Config
Log for #openttd on 11th May 2012:
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00:00:07  <Nat_aS> is there a newgrf perameter that allows engines to be reversed in multihead trains
00:00:30  <Nat_aS> IRL, when a train has more than one engine, the second or third will be facing backwards for some reason, with only the first engine facing forward
00:00:45  <Nat_aS> this happens on large north American freight trains
00:00:58  <Nat_aS> but in OTTD if you multihead, all the engines will face forward.
00:01:04  <glx> use ctrl
00:01:21  <Nat_aS> you can do that?
00:02:50  <Rienzilla> !help
00:02:50  *** Rienzilla was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
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00:03:05  <Rienzilla> lol, how nice :D
00:03:14  <Nat_aS> lol
00:03:25  <Nat_aS> http://waynesword.palomar.edu/cajtrain.htm
00:03:39  <Nat_aS> looking at pictures, it seems to be arbitraraly random
00:03:50  <Nat_aS> I guess only the direction the first engine is pointing in matters,
00:04:03  <Nat_aS> it's not worth it to turn the extra engines around while forming the train.
00:04:27  <Nat_aS> although one in the back facing reverse probably helps when attaching to the cars.
00:05:03  <Nat_aS> http://waynesword.palomar.edu/images/gltrai3b.jpg
00:05:21  <Nat_aS> are these engines going backwards, or are those longnose types?
00:06:16  <drac_boy> could be either
00:06:35  <Nat_aS> I just realized how ambigious that was
00:06:38  <drac_boy> get a closer photo to find where the "F" letter label is on the side of chassis .. that'll tell you what it was originally set up for
00:06:48  <drac_boy> F is short to Front naturally
00:07:06  <drac_boy> even the carbody diesels still had the F letter next to the nose
00:07:30  <Nat_aS> I know some engines have cabs in the back for safety, if they hit something, the engine will absorb the impact and protect the driver
00:07:45  <drac_boy> Nat_aS mind you tho.. a lot of Alco RS used to be sold as long-nose but were rebuilt for either dual or short-nose instead due to the amount of smoke they could make
00:07:58  <Nat_aS> but that reduces visibility, so they usualy put the cab in the front with an impact absorbing section in front of that
00:08:02  <drac_boy> talk about finding your windshield smeared with black oil
00:08:20  <Nat_aS> oh yeah, the smoke is probably also an issue.
00:08:21  <glx> Nat_aS: just ctrl-click on an engine in depot
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00:08:46  <Nat_aS> what CAN'T the ctrl button do in this game
00:08:48  <Nat_aS> seriously
00:08:52  <Nat_aS> I learn somehting new every day
00:09:15  <glx> we call it the magic key ;)
00:10:03  <drac_boy> Nat_aS heres two examples of 'normal' alco engines for you :-p http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7185/6859857789_516c566fd7_z.jpg and http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6137/5978431292_4a5a8be824_z.jpg
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00:10:15  <drac_boy> little smoke was NOT normal on the contrast ... as crazy as that sounds
00:10:22  <Nat_aS> :C
00:10:34  <Nat_aS> hmm
00:10:38  <drac_boy> so you can see why many RS units were eventually short-nose configured
00:10:45  <Nat_aS> that might be an intresting thing to consider in an engine set
00:10:58  <Nat_aS> some trains can't carry passingers, not because they lack steam heat
00:11:03  <Nat_aS> but because they make too much smoke
00:11:08  <drac_boy> and nat_as its not just alcos ... many of the old heavy diesels in russia are known for lots of smokes too
00:12:42  <drac_boy> Nat_aS while we're talking about that there was another thing with baldwin .. they were good at steam locomotives but also had a decent reputation for local and mainroad shunters as well ... they had one slight silly thing tho...
00:12:43  <Nat_aS> steam heating stops being an issue as time goes by in the sets that have it, but engines that make too much smoke should probably never be able to carry passinger cars.
00:13:05  <drac_boy> as one mechanic said.. if a baldwin was not leaking a bit of oil all the times there was something wrong with it
00:13:15  <Nat_aS> Ewww
00:13:40  <Nat_aS> granted, the SR71 blackbird leaks fuel on the runway
00:13:45  <drac_boy> well it goes to show.. alco smokes like steam ... baldwin were overbuilt so they could leak or be overloaded but they keep going .... etc
00:14:09  <Nat_aS> because it's built to allow the metal to expand as it heats up in flight
00:14:10  <glx> concorde leaked too
00:14:12  <drac_boy> and mind you in a few cases a baldwin ended up at the major repair shop only because it finally threw more than one piston AND had a cracked crankshaft at same time
00:14:12  <Nat_aS> and seals the leaks
00:14:23  <drac_boy> that went to show how stout they were on the road
00:14:34  <Nat_aS> lol crazy
00:14:42  <drac_boy> yeah it'll throw one piston but still keep running
00:14:45  <drac_boy> that was a baldwin for you
00:15:15  <Nat_aS> like the Toyota Huix
00:15:19  <Nat_aS> :v
00:15:36  <Nat_aS> Where's andy
00:15:43  <Nat_aS> I need to demand a Huix in BANDIT
00:15:55  <Nat_aS> lowest running cost and highest reliability.
00:16:11  <drac_boy> nat_as mind you electric locomotives sometimes could be the same .. eg a 2011 locomotive dies at station platform due to too much icing up while standing at signal .. while a 1986 locomotive replacement just shoves the dead loco out of way and take the train onward like as if it didn't even know what 'icy temperature' word was
00:16:19  <Nat_aS> can be fitted with a trailer to tripple the cargo capacity.
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00:16:39  <drac_boy> older steels were more stiff than the new steel/plastic they use today sometimes
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00:19:14  <drac_boy> Nat_aS you know a bit of the Long Island Rail Road or not so much?
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00:23:05  <Nat_aS> not really
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00:25:17  <drac_boy> nat_as mm its a commuters based railroad .. and the interesting thing was the era of three different powers together ... the old steamers, the electrics, and the new alco diesels .. more than often it was only the steamers running reliably through the snow :-p
00:25:37  <drac_boy> electrics had problem with frozen rails ... and the alcos failed a lot for some reason
00:27:03  <Nat_aS> ahh
00:27:24  <Nat_aS> Electrics have a problem with frozen rails because they don't give off as much heat?
00:27:45  <drac_boy> nah it was because of the third rail being half-buried in the snow.. and sometimes chunked with ice as well
00:28:57  <Nat_aS> oh, I thought you meant pantograph electric
00:29:21  <drac_boy> Nat_aS there is one way to stop pantograph electrics ... poorly-located air intakes :)
00:29:36  <drac_boy> look at what happened to your cheap bastard eurostar on that one bad tunnel complication before
00:30:13  <Nat_aS> hmm?
00:30:49  <drac_boy> or on a more friendly note noone could had known about the intake's poor location on the GG1 which caused a lot of them to 'die' one bad winter ... part of the fleet got reofitted with a boxy filter on the outside of the intake to cure that problem
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00:31:41  <drac_boy> funny enough these particular GG1s were often pressed to haul the metroliner emus during some winters because these emus had even more problem with the snow
00:33:17  <Nat_aS> hmm, is there any newgrf perameter for handling differently in snow? In alpine maps?
00:34:17  <drac_boy> no idea sorry :)
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00:35:25  <drac_boy> hmm wondering if this ET 420 could fit on light rails now
00:36:22  <Nat_aS> http://waynesword.palomar.edu/images/sdtrai1b.jpg
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00:37:41  <drac_boy> oh NS Plan V trainset...hm
00:37:46  <drac_boy> going to have to narrow it down -_-
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00:47:29  <drac_boy> at least I know I'll like the ET89 :p
00:52:51  <drac_boy> Nat_aS what do you think of it as well? http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Triebwagen_ET89.jpg&filetimestamp=20100829080455
00:53:18  <Nat_aS> nice
00:53:23  <drac_boy> and its pretty much a loco too http://www.zackenbahn.de/Images/2_Vorbild/23_Fahrzeuge/ET89/et89_07.jpg
00:53:29  <Nat_aS> I mostly play the tropic set, but it lacks a lot of niches
00:53:43  <drac_boy> so I could run it alone or with a few wagons .. who'll care :)
00:54:20  <Nat_aS> I'd like to make a set that uses some of it's engines, but has better options for passinger trains, more electrics, and Monolevs
00:54:29  <Nat_aS> also, less funky carlenghts
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01:02:07  <drac_boy> Nat_aS btw can I show you a different form of railcars?
01:08:32  <Nat_aS> sure
01:09:41  <drac_boy> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Wittfeldakkutriebwageninlage.jpg  it might look a little chunky but thats for a good reason ...
01:10:36  <drac_boy> guess whats under the hoods at both ends ... its self-powered but makes almost no noise at all except for the traction motors .. and it does not have any pickups of any kind
01:11:42  <drac_boy> or shall I just tell you instead? :)
01:15:30  <drac_boy> Nat_aS?
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01:28:19  <Nat_aS> oh sorry
01:28:21  <Nat_aS> :c
01:28:52  <Nat_aS> you left, but I was going to guess batteries.
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02:26:09  <koreanuser> wallow
02:27:09  <koreanuser> hllo
02:27:11  <koreanuser> newbie
02:27:19  <koreanuser> is here
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08:20:09  <krinn> hi
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10:10:21  <drac_boy> hi
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10:26:18  * NGC3982 is so tired.
10:26:32  <NGC3982> im thinking about starting a big server with road-only
10:32:10  <drac_boy> heh would be interesting for me to try only...I don't think this is on the chrill build tho. have fun still :)
10:37:10  <NGC3982> chrill?
10:37:44  <Markk> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Krill_swarm.jpg
10:37:45  <Markk> Krill?
10:38:08  <drac_boy> NGC3982 yeah the chrill build of ottd
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10:41:51  <Eddi|zuHause> that's not the name, anyway...
10:42:23  <NGC3982> ah, i see.
10:42:29  <NGC3982> krill <3.
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11:00:25  <drac_boy> anyone here mind giving me a quick deutsch translation?
11:20:57  <Rubidium> nein?
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11:31:02  <Hazzard> Is there a grf that removes oil rigs?
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11:39:01  <NGC3982> Hazzard: i do not think so.
11:39:09  <NGC3982> Hazzard: im not sure, but google tells me there isnt.
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12:36:56  <Hazzard> Is there a place where you can sample all the SFX sounds?
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13:10:17  <planetmaker> What do you mean with "sample all the SFX sounds"?
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13:15:07  <NGC3982> i guess he refers to a directory or something
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14:00:46  <Terkhen> hello
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14:24:39  <Belugas> hello
14:25:22  <FLHerne> hello
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14:36:36  <Terkhen> hi FLHerne
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15:40:22  <NGC3982> http://www.flickr.com/photos/appemobile/7176925438/in/photostream
15:40:28  <NGC3982> how to keep track on your work force.
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15:46:28  <supermop> hi
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16:06:08  <Terkhen> andythenorth: FIRS 0.7.5 works in toyland, intended?
16:06:14  *** roadt_ [~roadt@60.168.87.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:07:12  <andythenorth> [shrug] :)
16:08:12  <Terkhen> it looks horrible, but it might look nicer with brickland :P
16:08:41  <supermop> planetmaker: I'm bored and want to draw a mail refit for the original DMUs, maybe you can put it in the + set if you like, where is the best place to grab a templated manly morrell and dash?
16:12:17  <andythenorth> Terkhen: brickland! :)
16:12:25  <andythenorth> render FIRS in 32BPP?
16:12:45  <supermop> shouldn't there be lego styled industries for that?
16:13:43  <andythenorth> whole new cargos + chains
16:13:47  <andythenorth> supermop: you can design it :)
16:14:47  <supermop> no, same industries but built out of legos
16:15:11  <Terkhen> lego industries, building pieces of different colours
16:17:05  <andythenorth> different kinds of pieces
16:17:07  <andythenorth> bricks
16:17:08  <andythenorth> wheels
16:17:12  <andythenorth> minifig tools
16:17:23  <andythenorth> etc
16:17:42  <andythenorth> parts categories are here: http://www.bricklink.com/catalogTree.asp?itemType=P
16:17:50  <andythenorth> animals can be done
16:17:57  <andythenorth> hmm
16:18:04  <andythenorth> TTD lacks a 'pirate' theme
16:18:13  <andythenorth> maybe that could be part of brickland
16:18:59  <andythenorth> brickland should have 4.5v, 9v, 12v and power functions trains
16:19:11  <andythenorth> *not* using the official lego names or branding though
16:19:15  <andythenorth> and also the monorail
16:19:37  <andythenorth> http://www.peeron.com/inv/sets/6990-1
16:20:05  <andythenorth> boats are pretty straightforward
16:20:06  <andythenorth> http://www.brickset.com/search/?theme=Boats&query=boat
16:20:17  <andythenorth> although seriously, fireboats and police boats will be over-represented :P
16:20:38  <V453000> omg andy :-D
16:20:54  <andythenorth> V453000: you know it needs doing
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16:21:03  <andythenorth> I won't do it though :P
16:21:12  <V453000> I actually made a lego house  a long time ago :d
16:21:24  <andythenorth> done carefully, it would be a fricking awesome total-landscape mod :P
16:21:39  <andythenorth> and is good for 32bpp
16:21:50  <V453000> myeah but effort
16:21:59  <andythenorth> also
16:22:09  <andythenorth> all the parts are modelled already http://www.ldraw.org/
16:22:16  <V453000> lol
16:22:31  <andythenorth> just go from ldraw / legocad to renders
16:22:40  * andythenorth is deadly serious ;)
16:23:09  <andythenorth> it's all creative commons afaict
16:23:35  <V453000> :D
16:24:59  <andythenorth> http://www.ldraw.org/Article227.html
16:25:07  <andythenorth> no artistic skill needed
16:25:23  <andythenorth> many of the official lego sets are already modelled
16:25:28  <andythenorth> just render
16:25:42  <V453000> boring then
16:26:10  <andythenorth> still have to do design, game balance ;)
16:28:08  <V453000> well you could just replace sprites
16:28:44  <supermop> if you scalled a set down to fit on just a few tiles, it wouldn't look like lego anymore
16:28:56  <andythenorth> replacing sprites....boring :P
16:29:04  <supermop> especially if the tiles are 6x6 bumps
16:29:10  <andythenorth> supermop: good point :o
16:29:35  <supermop> better to use the micro scale techniques
16:29:44  <supermop> ill try to make some today
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16:31:49  <andythenorth> supermop: http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=478273
16:31:59  <andythenorth> http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=426408
16:32:09  <andythenorth> http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=426409
16:32:16  <andythenorth> http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=426411
16:32:19  <supermop> nice
16:32:24  <andythenorth> micro-scale = very nice
16:32:33  <andythenorth> the creativity in some of those is impressive
16:32:47  <supermop> but the loading gauge should be maybe 4 bumps wide at most? let me see
16:32:59  <V453000> interesting
16:33:04  <supermop> i don't like the controls in this
16:33:06  <andythenorth> supermop: try for 2 bumps
16:33:26  <supermop> i thought about that, and it mimicks original scale
16:33:29  <supermop> but
16:33:34  <supermop> i don't like it
16:33:51  <supermop> why cant i invert mouse?
16:33:59  <andythenorth> oh :(
16:34:01  <supermop> the pan pans the wrong way
16:34:06  <andythenorth> 2 wide crocodile :) http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=5439693
16:34:18  <supermop> cute
16:34:25  <supermop> its so tall though
16:34:33  <andythenorth> true
16:34:34  <supermop> thats like 3 height levels tall
16:34:51  <supermop> brb lunch with my dad
16:34:56  <andythenorth> looks good from the side, might be thin from above / end
16:35:20  <V453000> well mainly it probably looks a lot different from the other side
16:35:28  <V453000> unless is is 4 wide and cloned to the other side
16:35:54  <andythenorth> maybe that's the solution :P
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16:37:51  <supermop> iyeah - loading gauge 4
16:38:00  <supermop> ok going for real now
16:41:07  <planetmaker> supermop: did you look at OpenGFX+ Trains? It should have suitable mail wagons for all its DMUs
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16:56:28  <Alberth> hi hi
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17:16:44  <Wolf01> hello
17:16:55  <Alberth> hi Wolf01
17:17:22  <Alberth> tea, coffee?
17:18:14  <Wolf01> tea, thank you, I just had a coffee
17:18:35  * Alberth purs a cup of tea for Wolf01, with a cookie
17:18:47  <Alberth> *pours
17:20:03  <Wolf01> thank you :P
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17:21:02  <Alberth> it's still early apparently, you are the first person entering in 20 minutes :)
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17:24:07  <Wolf01> I sneaked out from work in time this evening
17:25:59  <Alberth> I stayed a little longer as I was in the middle of rewriting some complicated code which I wanted to finish
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17:29:09  <Wolf01> I did that for the past... 3 weeks
17:30:40  <Alberth> :o
17:31:04  <Alberth> sounds like you earned an early friday evening :)
17:31:48  <Wolf01> only because tomorrow is the marriage of my boss ;)
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17:39:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24223 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt latvian.txt polish.txt russian.txt vietnamese.txt):
17:39:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:39:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 2 changes by OliTTD
17:39:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 1 changes by Parastais
17:39:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: polish - 10 changes by wojteks86
17:39:07  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: russian - 36 changes by Lone_Wolf
17:39:07  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: vietnamese - 5 changes by nglekhoi
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17:58:00  <Nat_aS> guh
18:02:58  <Alberth> is that an English word?
18:04:22  <Nat_aS> yes
18:05:18  <Alberth> good evening :)
18:08:08  <Nat_aS> hello
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18:41:08  * Rubidium didn't even go to work today ;)
18:41:18  <Rubidium> beat that!
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18:45:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd definitely win that contest
18:46:53  <Rubidium> why?
18:47:38  <Rubidium> if you're unemployed, then you're doing that unemployment thing every minute of the week
18:49:17  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, i do have a job
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20:29:26  <hackalittlebit> frosch123: Did you have a sneek peek :)
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20:32:47  <drac_boy> hi
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20:34:39  <frosch123> hackalittlebit: yes, but sadly there is no convergence in sight :) all new layouts are very different from the others
20:35:30  <frosch123> it would be nice if we could first settle what settings are advanced and which not
20:35:49  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24224 /trunk/src/newgrf_industries.cpp: -Fix [FS#5159]: dereferencing uninitialised pointer (frosch)
20:36:08  <frosch123> in your last layout you really surprised me by making the start date an advanced setting :)
20:36:35  <hackalittlebit> was not in original game
20:36:44  <drac_boy> doesn't matter
20:36:50  <drac_boy> 1920 is not advanced
20:36:53  <drac_boy> :)
20:37:01  <frosch123> more than 1492 :p
20:38:12  <hackalittlebit> for me fine I'll put it back.
20:39:22  <hackalittlebit> Yuo wan't to study it a bit more?
20:39:28  <frosch123> maybe we should hold a short survey for every setting, whether they are advanced, not so advanced, or questionably advanced
20:40:00  <drac_boy> frosch123 as long as you don't list all the stupid little things :)
20:40:04  <drac_boy> especially colour newspapers
20:40:06  <drac_boy> heh heh
20:40:11  <Rubidium> come on, you need three levels of advancedness: noob (type of map (4 options), size: 5 options: tiny, small, medium, large, huge)
20:40:15  <frosch123> i mean only mapgen stuff :)
20:41:00  <frosch123> yeah, we should add password protection for maps bigger than 512x512 :p
20:41:29  <hackalittlebit> wait a second , I will post tomorrow list with all options.
20:42:04  <hackalittlebit> then we can go item by item
20:42:39  <hackalittlebit> just an idea, would a reset button do?
20:42:58  <hackalittlebit> reset to original state
20:43:36  <drac_boy> whats "original" tho silly?
20:45:35  <frosch123> i don't think there is any reasonable default or original state
20:46:00  <hackalittlebit> he he
20:46:21  <frosch123> we discussed dropping the weird difficulty options, so then there would be even less defaults
20:47:07  <Rubidium> use the settings that approximate the default settings for the single climate demo version?
20:49:13  <hackalittlebit> rubidium: In fact there should be something like that. realy setting game state back to when you downloaded for the first time
20:49:35  <hackalittlebit> coreldraw has it
20:50:30  <hackalittlebit> and I saw somewere in FS you had problems with default settings
20:50:36  <Rubidium> I doubt that, maybe to the 'factory' settings of the currently installed version, but not the factory settings on the version you installed first (and then upgraded the heck away from)
20:50:52  <hackalittlebit> ok
20:51:07  <Rubidium> but for that just close openttd and trash openttd.cfg
20:52:05  <hackalittlebit> so then it would be easy to solve
20:52:28  <hackalittlebit> restart game
20:57:48  <hackalittlebit> rubidium:fs5154
20:58:31  <hackalittlebit> moment you can not read var, use original
20:59:03  <Rubidium> it does that
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20:59:23  <Rubidium> that's not what fs5154 is about
21:01:03  <Rubidium> the bug is about crashing because it tries to tell you that a setting is incorrect using the string system
21:01:17  <Rubidium> which coincidentally isn't loaded at that time yet
21:02:01  <Rubidium> mostly due to only being able to load it after knowing the language, which will only be known after loading the bunch of settings that it are troublesome w.r.t. 5154
21:04:02  <hackalittlebit> fs5153
21:04:10  <hackalittlebit> made by eddy
21:04:20  <hackalittlebit> eddi
21:07:38  <Rubidium> what point are you trying to make?
21:11:21  *** hackalittlebits [57c4261e@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
21:11:55  <hackalittlebits> sorry lost connection :(
21:13:15  <hackalittlebits> For new users it should be possible to mees around and try and knowing they can go back to clean state
21:13:47  <hackalittlebits> I my self have that with new software
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21:14:27  <hackalittlebits> makes sense no?
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21:28:26  <frosch123> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1394/ <- hackalittlebits: my personal classification of the settings
21:28:34  <frosch123> others may have different opinions :)
21:30:09  <hackalittlebits> ok, I'll make changes and lets see :)
21:30:26  <hackalittlebits> tomorrow i will post
21:30:54  <hackalittlebits> see you
21:30:58  <frosch123> bye
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21:39:15  <FLHerne> frosch123: I'd dispute rivers and especially map edges on that list
21:39:47  <frosch123> do you regulary change map edges?
21:39:52  <FLHerne> Yes...
21:39:56  <FLHerne> :P
21:40:20  <FLHerne> Pretty much every game I have different ones
21:40:52  <frosch123> well, the show-advanced setting could be remembered, so you would always see all settings :)
21:41:23  <frosch123> but, if there are users who change map edges regulary, we will likely find a user for every setting
21:41:43  <FLHerne> Yeah, but I don't really want to have to flip through the advanced settings every time I start a new game :-(
21:41:54  <frosch123> wrt. rivers i don't think i have enough experience :p
21:42:15  <FLHerne> Add a 'favourite settings' panel :D
21:42:30  <FLHerne> Then people could select the ones they used often
21:42:52  <frosch123> i think if you are at a point where you use stuff often, you likely know all the settings anyway
21:43:45  <FLHerne> I know where they are, but I'm very lazy :P
21:44:36  <frosch123> then write the settings into a notepad, and c&p them into the console :p
21:45:02  <FLHerne> A panel where I could select my most-used settings would be neater :D
21:46:04  <FLHerne> Unlikely, sadly :-(
21:46:11  <frosch123> sounds like a flattr button next to each setting :p
21:46:43  <FLHerne> flattr?
21:48:52  * FLHerne goes to bed
21:48:55  <FLHerne> ['night
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21:52:32  <Nat_aS> http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=392342&nseq=10#remarks
21:52:33  <Nat_aS> wut?
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22:03:16  <Wolf01> ahah
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22:29:42  <Terkhen> good night
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22:35:29  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:52:21  <Nat_aS> why can't you assign colors by group?
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