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Log for #openttd on 14th May 2012:
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01:42:29  <Dwarden> anyone here has experience with scripting for NSIS ? (nullsoft installer)
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07:47:08  <dihedral> greetings
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08:01:04  <NGC3982> morning.
08:01:13  <Hazzard> Hi
08:20:20  * NGC3982 fills his morning with nml browsing, chet baker and coffee as black as uganda.
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13:02:23  <Hazzard> I have a grf question: will a vehicle appear if there are no cargo type it can refit to?
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13:10:22  <Coke> How can I get the Station representation struct from a tile?
13:13:46  <planetmaker> Hazzard, yes, obviously engines do that. But it need be engines. IIRC all others (RV, aircraft, ships, wagons) don't appear then)
13:15:18  <planetmaker> Coke, what do you want to do?
13:15:20  <Coke> hm, GetStationIndex and then Station::Get seems the appropriate way
13:15:28  <Coke> planetmaker: I'm experimenting with redoing waypoints
13:15:55  <planetmaker> there probably is something like GetStationByTile or so
13:16:04  <opa> planetmaker: what about brake vans in UKRS2?
13:16:10  <opa> they show in None cargo type listy
13:16:31  <opa> is it one type of engine?
13:16:45  <Coke> yeah, Station::GetByTile
13:16:46  <planetmaker> iirc it's a kind of MU style coding
13:18:46  <Coke> planetmaker: i've been checking out the programmable signals code, but I'm trying out to change how the pathfinder operates by putting the logic in waypoints (can be a new type if tile if desired, but default waypoint works the same way)
13:19:06  <Coke> it will return NO_WAY for pathfinder error if it fails the test, making trains treat it as a dead end
13:19:58  <planetmaker> I see
13:20:09  <Coke> it seems simpler and I dont have to add new tile types.
13:20:57  <Coke> also, waypoints seem easier to keep track of than signals and can cover multiple tiles.
13:21:16  <planetmaker> indeed
13:21:53  <Coke> I've added a test in the CFollowTrack::CanEnterNewTile
13:22:24  <Coke> if the action returned by the waypoint is avoid it will count as a dead end
13:22:38  <Coke> works when reserving paths for any signal
13:23:12  <Coke> i'm still making on a third action type (in addition to none and avoid) called reverse, but I'm ahving problem forcing the train to reverse (i.e treat waypoint as invallid_tile)
13:23:56  <Coke> i was thinking of adding a cost parameter for the path finder, but I noticed that the different path finders work differently and just treating it as a dead end seems to work for both.
13:24:19  <Coke> and I don't want to clutter the gameplay with such details.
13:24:48  <Coke> (one can always still use the normal ways of adding path cost for yapf, for instance)
13:25:17  <Hazzard> Ok, Thanks planetmaker
13:26:31  <Coke> planetmaker: here's a snag, the pathfinder only has access to vehicle type and vehicle owner, not the actual vehicle itself.
13:29:54  <Coke> I may have to distinguish between different waypoints, which is sad coz then it can't be generlized later for all types of vehicles.
13:30:51  <Coke> wait, there's a typedef in follow_track
13:32:40  <Coke> Hm, I'm not good enough with C++ to understand how those typedefs work. I don't see any templating in CFollowTrackT
13:33:36  <Coke> Oh, I think VehicleType may refer to being a Vehicle type, not the type of the vehicle.
13:36:14  <Coke> aha, VehicleType is a template name. Weird considering there's a real type named VehicleType. :)
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13:40:13  <Coke> or maybe there isn't... whiskey and coding doesn't mix as well as hoped.
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13:40:22  <Hazzard> :)
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13:46:28  <Hazzard> planetmaker: Is it possible to enable/disable a vehicle in a set using parameters?
13:47:03  <planetmaker> you can programme the NewGRF such as to allow that
13:48:16  <Hazzard> Is that something that is done with switches?
14:20:54  <Coke> yeah there is something called VehicleType as a type as well as a template name.
14:28:07  <Coke> what is the unit type of internal cached max speed defined in?
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14:33:48  <Coke> looks like kmh
14:35:00  <andythenorth> lo
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14:37:10  <michi_cc> Coke: The unit depends on the vehicle type. It's never km/h though, only mph*1.6, which is not quite km/h.
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14:40:10  <Coke> michi_cc: any convenience conversion functions?
14:40:59  <michi_cc> Check the Vehicle class definition in vehicle_base.h
14:50:38  <Coke> michi_cc: just returns uint
14:51:39  <michi_cc> ?? What else should it return?
14:52:03  <planetmaker> Coke, game code never must use floats
14:52:09  <planetmaker> only UI code may
14:52:43  <planetmaker> which then never may act back as input anywhere to the game code
14:53:08  <Coke> ok, so my max speed test works fine.
14:53:50  <Coke> now for the hairy stuff like testing sizes, carrying cargo and cargo capabilities.
14:55:58  <__ln__> http://www.universetoday.com/95099/engineer-thinks-we-could-build-a-real-starship-enterprise-in-20-years/
14:57:29  <blathijs> Awesome! Replicators!
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14:58:08  <planetmaker> __ln__, you mean a real space vehicle 'Enterprise'?
14:58:15  <planetmaker> Like ... http://www.universetoday.com/95099/engineer-thinks-we-could-build-a-real-starship-enterprise-in-20-years/
14:58:18  <planetmaker> err...
14:58:23  <planetmaker> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_Enterprise
15:00:05  <blathijs> planetmaker: Like the one from the star trek series
15:00:06  <Coke> in the 60's most people thought we would have landed people on mars by 2000. AC Clark probably thought we'd visit Jupiter around that time.
15:00:44  <blathijs> Seems buildtheenterprise.org got slashdotted
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15:01:22  <Coke> There's currently no funded projects for colonizing Mars or having a manned crew outside of earth's orbit.
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15:02:16  <blathijs> Apparently this guy had a funding plan for the project or something
15:02:26  <Coke> Watched a documentary from 1960 that described "Stockholm in the year 2000". I'm still waiting for my 300kmh speed limit highway.
15:02:35  <blathijs> Too bad I can't reach the site, I was curious for the total cost estimation
15:02:55  <Coke> The future is shit. Wanted spaceships and lasers, but all we have is an iphone.
15:03:31  <Coke> openttd predicts maglev in traffic by 2020... let's see about that.
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15:03:56  <SpComb> we already have maglevs
15:04:04  <SpComb> in commercial use
15:04:33  <Coke> On very few stretches. But there is a fundamental problem, they are still slower than flying and the cost efficiency of moving passengers comfortable isn't very good with trains.
15:05:38  <Rubidium> flying isn't comfortable at all
15:05:53  <Coke> Rubidium: people have higher standards for trains, that's for sure.
15:06:12  <Coke> Ofcourse, if maglevs could do super sonic speed, then we would be talking.
15:06:16  <planetmaker> indeed, flying is a pain
15:06:21  <Coke> better comfort than flying and faster too.
15:06:36  <Rubidium> Coke: supersonic isn't needed
15:06:38  <planetmaker> Coke, how would a maglev need to be supersonic to be competitive to planes?
15:06:46  <Coke> as an example, in europe I can fly just about between any capitals for < 0
15:06:59  <Coke> planetmaker: because planes are cheap as fuck
15:07:01  <Coke> and fast.
15:07:01  <planetmaker> and need to go to a remote airport and return from a remote airport
15:07:01  <__ln__> Coke: no you can't
15:07:08  <planetmaker> while by train you arrive at the city centres
15:07:16  <Coke> __ln__: let's make that 0 to make it more feasable
15:07:28  <Rubidium> e.g. if I'd go to Berlin it would take 6 hours by train to get to the center. If I'd go by plane it'd take roughly the same
15:07:36  <Rubidium> the cheapest train ticket is 40 euros
15:07:46  <Rubidium> the cheapest plane ticket is 34 euros
15:07:47  <planetmaker> e.g. the cost to by cheap plane means I need 3x the cost of public transport to get to these damn village airports
15:07:47  <Coke> planetmaker: as a perfect example, I went to barcelona last year
15:08:00  <Coke> train tickets were about 0, airplain 0
15:08:02  <__ln__> Coke: still, especially the budget airlines fly to some distant airports 100 km away from the intended destination.
15:08:04  <Rubidium> (+ 15 for train to airport and +5 for train from airport to city center)
15:08:05  <planetmaker> and including those, it's not faster either.
15:08:24  <Coke> train takes almost 10 hours and has two changes, plane 3.5 going nonstop
15:08:54  <Coke> planetmaker: even with the 35 euro cab fair it was cheaper flying
15:09:08  <andythenorth> go everywhere by taxi
15:09:09  <Coke> no wait, the train ride was even longer
15:09:17  <andythenorth> taxis are cheaper than public transport
15:09:21  <Coke> another example, flying from stockholm to nice
15:09:25  <__ln__> Coke: you are not counting that you need to be at the airport 1h..2h prior to departure.
15:09:31  <michi_cc> The vast majority of future predictions fail simply because they are only extrapolations of knows stuff into the future. More or less every prediction made in the 70s (and a lot of the 80s) had lots of space, nuclear, automated people movers, mode separated cities etc. All technology already known, wheres almost no prediction had any clue about WWW, SMS, social networks and all the other IT stuff.
15:09:35  <Coke> __ln__: still hours faster than train
15:09:53  <Coke> you can multiple the cost and time for planes by 5 and still beat trains for most desintations within europe
15:10:21  <andythenorth> michi_cc: bet you could find contrary examples if you looked
15:10:24  <Coke> if I could get from stockholm to barcelona in 6 hours I'd use the train.
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15:10:43  <SpComb> this argument calls for transatlantic trains
15:10:45  <Coke> oh, and if it was as cheap as flying
15:10:56  <andythenorth> hmm
15:11:03  <Coke> got an air ticket for  to Prague last year too
15:11:05  <andythenorth> in openttd, all roads are dual line superhighways
15:11:08  <Coke> train was, again, almost 0
15:11:14  <Coke> and would take 4 times longer.
15:11:15  <Rubidium> Coke: you're better off "optimizing" the main routes than making a supersonic train to a relatively small town such as Nice
15:11:22  <andythenorth> taxi: 
15:11:22  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Sure. I'm not saying nobody got it right, but especially everything that was more popular science had a very high wrong quota.
15:11:41  <andythenorth> and most sci fi
15:11:48  <Coke> Rubidium: anyway, all moot points because generally, in Europe, if you're going more than 500km it's faster and cheaper flying
15:12:01  <andythenorth> but for sci fi, that's kind of how it works anyway, reflecting now
15:12:11  <Belugas> hello
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15:12:15  <__ln__> Coke: you are talking about a trip from one end of the continent to another... that's hardly the typical case.
15:12:15  <Coke> within Sweden: flying from stockholm to malmö, 30 minutes + 15 minute cab ride for 
15:12:27  <Coke> by train: 6 hours and 
15:12:32  * __ln__ didn't know swedes have switched to dollars
15:12:39  <Coke> __ln__: see my latest
15:12:43  <planetmaker> Coke, I'd not count on that being true... It might be true for Sweden with its limited land connection Western / Central Europe
15:12:55  <Coke> planetmaker: even within sweden itÀs cheaper and faste rflying
15:12:57  <Coke> period.
15:13:25  <Coke> I haven't ridden a train since... Since I actually rode the spanish high speed trains, which are both cheaper and faster than flying. But they are a subsidiary.
15:13:33  <opa> whats the distance betweeen stchlm and malmo?
15:13:40  <Coke> opa: 650km
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15:13:57  <opa> you have slow trains
15:13:58  <Rubidium> for me getting to Paris (500 km) or Berlin (600 km) is faster with the train than with an aircraft from my home (to the city center)
15:14:01  <__ln__> why would one want to go to malmö?
15:14:34  <Coke> __ln__: business and weed
15:15:00  <Coke> Rubidium: sweden has insane distances for such a small country
15:15:21  <Coke> from Malmö, it's about 400km to Berlin (?) but over 1200km to Kiruna.
15:15:44  <Coke> Maybe the Swedish rail system isn't getting the subsidiary funding it needs to be competitive.
15:16:13  <Coke> ALl I know is that when you compare kilowatts spent per kilometer per person, passenger trains is just marginally better than flying. Bus is still more cost effective.
15:16:15  <opa> coke are counting the extra costs of swedish taxis ;)
15:16:17  <Rubidium> if I were to leave now to Paris I'd arrive around 23:00 by aircraft (~500 euros), by train around 22:35 (~115 euros)
15:16:20  <Coke> (which is why a bus to malmö costs about )
15:16:27  <Coke> 500 euroes?!??!?!
15:16:38  <Coke> what are you flying? getting blowjobs from the flight attendants?
15:17:17  <Coke> sure, flying a private helicopter with the beach volley team voted "most sexy 2011" is gonna cost you.
15:17:30  <SpComb> sounds like you may be comparing cheap flights against not-cheap trains
15:17:32  <Rubidium> the only airliner that still has tickets for tonight ;)
15:17:38  <planetmaker> I get to Paris (850km) for 160€. A flight would be much more expensive, if I include the cost to get to and from airports
15:17:58  <Coke> planetmaker: I can get to paris for 160 euro flying
15:18:04  <SpComb> although trains are certainly going in the same direction as planes, with tickets being cheaper further in advance
15:18:05  <planetmaker> right now?
15:18:06  <Rubidium> so I'm just comparing full fare against full fare
15:18:19  <Coke> planetmaker: sure. many apply the cheaper prices to left over tickets too
15:18:32  <Coke> flew to Nice for about 0 a couple of years ago
15:18:56  <Coke> and the last malmö ticket I bought was about 
15:19:03  <Coke> compared to the train which was  at that time
15:19:20  <SpComb> they sell 10€ train tickets between major cities here as well
15:19:25  <Rubidium> pff, my second to last train trip was ~100 km and free ;)
15:19:30  <Coke> SpComb: cool.
15:19:39  <SpComb> Coke: quite
15:19:43  <Coke> I guess sweden isn't much a of a train country any more
15:19:48  <SpComb> just saying, it works both ways
15:19:53  <Coke> SpComb: I usually only ride trains to evaluate them.
15:19:56  <Coke> SpComb: not here.
15:20:04  <Coke> I've never seen any train tickets cheaper than flying tickets.
15:20:05  <Coke> Ever.
15:20:08  <SpComb> it's not that easy to compare prices for things like trains vs planes, since there's so much variance in the tickets
15:20:12  <Rubidium> Canada is definitely not a train country, you're better off with the bus
15:20:14  <__ln__> Coke: you are talking to europeanunionians, it doesn't make sense to use dollars since that's not the native currency for anyone/most.
15:20:15  <Coke> may be that sweden is just disjoint from europe
15:20:22  <SpComb> you can find expensive flights and cheap trains
15:20:38  <Coke> hm. maybe not. I'm still on SEK
15:20:41  <Coke> (yay!)
15:20:45  <planetmaker> cheapest flight to Paris is 250€. Add another 30€ to get to and from the local airport. And probably similar in Paris
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15:21:09  <planetmaker> So ... that's about 150€ more expensive. which is about 200% train price
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15:21:15  <Coke> let me check.
15:21:42  <planetmaker> and it'd even be only a flight next week
15:21:42  <Coke> haha, found a plane ticket for  to Gdansk. :)
15:21:45  <Coke> wtf.
15:22:00  <opa> oncluding the taxes?
15:22:08  <planetmaker> ofc not ;-)
15:22:38  <Coke> fuck, paris is expensive. guess it's popular. cheapest right now is 3, including taxes.
15:22:55  <Coke> 5 hours and 40 minutes, one change.
15:22:57  <Coke> eew.
15:23:02  <opa> train can be a lot more comfortable when crossing the borders
15:23:21  <planetmaker> add 2 hours checking. 1 hour to airport = 8 ... 9 hours ;-)
15:23:26  <planetmaker> -g
15:23:41  <Rubidium> CAD 64 for a plane Toronto - Montreal (excl. trip to/from airport from/to center), CAD 20 for the direct bus, CAD 78 for train. So safe to say train and aircraft cost about as much, bus is 25% ;)
15:23:56  <opa> my longest plane trip inside eu took 22h
15:24:07  <Coke> cheapest train to Paris for me is 4
15:24:08  <opa> and it was on schedule
15:24:15  <opa> and the quickest
15:24:32  <opa> to that dest
15:24:36  <Coke> planetmaker: time for train is 16 hours
15:24:39  <Coke> fuck trains.
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15:25:26  <Coke> stockholm -> paris flying 3, 5.5 hours + cab ride. train: 4 and 16 to 18 hours.
15:25:41  <Coke> and I know some destinations are dirt cheap to fly to
15:26:06  <Coke> I can fly to barcelona over a weekend and get a hotel monday to thursday for 0.
15:26:10  <planetmaker> If I'd go to Barcelona by train, I'd do a night ride. And arrive there relaxed :-) Then I also don't care that it takes the whole night
15:26:15  <Coke> not a weekend. weekstart.
15:26:43  <Coke> planetmaker: I hate traveling unless I'm evaluating a train.
15:26:55  <planetmaker> you already said that
15:27:02  <Coke> mostly i like watching trains from outside.
15:28:09  <Coke> I wish I had more incentive to ride trains, they are way cooler than airplanes.
15:29:02  <Coke> todo: england france by eurostar and beijing shanghai by CRC.
15:30:58  <Coke> i'm still a bit puzzled myself how airtickets can be so cheap. seems like running an airport, safety, etc etc would be expensive.
15:31:19  <SpComb> not selling all tickets at the same price helps
15:31:44  <Coke> SpComb: yeah. most airtravel gets cheaper closer to the departure date.
15:31:59  <Coke> but our swedish airfleet (SAS) does not do that, so I never fly with them
15:32:48  <Coke> I liked spanair, too bad they went belly up. Guess they shouldnt have treated passengers to free pillows. :)
15:33:30  <Coke> all u guys in eurozone?
15:35:25  <Coke> Hm. It's actually cheaper flying to europe than inside Sweden when I'm looking at the top ten lowest prices.
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17:16:24  <Terkhen> hello
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17:26:24  <andythenorth> hmm
17:26:28  <andythenorth> opinions? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1015687#p1015687
17:29:07  <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/bandit/nightlies/ERROR/r489/bandit-r489-build.err.log
17:29:55  <frosch123> that says python 2.7
17:30:05  <frosch123> isn't everyone using 3.x nowadays?
17:30:13  <andythenorth> ho
17:30:24  <andythenorth> not me :)
17:30:36  <andythenorth> 2.7 is seen as blindingly cutting edge
17:30:40  <andythenorth> 2.6 is preferred
17:30:48  <andythenorth> 2.4 is what we actually use for our big apps
17:30:52  <frosch123> well, if you have the same version, it should be fine
17:31:09  <andythenorth> I have 2.6.1
17:31:41  <opa> some still use 2.3
17:33:16  <frosch123> what, even cloning bandit fails
17:33:17  <andythenorth> I just got an app off 2.3 :P
17:33:23  <frosch123> i thought only ogfx-trains is so bit
17:33:30  <andythenorth> frosch123: sounds unrelated to my issue, but :o
17:33:43  <frosch123> andythenorth: how big is your repository?
17:33:55  <andythenorth> the entire repo for me is 25MB, including all the generated deps sitting in it
17:33:57  <andythenorth> one min
17:34:11  <frosch123> well, then its some devzone failure
17:34:26  <andythenorth> 24.8MB :P
17:34:41  <frosch123> i had to pull it in multiple steps again
17:35:01  <andythenorth> :o
17:35:16  <frosch123> same happened for ogfx-trains, but there the reason was that it was like 300 MB
17:35:27  <frosch123> what is chameleon?
17:35:38  <frosch123> something by you, our something i get from my package manager?
17:35:45  <andythenorth> python pacakge
17:35:50  <andythenorth> package /s
17:36:31  <andythenorth> http://chameleon.repoze.org/docs/latest/index.html#getting-the-code
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17:38:17  <andythenorth> pull over http / https works.  ssh seems to stall
17:38:18  <frosch123> PageTemplateLoader is missing
17:38:28  <andythenorth> hmm ssh works too
17:38:43  <frosch123> not in chameleon 1.1.1 ?
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17:39:15  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24244 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
17:39:15  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:39:15  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belarusian - 419 changes by Wowanxm
17:39:15  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 9 changes by habell
17:39:15  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_US - 3 changes by Rubidium
17:39:15  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: estonian - 4 changes by Jaanus
17:39:15  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by glx
17:39:38  <andythenorth> hmm
17:39:45  <andythenorth> not mentioned as new in 2.x
17:40:46  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24245 /trunk/src/lang/ (16 files): -Change: Move the warning about big station spreads to the setting description.
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17:46:52  <frosch123> well, i guess 1.1. is different from 2.x
17:47:09  <frosch123> so, not builable with squeeze default packages
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17:48:05  <andythenorth> easy_install ?
17:50:21  <frosch123> how would i print the installed version of chameleion?
17:50:47  <frosch123> on suse :p
17:51:02  <andythenorth> python import chameleon
17:51:05  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Grass shows through CHIPS sand platforms with Pikka's track :P
17:51:06  <andythenorth> chameleon
17:51:21  <andythenorth> FLHerne: those platforms will be removed soon
17:51:24  <andythenorth> I didn't bother fixing them
17:51:28  <FLHerne> Why?
17:51:35  <andythenorth> ugly, no longer needed
17:51:45  <andythenorth> they were made to fit specifically to FIRS sand quarry
17:51:51  <andythenorth> I changed the quarry
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17:52:54  <andythenorth> frosch123: I have the version number in path for the egg, dunno if that applies when it's packaged though ;)
17:53:04  <andythenorth> mine is 2.8.0 fwiw
17:53:36  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Since 0.7.5?
17:55:04  <frosch123> andythenorth: too much work to get it to build :)
17:55:08  <frosch123> i want something out of the box :p
17:55:33  <Terkhen> hmmm.... so many strings
17:56:24  <andythenorth> frosch123: nothing I can do about that :P
17:56:47  <andythenorth> "wouldn't it be nice if deps were magic" is a known python problem
17:57:03  <andythenorth> it's quite horribly unsolved
17:57:33  <planetmaker> andythenorth, to answer your forum question: if you want the devzone to build your grf w/o a makefile, you need to provide a grf.spec file and adopt the build rules therein: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx/repository/entry/.devzone/build/grf.spec
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17:59:08  <andythenorth> or I keep the makefile
17:59:15  <andythenorth> but remove the things that don't work with it
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17:59:43  <planetmaker> DevZone tries to compile the grf from a source bundle by default. Thus it first builds the source bundle. Then builds the grf from there
18:00:25  <planetmaker> or so I believe :-P
18:00:46  <planetmaker> I should possibly create a makefile version w/o any deps
18:00:57  <planetmaker> it's easy...
18:01:12  <planetmaker> but then it's not too easy, too :-P
18:02:07  <planetmaker> in essence there's no universal way to do the right thing [TM] when arbitrary generation scripts are involved
18:02:26  <andythenorth> so I could hide the generation
18:02:32  <andythenorth> and commit the result of the generation
18:02:41  <andythenorth> then the makefile would just see nml + pngs
18:03:09  <planetmaker> of course you could
18:03:20  <planetmaker> But it would kinda... be absurd
18:03:42  <andythenorth> well....worse is better
18:03:51  <planetmaker> like a child holding the hands in front of the eyes and telling "you can't see me" to use a bad parabole
18:05:14  <andythenorth> well that's what I thought too
18:05:24  <andythenorth> but then I've spent too much time trying to make it work
18:05:46  <andythenorth> what's the win condition?  Doing it right, or shipping a grf?
18:11:58  <andythenorth> FLHerne: quarry changed in 0.7.2
18:14:07  <andythenorth> planetmaker: also - wrt my forum post - I'm not complaining about the makefile you wrote
18:14:17  <andythenorth> just in case you felt under-appreciated :o
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18:29:11  <FLHerne> andythenorth: It still looks sandy to me :P
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18:29:54  <FLHerne> Is the idea to use the silo things instead?
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18:30:34  <andythenorth> it fits - more or less - with the mud tiles
18:32:17  <FLHerne> Just noticed your Small Wooden Hut doesn't :-(
18:32:26  <FLHerne> Wrong mud again :P
18:33:04  <andythenorth> wrong mud
18:33:34  <andythenorth> [shrug]
18:34:04  <FLHerne> Looks a bit odd if I surround the hut with other buildings... :-(
18:34:06  <andythenorth> planetmaker how do you feel about me adjusting opengfx mud tile?
18:34:59  <FLHerne> ...but OGFX mud is better! :-(
18:35:19  <andythenorth> it's better than CHIPS mud yes
18:35:25  <andythenorth> it's not better than original game mud
18:35:35  <planetmaker> In principle I have no big issue there...
18:35:39  <andythenorth> CHIPS mud is not great
18:35:44  * FLHerne has a new thing to pester about :D
18:35:50  <planetmaker> depends ofc a bit on what the adjustment comprises
18:35:52  <andythenorth> I could fix CHIPS mud, providing a new tile for opengfx also
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18:37:32  <andythenorth> I would make the mud more similar to colour of original graphics
18:37:48  <planetmaker> hm
18:37:49  <andythenorth> it would certainly fit with ok temperate opengfx
18:37:59  <andythenorth> I don't mind if you say no
18:38:05  <andythenorth> I'm just bored of being asked about it
18:38:09  <planetmaker> I've a bad visual phantasy :-)
18:38:13  <andythenorth> I can at least offer to change it :P
18:38:37  <FLHerne> Would it be possible for canals to be cheaper when overbuilding rivers?
18:38:42  <andythenorth> I also need to do the hotel sprites, they're horrible in opengfx
18:39:01  <andythenorth> wtf
18:39:19  <FLHerne> As no-one does it for practical reasons anyway, it wouldn't have a negative effect on gameplay...
18:39:19  <andythenorth> so with FISH canal-cost-parameter enabled
18:39:29  <andythenorth> building canal is £845 per tile
18:39:42  <andythenorth> build canal over river is £10625 per tile
18:39:43  <FLHerne> Oh, FISH has one now? :-)
18:39:55  * FLHerne checks
18:40:03  <andythenorth> clearly it is broken :P
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18:40:35  <FLHerne> Seemingly not :P
18:40:46  <FLHerne> :-( , even
18:41:58  <FLHerne> It can be useful for cosmetic purposes to canalise bits of river, but it costs too much. Therefore it should be cheaper. :D
18:42:39  <FLHerne> Flat docks to build on rivers would be useful, too
18:42:41  <andythenorth> +1
18:43:03  <andythenorth> why would you canalise a river anyway?  Rivers aren't useful
18:43:17  <FLHerne> They are with your nice fish :P
18:43:32  <andythenorth> they're almost impossible to use
18:43:40  <FLHerne> And then they look silly around docks, so I need to make them into canals
18:43:57  <andythenorth> you'll end up making all of it into canal
18:44:06  <andythenorth> @calc 10625 / 845
18:44:06  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 12.573964497
18:44:16  <andythenorth> but as canals are more than 12x cheaper, just build a canal
18:44:44  <andythenorth> possibly I need to look at base costs more
18:45:24  <FLHerne> How does charging more for something useful than something totally pointless make sense?
18:46:15  <FLHerne> A canal tile is ~4k, a canal tile on water is ~10k. That doesn't make sense :-(
18:47:53  <andythenorth> rivers are broken
18:48:08  <andythenorth> it's possibly a side effect of bulldozing water
18:48:48  <andythenorth> I can probably fix it with a base cost mod, but it will make it trivial to bulldoze the sea
18:48:50  <andythenorth> is my guess
18:51:09  <FLHerne> Also, it's annoying when rivers have corners next to slopes so locks don't work. Maybe there should be a thingum in the map generator so they don't :P
18:51:45  <andythenorth> yes, a thingum :P
18:52:13  <andythenorth> just file it under 'rivers are pointless' :P
18:52:56  <planetmaker> I think the statement with "rivers are pointless" goes right next to "all vehicles can as well be boxes" ;-)
18:53:12  <FLHerne> But they aren't, I can put log tugs on them
18:53:27  * FLHerne wants properly articulated log tugs, too :P
18:53:48  <planetmaker> I think andy simply wants to use the white water part of them for ocean liners - which is a terrible idea :-P
18:54:28  <planetmaker> it highly depends the map shape or so how much of rivers need to become canals to make them ship-able
18:54:55  <andythenorth> problems are
18:55:07  <andythenorth> (1) base costs may be broken (I need to confirm by reading ottd code)
18:55:17  <andythenorth> (2) building docks is 'meh' at best
18:55:17  <Chris_Booth> planetmaker: do you know what i can join openttdcoop PS but not join the smaller .stable?
18:55:27  <andythenorth> (3) rivers don't respawn
18:55:32  <Chris_Booth> my connection times out before I can download the map on .stable :S
18:55:43  <planetmaker> I don't, Chris_Booth and I've no idea why
18:56:01  <Chris_Booth> okay that is what I thought you would say
18:56:02  <andythenorth> (4) building the (insanely huge) locks is almost impossible on anything but totally flat maps
18:56:11  <andythenorth> is all
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18:56:13  <planetmaker> they're on differen servers and thus use different configs...
18:56:40  <Chris_Booth> I guess one has a longer timeout in the config
18:56:41  <planetmaker> andythenorth: build a lock on a river and try ;-)
18:56:52  <planetmaker> it *should* then re-spawn the river, no?
18:57:16  <andythenorth> yes
18:57:17  <andythenorth> it does
18:57:25  <andythenorth> but if I bulldoze the tile, no respawn
18:57:29  <FLHerne> (1) They are. (2) There should be size classes for boats. 'small' locks (river ones) should be for tugs and barges etc, liners etc should need the current type
18:57:45  <andythenorth> (2) won't be happening
18:57:50  <FLHerne> (3) They shouldn't be destroyable in the first place
18:58:00  <FLHerne> (4) see (2) :P
18:58:10  <FLHerne> Why not? :-)
18:59:33  <DDR> Rivers work on the Sim City 2000 school of fluid dynamics. ☺
19:00:10  *** NataS is now known as Dr_Tan
19:00:19  <andythenorth> FLHerne: the 'ocean speed / canal speed' newgrf property is considered sufficient
19:00:51  <Dr_Tan> but sim city 2000 has negative elevations
19:00:53  <FLHerne> Have a large/small property too?
19:00:57  <Dr_Tan> ottd does not
19:01:00  *** Dr_Tan is now known as Nat_aS
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19:01:29  <Nat_aS> more than one depth level
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19:02:34  <andythenorth> large/small is unlikely to be accepted
19:03:17  <FLHerne> Why not (again :-) )
19:03:27  <andythenorth> if you work through the logic, it's basically the same as 'watertypes' which have been rejected
19:04:42  <andythenorth> iirc
19:04:59  * andythenorth has no evidence
19:05:35  <Nat_aS> actualy
19:05:55  <Nat_aS> playing Sc2k once more, has made me wish terrain level worked more like ottd
19:06:00  <Nat_aS> with the building on hills
19:06:15  <FLHerne> Not really - small/large is hardly watertypes
19:06:46  <Nat_aS> as well as 64p map squares, and more complex roads/rails
19:07:30  <FLHerne> Single-tile locks would be better for rivers, but would look strange with big ships
19:08:08  <FLHerne> Equally, 'large' ships should have more space around them when non-colliding ships are invented
19:08:28  <andythenorth> large ships fail anyway
19:08:56  <Nat_aS> I'd rather see more complex docks for eye candy than ships with colisions and sizes and bothersome things like that
19:09:38  <FLHerne> But complex eyecandy docks look silly when they're surrounded by overlapping VLCCs :P
19:09:50  <Nat_aS> yes, that would be a problem
19:10:08  <Nat_aS> unless you could get boats to stop at diffrent piers on the same dock
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19:10:22  <andythenorth> you win the prize
19:10:29  <andythenorth> for reinventing multi-stop docks :)
19:10:32  <Nat_aS> also, it would be cool if you could get trains to prioritize specific platforms in stations.
19:10:35  <Nat_aS> lol
19:11:46  <Nat_aS> I just think it's silly that train stations get to be sprawling complex monstrosity’s, Airports come in several increasingly complex types, Even road stops have some variation, but docks take up just two tiles, and there is only one type
19:11:49  <Nat_aS> it makes me sad
19:12:09  <andythenorth> patch?
19:12:12  <Nat_aS> although i usually put container platforms next to them and play pretend.
19:12:20  <Nat_aS> there is a patch for that?
19:12:27  <andythenorth> only if you write one ;)
19:12:51  <andythenorth> in my experience, the ratio of 'complaints' to 'changes in openttd' is poor :P
19:12:57  <andythenorth> I work around it by complaining a lot
19:13:10  <Nat_aS> same here
19:13:20  <Nat_aS> I'm an artist not a coder, and a lazy one at that
19:13:24  <Nat_aS> but complaints are cheap.
19:13:27  <Nat_aS> :P
19:13:58  <andythenorth> what is an artist?
19:18:32  <Nat_aS> is this a rhetorical question or did I spell it wrong?
19:19:03  <andythenorth> it's a genuine question
19:19:10  <andythenorth> maybe platonic
19:19:48  <Nat_aS> in the context of game development, it means somebody who is too lazy to learn a programing language :P
19:20:22  <Nat_aS> whereas a programer is somebody who does not know how to make a GUI
19:20:36  * Nat_aS is still being snarky, apologies.
19:22:13  <CornishPasty> Artists don't know how to make a GUI
19:22:18  <CornishPasty> That's the job of UI/UX engineers
19:23:20  <andythenorth> in my world, there are only two distinctions
19:23:23  <andythenorth> people who make stuff
19:23:27  <andythenorth> and people who like SQL
19:23:30  <andythenorth> is all
19:25:24  <Nat_aS> I just notice a problem with open source is often people are specialized and don't know how to work outside there disciplines
19:25:49  <Nat_aS> like you will get things with wonderfull features but a shitty UI because the programers made things in a way that made sense only to them.
19:26:32  <Nat_aS> simutrans is my example here. The graphics are horrible, I blame programers for this, thinking you can just trace a 3d model and slap it down as a sprite
19:26:53  <Nat_aS> and then increase the resolution just because you can, without increasing detail.
19:26:59  * Nat_aS finishes his monthly rant
19:30:03  <opa> andy why they are mutually exclusive :)
19:30:08  <andythenorth> which?
19:30:12  <andythenorth> sql and making stuff?
19:30:17  <opa> yeah
19:30:29  <andythenorth> I don't know, what would the query be to find out? :)
19:30:45  <andythenorth> do a join or something and see if you have results from both sets
19:31:01  <Nat_aS> not always, but software is a complex thing, and involves many specialists.
19:31:05  <opa> just use cross join with union :)
19:31:09  <Nat_aS> specialists tend to focus on one area.
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19:36:41  <DDR> Nat_aS: My god, Simutrans is a mess of a game.
19:37:01  <DDR> When I tried it last, bridges worked more or less like they do in OpenTTD -- with one crucial difference.
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19:37:18  <DDR> There is nothing that tells you the relative height of the bridge-head as you build it.
19:37:42  <DDR> This makes crossing larger areas really entirely about random guessing.
19:38:15  <Nat_aS> the worst part is the fact it has almost all the cool features I want in OTTD
19:38:22  <DDR> Yah. :(
19:38:24  <Nat_aS> only with a horrible UI and graphics
19:38:26  <DDR> They're just unusable.
19:38:37  <Nat_aS> also, less game balanced
19:38:41  <DDR> Yeah.
19:38:41  <Nat_aS> it's hard to earn money for me
19:38:44  <Nat_aS> maybe I just suck
19:38:52  <DDR> I can't figure out how road stops work. :P
19:39:10  <DDR> I think I did once, but then I forgot and I can't figure it out now on my own.
19:39:14  <Nat_aS> the fact that factories stop producing if the next factory is not delivering to the market is :.
19:39:16  <Nat_aS> :/
19:39:26  <Nat_aS> BUT I CAN'T AFFORD TO COMPLETE THIS CHAIN YET
19:39:28  <Nat_aS> FFFFffffffffffffffffffffff
19:39:52  <Nat_aS> AND NOW I'M GONNA GO BANKRUPT BECAUSE YOU WONT PRODUCE ANYTHING
19:40:11  <andythenorth> sounds fun
19:40:15  <Nat_aS> i like that it has a proper cargo dist algorithm, but that part is just mean.
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19:40:34  <DDR> Yep.
19:40:49  <DDR> I mean, I'm sorry, but really... that's just bloody well mean.
19:40:58  <DDR> I know it's realistic, but it's not good game-play.
19:41:02  <Nat_aS> fake difficultly, ect
19:41:53  <DDR> And I don't think you can run diagonal rails parallel like you can in OpenTTD...
19:42:11  <Nat_aS> oh that too
19:42:34  <Nat_aS> actualy, there whole construction interface is rage inducing, esp when building paralell tracks at all.
19:42:44  <DDR> ayyyyy yes
19:42:53  <Nat_aS> good idea on paper, back idea in execution.
19:42:58  <Nat_aS> just let us click and drag
19:43:05  <Nat_aS> sim city got that right the first time.
19:43:19  <Nat_aS> (building long roads in OTTD is anoying too)
19:43:30  <DDR> I played the original Sim City once, non-emulated or anything.
19:43:42  <DDR> A few years ago.
19:44:04  <Nat_aS> Micropilis is a nice port
19:44:13  <Nat_aS> wish EA would allow the same to happen to 2k
19:44:14  <DDR> Nat_aS: I've found OpenTTD's roads were OK.
19:44:16  <Nat_aS> but they wont
19:44:21  <DDR> Yeah. :(
19:44:23  <Nat_aS> because they are the worst company in america
19:44:28  <Nat_aS> at least they put it on GOG
19:44:28  <DDR> I'm going to make my own City-Sim someday.
19:44:34  <DDR> I'm a programmer.
19:44:40  <Nat_aS> but it's the dos version
19:44:43  <Nat_aS> not the windows version
19:44:46  <Nat_aS> lame
19:44:48  <DDR> I'm working on a puzzle-game loosely based on cities in this game.
19:44:53  <DDR> Very loosely.
19:44:54  <Nat_aS> Oh, I'd like to help with that if I could
19:45:03  <Nat_aS> an open source sc2k clone would be awesome
19:45:21  <DDR> Nah, it's not going to be a clone... we can do so much better today.
19:45:57  <DDR> But it will have that isometric look. :)
19:46:06  <Nat_aS> well by clone I mean isometric lol
19:46:18  <Nat_aS> clone in the way people used to call FPSes doom clones
19:46:34  <DDR> Ah.
19:46:40  <DDR> doom-likes.
19:46:54  <DDR> I think the market (as it were) is open for more simulation games.
19:47:09  <DDR> I mean, OpenTTD is the last *good* simulator of it's type, really.
19:47:15  <Nat_aS> yeah
19:47:33  <DDR> Nothing these days seems to allow for the same huge world, open economic gameplay, and whatnot.
19:47:38  <Nat_aS> I hear sc5 is going to have individual pathfinding
19:47:56  <Nat_aS> from what I hear, it's gonna be Dwarf fortress levels of detail simulation wise.
19:47:59  <opa> is it under development?
19:48:01  <Nat_aS> which excites me
19:48:03  <Nat_aS> yes
19:48:05  <DDR> Sim City 4 was pretty decent with that.
19:48:10  <FLHerne> Hmm. How do I checkout a particular trunk revision with svn?
19:48:11  <Nat_aS> it's just gonna be called sim city though
19:48:13  <opa> i rembered that sc was discontinued
19:48:17  <Nat_aS> and it's gonna be a reboot
19:48:31  <Nat_aS> (reboot fells silly with a game that has no plot)
19:48:43  <Nat_aS> (but that's what they press is calling it because it wont have a number on it)
19:48:52  <Nat_aS> I am hopefull, but hesitant to trust EA
19:49:04  <DDR> But you HAVE to get the rush-hour expansion pack and you HAVE to get the fan-made NAM, because rush-hour shows you the paths that were found and NAM *vastly* improves the pathfinding algorithm.
19:49:06  <Nat_aS> worse case scenerio, it's gonna be a good game BUT only avalable on origin
19:49:25  <Nat_aS> and i'll have to not buy it on principle
19:49:27  <Nat_aS> ;-;
19:50:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24246 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Add [FS#5052-ish]: [NewGRF] Variable with the current max speed for vehicles.
19:50:15  <DDR> oo, I forgot about origin.
19:50:29  <DDR> I don't wanna install that.
19:51:12  <Nat_aS> yeah, it's spyware
19:51:21  <Nat_aS> also illegal in Germany apparently.
19:51:30  <DDR> I'm not against a little spying, but please ask me first.
19:51:31  <Nat_aS> Steam's evil twin.
19:51:37  <DDR> lol, yeah
19:52:38  <DDR> Hm, I just had a strong vision of OpenTTD with destructo-physics. There were trainbits flying everywhere...
19:53:31  <DDR> That's so never happening.
19:53:41  <Nat_aS> lol
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20:00:51  <Nat_aS> here's a question, would elevation be stored on the corners or centers of tiles?
20:01:09  <Nat_aS> in OTTD and I think simutrans it's corners, in SC2k it's centers.
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20:03:26  <DDR> I think I'd store data for all five points.
20:03:46  <DDR> Hm, maybe just corners.
20:04:13  <DDR> Nah, better go for all five.
20:04:34  <Nat_aS> so like RTC
20:04:41  <DDR> That lets soft and hard corners co-exist.
20:04:49  <Nat_aS> modern memory can handle that
20:04:53  <DDR> RTC?
20:05:03  <Nat_aS> Roler coaster tycoon.
20:05:06  <DDR> Ahh.
20:05:13  <DDR> Never actually played that one.
20:05:27  <Nat_aS> it's a pitty Chris sawyer couldn't make the engine work for Locomotion
20:05:30  <DDR> Saw it being played a few times, though. Looked pretty good.
20:05:39  <Nat_aS> it was origonaly going to be a sequel to TTD with a new engine
20:05:46  <Nat_aS> then he decided to use it for rolercoasters
20:05:55  <DDR> Oh, yeah, I remember that project name now.
20:05:58  <DDR> Foo. :(
20:06:03  <Nat_aS> but then when he tried to use the same engine for normal trains, it sucked
20:06:14  <Nat_aS> realistic curves didn't work well
20:06:28  <Nat_aS> and required traced 3d sprites
20:06:28  <DDR> heh
20:06:30  <Nat_aS> which are ugly
20:06:34  <DDR> Yeah.
20:06:40  <Nat_aS> well they worked in RTC, but not here
20:07:08  <DDR> RTC was a faster game, I guess.
20:08:31  <Nat_aS> yes
20:08:47  <DDR> Hm, no one ever said Sim City and OpenTTD couldn't get together... I'll make them both in the same game.
20:08:56  <DDR> Cars will *really* have to commute, this time.
20:09:05  <Nat_aS> yeah
20:09:07  <Nat_aS> that would be nice
20:09:14  <Nat_aS> modern computers can handle the pathfinding
20:09:28  <DDR> What they still struggle with is the movement.
20:09:28  <Nat_aS> I like the idea of retro graphics but modern simulation power
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20:12:34  <Nat_aS> I just wish toady had more support for any type of graphics period :P
20:17:57  <andythenorth> hmm
20:18:02  * andythenorth needs to hire programmers
20:18:09  <andythenorth> how is that done these days?
20:18:21  <Nat_aS> don't we all?
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20:18:26  <Nat_aS> usualy you hire people with money.
20:18:37  <Nat_aS> or the promise of money.
20:19:06  <andythenorth> I have £200-£300 per day, not excessive, but not peanuts
20:19:21  <Nat_aS> trading services for services can also work, but it leads to complications and is on shaky legal ground
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20:19:45  <andythenorth> I did say 'hire' ;)
20:20:42  <planetmaker> andythenorth, is that what the company pays or what the programmer gets?
20:20:59  <andythenorth> programmer gets that, but has to account for own tax
20:21:11  <andythenorth> unless it's a salaried route
20:21:24  <andythenorth> in which case less, but for a longer term contract
20:21:53  <andythenorth> and salaried provides paid holidays etc
20:22:42  <DDR> That is to say, I think moving everything around while doing the pathfinding is still difficult for modern machines. I think there is a boon here in multi-threading the application, though.
20:22:53  <DDR> bbl, I suddenly find myself home-brewing.
20:23:44  <FLHerne> Could someone explain why 'no. of breakdowns' is a Difficulty setting, 'no. of plane crashes' is Advanced?
20:24:01  * FLHerne gets baffled by the distribution of options
20:27:23  <Nat_aS> advanced settings are options added by OTTD
20:27:30  <Nat_aS> normal settings are shit that was there in TTD
20:27:39  <Nat_aS> IDK about TTDpatch
20:30:09  <planetmaker> FLHerne, hysterical raisins
20:30:38  <planetmaker> TTD had no adv. settings, only some difficulty thing. No difficulty setting was ever added afaik
20:31:09  <planetmaker> (and the difficulty setting window basically a load of cruft, totally not needed; it's all just settings)
20:31:33  <planetmaker> add an 'is' where appropriate ;-)
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20:33:54  <opa> why they haven't been merged?
20:34:13  <andythenorth> because is because
20:38:19  <andythenorth> bed
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20:46:51  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24247 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Fix: If loading of int-list settings fails, use the default.
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20:52:02  <Nat_aS> there are like 4 diffrent kind of settings
20:52:11  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24248 /trunk/src/ (error.h error_gui.cpp): -Codechange: Move ErrorMessageData class definition to header file.
20:52:27  <Nat_aS> the normal settings, the difficulty settings, the advanced settings, and the .cfg settings.
20:52:36  <Nat_aS> what a mess
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20:55:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24249 /trunk/src/ (error.h error_gui.cpp): -Codechange: Split the extraction of current DParams from the ErrorMessageData constructor into a separate function.
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20:58:01  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24250 /trunk/src/ (error.h error_gui.cpp settings.cpp): -Fix [FS#5154]: Do not immediately display error messages from parsing the cfg file, but schedule them for displaying after the GUI is prepared for it.
21:14:26  <Terkhen> good night
21:21:02  <Chris_Booth> gn
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22:31:42  <Eddi|zuHause>  <michi_cc> The vast majority of future predictions fail <-- fun fact: all companies that made product placement in Blade Runner have disappeared by now :p
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22:48:00  <Rhamphoryncus> Eddi|zuHause: like coca cola?
22:51:59  <Rhamphoryncus> Oh, they had a major misstep, but recovered
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