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Log for #openttd on 11th August 2012:
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05:43:47  <MMavipc> Is BaNaNaS down for anyone else?
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05:52:37  <V453000> yes
06:00:11  <andythenorth> no
06:00:17  <andythenorth> ENoContext :P
06:01:58  <V453000> [07:07:53] Is BaNaNaS down for anyone else?
06:02:00  <V453000> context :P
06:02:33  <andythenorth> website's up for me, no css though
06:03:06  <V453000> I get http://bananas.openttd.org/en/notAvailableYet when trying to download things
06:03:07  * andythenorth wonder's if anyone understands the industry generation code in industry_cmd.cpp
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06:03:38  <andythenorth> V453000: probably content-ish stuff is coming from mirrors that are down / being synced / being upgraded
06:03:43  <V453000> ok only the newest upload breaks which I did yesterday evening when it was already down :)
06:04:04  * andythenorth is guessing btw
06:04:05  <V453000> the older things look worky
06:04:27  <andythenorth> could tell TB, but he probably knows already :P
06:04:33  <V453000> I guess :p
06:04:50  <andythenorth> hmm
06:04:59  <andythenorth> "wonder's" is wrong
06:05:03  <andythenorth> too early for ' rules :P
06:05:31  <V453000> I also dont write ' in don't
06:06:01  <andythenorth> abolish the ' character, it's dumb :P
06:06:18  <V453000> we can agree on that :>
06:06:51  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: ¿ I'm guessing you know some stuff is down, e.g. Bad Gateway for http://media.openttd.org
06:08:08  <MMavipc> media.openttd.org is giving a 502
06:08:33  <V453000> dont complain better than if it was giving 666
06:09:08  <MMavipc> that's not even possible
06:09:14  <andythenorth> apparently 666 is over-rated as a number
06:09:23  <MMavipc> http error codes are 1xx-5xx
06:10:02  <andythenorth> 666 may have been a hebrew encoding of "Nero" rather than an actual number signifying the actual end of the world :P
06:10:40  <V453000> I have no clue of the origin tbh :D
06:10:56  <andythenorth> seems that the Israelites may have had a system similar to ASCII character encoding, for information they couldn't write down in plain sight
06:13:24  <V453000> mhm :)
06:16:29  <V453000> btw my purchase menu looks like a parrot now :D https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20419525/purchasemenu_enhancement.png thoughts?
06:24:01  <V453000> andythenorth: ? :) it is too colourful isnt it
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06:33:54  <andythenorth> V453000: it's colourful ;)
06:34:07  <andythenorth> what are the column of numbers ?
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06:38:57  <V453000> colour = class, number = chronological number of the train in that class
06:39:16  <V453000> so in the beginning you have only 1 1 1, and then it upgrades to 9 .. :)
06:48:51  <andythenorth> how do you make that column appear?
06:49:30  <V453000> it is in the purchase menu sprites
06:51:00  <V453000> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20419525/PurchaseMenu.png
06:51:02  <V453000> like that
06:51:52  <V453000> I also had to put the text in there, as otherwise it would cause misalignment of the main black text, as 1 is shorter than 2 for example :)
06:52:13  <andythenorth> ho ho
06:52:19  <andythenorth> cargo sprites too :)
06:52:48  <V453000> the wagon icons?
06:52:56  <V453000> those are a bit odd so far :)
06:53:28  <V453000> idk if I shouldnt rename passengers to Golems looking at their icon :P
06:57:19  <andythenorth> biab
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07:29:17  * andythenorth makes a list of what's stupid about FIRS
07:29:30  <andythenorth> - supplies
07:29:38  <andythenorth> - industry clustering is broken
07:29:45  <andythenorth> - open dates are broken
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07:30:09  <andythenorth> - FIRS is boring
07:30:30  <Wolf01> morning o/
07:31:06  <Eddi|zuHause> basically i disagree about all 4 points
07:31:30  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I'm proposing removing these
07:31:34  <andythenorth> rather fixing the broken
07:31:52  <andythenorth> industry clustering used to be scaled by map size
07:32:02  <andythenorth> that was dropped during nml conversion
07:32:10  <Eddi|zuHause> why?
07:32:22  <andythenorth> accident
07:33:07  <andythenorth> anecdotally, porting to a new language is a common way for software to lose nice features that handled details
07:33:31  <andythenorth> Joel has a whole post on it somewhere, tiresome as he now is :P
07:33:49  <andythenorth> open dates is fixable I think
07:33:50  <MMavipc> banannas back up yet?
07:34:43  <andythenorth> supplies - patch for that has been around a while, but I haven't played a game to test it
07:34:44  <Eddi|zuHause> MMavipc: ask TrueBrain
07:34:56  <andythenorth> MMavipc: just ask the fricking internet ;)
07:35:08  <andythenorth> the internet knows: http://bananas.openttd.org/en/
07:35:39  <andythenorth> TB, if he is aware at all and not sleeping, probably doesn't want to be asked about it right now :P
07:36:17  <andythenorth> "FIRS is boring" could probably be solved by economies, plus fixing the broken bits
07:36:46  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: where's your buy menu patch?  I can test (with toddler interruptions) :P
07:36:52  <andythenorth> maybe I could teach him to patch and test
07:37:01  <andythenorth> he already knows that shell is where openttd comes from
07:37:27  <andythenorth> I'm going to teach my kids shell as soon as they can type
07:37:47  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/resize_purchase_list2.diff
07:38:46  <andythenorth> my irc client always adds www. to these urls :P
07:38:49  <andythenorth> which is wrong :)
07:38:50  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i had a funny/illustrated book that taught me about DOS when i was a kid :)
07:39:18  <andythenorth> I learnt BBC basic when I was about 7
07:39:32  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it always starts with www. your client is broken...
07:39:32  <andythenorth> and before that I learnt run "foo" or "ch *. foo" etc
07:40:35  <andythenorth> patch looks right
07:40:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i still have the first part of the book, but not the second part that talked about batch programming
07:41:02  <andythenorth> I'd better try it with different bounding boxes in FISH
07:41:44  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: like i said, in the purchase chain, check for extra_callback_info1
07:42:07  <andythenorth> if I stop using cropped b. boxes should just work
07:42:09  <andythenorth> I'll test
07:42:46  <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't care for "bounding boxes". the raw sprite sizes are what matters
07:43:07  <andythenorth> that's a box yes / no?
07:43:13  <andythenorth> x, y, width, height
07:43:16  <andythenorth> I'll adjust that
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07:43:30  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but "bounding box" is a special 3D-concept in the game
07:43:37  <andythenorth> ach ok
07:43:47  <Eddi|zuHause> so you should not use that in this context
07:43:50  <andythenorth> fine
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08:02:28  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: think the patch works
08:02:51  <andythenorth> and yes, think I do need to check the vars during purchase chain
08:02:56  <andythenorth> width is fine, height is not :P
08:03:29  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, not sure if i should implement height in the purchase menu
08:04:00  <andythenorth> hmm
08:04:07  <andythenorth> try it? :P
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08:11:00  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: try www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/resize_purchase_list3.diff (untested)
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08:26:02  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: diff is missing?
08:26:09  <andythenorth> http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/resize_purchase_list3.diff
08:26:20  <Eddi|zuHause> sorry, my fault
08:26:43  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: try again
08:26:53  <andythenorth> works
08:29:02  <andythenorth> hmm
08:29:17  <andythenorth> if I fix start y, that should all be fine
08:29:48  <andythenorth> hmm
08:29:56  <andythenorth> existing sets have some issues
08:30:10  <andythenorth> e.g. HEQS would need all purchase menu y start values resetting too
08:30:17  <andythenorth> that's not tragic
08:30:28  <andythenorth> prepared to break existing sets for this?
08:31:26  <Eddi|zuHause> rather not
08:31:37  <andythenorth> nars 2 looks ok
08:31:42  <andythenorth> AV8 mostly looks ok
08:31:57  <andythenorth> canrail breaks a bit
08:32:01  <andythenorth> HEQS breaks a bit
08:32:58  <andythenorth> egrvts is fine
08:33:03  <Eddi|zuHause> mybe needs applying of the depot offset
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08:34:27  <andythenorth> also this would make all purchase lists left-aligned
08:34:38  <andythenorth> classically, game has been center-aligned for purchase menu
08:34:41  <andythenorth> do we care?
08:36:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't find a sane way to keep that
08:36:51  <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably one of the most controversial parts of the patch
08:40:45  <andythenorth> x = (max_width / 2) - (sprite_width / 2) ?
08:41:04  <andythenorth> I didn't read the patch, so I don't know if that's plausible
08:42:59  <andythenorth> same problem as 'center my variable sized dialog on a variable sized screen' for GUI design
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08:49:52  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: misc flag for 'use improved buy menu' ? :P
08:51:51  <andythenorth> if it was me, I'd just break newgrfs
08:51:58  <andythenorth> but there's a reason why I don't have commit rights :P
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09:03:54  <V453000> I guess there are no clues how long will the bananas hiccup last eh :z
09:04:15  <andythenorth> that's how it goes :)
09:06:51  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I like the buy menu patch, think it's viable
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09:07:11  <andythenorth> the other options are "add setx support to nml" <- ruled out by others
09:07:22  <andythenorth> or "put FISH back into nfo"
09:07:33  <andythenorth> I could probably use my python templating to generate nfo
09:07:44  <Eddi|zuHause> setx is a known broken feature
09:08:02  <andythenorth> so on the basis that the other options suck....
09:08:04  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Did I just drop into one of your 'all my grfs are buggy' rants? :P
09:08:09  <andythenorth> no
09:08:19  <andythenorth> ...the buy menu patch is the best route
09:09:03  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Good :-)
09:09:12  * FLHerne goes to look at the log
09:10:53  <andythenorth> ho
09:11:00  <andythenorth> 10 years of newgrf?
09:11:07  * andythenorth should stop complaining about it
09:11:13  <andythenorth> :o
09:12:19  <FLHerne> That long!? :o
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09:13:49  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you want to try centering, reinstate the two commented parts of src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp:885
09:14:11  <Eddi|zuHause> basically it "breaks" CETS
09:16:35  * FLHerne wonders where andythenorth went :P
09:17:36  <Eddi|zuHause> toddler gnaws on his network cable :p
09:19:24  <FLHerne> My rat does that sometimes :P
09:21:24  <Eddi|zuHause> my guinea pigs used to gnaw on the TV cables all the time
09:22:22  <FLHerne> Mine might if they were allowed in the living room :-)
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09:22:53  <Alberth> moin
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10:01:25  <Terkhen> good morning
10:04:44  <__ln__> gm
10:05:21  <Eddi|zuHause> interesting to see the newgrf timeline
10:05:22  <Wolf01> hello Alberth, Terkhen
10:05:37  <Alberth> hi :)
10:05:38  <__ln__> Terkhen: is there a requirement for people to carry some kind of an ID with them?
10:05:38  <Wolf01> , frosch123
10:05:47  <Wolf01> , __ln__
10:05:58  <Terkhen> what?
10:06:30  <frosch123> hi wolf01 :)
10:06:38  *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
10:06:48  <__ln__> Terkhen: in the kingdom of spain
10:07:36  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: i remember a legal dispute over here on whether the german law means "you need to have an ID [at home]" or "you need to carry an ID [with you]"
10:07:48  <Terkhen> I have no idea about how it works for foreigners
10:07:57  <__ln__> Terkhen: what about non-foreigners?
10:08:32  <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: what a nice ambiguity
10:08:56  <andythenorth> so...I have some time to code
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10:08:59  <andythenorth> maybe an hour or so
10:09:24  <andythenorth> recode FISH to be compatible with Eddi's buy menu patch?
10:09:29  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i reinstated the centering in http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/resize_purchase_list3.diff
10:09:30  <andythenorth> try and extend cb22 to run monthly?
10:09:42  <andythenorth> k
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10:09:46  <andythenorth> I'll test the patch first
10:10:01  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but it "breaks" CETS (as in doesn't help fixing the overlap, due to larger offset)
10:10:11  <andythenorth> hmm
10:10:15  <andythenorth> fiddly situation
10:10:35  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and FISH 0.9.2 looks very wide
10:10:35  <andythenorth> you could change CETS?
10:10:53  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i might do that, yes
10:10:56  <andythenorth> FISH 0.9.2 uses setx.  setx is not supported.  Problem goes away
10:11:09  <andythenorth> i.e. "don't use things that aren't supported"
10:11:11  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but then FISH 0.9.2 will overlap
10:11:18  <andythenorth> [shrug]
10:11:24  <andythenorth> it uses unsupported feature
10:11:33  <andythenorth> unsupported has to include 'may break'
10:11:41  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the left-aligning will "fix" the overlap
10:12:07  <Eddi|zuHause> this basically is a problem of all "old" grfs with oversized sprites, i assume
10:12:11  <andythenorth> yes
10:12:21  <andythenorth> if they use setx, they fail the spec
10:12:24  <andythenorth> so they break
10:12:33  <andythenorth> should have stuck to the spec
10:12:40  <Eddi|zuHause> setx was part of the spec when they were written
10:12:49  <andythenorth> stuff changes?
10:12:57  <Eddi|zuHause> and the specs are supposed to be "eternal"
10:13:07  <andythenorth> that argument doesn't hold
10:13:15  <Eddi|zuHause> (i.e. add new stuff, but never remove old stuff)
10:13:24  <andythenorth> otherwise I'd be using setx in FISH, and you wouldn't be having to figure this patch out
10:13:36  <andythenorth> spec clearly isn't eternal
10:13:40  <andythenorth> empirically
10:13:59  <V453000> fruit store online ^^
10:14:30  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: no centering for me in v3 :)
10:14:43  <andythenorth> got some extra debug output though :)
10:14:49  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: wait
10:14:54  <Eddi|zuHause> wrong url
10:15:08  <andythenorth> have more tea
10:15:08  <Eddi|zuHause> http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/resize_purchase_list3_centered.diff
10:15:15  <andythenorth> ta
10:15:42  <TrueBrain> right, this should bring openttd.org back on its feet
10:15:46  <TrueBrain> if you find any isuses, please let me know
10:16:13  <V453000> :)
10:19:38  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the centering patch appears to work
10:19:44  <andythenorth> canrail is back where it should be
10:19:53  <andythenorth> also AV8
10:20:02  <andythenorth> HEQS has a few oddities, but I suspect that's in the grf
10:20:10  <andythenorth> FISH I need to adjust offsets, but it will work
10:26:04  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: HEQS can be fixed by reinstating the old minimum width
10:28:21  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: did you test the sailing ship grf?
10:45:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i hereby declare this patch "done" and ready for code review: http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/resize_purchase_list3_final.diff
10:50:43  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: no I didn't test sailing ships yet
10:50:46  <andythenorth> 1 min
10:50:55  <Eddi|zuHause> 2cc set is also non-optimal
10:51:43  <andythenorth> sailing ships looks ok
10:51:53  <andythenorth> it has an insanely huge steamship that should clip insanely
10:51:55  <andythenorth> but meh
10:54:48  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: baseline is off by a couple pixels http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3175/buy_menu_patch.png
10:54:58  <andythenorth> maybe 1px, maybe 2
10:57:09  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's an instance of the centering problem
10:57:41  <V453000> try nuts 0.2.8 andy that has some really weird sprites for the purchase menu lately ... big ones with the numbers ... idk what could it do
10:59:02  <V453000> does it center both ways? vertical/horizontal
10:59:55  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: is it also centering vertically
10:59:56  <andythenorth> ?
11:00:05  <Eddi|zuHause> afaik, yes
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11:00:45  <V453000> the gmund mog is 1 px higher in the patch it looks like ... at least from your screenshot andy
11:00:57  <drac_boy> hi
11:01:08  <andythenorth> V453000: NUTS 0.2.8 is fine with the patch.  All your sprites are the same width
11:01:10  <andythenorth> works well
11:01:31  <V453000> oh right :) thanks
11:01:42  <V453000> so it loads the whole sprite not just the "visible" part
11:01:45  <Eddi|zuHause> now in FS#5271
11:01:47  <drac_boy> mog? hmm is that ukrs2 or was it that world train set?
11:01:53  <V453000> heqs
11:01:57  <drac_boy> I know I've seen it before just forgot where
11:02:00  <drac_boy> oh duh..right...trucks
11:02:08  <V453000> trucks on rails
11:02:18  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so definitely 1px too high on the baseline
11:02:37  <andythenorth> hmm
11:02:51  <andythenorth> V453000: I tested NUTS without the patch :P
11:02:54  <andythenorth> mistake
11:02:55  <drac_boy> V453000 I remember having fun with heqs on some servers before except for one stupid bug...the railmotors could not even actually carry anything at all
11:02:58  <V453000> xD
11:03:10  <V453000> drac_boy: dont tell me tell andythenorth  :P
11:03:12  <drac_boy> but then I think the server was one version behind at the time perhaps
11:03:32  <drac_boy> something about eg it used 1.4 but the forum said 1.5
11:03:50  <andythenorth> V453000: not fine :)
11:04:12  <V453000> how much?
11:04:15  <drac_boy> V453000 of course my favorite part of the whole HEQ was the trams alone almost literally :p
11:04:18  <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3177/NUTS_buy_menu.png
11:04:32  <andythenorth> V453000: you're using nml?
11:04:42  <V453000> hmm
11:04:43  <V453000> yeah sure
11:04:47  <drac_boy> being able to have an economical low-speed low-cost freight line for eg a 76 tonnes forest to a sawmill that is not too far away :)
11:04:58  <lugo> hi, just a quick one: is it possible to get MBs NewStations to use/show other than default railtracks?
11:04:59  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: must the length text be red?
11:05:01  <drac_boy> I don't think there is even any other vehicle set that has freight trams or am I wrong?
11:05:07  <andythenorth> V453000: how are you offsetting the buy menu text?  nml doesn't support that
11:05:09  <andythenorth> spaces?
11:05:11  <V453000> Eddi|zuHause: no :D
11:05:18  <V453000> andythenorth: yeah spaces :D
11:05:26  <andythenorth> good luck when the font changes :P
11:05:36  <andythenorth> or with right to left languages
11:05:47  <andythenorth> tried it with opengfx font?
11:05:50  <V453000> space is always space
11:05:55  <andythenorth> nope
11:05:59  <V453000> I mean
11:06:01  <andythenorth> font char width is variable
11:06:05  <andythenorth> I tried this for BANDIT
11:06:12  <V453000> every text has .. 8 spaces before it
11:06:14  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: and you forgot to colour some "(Electric)"
11:06:14  <andythenorth> err...for FISH :P
11:06:22  <V453000> sure it can change with font
11:06:31  <andythenorth> k as long as you know ;)
11:06:33  <lugo> i am using pikkas finescale tracks atm, and all stationsets seem to recognize them .. despite MBs...
11:06:40  <V453000> but each string has the same amount of spaces in front for me
11:06:52  <V453000> Eddi|zuHause: thanks
11:06:59  <drac_boy> V453000 can I tell you what I think of these locomotives in that list screenshot? :)
11:07:00  <Eddi|zuHause> lugo: known issue. MB has a "fixed" version but doesn't release it for some reason
11:07:13  <lugo> ah thanks!
11:07:13  <V453000> drac_boy: of course :)
11:07:37  <lugo> what a pity..
11:08:03  <Eddi|zuHause> lugo: also you meant "except", not "despite"
11:09:31  <lugo> right
11:09:40  <drac_boy> second one .. looks a bit like a crocodile type but with bit shorter noses .. 'unlucky 13' kinda seem like as if its sitting on a high chassis like some older mountain electric boxcabs .. 'painkiller' kinda looks funny I think its sorta a cross between BR61 and BR05
11:09:42  <drac_boy> :p
11:09:51  <andythenorth> V453000: NUTS would work with the patch I think, all you'd do to fix it is remove the spaces
11:10:03  <V453000> yeah thats just fine, thanks andythenorth  :)
11:10:21  <drac_boy> and btw just wondering..whats with the tiles-long number column?
11:10:25  <V453000> yes that is exactly what they do drac_boy  :)
11:10:57  <V453000> if you mean the colourful numbers, that is their id in their class (colour)
11:11:52  <drac_boy> hmm so how does repeated ids work in that list?
11:11:55  <V453000> drac_boy: in fact most of the engines in this screenshot are going to be redrawn :)
11:12:12  <V453000> it is an id in the class, first train in medium class, first train in fast class
11:12:24  <V453000> of course it isnt the id of the vehicle in the newgrf
11:12:27  <Eddi|zuHause> how does "painkiller" (something tiny) look anything like BR05/BR61 (large high speed express engines)?
11:12:40  <V453000> :d
11:12:51  <V453000> I have no clue how those trains look so .. :)
11:12:55  <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause streamlined front ... and the lack of tender makes me think of BR61
11:13:52  <drac_boy> 'driving darkness' ... well it kinda looks like a typical diesel with offset cab .. except that its hard to make out any cab doors in the buy list on the contrast  (then again I guess the name fits)
11:14:33  <V453000> the point is, those trains arent supposed to resemble any real trains by any means :)
11:15:23  <V453000> I dont really have a clue how BR123 or BR321 looks
11:15:25  <drac_boy> V453000 I know but still have a quick look at this and you'll see why I thought of it http://www.m-users.net/pics/misc/lbe1.jpg
11:16:39  <drac_boy> V453000 i still can't get over your silly naming system tho .. both before and now :p
11:16:47  <V453000> :)
11:17:34  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: that's a BR61: http://www.rrsg.de/Henschel_Wegmann_Zug.jpg
11:17:35  <V453000> not making up random names for almost 100 trains :)
11:17:47  <drac_boy> V453000 btw if you're going to have 'unlucky 13' .. where is 'lucky 7' to take its place? :P
11:17:47  <V453000> right :)
11:17:49  <drac_boy> HEH
11:18:18  <V453000> lucky 7 is 6 feet under
11:19:06  <V453000> only evil things here, no luck
11:21:30  <drac_boy> heh heh ok if you say so ... btw don't know if you were probably still looking for more electric loco names but try these two if you want: Mass Jolt (100+A, no need to do the math), Death Bolts (bolts = thunderbolts)
11:21:55  <V453000> no not really :)
11:22:02  <drac_boy> ok
11:22:08  <V453000> I have all trains done, just upgrading sprites and adding visual features now
11:22:11  <V453000> or editing train stats
11:22:11  <drac_boy> Death Bolt kinda sounds funny tho
11:22:47  <V453000> well all of my train names have very close resemblance to names of songs or bands :p
11:23:07  <V453000> easiest place where to take names
11:25:45  <V453000> hm, what colour to pick instead of the red but make people read that shit :-D
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11:27:30  <frosch123> rainbow
11:28:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd just make it "{BLACK}Length: {GOLD}1 Tile{GOLD}" like any other property
11:28:39  <Eddi|zuHause> err... last GOLD should be BLACK
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11:29:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm still pondering on a good way to include that in CETS
11:29:40  <V453000> frosch123: :D
11:29:46  <Eddi|zuHause> (calculating the "0.7 Tile(s)" automatically)
11:29:56  <V453000> 0.7? :d
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11:30:21  <Eddi|zuHause> well CETS vehicles range from 3/16 to 14/16 (and longer for articulated)
11:31:02  <Eddi|zuHause> so ICE1 (14 middle wagons) would be "12.7 Tiles"
11:31:22  <V453000> hm
11:31:31  <V453000> there is a reason I use only 8/8 ^^
11:32:55  <drac_boy> CETS...can't remember if I've seen that before...
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11:33:48  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: well, the depot shows that properly
11:34:33  <Eddi|zuHause> well almost properly, because there's a rounding error (16 values stuffed in 1 decimal)
11:35:08  <andythenorth> I _think_ openttd just wiped out my mac with a kernel exception
11:35:13  <andythenorth> however I can't be sure from the logs
11:35:18  <andythenorth> might just be coincidence
11:35:47  <Eddi|zuHause> "kernel exceptions" generally stem from ill-programmed drivers
11:35:54  <Eddi|zuHause> not user programs
11:36:18  <Eddi|zuHause> (those might be the cause, but never the reason)
11:36:43  <__ln__> they can't stem from user programs unless there is a security vulnerability
11:36:56  <andythenorth> KERN_INVALID_ADDRESS at 0x000000000001051c, 0  Dispatch queue: com.apple.main-thread
11:37:02  <andythenorth> but it didn't kernel panic
11:37:11  <andythenorth> I lost part of the GUI instead, and some keyboard
11:37:24  <andythenorth> anyway, what's done is done :P
11:37:31  <andythenorth> more likely my new SSD is failing
11:37:47  <andythenorth> there is allegedly a ~50% failure rate on SSDs within the first few months of life
11:37:57  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a very educated guess :p
11:38:00  <andythenorth> according to anecdotal, unscientific claims I read by a repairers
11:38:59  <andythenorth> I suspect some kind of confirmation bias :P
11:39:03  <__ln__> and a ~100% failure rate within the first 18 months
11:48:58  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: set the y_offset to 0 for trains (instead of -1)
11:49:06  <andythenorth> dunno what edge cases that has :P
11:49:25  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that won't work properly
11:49:52  <andythenorth> fails for default vehicles
11:50:54  * andythenorth reverts
11:58:50  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: default vehicles look fine with patch
11:59:37  * andythenorth wonders what to do next
12:00:15  <andythenorth> kind of grumpy about FIRS game balance
12:01:05  <andythenorth> "No Dairies before 1892" also means "no destination for milk before 1892"
12:01:06  <V453000> im still thinking about some way how to improve that with something rather simple
12:01:19  <andythenorth> milk seems solvable
12:01:39  <V453000> oh those things you mean :)
12:02:01  <andythenorth> I want to remove all the remaining *small* brokens
12:03:05  <V453000> an option would be to make farms somehow more atractive
12:03:28  <V453000> not just farms but also the stone/clay etc which doesnt produce its own supplies
12:03:52  <V453000> there isnt an equivalent of biorefinery in the earlier game is there?
12:05:20  <andythenorth> no
12:05:29  <andythenorth> but there are destinations for those cargos
12:07:35  <V453000> destination is nice but you need farm supplies :)
12:08:13  <V453000> you dont care about biorefinery in 2010 if all your farms are already dead by then since 1920
12:08:27  <andythenorth> your farms die? :o
12:08:42  <V453000> well not mine I use the "no-dying" settings but still
12:10:39  <V453000> if each of your mineral or oil industries makes 700-2000 units of cargo per month by that time you arent really interested in farms
12:11:27  <V453000> but the settings with industries reducing production if not supplied just makes that even a lot bigger issue, as you definitely dont want to start with farms which cant make supplies for themselves
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12:15:16  <andythenorth> V453000: I think a different set is needed, focussed on production amounts
12:23:29  * andythenorth is looking for FIRS chains broken by intro dates
12:24:57  <Eddi|zuHause> pre-industrial (-1800), industrial (1750-2000), post-modern (1950-)
12:26:27  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: worth thinking about certainly
12:26:29  <Eddi|zuHause> dates might need tweaking, or a fourth phase
12:26:52  <andythenorth> currently I'm setting date to 0 where the chain is broken (supplier is available, but no destination)
12:27:21  <Eddi|zuHause> what date?
12:27:43  <andythenorth> intro date; to be strict, I'm simply removing date checks from cb22
12:28:54  <Eddi|zuHause> need more context
12:29:13  <andythenorth> some chains have a supplier available from game start 0 (e.g. milk, livestock)
12:29:21  <andythenorth> but no accepting industry until [some date]
12:29:28  <andythenorth> which is silly
12:30:00  <Eddi|zuHause> yes it is
12:30:08  <andythenorth> I'll fix that first
12:30:13  <Eddi|zuHause> but that is entirely your own fault
12:30:16  <andythenorth> it annoyed me when I tried to play a game :P
12:30:24  <andythenorth> yes my fault :P
12:31:17  <andythenorth> additionally I'm moving multiple industries to < 1870 intro date
12:31:27  <Eddi|zuHause> early shop: builds near towns, accepts food, milk, ...
12:31:47  <Eddi|zuHause> closes around 1900
12:31:51  <andythenorth> ah
12:31:54  <andythenorth> the 'closing' idea
12:31:58  <andythenorth> which doesn't exist :P
12:32:13  <Eddi|zuHause> you have to forcefully close old industries
12:32:21  <andythenorth> I can't, it annoys co-op players
12:32:23  <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't make sense to have these phases otherwise
12:32:33  <andythenorth> it was ruled out very early in the set design
12:32:33  <Eddi|zuHause> then they should start in 2000
12:32:42  <Eddi|zuHause> when only the post-modern industries are around
12:32:56  <andythenorth> point
12:33:06  <Eddi|zuHause> it's the same as vehicle introduction
12:33:16  <andythenorth> seen my comments on cb22?
12:33:23  <andythenorth> I was hoping Alberth would be here :)
12:33:23  <Eddi|zuHause> no
12:33:28  <andythenorth> oh he is apparently :)
12:33:47  <andythenorth> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=62134
12:33:51  <Alberth> he is? :)
12:33:54  <andythenorth> ^^ may make no sense, I was tired and cross
12:34:07  <Eddi|zuHause> ah that
12:34:13  <Eddi|zuHause> no, that made no sense
12:34:15  <andythenorth> Alberth: do you understand how game tries to provide industries during gameplay?
12:34:22  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no "monthly" industry creation
12:34:37  <Eddi|zuHause> it's scaled by map size (larger maps create industries more often)
12:34:40  <andythenorth> I know.  There should be.  It's stupid that there isn't :P
12:35:07  <andythenorth> I tried to start patching it last night, but found that the code is rather elaborate
12:35:22  <andythenorth> it tries to provide nice behaviour
12:35:35  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, how is that related to "no milk-accepting industry before X"?
12:35:39  <andythenorth> it's not
12:35:43  <andythenorth> they're decoupled issues
12:36:01  <andythenorth> I'm fixing the 'no milk' issue ;)
12:36:47  <andythenorth> the introduction issue might be solved by the extensions to cb 22 anyway
12:36:50  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, closing for not servicing: bad. closing randomly: bad. closing outdated chains: good.
12:36:57  <Alberth> monthly is very fast I think, currently it grows by 1 industry every 8-10 months or so, I think; I also don't understand what you aim to solve
12:37:16  <andythenorth> try playing a FIRS game before say 1900
12:37:29  <andythenorth> Aluminimum Plant and Bauxite Mine are available from 1923
12:37:37  <Alberth> yeah, you mentioned that yesterday iirc
12:37:46  <andythenorth> Fertiliser Plant similar etc
12:37:54  <andythenorth> they just don't show up in game very often
12:38:18  <andythenorth> because we already have the required number of industries
12:38:26  <andythenorth> or possibly because the map has no room I guess
12:38:50  <andythenorth> I'm wondering if the issue is that the map has no room
12:39:06  <andythenorth> but I'm so bored of testing randomised crap
12:39:26  <andythenorth> you get a result in one game, how many more do you have to run to be sure that the result is valid?
12:39:30  <andythenorth> tens?  hundreds?
12:39:45  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth, andythenorth: i think a "solution" to that might be "reserving" unbuilt industry slots for industries that are not avaliable for some reason. then they have a larger creation chance when they become available (but you have fewer industries on the map before that)
12:40:05  <andythenorth> I can also use the recent additions to cb22 to raise the probability
12:40:45  <andythenorth> completely separate issue: when industries have intro dates, it's impossible to balance industry types reliably at game start (for different start dates)
12:41:14  <Alberth> afaik you basically get X industries at the start, and X grows VERY slowly in time
12:41:17  <Eddi|zuHause> so if you have a map with 40 industries and 80 "industry slots", equally distributed, but 5 industries are not available, then only 70 industries are on the map
12:41:33  <andythenorth> should sum the probabilities the same way too
12:41:40  <Alberth> so you basically only get new industries (and types of industries) by closing old ones
12:41:53  <andythenorth> hmm
12:41:59  <andythenorth> so if game is trying to build 55 industries
12:42:20  * andythenorth needs to be better at explaining
12:42:25  <Eddi|zuHause> so if an industry now becomes available, it immediately gets 2 open slots for industry creation, despite the map being already full of industries
12:42:28  <andythenorth> there is a solution here
12:42:37  <andythenorth> based on the action 0 probs
12:42:52  <andythenorth> and summing those, dividing by number of industries required
12:43:20  <andythenorth> then checking cb 22 and reducing number of industries required accordingly
12:43:35  <Alberth> I start to think the current system is too static
12:43:35  <andythenorth> I'm sure I've explained that inadequately
12:43:49  <Alberth> the idea by Eddi could be one step
12:43:57  <andythenorth> I should make a paste of all the associated issues
12:44:08  <andythenorth> we also have the problem of hilly or mountainous maps
12:44:14  <andythenorth> where industry simply can't find a valid location
12:44:20  <Alberth> but tbh, I don't exactly know what one would want from industries in the game
12:45:04  <andythenorth> ok assume you start in 1800, and 33% of your industries are unavailable, and you have industry setting normal
12:45:09  <andythenorth> @calc 0.33 * 55
12:45:09  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 18.15
12:45:23  <andythenorth> @calc 0.66 * 55
12:45:23  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 36.3
12:45:49  <andythenorth> so you get 36 industries built, according to the relative probabilities of the subset of available industries
12:45:58  <Eddi|zuHause> there needs to be a "static" industry availability callback (that does not depend on *where* the industry should be built) and a *dynamic* industry availability callback (that depends on the location)
12:46:24  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: just the year should be enough?
12:46:53  <Alberth> and you may want an 'ending' year too
12:46:59  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: well, all "global" NewGRF variables (should global storage ever be introduced)
12:47:56  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: weird idea #45255: certain industries could only appear if there is a company with rating >800
12:48:36  <Alberth> andythenorth: I think the current system is mostly designed for the static set of default industries
12:48:58  <Alberth> and thus it fails horribly with the dynamic systems you try in FIRS
12:49:18  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: the default set has an "ending" year for oil wells
12:49:42  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, but #45255 makes any form of planning impossible
12:49:54  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: that's a special case afaik
12:50:50  <andythenorth> food -> brb
12:51:15  <Alberth> I am pondering whether you can ditch all existing stuff, and move it all to some simple experimenting environment
12:51:28  <Alberth> so you can actually test what you want to have
12:52:09  <Eddi|zuHause> embed a game script into the industry newgrf :)
12:52:57  <Alberth> sure, but newgrf spec is very much in the way for any official way of doing that
12:53:30  <Alberth> and basically kills any option for experimenting
12:54:07  <Alberth> perhaps with a source code patch?
12:54:42  <Eddi|zuHause> the general idea of newgrfs is that the game provides a flexible algorithm that can be tuned by some parameters, which the newgrf can then set
12:55:22  <frosch123> maybe we can somehow accelerate closure of old industries
12:55:45  <frosch123> i.e. if there are a lot more industries of one type than there should be, make it more likely for them too close
12:55:59  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: currently FIRS has no closure at all. which takes some of the dynamics out of it
12:56:08  <Alberth> s/some/most/
12:56:27  <Alberth> frosch123: but the newgrf decides, not the program
12:56:31  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: ah, so firs breaks that :p
12:56:50  <Alberth> frosch123: otherwise I would have implemented your idea long ago
12:56:57  <Eddi|zuHause> basically it removes the ability of self-tuning beyond "add an additional industry every X years"
13:00:00  <Alberth> being able to shut down industries, and changing  creation probabilities over time may be sufficient to get changing industry types in time
13:00:35  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: your idea of reserving would work at the cost of less industries to play with at the start
13:01:27  <frosch123> so, should we relax the industry production change callbacks?
13:01:51  <frosch123> instead of letting them make a definite decisions, make them return likelyness of closure/changes
13:02:01  <frosch123> so ottd can close the one which complains the least
13:02:23  <frosch123> we already have the changing probabilities over time
13:04:05  <Alberth> imo, an industry cannot decide how much it likes to be closed, other than for local use
13:04:18  <Alberth> that however is easy to see by openttd as well
13:04:39  <frosch123> it can decide proximity to towns or, height or whatever
13:04:45  <frosch123> or lifetime
13:05:00  <frosch123> all those weird rules in pbi and ecs
13:05:00  <Alberth> hmm, fair points, ok
13:06:09  <frosch123> a industry might also consider servicing some cargos more important that others
13:06:28  * Alberth nods
13:07:57  <Alberth> should a user be able to postpone 'eminent closure' ?
13:08:10  <Alberth> eg by paying a sum of money?
13:08:16  * drac_boy thankfully is not going to have to put up with this for my project :p
13:08:19  <Eddi|zuHause> but that does still not help if the industry grf decides "no closure whatsoever"
13:08:40  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: don't play with that grf
13:09:01  <Alberth> or do play if you want static industries
13:09:31  <Eddi|zuHause> like i said above. "random" closure is bad
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13:11:21  * andythenorth reads beack
13:11:25  <andythenorth> back even :P
13:11:51  <andythenorth> - global newgrf storage has been ruled out multiple times
13:12:38  <andythenorth> hmm
13:13:08  <andythenorth> "new industry types don't get built" seems to unpick a lot of other issues about newgrf industry behaviour
13:13:14  <andythenorth> that wasn't quite my intention :)
13:14:04  <andythenorth> I don't see how we can make openttd handle closure etc and honour 'everything should be done via newgrf'
13:14:23  <Alberth> it's impossible imho
13:14:30  <andythenorth> we just end up with behaviour in the core game that annoys some subset of players
13:14:38  <andythenorth> we already have that, so why bother changing that code :)
13:14:53  <Alberth> make andy less unhappy?
13:15:00  <andythenorth> i.e. swap old annoyance for new annoyance :P
13:15:14  <andythenorth> solving closure is quite easy: turn it off in newgrf
13:15:16  <andythenorth> do without it
13:15:23  <Eddi|zuHause> there is probably no "perfect" solution
13:15:25  <frosch123> andythenorth: if opening and closure is mostyl controlled by ottd, we can add an economy speed setting
13:15:34  <Eddi|zuHause> but i think there is room for improvement
13:15:36  <andythenorth> solving opening might also benefit from the same approach: don't require opening
13:15:57  <frosch123> however, biggest problem remains: primary industries close when they keep on reducing production; not when they make a "close" decision
13:16:36  <frosch123> andythenorth: i thought opening is already perfect
13:16:44  <frosch123> just closure is the problem
13:17:00  <andythenorth> no
13:17:00  <frosch123> and newgrfs disabling closure might break opening in certain cases
13:17:13  <andythenorth> closure is broken imho, but we know that can't be fixed
13:17:20  <andythenorth> so I just turn off closure, problem solved
13:17:35  <frosch123> by that "solving" you break opening :p
13:17:40  <frosch123> and you do not really solve anything
13:17:40  <andythenorth> and I don't try and solve it any more for players who want it on
13:17:52  <frosch123> as smithy forges will just remain till year 3000
13:17:57  <andythenorth> but they have to anyway
13:18:27  <andythenorth> it's a FIRS requirement that it doesn't break delivery chains for co-op style games
13:18:28  <NGC3982> This is very odd.
13:18:56  <andythenorth> so if disabling closure causes problems opening new industry types....
13:19:01  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you can't have "never close" and "industry ages"... it's two conflicting ideas
13:19:10  <andythenorth> my point
13:19:18  <andythenorth> I should remove inro dates
13:19:20  <andythenorth> intro *
13:19:30  <Eddi|zuHause> no
13:19:36  <andythenorth> ?
13:19:39  <Eddi|zuHause> you should allow closing outdated industries
13:19:48  <andythenorth> but that's against the set goals
13:19:57  <andythenorth> I've alienated enough of the contributors already
13:20:05  <Eddi|zuHause> you should relax the ill-conceived set goals
13:20:08  <andythenorth> I don't think I can keep changing the goals
13:20:15  <NGC3982> I have a dedicated 1.2.1 server running. A standard generated map with the current NewGRF's: ECS/FIRS vehicle set, ECS cargoset, ECS town, basic II, chemicals, construction, machinery and wood vector. FISH 0.9.2, eGRVTS v1.0 and 2cc 2.0.0.
13:20:25  <frosch123> andythenorth: if you want static industries, yuo have to drop introduction dates
13:20:32  <NGC3982> For some reason, people trying to join can't get the GRF's from the online-content
13:20:34  <frosch123> replace them with upgradnig industries
13:20:44  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you already have a setting, make it three-state: "never close", "only close outdated", "close randomly"
13:20:45  <frosch123> just turn all smithy forges into steelmills at some date
13:20:51  <frosch123> and maybe make them accept more cargos
13:21:21  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and make "close outdated" the default
13:22:43  <andythenorth> k
13:22:48  <andythenorth> plausible
13:23:00  <andythenorth> so that's closing
13:23:05  <andythenorth> opening is still broken
13:23:11  <andythenorth> why shouldn't I just drop intro dates?
13:23:29  <andythenorth> even with closing, they're broken
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13:23:47  <Eddi|zuHause> you could drop intro dates, but then you have to implement economies :)
13:24:00  <andythenorth> I can't do that without a python conversion, or a collaborator
13:24:04  <andythenorth> I can do the python conversion
13:24:22  <andythenorth> I refuse to touch the cpp stuff
13:24:33  <andythenorth> it's hard to work with, and I get shouted at here for asking questions about it
13:24:46  <Alberth> NGC3982: work is being done on the servers currently, I think
13:24:54  <andythenorth> sick of being told "you're an idiot for using the wrong tools" when I didn't write the codebase
13:25:22  <andythenorth> anyway
13:25:24  <andythenorth> opening dates
13:25:33  <andythenorth> most of the industry types are new, they don't replace an old type
13:25:56  <andythenorth> but the game makes no effort to build them as there are enough industries on the map
13:26:09  <NGC3982> Alberth: Oh.
13:26:41  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i have nothing to add there beyond what i suggested above
13:26:44  <andythenorth> [if I've understood the code correctly]
13:27:36  <andythenorth> so what are the problems with running cb22 monthly?
13:27:54  <andythenorth> currently newgrf can control closure but not opening
13:27:57  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the question was: "what does it solve"?
13:28:13  <andythenorth> newgrf can force industries to open, assuming they can find a valid site on the map
13:28:23  <Alberth> andythenorth: new industries have very few instance on the map, so they get a higher probability to be used as replacement
13:30:06  <Alberth> assuming industries get replaced, otherwise they must be added through the slowly incrementing number of industries at the map, but that is VERY slow
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13:30:19  <andythenorth> VERY
13:30:37  <andythenorth> my proposal is to simply bypass the industry creation during gameplay
13:30:47  <andythenorth> philosophically, I can't see any problem
13:30:58  <andythenorth> let the newgrf control it
13:31:36  <andythenorth> maybe it's simply a new cb
13:32:24  <andythenorth> maybe it just runs monthly, and calls DoCreateNewIndustry() or not, based on cb result
13:32:35  <andythenorth> maybe it can run multiple times too
13:32:38  <andythenorth> per type
13:34:15  <andythenorth> cb160: monthly industry construction check.  Called or each industry type.  Return 0 to build none, or return number of this type to try and build
13:35:34  <andythenorth> or / for /s
13:35:38  <Alberth> that breaks any chance of a GS that manages industries
13:35:45  <andythenorth> that horse bolted already
13:36:58  <frosch123> it also fails for multiple industry sets
13:37:49  <andythenorth> because...?
13:39:18  <andythenorth> an alternative idea...
13:39:26  <andythenorth> actually figure out an interface between GS and Newgrf
13:39:34  <andythenorth> forget backwards compatibility with existing industry sets
13:39:47  <andythenorth> i.e. don't break them, but they're not GS compatible
13:39:54  <andythenorth> then solve these FIRS problems in a GS
13:40:11  <frosch123> because you cannot balance the total number of industries against other sets
13:40:27  <andythenorth>  frosch123 I'm not sure that's a real world goal
13:41:00  <andythenorth> how about I solve it like this for now:
13:41:20  <andythenorth> - remove the intro dates (and associated lang stuff)
13:41:23  <andythenorth> - diff that
13:41:30  <andythenorth> - put the diff somewhere safe
13:41:38  <andythenorth> - await a future solution, possibly mythical
13:41:52  <andythenorth> - reapply the diff to FIRS at that point
13:42:17  <andythenorth> all FIRS industries will be available irrespective of start date
13:42:52  <andythenorth> but it can be better in future
13:43:11  <Alberth> tag the last revision with the dates, and it's safe
13:43:17  <Alberth> and findable
13:43:28  <andythenorth> k
13:43:38  <andythenorth> I'm bored of trying to make f
13:43:58  * andythenorth is bored of not being able to type properly
13:44:05  <andythenorth> screwed up my wrists holding children
13:44:13  <andythenorth> can't tell if I've hit a key or missed it :P
13:44:35  <Alberth> and they are too yound to type, I guess :)
13:44:44  <andythenorth> too young to type anything useful
13:44:59  <andythenorth> anyway, I'm bored of trying to make things work that are fundamentally broken :)
13:45:07  <andythenorth> and every time it's discussed we can't even agree goals
13:46:11  <andythenorth> I could take the lame (avoid conflict) route, and make intro dates a parameter
13:46:16  <andythenorth> but I don't know how to code that
13:47:27  * andythenorth is being too noisy and will go away
13:51:07  <andythenorth> if I remove the intro date from the steel mill, might as well remove the iron works industry
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13:53:58  <Alberth>  I think we can agree on a goal for industries, but nobody has thought about that deeply enough and/or cared to write it down. Until we have an overall agreed idea of what an industry set should actually do in the game, we won't get anywhere probably.
13:53:58  <Alberth> The big complication here is that the solution is probably between cpp and newgrf, so you need a person that understands both to solve it
13:54:29  <andythenorth> wrt what industry set can do, we can only write down proper domain
13:54:45  <andythenorth> as there's obviously no agreement amongst players / authors about industry sets :)
13:54:48  <Alberth> "proper domain" ?
13:55:05  <andythenorth> what's in scope for industry newgrf, and what they must yield to other things
13:55:17  <Alberth> I can live with several goals, selectable by newgrf
13:55:26  <Alberth> or by player or whatever
13:55:44  <andythenorth> is it annoying to type multiple lines here?  is a paste better?
13:55:51  <andythenorth> I am going to list aims of FIRS
13:55:59  <andythenorth> and then we can mark them valid or not
13:56:03  <Alberth> make a wiki?
13:56:11  <andythenorth> ugh
13:56:15  <Alberth> or a text file
13:56:31  <Alberth> irc is so quickly lost
13:56:34  <andythenorth> forum post :P
13:57:06  <Alberth> FIRS readme :p
14:14:06  <NGC3982> Bah.
14:14:16  <NGC3982> This headache will be the death of me.
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14:20:09  <andythenorth> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1647/
14:20:33  <andythenorth> Alberth: ^
14:21:02  <andythenorth> look at the raw version, it wordwraps :P
14:21:30  <NGC3982> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXvsl8xgRxc&feature=context-gfa
14:21:37  <andythenorth> Also should add "FIRS will not attempt to be compatible with other industry sets"
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14:24:33  <Alberth> "We also want it to be a lot of fun."  lol :)     nice goal, but hard to code :)
14:25:16  <Alberth> I copied the text into my editor and pushed some sanity into it :)
14:25:24  <andythenorth> I found some typos :P
14:25:48  <andythenorth> most of the goals are met or abandoned
14:26:05  <andythenorth> hmm
14:26:24  <andythenorth> I should add "Don't much restrict where players can build industries (we don't)"
14:26:45  <Eddi|zuHause> "There will be 50 industries" <-- how strict is that goal?
14:26:49  <andythenorth> And also "Don't tie up map gen for ages with complex industry location rules"
14:27:09  <NGC3982> Alberth: I can join my game locally, so online-content should not be an issue.
14:27:15  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: not strict, it's co-incidence that I currently have 49
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14:27:20  <andythenorth> could be more, could be less
14:27:59  <NGC3982> If someone has the time, please join the ttd server at ttd.dndr.se:3979 (password: kebab) and note possible errors while handling the server GRF's?
14:28:12  <Eddi|zuHause> then rephrase it as "the aim is at around 50 industries"... but a better thing would be something like "X industries per timeframe/economy"
14:28:16  <NGC3982> That would help me see if anything is wrong with the online-content i have used, or the actual server.
14:28:37  <Alberth> NGC3982: version?
14:28:47  <NGC3982> 1.2.1
14:30:05  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: changed it to reference economies
14:30:14  <andythenorth> and 'industry types' not 'industries'
14:30:32  <Alberth> NGC3982: sorry, don't have that in my archive
14:30:44  <NGC3982> Alberth: Ah, np. :)
14:31:40  <NGC3982> But, being able to join locally or online should not affect how a client downloads online-content
14:31:49  <andythenorth> the only FIRS goal that's really blocked is "Some types of industry close and new ones appear"
14:32:04  <andythenorth> and the first part of that I could do
14:32:09  <andythenorth> the second part I can't
14:32:39  <andythenorth> but it seems to be like a thumb in dyke (dutchies will like this :P )
14:32:43  <Alberth> andythenorth: your "big industry" problem is about not being to specify wanted terraform wishes with an industry
14:32:49  <andythenorth> Alberth: yes
14:33:01  <Alberth> +able :)
14:33:05  <andythenorth> although even then, there's only so many mountains you can knock down
14:33:11  <andythenorth> might be tmwftlb
14:33:30  <Alberth> the game might impose a max amount of terraforming
14:33:46  <andythenorth> allow it to fill in sea :P
14:34:17  * NGC3982 terraforms andythenorth
14:34:17  <andythenorth> seems that trying to fix industry opening unpicks all of industry newgrf spec :P
14:34:18  <Alberth> nice, finally a chance to use your ships :p
14:34:47  * andythenorth is about to go to a pirate party
14:34:49  <andythenorth> not that kind
14:34:55  <andythenorth> the toddler kind
14:35:04  <andythenorth> what I'd appreciate is nitpick replies on the goals
14:35:18  <Alberth> I believe your opening problem is a result of your not-closing old industries policy
14:35:25  <andythenorth> maybe
14:35:36  <andythenorth> but that assumes new types are 1:1 replacement of old types
14:35:42  <andythenorth> but almost entirely, they're not
14:35:55  <Alberth> why does it assume that?
14:36:30  <andythenorth> closing old types makes way for new types?
14:36:51  <Alberth> afaik it does
14:37:24  <andythenorth> so in the case where there are no old types to close?
14:37:29  <andythenorth> there'll be no space
14:37:55  <andythenorth> bear in mind I mostly removed 'old types'
14:38:08  <NGC3982> * andythenorth is about to go to a pirate party
14:38:09  <Alberth> you have too many of some industry-types, and too few of other types. Closing an industry causes a search for a replacement, where a type with too few current instances gets a higher probability to be used
14:38:12  <NGC3982> I see, i see.
14:38:16  <andythenorth> Alberth: yes
14:38:18  <NGC3982> Yarr, and a train of men.
14:38:21  <Alberth> s/used/created
14:38:22  <andythenorth> so the problem is new types?
14:38:43  <NGC3982> andythenorth: How does children and coding match?
14:39:31  <Alberth> the problem is "replacement" which you are not doing, then, isn't it?
14:39:44  <andythenorth> you can make that case yes
14:39:50  <andythenorth> I'm not sure that's the root cause
14:39:59  <Alberth> no idea how to fix that though :(
14:40:20  <andythenorth> if I start a game in 1870....these types all need to get built: Fertiliser Plant, Bio Refinery, Aluminium Plant, Bauxite Mine, Cement Plant, Recycling Plant, Recycling Depot, Oil Platform, Oil Wells, Oil Refinery, Dairy, Petrol Pump, Plastics Plant,
14:40:32  <andythenorth> and meanwhile 0 industries are closing
14:40:44  <Alberth> you can get new industries by 2 ways, either create extra ones, or replace old ones by new ones. OpenTTD does mostly the latter
14:41:13  <Alberth> or rather "assumes that to happen"
14:45:12  <andythenorth> bbl
14:45:18  <andythenorth> toddler fun
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14:52:12  <Alberth> har harr , wb andy
14:52:28  <andythenorth_> Is var 67 available to cb 22?
14:53:33  <Chris_Booth> I never knew I have a Var 67
14:53:44  <andythenorth_> I could limit total num each type on map
14:53:57  <andythenorth_> Scaled by map size
14:54:28  <andythenorth_> Leaving room for new types
14:57:23  <Alberth> at the cost of fewer industries early in the game (if you can access var 67)
15:05:27  <Alberth> I considered that solution, but discarded it on the argument that it is nonsense to keep free industry slots for 90 years just because in 2020 a new industry becomes available
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15:14:52  <drac_boy> hi
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15:19:11  <drac_boy> hi drush
15:19:24  <drush> hi drac_boy
15:19:32  <drush> hello everyone
15:19:43  <drac_boy> how're you?
15:19:53  <drush> fine
15:19:56  <drush> you?
15:20:50  <drac_boy> doing ok
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15:33:11  <drac_boy> up to anything or not so much?
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16:06:56  <drush> just finished trying out my corei7 build of zdoom
16:07:18  *** andythenorth_ [~andytheno@149.254.250.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:08:13  <drush> not sure if choppy fps while turning is fault of stepping down optimization from O3 to O2, would have to trial an O3 build
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16:12:15  <andythenorth_> For an early start date few industries might be nice anyway
16:12:24  <andythenorth_> Although perhaps not
16:17:02  <drush> andythenorth_ have you played industry giant games?
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16:20:08  <drac_boy> drush I used to a bit
16:22:06  <drac_boy> and mm well its not related to transportation I know..but I still like Capitalism sometimes
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16:25:22  <drush> in ottd it's actually possible to control the market, just saying
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16:49:01  <TrueBrain> wb
16:49:10  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: could try an industry scheme based on distinct phases?
16:49:21  <andythenorth> not sure it fixes the opening problem, but...overlook that now
16:49:30  <andythenorth> I'm open to your suggestions on this
17:01:39  <Alberth> andythenorth: about your goals, I was thinking a bit more high level, as in, what is the function of an industry set in the game, what does it provide to a player?
17:01:45  <andythenorth> makes sense
17:01:57  <andythenorth> I wasn't intending we agree / disagree on FIRS goals
17:02:11  <andythenorth> it's just...evidence of what has come up in 4 years of FIRS
17:02:33  <andythenorth> empiricism, not theory ;)
17:04:09  <andythenorth> so what *must* an industry set provide:
17:04:13  <andythenorth> - industries, yes
17:04:33  <andythenorth> - cargos: arguably not, but it's silly not to
17:04:47  <andythenorth> what must an industry set not provide:
17:05:02  <andythenorth> - other features, e.g. new objects, vehicles etc.  And especially houses.
17:05:05  <andythenorth> - town control
17:06:07  <andythenorth> hmm
17:06:14  <andythenorth> TAI probably violates a number of those
17:06:18  <andythenorth> and it will probably be good
17:07:25  <Alberth> it needs some more work, I think, as your own list is not a good instance of this list of requirements
17:07:55  <andythenorth> are we trying to solve GS here as well?
17:08:03  <andythenorth> wrt industries?
17:08:33  <Alberth> let's abstract from how we reach the goal(s)
17:09:32  <andythenorth> k
17:10:05  <Alberth> eg your "Industries will belong to certain time periods." seems to be missing, or is that not a goal in general?
17:10:27  <andythenorth> it's not a general goal
17:10:52  <andythenorth> unless you define that it includes '1 time period - eternity'
17:11:00  <andythenorth> which then makes it a bit useless :)
17:11:56  <Alberth> my problem is a bit that "industries + cargos" is so generic that it gives no direction
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17:12:24  <Alberth> not sure how to fix it, but perhaps how industries interact with the player?????
17:13:12  <Alberth> but perhaps that's already too complicated :(
17:13:57  <Alberth> or too controversial :p
17:14:05  <andythenorth> too hard
17:14:56  <Alberth> make kinds of industry interaction?
17:15:13  <Alberth> eg one type of player probably wants fixed industries throughout the game
17:15:37  <Alberth> other players want more dynamic behaviour
17:15:50  <andythenorth> static vs dynamic?
17:16:05  <andythenorth> work out what it takes to provide each?
17:16:11  <Alberth> my guess is there are several forms of dynamic
17:16:15  <andythenorth> yes
17:16:40  <Alberth> work out what useful forms there are seems complicated enough to me atm
17:16:43  <andythenorth> I get bored quickly with taxonomy though :)
17:16:56  * andythenorth is not a good librarian
17:17:27  <andythenorth> FIRS is not doing either form well
17:17:54  <andythenorth> might be enough to say be either static or dynamic
17:18:00  <Alberth> dynamic on time, dynamic on production level, dynamic on user-interaction?
17:18:17  <andythenorth> dynamic on open/close
17:18:24  <andythenorth> so there are dimensions
17:18:58  <Alberth> dynamic w.r.t production changes
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17:22:02  <Alberth> dynamic w.r.t. number of industries in the world
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17:22:49  <andythenorth> +1
17:23:45  <Alberth> what challenge should an industry set provide to the player?
17:24:37  <Alberth> dynamic w.r.t. placement of industries?
17:25:39  <Alberth> afk for a while
17:37:43  <andythenorth> I've moved a lot of FIRS industries to start dates just before 1830
17:37:52  <andythenorth> those are the earliest trains in Pikka's sets
17:38:09  <andythenorth> before that, it's masochistic to play OpenTTD :P
17:38:18  * andythenorth usually starts 1870
17:38:33  <__ln__> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc4ROCJYbm0  some guys called Kernighan and Ritchie and others telling about how the UNIX system works
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17:51:27  * Alberth has already read "the design of the Unix operating system"
17:54:19  <andythenorth> Alberth: another dimension for industry newgrf: cares about reality, or not
17:54:35  <andythenorth> for FIRS, I try to placate my inner nerd with semi-realistic intro dates / expiry dates
17:54:39  <Alberth> how do you measure that?
17:54:57  <andythenorth> dates, cargos, appearance
17:55:02  <andythenorth> location rules
17:55:17  <andythenorth> production rules
17:55:29  <andythenorth> "cares about reality" implies dynamic
17:55:51  <andythenorth> hmm
17:56:14  <Alberth> I understand that it is a industry set property, but what does it mean in technical game play ?
17:56:28  <andythenorth> almost nothing
17:56:43  <andythenorth> if this progressed to specifying an interface to make industries, it would mean nothing
17:56:50  <andythenorth> it's a subset of Dynamic
17:56:53  <andythenorth> ignore it
17:57:05  <andythenorth> players care
17:57:26  <Alberth> yeah, it's a good openttd buzzword for selling stuff :)
17:57:29  <andythenorth> but I have multiple contradictory feature requests for FIRS, based on realism, so forget it :P
17:57:42  <andythenorth> "industries must locate in towns, more realistic"
17:57:52  <andythenorth> "industries must not locate in town, more realistic"
17:57:53  <andythenorth> :P
17:58:17  <andythenorth> static implies all cargos always available, whatever game year
17:58:21  <andythenorth> dynamic doesn't
17:58:25  <Alberth> oh, I thought "industries must not locate in towns, it is too complicated to play" :)
17:58:33  <andythenorth> don't start that debate :P
17:58:56  <andythenorth> I don't like non-available cargos btw
17:59:07  <andythenorth> it means there are vehicles that show a cargo capability, but the cargo is not on the map
17:59:19  <andythenorth> bothers my tidy mind
17:59:41  * andythenorth tea
17:59:44  <andythenorth> think on :)
17:59:59  <Eddi|zuHause> introduce a callback to hide cargos from the GUI
18:00:21  <Eddi|zuHause> based on global data (game year)
18:00:25  <andythenorth> be a pain in the arse for vehicle set authors
18:00:36  <Eddi|zuHause> why?
18:00:43  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I was thinking about that too, but it makes vehicles unpredictable
18:00:55  <andythenorth> testing is difficult, more boring
18:01:11  <andythenorth> you might have wrong refittability, but not know it
18:01:15  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: what if none of the cargos is available?
18:01:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: then the vehicle is hidden
18:01:32  <Alberth> or only after refitting?
18:02:01  <andythenorth> it's a fair point though for dynamic gameplay
18:02:14  <andythenorth> should the cargo be visible or not
18:02:49  <Alberth> the game put down a new industry, and ploep, new vehicles, without getting advance testing opportunity
18:03:05  <andythenorth> complex
18:03:07  <andythenorth> avoid
18:03:10  <andythenorth> hmm
18:03:16  <andythenorth> another dimension: evilness :P
18:03:16  <Eddi|zuHause> let's assume the cargo callback is run once per year, then after the callback run, re-check all vehicles whether the refitability is now possible, and make those vehicles available then
18:03:39  <Eddi|zuHause> when the cargo is unavailable, the industry will not show it either
18:03:40  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I see no point in making that a cb, tbh
18:03:52  <andythenorth> game could check for acceptance on map?
18:03:59  <andythenorth> no acceptance, no point transporting
18:04:07  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: haha, no, you cannot make a coal mine, as you don't have other ones :D
18:05:07  <Alberth> oh, you mean something else :)
18:05:37  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i mean a callback directly for the cargo.
18:06:00  <Eddi|zuHause> once "COAL" says it's available, you can place coal mines and power stations
18:06:22  <Alberth> interesting idea
18:06:23  <Eddi|zuHause> once "STEL" says it's available, Factories say they accept steel (they accept livestock and grain before)
18:06:56  <andythenorth> interesting
18:07:01  <andythenorth> keep it to hand :)
18:07:19  <andythenorth> if your cargo disappears?
18:07:22  <andythenorth> close industries?
18:07:43  <Alberth> reduce number of them
18:08:52  <andythenorth> example: FIRS milk could be hidden until [some date]
18:09:08  <andythenorth> then become available from Dairy Farms, triggering the construction of Dairies
18:09:22  <andythenorth> the reasons - realistic or otherwise - we can ignore for now
18:09:59  <andythenorth> Recyclables could be hidden, then when available, trigger construction of Recycling Depots / Plants
18:10:19  <andythenorth> valid use cases
18:10:43  <andythenorth> definitely static not dynamic :)
18:11:14  <andythenorth> strikes me that whole chains appearing by date is more interesting than single new industries
18:11:40  <andythenorth> openttd gameplay does better with graph-type stuff
18:13:54  <Eddi|zuHause> pop up a news message "new cargo introduced: <type>. This new invention causes a temporary increase in economic activity."
18:14:05  <Eddi|zuHause> and then run the industry generator a few times
18:14:58  <Eddi|zuHause> and pop up news messages (or prototype previews) for new vehicles
18:15:15  <andythenorth> much more the gameplay I was trying to create with FIRS
18:15:27  <andythenorth> it's a straight copy of Railroad Tycoon 3 tbh :P
18:15:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i have never played that game
18:15:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i wonder if i still have RRT1 around somewhere
18:15:57  <andythenorth> new cargo becomes available, vehicles can now carry it, and the map will spawn a bunch of the new industries
18:16:12  <andythenorth> RT3 scenarios are quite tightly scripted, so it works rather well
18:16:44  <andythenorth> things like "1853: fertiliser plants are invented, you can now deliver fertiliser to farms for a 50% production boost"
18:17:08  <andythenorth> but also dynamic acceptance is possible, which we can't have
18:17:29  <andythenorth> "After 1860 all Iron Ore must be delivered to a Steel Mill; Tool Shops no longer accept it"
18:17:54  <andythenorth> we can nearly do that, but the industry window text is broken
18:20:51  <Eddi|zuHause> it's difficult to make cargo disappear, gameplay wise
18:21:07  <Eddi|zuHause> because there are existing industries and vehicles that carry them
18:21:27  <andythenorth> hmm
18:21:42  <andythenorth> needs the equivalent of the climate availability trick for vehicles :P
18:21:47  <Eddi|zuHause> so first close all industries, then remove the cargo? what about industries that produce two things, the other thing doesn't have to disappear
18:21:49  <andythenorth> "no more will be produced"
18:22:04  <andythenorth> no the other thing doesn't disappear
18:22:17  <Eddi|zuHause> remove the cargo, leaving industries which don't produce anything?
18:23:57  <andythenorth> hmm
18:24:06  <andythenorth> what if it's a secondary that requires both inputs?
18:24:13  <andythenorth> meh, in that case the author screwed up :P
18:24:18  <Eddi|zuHause> what about NewGRFs checking for cargo availability? they need separate checks for "is currently available" and "is potentially available in the future/past"
18:24:49  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what if the two industries are from different sets? :)
18:26:00  <andythenorth> [shrug]
18:26:29  <andythenorth> what if we delegate all control of cargos to the GS?
18:26:49  <Alberth> that just shifts the problem imho
18:26:57  <andythenorth> industries become a little more dumb
18:27:20  <andythenorth> they simply produce or accept the active cargos according to [some internal rules]
18:27:37  <andythenorth> GS gets no control over production mechanic, but gets to control overall economy
18:27:45  <Alberth> hmm, we moved away from goals
18:27:48  <andythenorth> sorry
18:27:48  <Eddi|zuHause> that can't work
18:27:52  <andythenorth> got a bit implementation-ish
18:28:08  <Eddi|zuHause> can't decide global economy when you can't make sense of local economy
18:28:27  <Eddi|zuHause> and you can't bundle newgrf and game script
18:28:30  <andythenorth> no
18:28:40  <andythenorth> it's always baffled me quite a lot
18:28:44  <Alberth> why do you have changing industries, from a game play point of view?
18:28:56  <andythenorth> when we discuss GS and newgrf, on one hand it's refused that GS *must* depend on newgrf
18:29:05  <andythenorth> i.e. we want to be able to write GS that works with any newgrf
18:29:26  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: more dynamic/less boring
18:29:45  <Alberth> how less boring?
18:29:56  <andythenorth> on the other hand, we want tight integration between newgrf and GS, so GS can control everything
18:30:00  <andythenorth> kind of confusing to me
18:30:20  <Alberth> does it make a difference whether you are dynamic in changing production or in making/closing industries?
18:30:47  <andythenorth> yes
18:30:48  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: introducing a new cargo type is a different challenge after your network is already set up than when you start from scratch with all cargos present
18:31:47  <Eddi|zuHause> you might have to introduce a new delivery point, instead of delivering more to the same point
18:32:22  <andythenorth> +1
18:32:32  <Eddi|zuHause> many players connect all primary industries to the same secondary industry. that can't happen with completely new secondary industries
18:33:03  <Eddi|zuHause> (unless the player funds the industry directly next to his dropoff station, of course)
18:33:20  <Alberth> but they are all just forms of "interesting game play", I think
18:33:45  <Alberth> which some users like and others hate
18:33:46  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. different forms. different challenges.
18:33:47  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you've clarified what I meant above about graph based gameplay
18:34:07  <andythenorth> introducing a new industry which is just a variant of existing chains doesn't necessitate changing the graph
18:34:17  <andythenorth> they're mostly kind of boring, I've tried it in FIRS
18:34:19  <Eddi|zuHause> there needs to be a fundamental gameplay difference whether you play original, PBI, ECS or FIRS
18:34:22  <andythenorth> a new chain is a new graph
18:34:35  <Eddi|zuHause> not just lots of the same, with different graphics
18:34:57  * Alberth thinks of a certain new baset set :p
18:35:07  <andythenorth> FIRS suffers from trying not to be too flavoursome
18:35:18  <andythenorth> it's mostly just "more" + pretty graphics
18:35:34  <Alberth> or perhaps from not choosing?
18:35:50  <andythenorth> hence why I often contemplate removing supplies
18:36:00  <andythenorth> as they're the only contentious thing in it :P
18:36:10  <andythenorth> the middle of the road is a dangerous place to be though :P
18:36:31  <andythenorth> FISH, HEQS, and CHIPS are more definite in their character
18:37:03  * andythenorth has learnt a lesson from all this :P
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18:38:27  <Ryton> !password
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18:38:47  <Eddi|zuHause> oh what a rare sight these days :)
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18:38:56  <Ryton> oops
18:39:27  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: rather remove everything except the supplies and start designing from there :)
18:39:38  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: heh
18:39:43  <andythenorth> supplies are where I started :P
18:39:54  <andythenorth> I only invented them to give purpose to some small HEQS vehicles :P
18:39:59  <andythenorth> I should have stuck to that :P
18:40:25  <andythenorth> I wanted an industry set that would give me an excuse to include nodwells in HEQS
18:40:28  <andythenorth> it grewed
18:41:46  <andythenorth> http://foremost.ca/index_nodwell.php
18:41:58  <Alberth> andythenorth: many people think supplies are a good idea
18:42:15  <andythenorth> yes but they don't agree which idea
18:42:25  <andythenorth> it's like in India.  Everyone agrees Indian food is best.
18:42:38  <andythenorth> but get them in a room and they argue viciously about how it should be cooked :P
18:43:08  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I am 33% convinced that I should stop FIRS, declare it 1.0
18:43:12  <andythenorth> then start a new industry set
18:43:30  <andythenorth> I think economies are a bit of a sticking plaster on the whole concept
18:44:01  <andythenorth> hmm
18:44:15  <andythenorth> I also want to learn GS so I can script scenarios that take 1-3 hours to play
18:44:30  <andythenorth> GS can be bound to specific newgrf via the scenario?
18:44:32  <Eddi|zuHause> you can't cram "old" and "new" industries in the same set without economies
18:45:12  <andythenorth> empirically you're correct :)
18:45:22  <Alberth> andythenorth: do they know what they like on supplies? (or is that where they disagree on?)
18:45:47  <andythenorth> pretty much universally, people like being able to control primary production
18:45:52  <andythenorth> after that, less agreement :P
18:46:47  * andythenorth has ideas
18:47:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i like distributing a cargo to many different destinations, which have an impact (i don't like distributing mail, due to that second part). but i dislike scheduling drop-by-drop, so i want a stockpile
18:48:45  <andythenorth> I am considering 'just' making multiple industry newgrfs, each bound to a GS
18:49:13  <andythenorth> I can probably implement it with one core python build script, and a package for each newgrf that over-rides base classes
18:49:37  <andythenorth> all graphics etc can be global
18:49:43  <andythenorth> behaviour can be locally over-ridden
18:50:02  <andythenorth> then I put the kids to bed, and play 1 or 2 hours of challenge-driven gameplay
18:50:13  <andythenorth> then I go to sleep, get up at 5.30am and do it all again :P
18:50:31  <andythenorth> I stop worrying about multiplayer, or co-op gameplay, or realism or any of the other crap
18:50:57  <andythenorth> FIRS goes 1.0 and I stop working on it
18:51:19  <andythenorth> I get a lot of "don't change xyz" about FIRS, but not a lot of help maintaining or finishing
18:51:29  <andythenorth> 4 years is enough
18:52:13  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: do you actually play games?  If so, how long do you play them for?
18:53:26  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the few times i play games, i either throw them away after a day, or i play them over several months
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18:54:19  <Alberth> my last game was with FISH for the first time, and a lot of water, I got upto 2020+ iirc. Otherwise mostly a day, about 25-30 game years
18:55:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i have lots of games lying around that started in 1920 and stopped 1925-ish
18:55:30  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: mine go about 3 months :P
18:55:48  <Eddi|zuHause> and only few games which actually reached 2010-ish
18:55:57  <Eddi|zuHause> and i never reached 2050
18:56:08  <Eddi|zuHause> only 2030 in some old TT games
18:56:13  <andythenorth> what date do you start?
18:56:16  <andythenorth> 1920?
18:56:19  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
18:56:30  <Alberth> 1950, sometimes 1945
18:56:33  <Eddi|zuHause> due to lack of early vehicle set
18:56:41  <andythenorth> you need German?
18:56:53  <Eddi|zuHause> it's what i'm most familar with
18:57:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i tried UKRS
18:57:08  <Eddi|zuHause> but it just doesn't have the same connection
18:57:40  <Eddi|zuHause> my NARS game that i played on the USA map is one of the 1925-ish games :)
18:57:48  <andythenorth> so in early games you also find a lack of trams, RVs etc?
18:57:55  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
18:58:12  <andythenorth> I was trying to support back to 1700-ish (DanMacK persuaded me)
18:58:17  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i suggested making the horses of eGRVTS as a separate grf
18:58:20  <andythenorth> but now I'm not going earlier than 1870
18:58:33  <andythenorth> FISH and HEQS are being setup for start 1870-1875
18:58:57  <Eddi|zuHause> CETS is designed for 1870, 1920, 1950 and 1990 starts
18:59:04  <andythenorth> makes sense
18:59:06  <andythenorth> epochs
18:59:23  <andythenorth> 1870 provides vehicles which aren't agonisingly slow and small
18:59:26  <Eddi|zuHause> but you can also start anywhere inbetween
18:59:37  <andythenorth> 1870 also means most heavy industry chains exist
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18:59:52  <andythenorth> aluminium / plastics don't
18:59:57  <andythenorth> oil, just about
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19:00:13  <andythenorth> give or take some gameplay adjustments to reality
19:01:43  <andythenorth> plastics isn't a FIRS chain anyway, it's just an industry type
19:01:55  <andythenorth> it adds no new cargo transformations
19:02:34  * andythenorth starts thinking about set as multiple linkgraphs, with each graph comprising a set of transforms between cargo types
19:02:43  <andythenorth> probably doesn't help much :P
19:03:40  <andythenorth> the question of removing industries then becomes
19:03:49  <andythenorth> - does it eliminate a graph
19:04:00  <andythenorth> - or eliminate certain directed links in the graph
19:04:10  <andythenorth> opening industries then becomes:
19:04:15  <andythenorth> - does it create a new graph
19:04:28  <andythenorth> - or simply add links to the new node
19:04:56  <andythenorth> where each node is a particular transform of cargo, not an industry type
19:05:07  <andythenorth> so nothing -> COAL is a node
19:05:12  <andythenorth> COAL -> STEEL is a node
19:05:34  <andythenorth> hmm
19:05:38  <andythenorth> that's not 100% right
19:05:43  <andythenorth> but it's interesting
19:05:53  <andythenorth> who's good at graphs? :P
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19:06:11  <Rubidium> Edsger?
19:06:22  <andythenorth> is he here :P
19:07:21  <Rubidium> some people might say he is
19:07:26  <andythenorth> if Dairy Farm and Sheep Farm both produce livestock (from nothing), one node or two?
19:10:02  <andythenorth> probably the amounts are significant
19:10:05  <andythenorth> more so when processing
19:10:20  <andythenorth> 8 in = 2 out and 8 in = 4 out are two different nodes
19:10:43  <Rubidium> isn't livestock in tonnes, so it shouldn't matter that much I'd say
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19:11:43  <andythenorth> items :)
19:12:11  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so safe to say you want more dynamic gameplay?  Less static?
19:13:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i want more control over which parts are dynamic. don't just throw everything in there and pretend it's good gameplay
19:13:14  <andythenorth> you want control at which point?
19:13:16  <andythenorth> during the game?
19:13:20  <andythenorth> setting up the game?
19:13:24  <andythenorth> by choosing which newgrf?
19:14:37  <Eddi|zuHause> one of the later two mostly
19:15:44  <andythenorth> ok
19:15:48  * andythenorth concurs
19:16:31  <andythenorth> design smell: in default game, choosing climate is important for resulting gameplay
19:16:40  <andythenorth> with FIRS, it's kind of irrelevant, and 'meh'
19:17:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i think that's alright
19:17:21  <andythenorth> I'm not suggesting tying to climate
19:17:29  <andythenorth> more that original game contains 4 gameplay options
19:17:43  <Eddi|zuHause> so? and FIRS contains a 5th gameplay option
19:18:16  <andythenorth> so my point is, how about a 6th? :)
19:18:21  <Eddi|zuHause> why does FIRS artificially need a 6th, 7th and 8th gameplay option if it doesn't want to?
19:18:30  <andythenorth> I'm bored of it?
19:18:39  <Eddi|zuHause> why mut that 6th option tie to climates?
19:18:43  <Eddi|zuHause> *must
19:18:51  <andythenorth> no that's not essential
19:19:02  <Eddi|zuHause> that 6th option is exactly "economies"
19:19:55  <andythenorth> rather than make separate, simpler newgrfs?
19:20:21  <Eddi|zuHause> that's an implementation decision, not a design decision
19:20:26  <andythenorth> k
19:20:41  <andythenorth> I am feeling more constrained by implementation, but nvm
19:20:46  <Eddi|zuHause> can make economies via parameter, or via separate (exclusive) newgrfs
19:20:59  <Eddi|zuHause> or addon-newgrfs like "vectors"
19:21:03  <andythenorth> so we already have plenty of ideas for economies wrt to industry and cargo inclusion
19:21:06  <andythenorth> what about gameplay?
19:21:16  <andythenorth> in my design for economies, most gameplay remains same
19:21:20  <andythenorth> for testing and coding reasons
19:21:35  <andythenorth> valid, or silly?
19:21:41  <Eddi|zuHause> valid
19:21:46  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe small variations
19:22:03  <andythenorth> ok
19:22:39  <andythenorth> examples?
19:23:01  <Eddi|zuHause> for example the "graph": the "basic" economy could have few large farms, while the "agriculture" economy could have many small farms (with clustering)
19:23:44  <andythenorth> so that totally changes required network topology
19:23:44  <Eddi|zuHause> each setting a different focus on how to distribute supplies and gather the cargo for longer hauls
19:23:51  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
19:24:38  <andythenorth> so our primary design question is 'what network topologies does this encourage' ?
19:24:46  <andythenorth> followed by "is it a fun narrative" ?
19:26:04  <andythenorth> so one variation might indeed be handling of delivered supplies
19:26:40  <Eddi|zuHause> let's start with 3 economies: "basic" - introducing the concept of supplies, but changing not a lot from original gameplay otherwise. "agriculture" - lots of small industries with a spread out network topology. "manufacturing" - very long chains of industries, hauling cargo back and forth, potentially for a feedback effect
19:27:22  <Eddi|zuHause> imagine "manufacturing" like car suppliers and stuff
19:27:33  <andythenorth> +1
19:27:56  <andythenorth> industry closing / opening affects network topology.  So part of the economy?  Or a parameter (not favoured by me)
19:28:15  <Eddi|zuHause> it really should be a parameter
19:28:32  <Eddi|zuHause> but it would be better if the game offered it as difficulty setting
19:28:44  <andythenorth> parameter because it's better?  Or because people will whine?
19:29:31  <Eddi|zuHause> vehicle sets don't forbid breakdowns just because the author hates them
19:29:38  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a game setting like it should be
19:29:45  <Eddi|zuHause> players can decide for themselves
19:29:52  <andythenorth> breakdowns affect network topology?
19:29:58  <Eddi|zuHause> most certainly
19:30:02  <andythenorth> +1
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19:30:33  <Eddi|zuHause> just browse the screenshot/savegame forums for layouts how to service depots effectively :)
19:31:24  * andythenorth wonders idly, what if we stopped arsing about in newgrf, and provided a better open / close behaviour in game
19:32:20  <andythenorth> it's such a common player request, to prevent closing
19:32:27  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
19:32:28  <andythenorth> and if done sanely, it could be exposed to GS :P
19:32:43  <Eddi|zuHause> but then all the "yet another advanced setting" trolls come out
19:33:07  <Eddi|zuHause> saying "it's already possible in NewGRF. won't be done"
19:33:13  <andythenorth> horse has bolted
19:33:23  <andythenorth> 10 million advanced settings already
19:33:50  *** kais58 [~kais58@host-92-22-114-163.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:34:46  <andythenorth> can the trolls go away and write an industry newgrf
19:34:47  <Eddi|zuHause> what frosch123 said earlier could be interesting, an "economy speed" setting. frequency of opening/closing independent from amount of industries
19:35:06  <andythenorth> and also can the trolls write a GS-newgrf interface definition :P
19:36:34  <Alberth> good night
19:36:38  <andythenorth> bye Alberth
19:37:01  *** Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has left #openttd []
19:37:07  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: opening/closing would respect cb22 etc?
19:37:19  <andythenorth> sounds like an alternative way to solve my industry opening problem :P
19:37:32  <andythenorth> but that's a distraction
19:37:37  <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly does cb22 do?
19:37:49  <andythenorth> industry availability: no | probability
19:38:10  <andythenorth> called when the game tries to generate an industry, or player funds
19:38:20  <Eddi|zuHause> aha
19:38:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see why it wouldn't respect that...
19:39:56  <andythenorth> I'm reading industry_cmd.cpp to see when industries are generated during game
19:39:59  <andythenorth> can't find the call
19:40:13  <andythenorth> there's a MonthlyLoop that handles how many are *needed*
19:40:21  <andythenorth> but doesn't make the call to try and build them
19:41:22  <andythenorth> closure is driven by ChangeIndustryProduction()
19:41:34  <andythenorth> which is called monthly and [occasionally - can't figure out when]
19:42:01  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: CreateNewIndustryHelper?
19:43:26  *** Chrill [Chrill@c83-253-89-11.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd
19:43:53  <andythenorth> I don't think that's got the loop for 'generate industry during gameplay'?
19:44:15  <andythenorth> IndustryDailyLoop
19:44:34  <Eddi|zuHause> but you can check from where it's called
19:44:38  <Eddi|zuHause> and then backwards
19:44:57  <andythenorth>  // Between 3% and 9% chance of creating a new industry
19:45:04  <andythenorth> l2665
19:47:02  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, _industry_builder.TryBuildNewIndustry();
19:47:53  <andythenorth> so currently this is called every day
19:48:36  *** kais58_ [~kais58@host-92-22-159-80.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:48:40  <andythenorth> and the requirements for num. industries are adjusted monthly, more or less in sync with industry closing + removing from map
19:48:46  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it sums up industry_daily_change_counter until it tips over
19:48:50  <andythenorth> ah
19:48:57  <andythenorth> details I miss in C++ :|
19:49:07  <andythenorth> l2647 I guess
19:51:49  <Eddi|zuHause> so the game could track the return values of cb22, and if an industry becomes available, increase the industry counter temporarily
19:52:25  <andythenorth> that more or less implements what I requested, differently :)
19:52:58  <Eddi|zuHause> combine that with reserving one industry slot per unavailable industry
19:53:13  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, that doesn't quite work
19:53:50  <Eddi|zuHause> if an industry becomes available, and another unavailable at the same time, the number of reserved slots doesn't change
19:54:07  <Eddi|zuHause> so no industry will be created
19:54:25  <Eddi|zuHause> since it doesn't count the slots per-industry
19:54:33  <Eddi|zuHause> which would be more complicated
19:55:15  <Eddi|zuHause> when the industry is unavailable, it can also not predict the probability
19:55:35  <andythenorth> that bit is complicated yes :P
19:56:01  <andythenorth> I'm not sure that I'm wrong with my idea (I would do it in newgrf initially) of reserving slots at game start
19:56:50  <andythenorth> so if 50 industries are required, but 10% of types not available yet, I only allow 45 to be built
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19:59:44  <Eddi|zuHause> possibility: introduce a flag, so in cb22 you can return "disable | probability | force". then the game would build this industry despite no slots being available
20:00:21  <Eddi|zuHause> if you can check for number of industries of same type during cb22
20:01:10  <andythenorth> is 'force' covered by 'there must be at least one instance of this industry'?
20:01:20  <andythenorth> there's something in the code about that, didn't understand it last night
20:01:34  <andythenorth> I know that flag is supposed to prevent closing
20:01:43  <andythenorth> but can't tell what it does during random generation
20:02:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really know either
20:02:40  <andythenorth> not sure Alberth does either
20:02:46  <Eddi|zuHause> but you could "force" more than one industry per map
20:02:48  <andythenorth> I think when he tried to fix it he found some oddities
20:02:54  <andythenorth> I like the idea
20:03:05  <Eddi|zuHause> which would be necessary for farms on small maps
20:03:27  <Eddi|zuHause> where the number of industry slots is usually significantly lower than the number of industry types
20:03:34  <andythenorth> yes
20:04:06  <andythenorth> for a 256x256 map, FIRS needs at least 'normal' industry setting
20:04:17  <andythenorth> numof_industry_table
20:04:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i played 128x256 with "high", and still got only one industry per type
20:04:52  <andythenorth> maybe the game should query the newgrf for num types defined
20:05:02  <andythenorth> then calculate the ratios for high, low etc
20:05:03  <Eddi|zuHause> which makes farms rather annoying
20:05:27  <andythenorth> very low = 10
20:05:56  <andythenorth> which is fine for default temperate, with 10 types
20:06:14  *** kais58_ [~kais58@host-92-22-209-35.as13285.net] has joined #openttd
20:06:31  <andythenorth> fails for Arctic interestingly
20:06:43  <andythenorth> looks like default industries don't use the 'force one' flag
20:07:36  <andythenorth> (Arctic has 11)
20:08:10  <andythenorth> so
20:08:18  <andythenorth> there are quite a number of interesting options here
20:08:27  <andythenorth> how does 'economy speed' work for the player?
20:08:56  <andythenorth> frosch123: ^ ?
20:09:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i presume it changes industry_daily_increment. so you get fewer openings, not sure about closings
20:10:02  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly the 256-tick callback could be delayed
20:10:09  <andythenorth> I think we leave internal behaviour  of newgrfs out of this pondering for now
20:10:11  <Eddi|zuHause> breaking ECS in multiple places ;)
20:10:28  <andythenorth> assume vanilla industries
20:10:47  <V453000> ecs is broken itself already ;)
20:11:08  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't tried ECS in ages
20:11:48  <andythenorth> ach, it's very hard doing industry sets, ECS gets unfairly reviewed
20:12:17  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: number of random industry changes/opening/closures
20:12:21  <frosch123> number of calls to cb 35
20:12:32  *** kais58 [~kais58@host-92-22-137-140.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:12:40  <frosch123> only works if industries do not make "monthly" decisions
20:12:40  <andythenorth> frosch123: what would you do with monthly prod change? [/me is baffled]
20:12:51  <frosch123> i consider monthly crap :p
20:12:55  <frosch123> it scales bad
20:12:56  <andythenorth> oh
20:12:59  <andythenorth> that explains something :P
20:13:03  <Eddi|zuHause> what's cb35?
20:13:09  <andythenorth> I consider monthly only sane route :P
20:13:17  <andythenorth> this is why we have not been able to agree a fix to closure :P
20:13:56  <frosch123> if you use monthly the number of events depend on the number of industries, so usually you have a self-enforcing system
20:14:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i vaguely remember that ECS broke on some of the daylength patches, because the 256-tick callback was called on daylenght*256 ticks
20:14:06  <frosch123> if industries tend to become more, they become way more
20:14:22  <frosch123> if industries tend to close, they close faster the more they are
20:14:24  *** roadt [~roadt@114.96.131.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:14:35  <frosch123> random change otoh is independent of total number of industries
20:14:48  <frosch123> (though it behaves bad if there are very few industries on the map)
20:14:58  <frosch123> thus economy speed would have to consider the desired industry density
20:16:12  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: that's is only a faulty implementation
20:16:34  <frosch123> ecs accumulates cargo delivered in a month
20:16:51  <frosch123> and then decides for an absolute production amount for the next month
20:17:20  <frosch123> it then produced 1/8 of that planned amount, which fails if there are more than 8 production cycles
20:17:41  <frosch123> it could be coded totally daylength agnostic, if it would use the day of the month
20:18:11  <Eddi|zuHause> afair it relied on the tick counter
20:18:15  <frosch123> and then produce (day of month)/31 * (planned amount) - (already produced this month)
20:21:25  <andythenorth> so in case of monthly cb, prod change I would retain in FIRS
20:21:32  <andythenorth> but closure could be delegated
20:21:52  <andythenorth> I know they're tied together by the return values, but I would find a way to figure that out
20:21:57  <frosch123> andythenorth: the problem are primary industries
20:22:04  <andythenorth> because...?
20:22:17  <frosch123> everyone seems to model them in some way, that they close when the production drops below some amount
20:22:38  <NGC3982> Im kind of noticing something i don't feel the favour of.
20:23:10  <NGC3982> Using the 2CC set, i notice that selecting engines due to anything but maximum speed is completely irrelevant to the result.
20:23:22  <frosch123> and everyone makes production changes monthly and depend on servicing
20:23:26  <NGC3982> Even in hard games, with very hilly terrain.
20:23:33  <andythenorth> frosch123: isn't that just default behaviour?
20:23:55  <frosch123> NGC3982: play nuts
20:24:20  <frosch123> if you want a set that heads for gameplay/playability
20:24:26  <NGC3982> I can't complain, of course. The numbers are realistic and i love the diversity of different engines
20:24:48  <V453000> realistic :p
20:25:03  <NGC3982> (At least in the first part of the game) :P
20:25:04  <frosch123> diversity in 2cc set?
20:25:09  <frosch123> i thought it only has mmu?
20:26:27  * frosch123 bets V453000 has a highlight on nuts :p
20:26:34  <NGC3982> frosch123: "mmu"?
20:26:42  <frosch123> multiple units
20:26:42  <V453000> no I just randomly read channels once upon a time :)
20:26:47  <andythenorth> frosch123: so newgrf authors should never return 03 or 04  from monthly prod change?
20:26:51  <andythenorth> is one idea?
20:26:54  <V453000> I dont have any highlights in fact :)
20:26:54  <NGC3982> V453000: Don't you agree? :/
20:26:55  <frosch123> NGC3982: all those tgv, ice, stuff
20:27:18  <frosch123> front/back engine with matching wagons in the middle
20:27:22  <V453000> NGC3982: yes, it is realistic, I basically laugh at the word realistic where-ever used :p
20:27:37  <NGC3982> frosch123: Yes. With diversity, i mean the great number of trains and numbers in what-ever-era-you-play-at-era.
20:27:39  <frosch123> instead of some engine pulling a random selection of wagon
20:28:06  <NGC3982> V453000: Hehe. Well, subjective relativity strikes lika SCUD in Bagdad.
20:28:25  <NGC3982> frosch123: Ah, i see.
20:28:27  <V453000> NGC3982: the general gameplay problem of 2cc set is that there are only like 4 strongest engines ... meaning you get one in 1920, second in 1936, third in 1970 and fourth in 2000, done
20:28:34  <V453000> not what I call diversity :)
20:29:01  <frosch123> andythenorth: monthly changes make every industry behave the same: so they all close at the same time, the number of industries directly affects the number of newspaper, ... and so on
20:29:07  <NGC3982> V453000: Yes, and that may be the basis of my problem here.
20:29:11  <frosch123> with random change, ottd controls the number of changes
20:29:13  <andythenorth> frosch123: agreed
20:29:17  <frosch123> and can balace it itself
20:29:22  <andythenorth> I only use monthly because I don't trust the game
20:29:28  <V453000> NGC3982: try nuts :) trains improve every 10 years at most
20:29:33  <andythenorth> (for closure)
20:29:35  <NGC3982> V453000: Oh, i see.
20:29:36  <V453000> and there is always a choice
20:29:37  * andythenorth checks code
20:29:39  <frosch123> monthly is nice for production changes
20:29:45  <frosch123> but it is crap for opening/closure
20:29:50  * NGC3982 should start making his own train NewGRFs.
20:30:06  <andythenorth> FIRS primaries appear to use the random change
20:30:09  <frosch123> s/production changes/small production changes/
20:30:14  <NGC3982> At least that's simple enough for Only-made-tutorial-GRF-NGC3982.
20:30:35  <V453000> prepare to spend an awful lot of time :P
20:30:36  <andythenorth> I haven't read all the code, but most closing in FIRS is delegated to 'let game sort it out'
20:31:01  <NGC3982> V453000: Well, you guys inspire me.
20:31:08  <NGC3982> I mean, look at andy.
20:31:23  <NGC3982> I could never combine coding with kids.
20:31:37  <V453000> yes that is incredible :)
20:31:39  <andythenorth> it's easy, I just neglect them
20:31:43  <NGC3982> ;)
20:31:45  <andythenorth> and I don't write much code either
20:31:58  <V453000> lies
20:32:07  <V453000> andy already taught kids to code and has them as slaves
20:32:26  <NGC3982> andythenorth: Does the number of lines you write in code exceed the number of lines you write on IRC?
20:32:37  <NGC3982> V453000: Well, someone has to make the animations.
20:32:56  <andythenorth> frosch123: remove 03 and 04 as return values from cb35?
20:33:10  <andythenorth> and instead provide an advanced setting that affects frequency of random prod change?
20:33:43  <V453000> animations take 10x more time than coding on a train set for example
20:33:48  *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable133.8-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd
20:34:01  <drac_boy> hi
20:34:02  <NGC3982> V453000: I know. I noticed that making a normal train is the simplest of coding.
20:34:20  <NGC3982> Since you really don't do anything else but ..replace values.
20:34:29  <andythenorth> make closure frequency player's decision, not newgrf authors (although newgrf could still return 03 / 04 etc to cb29)
20:34:44  <V453000> well you do add some features from time to time, but once you add it for one train it is just copypaste, find and replace, done
20:34:53  <andythenorth> make frequency option include 'none'
20:34:54  <andythenorth> stop handling player requests for 'please stop industries closing'
20:35:04  * NGC3982 still wants to make that TRON map.
20:35:05  <andythenorth> remove parameters from FIRS, ECS etc for closure handling
20:35:31  <frosch123> andythenorth: first fix default industries, might be easier :p
20:35:43  <andythenorth> possibly also eliminate smooth / non-smooth economy setting
20:36:20  <andythenorth> removing the smooth/not economy setting would erm...involve rewriting about 30% of industry_cmd.cpp
20:36:21  <andythenorth> :P
20:36:30  <andythenorth> frosch123: fix how?
20:38:08  <frosch123> i foigot
20:38:20  <andythenorth> :)
20:38:30  <andythenorth> just move them to openttd.grf
20:38:42  <andythenorth> strip most of the legacy code from industry_cmd.cpp, creating some sanity there
20:39:07  <andythenorth> default to using them from openttd.grf if no other grf defines industry features (or such)
20:42:10  <Eddi|zuHause> that's already a problem, because one GRF cannot disable industries introduced by another GRF
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20:42:33  <andythenorth> heh, there's always something :)
20:42:39  *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable133.8-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd
20:42:51  * andythenorth wonders if removing the monthly prod change cb might be beneficial
20:42:52  <drac_boy> hrm, weird router :|
20:43:09  <andythenorth> I rely on that cb for setting multiple things iirc
20:46:01  <andythenorth> industry spec is like a pushmepullyou
20:46:36  <andythenorth> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=pushmepullyou&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=JbwmULuwGOmx0AWLoYGoCg&biw=1276&bih=668&sei=PLwmUOfZHoa90QXX7oCgCg
20:46:42  <andythenorth> look at just one part, all seems sane
20:47:07  <andythenorth> try and solve it in total, brain explodes
20:47:35  * drac_boy hasn't had any problem reading the whole grf wiki before? :)
20:48:16  *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-154-36-54.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:50:53  <andythenorth> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/raw/1648/
20:50:58  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: frosch123 ^ ?
20:52:49  *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
20:53:04  <Eddi|zuHause> a start would be, if newgrf says "close" on monthly callback, the game takes that as a suggestion, instead of blindly following it?
20:54:31  <andythenorth> could be
20:54:50  <andythenorth> 'recommend' rather than 'require' close
20:54:58  <andythenorth> game decides
20:55:15  <andythenorth> newgrf is crippled wrt deciding whole economy, that is proven.
20:55:23  <andythenorth> and making newgrf less crippled would cripple GS
20:57:15  <drac_boy> btw having tried it for a short time just to find out about something before I'm wondering..is the extra zoom-in level meant only for 32bpp grfs?  because everything looks so pixelated badly :)
20:57:45  <andythenorth> 2x is ok, 4x not
20:59:00  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: it has no relation to 32bpp. but it can't magically create new graphics for all existing stuff
21:00:08  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: you can make pure 8bpp GRFs for extra zoom in, but nobody did that yet
21:01:06  <drac_boy> hm if a pixel is a fixed size how do you even make 8bpp gain more details without going into half pixels?
21:01:12  * drac_boy thinks me is a little confused
21:01:19  <andythenorth> you draw bigger sprites
21:03:00  <andythenorth> yay
21:03:10  <andythenorth> a FIRS game, with Dairies in 1870
21:03:11  <drac_boy> wouldn't that then look too big in older ottd/patch builds .. maybe it'll be better if I hadn't asked about that extra zoom in the first place -_-
21:04:43  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: you provide a different image for each zoom level
21:04:44  <Rubidium> drac_boy: I doubt those older builds will be able to recognise the file as a NewGRF
21:06:02  <Eddi|zuHause> 32bpp is not 3D/vector graphics, it's still pixels, just with more colours
21:07:05  <drac_boy> Rubidium hmm so I guess its sorta like a grf fork perhaps
21:07:39  <Rubidium> if Windows 8 is a fork of Windows 7, then yes
21:08:18  <drac_boy> heh I was thinking more like eg trainset_old8.grf vs trainset_new8.grf
21:08:29  <drac_boy> or something along that sort of naming
21:09:29  <Rubidium> why would you do that?
21:10:11  <drac_boy> anyway I guess the extra zoom-in could have one slight funny use ... giving someone that old low resolution dos appearance :p
21:11:14  <Rubidium> just run at 640x480 and you're almost there
21:11:58  <andythenorth> that's what I'm doing
21:12:09  <andythenorth> it's about same size as 2x zoom
21:12:24  <andythenorth> is there an irc-client inside the game?
21:12:35  <andythenorth> I keep having to leave full screen to talk :P
21:12:43  <drac_boy> andythenorth window it :p
21:12:46  <Eddi|zuHause> there's an ingame chat, and autopilot as a relay :)
21:12:59  <drac_boy> heh
21:13:03  <Eddi|zuHause> coop people used to do that
21:13:59  <andythenorth> plausible
21:14:29  <andythenorth> imagine making this channel available in game by default to all players
21:14:35  <andythenorth> perhaps not :P
21:16:28  <drac_boy> I'll rather not..especially when you don't want to mix player chatter with irc chat :)
21:17:09  <drac_boy> could you imagine reading 'you mind moving that bridge at berlon?' in here? :)
21:20:06  <andythenorth> flat map
21:20:14  <andythenorth> let's see if I complain about rivers less
21:20:26  <andythenorth> nope
21:20:33  <andythenorth> docks are still unusably stupid with rivers
21:20:44  <andythenorth> don't make me excavate half the landscape to unload my ships
21:20:59  <drac_boy> ?
21:22:51  <NGC3982> Gosh darnit.
21:22:53  <NGC3982> ECS is hard.
21:23:02  <andythenorth> http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7057/6848072241_80f08a895e_z.jpg
21:23:19  <andythenorth> http://www.nbsanity.me.uk/images/Cruising%202005/Cruising%202005-Images/14.jpg
21:23:45  <drac_boy> NGC3982 I always only play with a few ecs vectors .. and never ever touch chemical/machinery :|
21:24:37  <andythenorth> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/Llangollen_canal_wharf.jpg
21:24:42  <drac_boy> NGC3982 and mm I never really liked parts of PBI .. one major problem was that the steel mill could not recognize when a map had too much coal but little iron ore otherwise
21:24:52  <andythenorth> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Cromford_Canal_Wharf_(cafe).jpg
21:24:54  <drac_boy> meaning soon your coal trains eventually gets locked out
21:25:12  <andythenorth> ^^ simple river and canal docks
21:25:16  <NGC3982> drac_boy: Yeah.
21:25:28  <NGC3982> It becomes really, really hard when you scale it up.
21:25:33  <NGC3982> But i guess that's a good thing.
21:25:35  <drac_boy> NGC3982 ECS's behaviour was  a bit better.. it wouldn't explictly need the ore
21:25:41  <NGC3982> It's a real serious co-op venture.
21:25:57  <drac_boy> so you could do 300 tonnes of coal but only 160 tonnes of ore .. and it never blocks out
21:26:18  <drac_boy> of course sometimes I hate the ever-varying stockpile cap a little bit but meh :p
21:26:20  <Rubidium> http://rbijker.net/openttd/qed.png <- I must update subversion I guess
21:26:37  <drac_boy> NGC3982 co-op has nothing to do with lack of ore supplies on the map in first place? :)
21:27:29  <NGC3982> drac_boy: Sure it does. It's not like you can make a map 100% compatible with all it's industries.
21:27:36  <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3179/river_dock.png
21:27:56  <drac_boy> NGC3982 yeah but at least you could not explictly set an absolute 1-to-1 input ratio either? :)
21:28:11  <andythenorth> ^^ not simple, looks stupid.  Costs  5,570; 1 tile tram station in this game costs 820.  Too much disparity
21:28:29  <drac_boy> NGC3982 which of that reminds me I still haven't figured out yet how to make an industry treat input #2 as a boost to input #1
21:28:31  <andythenorth> oh, that's with FISH 2 resetting canal costs as well
21:28:32  <drac_boy> oh well
21:28:35  <NGC3982> drac_boy: Not really. :p
21:29:36  <andythenorth> without the canal cost reset, that dock would cost 31,940
21:30:52  <drac_boy> anyway before I get distracted some more by NGC3982 I meant to ask .. I know theres version check and other things but was there anything that could let you load one blob of code for patch but a different blob for ottd?  or is two seperate grfs the best way to go yet
21:31:13  <andythenorth> he
21:31:20  <andythenorth> I can't build CHIPS stations for eye candy
21:31:23  <andythenorth> no trains available :P
21:31:33  <drac_boy> andythenorth you can
21:31:38  <andythenorth> no, I can't
21:31:43  <drac_boy> just toggle that 'build even if no trains present' option
21:31:47  <drac_boy> unless its oddly been removed
21:32:12  * drac_boy forgot the exact name tho
21:32:13  <andythenorth> doesn't do what you think it does
21:32:21  <andythenorth> or there's another one somewhere
21:32:51  <drac_boy> andythenorth no? I've never had a problem using it to build stations even if theres nothing in the buy list to purchase
21:33:06  <andythenorth> maybe there are two settings?
21:33:09  <drac_boy> perhaps
21:33:15  <drac_boy> tell you what, let me check
21:33:53  <andythenorth> perhaps canrail sets railtypes with availability dates
21:35:34  <drac_boy> 'Disable infrastructure building when no suitable vehicles are available..' under Interface
21:35:42  <andythenorth> yeah, tried it :)
21:35:50  <andythenorth> probly a railtype shenanigan
21:37:29  <drac_boy> oh well, have fun anyway :)
21:37:31  <Rubidium> drac_boy: is http://rbijker.net/openttd/dos_attack_r24463.png enough of a DOS appearance?
21:38:01  <andythenorth> frosch123: how about industry closing in proportion to number of vehicles, or industries served on map or such?
21:38:09  <andythenorth> I want secondary industry closing on
21:38:11  <drac_boy> heh Rubidium the graphics are too smooth for dos :p
21:38:21  <andythenorth> but with an 1870 start, I only have small trams available
21:38:33  <andythenorth> most of my map will be wasteland if I turn on closing :P
21:38:41  <Rubidium> drac_boy: that's not true, the original DOS transport tycoon deluxe has the same graphics and resolution
21:38:54  <drac_boy> I'm guessing thats the network-broken build of ottd tho right?
21:39:24  <Rubidium> yep
21:39:51  <Rubidium> it's about 99% gimmick (+-1%)
21:40:54  <drac_boy> heh well if they ever get the network stack working in some way I might be able to split my time with more ottd multiplaying fun :)
21:41:32  <Rubidium> I'm not sure whether such a computer would be capable enough
21:41:54  <drac_boy> Rubidium it could actually
21:41:55  <Rubidium> mostly because the newer the (video) hardware, the more likely it doesn't work
21:42:34  <Eddi|zuHause> old computers have network cards too ;)
21:42:38  <drac_boy> thats kinda like saying basic vga doesn't even work on a modern card anymore even although thats exactly what the bios uses to display itself with?
21:43:02  <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause yeah.. 8bit 10baseT network card anyone?
21:43:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i remember we tried networking in DOS and failed horribly
21:43:10  <Rubidium> drac_boy: very basic yes, the stuff in between... not really
21:43:30  <Rubidium> for example, most recent video cards don't have hardware accelerated 8 bits palette animation
21:44:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i once had CIV 1 crash on me horribly. but the palette animation still worked :)
21:45:07  <Rubidium> anyhow, if you're interested enough... feel free to add DOS network capabilities
21:45:49  <drac_boy> Rubidium I dunno..its not the kind of network stack I know about (nor windows' neither)
21:45:59  <Eddi|zuHause> we played MOO2 network multiplayer in dosbox
21:46:23  <NGC3982> MOO2?
21:46:33  <Eddi|zuHause> Master Of Orion 2
21:46:56  <NGC3982> Oh
21:46:58  <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause I wouldn't have any problem playing ottd/dos over network neither (the emulator has full serial and ethernet passthrough's) ... but as it is I can't see any point installing non-multiplayer ottd when I already have the patch.  to our own :P
21:47:16  <drac_boy> I think I've seen some artworks for orion
21:49:57  <Eddi|zuHause> too bad they screwed up MOO3
21:50:17  <Eddi|zuHause> that was one of my biggest disappointments in gaming history
21:51:18  <drac_boy> oh btw is there any explaination of the newobject thing anywhere?
21:51:32  * drac_boy only could find the grfspec things but thats not so helpful
21:51:56  <Eddi|zuHause> there's plenty of stuff in the forum
21:54:34  <Terkhen> good night
21:56:20  <Yexo> drac_boy: what kind of explanation are you looking for?
21:56:34  <andythenorth> lo Yexo
21:56:43  <Yexo> hi andy
21:57:40  *** Ryton [~Ryton-@94-226-98-24.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:01:49  <drac_boy> yexo mm just like more beyond just how to code it .. but I guess maybe I'll just leave it blank on the project table
22:02:10  <drac_boy> brb
22:03:20  <Yexo> drac_boy: Like how to use it? Just like any other NewGRF. What you can do with it? Use your imagination.
22:16:37  <NGC3982> isnt the 1.2.1 version of OpenTTD playable in OSX directly by download?
22:17:41  <NGC3982> Mac OS X 10.3.9-10.5 (universal build)
22:17:52  <NGC3982> Doesn't that come with a graphical set?
22:18:10  <glx> probably not
22:18:24  <andythenorth> bye
22:18:25  *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
22:18:46  <glx> but I think it should propose to download it on first start
22:19:04  <glx> (unless it's still not implemented in OSX version)
22:19:08  <Yexo> was that ever implemented for osx?
22:19:59  <frosch123> i am quite sure it is not
22:21:46  <__ln__> i have a question but nevermind, i cannot phrase it politely.
22:21:53  <drac_boy> guess that works then yexo
22:22:29  * drac_boy actually would be interested in a particular japan copy of TT just for a bit of giggles tbh
22:23:50  <Eddi|zuHause> what would be the point?
22:24:49  <drac_boy> playing some basic maps for short times and the other part being not needing to run it in emulator on the contrast
22:24:49  <frosch123> i assume switching ottd to japanese is not the point
22:25:07  <drac_boy> frosch123 mm no its not
22:25:18  <drac_boy> let me see if theres even any screenshot of it online one moment..
22:25:32  <frosch123> oh, is it that 3d version on some console?
22:25:56  <__ln__> what's the platform-specific part of the downloader thing?
22:25:58  <frosch123> i think i saw something like that
22:26:20  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: the gui to display it?
22:28:14  <frosch123> __ln__: remove the !defined(__APPLE__) part from bootstrap_gui
22:28:15  <frosch123> and try
22:28:20  <frosch123> compile and run
22:32:36  <__ln__> so freetype is the problem, or what? (i don't have my apple here right now, just reading the code)
22:35:19  <frosch123> quite possible that automatic font detection was never implemented for osx either
22:36:01  <__ln__> and anyway, what's the point of making everyone download the graphics, instead of shipping at least something with the application?
22:36:30  <drac_boy> hmm odd I'm sure I had recalled seeing some screenshots before but oh well frosch123 http://www.onlinegamesdatenbank.de/index.php?section=title&titleid=3274 check which one was released in 1996, thats the one :)
22:40:06  *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has quit [Quit: leaving]
22:40:56  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: traffic for updates
22:41:39  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: between 1.2.0 and 1.2.1, or 1.2.2rc1 and 1.2.2, probably nothing changed in OpenGFX, so no point in downloading it again
22:42:22  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: plus you are not forced to download anything if you already have the original graphics
22:42:48  <__ln__> what would Stallman say?
22:43:10  <Eddi|zuHause> how would i know? i never met the guy...
22:45:47  <__ln__> me neither
22:46:02  <__ln__> i have another question, though i think i'm going to regret it
22:47:01  <__ln__> does the downloader actually need a gui? can't it just download the stuff it needs silently?
22:49:23  *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER]
22:50:04  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it must ask the player to download something. it cannot do it silently (unless you introduce a parameter or something)
22:50:28  <__ln__> why must it ask?
22:50:49  <Eddi|zuHause> because!
22:51:00  <__ln__> think about the children!
22:51:06  <drac_boy> heh such a pointless debate
22:51:15  <V453000> Xd
22:52:07  * drac_boy wonders whats with V453000's idea of not talking for two hours then suddenly doing so
22:52:09  <drac_boy> :p
22:52:16  <__ln__> 90% of modern software downloads something without asking nor telling the user.
22:52:24  <TrueBrain> which we call spyware
22:52:26  <TrueBrain> or mallware
22:52:28  <TrueBrain> or trojans
22:52:30  <TrueBrain> or botnets
22:52:36  <TrueBrain> these are BAD software
22:52:42  <__ln__> or spotify
22:52:44  <__ln__> or firefox
22:52:49  <drac_boy> truebrain or the % of people that just blindly click 'next' without ever noticing the pre-checked checkbox for toolbar addons :)
22:53:11  <TrueBrain> drac_boy: ugh, I hate that software
22:53:18  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: all "sane" programs ask this during installation, whether "autoupdate" and similar should be enabled
22:53:30  <drac_boy> TrueBrain just uncheck the box .. problem solved .. but mm yeah go figure either way
22:53:42  <TrueBrain> drac_boy: requires reading ... which I dislike :P
22:53:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i never understood the point of "toolbars"
22:53:50  <drac_boy> TrueBrain then don't use a computer :)
22:53:59  <TrueBrain> drac_boy: sorry, I can't read you, you are breaking up
22:54:05  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: money
22:54:08  <drac_boy> TrueBrain nope, its you
22:54:23  <glx> silly you have to check the "I agree..." but ads stuff is prechecked
22:54:26  <V453000> isnt there missing the feature "download all" for one of the reasons to know exactly what you are downloading and read the damn list at least? :)
22:55:01  <TrueBrain> ugh, too many people hit select all and download it all
22:55:14  <TrueBrain> its like killing the server or something :P
22:55:25  <V453000> :)
22:55:30  <TrueBrain> I cannot blame people for doing so ... it is not like there is some kind of real rating to the files
22:55:34  <TrueBrain> so ... all sounds better than none
22:55:58  <Eddi|zuHause> did we ever agree on a rating method?
22:56:02  <TrueBrain> nope
22:56:04  <TrueBrain> many ideas
22:56:10  <TrueBrain> not something that seems practical
22:56:21  <TrueBrain> but, in all fairness, the current method is one of the worst of the posibilities :P
22:56:52  <Eddi|zuHause> it'd have to be something that can be done from within the game
22:56:56  <TrueBrain> I still think that presets, and rating of those, are the only realistic way
22:57:02  <drac_boy> don't forget something with some sort of control against mass rating
22:57:16  <TrueBrain> optimal, we would just snoop all clients to see what they run
22:57:21  <TrueBrain> and show what is most commonly used
22:57:28  <TrueBrain> but I so fucking hate snooping software
22:57:32  <TrueBrain> (and I am talking to you Minecraft)
22:57:35  <drac_boy> you'll have to pass that through the privacy acts actually truebrain
22:57:40  <TrueBrain> opt-in ffs, not opt-out :(
22:57:45  <TrueBrain> drac_boy: no, you don't
22:57:48  <TrueBrain> that is just bullshit, sorry :)
22:58:00  <drac_boy> TrueBrain good luck not getting charged then .. because it IS privacy
22:58:10  <TrueBrain> that is why so many software does it .....
22:58:37  <drac_boy> truebrain name me one software that actually checks your hd
22:58:45  <drac_boy> (excluding av)
22:58:46  <TrueBrain> your HD? wtf are you talking about now?
23:00:25  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: the main problem always remains, I guess, that one might like one set a lot, and the other another ... which rates better? What is fair? So hard to get something real for it ...
23:00:36  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: this origin thingie had that in its license "we may search your HDD for illegal copies of games"
23:01:06  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: google had that they could store screenshots of the pages you visited for optimizations :P
23:01:09  <TrueBrain> (chrome)
23:02:00  <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause well if its coded to only specifically look for its own app and not do a broad search ... and the user knew of it .. I wouldn't complain :)
23:02:12  <TrueBrain> you should complain
23:02:27  <TrueBrain> ifI can't do what ever the fuck I want on my own machine ......
23:02:40  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: no, it specifically was meant to look for ALL games
23:02:53  <Eddi|zuHause> or at least all EA games
23:02:55  <Eddi|zuHause> or something
23:03:18  <Eddi|zuHause> which is like 50% of all games ever created
23:03:39  <TrueBrain> anyway, drac_boy, you still didn't explain how you got to 'checks your hd' from snooping user uses?
23:04:25  <drac_boy> truebrain .. you already mentioned it .. 'client...what they run'
23:04:51  <frosch123> TrueBrain: we could have an official jury for rating :p
23:05:02  <TrueBrain> you might want to apply such comments to an OpenTTD env, not a computer ......
23:05:03  <drac_boy> frosch123 sounds a lot better
23:05:10  <TrueBrain> frosch123: same issue :D
23:05:32  <TrueBrain> drac_boy: ofc, what I meant, is to keep track the grfs people use, which is very much unrelated to what runs on a computer ......
23:05:38  <TrueBrain> we want to know how people use OpenTTD, not their computer
23:05:43  <frosch123> depends on who it consists of :p
23:05:59  <TrueBrain> we track servers, but ..... our multiplayer uses is rather low :P
23:06:06  <drac_boy> truebrain...doesn't matter... its still on hd so that falls under private useage
23:06:11  <TrueBrain> euh, sure
23:06:18  <TrueBrain> that is bullshit, but sure :)
23:06:30  <TrueBrain> under that idea, multiplayer games are impossible
23:06:34  <drac_boy> tell that to EU court .. and it wouldn't be their first case
23:07:07  <TrueBrain> so ... if you send an email with an attachment to your friend, that is a violation of your privacy?
23:07:13  <TrueBrain> after all, you never told that your browser is allowed to read your HD?
23:07:23  <drac_boy> nope..you intentionally wanted to give the attachment so its no-issue
23:08:16  <TrueBrain> so now we talk about intentionally or not .. okay, that is interesting
23:08:57  <TrueBrain> so, if you play Assassins Creed
23:08:59  <TrueBrain> 2
23:09:06  <TrueBrain> savegames are stored 'in the cloud'
23:09:10  <TrueBrain> that is a violation of your privacy?
23:09:19  <TrueBrain> I never wanted it to do that
23:09:23  <TrueBrain> I never got told it would do that
23:09:27  <drac_boy> only if the savegame had any personal info in it
23:09:36  <TrueBrain> so newgrfs have personal info in it?
23:09:42  <V453000> man my network is my personal info
23:09:51  <Eddi|zuHause> of course the savegame has personal info in it. i made it personally.
23:10:06  <TrueBrain> it tells a lot about you, a savegame
23:10:14  <drac_boy> V453000 btw whats the meaning of the number 453000 anyway?
23:10:32  <V453000> it is a rewriting of my name?
23:10:56  <V453000> Vasek is my non-formal name .. transcribe it into numbers and you got that shit
23:11:21  <V453000> im kind of surprised I havent seen it anywhere else yet
23:11:40  <glx> oh smart
23:12:30  <V453000> everybody calls me V instead anyway :)
23:12:42  <drac_boy> oh heh ok :)
23:14:03  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: btw, much worse than NewGRFs it is with AIs
23:14:11  <TrueBrain> but I guess we can just use a classic rating there?
23:14:26  <TrueBrain> maybe ingame ask after 10 years of playing: how do you like this AI?
23:14:37  <V453000> are the AIs just historical or does anyone actually use them?
23:15:01  <TrueBrain> euh .. how long haven't you played OpenTTD? :)
23:15:01  <V453000> TrueBrain: most people alt tab constantly so that message would have to be there for long :D
23:15:11  <drac_boy> V453000 I never could understand their stupidity so I always play with zero ai tbh
23:15:23  <V453000> few seconds ... but I never used AIs except a few tries
23:15:25  <TrueBrain> V453000: with NoAI, people use it
23:15:26  <frosch123> TrueBrain: for ais we can use a quite objective rating: let them run for 10 years, and check whether they crash
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23:15:30  <TrueBrain> we have no details on how much, ofc
23:15:32  <frosch123> that seems to filter half of them
23:15:41  <TrueBrain> frosch123: lolz
23:15:44  <V453000> mhm :)
23:15:47  <drac_boy> but once in a while I might not mind if a scenario has one or two ai companies preloaded .. because I know I'll drive them bankrupt in a while :p
23:15:49  <TrueBrain> you remind me of the tournament system I had :P
23:16:02  <drac_boy> although one of these default scenario is badly broken...
23:16:07  <glx> frosch123: add a save/load cycle too :)
23:16:12  <TrueBrain> would be a good way indeed, to just rate them tournament style :P
23:16:27  <drac_boy> british map .. and only a few months later the ai company wants to remove a network but it can't finish that due to stuck trains on one-way tracks
23:16:28  <frosch123> TrueBrain: except for the exceptions :p
23:16:32  <drac_boy> I forgot the name of that map tho
23:16:38  <frosch123> like those ais which are not meant to compete
23:16:45  <TrueBrain> frosch123: hmmmmmm
23:16:48  <TrueBrain> so .. human rating :P
23:16:51  <frosch123> because they only build roads for the player, or only build eyecandy roadvehicels
23:17:01  <TrueBrain> we have those AIs?
23:17:04  <TrueBrain> dammit, I don't like those :P
23:17:24  <frosch123> there is a pre-gs ai which connects all cities, and the goes to sleep
23:17:33  <TrueBrain> GS, yeah, I expected nothing less
23:17:38  <TrueBrain> I did my best to make it hard, but ... :P
23:17:55  <frosch123> and there are at least two ais, who build roadvehicles with zero running cost (provided by a special grf) just to make roads looks busy
23:18:04  <TrueBrain> haha
23:18:05  <TrueBrain> kewl
23:18:06  <frosch123> (no busses or trucks, but other cars)
23:18:11  <TrueBrain> that is nice :)
23:18:17  <TrueBrain> so ...... AI rating is hard too
23:18:20  <TrueBrain> owh happy days
23:18:20  <V453000> if you use AIs for bankrupting them then they should be able to talk and rage
23:18:37  <frosch123> TrueBrain: anyway, an exact rating does not matter
23:18:46  <TrueBrain> no, but some kind of scaling would be nice
23:18:59  <frosch123> it would just be nice if constantly crashing ais, or broken scenarios could be flagged somehow
23:19:00  <NGC3982> "Scheiße! Im going bancrupt!"
23:19:02  <NGC3982> ? ;)
23:19:03  <TrueBrain> now all AIs are <N users pressed Select All since upload>
23:19:12  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I agree
23:19:30  <TrueBrain> so ... when I manage to merge out the old VM, we can setup a test machine which does those tests
23:19:41  <TrueBrain> and mark AIs which crash
23:19:47  <TrueBrain> good start at least
23:19:49  <TrueBrain> same goes for GS
23:20:00  <frosch123> hmm... good point
23:20:15  <frosch123> i could hack ottd into something which checks scenarios for broken grf configs
23:20:32  <frosch123> i.e. check whether vehicles are available, and whether all cargos can be transported by something
23:20:49  <TrueBrain> haha, also a nice idea :)
23:22:45  <TrueBrain> doesnt really help with NewGRFs ofc
23:22:53  <TrueBrain> but at least it is nice to give some quality :P
23:23:46  <V453000> I still think that the best quality is TerraGenesis :) best scenario
23:24:02  <V453000> or hell even the original generator
23:24:03  <TrueBrain> I strongly disagree
23:24:05  <TrueBrain> let me tell you why
23:24:34  <TrueBrain> http://devs.openttd.org/~truebrain/mapgen/old/image018.png
23:24:45  <TrueBrain> http://devs.openttd.org/~truebrain/mapgen/old/image016.png
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23:25:15  <V453000> that is some sort of heightmap I guess
23:25:20  <TrueBrain> yup
23:25:26  <TrueBrain> my old old mapgen
23:25:41  <V453000> doesnt that make most of the map rather flat?
23:25:49  <TrueBrain> how do you mean?
23:26:10  <V453000> like when you put on Very Smooth with variety distribution
23:26:15  <V453000> opposed to rough without it
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23:26:24  <TrueBrain> The Netherlands and Germany are flat
23:26:28  <TrueBrain> not much you can do about that :P
23:26:36  <V453000> well yeah but that is boring to play
23:26:43  <V453000> flat maps are all the same
23:26:46  <TrueBrain> then pick another country :P
23:26:58  <TrueBrain> just point being, I love those maps :D
23:27:02  <TrueBrain> make good scenarios :P
23:27:15  <V453000> I think the best scenario is random map :)
23:27:32  <TrueBrain> http://devs.openttd.org/~truebrain/mapgen/mapgen_srtm_3_1200.png
23:27:34  <TrueBrain> I love the details
23:27:36  <TrueBrain> it is amasing
23:27:47  <TrueBrain> works poorly in OpenTTD
23:28:11  <V453000> it is nice to look at. :)
23:28:30  <TrueBrain> yeah; sadly a project that never can finish
23:28:44  <TrueBrain> there is no database with rivers and lakes that is "closed"
23:28:49  <TrueBrain> (lakes "leak" water :P)
23:29:04  <V453000> :D
23:29:18  <V453000> wait I thought that thing is generated
23:29:22  <TrueBrain> it is
23:29:43  <V453000> why database with rivers/.. then
23:29:49  <TrueBrain> ah, hmm
23:29:51  <TrueBrain> mapgen does:
23:29:59  <TrueBrain> SRTM 90m information for height
23:30:08  <TrueBrain> then .. how was the database called
23:30:14  <TrueBrain> is put over it for country lines etc
23:30:16  <TrueBrain> (like 016)
23:30:20  <V453000> ah right
23:30:22  <V453000> I see
23:30:23  <TrueBrain> but that doesn't give you rivers and lakes etc
23:30:25  <TrueBrain> just heights
23:30:32  <TrueBrain> ah, VMAP0 it is called btw
23:30:36  <TrueBrain> so VMAP0 also has lakes and rivers
23:30:40  <TrueBrain> which I render over it
23:30:43  <TrueBrain> but you need to fill them
23:30:46  <TrueBrain> as they only have borders
23:30:47  <V453000> uhm, so what do you actually generate when you have the original map? :D
23:30:51  <TrueBrain> and VMAP0 is of such poor quality ...
23:31:01  <TrueBrain> what do you mean?
23:31:17  <V453000> well you have the country lines, and height lines?
23:31:28  <V453000> doesnt matter :)
23:31:30  <TrueBrain> well, the height is a matrix
23:31:37  <TrueBrain> country is a closed curve
23:32:09  <TrueBrain> so with SRTM alone you can do a lot of cool stuff, but without rivers and lakes, it looks silly :P
23:32:12  <V453000> guess I will just go have a game with original generator :P
23:32:26  <TrueBrain> haha
23:32:37  <TrueBrain> use TGP ffs :P
23:32:52  <V453000> I use it mostly, but I love original generator too :)
23:33:00  <TrueBrain> I never did :P
23:33:08  <V453000> I figured :D
23:36:08  *** kais58 [~kais58@host-92-22-146-48.as13285.net] has joined #openttd
23:36:11  <TrueBrain> *bored*
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23:38:15  *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ
23:39:12  <TrueBrain> RAID-sync is not even 50% done ... it is been running for 24h :P
23:39:26  <TrueBrain> how do you mean, OpenTTD server is using lots of I/O on its own :D
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23:44:18  <Eddi|zuHause> ok, audiosurf gets boring very quickly if you have a song with a long quiet stretch :)
23:44:35  <TrueBrain> did you just really say that? :P
23:44:50  <V453000> :D
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23:45:32  <drac_boy> heh
23:45:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean it wasn't actually silent, just more quiet than the rest of the song. and there was nothing happening for like a minute
23:45:49  <TrueBrain> wrong song, I say
23:46:02  <V453000> a good song must be always loud.
23:46:22  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but you realize that only afterwards :p
23:46:40  <TrueBrain> leason learnt I say :P
23:46:42  <drac_boy> just wondering but how do you get hosted websites like eg at users.tt-forums.net/danmack/index.html
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23:47:41  <Eddi|zuHause> really challenging was a song that had slow and fast sequences... you just calmed down and the next fast sequence starts :)
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23:48:05  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: you have to sleep with orudge
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23:48:15  <V453000> I only played that game when I was completely drunk so I cant really tell much :)
23:48:20  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: lol, perfect timeout of orudge :D
23:48:24  <Eddi|zuHause> :)
23:48:27  <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause and why? :P
23:48:32  <TrueBrain> V453000: so you play it always?
23:48:32  <drac_boy> truebrain heh :)
23:48:34  <TrueBrain> such an easy joke
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23:48:36  <V453000> :D
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23:49:54  *** Markk [mark@metamfetam.in] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:49:54  *** Markk_ is now known as Markk
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23:56:26  <drac_boy> well Eddi|zuHause he's back :p
23:56:38  <Eddi|zuHause> what do i care?
23:56:51  <TrueBrain> you had to sleep with him, not he
23:56:53  <drac_boy> did you want to take the bed instead? :)
23:57:10  * drac_boy has my own anyway
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