Log for #openttd on 5th October 2012:
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00:02:06  <SgtGeneralCase> SDL_VIDEO_X11_XRANDR=0 scummvm ...
00:02:15  <SgtGeneralCase> Try-and-see what it does.
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00:02:56  <Eddi|zuHause> that seems to work better
00:03:21  <Eddi|zuHause> second thing: scummvm gets distorted aspect ratio when fullscreen
00:03:48  <SgtGeneralCase> The bug is now 2 years old. It looks like they reverted it for 1.3, but alas, SDL-1.3 has not hit the scene anytime.
00:03:49  <Eddi|zuHause> not only because of 16:9 screen, but it adds additional black bars at the top and bottom, to distort it even more
00:05:06  <SgtGeneralCase> dosbox is happy with my 16:10 screen
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00:07:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not quite sure what i just set, but it changed now
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06:00:52  <__ln__> huomenta
06:10:02  <Terkhen> good morning
06:11:59  <Terkhen> SgtGeneralCase: base sets and NewGRFs should not be able to crash OpenTTD so when they do, is is a bug in OpenTTD
06:12:27  <Terkhen> so yes, a bug report would be appreciated :)
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07:06:47  <planetmaker> moin
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07:57:21  <Alberth> moin
07:58:40  <Terkhen> hi planetmaker and Alberth
07:58:49  <Alberth> hi Terkhen
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08:00:27  <NGC3982> Morning.
08:06:55  <Alberth> o/
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11:13:21  <NGC3982> Guys, i think i need help
11:13:32  <NGC3982> Ive been trying to understand entry-exit for a while now, but i simply don't get it
11:13:36  <NGC3982>
11:13:42  <NGC3982> Here is what ive got.
11:14:10  <NGC3982> Two trains occupy the rails. I want the train to go to the "unreserved" rails if the station is busy with the other train.
11:14:34  <NGC3982> And i can't seem to work it out :/
11:14:56  <Eddi|zuHause> the pathfinder can only go through dead end rails if they end in a depot
11:15:05  <NGC3982> Oh, ok
11:15:09  <NGC3982> Or a station?
11:15:20  <Eddi|zuHause> a station only if it is in the order list
11:15:25  <NGC3982> Ah, i see.
11:15:48  <Eddi|zuHause> you should read up on "overflow depots" anyway
11:17:25  <NGC3982> I see, i found a entry i think i can use. Thanks
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11:26:02  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: with dead-end rails in order to turn around there, the pathfinder would need to know how long the train is, and not consider any sidings shorter than the train length, which is problematic to implement. that is why it is restricted to depots, where we know that all trains fit in.
11:30:20  <NGC3982> Oh, ok
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15:17:16  <Eddi|zuHause> ok, that's definitely an ending of maniac mansion that i never had before
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15:42:59  <Alberth> did you manage to find a winning combination?
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16:02:41  <andythenorth> lo
16:03:00  <andythenorth> everything is broken, the sky is falling
16:03:02  <andythenorth> oops
16:03:04  <andythenorth> wrong channel
16:05:12  <NGC3982> Or so it seems.
16:07:14  <__ln__> the sky is falling and you would have left us in the dark about it?!
16:10:42  <NGC3982> I guess this channel doesn't need godly truths.
16:10:54  * NGC3982 plays OpeTTD on a train
16:11:03  <NGC3982> Is this Trainception?
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16:13:31  * NGC3982 should use the pseuodym Maglev DiCaprio more often.
16:14:13  <andythenorth> is it an MP GS kind of day?
16:14:15  <andythenorth> frosch123: planetmaker
16:14:16  <andythenorth> ?
16:14:31  <andythenorth> Zuu & I lost horribly on our last challenge :)
16:14:44  <frosch123> not for me
16:15:02  <frosch123> unless we do it just now
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16:15:08  <frosch123> and it only lasts one hour :)
16:16:05  <andythenorth> nah
16:16:07  <andythenorth> bad timing ;)
16:16:56  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I hate GS, but wouldn't mind an MP CDist :P
16:18:54  <planetmaker> How can you say "hate GS"? That's like "Hate NewGRF".
16:19:04  <andythenorth> he's just odd
16:19:05  <planetmaker> or "hate patches" :D
16:19:12  <andythenorth> I hate sensible stuff
16:19:17  <andythenorth> like bad UI
16:19:28  <andythenorth> not whole classes of things with no value judgement attached
16:19:32  <FLHerne> planetmaker: Correction: I hate the kind of GS andy plays :P
16:19:34  <andythenorth> although I do hate all onions
16:19:43  <planetmaker> *nom*
16:19:51  <planetmaker> onion cake... yummi
16:20:05  <FLHerne> That cargo-required-for-town-growth one is quite nice :-)
16:20:12  <andythenorth> meh to that
16:20:24  <andythenorth> is there a target town size?
16:20:42  <FLHerne> I don't think so, why would you want one?
16:20:43  <planetmaker> not yet, I think
16:21:00  <FLHerne> Targets just force you to do stuff at the expense of having fun ;-)
16:21:01  <planetmaker> define a game end by town size instead of time
16:21:18  <andythenorth> FLHerne: your argument is valid but not convincing
16:21:18  <planetmaker> targets make it fun :-)
16:21:31  <andythenorth> I follow your chain of reasoning and it makes entire sense
16:21:37  <andythenorth> but I don't accept your premise
16:21:40  <planetmaker> give the game a purpose if you're in for just a bit of playing
16:22:13  <Alberth> planetmaker:  target town size ∞  ?
16:22:23  <planetmaker> :-)
16:22:27  <planetmaker> that's default :-P
16:22:33  <FLHerne> andythenorth: My idea of fun is 'build an inefficient but somewhat realistic network, with lots of connecting services and tiny branch lines'
16:22:48  <andythenorth> [shrug]
16:22:51  <andythenorth> ok
16:23:02  <andythenorth> no argument
16:23:03  <FLHerne> Being forced to transport x cargo or make x profit would be boring :-(
16:23:13  <andythenorth> [shrug]
16:23:14  <andythenorth> ok
16:23:16  <andythenorth> no argument
16:23:22  * FLHerne agrees to disagree :P
16:23:52  <planetmaker> Both is an equally valid goal :-)
16:24:06  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Can't you just set yourself a goal in your head? :P
16:25:05  <planetmaker> that's not the same, FLHerne
16:26:17  <andythenorth> I can do it
16:26:19  <andythenorth> I choose not to
16:26:39  <FLHerne> planetmaker: Have a GS that just prints all the statistics, and let the user decide what goals they feel like setting :-)
16:26:50  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Fair enough :P
16:27:06  <andythenorth> what's the most popular game in the world?
16:27:30  <FLHerne> Dunno. If you count derivatives, Quake might be
16:27:36  <andythenorth> patience
16:27:39  <FLHerne> Or some of the MMORPGs
16:27:54  <andythenorth> specifically the patience that ships by default with MS Windows
16:27:55  * FLHerne automatically assumes 'computers' on IRC :P
16:28:12  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Is it really? Sounds unlkely...
16:28:57  <andythenorth>
16:29:01  <planetmaker> I think it's highly likely
16:29:09  * FLHerne has spent ages playing a FOSS version of Minesweeper :-)
16:29:32  * planetmaker also has played both uncounted times
16:29:39  <planetmaker> heck even in windows 2.7 days
16:30:20  <andythenorth> if you add in all patience (solitaire) variants, including those played with real cards
16:30:24  <andythenorth> it's the biggest game
16:30:27  <andythenorth> easily
16:31:10  * FLHerne isn't convinced
16:31:23  <andythenorth> I have no stats
16:31:28  <andythenorth> it's a plausible claim though
16:31:40  <FLHerne> I simply don't know *anyone* who plays that regularly, compared to many who play other things :P
16:31:50  * FLHerne has no stats either though
16:31:58  <andythenorth> we probably play Facebook a lot more now
16:32:04  <andythenorth> maybe it's not 2004 any more
16:33:10  <andythenorth> anyway
16:33:10  <FLHerne> Facebook isn't a game :P
16:33:14  <andythenorth> yes it is
16:33:27  <andythenorth> most social transactions can be modelled as a game
16:33:44  <FLHerne> No, it's a system to collect everyone's personal details and then sell them to third-parties :P
16:33:55  <andythenorth> it's ludic, it has optimum strategies etc
16:34:24  <andythenorth> there's no single game called Facebook, different people are playing different sub-games I guess
16:34:53  <andythenorth> I was playing OpenTTD differently for a while
16:35:02  <andythenorth> I was playing "get new features added to the newgrf spec"
16:35:09  <andythenorth> but I've given that up, I kept losing
16:35:31  <andythenorth> now I'm playing "finish all the fricking newgrfs so I never have to make any more"
16:35:58  <andythenorth> and GS
16:36:20  <FLHerne> andythenorth: But you need to make more NewGRFs :-(
16:36:34  * FLHerne wants more andy-made GRFs :P
16:36:38  <andythenorth> I am currently trying to make fewer
16:36:40  <planetmaker> you kept loosing the NewGRF feature game? I think you've been the most successful player there, andythenorth
16:36:50  <planetmaker> you play that well, imho
16:36:52  <andythenorth> it's like Dwarf Fortress
16:36:56  <andythenorth> ultimately, you always lose
16:37:02  <planetmaker> :-)
16:37:29  <FLHerne> Is there a spec for NewGRF buoys yet?
16:37:39  * FLHerne knows someone who wanted to draw some :P
16:37:46  <andythenorth> I might scrap BANDIT, that is one fewer grf
16:38:29  <FLHerne> andythenorth: But I need more trucks :-(
16:38:41  <andythenorth> why?
16:38:47  <andythenorth> what's wrong with the current ones?
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16:38:52  <FLHerne> eGRVTS is awful, and the 'realistic' ones are too small :P
16:39:02  <andythenorth> why is eGRVTS awful?  Seems unfair...
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16:39:37  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Horrible buy-menu spam, for one :P
16:39:53  <FLHerne> At least v2 has much better graphics :-)
16:40:02  * FLHerne uses it anyway :P
16:40:23  <FLHerne> Nothing else has good horse-vehicles
16:42:03  <FLHerne> If you would like to order something, please let me know (either by email or in person) the size, colour and make that you would like (eg Fruit of the Loom or Gildan). I understand that we can have any combination of colours and types, as long as the logo is the same. Other articles of clothing such as sweatshirts and rugby shirts are also available if anyone feels particularly inspired, give me a shout and I can find out the relevant info.
16:42:03  <FLHerne> I suppose I am a little unfair to Zephyris :P
16:42:10  <FLHerne> Drat :-(
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16:52:17  <andythenorth> FLHerne: trucks are lame anyway
16:52:21  <andythenorth> you only need mail trucks
16:52:28  <andythenorth> everything else should be done with trains
16:52:42  <FLHerne> andythenorth: And food trucks, and fruit trucks, and supply trucks :P
16:52:45  <andythenorth> no
16:52:58  <FLHerne> And sometimes fish trucks
16:53:32  <FLHerne> andythenorth: 'no'?
16:54:21  <andythenorth> have you not read the goals for OpenTTD on the wiki?  I'll paste
16:54:30  <andythenorth> "OpenTTD is a transport themed educational game.  The purpose of the game is to show that trains are the best form of transport.  Currently the world transports most of its cargo by truck, boat and airplance.  We hope that by making this game, people will recognise that trains are neglected and should be used as the default form of transport."
16:54:49  <andythenorth> airplance is a typo, the wiki should be fixed
16:55:25  <FLHerne> andythenorth: That's wrong :P
16:55:47  <andythenorth> not my words :P
16:55:51  <andythenorth> that's the game goals
16:55:52  * FLHerne uses about 50% trains, 35% ships and 15% RVs :-)
17:01:19  * Rubidium uses mostly effect vehicles ;)
17:01:49  <andythenorth> do you have a branch where effect vehicles are newgrf-ed? o_O
17:02:05  <Rubidium> andythenorth: where is that?
17:02:25  <andythenorth> I thought maybe you wrote it :P
17:04:24  <andythenorth> FLHerne: you can see which country you're realistically modelling o_O
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17:06:36  <FLHerne> Lithuania or Romania then :P
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17:14:44  <andythenorth> OpenTTD mostly represents Latvia I think
17:14:47  <andythenorth> mostly trains
17:15:01  <andythenorth> we should make OpenGFX look like Latvia :P
17:17:44  <FLHerne> Trouble is, gameplay with other types just isn't so interesting :-(
17:18:02  * FLHerne wants ship range and refuelling times :-)
17:18:33  <FLHerne> Plane range helped, now I only avoid them from habit rather than choice :P
17:19:19  <andythenorth> FLHerne: try new FIRS :P
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17:19:25  <andythenorth> planes for supplies are essential
17:19:32  <FLHerne> andythenorth: How?
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17:19:48  * FLHerne looks forward to having a use for helos :-)
17:19:49  <andythenorth> actually that pre-supposes GS and a time limit
17:19:53  <andythenorth> forget what I said
17:19:55  <andythenorth> just use trains
17:19:58  <andythenorth> trains for everything
17:20:05  <andythenorth> we should actually rename it
17:20:12  <andythenorth> OpenTrainTimeDeluxe
17:20:25  <andythenorth> it's like your own personal toy train set
17:20:37  <FLHerne> andythenorth: But it has ships, too :D
17:20:55  <andythenorth> just remove them tbh
17:20:58  <andythenorth> they're useless
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17:21:14  <FLHerne> No, they're incredibly useful :-)
17:21:24  <andythenorth> trains are always better
17:21:35  <andythenorth> trains are faster
17:21:42  <FLHerne> My train networks always fall over when they get into the 100ktonne range :P
17:21:43  <planetmaker> you don't want to tell me, andythenorth, that the way I use trains to get oil from a rig is ok,? :D
17:21:51  <andythenorth> it's the most logical
17:22:03  <andythenorth> if ships were faster, they might be better
17:22:05  <FLHerne> Ships are perfect for vast quantities of minerals - as in real life :P
17:22:11  <frosch123> if you want to transport 1000 tons of sweets per month across 20 tiles, ships are certainly better
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17:22:24  <andythenorth> trains would earn more
17:22:32  <FLHerne> andythenorth: They don't need to be. They're fine already
17:22:41  <andythenorth> maybe ships should travel 67mph or so
17:22:45  <FLHerne> Money in OTTD is rarely a problem :P
17:22:48  <andythenorth> I think there's a cap on speed
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17:23:03  <frosch123> trains are no longer effective if you need more than two tracks per direction for a single point-to-point connection
17:23:08  * FLHerne always has far too much, despite not playing to make profit :P
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17:23:22  <andythenorth> frosch123: I bet you can't win a GS challenge with ships
17:23:25  <andythenorth> money on it :)
17:23:49  * planetmaker writes a game script "deliver X amount by each transport type" :D
17:24:35  <Eddi|zuHause> if transfers don't count, it may be difficult to do anything with ships
17:24:49  <andythenorth> :)
17:24:56  <frosch123> andythenorth: what's the point?
17:25:01  <frosch123> you can set the time limit 10 times higher
17:25:13  <frosch123> you can make any challenge as hard or easy as you want
17:25:22  <andythenorth> so let's invert my silly bet
17:25:33  <andythenorth> what's a good GS challenge for non-train transport types?
17:25:46  <andythenorth> for the 2 hour game with SV or NCG, trains just win
17:25:51  <frosch123> islands
17:25:57  <frosch123> with high terraforming cost
17:26:01  <frosch123> and too short bridges
17:26:06  <frosch123> anyway, night :)
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17:26:09  <andythenorth> bye ;)
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17:26:17  <andythenorth> take that man at his word
17:26:22  <FLHerne> andythenorth: CargoDist makes ships more useful :P
17:26:30  <andythenorth> let's make a new GS map for SV
17:26:49  <FLHerne> Cargo is much easier to transfer between modes, and it tries to travel further ;-)
17:27:07  <FLHerne> Both of which are good for ships :-)
17:27:52  <andythenorth> ships with YACD was also good
17:28:06  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: ships have the huge advantage that they scale with increasing cargo amounts
17:28:17  <Eddi|zuHause> indefinitely
17:28:21  <planetmaker> oh yes. I remember how you, terkhen and myself battled the map(s) with yacd and firs :-)
17:28:35  <FLHerne> andythenorth: But YACD is no fun. Restrictive :-(
17:28:49  * FLHerne starts going on about that sort of thing again :P
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17:31:39  <planetmaker> FLHerne, the final networks basically look the same for both yacd and cargodist
17:31:44  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so if the challenge is soemthing like "be the first to transport $amount of $cargo in one year", then the ship guy might win this for larger numbers
17:32:20  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i disagree. cargodist allows you to ignore some remote industries
17:32:34  <planetmaker> _final_ :-)
17:32:53  <Eddi|zuHause> "ignore" means "they will not be in the final network"
17:32:56  <planetmaker> yes, cargodist is more forgiving in that respect
17:32:58  <FLHerne> There's a lot of gameplay before that, though :P
17:33:12  * FLHerne likes to join everything up eventually, though :P
17:33:20  <Eddi|zuHause> YACD makes it really difficult to start out with industries
17:33:37  <Eddi|zuHause> especially with diverse industry grfs like ECS or FIRS
17:33:38  <planetmaker> you definitely have to look for a good route, yes
17:33:52  <planetmaker> it gets nicer when you have autorefit there, though :-)
17:34:19  <planetmaker> in these kind of scenarios it really comes in handy, if not even essential
17:35:20  <andythenorth> YACD works fine with a cluster of primaries *if* you get lucky on routes :P
17:35:44  <andythenorth> also it's easy to start with PAX especially if there are a couple of nearby islands with large cities
17:35:51  * andythenorth misses YACD :(
17:36:00  <andythenorth> YACD + GS would be bonkers
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17:36:44  <Eddi|zuHause> we should refit cargodist with "restrictive" cargo routing (optional) and finally commit it
17:36:59  <andythenorth> is it fun?
17:37:06  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
17:37:07  <andythenorth> the idea of cargodist never appealed to me
17:37:17  <andythenorth> but I haven't played it so EnoEvidence
17:40:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't played without destinations for years
17:41:29  <Eddi|zuHause> once you play d*st you never go back
17:41:40  <planetmaker> I find the idea of destinations more interesting than of distribution
17:42:42  <Eddi|zuHause> they are the same thing from a broader statistics point of view
17:42:53  <Eddi|zuHause> which is the sole reason why cargodist actually works
17:43:16  <andythenorth> this may well be incorrect, but I was put off by the complexity in the screenshots I saw + the docs
17:43:20  <Yexo> good evening
17:43:24  <andythenorth> lo Yexo
17:44:09  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you can play cargodist without any increased complexity at all. point-to-point connections still work
17:44:12  <planetmaker> hello Yexo
17:44:38  <andythenorth> it looked like there was a lot of work in managing links and such
17:45:05  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but when you make complex transfer networks, all the micromanagement is removed
17:45:08  <andythenorth> but yeah, no evidence
17:45:57  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you just have to provide enough capacity so everything gets transported. but the whole order management with "transfer" and "no loading" can be ignored
17:47:26  <FLHerne> andythenorth: The complexity is imaginary ;-)
17:48:08  <FLHerne> If your vehicles on a route are full, add more vehicles or create a new route to divert some of the traffic :P
17:48:40  <FLHerne> If they aren't, don't - that's about all there is to the network management :P
17:48:46  <andythenorth> so how does it work?
17:48:55  <andythenorth> I don't understand the fundamental
17:49:16  <andythenorth> it routes cargo, but you create the routes
17:49:18  <andythenorth> right?
17:49:20  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there is not much to understand.
17:50:01  <andythenorth> planetmaker is there a coop nightly server with cargodist?
17:51:37  <FLHerne> andythenorth: You move vehicles around the place, the game maps where those vehicles are going and puts cargo onto them :P
17:51:58  <andythenorth> so why do the forum threads have so many issues with route balancing and such?
17:51:59  <planetmaker> andythenorth, not (yet). Anything is feasible
17:52:20  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Because it's not always perfect :P
17:52:53  <andythenorth> but how can there be balancing issues?
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17:53:10  <FLHerne> eg, sometimes the cargo will always want to go A->C->B rather than A->D->B, for non-obvious reasons :P
17:53:34  * FLHerne has that problem sometimes when running both fast and stopping pax trains on the same line
17:53:53  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you don't provide enough capacity to handle ALL cargo, things get dodgy.
17:54:12  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: this is different from the default game where surplus cargo doesn't do any harm
17:54:22  <andythenorth> ok
17:54:30  <FLHerne> andythenorth: That's where the ships come in ;-)
17:54:40  <FLHerne> They're great at soaking up excess load :-)
17:54:54  <andythenorth> so surplus cargo starts getting loaded onto any vehicle which can complete the link graph?
17:54:55  <Eddi|zuHause> especially passengers show this problem, as there is a HUUUUUGE number of them
17:55:03  <FLHerne> Especially those freaking-huge freighter things
17:55:05  <andythenorth> or just any vehicle? :P
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17:55:42  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: when a link is overcrowded, things may take silly detours, making other links overcrowded as well... and that backfires
17:56:42  <andythenorth> so from a single source (A), how is cargo apportioned to connected destinations B-Z ?
17:57:02  <andythenorth> 1/25 to each?
17:59:23  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Depends how many vehicles are going to each, how long it takes to get there and the distance :P
17:59:56  <FLHerne> But about even if they're all identical :-)
18:00:01  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there's "some algorithm" in place to determine the "size" of the destination
18:00:32  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but "all equal" is probably a common occurance for non-passangers
18:01:33  <Eddi|zuHause> the details are rather unimportant, which is why i did not memorize them
18:01:39  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: CDist needs to add a settings multiplier for pax/mail production. Agreed?
18:02:28  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: no.
18:02:44  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: :P
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18:03:08  <Eddi|zuHause> while that feature might be very useful, it should at no point be "part" of cargodist
18:03:15  <FLHerne> Especially with non-DD trainsets, it's very difficult to deal with the sheer numbers at the moment
18:03:25  <FLHerne> I mean as part of the patch
18:03:41  <FLHerne> It's silly to have to modify townsets to make it manageable
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18:06:00  <andythenorth> it's silly that newgrf industry and houses can't respond to an economy setting for production amounts
18:06:37  <FLHerne> andythenorth: That would be a better idea :-)
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