Log for #openttd on 8th October 2012:
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00:30:15  <Elukka>
00:30:21  <Elukka> another falcon 9 is going up to the ISS in 5 minutes
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00:49:34  * Supercheese has just found out what this "Gangnam style" hype is
00:49:56  <Supercheese> Mildly amusing at best. The Internet picks up and runs with strange things
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01:28:04  <Industrial> Anyone have tips? This is all from self-learning >_> I'm using trains 5 carts long;
01:41:25  <Snail> what trainset are you using?
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05:44:18  <Kenjy> hello guys
05:44:28  <Kenjy> i have a question
05:44:53  <Kenjy> i installed 32bpp but the gui wasnt take over in the "mod"
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08:31:43  <NGC3982> I don't understand this. If a town gets bad rating because of me terraforming, depending on the town size - it's impossible to get better rating?
08:33:32  <Leto`> plant a massive amoun tof tree (without destroying anyithing)
08:36:04  <NGC3982> That actually helped.
08:42:37  <Leto`> ;)
08:42:52  *** Leto` is now known as Fremen
08:43:27  <Fremen> it's indeed annoying if you build too much around a city then you can't build anythign there
08:43:41  <Fremen> trees are the solution :p
08:43:52  <Fremen> anything as in stations
08:44:49  *** Guest942 is now known as planetmaker
08:45:01  <planetmaker> first build stations. Then terraform and build tracks
08:45:09  <planetmaker> Authorities are real tree-huggers in OpenTTD
08:45:20  <planetmaker> Don't mess with their beloved ones ;-)
08:45:31  <MNIM> quite the contrary to IRL authorities.
08:45:51  <NGC3982> Yes, i know. But i keep missing out.
08:45:52  <NGC3982> Bah.
08:45:56  <NGC3982> Hehe
08:45:58  <V453000> or take the path of violence and use magic dozer on them
08:46:00  <Eddi|zuHause> have you ever dealt with real authorities?
08:46:46  <telanus> Those here just want bribes :P
08:47:16  * NGC3982 remembers when trying to get permit to set up a new street sign outside his office.
08:47:48  <NGC3982> It took me six months, and the time spent cost more than the actual sign.
08:48:25  <planetmaker> where I live there really are also rules on how many trees (or area) you have to plant trees if you build a commercial building...
08:49:12  <NGC3982> The same goes around here.
08:49:27  <NGC3982> It has actually worked pretty good, too.
08:50:46  <NGC3982> For every square meter of land you buy of the county for buildings, you have to pay for additional forest preservation/plantation around the county
08:51:26  <NGC3982> In Vaxjo county (Kronoberg), there is a big company that helps new businesses with the payments to the very same preservations, but in return get to keep maintainance of the city parks, forests and such.
08:51:52  <NGC3982> And they build stuff like crazy. Fountains, pavilions, statues and such.
08:51:57  <NGC3982> Tis' be neat.
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09:18:43  <planetmaker> nice answer on the savegame compatibility, Eddi|zuHause :-)
09:35:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i get that a lot :p
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13:29:27  <andythenorth> oh
13:29:30  <andythenorth> he actually posted it
13:29:39  <andythenorth> "OTTD is dying..."
13:29:40  <andythenorth> :o
13:29:48  <andythenorth> he's a very clever and elegant troll :)
13:30:01  <andythenorth> that's made my day :)
13:30:08  <planetmaker> ho andythenorth :-)
13:30:31  <andythenorth> definitely a troll
13:30:43  <andythenorth> probably with good intentions too
13:33:50  <andythenorth> how does that song go?
13:33:56  <planetmaker> the # commits / unit time *does* decrease. At least in the svn repo
13:33:57  <andythenorth> "Dying since the day I was born"
13:34:12  <andythenorth> Lisa Loeb!
13:34:17  <andythenorth> Nine Stories!
13:34:23  <planetmaker> But... there's grfcodec. There's NML. There's NewGRFs. All which is no longer counted directly towards that commit count
13:34:24  <andythenorth>
13:34:36  <planetmaker> as it's not part of the svn
13:35:04  <planetmaker> nor actually the experimental branches, which nowadays often are hg or git repos on other servers, too
13:35:20  <andythenorth> stuff dies
13:35:24  <andythenorth> all the big features are done
13:35:34  <andythenorth> there's very little shiny low-hanging fruit
13:35:39  <andythenorth> the gaps are filled
13:35:56  <andythenorth> and many features are simply blocked by reality :)
13:36:05  <andythenorth> it's kind of 'done'
13:36:11  <planetmaker> there's a lot of big features which could be added. But... big fruit are not necessarily easy to grow
13:36:27  <andythenorth> it's a complexity problem, everything interacts with everything else
13:36:34  <andythenorth> [shrug]
13:36:35  <planetmaker> height levels. newgrf bridges, infra sharing, cargo distributions or destinations, ... whatever :-)
13:36:46  <andythenorth> they don't necessarily improve gameplay
13:37:01  <andythenorth> making 12 good GS would add a lot more life to OpenTTD than [big feature x]
13:37:06  <planetmaker> I think the 32bpp graphics could change the perception of the game quite a lot
13:37:13  <planetmaker> and you're right about the GS
13:37:13  <andythenorth> meh, they're only pictures
13:37:21  <andythenorth> gameplay beats all
13:37:26  <planetmaker> perception. Not gameplay. yes :-)
13:38:03  <andythenorth> also the assumption that openttd is seeking big market share
13:38:08  <andythenorth> that keeps coming up
13:38:10  <andythenorth> is that a goal?
13:39:26  <planetmaker> well. Not directly. On the other hand, personally I like to make things enjoyable for rather more people than few. On the pre-condition that I enjoy it, too ;-)
13:39:42  <planetmaker> or at least not mind
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14:11:12  <Markk> Internetz is ze börken.
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14:34:27  <Markk>
14:34:43  <Markk> Things like that is funny to look at.
14:34:53  <Markk> I'm calling it: OpenTTD Mindfuck.
14:45:49  <NGC3982> What the
14:46:01  <Rubidium> it's a simple image flip
14:46:05  <NGC3982> MC Escher called and wanted his game back
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14:48:36  <al3x> hi there
14:50:12  <al3x> @Markk sweet mindfuck :D getting dizzy
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15:02:26  <Markk> :D
15:02:32  <Markk> Rubidium: It is.
15:02:38  <Markk> Rubidium: But the simple is fun.
15:02:39  <Markk> :)
15:02:50  <supermop> hi
15:13:16  <andythenorth> two of my favourite websites are going to domain holding pages :P
15:13:21  <andythenorth> coincidence?
15:13:30  <andythenorth> or conspiracy...? :)
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15:42:41  * telanus wonder if one can make a disaster where your truckdrivers go on strike (like:
15:44:54  <supermop> hi andy
15:45:04  <supermop> hi built a lego heqs truck last week
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15:46:35  <andythenorth> not true without pictues
15:46:39  <andythenorth> pictures *
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15:55:52  <supermop> look on the forum
16:10:37  <al3x> link for the lazy ones?
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16:24:52  <BadBrett> splendid... my sprite splitter works as a charm. hopefully animating complex tile layouts will be a lot easier now
16:25:07  <supermop>
16:25:42  <|Terkhen|> hello
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16:27:05  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Hoyo :-)
16:28:04  <BadBrett> really great to see more afols out there... by the way, are you going to participate in the competition?
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16:29:29  <supermop> competition?
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16:47:08  <andythenorth> supermop: didn't get the mining truck yet
16:47:14  <andythenorth> got the rest of the mining stuff
16:48:53  <supermop> i got it as a prop for our show room window
16:48:55  <supermop> its nice
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16:53:41  <BadBrett> yeah there's a lego technic competition
16:54:20  <BadBrett>
16:59:02  * andythenorth likes the comments from MB :)
16:59:25  <planetmaker> andythenorth, both, you and him derail the topic, tbh
16:59:51  <planetmaker> considering to lock it
17:00:26  <planetmaker> and I have to say, you started trolling, I'm afraid
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17:03:04  <andythenorth> well my comment was genuine + true, but yes ok ;)
17:03:14  <andythenorth> and I think I know what MB is saying as well
17:04:05  <andythenorth> have we reached Eternal September?
17:04:06  <planetmaker> genuine and true: yes. Only effect is to derail, though
17:06:02  <andythenorth> I wouldn't lock it yet, it's not particularly acrimonious
17:06:24  <planetmaker> I've had enough of that (guessing the meaning of that word)
17:06:38  <planetmaker> to get another of such threads
17:06:49  <andythenorth> I could delete my comment if you want
17:08:52  <planetmaker> don't bother. too late
17:09:50  <andythenorth> it didn't strike me as the most trolly thing I've done, but maybe my judgement is off :P
17:09:54  <andythenorth> if so, oops :o
17:12:43  <planetmaker> I don't quite mind really. But I found it quite sub-andy standard
17:12:53  <planetmaker> just telling :-)
17:14:11  <planetmaker> but maybe I just read it totally different than you intended it to be understood :-)
17:14:49  <planetmaker> anyway your comments are surpassed already by the subsequents; they're putting the topic down the drain
17:15:40  <planetmaker> can't be arsed. Locked it
17:20:47  <Terkhen> ooh
17:20:51  <Terkhen> there goes my answer :(
17:24:08  <andythenorth> fwiw, one of the programmers who works with me is giving this talk this week
17:24:27  <andythenorth> related to the same issue "Plone is dying"
17:25:14  <planetmaker> is it available online?
17:25:46  <andythenorth> dunno
17:26:18  <andythenorth> "plone is dying" is at least a 5 year old thing though
17:26:58  <andythenorth> similar set of community issues, similar commitment o doing things right from core team
17:27:43  <andythenorth> we have been talking about it, hence it made my day to see "openttd is dying" ;)
17:28:06  <andythenorth> "[insert name here] is dying"
17:29:04  <andythenorth> of course it's fricking dying, there's no free pass from laws of thermodynamics
17:29:12  <planetmaker> :-)
17:29:55  <andythenorth> more interesting is to take it seriously though
17:30:23  <andythenorth> there is a certain min. number of core contributors below which it fails
17:30:30  <andythenorth> or you get Dwarf Fortress :P
17:31:19  <andythenorth> not enough people to code review, help with design problems w
17:31:20  <andythenorth> 
17:31:32  <andythenorth>  = faster entropy
17:31:51  * andythenorth typing one fingered whilst holding child :P
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17:32:49  <planetmaker> we're not there (yet). Though we do have less activity this year than last
17:33:28  <andythenorth> but we also have regular stable releases, GS, zBase, nml etc
17:33:51  <planetmaker> yes. Those commits don't exactly count to the usual count... much activity went there recently
17:34:09  <andythenorth> it is *much* harder for me to get any newgrf features discussed / added
17:34:22  <andythenorth> maybe I spent all my creit :P
17:34:27  <andythenorth> credit *
17:35:18  <andythenorth> but also...we have enough stuff
17:35:34  <andythenorth> most of the suggestions are just "MOAR"
17:37:22  <planetmaker> well. There was a bit amount of NewGRF changes in 1.2.... And which (new) NewGRF changes did you recently bring forward? :-)
17:38:01  <planetmaker> or maybe their complexity is much bigger than your initial suggestions ;-)
17:40:12  <andythenorth> smoke, new docks
17:40:19  <andythenorth> both of those can be made complex
17:40:50  <andythenorth> the prevailing assumption now is 'do it properly to avoid being boxed in in future'
17:41:03  <andythenorth> which is good, but never ships ;)
17:41:37  * FLHerne wants CDist in trunk :D
17:41:57  <FLHerne> works, mostly, and adds muchly to the game :P
17:42:08  * andythenorth biab
17:42:35  <FLHerne> biab?
17:42:44  <Terkhen> back in a bit
17:43:01  * FLHerne needs a big list of weird acronyms and abbreviations :P
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17:43:24  <Terkhen> FLHerne: the problem with both YACD and cargodist (as IIRC there was a cargodist version which worked in top of YACD) is game performance
17:43:29  <Terkhen> on top*
17:44:03  <Terkhen> I don't know the details, but IIRC michi mentioned the problem somewhen at the forums
17:44:16  <Terkhen> I also don't know if that holds true for the standalone implementation of cargodist
17:44:19  <FLHerne> Terkhen: Odd, I have a few pretty big CDist games on my old 2.2GHz PIV ;-)
17:44:59  <FLHerne> YACD seems to attract a lot of those, but I dislike that concept and haven't tried it much :P
17:45:09  <Terkhen> what does "big" means?
17:45:48  <FLHerne> Terkhen: Vehicle numbers of each type into the hundreds, 1k^2 or 2k^2 maps
17:46:09  <FLHerne> Often with 'high' FIRS industries, too
17:46:22  <Terkhen> but in this case the dest/dist related performance decrease is probably tied to increase of node numbers
17:46:53  <FLHerne> Terkhen: You haven't seen one of my stupid networks, have you? :P
17:47:17  <Terkhen> I don't know about the performance problems themselves myself so I can't give you details :)
17:48:19  <FLHerne> Well, whatever they are I seem to have missed them :D
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18:04:18  <andythenorth> iirc YACD recalculates routing for all packets waiting on stations every n ticks
18:04:21  <andythenorth> which is a problem
18:04:25  <andythenorth> it is a battery killer :P
18:04:36  <andythenorth> but that's a specific feature
18:09:26  *** telanus [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:10:12  * andythenorth wonders if we could *remove* features and maintain savegame compatibility
18:11:06  <andythenorth> "Feature: removed a feature"
18:12:55  <planetmaker> yes, that's feasible. But depends a bit on the feature
18:13:45  <planetmaker> e.g. if you remove path signals as feature just treat them as normal block signals. Screws up savegames somewhat, but would still work in a certain way
18:14:52  <andythenorth> he
18:14:55  <andythenorth> trains would crash :)
18:15:05  <andythenorth> anyway, these discussions are fun, but....
18:15:27  <andythenorth> ...a bit navel gazing.
18:15:45  <andythenorth> what can we actually commit?
18:15:51  <supermop> need some lunch but cant leave here
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18:16:22  <planetmaker> we also already removed features. Path signals were once removed. Flipping all engines independent of their newgrf specs was removed. Certainly other things, too ;-)
18:16:27  <NGC3982> Poop.
18:16:35  <Wolf01> evenink
18:16:37  <planetmaker> But we call that cleanup or so ;-)
18:16:52  <supermop> can you remove coal mines as a feature?
18:17:01  <supermop> sure no one would notice
18:17:14  * planetmaker would. It's the default starting industry for me
18:17:29  <planetmaker> but feasible. Could all be displayed as power plants
18:17:33  <Wolf01> forests for me
18:17:56  <planetmaker> will I now be quoted on "pm wants to remove coal mines from openttd"? :D
18:17:58  <andythenorth> planetmaker: we could remove some FIRS snow tickets.  By marking them 'done' ;)
18:18:05  <supermop> haha
18:18:33  <supermop> i've been strying a steel valley goal game
18:19:35  <supermop> unfortunately i have only 3 years left, there are only two iron ore mines on the map, and both produce around 30 tonnes despite having two stations with a vehicle always loading at each
18:20:02  <planetmaker> :-)
18:20:05  <planetmaker> Fund industries
18:20:06  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Can I add a pile of 32bppEZ tickets? :D
18:20:23  <supermop> cant afford to build more mines
18:20:24  <planetmaker> We won our games by vigorously funding industries
18:20:41  <andythenorth> supermop: you need a money maker first, probably pax
18:20:41  <planetmaker> doesn't hte GS take care of cheap industry costs?
18:20:46  <andythenorth> nope
18:20:46  <supermop> i could build one mine in the three years if i am lucky
18:20:52  <andythenorth> GS has no capability there :P
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18:21:02  <planetmaker> and yes, what andy says. We always built a money maker first
18:21:17  <supermop> yeah, i have an aggressive passenger, coal and oil network to build up money
18:21:22  * andythenorth would badly like a clean interface between GS and newgrf :(
18:21:30  <andythenorth> but that discussion never gets anywhere :(
18:22:09  <planetmaker> spec it
18:22:12  <andythenorth> tried
18:22:14  <andythenorth> not smart enough :(
18:22:30  <andythenorth> I have limitations :P
18:22:46  <planetmaker> wiki pages like frosch's pages on the "utopian" stuff are quite useful in this resepct
18:23:12  <supermop> can gs work with firs?
18:23:25  <andythenorth> yesbutnobut
18:24:10  <andythenorth> I think GS is the single biggest win for the game in several years
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18:24:19  <andythenorth> despite being a bit 'meh' about it initially
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18:24:49  <supermop> its awesome
18:25:09  <andythenorth> means we can talk about stuff like gameplay and strategy
18:25:16  <supermop> but you cant count on it for making a quick 128^2 map fun
18:25:23  <andythenorth> and not just 'I need feature xyz to make my perfect model train set'
18:25:56  <supermop> because you won't have enough some primary industry
18:26:28  <andythenorth> I would write a GS if I didn't already have lots of newgrf started...
18:26:54  <supermop> i just want a gs that makes power plants worth something
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18:27:21  <andythenorth> you could write one
18:27:30  <andythenorth> it would be tied to specific industry ID and quite fragile
18:27:36  <andythenorth> afaik
18:27:51  <andythenorth> what do you want?  Town growth if coal delivered?
18:28:10  <andythenorth> I had one idea called The Grid or something
18:28:29  <andythenorth> 5 towns want power plants *constructed* and supplied with x tonnes per year
18:29:29  <andythenorth> it's just another cargo delivery challenge though :P
18:29:44  <Zuu> supermop: GS can make powerplants worth something.
18:30:02  <Zuu> Eg. play NoCarGoal or Silicon Valley with coal as goal cargo.
18:31:29  <supermop> growth or industry boost would be nice, but the latter sounds impossible
18:31:41  <andythenorth> not impossible
18:31:42  <andythenorth> just totally lacking a spec
18:32:01  <supermop> does the gs just check nearby plants for coal delivered then build a house?
18:32:15  <andythenorth> it tells the town to grow
18:32:18  <andythenorth> the town then handles that
18:32:22  <andythenorth> unless the newgrf fucks with it :P
18:32:37  <Zuu> a GS can monitor any industry for delivery and/or pickup of a specific cargo.
18:32:51  <supermop> would it be confused by a Firs steel mill receiving coal in the towns borders?
18:32:54  <andythenorth> yes
18:32:56  <andythenorth> what it can't do is adjust production at the industry
18:33:06  <andythenorth> nor meaningfully check for specific newgrf (afaik)
18:33:13  <Zuu> A GS can also monitor towns for delivery/pickup.
18:33:20  <andythenorth> nor understand the general idea of industry 'types'
18:33:27  <supermop> that is growing a town because a steel mill received coal instead of a power plant
18:33:45  <andythenorth> yes, that would likely happen
18:33:49  <Zuu> NoCarGoal monitor all towns for delivery of all (goal) cargoes.
18:34:13  <Pinkbeast> I thought NoCarGoal was my utopian vision of transport. :-)
18:35:11  <Knogle> Zuu: I guess it doesn't work with 1.2.2 then?
18:35:20  <Zuu> Knogle: Nope
18:35:43  <Zuu> Both NoCarGoal and Silicon Valley needs a nightly as both use this monitor feature.
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18:43:07  <Zuu> However, that didn't stop us from having several interesting games on the #openttdcoop nightly server with those two GSs.
18:46:56  <Knogle> :)
18:47:25  <andythenorth> both those GS rock
19:02:18  <supermop> would it be bad form to define a cargo via newgrf that intentionally cannot be carried?
19:02:57  <frosch123> like "regearing"? :)
19:05:28  <Elukka> the problem is it breaks full load