day
08:15:20  <andythenorth> cake 1.0
08:15:26  <Pikka> CAKE
08:15:46  <andythenorth> FISH, CHIPS and CAKE
08:22:21  <Pikka> there
08:22:43  <Pikka> if I make the doors 2cc, I can probably get away with using the same pattern on the voyagers for virgin and cross country :)
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08:50:56  * andythenorth discovers the 'run' commands in his text editor :P
08:51:05  <andythenorth> including the one that opens the .py file in pdb
08:51:13  <andythenorth> how interesting
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09:19:43  <andythenorth> hmm
09:19:49  <andythenorth> moving coils into the right place is boring
09:19:51  <andythenorth> that can wait
09:20:47  <andythenorth> Pikka: got any square tarp loads?
09:21:16  * andythenorth is pondering auto-tarp loads in multiple colours....
09:21:18  <Pikka> yarp
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09:26:44  <Pikka> http://www.pruplethingz.com/junk/itsatarp.png
09:29:38  <andythenorth> ta much
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09:44:34  <peter1138> it's not 32bpp extra zoom!
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09:45:20  <Pikka> that's what you think!
09:54:07  <andythenorth> Pikka: I'm about to apply the viral evil of GPL to your tarps....that ok?
09:54:18  <Pikka> go ahead
09:54:29  <andythenorth> ta
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10:24:21  <lugo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kztNWdhRdnw
10:25:14  <lugo> it's 32bpp!!1 "images not representative to gameplay"
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12:04:34  <Pikka> erlvome back andy
12:04:41  <Pikka> oh no obiwan errors
12:04:45  <Pikka> welcome
12:05:11  <Eddi|zuHause> it's the obiwan convention
12:05:39  <Pikka> urd
12:05:45  <Pikka> or twa
12:06:14  <Eddi|zuHause> what's a zes? :p
12:06:31  <Pikka> oh you europeans and your funny keyboards
12:08:11  <__ln__> oh you australians and your yoghurt trees
12:08:47  <Pikka> they're not my yoghurt trees
12:08:59  <Eddi|zuHause> so... what makes kio_file use 100% cpu and 200kB/s disk access?
12:09:13  <Pikka> hijinks, Eddi|zuHause
12:11:12  <Eddi|zuHause> next time i'm copying whole filesystems instead of 400000 small files in 80000 directories
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13:56:00  <Belugas> hello
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14:07:46  <Pikka> hello Belugas
14:07:52  <Pikka> hello tablecat
14:08:50  <andythenorth> hello iggle piggle
14:09:22  <andythenorth> hello pinky ponk
14:10:47  <Pikka> hello nordic andrew
14:10:59  <Pikka> how goes the load of tarp?
14:11:14  <Belugas> hello Pikka you sir :)
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14:27:53  <andythenorth> Pikka: the tarps are under wraps right now
14:27:54  <andythenorth> on ice
14:28:04  <Pikka> oh, nice.
14:28:05  <andythenorth> baby duties
14:28:19  <andythenorth> we had to interdict a spide
14:28:28  <andythenorth> (that's a small spider btw)
14:28:37  <Pikka> I see!
14:28:51  * Pikka is trying to get back in the zone
14:28:51  <Scuddles> how is babby formed
14:28:57  <Pikka> scuddles shush
14:28:57  <andythenorth> of clay
14:29:14  <Pikka> drew some trains today, got some more to draw... D:
14:29:19  <Pikka> and buses
14:29:22  <Pikka> and houses
14:29:23  <Pikka> and planes
14:29:27  <Pikka> and industries
14:29:27  <Scuddles> the trains were actually buses
14:29:34  <Pikka> then who was phone
14:29:39  <Scuddles> also you draw no plens or INDOOSTROOS
14:29:45  <Scuddles> I was fone
14:29:46  <andythenorth> draw draw draw
14:29:49  * Pikka tea
14:29:54  <Scuddles> pikkaT
14:30:04  <Scuddles> who drinks tea at midnight
14:30:25  <Eddi|zuHause> midnight is at 15:30?
14:30:40  <planetmaker> yup
14:30:56  <Scuddles> probably is at pikkanistan
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14:46:45  <Pikka> it's closer to 1 than midnight, but yes
14:48:10  <Scuddles> EOORL GROOY
14:50:15  <Pikka> lapsang souchong actually
14:52:29  <Belugas> # Two Minutes to miiiiidnight
14:53:50  <Scuddles> filthy gaijin drinking chinese tea
14:54:44  <Pikka> yes
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15:32:52  <Pikka> andythenorth: fertiliser van
15:33:03  <peter1138> shit wagon
15:33:14  <Pikka> should it carry only fert and fmsp, or should it carry goods also?
15:33:30  <Pikka> badum-tish, peter1138
15:33:34  <peter1138> i know right
15:34:35  <Pikka>  /me is thinking goods too... :) means those playing without industry grfs will still have it, for one thing
15:34:40  * Pikka is, is me?
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15:40:45  <Pikka> http://www.flickr.com/groups/leedsrailways/discuss/72157627126861671/ those were the days, eh?
15:47:10  <Scuddles> These sure are some fancy brs
15:47:12  <Scuddles> huehue
15:52:08  <Pikka> BR?
15:53:52  <Pikka> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO2DmTnXlDA
15:57:55  <andythenorth> Pikka: no strong opinion on fertiliser van
15:58:03  <Pikka> ok
15:58:10  <andythenorth> it's a palette wagon...
15:58:14  <andythenorth> stuff on palettes fits in it
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15:58:55  <andythenorth> or pallets :P
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16:00:24  <Pikka> either really
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16:08:16  <Eddi|zuHause> did the forum just die?
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16:09:10  <Pikka> does that answer your question? :)
16:09:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i suppose :)
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16:43:25  * NGC3982 begins his first nml challenge.
16:43:45  <xiong> Well, for my money, you can have a fertilizer wagon... but no refits to it.
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16:46:12  <Pikka> it doesn't hurt to have yet another goods wagon...
16:47:13  <Scuddles> probably a bubblecar refitted to goods
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16:47:27  <Pikka> no bubblecars here
16:50:04  <Pikka> I suppose this means the end of the horsedrawn zeppelin?
16:55:28  <andythenorth> it's always useful to have more ways to carry that descriptive cargo 'goods'
16:55:36  <Pikka> yep
16:56:24  <andythenorth> horsedrawn zeppelin sounds highly plausible
16:56:36  <andythenorth> like a canal boat
16:56:42  <andythenorth> only in the sky
16:56:43  <andythenorth> and massive
16:56:45  <andythenorth> and explosive
16:56:55  <TWerkhoven[l]> that depends on the gas
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17:10:41  <Scuddles> go innawoods with ur bubbelcar
17:11:14  <Pikka> get out you hairy little scotsman
17:12:31  <Pikka> surely you realise it is well past bedtime
17:12:39  <Pikka> goodnight
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18:40:22  <NGC3982> what is the command to set max station spread?
18:40:48  <NGC3982> oh wait
18:41:18  <NGC3982> found it! \o/
18:41:20  <NGC3982> google first, ask later.
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18:42:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd try "set station_spread"
18:42:44  <Eddi|zuHause> or probably "list_settings station"
18:43:20  <NGC3982> station_spread was correct.
18:43:37  <NGC3982> i first tried max_station_spread, t'was defeated, t'was googled.
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19:34:22  <supermop> hi
19:34:25  <Terkhen> hello
19:34:40  <supermop> i want my monorail beams to look smooth, not noisey
19:35:17  <supermop> but that really cuts down on how much i can differentiate different angles with shades of grey
19:36:09  <supermop> so if / looks even a bit too bright, _ and \ are too dark
19:36:21  <supermop> unless i make them essentially the same as /
19:37:19  <supermop> and usually all greys to expand the range doesnt work, as some faces of the beam are cool grey whereas others are warm
19:37:29  <supermop> *using all greys
19:40:02  <andythenorth> 32bpp?
19:42:31  <NGC3982> bah
19:42:47  <NGC3982> i wish i could slow down the time in a server game
19:42:51  <NGC3982> like, a day is a day, etc.
19:43:08  <NGC3982> or at least, a day is a year
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20:07:31  <supermop> 8bpp
20:08:07  <andythenorth> supermop: sometimes the game doesn't differentiate angles very accurately anyway
20:08:59  <andythenorth> if you look at e.g trucks in original TTD, lots of the shading is lies :)
20:09:02  <andythenorth> but it looks good
20:09:40  <supermop> yeah
20:09:59  <supermop> its the looking good part that is trouble
20:10:20  <Rhamphoryncus> ergh.  I just had the idea of using a self-regulating network to service a cluster of 14 farms x_x
20:10:22  <supermop> also in real life most alweg style beams have tire marks on the top
20:10:35  <supermop> not sure if i should include that
20:10:44  <andythenorth> unlikel
20:10:58  <supermop> and i should show concrete aggregate at full ez
20:11:21  <Rhamphoryncus> although that'd require something like 14 dummy, 14 real, and at least a few more to keep things flowing..
20:11:24  <supermop> so as to get noise and more chances for dithering to get subtle shades
20:11:45  <supermop> *if i should...?
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20:14:40  <andythenorth> supermop: full ez completely changes the situation ;)
20:17:55  <supermop> i would rather draw at that scale now that i can and then work backwards to regular zoom
20:18:35  <supermop> but at either size, drawing a good looking concrete beam from four angles is tricky
20:18:50  <supermop> as are the joints of the track
20:19:07  <supermop> as the beam has some non-negligible height
20:20:15  <supermop> so _ to \ will be weird as I assume ottd only lets track itself have a height of zero
20:21:00  <supermop> as an edge that looks good for \ to \ will look bad for _ to \ and vis-versa
20:23:00  <supermop> the original monorails are thin enough and bland enough looking that it doesn't matter
20:24:31  <supermop> can i cheat the caternary to give a real volume to the beam?
20:24:50  <andythenorth> dunno
20:24:52  <andythenorth> try it?
20:25:15  <supermop> or can track have height itself?
20:29:44  <andythenorth> not afaik
20:30:03  <andythenorth> check the spec on railtypes, see if there's a bounding box with z
20:30:11  <supermop> ok
20:30:21  <andythenorth> no alberth today :|
20:30:32  <supermop> work is so annoy - can brain storm things to do but cannot act on them
20:30:48  <supermop> and then all of you guys are asleep when i do have time to draw
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20:31:58  <michi_cc> Bounding box doesn't matter, fact is a train will always be drawn exactly in the middle of the tile, so you can only fake height like in that transrapid trackset out there.
20:32:27  <supermop> i mean at the edges of tiles
20:32:49  <supermop> can a rail tile overlap the tile behind it
20:36:34  <michi_cc> Not really. OpenTTD may draw the tile behind without drawing the front tile.
20:38:00  <supermop> so to get that effect, my monorail track should be drawn as a 'caternary'
20:38:41  <supermop> with some ugly cheated version under incase the user turns caternary invisible
20:40:01  <supermop> ok that might be ok
20:40:47  <supermop> can a railtype be forced to draw fences between tiles of two different rail types?
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20:42:37  <Eddi|zuHause> no, fences are hardcoded
20:43:06  <supermop> ah
20:43:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i had a patch once that changed fences to be removed between any company-owned land (except roads)
20:43:48  <Eddi|zuHause> but nobody really was interested
20:44:52  <supermop> in order to use standard station platforms etc, monorail at grade will need a trench of some kind, present in ttd graphics (not in tto),
20:45:20  <supermop> but it is silly for two parallel track to have two parallel trenches
20:46:04  <supermop> one wide trench would be better
20:46:34  <supermop> if the 'step up' from trench to ground were drawn as a fence,
20:46:52  <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%202.%20Mai%201988.png
20:47:26  <supermop> then adjacent tracks would share a trench,
20:48:00  <supermop> but you would still need the step-up 'fence' between monorail and regular rail
20:48:58  <Eddi|zuHause> that's basically the same problem as combined catenary poles or dual track tunnels/bridges
20:49:16  *** lmergen [~lmergen@5352EA70.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd
20:49:51  <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2026.%20Apr%201988.png <- "before"
20:51:13  <supermop> so it would need a patch?
20:51:32  <supermop> yeah i remember your patch for fences
20:51:45  <supermop> was suprised that it didn't go anywhere
20:51:58  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: i don't think fences are the right approach for your problem
20:53:10  <supermop> well, there is still the need to create the illusion of a trench in an essentially flat tile
20:54:04  <supermop> that or allow stations, signals, curves, et al, on bridges, and only allow monorail to be built as a bridge and never at grade
20:54:26  <Eddi|zuHause> why? if your "rail" is only a few pixels high, no problems should be visible
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20:54:45  <supermop> it needs to be deep too,
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20:54:59  <Eddi|zuHause> not really sure what you're trying to do
20:55:05  <Wolf01> 'nothing
20:55:26  <supermop> to keep the platform hight the same as a regular train, you need a lot of free space below grade,
20:55:58  <supermop> many monorail trains extend about as far below their floor as above
20:56:19  <__ln__> Wolf01: '
20:56:25  <supermop> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tama_monorail
20:57:00  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I remember that patch.  I liked it :)
20:57:05  <andythenorth> but I don't have commit rights :P
20:57:23  <andythenorth> for reasons that elude me, but could probably be written into tablets of stone and left unchanged
20:57:40  <supermop> can take a little bit of artistic livery with that, but it would be silly if the lower portion was only as high as the bogies on a regular train
20:58:56  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... need inspiration for a riddle...
20:59:08  <Eddi|zuHause> making a riddle, not solving
20:59:26  <supermop> ogfx/ttdgfx solve this with the fake trench
21:00:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i liked the TTO monorail without trench much better
21:01:57  <NGC3982> what on earth is wrong with people
21:02:11  <NGC3982> this KONY 2012 thing is exceeding the gettings of my nerve.
21:02:46  <Eddi|zuHause> what's a KONY 2012?
21:03:05  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: riddle me this: what do you call deer with no eyes?
21:03:37  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: a over hyped project on "helping uganda" is spreading like a fire trough social medias, and people giving money to "charity".
21:05:57  <supermop> i liked the tto monorail and bridge
21:06:34  <NGC3982> an*
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21:11:28  <supermop> i feel like i've discussed monorails with you previously, eddi
21:20:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i discuss lots of thigns...
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21:43:07  <NGC3982> hm, my server tells me i cant change wagon speed limits during network game
21:43:20  <NGC3982> do i need to save, change it in single player and then load?
21:43:24  <planetmaker> yup
21:43:29  <NGC3982> i see, thanks.
21:56:13  <Rhamphoryncus> Woo, such a clever feeder system I made.. that completely fails to keep up with even the current low load
21:57:53  <__ln__> http://xkcd.com/949/ so sad
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22:14:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure that's a conspiracy of the contentmafia
22:15:52  *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has quit [Quit: Popidopidopido]
22:15:52  <__ln__> but there are technical reasons, especially with the ever increasing use of NAT.
22:15:56  <Wolf01> 'night all
22:16:02  *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host242-239-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
22:16:57  <frosch123> night
22:16:59  *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d009dd5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:17:18  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: that's what THEY want you to believe
22:17:45  <Terkhen> good night
22:17:49  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: ipv6 is like 20 years old already
22:18:13  <Eddi|zuHause> there's also UPNP and stuff
22:19:00  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: btw that comic left out things like teamviewer :)
22:20:29  <__ln__> i think teamviewer transfers stuff through their servers, so it's not very practical with a lot of data.
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22:35:30  * andythenorth wonders
22:35:50  <andythenorth> when doing for [pixels] in a PIL image
22:36:10  <andythenorth> then drawing in the image, whether the scan is restarted
22:36:31  * andythenorth hopes not
22:38:36  <Eddi|zuHause> in general, when iterating, modifying the underlying structure is a big no-no
22:39:02  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: can you paste an example?
22:39:17  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: not trivially
22:39:20  <Eddi|zuHause> so make a copy, and iterate over that
22:39:31  <andythenorth> I am considering that
22:39:36  <andythenorth> everything works currently
22:39:48  <Eddi|zuHause> it's the only solution, not much to consider...
22:40:05  <Rhamphoryncus> Ahh, that's what you mean.  You're iterating over a PIL image while modifying it
22:40:15  <andythenorth> yes
22:40:20  <andythenorth> it works fine
22:40:24  <andythenorth> but it's rather slow
22:40:48  <Rhamphoryncus> I would expect that it's allowed in the same way lists are.  Mildly discouraged, easy to screw up, but not inherently wrong
22:41:08  <Rhamphoryncus> Iterating pixels in python is going to be slow
22:41:12  <andythenorth> yup
22:41:30  <andythenorth> it's fine for one pass, it's when I stack passes (repeating the scan) that it slows
22:41:41  <andythenorth> I could scan once, then draw multiple passes
22:42:02  <andythenorth> certainly 'scan, then draw' seems safer than 'draw whilst scanning'
22:45:30  <andythenorth> hmm
22:45:45  <andythenorth> I'd need to be able to call rescan() or such on demand
22:45:51  <andythenorth> meh, optimisation :P
22:48:18  <Rhamphoryncus> Makes me wonder if your repeated scanning is making it quadratic
22:49:27  <andythenorth> could be
22:49:57  <Rhamphoryncus> to which the obvious but useless reply is: don't do that
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22:51:59  <andythenorth> let's run some times...
22:52:58  <andythenorth> hmm
22:53:12  <andythenorth> drawing whilst scanning, or drawing post scan, times are same
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23:01:33  <andythenorth> hmm
23:01:56  <andythenorth> simply cutting the number of times the image is scanned cuts render time
23:02:08  <andythenorth> as expected :P
23:05:45  <Mazur> Everyone underestimates the bandwidth of a truckload of tapes.
23:06:02  <andythenorth> on a higway
23:06:07  <andythenorth> at 65mph
23:06:21  <Mazur> Even on a backroad at 15 mph.
23:06:52  <Mazur> And I'm using "tapes" only as a tribute to hte original quote.
23:07:06  <Mazur> Make it USB sticks, for all I care.
23:07:12  *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-009-231.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit []
23:08:10  <Mazur> And that is how the pioneers used to do it.
23:08:40  <andythenorth> hmm
23:08:51  * andythenorth is going to have fun times optimising :(
23:09:01  <Mazur> Good luck.
23:09:40  * andythenorth optimises for sleep
23:09:44  <andythenorth> good night
23:09:52  *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
23:11:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Mazur: driving around a usb stick is my usual mode of transferring larger amounts of data
23:12:06  <Eddi|zuHause> takes half an hour to fill it, and another half hour to drive over to my friend, then fill it there for half an hour and drive half an hour back
23:13:04  <Eddi|zuHause> total transferred: tx: 8GB, rx: 8GB, in 2 hours. waaay faster than my DSL menthol...
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23:25:41  <Mazur> Eddi|zuHause, which is why I was quoting that old quote.
23:27:17  <Mazur> No idea who said it first, but a lot of people know it, apparently.
23:28:25  <Mazur> Oh, possibly Dennis Ritchie, I see in one place.
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23:30:29  <Mazur> http://www.bpfh.net/sysadmin/never-underestimate-bandwidth.html
23:30:34  * Mazur grins.
23:32:06  <Mazur> Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway. —Tanenbaum, Andrew S. (1996)
23:32:12  <Mazur> Good old Andy.
23:34:04  <Mazur> The original version of this quotation came much earlier; the very first problem in Tanenbaum's 1981 textbook Computer Networks asks the student to calculate the throughput of a St. Bernard carrying floppy disks (which are said to hold 250 kilobytes of data).
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23:59:20  <bloopletech> Is it ok to ask about installation questions here?

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