Log for #openttd on 1st September 2012:
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00:08:02  <Eddi|zuHause> "samsung pays apple with 30 truckloads of 5¢ coins" ... i don't know, something in me screams "fake" at this headline
00:09:07  <glx> it's possible
00:10:36  <Nat_aS> no it's not
00:10:43  <Eddi|zuHause> it sounds unplausible. you don't just go to a bank and say "give me a ton of pennies", that means you must have built up a strategic reserve of coins over some time
00:10:46  <Nat_aS> it's fake and deunked
00:10:50  <glx> I remember an ISP transmitting infos about IPs using printed paper
00:11:06  <Nat_aS> Samsung does not have acess to a billion worth of Nickles
00:11:13  <Nat_aS> not would 30 trucks be enough
00:14:44  <Nat_aS> "according to the United States mint, the total volume of nickels produced in the year 2012 is 679.12 million nickels. At that rate, Samsung has just paid Apple roughly 29.5 years worth of Nickel coin production. "
00:14:55  <Nat_aS> not to menton that samsung dosn't have to pay untill the judge rules
00:14:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i once tried to pay at the dentists 10€ in coins. they sent me right out the door
00:15:10  <Nat_aS>
00:15:18  <Nat_aS> and yes, you can refuse currency
00:15:48  <Eddi|zuHause> well, there was a bank downstairs
00:16:16  <Nat_aS> you would need ~1,360 trucks to transport a billion in nickles
00:16:34  <Nat_aS> without violating California state laws
00:22:31  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a bit weird that he starts with volume. with anything solid metal, volume is practically irrelevant. weight is the limiting factor.
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05:59:50  <Supercheese> "Go to Halifax (Transfer and wait for any full load with auto-refit to Scrap Metal)"
05:59:53  <Supercheese> <3 autorefit
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06:50:08  <Elukka> what's the point of the intercity coaches in 2cc?
06:50:25  <Elukka> all coaches have the same speed limit, intercity coaches just have higher running costs and carry less passengers
07:02:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i have never really played with 2cc
07:03:30  <Eddi|zuHause> i think the point was "design speed". i.e. if you put a fast engine on low speed carriages, then you have very high running costs
07:17:17  <Terkhen> good morning
07:18:52  <planetmaker> moin
07:19:24  <planetmaker> Elukka: maybe they got slower/faster loading and worse/better payment
07:20:02  <planetmaker> Elukka: obviously the readme of that set is a bit lacking ;-)
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07:36:18  <Alberth> woop woop
07:37:22  <planetmaker> moin Alberth
07:44:31  <Terkhen> hi Alberth
07:44:35  * planetmaker is crazy... checking out whole of svn :D
07:45:03  <planetmaker> I wonder why the connection is constantly reset, though...
07:45:08  <Alberth> at  :)
07:45:32  <planetmaker> :D nah. there's a project I'm more interested in ;-)
07:45:49  <Alberth> server doesn't like big check-outs probably
07:46:05  <planetmaker> the many tags take time
07:47:01  <Terkhen> planetmaker: still on windows? :P
07:47:21  <planetmaker> nope
07:47:35  <planetmaker> the debian now runs. Except sound :D
07:47:38  <Terkhen> :)
07:47:47  <Terkhen> my theory for the resets is invalid then
07:48:27  <planetmaker> Terkhen: the openttd session yesterday... I played that on the new debian already ;-)
07:48:47  <Terkhen> nice :P
07:48:50  <Terkhen> it was quite fun
07:48:54  <planetmaker> seems today it forgot about the x-settings somewhat. but that's fixed now, too
07:49:01  <planetmaker> yes, the session was big fun :-)
07:50:01  <planetmaker> Alberth, I get a "svn: Compression of svndiff data failed
07:50:01  <planetmaker> " every few tags
07:51:21  <Alberth> no nice svn co flag to disable compression?
07:51:47  <planetmaker> I didn't check :-)
07:52:04  <planetmaker> But copying the zillions of tags I wonder whether we shouldn't move to a dvcs :-)
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07:55:42  <Terkhen> hi Zuu
07:55:50  <Zuu> Hello Terkhen
07:55:55  <Alberth> hi
07:57:10  <planetmaker> hi Zuu
07:57:33  <Alberth> planetmaker: ideas about an nml cpp? or perhaps, what's missing in the current cpp ?
08:00:10  <Eddi|zuHause> code templates, instead of just graphics templates
08:00:42  <Alberth> multi-line #define   ?
08:00:58  <planetmaker> most important is #include
08:00:59  <Eddi|zuHause> something like that... :)
08:01:18  <Alberth> ie #macro(parms)  <bunch of lines> #endmacro     or so
08:01:32  <planetmaker> and such macros ^ will be very helpful, yes
08:01:43  <Eddi|zuHause> avoid the syntactical ambiguities of cpp
08:02:01  <planetmaker> it would be nice to have the option to join the parameter with a string in a macro similar to the cpp parameters
08:02:22  <planetmaker> but at the same time... that's sometimes a bit awkward
08:02:31  <Alberth> like ## you mean?
08:02:40  <planetmaker> yes
08:02:43  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: what ambiguities?
08:03:22  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: all the hacky stuff that andythenorth so "likes" with the concatenation operator (##)
08:03:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. when the operand is itself a macro
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08:04:03  <Alberth> hi frosch123
08:04:08  <planetmaker> Alberth, the two important things is: include a file. And make a code template which can e.g. be re-used by many vehicles / industries. The latter needs vehicle-specific switch-names.
08:04:08  <Terkhen> hi frosch123
08:04:11  <planetmaker> moin frosch123
08:04:25  <frosch123> morning everyone :)
08:04:33  <frosch123> didn't know this was so active so early :p
08:04:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm getting ready to go away for the weekend
08:04:53  <Terkhen> :)
08:04:57  <Alberth> planetmaker: the question seems to be how to introduce those names, I think
08:05:11  <Alberth> frosch123: we just fake being active :)
08:05:26  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker, Alberth: imho that should be solved by local scopes
08:05:51  <Alberth> I'd agree, but that's two problems instead of one :(
08:07:10  <Alberth> to me, it seems throwing cpp out is the first step that should be done
08:07:28  <Alberth> once you have that, you can think properly about local vars etc
08:07:50  <Eddi|zuHause> does anybody use conditional compilation? (#if...)
08:08:07  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, that, imho, would be an additional feature
08:08:32  <planetmaker> Not sure it's needed. Unless you really want to create special newgrfs for special platforms
08:08:47  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: unless cets or andy does it, unlikely
08:08:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i have a few instances in CETS
08:09:03  <frosch123> e.g. defining a macro, and then including a file, which depends on the macros to do different things
08:09:10  <frosch123> then undeffing them before next run
08:09:17  <planetmaker> I once toyed with it. But I don't have a real use case at hand
08:09:19  <Eddi|zuHause> but in theory i could move those to the generator, so there are always other solutions
08:09:19  <Alberth> #if could be relatively easy, by using the nml expression evaluation
08:09:54  <Eddi|zuHause> but i gtg now
08:10:02  <Alberth> ok, thanks for the input
08:12:27  <frosch123> question is if you want to prevent users from using cpp in general, or whether you want template-style stuff only as add-on, while still allowing cpp for arbitrary stuff
08:12:47  <planetmaker> frosch123, you cannot forbid the use of cpp
08:13:02  <frosch123> cpp is also used for version defines, and general build frame work -> code insertions
08:13:14  <planetmaker> but if the usual use-case of cpp is covered by nml itself, you can throw away a lot of cruft in the build scripts :-)
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08:13:26  <planetmaker> and make using it especially on windows much easier
08:13:35  <frosch123> planetmaker: well, i doubt nml would do the readme.ptxt stuff :p
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08:13:52  <Eddi|zuHause> like planetmaker said, "#include" is the most important for the average useer
08:13:53  <frosch123> hmm... unless nml writes tars and includes those doc files
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08:14:23  <planetmaker> frosch123, I could insert the version also without resorting to cpp, I think. Like if NML accepts defines at command line time :-)
08:14:58  <frosch123> wasn't there already something like custom_tags ?
08:14:59  <planetmaker> after all... I cannot do without a makefile. Which could write the grf block for instance with the proper version. But without cpp
08:15:08  <planetmaker> there is. Indeed. that can be used
08:15:22  <planetmaker> though... might only be for strings. Not the version in the grf block
08:15:54  <frosch123> so custom tags would need extending for constant values in the code
08:16:49  <planetmaker> frosch123, generally it will be nice to maybe have an alias definition. But that could be covered by a general #define
08:16:58  <planetmaker> which would do e.g. for the grf version
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09:14:17  <Wolf01> hello
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09:16:03  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
09:17:02  <Alberth> moin
09:18:09  <planetmaker> hi Wolf01
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09:38:14  <Trainfucker> Hello I have a problem with OpenTTD
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09:39:31  <__ln__> come back when you have learned to choose an appropriate nick
09:43:05  <planetmaker> __ln__, is totally right :-)
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09:52:41  <Wolf01> now... I'll try how playable is OpenTTD on my brand new eee Slate
09:54:25  <Wolf01> copy data from transport tycoon deluxe cd-rom... but, I can't :(
09:54:34  <Terkhen> use opengfx then :P
09:54:46  <Trainfucker> My nick is fine
09:54:54  <Trainfucker> If you tell me to change my nick then you are jelaous
09:55:08  <Trainfucker> But if you don't want to know anything about a game-breaking bug then it's your own problem then
09:55:14  <V453000> LOL
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09:55:29  <Wolf01> ah, game breaking bug
09:55:40  <Wolf01> kids
09:55:47  <V453000> I assume the bug was that he cant build signals on a bridge
09:56:48  <Wolf01> ehm, I don't have the right mouse button :(
09:57:20  <Terkhen> that was my biggest problem when I tried the android port :P
09:59:56  <V453000> lol
10:00:02  <Wolf01> we should implement the "long click menu", like in windows CE
10:00:23  <frosch123> what do you need the rmb for?
10:00:29  <frosch123> we have left-click scrolling
10:00:32  <Alberth> as in 'hoover delay' ? :)
10:00:55  <frosch123> there is exactly one feature in the game, which need the rmb
10:01:03  <frosch123> and that is the consist info the depot gui
10:01:23  <frosch123> and then you also need a ctrl key to make really use of it :p
10:01:24  <Wolf01> but I don't have ctrl too
10:01:30  <frosch123> well, thaT
10:01:33  * Terkhen was not able to change the advanced settings in android because the window did not fit the screen
10:01:35  <frosch123> 's a problem then :)
10:02:41  <Wolf01> ok, the game is well playable, the only problem is the ctrl (after switching to left mb scrolling)
10:03:38  <Terkhen> is there anything that could be used to simulate it? I have never used a tablet
10:05:04  * Hirundo didn't know about the use of the rmb in the depot window
10:05:36  <frosch123> it's one of the best hidden features :)
10:05:42  <frosch123> also the only case of ctrl+rmb ever :)
10:06:01  <planetmaker> lol... installing debian's "testing" version of "the best" photo software for linux... it now downloads 1GByte of stuff
10:06:17  <Terkhen> I only know about it because frosch mentioned it while we were discussing the hover tooltips feature
10:06:29  <Hirundo> is it (best hidden)-features or best-(hidden features) ?
10:06:35  <frosch123> planetmaker: sounds like it included the best phohos ever, and just replaces you photo with one from the gallery
10:06:50  <Hirundo> Or both :P ?
10:06:52  <Terkhen> planetmaker: it is probably downloading newer versions of all dependencies :P
10:06:55  <Terkhen> Hirundo: both, I guess
10:06:59  <planetmaker> :-) There are no photos on this machine yet :-P
10:07:05  <planetmaker> Terkhen, exactly that
10:07:12  <planetmaker> which is like whole of kde and stuff
10:07:25  <planetmaker> obviously also gcc... :D
10:07:35  <Terkhen> oh, downloading stuff from another DE, that's fun
10:08:07  <planetmaker> like the available version in stable is like offering openttd 0.7 now
10:08:20  <planetmaker> which just doesn't cut it
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10:09:03  <Wolf01> <Terkhen> is there anything that could be used to simulate it? I have never used a tablet <- the only thing I can think about is an hardware button :P
10:09:07  <Terkhen> debian is meant to be safe and stable... for many apps that's fine, but for games it is not
10:09:45  <Wolf01> at least on my smartphone when I need to use the rmb on the scummvm I use one of the volume buttons
10:10:08  <Wolf01> the other one toggles the "hovering"
10:10:51  <Terkhen> openttd could show a small button at one of the bottom corners which simulates holding Ctrl, but I don't know if most touchscreens allow you to touch at two places at once
10:11:02  <Terkhen> it's the only solution I can come up with, and it sounds hacky
10:11:39  <__ln__> it would need to be a togglable button
10:11:44  <planetmaker> ^
10:12:13  <planetmaker> hm, seems I just update my whole system to testing. oh well
10:12:14  <Hirundo> IMO all ctrl-features should be achievable by different means, though I don't know how feasible that is
10:12:15  <__ln__> but even then i bet it would be tedious to use ottd on a touchscreen
10:12:21  <frosch123> well, considering how often it was suggested to switch ctrl and non-ctrl behaviour, we might generally add a ctrl-lock button :p
10:12:49  <planetmaker> a general mode switch button in the main toolbar?
10:13:10  <Terkhen> of course, it would be yet another advanced setting, the button should not appear if you are not using a touchscreen
10:13:11  <planetmaker> which has the lock functionality like the visibility toolbar?
10:13:21  <planetmaker> and switches automatically when using ctrl (unless locked)?
10:13:22  <Wolf01> I think this way is the most practical: radial context menu on 3 second click
10:14:29  <frosch123> Terkhen: i thought about also offering for non touch-screens :p
10:14:35  <frosch123> just for ctrl-lock :p
10:14:46  <frosch123> resp. ctrl-invert
10:14:48  <Terkhen> that could be fine, as long as it does not appear by default
10:14:54  <Wolf01> and if I want to play with a joypad?
10:15:26  <Terkhen> good luck?
10:15:28  <Terkhen> :P
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11:09:29  <SCHNELLKOCHTOPF> Morning.
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11:53:54  <andythenorth> bonsoir
11:55:02  <Terkhen> hi andythenorth
11:57:45  <Squire> Morning. I overslept again. There has to be something wrong with me. I went to bed at 22:00, awake at 12:30, what the crap?
11:58:48  <Zuu> Squire: Write a python script that start a music file at a given time and remember to not turn of the computer or lound speakers. :-)
11:59:35  <Squire> hehe, I could do that. I actually had a vB alarm clock I made at college. Lost it in a HDD crash years back
12:00:27  <Zuu> Most todays cell phones get the sound muffed if you accidently put them on a carpet or a book or anything else that absorbs the sound.
12:00:54  <Squire> and I had the weirdest dream that I was being chased around a lake by Sean Connery. I am beginning to think that my wife might have drugged me
12:03:32  <NGC3982> Bah.
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12:04:49  <planetmaker> she has. it's called hormones, Squire
12:05:15  <NGC3982> A OpenTTD classic: Using the viewport to plant large distances of rail. Using the terraform tool to fix a "minor mountain" resulting in spending 650 billion USD on accidently terraforming the whole map.
12:05:32  <frosch123> planetmaker: are you sure that would spawn sean connery?
12:06:07  <planetmaker> frosch123: I'm only sure it would not work for me. But who knows how it works for others :-)
12:06:26  * NGC3982 takes this as a sign for breakfest
12:06:49  <planetmaker> NGC3982: I'm really not sure how that can happen
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12:10:33  <Fremen> :o
12:10:53  <Squire> I blame pheromones (pheramones?)
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12:25:33  <NGC3982> planetmaker:
12:25:49  <NGC3982> Accidently moving the pointer to the viewport while terraforming locally.
12:26:12  <glx> it's a feature :)
12:26:22  <NGC3982> Yes, of course.
12:26:35  <glx> just press shift before releasing the button
12:27:57  <NGC3982> It's not like i know how to do it properly. That's why i Bah:d.
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14:58:40  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r24503 /trunk/src/road_cmd.cpp: -Change [FS#5228]: When building long roads or tramways, only build the roadbits at the beginning and the end if they can connect to something.
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16:07:34  <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: what's the status on CETS? still need wagons?
16:07:42  <Elukka> can't guarantee that i'd get anything done though...
16:08:03  <Elukka> and is it now 32bpp? i looked at it a while back and kinda noticed oberhÃŒmer's colors don't match up with the ones in my old sprites now at all
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17:19:39  <Guilux> hi
17:20:56  <Zuu> hello Guilux
17:26:52  <Muxy> Guilux: sounds like some schmilblik
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17:45:11  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24504 /trunk/src/lang/russian.txt:
17:45:11  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:11  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
17:49:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: zuu * r24505 /trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp: -Add: Select the GS tab if all AI tabs are unselectable in the AI debug window.
17:51:04  <andythenorth> anyone played a big FIRS game recently?
17:51:14  <andythenorth> trying to figure out if anyone *ever* uses Fertiliser Plant
17:51:20  * andythenorth suspects not
17:54:42  <frosch123> what does it produce?
17:55:03  <andythenorth> FMSP
17:55:05  <andythenorth> from chemicals
17:55:40  <andythenorth> it's a 3rd-step processing industry
17:55:52  <Zuu> If you remove it you will notice if anyone was using it before. :-)
17:55:57  <andythenorth> I am thinking of either removing it, or doing an evil inspired by Pikka
17:56:45  <frosch123> so, we need a nocargoal game with fmsp
17:56:58  <frosch123> then someone will use it
17:58:08  <andythenorth> thinking...8t chemicals delivered = 16t output....fertiliser is fixed from atmospheric nitrogen
17:58:11  <andythenorth> pikka's idea ;P
17:58:37  <andythenorth> also I have a nice idea for supplies mechanic, but can't figure out how I would explain it in game
18:00:19  <andythenorth> currently, production increase is a random chance at the end of every month, if at least 1t supplies delivered that month
18:00:35  <andythenorth> and if successful, production multiplier is incremented by 1
18:00:48  <andythenorth> and never falls, unless you have a silly parameter choice
18:01:00  <andythenorth> which is a nice idea, but slow
18:01:02  <frosch123> well, we still failed with milk :)
18:01:22  <frosch123> and if it is too fast, you cannot play longer than for 10 years
18:01:26  <andythenorth> also the range is silly, farms start with ~50t and go to 300t or so
18:01:46  <andythenorth> I want to simplify the whole thing
18:02:05  <andythenorth> deliver 30t, get a 2x production increase that lasts 3 months
18:02:16  <andythenorth> deliver 120t get a 4x production increase that lasts 3 months
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18:02:44  <andythenorth> at the end of the 3 month period, production reverts to 100% unless more supplies delivered
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18:02:49  <andythenorth> farmers are more gung ho :)
18:03:21  <andythenorth> might suck in testing, but it's my favourite of the many supplies ideas so far
18:03:37  <andythenorth> I think it's way more suitable for NoCarGoal type GS play
18:05:02  <andythenorth> just need time to code it for testing :P
18:05:14  <andythenorth> unless anyone else wants to patch FIRS o_O
18:05:46  <frosch123> yeah, non permanant production changes might also work
18:06:44  <andythenorth> one of the (many) defects of the current system is that after a few years of FMSP production, there is a huge excess of them on the map
18:07:02  <andythenorth> if I play ~70 years, I end up with 1000's of tonnes of FMSP unused, waiting at stations
18:07:11  <andythenorth> anyway /me -> food :)
18:07:14  <andythenorth> bbl
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19:36:18  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24506 /trunk/src/newgrf_station.cpp: -Fix: Airport variables 60 to 65 an 69 used the wrong CTT for translations. (Alberth)
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19:43:44  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24507 /trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#5285]: The mousewheel did not work in the build waypoint window. (sbr)
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19:54:25  <frosch123> night
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21:27:30  <Terkhen> good night
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21:42:29  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:03:33  <NGC3982> What NewGRF does the "Multiple Unit Wagon" belong to?
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23:58:13  <Fremen> NGC3982 2cc ?
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