Log for #openttd on 2nd October 2012:
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00:52:13  <TorA> Anyone here know why I have no Livestock car in the NARS when it's 1937?
00:52:21  <TorA> Better yet, anyone know a way to fix that :\
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07:21:14  <Terkhen> good morning
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07:29:36  <KnogleAFK> morning
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07:34:22  <NGC3982> What's NARS?
07:34:45  <NGC3982> Oh, six hours late.
07:38:28  <Terkhen> north american rail set IIRC, a trains NewGRF
07:39:13  <NGC3982> Ah, i see.
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07:49:49  <andythenorth> blah blah blah
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11:10:47  <NGC3982> Is there any NewGRF with giant train wagons?
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11:13:23  <planetmaker> yes. cets
11:13:29  <planetmaker> search the devzone
11:13:44  <planetmaker> I still got the feeling "giant" is a rubber term and I understand it MUCH differently from you
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11:16:37  <NGC3982> Oh, i see.
11:17:06  <NGC3982> Well, i was talking about capacity
11:17:18  <NGC3982> But didn't mention it, for some reason.
11:17:20  <NGC3982> :>
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12:24:31  <Eddi|zuHause> well CETS has double-decker S-Bahn wagons :)
12:33:36  <NGC3982> Ooh
12:35:13  <Eddi|zuHause> the long-distance wagons have around the same capacity (per tile, not per wagon) as the original wagons, the local wagons have around 50% more, and the s-bahn wagons have around double capacity, the double decker wagons have additional capacity.
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12:52:54  <Elukka> oberhÃŒmer hasn't drawn quite that far yet, has he? :P
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13:05:06  <NGC3982> Elukka: Sounds nice.
13:05:08  <NGC3982> Ill try it.
13:09:31  <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: not really
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14:25:50  <doki_pen_> is there a good place to learn openttd scripting for a programmer?
14:29:16  <planetmaker> here, tt-forums, and of course the API documentation at and
14:29:56  <planetmaker> and there's an admin port; it's somewhat documented in the docs shipped with openttd. there's a java library and a python library for it around
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14:30:41  <planetmaker> not exactly sure what you need / want, doki_pen_
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15:29:09  <andythenorth> michi_cc: PEBKAC is a nice acronym :)
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17:18:06  <doki_pen_> planetmaker: thanks
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17:18:15  <doki_pen_> got distracted by work
17:18:42  <doki_pen_> i just want to mainly see what's possible. Is it possible to script monotonous tasks?
17:19:00  <doki_pen_> for instance, upgrading from electric rail to monorail is a PITA
17:20:19  <doki_pen_> here is what I do now: depot all trains. upgrade everything I can. go through every depot that didn't get upgraded and create a monorail version of the train, copying the old trains schedule(with ctrl-click). Sell old trains.
17:20:25  <doki_pen_> don't know if there is an easier way
17:20:34  <doki_pen_> and finally, convert all remaining depots
17:21:20  <M1zera> hmm... I usualy see about 3-4 episodes of The Simpsons before I upgrade all trains
17:21:45  <doki_pen_> haha, is that the trick?
17:22:19  <Prof_Frink> doki_pen_: Yep, that's about standard.
17:22:31  <M1zera> :-)
17:22:38  <Prof_Frink> But I generally don't bother with monorail, and wait for maglev.
17:23:12  <Prof_Frink> (I do tend to build a transmap standalone monorail line, just because I can)
17:23:13  <doki_pen_> i just started playing a couple of weeks ago, I haven't played one long enough to get maglev yet
17:23:22  <M1zera> I build monorail only as new tracks outside of my network.
17:23:52  <doki_pen_> but my current one will probably last that long
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17:24:35  <doki_pen_> how come when I try to find a server, most of them are incompatible?
17:24:56  <doki_pen_> do i have to install some plugins manually?
17:29:41  <M1zera> "Downloadable GRFs" in menu
17:30:19  <M1zera> "Check online content"
17:30:21  <M1zera> my bad
17:31:16  <M1zera> I prefer playing solo, I usualy play one map for weeks... play for 15min, pause for hours to days unpause... :)
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17:38:14  <Alberth> building new tracks or manually rebuilding lines with the new track type is much more fun imho; also you often rethink the layout, and improve the network as well.
17:42:09  <planetmaker> doki_pen_, scripts are not intended as helpers for the player; thus their capabilities are also not designed for that
17:42:27  <planetmaker> scripts are either separate players or global game scripts
17:43:01  <planetmaker> upgrading to monorail is easy: depot all trains. mass-convert the whole map. build new depots; build new trains with shared orders with the old. about 10 minutes time
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17:53:19  <dada__> "One of the great things about GOG is that many games run in DOS. Mac users can run these games using the Macintosh version of Dosbox or by using Boxer, another DOS emulator."
17:53:25  <dada__> oops, wrong channel
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18:02:06  <Wolf01> evenink
18:02:13  <Alberth> hi Wolf01, andythenorth
18:05:10  <peter1138> GOG: Games you can download from "abandonware" sites instead
18:06:43  <__ln__> if you don't care about breaking the law.
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18:47:44  <andythenorth> hmm
18:47:49  <andythenorth> my autorefit poll is not going well
18:47:57  <andythenorth> I was hoping for policy-based evidence making
18:48:27  <FLHerne> andythenorth: The evidence doesn't suit your policy :P
18:48:35  * FLHerne voted 'essential' :D
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18:49:01  <andythenorth> I need different evidence
18:49:15  * andythenorth considers a different poll
18:49:26  <Alberth> andythenorth: you can prove anything with statistics :p
18:49:48  <andythenorth> "a tiny minority of respondents consider autorefit 'essential'"
18:50:26  <andythenorth> or a new poll, just two answers... "autorefit: [  ] not needed  [   ] I suck and am a bad person"
18:51:00  <planetmaker> [x] I suck and am a bad person ;-)
18:51:49  <planetmaker> (going to trigger the nuke in fallout3's megaton ;-) )
18:52:00  <Alberth> [x] never used autorefit
18:52:25  <FLHerne> [x] Rely on it for almost everything, network would fall apart without it :P
18:52:37  <M1zera> hm, i have played F3 many times and i have never blown Megaton up... Im just the good guy...
18:53:32  <FLHerne> However, I also rely on template-replace, which is unstable, non-MP-safe, abandoned and has no chance of getting in trunk soon :-(
18:53:54  <andythenorth> FLHerne: you can't possibly rely on it for almost everything
18:54:00  <andythenorth> most newgrfs don't offer it
18:54:04  <andythenorth> nor the default vehicles
18:54:24  <FLHerne> andythenorth: The ones I use most do now :P
18:54:27  <andythenorth> unless you have a *very* specific play style :P
18:54:41  <Alberth> andythenorth: what makes you think you need most newgrfs ?
18:54:54  <andythenorth> point
18:55:48  <FLHerne> UKRS2 and FISH2ish do, and those cover 80+% of my cargo movement :-)
18:55:59  * FLHerne waits for autorefitting HEQS :P
18:56:10  <FLHerne> Then I can get 90+% :D
18:56:42  <andythenorth> impossible
18:56:52  <andythenorth> [HEQS with autorefitting]
18:57:54  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Other than the trams?
18:57:57  <andythenorth> actually not impossible
18:58:00  <andythenorth> but not acceptable
18:58:10  <andythenorth> not acceptable ~= impossible
18:59:29  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Besides the trams, what's different from any other RV set for that?
19:01:05  <andythenorth> the mining trucks would be entirely, 100% fine
19:01:18  <andythenorth> and the foundry transporters
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19:02:01  <FLHerne> What would a foundry transporter autorefit to anyway? :P
19:02:25  <FLHerne> Just separate the tram models and have done with it :D
19:02:32  <FLHerne> Oh, and the crawlers :P
19:03:56  <andythenorth> I'm not against having the trams in a separate grf
19:03:59  <andythenorth> that's plausible
19:04:11  <andythenorth> it's a bit of hassle, more repos, more readmes, more banananaas admin
19:05:20  <FLHerne> What's wrong with as now?
19:05:32  <FLHerne> You have a param anyway...
19:06:05  <planetmaker> I don't think there's need to split HEQS... it's not too big really
19:06:28  <andythenorth> I find it kind of baffling to make a grf with some vehicles supporting autorefit and others not
19:06:51  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I said before, there's no way you can get worse than default/eGRVTS-style vehicle spam. Don't bother about it :P
19:07:13  <FLHerne> andythenorth: If you split the trams and crawlers by length, could you autorfit them?
19:07:17  <andythenorth> FLHerne: 105 trams would be needed
19:07:46  <andythenorth> hmm
19:07:55  <andythenorth> could have a parameter to turn each one on / off
19:08:14  <andythenorth> ho
19:08:17  <frosch123> nml only supports 64 parameters
19:08:20  <andythenorth> could make one grf per tram
19:08:26  <andythenorth> that's quite nice
19:08:27  <frosch123> though, you only need bools
19:08:39  <andythenorth> one grf per vehicle = just add the vehicles you want
19:10:13  <andythenorth> idea: remove cargo / body type graphics
19:10:22  <andythenorth> everything is just a box truck / box tram
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19:10:43  <andythenorth> solves a lot of the issues
19:11:33  * andythenorth has another idea
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19:11:55  <andythenorth> currently refitting to n trailers causes other trailers to be hidden
19:12:05  <andythenorth> what if refit is '2 trailers, but only load 1'
19:12:13  <andythenorth> then length never changes, graphics never change
19:17:10  <FLHerne> andythenorth: But then there's no point :P
19:17:19  <andythenorth> por quoi?
19:17:48  <FLHerne> Why bother refitting to lower capacities, if there's no advantage?
19:18:03  <andythenorth> why refit by length at all?
19:18:09  <andythenorth> why not just use the longest?
19:18:12  <FLHerne> I do it for trams to avoid wasting miles of road space, but that doesn't work if they don't change :P
19:18:28  <FLHerne> Long ones look silly sometimes :P
19:18:38  <frosch123> actually in most cases :p
19:19:19  <andythenorth> that suggests trams are simply just too long
19:19:29  <andythenorth> maybe there's an optimum length for them?
19:19:56  * andythenorth proposes 1 length, and box-van graphics only
19:20:03  <andythenorth> [or open trucks with tarpaulins]
19:20:13  <andythenorth> is 70t about right?
19:20:40  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Long ones are handy sometimes :-(
19:20:59  <FLHerne> But short ones and medium ones are too :P
19:21:10  <FLHerne> Just add them all, and make a long buy-menu :P
19:21:31  <frosch123> andythenorth: solve the purchase list issue with sane retire dates
19:21:34  <FLHerne> Perhaps you need a buy-menu-subcategory thing :P
19:21:42  <andythenorth> proposed HEQS 2: remove crawlers, tractors etc (stupid anyway).  Mining trucks are fine.  Make trams one length (70t) and one set of graphics only
19:21:46  <frosch123> there is no need to make more than 15 trams available at a single point in time
19:22:01  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Noooo! :-(
19:22:05  <frosch123> for current heqs there is always a clearly best tram
19:22:11  <frosch123> the rest just need to retire
19:22:20  <FLHerne> Then I wouldn't have crawlers, and short trams, and long trams :-(
19:22:32  <andythenorth> FLHerne: but you will have autorefit
19:22:36  <andythenorth> which you considered essentia
19:22:37  <andythenorth> l
19:22:39  <FLHerne> BOTH! :D
19:22:43  <andythenorth> spec says no
19:23:01  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Less tram overlap, separate the lengths
19:23:12  <FLHerne> I don't mind the crawlers enormously
19:23:25  <FLHerne> Keep them, but don't allow autorefit perhaps?
19:23:44  <FLHerne> I only use them for ultra-specific roles anyway, so that's not so bad
19:23:51  <andythenorth> all or nothing
19:24:02  <FLHerne> andythenorth: That's silly :P
19:24:04  <andythenorth> I'm not making a grf with 'some autorefit, but only if you scrutinise the readme'
19:24:13  <andythenorth> it's crappy
19:24:48  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Have crawlers disabled by default, with parameter?
19:25:00  <andythenorth> sticking plaster, not a solution
19:25:15  <frosch123> andythenorth: i think you get it wrong :p
19:25:22  <frosch123> making all trams the same is pointless
19:25:28  <frosch123> then you can as well make only one
19:25:34  <FLHerne> Say that the crawlers are specially-built on site, for the exact purpose :P
19:25:38  <andythenorth> frosch123 I am considering that option :D
19:25:56  <andythenorth> there is always only one obvious best, right?
19:26:01  <andythenorth> so just make one :P
19:26:17  <frosch123> with your approach of making everything the same, yes
19:26:26  <frosch123> that's why all or nothing is wrong
19:26:34  <andythenorth> when playing GS I don't think it matters
19:26:38  <andythenorth> GS is short
19:26:39  <FLHerne> andythenorth: No, just withdraw the old models
19:26:47  <andythenorth> all this model progression crap is over-rated
19:27:08  <andythenorth> in GS MP we just use one train, and people get yelled at for choosing a different one
19:27:09  <FLHerne> I don't see the point in having the first electric ones available by the time the 4th ones come out :P
19:27:18  <FLHerne> andythenorth: That's non-typical ;-)
19:27:33  * FLHerne wants realism and variety
19:28:03  <Alberth> FLHerne: andy is the wrong person for granting such wishes :)
19:28:06  <FLHerne> The thing about model progression is that you need a real difference, not just a little bigger and faster
19:28:19  * andythenorth digresses
19:28:20  <FLHerne> FISH and HEQS don't do that enough :-(
19:28:35  <andythenorth> it's because it can't be done
19:28:36  <Alberth> no auto-refit :p
19:28:49  <andythenorth> what real difference would you have?
19:28:57  <andythenorth> there are no road types or water types?
19:29:07  <andythenorth> breakdowns are meaningless
19:29:18  <andythenorth> so reliability is a moot point
19:29:22  <andythenorth> nobody cares about costs
19:29:43  <andythenorth> the only factors are capacity and speed
19:29:44  <frosch123> andythenorth: take a look at nuts
19:29:44  * Alberth thinks cargo is the main form of differences
19:29:48  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Can ships go faster in different seasons? :-)
19:30:00  <andythenorth> they could vary speed by date yes
19:30:02  <frosch123> make a distinction between fast vehicles, high capacity and similiar
19:30:07  <frosch123> don't allow all combinations
19:30:21  <FLHerne> Then as they get more powerful, they'll be less affected by weather :D
19:30:42  <andythenorth> ships don't have power
19:30:46  <andythenorth> and I can't be bothered to fake that
19:30:54  <andythenorth> it's hard to explain in one line in the buy menu
19:30:55  <frosch123> they have loading times
19:30:57  <andythenorth> yes
19:31:02  <frosch123> and speed
19:31:03  <FLHerne> Just make the newer ones less affected by date :P
19:31:04  <frosch123> and capacity
19:31:09  <andythenorth> meh
19:31:15  <andythenorth> it sounds complicated and pointless to me
19:31:27  * FLHerne likes complicated gameplay ;-)
19:31:36  <FLHerne> Pointlessness is subjective :P
19:31:47  <andythenorth> well yes
19:31:49  <andythenorth> :P
19:31:57  <frosch123> andythenorth: so, let's just say: take the tram and ship graphics, make every tram only available in a single length configuration
19:32:01  <frosch123> and randomise all other stats
19:32:09  <andythenorth> I've considered random stats before :)
19:32:09  <frosch123> like power, length, capacity per wagon, ...
19:32:23  * FLHerne doesn't get it :P
19:32:24  <Alberth> Zuu_: I don't understand the phrase "More Complex Orders" in STR_SHIPS_3_4_1
19:33:01  <Alberth> are there complex orders before?
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19:33:30  <andythenorth> frosch123: randomise the ships stats too? :D
19:33:40  <frosch123> yup
19:33:48  <frosch123> capacity, speed and loading time
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19:34:04  <Zuu_> Alberth: Let me dig it up
19:34:05  <Alberth> frosch123 likes surprises in his game
19:34:21  <frosch123> though maybe you want to put the capacity in relation with the graphics size
19:34:25  <andythenorth> maybe :P
19:34:34  <frosch123> Alberth: different vehicles in each game would be awesome
19:34:48  <andythenorth> frosch123: randomise per model type, or per vehicle instance?
19:34:50  <frosch123> that's why i wonder why so few people play without breakdowns
19:35:00  <frosch123> currently they are the only means to have some randomness in games
19:35:03  * andythenorth likes breakdowns
19:35:11  <frosch123> and then others even want to get rid of random intro dates :s
19:35:14  <Alberth> Zuu_:   some random text nearby
19:35:25  <Zuu_> Alberth: Here it says "Ships - Complex Orders"
19:35:58  <Alberth> So what's 'Complex' about?
19:36:15  <andythenorth> FLHerne: can you explain how you would have more complications in a [realistic] ship set?
19:36:21  <Zuu_> It is a title for the entire 3_4_* part
19:36:27  <andythenorth> there are gaps in FISH so this is a genuine question
19:36:55  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Add seasonal weather, loading speeds, cargo aging (massive difference for fish and livestock, for example)
19:36:58  <Zuu_> Maybe complex is a too strong word, but it refers to the fact that full load orders are used I think.
19:37:17  <FLHerne> Faster in one direction would be nice, but impossibel?
19:37:19  <Zuu_> I wonder though, where did you get your english.txt?
19:37:30  <andythenorth> FLHerne: seasonal weather is a creative but insane idea
19:37:36  <andythenorth> we already discussed prevailing winds etc
19:37:44  <andythenorth> and it was ruled out as pointless, fragile insane :)
19:37:50  <Alberth> Zuu_:  says otherwise
19:38:00  <andythenorth> I like the seasonal idea though
19:38:10  <FLHerne> Also add faster, smaller ones (slightly more difference in speed than as now)
19:38:19  <andythenorth> faster smaller whats?
19:38:24  <FLHerne> Boats
19:38:52  * FLHerne is wandering again :P
19:39:00  <Zuu_> Alberth: I'm sorry, but it appears that I haven't commited the last version there.
19:39:10  <andythenorth> faster smaller boats - speed, capacity suggestions?
19:39:12  <FLHerne> The small ones could use a couple more knots to differentiate ;-)
19:39:27  <FLHerne> I mean the 70tonish ones
19:39:35  <Alberth> Zuu_: ah, that explains the difference :)
19:39:35  <Zuu_> As you see in the commit log, it only have version 8.
19:39:38  <andythenorth> so a 70t, 50mph hovercraft for example?
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19:39:59  <FLHerne> Not quite that (you have one already, right?)
19:40:06  <frosch123> just turn the utility vessel into a speedboat :)
19:40:15  <FLHerne> Perhaps have some 25knot boats?
19:40:24  <andythenorth> the LCAC for example?
19:40:24  <FLHerne> High cost, lowish capacity
19:40:25  <Alberth> Zuu_: I don't know the current version number, I just took 'tip'
19:40:39  <andythenorth> I am waiting for render paints on the hovercraft, there are two renders
19:40:44  <Zuu_> Ok, I've pushed the changes now.
19:40:51  <FLHerne> Those big hovers look nice
19:40:58  <Zuu_> Sorry for the trouble I've caused you.
19:41:03  <andythenorth> I've had the renders for ~2 years ;)
19:41:12  <Alberth> ok, let's see how much test you broke :)
19:41:20  <andythenorth> loading speeds....what do you think they are set to currently?
19:41:56  <FLHerne> But yes, I'd like something to carry a sane amount of cargo (not a porcupine) a little faster :-)
19:42:11  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Oh, did you do that already? :P
19:42:21  * FLHerne hasn't had new FISH for too long :P
19:42:44  <andythenorth> there is not that much variation tbh, RHS of this table
19:42:48  <andythenorth> oops wrong link
19:42:50  <and