Log for #openttd on 21st July 2012:
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00:11:21  <Wolf01> 'night
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04:05:07  <Diablo> hi
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04:12:31  <Diablo> !rules
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05:59:54  <Wolf01> hello
06:06:51  <Rubidium> 'ola
06:14:26  <Wolf01> uhm, I'm trying to open the in-line volume control of my stereo headpohones because it has a false contact, I can't find a weak spot, I think I'll resort to violence
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06:26:38  <Wolf01> opened! the good new is that the cables are ok, the bad new is that the problem seem to be the trimmer :(
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06:31:06  <Wolf01> hello Alberth
06:32:47  <Alberth> hi Wolf01
06:33:17  <Alberth> it's quiet, no new posts in the openttd forums even
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06:45:02  <Rubidium> Alberth: then continue with zbase and let your computer make some noise
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06:55:16  <Alberth> that would be mostly the fan, as building zbasebuild takes ages :)
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06:57:47  <Alberth> o/ LordAro
06:57:57  <LordAro> hai Alberth
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08:07:21  <Terkhen> good morning
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08:34:12  <Sleepie> moin
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09:29:22  <planetmaker> moin
09:40:50  <dihedral> oi
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09:46:48  <frosch123> hmm, what debian package might contain /usr/include/mysql/mysql.h
09:47:11  <frosch123> libmysqlclient-dev maybe
09:47:40  <frosch123> hmm, oh, i already have that file
09:48:21  <frosch123> no, i do not... wrong window
09:50:46  <frosch123> yay, success
09:51:05  <Alberth> just switch windows until you find it :)
09:55:05  <frosch123> does svn 1.7 support externals for single files meanwhile?
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10:05:14  <Rubidium> frosch123:
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10:06:20  <Rubidium> though it doesn't seem to exist for sid; it does exist for wheezy and experimental
10:10:54  <Sleepie> frosch123: <- from there it says yes, but only in th same repo, no inter-repo support, see last paragraph
10:11:02  <Sleepie> +e
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10:13:43  <frosch123> symbolic links are already supported by svn 1.4
10:13:57  <frosch123> but that's not an external
10:18:08  <Sleepie> yes more a kind of internal
10:19:54  <Alberth> If 1.6 didn't have it, I wouldn't expect it in 1.7, they have problems enough removing all .svn directores in all sub-root directories
10:21:28  <Sleepie> which is fortunately the case since 1.7
10:27:36  <frosch123> ottd 0.7 looks awkward
10:28:42  <Alberth> :)
10:28:57  <Alberth> try 0.6, it has a funny AI
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10:53:59  <Alberth> FLHerne: your harbour picture in the CHIPS thread  seems to suggest to me you want concrete under your rail tracks
11:01:57  <FLHerne> Alberth: Between the rails in CHIPS? Or is that a comment on NuTracks ballast? Or both? :P
11:02:52  <Alberth> under the diagonal tracks + crossings north of the ship depot
11:03:47  <FLHerne> Not really - that's a 3rd-rail electrified mainline :P
11:03:58  <Sleepie> maybe even only under the diagonals
11:04:04  <FLHerne> Would be useless as a loading pad :P
11:04:19  <Sleepie> just eyecandy
11:04:37  <FLHerne> I'd like half-tile triangles to fit between the station and mainline though :-)
11:04:41  <Alberth> you see often rail tracks fully embedded in the pavement in industrial areas
11:05:08  <FLHerne> Alberth: Yes, but not 90mph mainlines :P
11:05:16  <Alberth> :)
11:05:20  <FLHerne> That would be dangerous :-(
11:05:40  <Alberth> the concrete may jump up :p
11:06:01  <FLHerne> People would step on the 3rd-rail, too...
11:06:10  <Sleepie> ouch..
11:06:12  <Alberth> yeah, not a good idea
11:07:42  * FLHerne considers triangle-overlapping tiles
11:07:52  <FLHerne> Worthwhile?
11:08:26  <Alberth> I never make eye-candy, so don't ask me :)
11:08:33  <Sleepie> would look more pleasing imho
11:09:08  <FLHerne> Ok. Should be easy to draw. Was short of object ideas anyway :P
11:09:17  * FLHerne goes out to walk the rat
11:09:29  <FLHerne> See you later :-)
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11:33:27  <LordAro> wait, what?
11:41:06  * Alberth waits
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11:51:16  <FLHerne> Back :-)
11:53:51  <FLHerne> It's finally stopped raining :D
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11:59:00  <Alberth> wb :)
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11:59:29  <Alberth> FLHerne:  what I think it needs are stacks of things and stuff. The docks are way too clean
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12:00:26  <FLHerne> Alberth: That's only because the train just left :P
12:01:27  <Alberth> it did not even leave empty pallets?
12:02:38  <FLHerne> Tell andythenorth to make it do that, then...?
12:03:08  <Alberth> I remembered someone had run out of objects to draw :p
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12:04:18  <FLHerne> But objects can't measure cargo waiting at all, that's a station kind of thing
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12:04:51  <Alberth> some stacks are part of the docks :p
12:05:08  <FLHerne> That's a dock thing, then :P
12:05:20  <Alberth> oh, fishing nets can be added too
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12:09:38  <Sleepie> and I would also overbuild the left shores in the habour
12:11:50  <FLHerne> Still a dock thing. I'm just using/modifying/drawing variations of various sprites from CHIPS & FIRS and recoding them as objects
12:12:07  <FLHerne> Sleepie Exactly for that reason :P
12:12:37  <FLHerne> CHIPS can't do that, that's why I need to finish doing the objects :P
12:12:50  <Alberth> 'various sprites' don't have cargo lying around?
12:12:58  <Sleepie> cool
12:14:21  <FLHerne> Alberth: They do. andythenorth has them for 'amount of cargo waiting' in CHIPS
12:14:49  <FLHerne> That picture demonstrates the need for NewObjects, not their use :P
12:15:50  <Sleepie> yep the only downside is that the list of newgrfs loaded gets longer and longer until you reach the current limit
12:16:34  <Sleepie> which afaik cannot be lifted, because it would break multiplayer
12:17:20  <FLHerne> Chill's PP has a much higher limit, and doesn't break multiplayer :P
12:17:54  <Sleepie> I don't know never played CPP
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12:18:54  <frosch123> FLHerne: ofc it does
12:19:27  <FLHerne> frosch123: How so?
12:19:46  <frosch123> it will only transmit the first part of the grfs and drop the other ones
12:19:54  <frosch123> so, once you use too many grfs, multiplayer will fail
12:20:12  <Sleepie> because it only uses one packet for it iirc
12:20:33  <frosch123> more specifically a udp packet
12:20:41  <Sleepie> yep
12:20:53  <FLHerne> In that case, add separate limits for single-player games and servers? :P
12:20:54  <frosch123> though maybe it only breaks the server list
12:21:09  <Sleepie> so question is can this be changed "easyly"
12:21:34  <Sleepie> or what FLHerne  said
12:21:35  <Alberth> FLHerne: you don't want to have different game files for SP and MP, I think
12:21:49  <Sleepie> fair enough Alberth
12:21:58  <frosch123> Sleepie: experience tells that everyone who reaches the newgrf limit does not know what he is doing with them
12:22:07  <frosch123> it's like the mapsize limit
12:22:19  <frosch123> there are some people requesting 16kx16k maps
12:22:25  <frosch123> while 2kx2k is already utterly useless
12:22:47  <FLHerne> Alberth: Keep the files identical, but forbid loading ones with >x NewGrfs on a server
12:23:13  <Alberth> FLHerne: how? a savegame contains references to all loaded newgrfs
12:23:13  <FLHerne> frosch123: I hit the limit, and I know what I'm doing with them :P
12:23:31  <Sleepie> frosch123: personally I think that was true in the past, but now there are a lot of little grfs popping up
12:23:58  <Alberth> FLHerne: as said, I don't think you want some magically unloadable files just because you use them in a different context
12:24:31  <Sleepie> and even if they are just eyecandy you can reach the limit quite fast without loading everything available
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12:25:25  <FLHerne> Alberth: Add a parameter for 'max SP NewGRFs', at MP limit by default?
12:25:41  <frosch123> anyway, noone stepped up to even fix fs#5158
12:25:47  <FLHerne> Then it wouldn't confuse people, especially with these fancy description strings :P
12:26:00  <FLHerne> @fs 5158
12:26:00  <DorpsGek> FLHerne:
12:26:20  <Alberth> FLHerne: x.sav by itself does not show whether it is loadable in MP
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12:27:27  <FLHerne> Alberth: It doesn't show that it needs obsure_unavailable_thingum_v283.grf either :P
12:27:28  <Alberth> But the problem is better solved by a fundamental fix than this hacking into different types of save games
12:28:10  <Alberth> FLHerne: yeah, it's bad, I'd like to fix that too, let's throw away newgrfs
12:28:26  <Alberth> which by the way solves your loading problem nicely too
12:28:36  <frosch123> just restrict loading of newgrfs to a single one
12:28:44  <Alberth> the baseset :D
12:28:52  <frosch123> one baseset, one newgrf, one gs, one ai
12:29:04  <FLHerne> Alberth: Removes the developers' excuse of 'that can be done in a convoluted way by NewGRFs' though :P
12:29:06  <Sleepie> then the baseset must be extended massively :P
12:30:10  <Sleepie> for it would help if many of the little grfs could be combined just to a few ones
12:30:27  <Sleepie> +now
12:31:22  <Alberth> it probably gets terribly complicated, much more than fixing the limit would be my guess
12:32:15  <Sleepie> yeah probably, also all people involved must be willing to work together on a bigger thing and so on
12:33:13  <Sleepie> Alberth: what do you think how complicated the change in the network code would be?
12:33:36  <Alberth> I don't know at all
12:34:24  <Alberth> You'd have to allow for receiving several UDP packets, with just some of the newgrfs. You can have some missing, and receive some double
12:35:13  <Alberth> you need a mechanism to know how many to expect, and a check whether you got all
12:35:58  <Sleepie> ok so there should be already things that work that way
12:36:34  <Alberth> I don't even know why it uses UDP instead of TCP
12:36:48  <Sleepie> maybe I should look myself at the network code
12:36:48  <Alberth> which would seem easier to me at first sight
12:37:16  <Sleepie> maybe because it works better with weaker connections
12:37:47  <Alberth> how would that be?
12:37:51  <frosch123> Alberth: it's about queryiing all servers without authentication
12:38:32  <Alberth> ah, ok, that explains using UDP :)
12:39:27  <Alberth> Sleepie: so a bunch of UDP packets gives nice options for a DOS attack
12:40:17  <Sleepie> yep
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12:45:48  <Rubidium> actually, I think a ChillPP MP server with too many NewGRFs will hit an assert, or if it doesn't, never advertise properly
12:47:12  <Rubidium> Alberth: the limit is fixed ;)
12:48:01  <Rubidium> and with the nature of UDP, receiving multiple packets from another party without packet loss is significantly less likely
12:48:03  <Alberth> I was not going to unfix it ;)
12:48:36  * FLHerne wanders off
12:48:44  <FLHerne> Stuff to do :P
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12:49:03  <Rubidium> and it uses UDP because a certain operating system has/had a limit of connections that could be made with a single binary (in the non-server version)
12:49:38  <Rubidium> which meant that a server wouldn't be visible anymore after a few hours
12:49:55  <Rubidium> but there is a relatively easy way to solve the whole issue. Just increase the MTU of the internet
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12:55:20  <frosch123> Rubidium: submit a patch to the internet authority
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13:30:35  <Sleepie> tea time see you later
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13:52:22  <Wolf01> me too
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14:09:51  <andythenorth> can we script map gen?
14:14:06  <Alberth> would that give anything more sane results?
14:15:11  <andythenorth> tie it to GS
14:15:13  <andythenorth> as a dep
14:15:22  <andythenorth> 'generate 2 large cities for this GS'
14:15:27  <andythenorth> etc
14:31:00  <Eddi|zuHause> no, but you should be able to found towns afterwards if there are not enough
14:32:31  <andythenorth> meh
14:32:35  <andythenorth> can I remove towns as well? :P
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14:46:56  <MNIM> sadly, not without the scenario editor
14:54:00  <andythenorth> quiet here
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14:57:59  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: your better bet is to just make a scenario for such a special case
14:58:29  <andythenorth> I made a scenario once
14:58:30  <andythenorth> never again
14:58:47  <andythenorth> the most boring thing....ever
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14:59:23  <Alberth> at least it is done faster than coding a baseset :p
15:00:46  <andythenorth> coding is interesting
15:01:01  <andythenorth> hmm
15:01:08  <andythenorth> I might have a few hours of coding time this weekened
15:01:25  * andythenorth considers: nml FISH, or start a GS project?
15:01:35  <Alberth> you know a base set is just real srpites, right? :)
15:01:44  <Alberth> *sprites
15:01:49  <andythenorth> I have edited opengfx yes ;)
15:01:55  <andythenorth> GS, I need a buddy
15:02:00  <andythenorth> FISH less so :P
15:02:29  <andythenorth> I have 3 or 4 GS ideas
15:03:32  <Alberth> that's too much for a few hours coding
15:03:54  <andythenorth> I was only proposing to do one of them :P
15:04:19  <Alberth> btw, I just read a page at the Django site, looks interesting to try one time
15:04:36  <andythenorth> Bananasaasas
15:04:53  <planetmaker> bananasssssss. my preciousssss
15:12:30  <andythenorth> I have GS ideas like:
15:13:02  <andythenorth> - metro: build a city network capable of transporting x passengers per year
15:13:36  <andythenorth> - transcontinental: build west from a large east coast city to the other coast (large empty-ish map needed)
15:14:52  <andythenorth> - air mogul: become the biggest airline on the map by 1950 (starts before planes are are available, so have to begin with trains etc)
15:16:21  <Alberth> hmm, we could have lots of small islands that you have to bridge. Then you cannot have bridges over tracks.
15:17:22  <Alberth> how is "transcontinental" interesting, just a drag/drop to the other side is enough, isn't it?
15:17:35  <andythenorth> very tight time limit
15:17:46  <Alberth> build while paused :p
15:17:50  <andythenorth> start with only one large city in the east, few industries
15:18:06  <andythenorth> could limit amount of rail allowed to be built
15:18:20  <Alberth> could be interesting if there is a large gap in between where you cannot put much tracks
15:18:31  <andythenorth> there are quite a few transcontinental scenarios in railroad tycoon, they're fun
15:18:52  <andythenorth> I am most interested in scenarios that take 1-3 hours to play
15:19:33  * andythenorth ponders some more
15:21:45  <Alberth> afk for dinner
15:22:03  * andythenorth should learn what GS can do, instead of guessing :P
15:22:34  <Alberth>
15:22:47  <andythenorth> thanks
15:23:10  * andythenorth thinks 'less' might be the way to go
15:23:17  <andythenorth> the vehicle sets and industry sets have become huge
15:23:24  <andythenorth> but bigger != more fun
15:23:51  <andythenorth> none of the big newgrf games I've played have been as much fun as the first games I played with vanilla openttd
15:24:10  <andythenorth> but...bigger = more scope for a GS that only uses parts of stuff
15:37:04  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24427 /trunk/config.lib: -Change: allow passing C(XX)- and LDFLAGS to the compilation of helper binaries such as depend, strgen and settingsgen
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16:38:17  * andythenorth tries to find docs for nml BITMASK()
16:38:27  <andythenorth> maybe I read the source
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16:39:34  <Alberth>
16:39:44  <Alberth> but it's not that clear :)
16:40:23  <andythenorth> trying to figure out bitmask(CC_LIQUID)
16:40:25  <Alberth> bitmask(0, 4, 5) == 0011 0001
16:40:35  <andythenorth> ok
16:40:43  <andythenorth> so bitmask(CC_LIQUID) sets the liquid bit
16:40:46  <Alberth> ie 1 << CC_LIQUID  this
16:40:47  <andythenorth> fine
16:40:49  <Alberth> *thus
16:41:04  <andythenorth> in some limited cases, nfo is much easier :P
16:41:08  <andythenorth> no abstraction to deal with
16:41:36  <andythenorth> putting convenience around the bitmask makes it harder to remember / deduce what the bitmask is doing
16:41:38  <Alberth> but you have to encode to 0x31 :)
16:42:05  <Alberth> iirc nml also has <<, so use that instead
16:42:05  <andythenorth> so if I wanted to check a cargo had classe liquid, and only liquid?
16:42:24  <andythenorth> all other bits must be clear
16:43:02  <Alberth> value == bitmask(CC_LIQUID)
16:43:23  <Alberth> assuming 'value' is only cargo classes
16:43:57  <andythenorth> actually nvm
16:43:57  <andythenorth> theoretical question atm
16:44:20  <Alberth> ie you want exactly the value with that one bit
16:46:03  <andythenorth> hmm
16:46:13  <andythenorth> that explains why some cargos are refitting to tanker
16:48:27  <andythenorth> so in nfo I would 'just' mask the other bits out and check for liquid bit
16:48:27  <andythenorth> I need to do the same in nml
16:48:27  <andythenorth> the issue is vehicles that should be tanker if liquid class is present
16:48:27  <andythenorth> not iff liquid is the only class
16:50:27  <andythenorth> typo above * some cargos _aren't_ refitting to tanker :P
16:50:30  <Alberth> then you want    (vaue and bitmask(CC_LIQUID)) != 0    , ie throw away all bits not in the bitmask, and then you should still have some bits left
16:51:06  <andythenorth> perhaps I need multiple switches in that case
16:51:10  <Alberth> and since you started with 1 bit, 'some bits left' is also 1 bit :)
16:51:36  <michi_cc> And 'value & bitmask(a,b) == bitmask(a,b)' just in case you want to test if two bits are set at the same time.
16:53:57  <Alberth> the 'and' operation forces all other bits to 0 (ie all bits that you mask away), so you can predict what to compare against
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17:21:44  <andythenorth> so masking in nfo is easy
17:21:50  <andythenorth> but I am baffled by how to do this in nml
17:22:05  <andythenorth> presumably in the switch somewhere
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17:30:03  <michi_cc> andythenorth: By literally writing a &
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17:30:34  <andythenorth> cargo_classes_in_consist & some_value ?
17:30:50  <michi_cc> Yes. And that some value is your bitmask.
17:31:29  * andythenorth tests
17:32:29  <andythenorth> hmm
17:32:55  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24428 /trunk/src/lang/ (brazilian_portuguese.txt korean.txt):
17:32:55  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:32:55  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: korean - 26 changes by telk5093
17:32:55  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 6 changes by Tucalipe
17:33:45  * andythenorth seeks the & operator in nml
17:34:08  <planetmaker> look for "&"
17:34:42  <planetmaker> value = variable & 0x00F0
17:35:04  <andythenorth> how do I create an expression?
17:35:11  <andythenorth> docs tell me only the operators
17:35:21  <andythenorth> I have to wrap it in parentheses?
17:35:51  <Alberth> the normal operator expression priorities apply
17:36:02  <Alberth> ie 1 + 2 * 3 == 1 + (2 * 3)
17:36:14  <andythenorth> using && gets me an nml error
17:36:24  <andythenorth> it expands it to an html entity
17:36:32  <planetmaker> && applies to boolean only
17:36:51  <planetmaker> that's your pre-processor which fails there then
17:37:01  <andythenorth> o/c
17:37:15  <Alberth> hi planetmaker :)
17:37:37  <planetmaker> salut Alberth
17:38:49  <Alberth> as far as I can see, there seem to be mostly terrain and track sprites left, and stations
17:40:51  * andythenorth wonders wtf the templater is escaping non-templated things
17:45:33  <andythenorth> hmm
17:45:37  <andythenorth> this is a showstopper :P
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18:03:54  <andythenorth> ho ho
18:04:01  <andythenorth> ugly, but...meh :P
18:04:39  <andythenorth> grf_nml.write('&&'.join(master_template(vehicles=vehicles, repo_vars=repo_vars).split('$AND')))
18:06:58  <andythenorth> so what range is needed to check for 'true' with  'cargo_classes_in_consist && bitmask(CC_LIQUID)'
18:06:59  <andythenorth> ?
18:08:22  <andythenorth> I have tried 0, 1 and 255 as values
18:08:40  <Rubidium> doesn't that yield true whenever cargo_classes_in_consist is not 0?
18:09:12  <Rubidium> && != &
18:09:48  <andythenorth> yes, it does yield true
18:10:08  * andythenorth adjusts
18:13:36  <andythenorth> ok that works :)
18:13:36  <andythenorth> thanks
18:13:55  <TrueBrain> I hate weekends; they are so boring
18:15:48  <andythenorth> por quoi?
18:15:56  <TrueBrain> I am sorry, I speak no german
18:16:22  <Alberth> andy does not speak french, so that's a happy co-incidence :)
18:16:34  <andythenorth> bueno
18:17:33  <Eddi|zuHause> we should all speak esperanto like we're supposed to
18:18:02  <andythenorth> someone here probably does
18:18:31  <Eddi|zuHause> we used to have an esperanto translator
18:18:33  <andythenorth> is it madness that I have to use $AMPERSAND in my nml templates to get an & char?
18:18:46  <andythenorth> should I rip out the entire templating engine and start again?
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18:19:05  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you're probably just missing an escape character
18:20:05  <andythenorth> I tried all the ones listed
18:20:12  <andythenorth> I thought the same though
18:22:16  <andythenorth> this is ugly:
18:22:20  <andythenorth> I can't use string colours
18:22:21  <andythenorth> ideas?
18:22:52  <Eddi|zuHause> why not?
18:23:20  <andythenorth> vehicle info window
18:24:18  <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't look bad
18:24:43  <FLHerne> That second one looks much better :-)
18:25:13  <andythenorth> I could use cyan
18:25:21  <andythenorth> which would hide the vehicle info window problem
18:25:33  <andythenorth> can i have a guarantee that vehicle info window text colour won't change?
18:25:40  *** Chris_Booth [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:25:45  <FLHerne> Why is that a problem?
18:26:24  <Alberth> andythenorth: a tree-like list?
18:26:37  <FLHerne> Makes the 'in cabins' bit easier to ignore - which is fine since it's not relevant anyway :P
18:27:22  <andythenorth> it's wrong and ugly
18:27:27  <planetmaker> why do you need that guarantee?