Config
Log for #openttd on 28th March 2012:
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07:06:22  <dihedral> greetings
07:07:32  <dihedral> <michi_cc> [28 Mar 2012 - 01:09:32] Most of the design pattern crowd seems to forget that there's more than just object oriented programming, and obviously OOP is always the best thing in the world (Java, I'm looking at you :) <- each and every language has its use... even erlang, perl, tcl ....
07:12:37  <planetmaker> ..., whitespace, brainfuck, ...
07:13:37  <blathijs> Those languages at least serve the purpose of making discussions like these more interesting ;-p
07:17:51  <planetmaker> :-) quite true
07:18:24  <planetmaker> ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
07:27:41  <xiong> I might have been interested in this interesting discussion if my connection had not been down and up for the last two weeks.
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07:48:28  <dihedral> planetmaker, whitespace has its use: namely when you need to write an exam at school ... on paper! :-D
07:49:24  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: what's 65, 91, 98, 98, 101, 29, 80, 101, 104, 98, 90, 30, 9?
07:49:56  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I pasted the complete "Hello World" programme there
07:50:40  <planetmaker> or wiki is wrong ;-)
07:51:08  <Eddi|zuHause> it's easily possible i miscalculated :)
07:51:43  <Eddi|zuHause> but 29 and 30 don't seem right
07:52:00  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what 9 is
07:52:24  <Eddi|zuHause> wouldn't that be tab?
07:53:15  <planetmaker> ascii 0x09 is tab iirc, yes
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08:44:47  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/brainfuck.py <-- seems to work correctly. i probably miscounted or something
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08:45:20  <Eddi|zuHause> > python ~/brainfuck.py ~/helloworld.bf
08:45:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Hello World!
08:45:55  <Eddi|zuHause> beware: my loop implementation may be buggy
08:47:37  <CornishPasty> What's your helloworld.bf look like Eddi|zuHause ?
08:47:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i need to rethink my handling of while(0)
08:47:53  <Eddi|zuHause> CornishPasty: from the wiki page. or what planetmaker posted above
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08:48:31  <CornishPasty> Ah right lol
08:51:38  <Eddi|zuHause> new version with hopefully improved loop behaviour
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08:54:37  <planetmaker> lol, Eddi|zuHause :-)
08:57:05  * Rhamphoryncus thinks we should have a callback to change cargo ageing and payment.. then finds out they already exist
08:57:28  <Eddi|zuHause> yah, i thought of that first :)
08:57:37  <Rhamphoryncus> :)
08:57:42  <Eddi|zuHause> (but i did not implement it)
08:57:46  <Rhamphoryncus> Has anybody played with it yet?
08:58:27  <Eddi|zuHause> not really. it's only few months old, no released newgrf uses it yet, afaik
08:58:33  <Rhamphoryncus> ahh alright
08:58:43  * Rhamphoryncus sees FIRS hacks in his future
08:59:22  <Eddi|zuHause> variable cargo aging is a vehicle set feature, not an industry set feature
08:59:32  <Rhamphoryncus> .. what?
08:59:43  <Rhamphoryncus> Oh, it's for boats and such?
08:59:55  <Eddi|zuHause> for example
09:00:03  <planetmaker> not quite true. OpenGFX+ Trains uses it for refrigerator wagons
09:00:16  <Rhamphoryncus> ahh interesting
09:04:28  <Rhamphoryncus> Well, the only reason I was considering cargo ageing was to extend the time I have to work with, but it's minor
09:04:32  <Eddi|zuHause> reuploaded. now with license.
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09:22:18  <CQ> is there a way to get signals for both directions on one square?
09:22:38  <Nat_aS> ???
09:22:41  <Nat_aS> like you mean normal signals?
09:22:47  <Nat_aS> or path signals?
09:23:50  <Eddi|zuHause> CQ: you never ever want such a signal combination
09:26:07  <CQ> i have a circular track, and am thinknig about having trains go both ways on it...
09:33:38  <planetmaker> I suggest you simply read up on the signal types
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09:36:44  <CQ> planetmaker: I have, twice, and I still dont get it completely.
09:37:01  <CQ> the signals always show if a path to the next stopping point is clear
09:37:11  <CQ> at least the ones I'm using
09:37:50  <planetmaker> do they?
09:38:05  <planetmaker> I think they show whether the next block is clear or they show red
09:39:30  <CQ> I thought block was stopping point, i.e. a signal or a station
09:39:42  <Eddi|zuHause> CQ: so when you have two signals on the same tile, you will have trains waiting on both sides until the other side clears, which will never happen, because there are no switches inbetween
09:44:19  <CQ> Eddi|zuHause: true... guess I need to rethink the design a little then,,,
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10:15:10  <ffpp> hi, I need some advice:  I have a data structure (GuiList) which contains const pointers. At some point I want to retrieve one of those and need to use and change the pointed-to-obj. So I did a cast to a non-const pointer of the same obj type (\n)
10:16:17  <ffpp> ... I just make a pastebin
10:21:28  <ffpp> paste: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/572455/
10:22:06  <ffpp> question: isn't this stupid as I modify the same object in both cases anyway ? Only the way to retrieve it has changed and this just tricks out the compiler warning
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10:32:16  <Rhamphoryncus> Well, you shouldn't be casting away const, so..
10:32:56  <ffpp> so what ? both ways are stupid ?
10:33:20  <Rhamphoryncus> The second is slightly better, if uglier
10:34:23  <Rhamphoryncus> "I never modify it, except in this one particular case.." is a deep problem with the const model
10:35:49  <Rhamphoryncus> Off hand.. if you're storing a pointer it probably shouldn't be const.  const works best for transient uses, ie you pass it to a function that doesn't modify it
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10:36:28  <ffpp> in general it shouldn't be a semantic problem to modify templatevehicles, but in this one case I need to retrieve the tv to modify by looking at the selected index, so the 2nd way is just cleaner to retrieve it
10:37:36  <ffpp> the general usage of openttd seems to be to store const pointers into the GuiList templates, thats why I went with it in the first place
10:38:24  * Rhamphoryncus nods
10:38:44  <Rhamphoryncus> I can't speak for openttd's style choices.  I wasn't there when they happened :)
10:39:46  <ffpp> Why not, rhamphoryncus sounds like a create which existed a long time ago :)
10:40:48  <Rhamphoryncus> Well yes, but there was that pesky extinction in the middle while all the interesting stuff happened
10:41:15  <ffpp> how come you're helping out right now, then ? jurassic park ?
10:41:56  <Rhamphoryncus> Good question
10:42:37  <planetmaker> capability to fly helps with escapes ;-)
10:43:20  <ffpp> I once knew all the queer dinosaur names - profession of choice then: 'dinosaur expert'. good times :)
10:44:06  <ffpp> thanks btw, I'm going with the 2nd way then, seems to be feasible
10:44:32  <Rhamphoryncus> huh, there's a usage of "queer" you don't hear much these days
10:44:53  <peter1138> how queer
10:45:10  * peter1138 is also happy & gay
10:45:40  <ffpp> I thought it means strange or something along that line, not gay
10:46:13  <peter1138> both words with multiple meanings, these days
10:47:51  * V453000 is also beer
10:48:14  <Rhamphoryncus> ffpp: that's the original meaning
10:49:32  <ffpp> and it is at the top of the list in the dictionary
10:50:13  <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, but dictionaries don't reflect common usage ;)
10:50:47  <Rhamphoryncus> The derogatory form became the dominant one, then more recently it's been reclaimed by the gay community
10:51:43  <ffpp> in all english speaking countries or only GB or the US ?
10:54:39  <Rhamphoryncus> I'm canadian so I'd say north america.  I can't speak for GB
10:55:18  <Rhamphoryncus> I'm pretty sure there's some of it there too, but I don't know how much
10:56:18  <ffpp> hm, I actually learned the word on a north american sports forum, didn't seem like it was used with the gay meaning, maybe I got it wrong
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10:59:07  <Rhamphoryncus> Unless there's a significant presence from the gay community I'd be surprised if it wasn't derogatory
11:01:55  <ffpp> especially in sports talks
11:02:57  <Rhamphoryncus> yeah
11:05:40  <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/brainfuck.py <-- i think my loop handling is finally correct now
11:08:04  * Rhamphoryncus goes to look, then realizes the file name and decides not
11:13:17  <Rhamphoryncus> although.. if notch can embed a language in his next game.. if I make a game I should embed brainfuck in it.  Just to fuck with peoples' brains :)
11:15:58  <ffpp> use it as ai-scripting language
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11:16:27  <CornishPasty> How would that... I don't even
11:16:36  <CornishPasty> We need a language that can compile down to bf
11:21:06  <Rhamphoryncus> I figure that would happen eventually
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11:35:45  <CQ> how do you get rid of an appaling rating in a town without bribing? I have one station there and can't build anything...
11:40:10  <ffpp> plant lots of trees
11:40:42  <ffpp> or deliver into or out of that town
11:42:08  <planetmaker> or just wait
11:42:36  <CQ> I can't deliver since I have no stations there
11:43:20  <planetmaker> wait or plant trees. Only the firs tree planted on a tile counts.
11:43:37  <planetmaker> As you can't get worse, it might help to kill more trees in advance to this endeavour
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11:44:03  <planetmaker> but only tiles 15 tiles away from town centre count
11:44:18  <planetmaker> thus doens't work for large cities
11:45:37  <CQ> ok, thanks ... does it make sense for vehicles to have the hangar / dock / depot in their route, or do they go automaticaly if servicing is needed?
11:45:55  <Eddi|zuHause> yes and yes
11:46:25  <Eddi|zuHause> if you put the depot in the orders, they will never try to go to a different depot
11:46:38  <Eddi|zuHause> which may help with trains getting lost
11:46:38  <ffpp> especially for trains, which can't just change direction at will it makes sense to have a depot along every (long) route
11:47:10  <Eddi|zuHause> also, you may force the depot visit while the trains are empty then
11:47:25  <Eddi|zuHause> so the cargo is delivered as fast as possible
12:02:35  <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=410631152299677&set=a.223098324386295.105971.205344452828349&type=1&ref=nf
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12:44:58  <MNIM> "Step 1: Go to scripting website/room/ etc. Step 2: Pretend you're an air-headed, yet sexy blonde single 19 year old girl who is just so "desperate" to get the script working. Step 3: ????  Step 4: Profit!!!"
12:45:09  <MNIM> you're a bunch of coders, right.
12:45:13  <MNIM> would that work here?
12:45:41  <MNIM> especially if "Will show booby pics if helped"
12:45:58  <MNIM> I sincerely doubt it, but somebody said that works with coders. :P
12:47:41  <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: if you believe that, you'd also believe that there are actual lesbians in #lesbians
12:48:01  <MNIM> lol
12:49:00  <MNIM> wait, there's an actual channel #lesbians on this network?
12:49:08  * MNIM checks
12:49:11  <MNIM> ...nope
12:49:14  * MNIM baps.
13:01:30  <dihedral> ...
13:01:34  <dihedral> interesting!
13:01:55  <MNIM> what's interesting?
13:02:03  <dihedral> do the pics sell? if they do, she can sell them and i'll take the cash :-D
13:02:25  <dihedral> ... for gpl released code :-D
13:02:43  <MNIM> lol
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14:00:46  <Belugas> hello
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15:12:45  <andythenorth> hello
15:13:27  * andythenorth is all work and no play
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15:40:10  * ffpp wants to use testing as excuse for playing but frequent changes to the saveload code prevent any longterm fun
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15:41:07  * Rubidium wonders what he's missing
15:42:07  <ffpp> only patch stuff :)
15:42:20  <Rubidium> oh, but then it's your own fault ;)
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15:43:46  <andythenorth> it's fun that such a massive hack to get 'stations over roads' is so popular :D
15:43:51  <andythenorth> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=58884&start=100
15:45:31  <V453000> oh, the cars can really drive on that?
15:46:27  <ffpp> http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=157898  << the things people build in this game ... so much attention to detail
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15:54:05  <andythenorth> lo Pikka le bird
15:54:11  <Pikka> lo bob
15:54:42  <andythenorth> beebl
15:54:51  <Pikka> how rare
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15:56:32  <Terkhen> hello
15:57:26  <andythenorth> Pikka: so is it done?
15:57:30  <andythenorth> mine aren't :|
15:57:37  <Pikka> which?
15:57:40  <Pikka> the road vehicles?
15:57:42  <Pikka> not at all
15:57:54  <andythenorth> what about the choo choos?
15:58:07  <Pikka> yup, they're done
15:58:15  <Pikka> and the nyow nyows
15:58:18  <andythenorth> what about....the industries?
15:58:22  <Pikka> nope
15:58:23  <andythenorth> all the industry sets suck
15:58:28  * andythenorth wants a new industry set
15:59:45  <Pikka> people don't like my industry set much
16:00:00  <Pikka> either the stockpiling sucks, or it doesn't have enough fancy new cargos
16:02:07  <andythenorth> I like it
16:02:12  <andythenorth> I just played it to death :P
16:02:22  <andythenorth> mine is rubbish
16:02:36  *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A88F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
16:02:42  <andythenorth> too big, too complicated, too unfinishe
16:03:08  <Belugas> thus...
16:03:10  <Belugas> +d
16:03:11  <Belugas> ;)
16:03:22  <TrueBrain> must ... not .. make .... easy .... " that's what she said " joke ....
16:04:43  <andythenorth> also
16:04:44  <andythenorth> http://dreamsongs.com/Files/PatternsOfSoftware.pdf
16:05:25  <Pikka> andy: I'm considering a production feedback mechanism for mines
16:05:37  <andythenorth> tell
16:05:39  <Pikka> but probably just using goods rather than a special cargo
16:05:55  <andythenorth> goods covers all sins
16:06:01  <andythenorth> how about 'people' too? :P
16:06:06  <Pikka> I haven't worked out the details yet :)  but I definitely want to replace the standard random production changes mechanism and make it more interesting
16:06:13  <Pikka> interesting for me, anyway
16:06:16  <Pikka> :)
16:08:24  <andythenorth> will it be evil?
16:08:30  <Belugas> evil is good
16:08:40  *** andythenorth is now known as bad_pikka
16:08:55  <Pikka> I don't know
16:09:03  <Pikka> "more predictable" probably isn't evil
16:09:43  <Belugas> evil always gives some spice to life :)
16:09:56  <Pikka> industries suddenly halving production for no apparent reason is "evil", but also default behaviour and annoying
16:11:02  <Pinkbeast> Part of the trouble here seems to be that the demand of every consumer is infinite, which ought to make those stockpiles work better...
16:11:34  <Pikka> part of what trouble?
16:12:14  <planetmaker> welcome to "smooth economy". And also 'hello' :-)
16:12:20  <Pinkbeast> Well, the way vanilla OTTD lets you route all the coal on the map to one power station on the other side of the world.
16:13:41  <bad_pikka> why is that trouble?
16:13:44  <bad_pikka> that is correct behaviour
16:17:06  <bad_pikka> also...YACD has been updated to compile with recent trunk apparently ;)
16:17:46  <jazzyjaffa> Yes :)
16:17:58  *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
16:18:53  <jazzyjaffa> Although I haven't fixed the subsidy bit yet.
16:19:31  <Pikka> hmm
16:20:31  <Pikka> I might do the calcutta and one futuristic plane in this release of av8, just so it balances out the 3-column vehicle list picture
16:20:37  <Pikka> is that OCD?
16:21:02  <Pikka> just the calcutta would do I think
16:21:13  <Pikka> not that anyone will ever use it
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16:22:10  <Pikka> I've often thought when making vehicle sets that I should just make the 5 biggest/most powerful vehicles and not bother with the rest, since that's all anyone ever uses.
16:27:20  <bad_pikka> not OCD
16:27:21  <bad_pikka> correct
16:27:33  <bad_pikka> you also need to make one small one
16:27:52  <bad_pikka> hmm
16:28:03  <bad_pikka> maybe that's why HEQS is so relatively popular
16:28:15  <bad_pikka> it just adds biggest possible truck for any year
16:28:29  <Pikka> :]
16:28:57  <bad_pikka> I've cut most of the small trucks from BANDIT :P
16:29:01  <Pikka> well, the calcutta is not only very small, but it's a seaplane, so until newairports it's pretty useless.
16:29:12  <bad_pikka> I'm leaving in the massive roadtrains which can be refitted to...smaller :P
16:29:14  <Pikka> yay :P
16:29:38  <Pikka> I can't imagine many people will want to play HQOVS without BANDIT
16:29:48  <Pikka> "WHY ARE THERE NO TRUCKS UNTIL 1930?!?!"
16:29:58  <bad_pikka> mine currently run out in 1963 or so :P
16:30:06  <bad_pikka> I am awaiting canadian imports
16:30:16  <Pikka> mm, canadian improts
16:30:32  <bad_pikka> maple syrup?
16:30:38  <Pikka> fancy
16:30:53  * bad_pikka has been pondering food industry chain
16:30:56  <V453000> I've often thought when making vehicle sets that I should just make the 5 biggest/most powerful vehicles and not bother with the rest, since that's all anyone ever uses. <- solution to that is to make every vehicle the strongest one in its era ;)
16:31:04  <bad_pikka> oranges -> orange juice :P
16:31:21  <bad_pikka> eggs -> custard
16:31:49  <bad_pikka> blood -> black pudding
16:32:54  *** bad_pikka is now known as andythenorth
16:33:03  <Pikka> blood + white bits -> black pudding
16:34:33  <Pikka> V453000: exactly, that produces much the same result.
16:35:49  <V453000> partially, it gives more vehicles that "everyone uses"
16:35:56  <Pikka> if I left out all the aircraft in av8 which were not bigger than everything that came before, av8 would contain 8 vehicles
16:36:08  <andythenorth> where do 'white bits' come from?
16:36:25  <Pikka> from ripping yarns, andythenorth
16:36:28  <glx> polo
16:36:30  <andythenorth> also 8 vehicles in av8 is pretty nice
16:36:39  <glx> oups wrong chan
16:36:43  <andythenorth> no no
16:36:49  <andythenorth> it made perfect sense in this context
16:37:13  <andythenorth> input: sugar, holes; output: polo mints
16:37:39  <Pikka> HP42, Constellation, Stratocruiser, Brittania, DC8, 747, A380 and JTech, that's "pretty nice"?
16:39:02  <Pikka> but join any multiplayer server running av8 and I guarantee those are the only aircraft you'll see
16:39:15  <Belugas> burp
16:39:24  <V453000> well Pikka you can reduce the power of those 5 or increase the power of the others
16:39:28  <V453000> to get more effectively
16:39:57  <Pinkbeast> ot the most powerful/fast available...
16:40:03  <Pinkbeast> Oh, darn it
16:40:14  * Pinkbeast used the UKRS1 0-6-0, 2-6-4T, 0-8-0 (after the 2-8-0), 4-6-0, Pacific, 2-8-0 (after the 9F), AL6, C321, 5AT all after they were  not the most powerful/fast available.
16:40:37  <Pikka> I'm not really complaining :)  there are plenty of uses for the smaller aircraft
16:40:39  <Pinkbeast> ... but the OTTD mechanics do rather militate against it
16:40:46  <Pikka> it all depends on other grfs used, playstyle, etc
16:40:59  <Pikka> and cargo destinations will make a difference too
16:42:11  <Pinkbeast> Most cargod?st schemes seem to give a role to light trains (for eg FIRS supplies) but ensure every passenger train/plane/RV will always be the hugest available.
16:42:21  <V453000> yes, UKRS has the choices for player done the best way from all train newGRFs at the moment
16:43:14  <jazzyjaffa> Pinkbeast: Isn't that partly due to the massive amount of pax that towns currently generate?
16:43:44  <Pinkbeast> Well, it's not so massive if they only want to go on one trip (in a not-cargod?st world)
16:44:28  <Pinkbeast> Oh, and the A4 even after the Merchant Navy from the addons set because bleh, Bulleid.
16:44:57  <jazzyjaffa> I can see a role for smaller pax services if town pax production/growth is tweaked a bit - maybe some towns shouldn't grow (green belts? :D )
16:46:10  <Pikka> TaI houses limit town growth, and I believe there are also gamescripts if you'd rather do it that way
16:46:48  <jazzyjaffa> I'm doing some profiling of yacd to understand what's happening CPU usage wise. As always with this stuff the problem is that for detailed profiling you have to turn off inlining - but without inlining performance is different.
16:48:35  <Rhamphoryncus> During the money maker phase picking a cheap aircraft can work well.  That only lasts for 3 or 4 aircraft though
16:49:20  <andythenorth> which makes more money, two 25t trucks, or one 50t truck?  Assume total run / purchase cost is same
16:49:34  <andythenorth> also speed, power
16:49:35  <Rhamphoryncus> 25t
16:49:45  <Rhamphoryncus> Shorter period without one loading
16:50:11  <andythenorth> but twice as many breakdowns...?
16:50:22  <Rhamphoryncus> I'm guessing cargo doesn't age while the vehicle is loading, but I haven't verified it
16:50:26  <Rhamphoryncus> What's a breakdown?
16:52:26  <andythenorth> the first 25t delivery will arrive before the first 50t delivery
16:52:36  <andythenorth> so break-even comes sooner
16:52:50  <Pikka> Rhamphoryncus: if the cargo available is so little that a massive plane will spend a month each time waiting to pick up, then the smaller plane is clearly a better option.  but of course, with normal OpenTTD town growth and a 2048* map, the supply of passengers is practically unlimited
16:52:51  <andythenorth> so interest on debt is lower
16:53:27  <Pikka> I only play 256* maps, and with a small number of low-growth towns, my aircraft fleet is mainly 737s and ERJs.
16:53:40  <Rhamphoryncus> Shorter period without loading -> higher station rating -> higher volume -> more money
16:53:45  <michi_cc> jazzyjaffa: http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/YACD-gameloop.png
16:54:03  <jazzyjaffa> michi_cc: Yeah I saw that, thats with inlining on right?
16:54:08  <Rhamphoryncus> But if you mean 20 25t trucks vs 10 50t trucks then it's insignificant
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16:54:59  <jazzyjaffa> michi_cc: BTW, nice patch, really easy to understand what is going on.
16:55:06  <Rhamphoryncus> Pikka: I mean literally the first 3 or 4 aircraft built in a game.  After that you might as well switch to the 747 or whatever's best at the time
16:55:16  <michi_cc> I'm not totally sure, but I think yes. I also had one with inline disabled just in the Yapf part of YACD, but I think the image isn't from that.
16:55:21  <andythenorth> is 10 50t trucks vs 1 500t truck significant?
16:55:33  <Pikka> Rhamphoryncus: why, if your airports aren't producing enough passengers to fill a 747?
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16:56:01  <Pikka> but I realise the way most people play openttd, supply of passengers is not an issue
16:56:04  <Rhamphoryncus> a single truck is going to leave the station without anything loading
16:56:16  <Rhamphoryncus> Pikka: well, maybe if you're focusing on pax the entire game
16:56:40  <Rhamphoryncus> I usually focus on trains and throw in planes/boats/trucks just for flavour
16:57:10  * andythenorth is fooling with an argument about continuous (single piece) flow versus largest possible batch size :P
16:57:21  <andythenorth> unless you're a production geek, it might not be interesting :P
16:57:51  <Pinkbeast> Rhamp: Well, there isn't much you can move with aircraft besides pax. Not nothing, but not a lot.
16:57:58  <jazzyjaffa> michi_cc: My main thought is that the penalties due to waiting cargo are making the pf explore more of the network than is desirable. (although they are a needed part of the algorithm to make it work well)
16:58:18  <Pikka> Pinkbeast: except anything
16:58:23  <Pikka> especially with refitting orders
16:58:35  <Rhamphoryncus> Pinkbeast: I've largely avoided pax lately, other than token efforts to pacify towns.  Still haven't tried YACD
16:59:13  <Pikka> I found in my latest test games that the B1900 is a very good for valuables connections
16:59:21  <andythenorth> YACD rocks.  It also eats battery, and has some unfortunate edge cases :D
17:00:00  <Pikka> TaI towns also produce a lot of mail, so I find flying goods in and mail out quite profitable
17:00:12  <michi_cc> Many things make the PF slow, but ultimately A* is simply not the best algorithm for packet routing.
17:00:21  <andythenorth> Pikka: refitting :o
17:00:22  <Rhamphoryncus> Pikka: huh, haven't tried that
17:00:37  <andythenorth> Pikka: are you sure you're not DHL?
17:00:55  <Pikka> ja
17:01:13  <Pikka> also, the A400 kicks serious cargo backside
17:01:27  <Pikka> 120 crates / 60t out of small airports at 480mph :)
17:01:43  <jazzyjaffa> michi_cc: Yes, but I see why you started with this approach given the structure of the gameloop
17:02:39  <Rhamphoryncus> Pikka: what other things could be used to give aircraft tradeoffs?  Different cargo specialities?  Flight speed vs airport density (all aircraft take the same space regardless of capacity)?
17:03:22  <andythenorth> it's kind of the same as trucks: not a lot can be done
17:03:25  <Pikka> newairports will make a big difference.  it will be good to have granularity beyond "small" and "large"
17:04:06  <Rhamphoryncus> I've been meaning to use more of the coal trucks
17:04:07  <Pikka> at the moment, there's no airports you can operate a pc12 out of that you can't operate a 737 out of
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17:04:35  <ffpp> "YACD rocks."   <<  how is it compared to CargoDist, performance-wise and other ?
17:05:02  <andythenorth> plane/airport situation is somewhat equivalent to truck/roadtypes situation
17:05:09  <Rhamphoryncus> Pikka: and the ability to scale up the airport.  Sufficient runways and you can pick flight speed over cargo capacity
17:05:53  <Pikka> well, unlikely
17:06:43  <Pikka> "speed vs capacity" isn't a thing in the real world any more than the "range vs capacity" that some people suggested
17:06:52  <Terkhen> ffpp: performance-wise I don't know; cargodist is updated and it uses distribution, YACD is outdated and uses destinations
17:07:00  <Pikka> the biggest aircraft tend to be the fastest anyway, just like the biggest aircraft tend to have the longest range
17:07:05  <Rhamphoryncus> Who cares about the real world?  I want a fun game :P
17:07:31  <Pikka> well, if you want to create a "fun" grf with illogical stats, no-one's stopping you.
17:08:05  <Rhamphoryncus> So what's the real tradeoff?  Cost, obviously, and having enough volume to justify the size?
17:08:23  <Pikka> volume and airport capabilities
17:08:26  <Chris_Booth> Rhamphoryncus: or just go nuts! make everything super small
17:08:41  <andythenorth> and noise
17:08:47  <andythenorth> runway length
17:08:54  <Rhamphoryncus> Chris_Booth: f