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00:10:18 *** Elukka [Elukka@a91-152-213-89.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 00:13:53 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-78-45-94-114.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:19:10 *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 15.0.1/20120905151427]] 00:40:49 *** M1zera [~Miranda@ip-89-176-31-70.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:41:58 *** bryjen [~bryjen@75.81.247.49] has joined #openttd 00:51:50 *** TorA [~TorA@c-50-134-182-155.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 00:52:13 <TorA> Anyone here know why I have no Livestock car in the NARS when it's 1937? 00:52:21 <TorA> Better yet, anyone know a way to fix that :\ 00:57:10 *** TorA [~TorA@c-50-134-182-155.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has left #openttd [] 01:05:41 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #openttd 01:09:38 *** KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-53-243.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: 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has joined #openttd 07:10:19 *** telanus1 [~telanus@196-215-90-156.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #openttd 07:14:10 *** telanus [~telanus@196-215-90-156.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:14:56 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 07:15:50 *** Jake [~chatzilla@host81-156-48-130.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:18:59 *** roadt [~roadt@60.168.82.93] has joined #openttd 07:21:14 <Terkhen> good morning 07:25:54 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.173.4] has joined #openttd 07:29:36 <KnogleAFK> morning 07:29:43 *** KnogleAFK is now known as Knogle 07:34:09 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@wirenat2.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:34:22 <NGC3982> What's NARS? 07:34:45 <NGC3982> Oh, six hours late. 07:38:28 <Terkhen> north american rail set IIRC, a trains NewGRF 07:39:13 <NGC3982> Ah, i see. 07:41:45 *** Wold [~Wold@93-152-170-93.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:45:41 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.173.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:48:42 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.70.232] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:48:56 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.70.232] has joined #openttd 07:49:45 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 07:49:49 <andythenorth> blah blah blah 07:55:59 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 08:22:25 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 08:23:45 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:27:15 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@wirenat2.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has joined #openttd 09:01:49 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-78-45-94-114.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 09:10:33 *** roadt [~roadt@60.168.82.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:30:23 *** telanus1 [~telanus@196-215-90-156.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:42:24 *** BadBrett [~Bad_Brett@90-227-32-82-no42.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:42:57 *** BadBrett [~Bad_Brett@90-227-32-82-no42.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #openttd 09:55:18 *** Wakou [~stephen@host31-51-63-30.range31-51.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 10:02:19 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] 10:22:05 *** roadt [~roadt@60.168.82.93] has joined #openttd 10:28:38 *** dada_ [~dada_@62.140.132.36] has joined #openttd 10:34:45 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-112-81.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 10:36:11 *** dada_ [~dada_@62.140.132.36] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:36:24 *** dada_ [~dada_@62.140.132.36] has joined #openttd 10:44:29 *** dada_ [~dada_@62.140.132.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:54:27 *** Knogle [knogle@1604ds5-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:55:01 *** Knogle [knogle@1604ds5-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd 10:56:32 *** BadBrett [~Bad_Brett@90-227-32-82-no42.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:56:49 *** BadBrett [~Bad_Brett@90-227-32-82-no42.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #openttd 11:01:00 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@wirenat2.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:04:54 *** BadBrett [~Bad_Brett@90-227-32-82-no42.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:06:21 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@wirenat-ulcn.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has joined #openttd 11:10:47 <NGC3982> Is there any NewGRF with giant train wagons? 11:12:01 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@wirenat-ulcn.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:12:22 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@wirenat-ulcn.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has joined #openttd 11:13:23 <planetmaker> yes. cets 11:13:29 <planetmaker> search the devzone 11:13:44 <planetmaker> I still got the feeling "giant" is a rubber term and I understand it MUCH differently from you 11:13:55 *** dada_ [~dada_@dhcp-077-250-097-191.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 11:16:37 <NGC3982> Oh, i see. 11:17:06 <NGC3982> Well, i was talking about capacity 11:17:18 <NGC3982> But didn't mention it, for some reason. 11:17:20 <NGC3982> :> 11:20:28 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@wirenat-ulcn.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:23:16 *** Wakou [~stephen@host31-51-63-30.range31-51.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:33:03 *** tparker [~tparker@2600:3c03::1d:4242] has quit [Quit: brb] 11:38:59 *** tparker [~tparker@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:feae:42ad] has joined #openttd 11:44:15 *** Elukka [Elukka@a91-152-213-89.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 11:49:34 *** argoneus [~argoneus@smtp.gvp.cz] has joined #openttd 12:03:12 *** Yexo- is now known as Yexo 12:05:43 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@wirenat2.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has joined #openttd 12:15:07 *** argoneus [~argoneus@smtp.gvp.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:24:31 <Eddi|zuHause> well CETS has double-decker S-Bahn wagons :) 12:33:36 <NGC3982> Ooh 12:35:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the long-distance wagons have around the same capacity (per tile, not per wagon) as the original wagons, the local wagons have around 50% more, and the s-bahn wagons have around double capacity, the double decker wagons have additional capacity. 12:52:03 *** dada_ [~dada_@dhcp-077-250-097-191.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: goodbyte] 12:52:54 <Elukka> oberhÃŒmer hasn't drawn quite that far yet, has he? :P 12:53:22 *** dada78641 [~dada_@dhcp-077-250-097-191.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 13:01:38 *** dada78641 is now known as dada_ 13:02:06 *** valhalla1w [~valhallas@wirenat2.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has joined #openttd 13:03:53 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@wirenat2.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:05:06 <NGC3982> Elukka: Sounds nice. 13:05:08 <NGC3982> Ill try it. 13:09:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: not really 13:36:59 *** valhalla1w [~valhallas@wirenat2.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:58:18 *** dada__ [~dada_@dhcp-077-250-097-191.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 13:59:08 *** dada__ [~dada_@dhcp-077-250-097-191.chello.nl] has quit [] 14:04:21 *** dada__ [~dada_@dhcp-077-250-097-191.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 14:04:32 *** dada_ [~dada_@dhcp-077-250-097-191.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:04:44 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd 14:09:36 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 14:11:18 *** Zuu_ [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 14:18:25 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:25:32 *** doki_pen_ [~doki_pen@doki-pen.org] has joined #openttd 14:25:50 <doki_pen_> is there a good place to learn openttd scripting for a programmer? 14:29:16 <planetmaker> here, tt-forums, dev.openttdcoop.org and of course the API documentation at noai.openttd.org and nogo.openttd.org 14:29:56 <planetmaker> and there's an admin port; it's somewhat documented in the docs shipped with openttd. there's a java library and a python library for it around 14:30:29 *** M1zera [~Miranda@ip-89-176-31-70.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 14:30:41 <planetmaker> not exactly sure what you need / want, doki_pen_ 14:41:38 *** argoneus [~argoneus@ip-78-102-118-47.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 14:46:29 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.173.4] has joined #openttd 14:59:10 *** roadt [~roadt@60.168.82.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:01:26 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d173-183-158-32.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 15:21:49 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has joined #openttd 15:23:12 <__ln__> http://mathematica.stackexchange.com/questions/11350/xkcd-style-graphs 15:24:30 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host81-155-169-162.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 15:25:10 *** roadt [~roadt@60.168.82.93] has joined #openttd 15:27:54 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 15:29:09 <andythenorth> michi_cc: PEBKAC is a nice acronym :) 15:34:19 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@94.13.8.182] has joined #openttd 15:35:10 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f4463.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 15:48:50 *** APTX [APTX@2001:470:1f0b:1a9d:240:63ff:fefb:5994] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 15:48:52 *** APTX [APTX@2001:470:1f0b:1a9d:240:63ff:fefb:5994] has joined #openttd 16:07:14 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 16:12:34 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-050-193.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 16:47:02 *** keoz [~keikoz@159.90.76.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 16:57:54 *** George is now known as Guest217 16:57:58 *** George [~George@83.136.241.246] has joined #openttd 17:03:10 *** Guest217 [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:06:29 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 17:06:32 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 17:09:39 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:cde0:6be6:424c:8811] has joined #openttd 17:09:42 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 17:15:11 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:15:40 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has joined #openttd 17:18:06 <doki_pen_> planetmaker: thanks 17:18:09 *** George is now known as Guest223 17:18:13 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 17:18:15 <doki_pen_> got distracted by work 17:18:42 <doki_pen_> i just want to mainly see what's possible. Is it possible to script monotonous tasks? 17:19:00 <doki_pen_> for instance, upgrading from electric rail to monorail is a PITA 17:20:19 <doki_pen_> here is what I do now: depot all trains. upgrade everything I can. go through every depot that didn't get upgraded and create a monorail version of the train, copying the old trains schedule(with ctrl-click). Sell old trains. 17:20:25 <doki_pen_> don't know if there is an easier way 17:20:34 <doki_pen_> and finally, convert all remaining depots 17:21:20 <M1zera> hmm... I usualy see about 3-4 episodes of The Simpsons before I upgrade all trains 17:21:45 <doki_pen_> haha, is that the trick? 17:22:19 <Prof_Frink> doki_pen_: Yep, that's about standard. 17:22:31 <M1zera> :-) 17:22:38 <Prof_Frink> But I generally don't bother with monorail, and wait for maglev. 17:23:12 <Prof_Frink> (I do tend to build a transmap standalone monorail line, just because I can) 17:23:13 <doki_pen_> i just started playing a couple of weeks ago, I haven't played one long enough to get maglev yet 17:23:22 <M1zera> I build monorail only as new tracks outside of my network. 17:23:52 <doki_pen_> but my current one will probably last that long 17:24:14 *** Guest223 [~George@83.136.241.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:24:35 <doki_pen_> how come when I try to find a server, most of them are incompatible? 17:24:56 <doki_pen_> do i have to install some plugins manually? 17:29:41 <M1zera> "Downloadable GRFs" in menu 17:30:19 <M1zera> "Check online content" 17:30:21 <M1zera> my bad 17:31:16 <M1zera> I prefer playing solo, I usualy play one map for weeks... play for 15min, pause for hours to days unpause... :) 17:32:43 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:33:26 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 17:37:22 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 17:38:14 <Alberth> building new tracks or manually rebuilding lines with the new track type is much more fun imho; also you often rethink the layout, and improve the network as well. 17:42:09 <planetmaker> doki_pen_, scripts are not intended as helpers for the player; thus their capabilities are also not designed for that 17:42:27 <planetmaker> scripts are either separate players or global game scripts 17:43:01 <planetmaker> upgrading to monorail is easy: depot all trains. mass-convert the whole map. build new depots; build new trains with shared orders with the old. about 10 minutes time 17:45:15 *** Progman [~progman@87.161.171.180] has joined #openttd 17:49:37 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db0f318.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 17:49:47 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:53:19 <dada__> "One of the great things about GOG is that many games run in DOS. Mac users can run these games using the Macintosh version of Dosbox or by using Boxer, another DOS emulator." 17:53:25 <dada__> oops, wrong channel 18:01:57 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host11-216-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 18:02:06 <Wolf01> evenink 18:02:13 <Alberth> hi Wolf01, andythenorth 18:05:10 <peter1138> GOG: Games you can download from "abandonware" sites instead 18:06:43 <__ln__> if you don't care about breaking the law. 18:11:52 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-26-128.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 18:47:44 <andythenorth> hmm 18:47:49 <andythenorth> my autorefit poll is not going well 18:47:57 <andythenorth> I was hoping for policy-based evidence making 18:48:27 <FLHerne> andythenorth: The evidence doesn't suit your policy :P 18:48:35 * FLHerne voted 'essential' :D 18:48:47 *** Hyronymus [~Thunderbi@62.140.132.51] has joined #openttd 18:49:01 <andythenorth> I need different evidence 18:49:15 * andythenorth considers a different poll 18:49:26 <Alberth> andythenorth: you can prove anything with statistics :p 18:49:48 <andythenorth> "a tiny minority of respondents consider autorefit 'essential'" 18:50:26 <andythenorth> or a new poll, just two answers... "autorefit: [ ] not needed [ ] I suck and am a bad person" 18:51:00 <planetmaker> [x] I suck and am a bad person ;-) 18:51:49 <planetmaker> (going to trigger the nuke in fallout3's megaton ;-) ) 18:52:00 <Alberth> [x] never used autorefit 18:52:25 <FLHerne> [x] Rely on it for almost everything, network would fall apart without it :P 18:52:37 <M1zera> hm, i have played F3 many times and i have never blown Megaton up... Im just the good guy... 18:53:32 <FLHerne> However, I also rely on template-replace, which is unstable, non-MP-safe, abandoned and has no chance of getting in trunk soon :-( 18:53:54 <andythenorth> FLHerne: you can't possibly rely on it for almost everything 18:54:00 <andythenorth> most newgrfs don't offer it 18:54:04 <andythenorth> nor the default vehicles 18:54:24 <FLHerne> andythenorth: The ones I use most do now :P 18:54:27 <andythenorth> unless you have a *very* specific play style :P 18:54:41 <Alberth> andythenorth: what makes you think you need most newgrfs ? 18:54:54 <andythenorth> point 18:55:48 <FLHerne> UKRS2 and FISH2ish do, and those cover 80+% of my cargo movement :-) 18:55:59 * FLHerne waits for autorefitting HEQS :P 18:56:10 <FLHerne> Then I can get 90+% :D 18:56:42 <andythenorth> impossible 18:56:52 <andythenorth> [HEQS with autorefitting] 18:57:54 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Other than the trams? 18:57:57 <andythenorth> actually not impossible 18:58:00 <andythenorth> but not acceptable 18:58:10 <andythenorth> not acceptable ~= impossible 18:59:29 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Besides the trams, what's different from any other RV set for that? 19:01:05 <andythenorth> the mining trucks would be entirely, 100% fine 19:01:18 <andythenorth> and the foundry transporters 19:01:19 *** Hyronymus [~Thunderbi@62.140.132.51] has quit [Quit: Hyronymus] 19:01:19 *** roadt [~roadt@60.168.82.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:01:42 *** roadt [~roadt@60.168.82.93] has joined #openttd 19:02:01 <FLHerne> What would a foundry transporter autorefit to anyway? :P 19:02:25 <FLHerne> Just separate the tram models and have done with it :D 19:02:32 <FLHerne> Oh, and the crawlers :P 19:03:56 <andythenorth> I'm not against having the trams in a separate grf 19:03:59 <andythenorth> that's plausible 19:04:11 <andythenorth> it's a bit of hassle, more repos, more readmes, more banananaas admin 19:05:20 <FLHerne> What's wrong with as now? 19:05:32 <FLHerne> You have a param anyway... 19:06:05 <planetmaker> I don't think there's need to split HEQS... it's not too big really 19:06:28 <andythenorth> I find it kind of baffling to make a grf with some vehicles supporting autorefit and others not 19:06:51 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I said before, there's no way you can get worse than default/eGRVTS-style vehicle spam. Don't bother about it :P 19:07:13 <FLHerne> andythenorth: If you split the trams and crawlers by length, could you autorfit them? 19:07:17 <andythenorth> FLHerne: 105 trams would be needed 19:07:46 <andythenorth> hmm 19:07:55 <andythenorth> could have a parameter to turn each one on / off 19:08:14 <andythenorth> ho 19:08:17 <frosch123> nml only supports 64 parameters 19:08:20 <andythenorth> could make one grf per tram 19:08:26 <andythenorth> that's quite nice 19:08:27 <frosch123> though, you only need bools 19:08:39 <andythenorth> one grf per vehicle = just add the vehicles you want 19:10:13 <andythenorth> idea: remove cargo / body type graphics 19:10:22 <andythenorth> everything is just a box truck / box tram 19:10:27 *** tycoondemon [tycoondemo@524B5F54.cm-4-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [] 19:10:43 <andythenorth> solves a lot of the issues 19:11:33 * andythenorth has another idea 19:11:41 *** tycoondemon [tycoondemo@524B5F54.cm-4-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 19:11:55 <andythenorth> currently refitting to n trailers causes other trailers to be hidden 19:12:05 <andythenorth> what if refit is '2 trailers, but only load 1' 19:12:13 <andythenorth> then length never changes, graphics never change 19:17:10 <FLHerne> andythenorth: But then there's no point :P 19:17:19 <andythenorth> por quoi? 19:17:48 <FLHerne> Why bother refitting to lower capacities, if there's no advantage? 19:18:03 <andythenorth> why refit by length at all? 19:18:09 <andythenorth> why not just use the longest? 19:18:12 <FLHerne> I do it for trams to avoid wasting miles of road space, but that doesn't work if they don't change :P 19:18:28 <FLHerne> Long ones look silly sometimes :P 19:18:38 <frosch123> actually in most cases :p 19:19:19 <andythenorth> that suggests trams are simply just too long 19:19:29 <andythenorth> maybe there's an optimum length for them? 19:19:56 * andythenorth proposes 1 length, and box-van graphics only 19:20:03 <andythenorth> [or open trucks with tarpaulins] 19:20:13 <andythenorth> is 70t about right? 19:20:40 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Long ones are handy sometimes :-( 19:20:59 <FLHerne> But short ones and medium ones are too :P 19:21:10 <FLHerne> Just add them all, and make a long buy-menu :P 19:21:31 <frosch123> andythenorth: solve the purchase list issue with sane retire dates 19:21:34 <FLHerne> Perhaps you need a buy-menu-subcategory thing :P 19:21:42 <andythenorth> proposed HEQS 2: remove crawlers, tractors etc (stupid anyway). Mining trucks are fine. Make trams one length (70t) and one set of graphics only 19:21:46 <frosch123> there is no need to make more than 15 trams available at a single point in time 19:22:01 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Noooo! :-( 19:22:05 <frosch123> for current heqs there is always a clearly best tram 19:22:11 <frosch123> the rest just need to retire 19:22:20 <FLHerne> Then I wouldn't have crawlers, and short trams, and long trams :-( 19:22:32 <andythenorth> FLHerne: but you will have autorefit 19:22:36 <andythenorth> which you considered essentia 19:22:37 <andythenorth> l 19:22:39 <FLHerne> BOTH! :D 19:22:43 <andythenorth> spec says no 19:23:01 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Less tram overlap, separate the lengths 19:23:12 <FLHerne> I don't mind the crawlers enormously 19:23:25 <FLHerne> Keep them, but don't allow autorefit perhaps? 19:23:44 <FLHerne> I only use them for ultra-specific roles anyway, so that's not so bad 19:23:51 <andythenorth> all or nothing 19:24:02 <FLHerne> andythenorth: That's silly :P 19:24:04 <andythenorth> I'm not making a grf with 'some autorefit, but only if you scrutinise the readme' 19:24:13 <andythenorth> it's crappy 19:24:48 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Have crawlers disabled by default, with parameter? 19:25:00 <andythenorth> sticking plaster, not a solution 19:25:15 <frosch123> andythenorth: i think you get it wrong :p 19:25:22 <frosch123> making all trams the same is pointless 19:25:28 <frosch123> then you can as well make only one 19:25:34 <FLHerne> Say that the crawlers are specially-built on site, for the exact purpose :P 19:25:38 <andythenorth> frosch123 I am considering that option :D 19:25:56 <andythenorth> there is always only one obvious best, right? 19:26:01 <andythenorth> so just make one :P 19:26:17 <frosch123> with your approach of making everything the same, yes 19:26:26 <frosch123> that's why all or nothing is wrong 19:26:34 <andythenorth> when playing GS I don't think it matters 19:26:38 <andythenorth> GS is short 19:26:39 <FLHerne> andythenorth: No, just withdraw the old models 19:26:47 <andythenorth> all this model progression crap is over-rated 19:27:08 <andythenorth> in GS MP we just use one train, and people get yelled at for choosing a different one 19:27:09 <FLHerne> I don't see the point in having the first electric ones available by the time the 4th ones come out :P 19:27:18 <FLHerne> andythenorth: That's non-typical ;-) 19:27:33 * FLHerne wants realism and variety 19:28:03 <Alberth> FLHerne: andy is the wrong person for granting such wishes :) 19:28:06 <FLHerne> The thing about model progression is that you need a real difference, not just a little bigger and faster 19:28:19 * andythenorth digresses 19:28:20 <FLHerne> FISH and HEQS don't do that enough :-( 19:28:35 <andythenorth> it's because it can't be done 19:28:36 <Alberth> no auto-refit :p 19:28:49 <andythenorth> what real difference would you have? 19:28:57 <andythenorth> there are no road types or water types? 19:29:07 <andythenorth> breakdowns are meaningless 19:29:18 <andythenorth> so reliability is a moot point 19:29:22 <andythenorth> nobody cares about costs 19:29:43 <andythenorth> the only factors are capacity and speed 19:29:44 <frosch123> andythenorth: take a look at nuts 19:29:44 * Alberth thinks cargo is the main form of differences 19:29:48 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Can ships go faster in different seasons? :-) 19:30:00 <andythenorth> they could vary speed by date yes 19:30:02 <frosch123> make a distinction between fast vehicles, high capacity and similiar 19:30:07 <frosch123> don't allow all combinations 19:30:21 <FLHerne> Then as they get more powerful, they'll be less affected by weather :D 19:30:42 <andythenorth> ships don't have power 19:30:46 <andythenorth> and I can't be bothered to fake that 19:30:54 <andythenorth> it's hard to explain in one line in the buy menu 19:30:55 <frosch123> they have loading times 19:30:57 <andythenorth> yes 19:31:02 <frosch123> and speed 19:31:03 <FLHerne> Just make the newer ones less affected by date :P 19:31:04 <frosch123> and capacity 19:31:09 <andythenorth> meh 19:31:15 <andythenorth> it sounds complicated and pointless to me 19:31:27 * FLHerne likes complicated gameplay ;-) 19:31:36 <FLHerne> Pointlessness is subjective :P 19:31:47 <andythenorth> well yes 19:31:49 <andythenorth> :P 19:31:57 <frosch123> andythenorth: so, let's just say: take the tram and ship graphics, make every tram only available in a single length configuration 19:32:01 <frosch123> and randomise all other stats 19:32:09 <andythenorth> I've considered random stats before :) 19:32:09 <frosch123> like power, length, capacity per wagon, ... 19:32:23 * FLHerne doesn't get it :P 19:32:24 <Alberth> Zuu_: I don't understand the phrase "More Complex Orders" in STR_SHIPS_3_4_1 19:33:01 <Alberth> are there complex orders before? 19:33:10 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:33:30 <andythenorth> frosch123: randomise the ships stats too? :D 19:33:40 <frosch123> yup 19:33:48 <frosch123> capacity, speed and loading time 19:33:51 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 19:34:04 <Zuu_> Alberth: Let me dig it up 19:34:05 <Alberth> frosch123 likes surprises in his game 19:34:21 <frosch123> though maybe you want to put the capacity in relation with the graphics size 19:34:25 <andythenorth> maybe :P 19:34:34 <frosch123> Alberth: different vehicles in each game would be awesome 19:34:48 <andythenorth> frosch123: randomise per model type, or per vehicle instance? 19:34:50 <frosch123> that's why i wonder why so few people play without breakdowns 19:35:00 <frosch123> currently they are the only means to have some randomness in games 19:35:03 * andythenorth likes breakdowns 19:35:11 <frosch123> and then others even want to get rid of random intro dates :s 19:35:14 <Alberth> Zuu_: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1758/ some random text nearby 19:35:25 <Zuu_> Alberth: Here it says "Ships - Complex Orders" 19:35:58 <Alberth> So what's 'Complex' about? 19:36:15 <andythenorth> FLHerne: can you explain how you would have more complications in a [realistic] ship set? 19:36:21 <Zuu_> It is a title for the entire 3_4_* part 19:36:27 <andythenorth> there are gaps in FISH so this is a genuine question 19:36:55 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Add seasonal weather, loading speeds, cargo aging (massive difference for fish and livestock, for example) 19:36:58 <Zuu_> Maybe complex is a too strong word, but it refers to the fact that full load orders are used I think. 19:37:17 <FLHerne> Faster in one direction would be nice, but impossibel? 19:37:19 <Zuu_> I wonder though, where did you get your english.txt? 19:37:30 <andythenorth> FLHerne: seasonal weather is a creative but insane idea 19:37:36 <andythenorth> we already discussed prevailing winds etc 19:37:44 <andythenorth> and it was ruled out as pointless, fragile insane :) 19:37:50 <Alberth> Zuu_: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/gs-tutorial/repository/entry/lang/english.txt#L73 says otherwise 19:38:00 <andythenorth> I like the seasonal idea though 19:38:10 <FLHerne> Also add faster, smaller ones (slightly more difference in speed than as now) 19:38:19 <andythenorth> faster smaller whats? 19:38:24 <FLHerne> Boats 19:38:52 * FLHerne is wandering again :P 19:39:00 <Zuu_> Alberth: I'm sorry, but it appears that I haven't commited the last version there. 19:39:10 <andythenorth> faster smaller boats - speed, capacity suggestions? 19:39:12 <FLHerne> The small ones could use a couple more knots to differentiate ;-) 19:39:27 <FLHerne> I mean the 70tonish ones 19:39:35 <Alberth> Zuu_: ah, that explains the difference :) 19:39:35 <Zuu_> As you see in the commit log, it only have version 8. 19:39:38 <andythenorth> so a 70t, 50mph hovercraft for example? 19:39:55 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6A46A.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 19:39:59 <FLHerne> Not quite that (you have one already, right?) 19:40:06 <frosch123> just turn the utility vessel into a speedboat :) 19:40:15 <FLHerne> Perhaps have some 25knot boats? 19:40:24 <andythenorth> the LCAC for example? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Craft_Air_Cushion 19:40:24 <FLHerne> High cost, lowish capacity 19:40:25 <Alberth> Zuu_: I don't know the current version number, I just took 'tip' 19:40:39 <andythenorth> I am waiting for render paints on the hovercraft, there are two renders 19:40:44 <Zuu_> Ok, I've pushed the changes now. 19:40:51 <FLHerne> Those big hovers look nice 19:40:58 <Zuu_> Sorry for the trouble I've caused you. 19:41:03 <andythenorth> I've had the renders for ~2 years ;) 19:41:12 <Alberth> ok, let's see how much test you broke :) 19:41:20 <andythenorth> loading speeds....what do you think they are set to currently? 19:41:56 <FLHerne> But yes, I'd like something to carry a sane amount of cargo (not a porcupine) a little faster :-) 19:42:11 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Oh, did you do that already? :P 19:42:21 * FLHerne hasn't had new FISH for too long :P 19:42:44 <andythenorth> there is not that much variation tbh, RHS of this table http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Craft_Air_Cushion 19:42:48 <andythenorth> oops wrong link 19:42:50 <andythenorth> http://www.tt-foundry.com/sets/FISH/list_all_vehicles 19:43:04 <Zuu_> Alberth: Its basically all changes by Pingaware + some changes by me. Version 8 added the whole road chapter, so I think there are quite a few text changes in version 9 regarding that chapter. For the other chapters, the number of changes should be lower. 19:43:05 <frosch123> andythenorth: no hoovercraft, just hydrofoil 19:43:17 <andythenorth> the point being, you have no idea in game of what loading speeds are 19:43:21 <andythenorth> so meh to those 19:43:36 <andythenorth> frosch123: only hydrofoil, rm all other ship types? :) 19:44:07 <Alberth> Zuu_: I'll have a look; thanks for the update 19:44:36 <Zuu_> For the record, I'm not convinced that the whole chapter name should be included in the sub section heading. 19:44:40 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Subtle differences are nice too :-) 19:44:52 <andythenorth> you want I show the loading speed in the buy menu? 19:45:00 <FLHerne> Yup :D 19:45:01 <andythenorth> openttd should do it, but I don't mind making up for defects :P 19:45:13 <FLHerne> Show *everything* in the buy menu :P 19:45:34 <andythenorth> we did invent an improved buy menu 19:45:38 <andythenorth> but we didn't code it :) 19:46:15 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.173.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:46:30 <FLHerne> What's the new thing in latest nightly for FISH2? 19:46:45 * FLHerne is stuck a few hundred revisions back :P 19:47:48 <Alberth> Zuu_: for now, I am just translating. I have not played it yet 19:48:13 * Alberth pushes and merges FLHerne unstuck 19:49:08 <andythenorth> FLHerne: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/fish/repository 19:51:26 * FLHerne hasn't spotted it yet :P 19:51:40 <FLHerne> Which way round are those things about ocean/river speed? 19:51:45 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 19:52:06 <andythenorth> some river ships were slower on sea 19:52:12 <andythenorth> this makes them entirely pointless 19:52:15 <andythenorth> so I removed that 19:52:22 <FLHerne> :-( 19:52:27 <FLHerne> I liked that :P 19:52:34 <FLHerne> More difference 19:52:40 <FLHerne> Difference is goos 19:52:43 <andythenorth> no less difference 19:52:54 <Supercheese> river ships are still faster on rivers 19:52:58 <andythenorth> yes 19:53:08 <Supercheese> than ocean ships 19:53:18 <FLHerne> SO what's the change? 19:53:27 <andythenorth> ? 19:53:31 <andythenorth> what's the question? :) 19:53:57 <FLHerne> If river ships remain faster on rivers, how did you remove the slowness? 19:54:05 <andythenorth> I stopped them being slow 19:54:26 <Supercheese> Riverships' river speeds: unchanged 19:54:26 <FLHerne> But then how can be faster on rivers if they're not slower on the sea? 19:54:34 <Supercheese> Riverships' ocean speeds: no longer slow 19:54:39 <andythenorth> what he said ;) 19:54:43 <Supercheese> :D 19:54:52 <FLHerne> But then I can use river ships on the ocean :-( 19:54:57 <andythenorth> yes 19:54:58 <FLHerne> Whic is silly :P 19:55:01 <andythenorth> no 19:55:02 <Supercheese> why? 19:55:05 * FLHerne doesn't want to :-( 19:55:11 <Supercheese> then... don't 19:55:25 <Pinkbeast> I think the rationale is that ocean ships are too big for rivers, not that river ships are not ocean-going? 19:55:29 <Supercheese> the river ships are still inferior to ocean ships on the ocean 19:55:31 <FLHerne> But now I'm not forced not to, so I have to if it's better :-( 19:55:38 <andythenorth> eh? 19:55:45 <andythenorth> previously here's what happened: 19:55:46 <Pinkbeast> (Especially since the "ocean" in OTTD is lakes and coastal areas at best) 19:55:46 <Supercheese> it's not better as I said 19:55:57 <andythenorth> - river ships were slower on river than ocean ships 19:56:04 <andythenorth> - river ships were slower on ocean than river ships 19:56:10 <andythenorth> conclusion: don't use river ships, ever 19:56:19 <andythenorth> I could have rm-ed them if that would have been better 19:56:20 <Pinkbeast> Errr I think point 2 is confused 19:56:24 <FLHerne> The second one doesn't make sense :P 19:56:28 <andythenorth> oops 19:56:35 <andythenorth> - river ships were slower on ocean than ocean ships 19:56:39 <Supercheese> we know whatcha meant 19:57:06 <FLHerne> So make river ships very slow on ocean, and ocean ships infinitely slow in rivers? :P 19:57:19 <andythenorth> no because that's just crap and annoying 19:57:26 * FLHerne would like big tankers to be 0knots on rivers :P 19:57:30 <andythenorth> already ships are significantly crippled in game 19:57:36 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] 19:57:43 <FLHerne> andythenorth: No, it's fun and adds variety :-) 19:57:53 <Supercheese> I believe the source is available 19:57:54 <andythenorth> it's not fun to have ships in the buy menu you don't use 19:58:01 <andythenorth> it isn't variety, it's cruft 19:58:02 <Supercheese> although andy does have a... unique scheme to build FISH 19:58:05 <FLHerne> And would stop those huge tankers glitching so much :P 19:58:06 <Supercheese> ;) 19:58:17 <peter1138> giant map with loads of water 19:58:19 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Use them on rivers :P 19:58:20 <peter1138> == good for ships 19:58:29 <FLHerne> And the ocean ones on oceans :P 19:58:29 <andythenorth> FLHerne: why? they make less money 19:58:34 <Supercheese> you can still likely figure the source out and edit it yourself 19:58:36 <andythenorth> why would you choose to do that? 19:58:46 <FLHerne> andythenorth: So? Money in OTTD isn't short usually 19:59:05 <FLHerne> I do that because I find it interesting, not because it makes profit :-) 19:59:17 <andythenorth> but that's not a game 19:59:19 <andythenorth> that's a train set 19:59:25 <andythenorth> I'm not making a train set 19:59:28 <andythenorth> I'm making a game ;) 19:59:51 <FLHerne> andythenorth: It's still a game, just not one about making profit :P 20:00:00 <andythenorth> FLHerne: checkout the repo 20:00:07 <andythenorth> edit src/FISH.cfg 20:00:11 <andythenorth> it's just a text file 20:00:20 <FLHerne> For me, it's about being able to transport everything on the map without massive backlogs or looking unrealistic :-) 20:00:35 <andythenorth> set sea_capable = False for river ships 20:00:36 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Would break MP though? :P 20:00:41 <andythenorth> ys 20:00:47 <FLHerne> Add a parameter :P 20:00:47 <andythenorth> or distribute your own version 20:01:08 <andythenorth> no 20:01:10 <FLHerne> 'river ships sea-capable' [yes|no] :-) 20:01:19 <andythenorth> parameters are for weak-minded people who can't make choices 20:01:28 <andythenorth> design involves choices 20:01:44 <FLHerne> No, they're for people who know that users will have differing wishes :P 20:01:59 <andythenorth> No, that's what the GPL is for 20:02:07 <FLHerne> If I want one thing, and someone else wants another, add both :P 20:02:48 <Pinkbeast> I do think there's a lot to be said for making shipping more viable 20:02:51 <FLHerne> But having two grfs on BaNaNaS identical but for a minor speed difference would be silly :P 20:03:06 <FLHerne> Pinkbeast: It's very viable already :-) 20:03:16 <andythenorth> you can't win GS challenges with ships 20:03:17 <andythenorth> too slow 20:03:19 * FLHerne has about 30% of all cargo on ships :-) 20:03:32 <FLHerne> andythenorth: GS challenges are stupid :P 20:03:40 <andythenorth> hmm 20:03:40 <andythenorth> nope 20:03:46 <andythenorth> empirically, you are wrong 20:03:50 <FLHerne> They enforce arbitrary goals that stop you from having fun :-( 20:03:52 <Supercheese> Clearly there is a difference of opinion here 20:03:58 <Supercheese> to each their own playstyle 20:04:19 <FLHerne> I want to faff around with inefficient messes, not simply transport x pigs per annum :P 20:04:26 <andythenorth> you know a funny thing I found 20:04:37 <andythenorth> there's a man who is refusing to buy this new lego train http://www.flickr.com/photos/gambort/8037440254/ 20:04:46 <andythenorth> because the windows are black, and on the real one they are dark grey 20:04:52 <andythenorth> and he is really very upset about it 20:04:55 <andythenorth> on the internet 20:05:04 <andythenorth> it has actually, as far as I can tell, ruined his week 20:05:17 <andythenorth> despite that nobody knew this train existed until Sunday 20:05:22 <FLHerne> It's LEGO! It's made of ANGULAR BLOCKS! 20:05:25 <andythenorth> and it's Lego and can be rebuilt 20:05:38 * FLHerne has lots of lego :-) 20:06:18 <andythenorth> also some of the 'fans' are very distressed by the included minifigs 20:06:45 *** KritiK [~Maxim@176.14.56.193] has joined #openttd 20:07:10 <andythenorth> so what I conclude is: the internet is full of people who are wrong 20:07:35 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Seen XKCD on that? 20:07:38 <andythenorth> yes ;) 20:07:43 <andythenorth> also wtf shall I do about HEQS? 20:07:55 <Supercheese> you mean autorefit? 20:08:01 <andythenorth> no more generally 20:08:08 <FLHerne> andythenorth: It's mostly fine :-) 20:08:11 <andythenorth> it already has vehicles in different sizes, capacities, speeds etc 20:08:25 <andythenorth> frosch123: so your suggestion might be? ^ 20:08:56 <Supercheese> HEQS is great, why does it need changes? 20:09:03 <FLHerne> Fix tram withdrawal dates, split trams by capacity, make all but crawlers autorefit. Do *something* with the rail GmundMog - rm if necessary :P 20:09:45 <Supercheese> there was an interesting suggestion of allowing autorefit in general but disallowing it with certain cargo subtype combinations 20:09:55 <Supercheese> not sure how that would work, callback wizardry likely 20:10:00 <andythenorth> that's all broken currently 20:10:05 <andythenorth> allows the creation of invalid orders 20:10:18 <FLHerne> Invalid orders aren't a problem 20:10:35 <andythenorth> yes they are 20:10:44 <FLHerne> They're only a problem if they're not preventable by common sense and/or RTM 20:10:46 <andythenorth> for the same reason as a broken button is a problem 20:10:54 <andythenorth> let's break some buttons :) 20:11:09 <andythenorth> actually, let's make orders non-determinstic 20:11:15 <FLHerne> It should be obvious that refitting from coal to milk won't work :P 20:11:17 <andythenorth> you set 'goto harpington' 20:11:18 <Supercheese> oy vey, here we go again 20:11:33 <andythenorth> but actually openttd decides 'goto shiningtown' 20:11:38 <andythenorth> it's not just analagous, it's identical 20:11:58 <andythenorth> it should be obvious that sometimes the game decides to send your vehicle to a different station 20:12:12 <andythenorth> we could have a dice roll 20:12:22 <andythenorth> in fact, we could actually have an enormous animated dice 20:12:31 <andythenorth> every time a vehicle moves to next order in list 20:12:41 <andythenorth> in the middle of the screen, with sound effects 20:12:51 <andythenorth> you have to click to get a 6 20:12:59 <andythenorth> if you don't get a 6, random order happens 20:13:16 <FLHerne> andythenorth: No, autorefit should be the same every time :P 20:13:26 <FLHerne> If it isn't you broke it :P 20:13:31 <andythenorth> e? 20:13:39 <FLHerne> That's assuming the same cargoes :P 20:13:43 <andythenorth> do you understand that autorefit is non-determinstic? 20:13:57 <FLHerne> You mean the auto-load-whatever bit? 20:14:08 <Supercheese> I'm referring to autorefit with fixed cargos specified 20:14:14 <Supercheese> not autorefit to whatever is available 20:14:26 <Supercheese> I can see how autorefit to whatever is problematic 20:14:38 <FLHerne> The refit-at-station bit is generally deterministic :P 20:14:47 <FLHerne> I use the other one a lot though :-) 20:14:56 <Supercheese> yeah, I suppose we need to definitively say that autorefit /= refit-at-station 20:15:01 <Supercheese> despite them being similar in the code 20:15:52 <Supercheese> and drop-down menu 20:16:00 <andythenorth> they are identical for newgrf 20:16:13 <Supercheese> yep, but conversational issues may arise 20:16:33 <Supercheese> "do you mean fixed-autorefit or autorefit-to-whatever?" 20:16:35 <Supercheese> :S 20:16:40 <andythenorth> it's irrelevant tbh 20:16:52 <Supercheese> w.r.t. coding issues yes 20:16:57 <andythenorth> I see your point :) 20:17:07 <FLHerne> One is predictable by the user, the other isn't :-) 20:17:18 <andythenorth> no 20:17:23 <andythenorth> neither are predictable by user 20:17:53 <FLHerne> With the former, you know which cargoes can be on the train 20:18:19 *** roadt [~roadt@60.168.82.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:18:48 <andythenorth> but you don't know if the newgrf will allow the refit 20:19:57 <FLHerne> andythenorth: It's called a manual :P 20:20:08 <FLHerne> Or common sense, if the developer is sane :-) 20:20:50 <andythenorth> so you can happily accept that two people might want different things in a newgrf (i.e. you propose parameters), but you think there's a single shared common sense? 20:21:03 <FLHerne> Again, manuals :P 20:21:25 <FLHerne> Or add parameters for refitting too, but that might be overkill ;-) 20:21:27 <andythenorth> yes, I definitely read the manual for my computer when I learned how to use it 20:21:32 <andythenorth> and for my phone 20:21:38 <andythenorth> and for Quake 20:21:44 <andythenorth> and for Dope Wars 20:21:49 <FLHerne> In that case, trial-and-error will do :P# 20:21:59 <andythenorth> and I certainly always read the manual before playing Mario Kart 20:22:25 <andythenorth> which grf should you read the manual for? 20:22:36 <andythenorth> as you don't even know what grf the vehicle belongs to 20:22:53 <FLHerne> Of course you do :P 20:23:04 <Supercheese> I fully expect people to read either the main forum thread of the readme for my grfs; their contents are roughly the same 20:23:07 <FLHerne> Who doesn't know which grf their vehicles are from? 20:23:10 <Supercheese> or the readme* 20:23:29 * andythenorth expects nobody to read anything 20:23:41 <andythenorth> there are about 25k active downloaders of grfs on bananas at my guess 20:23:48 <FLHerne> andythenorth: That's silly 20:24:05 <andythenorth> most of those 25k probably cycle through the game quite fast 20:24:13 <FLHerne> Just ignore people who can't be bothered to either read or trial-and-error :P 20:24:16 <andythenorth> and most have no idea tt-forums etc exists 20:24:23 <andythenorth> I don't get the trial-and-error point 20:24:29 <andythenorth> how does that work? 20:24:30 <FLHerne> Ingame readme-viewer now ;-) 20:24:45 <andythenorth> readme for which grf though? 20:24:57 <andythenorth> we suspect that a majority of players simply load all grfs from banananas 20:25:11 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Try refitting x to y -> does that work? -> Do/don't do that again ;-) 20:25:21 <andythenorth> how do you know if it works? 20:25:24 <andythenorth> there's zero feedback 20:25:28 <FLHerne> andythenorth: That's simply not true :P 20:25:36 <andythenorth> you have to watch the orders 20:25:43 <FLHerne> andythenorth: If it fills up with cargo, it works :-) 20:25:46 <andythenorth> orders / refit /s 20:25:57 <FLHerne> If it fills up with a different cargo, it doesn't :P 20:26:06 <andythenorth> ok, so do you have all the info windows open for all vehicles all the time? 20:26:14 <andythenorth> how big is your screen? :o 20:26:39 <FLHerne> If I were experimenting to see which refits worked, I'd do it in an organised manner :P 20:27:00 <FLHerne> As in, one refit at a time, check if it works, do it again :-) 20:27:19 <andythenorth> that is a quick way to lose in a GS game :o 20:27:28 <FLHerne> I'd rather just read the readme though ;-) 20:27:44 <andythenorth> what about when you share orders between different vehicle types? 20:27:50 <FLHerne> Once you know, it's no longer necessary to do it a second time :P 20:28:16 <Supercheese> shared orders between different vehicle types? Is that... legal? 20:28:18 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Make sure that both vehicle types support the cargoes you're using? 20:28:27 <FLHerne> Supercheese: Of course :-) 20:28:37 *** tycoondemon [tycoondemo@524B5F54.cm-4-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:28:43 <Supercheese> Hmm, never done that, or at least not enough that I recall 20:28:44 <FLHerne> I really don't see the big deal here 20:28:51 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@524B5F54.cm-4-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 20:28:57 <Supercheese> seems like it could lead to problems 20:29:03 <andythenorth> Supercheese: it's common 20:29:14 * Supercheese prefers uniformity 20:29:27 <andythenorth> shared orders between different types is entirely supported, bar autorefit 20:29:30 <Supercheese> but to each their own 20:29:45 <andythenorth> Supercheese: what about when you're upgrading? 20:30:08 <andythenorth> you send them all vehicles with shared orders to depot, sell them, then build new ones? 20:30:24 <FLHerne> andythenorth; It's supported with autorefit too :-) 20:30:38 <Supercheese> autoreplace within groups 20:30:49 <Supercheese> s'what I most often do, or global autoreplace 20:30:59 <andythenorth> so no shared orders? 20:31:01 <FLHerne> Supercheese: You still get mixed groups while doing that :P 20:31:10 <Supercheese> yes, but not on purpose :P 20:31:13 <FLHerne> s/groups/order groups/ 20:31:38 <Supercheese> I use shared orders all over the place, but each vehicle is identical 20:31:47 <FLHerne> How is it less supported by autorefit than anything else? 20:31:53 <Supercheese> but I digress 20:32:03 <Supercheese> and am not explaining things well either :P 20:32:52 <FLHerne> When doing it normally, you have to check both carry the same cargoes where relevant; autorefit is the same but you have to check they can both be autorefitted appropriately too 20:36:36 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 20:37:38 <Eddi|zuHause> uhoh... i'm afraid to read the backlog with so much andythenorth in it... :) 20:37:43 <andythenorth> ho ho 20:37:50 <andythenorth> you didn't miss anything 20:37:51 <Supercheese> trolololo 20:37:53 <andythenorth> can I summarise? 20:37:56 <andythenorth> [....] 20:38:14 <andythenorth> you probably had a better time doing whatever you were doing ;) 20:38:24 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: andy wants to move the rail vehicles from heqs to fish or so 20:38:48 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds totally like something andythenorth would do :p 20:39:12 <andythenorth> ho 20:39:15 <andythenorth> what a nice idea :) 20:39:23 <frosch123> :p 20:39:30 <andythenorth> frosch123: I'll make sure I credit you with that 20:39:31 <andythenorth> twice 20:40:27 <frosch123> people already hate me enough :) 20:41:54 <Supercheese> hmm the OTTD commit rss appears to have died for me 20:42:13 <frosch123> did it run via cia? 20:42:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: CIA is dead 20:42:17 <Supercheese> yeah 20:42:19 <Supercheese> ah 20:42:21 <Supercheese> that would do it 20:42:34 <Supercheese> what happen? some one set up it the bomb? 20:42:39 <Eddi|zuHause> dead as in won't ever come back alive 20:42:45 <andythenorth> frosch123: I strongly suspect nobody hates you - but nvm :) 20:43:19 <frosch123> http://cia.vc/ <- they still hope 20:43:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: damn, now i have some bad 8-bit sound in my head :p 20:43:33 <frosch123> http://twitter.com/OpenTTDSVN <- Supercheese: if you want to be a hip kid 20:43:42 <Supercheese> oooh 20:43:44 <Supercheese> shiny 20:44:07 <frosch123> no idea who runs it :) 20:44:56 <Eddi|zuHause> well, vcs.openttd.org has a big "rss feed" button at the bottom 20:45:38 <frosch123> also in the address bar :p 20:46:40 <frosch123> "Rekuto, ein bisschen wie Sikaku" <- i love such summaries 20:47:42 <Eddi|zuHause> that is totally descriptive 20:49:32 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: wrt autorefit, the evidence from the forum poll doesn't fit my hypothesis :( 20:49:38 <andythenorth> what kind of poll is that? :P 20:50:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you don't have the cognitive dissonance of a professional politician yet 20:50:37 <andythenorth> I am capable of that kind of delusion 20:50:43 <andythenorth> I just choose not to do it :P 20:52:06 <andythenorth> here's an idea 20:52:16 <andythenorth> trigger a message if an autorefit isn't allowed 20:52:18 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Your hypothesis was misaligned with reality :D 20:52:22 <andythenorth> currently fails silently 20:52:29 <FLHerne> andythenorth: That would fix it :-) 20:52:38 <FLHerne> For explicit instructions, anyway 20:53:45 <andythenorth> frosch123 option to fail cb 15E, but with a string in return value? 20:54:23 <andythenorth> doesn't fix the subtypes mess, but puts a plaster over autorefit 20:54:39 <frosch123> where would the text be shown? 20:56:02 <andythenorth> one of those red error boxes 20:56:18 <andythenorth> similar to trying to route an articulated rv to a drive-in stop 20:56:48 <andythenorth> hmm 20:56:57 <andythenorth> there is no error when trying to route an articulated rv to a drive-in stop :P 20:57:16 <Supercheese> isn't there? 20:57:26 <andythenorth> my mistake - bus vs truck stop 20:57:32 <frosch123> andythenorth: autorefit happens in stations without user interaction 20:57:41 <andythenorth> so trigger the error then too ;) 20:57:45 <frosch123> you could issue news item, like for failed autoreplace 20:57:48 <andythenorth> yes 20:57:51 <frosch123> but i think that might be annoying 20:57:51 <andythenorth> or lost vehicle 20:58:07 <andythenorth> more or less annoying than invalid orders? :) 20:58:20 <frosch123> what kind of invalid orders? 20:58:28 <andythenorth> orders that can't be fulfilled 20:58:36 <frosch123> like? 20:59:04 <andythenorth> refit to A from B, but cb 15E doesn't allow it 20:59:35 <frosch123> also in case of "refit to available"? 21:00:00 <andythenorth> how does "refit to available" handle cb 15E result? 21:00:05 <andythenorth> presumably sanely? 21:00:18 <frosch123> it restricts the refit options i hope 21:00:24 <andythenorth> the docs on refitting at stations maybe could be expanded 21:00:31 <andythenorth> if I understood how it worked, I'd add to them 21:00:49 <andythenorth> I refer to all use of cb15E as 'autorefit' 21:00:59 <andythenorth> whether it's explicit or 'refit available' 21:01:00 *** Beardie [~chatzilla@cpc8-pres13-2-0-cust118.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 21:01:17 <andythenorth> maybe I'm just confused about how it works, and all is well? o_O 21:01:44 <frosch123> well, for explicit refit to specifc cargo, a newsitem might make sense 21:02:19 <Supercheese> Hmm, some inflation-related fixing happening in recent commits? 21:02:39 <frosch123> yes 21:02:43 <frosch123> something broken? 21:02:54 <Supercheese> no, just glad to see some work on that 21:03:07 <Supercheese> since the general response has been "turn inflation off" for quite some time 21:03:22 <frosch123> then you misunderstood what has been changed :p 21:03:25 <Yexo> that's still the general response :) 21:03:35 <Yexo> the only thing that was fixed was an overflow causing negative prices 21:03:42 <Supercheese> oh hmm 21:03:53 <Supercheese> thought I saw a reference to MAX_INFLACTION 21:03:57 <Supercheese> typo 21:03:58 <Supercheese> derp 21:04:03 *** Beardie [~chatzilla@cpc8-pres13-2-0-cust118.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 21:04:04 <Supercheese> INFLATION* 21:04:44 <Supercheese> guess that's been around already? 21:04:53 * Supercheese hasn't really looked at the code 21:06:55 <andythenorth> randomise all the things 21:07:01 <andythenorth> randomise inflation! 21:07:10 <andythenorth> real life does it 21:08:35 <andythenorth> frosch123: do you seriously want randomised vehicle properties per game? 21:08:40 <andythenorth> I have seriously considered it before 21:08:48 *** keoz [~keikoz@159.90.76.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: keoz] 21:09:36 <frosch123> it likely depends on how much they are randomised 21:09:44 <frosch123> it should not be silly 21:10:06 <frosch123> i.e. capacity needs to have some relation to sprite size, and should not be randomised by factor 10 21:10:26 *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 21:10:31 <frosch123> but some randomness would be nice 21:11:13 <frosch123> per-model randomness, not per-vehicle :) 21:11:48 <andythenorth> cost and running cost are obvious candidates 21:11:54 <andythenorth> reliability the game already does 21:12:00 <andythenorth> capacity...interesting :P 21:12:02 <andythenorth> speed - maybe 21:12:36 <andythenorth> power - maybe 21:12:51 <andythenorth> cb36 misses model life :P 21:12:55 <andythenorth> probably for good reasons 21:13:54 *** argoneus [~argoneus@ip-78-102-118-47.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:14:04 <andythenorth> I could add it to FISH 2 and test it 21:14:21 <frosch123> remains the question how to randomise :p 21:14:23 <andythenorth> how much randomisation? vary 25% capacity either way? 21:14:25 <frosch123> via parameter? 21:14:31 <andythenorth> parameter for on / off 21:14:41 <frosch123> well, you need some random number :p 21:14:55 <frosch123> currently user would have to set one via parameters 21:14:57 <frosch123> e.g. 4 21:15:19 <andythenorth> there's no random bits available in buy menu? 21:15:26 <frosch123> nope 21:15:29 <andythenorth> ugh 21:15:33 <andythenorth> that makes it harder :) 21:15:38 <frosch123> randomb bits are always per vehicle 21:15:40 <frosch123> not per model 21:15:48 <andythenorth> get something off the map? 21:15:57 <andythenorth> number of towns :P 21:16:01 <andythenorth> population of first town 21:16:15 <andythenorth> probably not in scope 21:16:35 <frosch123> you can use the company colour :p 21:16:38 <andythenorth> he 21:17:02 <andythenorth> so each company colour would provide a different schema for randomising :P 21:17:35 <andythenorth> so if I write an nml random switch in buy menu chain, does it just fail? 21:17:53 <andythenorth> or is it always default result or such? 21:17:55 *** Wold [~Wold@93-152-170-93.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #openttd 21:18:00 <frosch123> i think var43 is your best choice for now 21:18:16 <frosch123> it's available in purchase list as well 21:18:23 <frosch123> just, it changes when you switch colours 21:18:36 <frosch123> (i would not mind ifferent stats for different conpanies) 21:18:46 <andythenorth> that's plausible 21:19:41 * andythenorth likes this idea 21:19:46 <andythenorth> it is silly, which is nice 21:20:31 * andythenorth had better sleep 21:20:32 <andythenorth> bye 21:20:35 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 21:21:00 <frosch123> capacity changes on company colour likely desync though :p 21:24:22 *** argoneus [~argoneus@ip-78-102-118-47.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 21:24:29 <frosch123> night 21:24:31 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f4463.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:30:15 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-112-81.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 21:39:27 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 21:41:11 <Terkhen> good night 21:48:38 *** Jake [~chatzilla@host81-156-48-130.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 21:50:29 *** argoneus [~argoneus@ip-78-102-118-47.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:55:20 <Wolf01> 'night all 21:55:23 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host11-216-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 21:56:16 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:57:39 *** M1zera [~Miranda@ip-89-176-31-70.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:01:22 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-26-128.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:07:53 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host81-155-169-162.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:27:24 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:30:42 *** hmmwhatsthisdo [~hmmwhatst@h75-100-224-83.lactwa.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #openttd 22:32:46 *** Zuu_ [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:54:43 *** Knogle [knogle@1604ds5-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:54:57 *** Knogle [knogle@1604ds5-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd 23:32:04 *** hmmwhatsthisdo [~hmmwhatst@h75-100-224-83.lactwa.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has left #openttd [] 23:33:49 *** Progman [~progman@87.161.171.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:44:19 *** __ln__ [~lauri@dyn-xdsl-83-150-116-30.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:53:09 *** __ln__ [~lauri@dyn-xdsl-83-150-116-30.nebulazone.fi] has joined #openttd 23:57:08 *** KritiK [~Maxim@176.14.56.193] has quit [Quit: Leaving]