Config
Log for #openttd on 28th May 2012:
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00:13:12  <Davidt> sorry what?
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00:17:31  <Hazzard> lol
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06:16:05  <NGC3982> morning.
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09:39:46  <Knogle> How can you see gamescript debugging on a dedicated server?
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10:42:12  <__ln__> is "ein bißchen" literally "a small bite"?
10:43:16  <Markk> More of a "one bit".
10:43:26  <Markk> According to Wiktionary.
10:43:30  <Markk> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bi%C3%9Fchen
10:43:48  <Markk> Or yes, a small bite seems correct.
10:44:17  <Markk> __ln__: Er spricht nur ein bisschen Englisch.
10:44:17  <Markk> He only speaks a little English.
10:45:54  <frosch123> __ln__: yes, just like a english "bit" is also a "bite"
10:46:05  <Markk> ah
10:50:50  <__ln__> alright, thanks.
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11:50:53  <Rubidium> what shall we do this WITH!!! Monday?
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12:08:13  <Alberth> break the light barrier
12:18:47  <Eddi|zuHause> erect a light barrier
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13:16:04  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: frosch * r24295 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix: STRING1 probably means STRING1.
13:18:31  <Sacro> \o/
13:19:21  <Belugas> hi
13:20:36  <Alberth> hi
13:21:11  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: frosch * r24296 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Codechange: No need to pass a member variable to a member function.
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13:23:24  <Belugas> hello Alberth
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13:24:43  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: frosch * r24297 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Split DParam-setup for drawing setting values to a separate function.
13:26:50  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: frosch * r24298 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt settings_gui.cpp): -Feature: Display default values for adv. settings in the settings description.
13:37:03  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: frosch * r24299 /trunk/src/object_gui.cpp: -Change [FS#5057]: Center object previews in 1- and 2-view selectors based on the 4-view selector layout.
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14:33:47  <Adrian> When i stop serviving a station (i.e. picking up cargo), how long does it take for this cargo to no longer being listed? I built a coal station close to another one and rerouted my trains there. But i don't want coal to be wasted, waiting at the former station, along with the appaling rating it gets there.
14:34:00  <Adrian> *servicing
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14:36:39  <frosch123> currently there is no other way than deleting the old station
14:38:17  <Adrian> i see, can i rebuilt it right after, or will the association return with it?
14:42:09  <Adrian> Ok just fired up the game, the association returns with it. So no luck. The station is big and otherwise important, so i can't sacrifice it. Either way, thanks for your answer.
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16:47:49  <Terkhen> hello
16:48:02  <andythenorth> lo
16:54:21  <Alberth> hi hi
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17:23:12  * Alberth is very happy with moving guests in the FreeRCT program
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17:24:28  <Alberth> hi andy, did you have a chance to look at the trs python files yet? I am somewhat stuck on how to bring it to life tbh
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17:25:42  <Wolf01> hello
17:26:13  <andythenorth> Alberth: sorry no
17:26:28  <Alberth> basically it's a library of functionality that you need to talk to through some network connection, eg http or xmpp, or so. Unfortunately, I have no idea how to make the latter
17:26:52  <andythenorth> have you tried poking at one of the off-the-shelf python frameworks?
17:27:20  <andythenorth> for example, bottle or flask?
17:27:25  <andythenorth> just to teach yourself?
17:27:35  <andythenorth> http://bottlepy.org/docs/dev/
17:27:48  <andythenorth> http://flask.pocoo.org/
17:28:04  <Alberth> I had a look at cherrypy  iirc
17:28:06  <andythenorth> if you don't mind that I don't actually know what I'm talking about, I can explain the basic concepts
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17:29:15  <Alberth> I don't understand how such a framework can help me transport data from user-app to my app and back
17:29:33  <andythenorth> cherrypy looks interesting and nice, but non-standard
17:29:38  <andythenorth> I've heard of it before
17:29:55  <Alberth> or, if you're talking a web-frontend, how to connect to my app from a web-app
17:30:08  <andythenorth> does your app handle the reading and writing of data already?
17:30:34  <Alberth> I had JSON in mind for now
17:30:46  <Alberth> a simple set of files
17:30:50  <andythenorth> k
17:31:24  <andythenorth> so, with caveat that I don't know what I'm talking about...
17:31:38  <Alberth> that's ok, I don't know either :p
17:31:39  <andythenorth> the basic concepts are:
17:32:06  <andythenorth> - request.  This is a http request with header, post / get vars etc.  Mostly you don't need to worry about this, the browser + server handle it
17:32:21  <andythenorth> - response.  What you return to the browser for any given request
17:33:08  <andythenorth> - routing.  For a given request, you need to know how to handle it, e.g which classes might be called etc.  This is equivalent to a dispatcher pattern.
17:33:18  * Alberth nods
17:33:24  <andythenorth> - authentication / permissions.  Security stuff :P
17:33:43  <andythenorth> - session.  A way of holding state temporarily, a black art to me :P
17:33:59  <Alberth> REST has no session state :)
17:34:03  <TinoDidriksen> What do you want to do?
17:34:23  <Alberth> write a new translation service
17:35:01  <Alberth> with a backend with the real functionality, and possibly several front-ends
17:35:17  <Alberth> ie a web service, but also a download to a desktop machine
17:35:52  <TinoDidriksen> Centrally coordinated via the web service, or working on offline data?
17:35:53  <andythenorth> just provide the web app for the desktop machine :P
17:36:30  <Alberth> the backend has the data, and handles updates, etc
17:36:54  <Alberth> you can ask for things that need to be translated and/or send translated stuff back
17:37:00  <andythenorth> so the backend is an app with classes / methods....
17:37:18  <andythenorth> and your WSGI app needs to dispatch requests and return responses to/from those
17:37:19  <Alberth> yeah sort of RPC
17:38:01  <Alberth> I am trying to make the backend, but I need something so I can talk to it, and do tests etc :)
17:38:16  <TinoDidriksen> SQL storage, web frontend with exposed callbacks/RPC for desktop apps to communicate with.
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17:38:43  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: translators * r24300 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
17:38:43  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:38:43  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: belarusian - 2 changes by Wowanxm
17:38:43  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: czech - 1 changes by Eskymak
17:38:43  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: danish - 10 changes by beruic
17:38:45  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
17:38:45  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
17:38:53  <Alberth> I was thinking simple files instead of SQL, but yeah
17:39:25  <TinoDidriksen> Files will have locking and record deletion issues.
17:39:30  <Alberth> I am not sure it should also be a web frontend, or that the web-frontend should be separate
17:39:46  <TinoDidriksen> Why reimplement SQL when you can just use SQL, or SQLite...
17:40:34  <TinoDidriksen> Communication with the desktop app would almost certainly have to be done via a web frontend anyway.
17:41:10  <TinoDidriksen> Everyone has port 80 and 443 open; a custom backend service with a different port would be harder to work with, and much harder to secure.
17:41:44  <andythenorth> SQL or MySQL?
17:41:45  <Alberth> oh, 'web frontend' is more than just using port 80, for me
17:42:04  <TinoDidriksen> andythenorth, MySQL is one SQL variant...
17:42:09  <andythenorth> hence the question
17:42:23  <TinoDidriksen> Personally I'd use PostgreSQL
17:42:27  <andythenorth> Rubidium: what do openttd servers have available right now?
17:42:46  <Alberth> SQL is a generic name for all forms of sql engines
17:43:10  <Rubidium> andythenorth: available for/as what?
17:43:19  <andythenorth> database technology
17:43:29  <TinoDidriksen> Alberth, sure web frontend is more than just port 80, but port 80 vs. firewalls is the reason to use a web frontend.
17:43:33  <andythenorth> might as well use what's already deployed
17:44:40  <Alberth> TinoDidriksen: yep, http is a smart choice, but not necessarily with html
17:44:59  <andythenorth> Alberth: personally I'd try pyramid for this project, it's the python framework du jour, and I need to learn it anyway
17:45:00  <Alberth> as it just exchanges machine oriented data
17:45:01  <TinoDidriksen> Nah, JSON for desktop communication.
17:45:25  <andythenorth> http://www.pylonsproject.org/
17:45:32  <Rubidium> andythenorth: at least MySQL
17:45:35  <andythenorth> I've built the hello world app for pyramid
17:45:44  <Alberth> but what do you do at the user end?
17:45:54  <Alberth> you need some program there too??
17:45:55  <Rubidium> no idea about other SQLs being knowingly used, though the CF probably uses some sort as well
17:46:06  <andythenorth> Alberth: which bit of user end?
17:46:11  <Alberth> or you need to make a web app with forms etc
17:46:13  <andythenorth> yes
17:46:18  <andythenorth> assuming you have a browser client
17:46:23  <andythenorth> I assume you want one :P
17:46:33  <TinoDidriksen> It's fairly trivial to throw together a Qt app that communicates with a HTTP server over JSON.
17:47:10  <TinoDidriksen> But why a desktop app? Clunky stuff...
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17:48:28  <andythenorth> Alberth: at the simplest you need one web form
17:48:37  <andythenorth> it might even be static html, although I doubt it
17:48:49  <Alberth> you have automatic things going on, eg VCSes that deliver changed strings, and pull translated strings
17:49:00  <TinoDidriksen> And, what's wrong with the current translation system?
17:49:14  <Alberth> it only does openttd, and not all newgrfs
17:49:35  <TinoDidriksen> Isn't it easier to add that than to start from scratch?
17:49:50  <Alberth> its author says no
17:50:02  <andythenorth> it probably isn't a repeatable deployment, at a guess
17:50:02  <TinoDidriksen> Odd
17:50:15  <andythenorth> if it's like bananas, building a dev environment is near-impossibl
17:50:17  <andythenorth> +e
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17:50:53  <Alberth> bananas is newer :p
17:51:14  <Rubidium> "tree time's a charm" works in software development as well. Usually stuff gets better after iterations as problems get figured out during development which are tricky to fix without redoing it completely
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17:51:58  * andythenorth is on hmm...the fourth rebuild of some big apps :P
17:52:03  <Alberth> not when I haven't studied the first two :)
17:52:21  <Alberth> which is one of the things I need to do :)
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17:53:19  <andythenorth> reliable, repeatable builds are the number lesson I've learnt about web apps
17:53:34  <andythenorth> all other arguments about technology are mostly near-religious and lack evidence :P
17:53:39  <Alberth> but ok, a bit of pyramid thus
17:53:52  <andythenorth> but not being able to build the app for dev / production is bad bad bad
17:54:09  <andythenorth> no different to making sure openttd always compiles :P
17:54:52  <andythenorth> you can pick pretty much any technology, but if you can't build without doing funny rituals and praying for luck, your app is screwed
17:54:58  <Alberth> yeah, but web apps are soooooooo simple ...........  :D     (famous last words)
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17:55:24  <andythenorth> they are :P
17:55:58  <Alberth> it depends on the expected life time of the application :p
17:58:14  <andythenorth> +1
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18:04:22  <andythenorth> Alberth: so the app also needs to write to VCS?
18:04:28  <andythenorth> and possibly read from VCS?
18:05:16  <Alberth> no, you run an app that does that, and exchange data with 'my' app
18:05:44  <Alberth> that way I don't need access to your repo, and I don't need to care about VCSes :p
18:06:24  <andythenorth> hmm
18:06:47  <andythenorth> how do commits make it to main ottd repo?
18:06:51  <andythenorth> or newgrf repos?
18:07:09  <andythenorth> developer explicitly pulls?
18:07:13  <Alberth> you run an app that queries updated translations
18:07:23  <andythenorth> so an update / merge app
18:07:51  <Alberth> that seems the simplest solution to me
18:08:06  <andythenorth> hmm
18:08:25  <andythenorth> have you seen the fetch_src_and_build.sh script in BANDIT?
18:08:33  <andythenorth> probably doesn't need to be much more complicated than that :P
18:09:01  * Alberth looks at the file
18:09:15  <andythenorth> just curl changes, diff, save?
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18:10:49  <Alberth> it probably needs a bit local file recosntruction too, as I don't make assumptions on the used string file format
18:11:15  <Alberth> (well, I do, but as few as possible :) )
18:11:16  <andythenorth> so pull json?
18:11:30  <andythenorth> xml :P
18:11:36  <andythenorth> json is probably good for this
18:11:36  <Alberth> yes, in some standard form
18:11:51  <Alberth> xml means you can use xmpp :p
18:13:59  <andythenorth> hmm
18:14:04  * andythenorth needs a picture
18:14:21  <andythenorth> 2 mins
18:21:20  <andythenorth> Alberth: is it this? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3041/new_wt.png
18:21:29  <andythenorth> I know that's simple :P
18:22:43  <Alberth> it is :)    but it has nice darkened edges :p
18:23:15  <Alberth> but that's globally the idea, an app that does 'it', and stuff around it to query/access it
18:24:41  <Alberth> you and Tino see it speak html for a browser too, I was thinking to add an app for that too
18:24:56  <andythenorth> well
18:25:00  <andythenorth> you can have it speak html
18:25:10  <Alberth> so I don't have the usual html generation mess in the app
18:25:13  <andythenorth> or you can have it speak very limited html, lots of json, and make it an AJAX app
18:25:29  <andythenorth> which is how twitter et al works
18:25:42  <andythenorth> but it's not my taste because I don't get on brilliantly with javascript :P
18:25:50  <Alberth> mostly they don't, at my machine :p
18:26:10  <TinoDidriksen> andythenorth, learn jQuery...JS is quite fun with that.
18:26:19  <andythenorth> I have
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18:26:26  <andythenorth> approximately
18:26:41  <andythenorth> keeping state in the DOM still hurts my brain
18:26:44  <andythenorth> it seems insane to me :P
18:27:10  <andythenorth> 'write your entire app by shuffling things on and off <li> tags' :P
18:27:15  <andythenorth> I know there are other, better ways
18:27:46  <andythenorth> Alberth: a jquery app means you can do the whole thing in JSON
18:28:01  <andythenorth> but parsing the json to html is also trivial
18:28:09  <andythenorth> or just fetching the raw data
18:29:23  <Alberth> I am sure it is, but I want to focus on the back-end, not on a frontend
18:29:46  <andythenorth> k, so allowing for large current dose of real life, I can help
18:29:47  <Alberth> perhaps I should write the vcs interface app
18:30:06  <TinoDidriksen> I would make a frontend sketch or mockup first, to ensure the backend can actually do everything the frontend will need.
18:30:20  <andythenorth> Alberth: got a repo?
18:30:38  <Alberth> I have plenty repos, just not for trs :p
18:30:43  <andythenorth> k
18:30:53  <andythenorth> well pull or download twitter bootstrap, as we'll need it later :P
18:30:54  <andythenorth> http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/
18:31:11  <andythenorth> it means trs will look like every other web app made in 2012, but meh, it's easy and works
18:32:10  <andythenorth> also, we should use chameleon for templating, because I know it
18:32:29  <andythenorth> you probably have chameleon already for BANDIT
18:32:51  <andythenorth> BANDIT is abusing a html templating engine to write nml :P
18:33:26  <andythenorth> BANDIT could be a web app, all it needs to do is 'return (templated nml)' instead of 'codecs.write (templated nml)'
18:36:04  * Alberth has never run BANDIT
18:36:20  <andythenorth> it's worth a try :)
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18:48:40  <Knogle> How can you see gamescript debugging on a dedicated server?
18:52:04  <Alberth> perhaps you can post a question in the AI/script development forum
18:54:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd expect you can yank up some debug level to get the script output on stderr
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18:59:12  <Knogle> I was hoping there was a debug command like -d ai=X, but for gamescripts.
18:59:22  <Knogle> but thanks, I'll try the forums.
18:59:46  <Alberth> try --help
19:00:07  <Alberth> and you get a dump of available debug categories
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19:15:01  <Knogle> --help isn't much help really
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19:22:50  <frosch123> List of debug facility names:
19:22:51  <frosch123> driver, grf, map, misc, net, sprite, oldloader, npf, yapf, freetype, script, sl, gamelog, desync, console
19:22:57  <frosch123> ^^ thats the important part of --help
19:23:44  <Knogle> all it I see is:   -d [[fac=]lvl[,...]]= Debug mode
19:24:01  <Knogle> anyway, which one is for game scripts? lol
19:24:05  <frosch123> yep, and you need -d script=4
19:24:15  <Knogle> thanks a lot frosch123 :)
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19:25:46  <frosch123> 4 means all, you can reduce it to only get the output of GSLog::Warning or Error
19:26:47  <Knogle> Great, thanks!
19:49:20  <frosch123> night
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20:24:20  <andythenorth> FIRS farms are still boring :P
20:25:00  <Terkhen> make them smaller
20:25:05  <Terkhen> and with bigger clusters
20:25:12  <Terkhen> :P
20:30:48  <andythenorth> the clustering seems to have gone astray during the nml conversion
20:30:52  <andythenorth> I need to add it back in
20:31:33  <andythenorth> or at least, the part that scales by map size seems to be missing
20:31:49  <andythenorth> maybe I just need YACD in my game
20:31:59  <Terkhen> yeah, that would be awesome :P
20:32:14  <andythenorth> the lack of YACD is dull
20:32:22  * andythenorth wonders if it compiles with current trunk
20:32:44  <Rubidium> andythenorth: don't wonder, I full expect it to fail to apply
20:32:48  <Terkhen> I seriously doubt it
20:32:56  * andythenorth was going to just test it :P
20:32:56  <Terkhen> it would be a miracle :P
20:33:12  <Terkhen> you could spend some time updating it to current trunk though :)
20:33:20  <Terkhen> s/time/weeks/
20:33:23  <andythenorth> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1003998#p1003998
20:34:20  <andythenorth> hmm
20:34:29  * andythenorth hasn't figured github out yet
20:37:30  <andythenorth> hmm, some failures for https://github.com/benjeffery/openttd/compare/master...yacd.diff
20:37:33  <andythenorth> not many
20:37:57  <Rubidium> that's likely not the official one
20:38:01  <andythenorth> I assume compiling a failed patch is silly?
20:38:10  <andythenorth> it's not the official one
20:38:48  <Rubidium> andythenorth: usually it is
20:38:57  * andythenorth ponders a fake YACD using only subsidies
20:39:12  <andythenorth> capitalism (price incentive) vs central planning (YACD)
20:39:16  <andythenorth> :P
20:40:18  <andythenorth> no need to route each packet
20:41:29  <andythenorth> also....bed time
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20:46:15  * Terkhen ponders that pondering and then leaving without giving time to comment is not very useful
20:46:19  <Terkhen> also, good night
20:47:02  <Chris_Booth> If you notice this notice, you will notice that this notice is not worth noticing.
20:48:02  <rails> darnit
20:48:18  <Chris_Booth> did you notice the note rails ?
20:48:27  *** KritiK [~Maxim@128-72-242-150.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
20:48:57  <rails> if i really have to notify you about my noticing the notice that you notice'd to everyone
20:48:58  <rails> yes
20:49:31  <CornishPasty> yo dawg...
20:51:00  <Chris_Booth> CornishPasty you are now tax free!
20:51:07  <CornishPasty> Yeeh!
20:51:45  <CornishPasty> Am I a product of designated origin yet?
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21:05:38  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:10:18  <MrZombie> When ever I try downloading Superlib with SVN I get this error: 'http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/superlib/repository' path not found
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21:24:56  <NGC3982> http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/4299056_460s.jpg
21:25:28  <CornishPasty> NGC3982: rofl
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