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Log for #openttd on 11th November 2012:
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01:15:49  <Kylie|2> so uh
01:16:03  <Kylie|2> im having th2s network issue which can be seen at http://imgur.com/Qmxf4
01:17:14  <Kylie|2> train #27 cannot move
01:18:06  <Kylie|2> #27 is going to the station after the bridge at the lower right corner of the pic
01:18:33  <Kylie|2> turned around to go there
01:18:49  <Eddi|zuHause> hit the ignore signal button and stop it before it hits the other train
01:19:25  <MNIM> Your station misses exit signals.
01:19:29  <Eddi|zuHause> and then forbid 90° turns and/or make the distance between junctions longer
01:20:12  <Eddi|zuHause> if it's a dead end station it doesn't matter
01:20:24  <Kylie|2> its a dead end station yes
01:21:43  <Kylie|2> and what do you mean by distance between junctions?
01:21:44  <MNIM> how so?
01:22:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Kylie|2: well your train is longer than the distance from the top junction to the left junction, that is why your trains are stuck
01:22:39  <Kylie|2> ah
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01:23:05  <Eddi|zuHause> if it was one tile longer, it would fit exactly, and this lockup can't happen
01:23:32  <Kylie|2> i just checked, and you're right
01:24:09  <Eddi|zuHause> and the tunnel is unnecessary, but that is besides the point...
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01:32:36  <Kylie|2> yup, Eddi|zuHause, i removed it already :)
01:34:10  <Eddi|zuHause> alternatively, make the tunnel one tile longer, and move the upwards track over the tunnel
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02:42:05  <drac_boy> hi
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02:54:36  <Nat_as> I finaly found an OS that makes my netbook usefull
02:55:00  <drac_boy> considering its only a cpu and wifi .. any os would had done anyway :P
02:55:04  <drac_boy> heh
02:55:06  <Nat_as> Linix mint is amazing, it's like Ubuntu before canonical decided the future was mobile devices
02:55:08  <Nat_as> no
02:55:14  <Nat_as> it started with win7
02:55:26  <Nat_as> but that ran really slow on the mobile cpu
02:55:32  <Nat_as> and then I tried ubuntu
02:55:43  <Nat_as> but that didn't support the drivers for the touchscreen
02:55:53  <Nat_as> I also tried Jolicloud
02:55:58  <Nat_as> same story
02:56:09  <Nat_as> Linix Mint was the first one that worked out of the box
02:56:21  * drac_boy only uses slackware or sourcemage alone for anything tho
02:56:25  <drac_boy> ^_^
02:57:36  <Nat_as> I'm really pissed that Microsoft and Canonical are doing the same thing right now though
02:57:57  <Nat_as> ie, forcing a mobile optomised UI down everyone's throats
02:58:07  <Nat_as> because somebody told them the future was mobile devices
03:01:04  <drac_boy> Nat_as the usual problem is .. mobile != work in some cases
03:01:45  <drac_boy> try do your spreadsheet daily on a small touchscreen alone .. I'll imagine its not so good
03:01:56  <Nat_as> yes, among other things
03:02:21  <Nat_as> but there is a whole generation of execs who see that PC sales are slowing down, while smartphone and tablet sales are increasing
03:02:30  <Nat_as> and mistakenly assume that mobile devices will replace the PC
03:02:33  <Nat_as> but that's bullshit
03:02:34  <drac_boy> "slowing down" != wiping out
03:02:37  <drac_boy> heh heh
03:02:46  <drac_boy> looks like two of us could keep talking about this forever :P
03:02:51  <drac_boy> sadly...I'm going to bed soon ;)
03:02:59  <Nat_as> because PCs are reaching market saturation, everyone who wants one, already has one
03:03:16  <Nat_as> while mobile devices are new, and thus have room for market growth
03:03:21  <Nat_as> they aren't the same thing damnit
03:08:04  <drac_boy> just wondering anyway, do you have a dream laptop you would had liked?
03:08:57  <Nat_as> I have the laptop I wanted to buy for my Priamary, and my secondary, which I am typing on right now, is finaly the laptop I wanted it to be after two years of being useless
03:09:10  <drac_boy> heh
03:09:14  <Nat_as> there is a new dream laptop i have in mind, but it dosn't really exist
03:09:25  <Nat_as> it's like the macbook air, except not crapple
03:09:27  <Nat_as> :p
03:09:44  <drac_boy> well for me there is a specific cpu/gpu/screen I want plus a few minor details .... still waiting :)
03:09:47  <drac_boy> you want hear it? heh
03:10:02  <Nat_as> Ultrabooks aren't really ready yet imo, at least not in my price range
03:10:03  <Nat_as> and sure
03:12:59  <drac_boy> intel i5 3427U .... Geforce GT 625M (or if thats still too new for you to design then 620M it is) ... any 1440x900 14-15" matte display ... ricoh chipset for ilink+cardbus .. no preference on wiif chip .. a centered touchpad (and I don't care whatever you say...it used to be done countless times before jeeze)
03:13:04  <drac_boy> :p
03:13:24  <drac_boy> and yeah thats an ivy bridge cpu
03:13:36  <Nat_as> centered touchpand and numpad?
03:13:51  <Nat_as> because having a numbpad usualy means the touchpad is offset
03:14:01  * drac_boy points to Fn+numpad
03:14:01  <Nat_as> because hardware makers hate you apparently
03:14:05  <Nat_as> oh
03:14:10  <Nat_as> i like numpads
03:14:16  <Nat_as> they are good with widescreen
03:14:21  <Nat_as> but probably bad for portability
03:14:38  <drac_boy> well numpads don't really have a place without having to use a mouse in first place due to disabling the touchpad .. its a moot point ... better to leave it off
03:15:51  <drac_boy> but either way .. yeah ... not asking for a lot in my dream laptop pretty much :)
03:17:11  <Nat_as> is windows 8 really as bad as they say?
03:17:28  <Nat_as> can you like, get a classic interface back?
03:17:34  <drac_boy> no idea...haven't seen it in stores to try a single copy yet ... still wondering if it'l really be 0 as they quoted
03:19:24  <drac_boy> anyway going to bed now, see you another time ok? :)
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04:28:20  <Kylie|2> hmm
04:28:25  <Kylie|2> i had a question
04:28:28  <Kylie|2> is there a way
04:28:38  <Kylie|2> apart from create stn area
04:28:42  <Kylie|2> to see the  uh
04:28:47  <Kylie|2> boundaries of the stn
04:28:55  <Kylie|2> where cargo is collected from
04:29:10  <Kylie|2> i dont want to have to use that area over and over again
04:31:44  <Kylie|2> er
04:31:50  <Kylie|2> so im asking
04:31:59  <Kylie|2> how dfo i view a station's catchment area
04:34:19  <Kylie|2> ?
04:34:23  <Kylie|2> anyone here
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05:13:46  <Flygon> Kylie|2: I just do it by getting the station prompt up, and holding the "new" station over the pre-existing station, but not actually buildingn
05:14:22  <Kylie|2> Flygon: i was wondering re different way
05:14:37  <Flygon> Ah
05:14:41  <Flygon> I agree it'd be nice
05:20:24  <Flygon> Hmm
05:20:35  <Flygon> I really begin to think I did something wrong with this heightmap
05:21:16  <Flygon> Sure, it's on the right angle, but I think I somehow buggered the aspect ratio...
05:25:02  <Flygon> Either way, it's a monstorously boring heighmap... Victoria is too flat
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06:28:39  <Rubidium> Flygon: if the heightmap goes from 0 to max in a few pixels, the hills and valleys get smoothed out significantly. Especially with real mountainous areas that are zoomed out far
06:39:20  <Flygon> Ribidium: I actually mean the... landscape
06:39:21  <Flygon> Uuh
06:39:23  <Flygon> Hard to explain
06:39:29  <Flygon> Get the Victoria map off Banana's
06:39:38  <Flygon> I submitted it over a month ago
06:39:52  <Flygon> I've actually improved my heightmap technique since...
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07:24:11  <andythenorth> bonjour
07:26:02  <Rubidium> bonjour monsieur andy
07:29:44  <peter1138> ah oui oui
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08:32:09  <Alberth> moin
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08:42:49  <Wolf01> hello
08:44:48  <Alberth> o/ Wolf01
08:51:32  <peter1138> waaa, still no pi :-(
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11:22:08  <LordAro> hai all
11:24:08  <Alberth> that's only a few people :)
11:24:54  <Eddi|zuHause> the joke goes "hai!" - "wo?"
11:25:24  <Flygon> Hai
11:25:26  * LordAro points at Alberth for the origins of me using it :L
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11:29:50  * Alberth fails to understand the disucssion completely
11:30:35  <LordAro> ^
11:30:44  <LordAro> :P
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12:26:25  <andythenorth> lo
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12:42:25  <Flygon> lo
12:51:17  <andythenorth> ho ho, this ticket blocks a FIRS release http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/4232
12:51:30  <andythenorth> current behaviour wrt 2 parameters is legacy
12:51:32  <andythenorth> and broken
12:51:44  * andythenorth lacks inspiration for best solution though :)
12:55:23  <Rubidium> andythenorth: those who are against closing industries are also against (un)expected production changes as it messes up their network. So better just make primary industries that are not allowed to close produce at max capacity
12:55:59  <andythenorth> 10,000t output everywhere? o_O
12:56:14  <andythenorth> or are you being serious and saying 'no decreases'? :)
12:56:56  <Rubidium> I'm somewhat serious ;)
12:57:33  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24695 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2012-11-11 12:57:27 UTC)
12:57:34  <DorpsGek> -Fix/Cleanup: Remove remaining (incorrect) usages of ResolverObject::scope and count.
12:59:11  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'd say make it "no decrease"
12:59:12  <frosch123> i guess only two levels: either supplies or no supplies :p
13:02:44  <andythenorth> I am thinking bool: 'default behaviour' or 'FIRS behaviour'
13:03:03  <frosch123> excellent descriptions :p
13:03:06  <andythenorth> no option for 'decrease but not closure'
13:05:14  <andythenorth> frosch123: can you improve those descriptions? :D
13:05:42  <frosch123> sorry, did not follow the conversation
13:09:32  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: two parameters: "primary industries can close", "secondary industries can close"
13:09:40  <Eddi|zuHause> primary: off: "primary industries never decrease production, but only increase when supplies are delivered regularly"; on: "primary industries may decrease production or close, but chances are lower when supplies are delivered regularly"
13:10:10  <Eddi|zuHause> secondary: off: "secondary industries never close", on: "secondary industries can close if they are not serviced for some time"
13:11:59  <frosch123> i thought supplies only boost the production for a short time
13:12:02  <frosch123> not permanently
13:12:11  <Eddi|zuHause> no, that was ECS :)
13:12:16  <frosch123> or was that already reverted agan?
13:12:33  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the last game i played with firs (it was a M version) iirc did that
13:12:42  <andythenorth> supples only boost production for a short time
13:12:55  <Eddi|zuHause> ok... sounds bad
13:12:59  <Eddi|zuHause> whatever
13:13:21  <andythenorth> it's better than previous mechanic, but still has issues
13:14:36  <frosch123> anyway, i recommend to not implement anything that triggers 5 years after construction/game start
13:14:45  <andythenorth> :P
13:14:50  <andythenorth> you think that has issues?
13:15:01  <frosch123> but rather something which triggers on average every 10 or 50 years, no matter how old the thing is
13:15:13  <andythenorth> I am not going to implement any closure for primaries
13:15:17  <andythenorth> just use default behaviour
13:15:19  <Eddi|zuHause> one idea was: the industry checks whether the associated town has at least one company rating
13:15:29  <Eddi|zuHause> then the countdown will be triggered
13:15:38  <andythenorth> maybe I should remove the FIRS code for secondary closure too....
13:15:45  <frosch123> andythenorth: i read too many disussions like "all industries close at once" -> "ok, i increase the limit to at least 10 years" -> "oh, why do they all close at once after 10 years" :p
13:16:03  <andythenorth> I spent too many weekends writing code to try and solve that :P
13:16:16  <andythenorth> the code writing is short; running the tests is not :P
13:16:36  <frosch123> anyway, i still like this idea for primaries: only two production levels depending on supplies. closure on average after 50 years, independent of serviceing
13:16:52  <Eddi|zuHause> the industry has the town as associated object, right? so you only need a variable that can read the town's company ratings
13:17:02  <andythenorth> closure after 50 years will cause much howling and wailing
13:17:19  <andythenorth> it will ruin all the self-regulating, super-maglev networks
13:17:39  <frosch123> well, then make a option "closure after 50 years"/"never closure"
13:17:43  * andythenorth considers no parameters for this at all
13:17:56  <andythenorth> how about FIRS just uses default mechanic from OTTD?
13:18:06  <Eddi|zuHause> that would be silly
13:18:07  <frosch123> also not "after 50 years", but "in average every 50 years"
13:18:24  <frosch123> andythenorth: that is always a good option :)
13:18:28  <frosch123> blames other people :p
13:18:35  <andythenorth> implement NoConomy
13:18:46  <andythenorth> or wait for Zuu to figure out giving GS control over this
13:18:53  <andythenorth> newgrf sucks at solving this :)
13:21:40  <andythenorth> Primary Industry Production Changes: Allow all changes | Change only with supplies
13:22:41  <andythenorth> or just a bool: Allow Primary Production Changes
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13:22:57  <Eddi|zuHause> town var 9E+(0..15) should be the company ratings
13:23:24  <Eddi|zuHause> or town war AE is a bitmask
13:23:31  <Eddi|zuHause> that should be the correct value
13:27:26  <Eddi|zuHause>                 case 0xAE: return t->have_ratings;
13:27:31  <Eddi|zuHause> seems to be implemented :)
13:29:11  <Eddi|zuHause> so, on industry construction, initialize a counter with a random value (average at 5*12=60), on monthly callback, check whether town var AE has non-zero value, if yes, decrease the counter
13:29:36  <Eddi|zuHause> if counter is zero, check some "is serviced" value, and close the industry if not
13:30:37  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: does that sound plausible?
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13:47:52  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so if someone is servicing anything in the town, industry is preserved?
13:48:10  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the opposite
13:48:19  <Eddi|zuHause> if no player is serving the town, nothing happens
13:48:38  <Eddi|zuHause> which prevents vast areas of the map to be cleaned out before the player can get to them
13:49:02  <Eddi|zuHause> when a player enters the area, he has 3-7 years to connect all industries in that area
13:49:06  <andythenorth> ah
13:49:13  <andythenorth> that could be quite neat
13:52:25  <MNIM> Hmmmh, speaking of industries and servicing.
13:53:04  <MNIM> if you've got one station that services two industries which both require the same thing, how does it deliver?
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13:53:46  <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: the one closest to the station sign gets all
13:53:52  <MNIM> ah.
13:54:51  <Terkhen> hello
13:54:56  <andythenorth> lo Terkhen
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14:06:10  <andythenorth> hmm
14:06:30  <andythenorth> which production change cbs do I have to handle to get 'default' behaviour?
14:06:32  <andythenorth> random only?
14:06:36  <andythenorth> or random and monthly?
14:07:08  <frosch123> for default behaviour you shouldn't handle any :p
14:07:17  <andythenorth> I have to:(
14:07:30  <frosch123> well, only random then
14:07:34  <andythenorth> good :)
14:07:57  <frosch123> but that will disable "smooth economy"
14:08:02  <frosch123> so it is not really "default"
14:08:03  <andythenorth> oh
14:08:06  <andythenorth> poop
14:08:07  <Eddi|zuHause> don't worry about "default" at all, just make one version with closure and one without
14:08:25  <frosch123> andythenorth: why do you have to?
14:08:26  <andythenorth> really?
14:08:38  <andythenorth> frosch123: because I need to be able to disable 'default'
14:08:57  <andythenorth> I'm wondering if this is all bogus tbh
14:09:00  <frosch123> well, then put an "if" around the callback at top leel
14:09:08  <frosch123> maybe nml is clever enough to not enable the callback then
14:09:28  <andythenorth> maybe I can skip a graphics block
14:09:45  <andythenorth> I'm adding this for a mythical use case that no-one has asked for iirc
14:09:55  <andythenorth> maybe I just delete it :P
14:10:48  <andythenorth> actually that seems best
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14:14:39  <andythenorth> problem solved :)
14:14:40  <andythenorth> no closure
14:14:52  <andythenorth> dunno what that does for GS compatibility o_O
14:19:53  <MNIM> Urgh. why does the caps lock key exist?
14:20:11  <MNIM> most useless key ever.
14:20:29  <Rubidium> MNIM: well... I use it to write your nick
14:20:54  <MNIM> They should just split up all that useless space between the tab key and lshift.
14:21:05  <MNIM> rubidium: mn+tab
14:21:59  <MNIM> Or, if your client doesn't do that, you've got two hands, so your left pinky can be used for the shift like it should be doing already for capitalization anyway.
14:22:07  <MNIM> ...well, Im assuming you have two hands.
14:22:30  <Eddi|zuHause> you're also assuming that he does capitalisation :p
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14:23:18  <frosch123> MNIM: capslock is excellent for mapping to compose
14:23:29  <andythenorth> hmm
14:23:41  <Rubidium> MNIM: my phone doesn't have a tab
14:23:50  <andythenorth> we've discussed GS and newgrf industry
14:24:09  <andythenorth> GS should just be able to over-ride industry production and closure imo
14:24:18  <MNIM> Eddi: no, I said 'should' :P I'm a sinner against capitalization too, for that matter
14:24:35  * MNIM adds a . after 'should'
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14:26:55  <drac_boy> hi
14:27:10  <drac_boy> hmm no nat_as .. oh well :p
14:28:44  <andythenorth> 2 fewer parameters in FIRS :)
14:28:51  * andythenorth likes fewer parameters
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14:30:59  <rknol> hello
14:31:07  <rknol> anyone here have any experience compiling openttd on freebsd9?
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14:31:55  <rknol> been having a go at it but got stuck at where it can't use liblzma.a (even though it's present on my system)
14:32:14  <Rubidium> is pkgconfig installed?
14:32:41  <rknol> yes
14:33:06  <Rubidium> what does pkg-config liblzma --modversion result in?
14:33:45  <rknol> [root@freebsd0 /usr/local/lib]# pkg-config liblzma --modversion
14:33:46  <rknol> Package liblzma was not found in the pkg-config search path.
14:33:47  <rknol> Perhaps you should add the directory containing `liblzma.pc'
14:33:48  <rknol> to the PKG_CONFIG_PATH environment variable
14:33:49  <rknol> No package 'liblzma' found
14:34:05  <rknol> PKG_CONFIG_PATH is empty
14:34:19  <andythenorth> deprecating a string in multiple languages is very tedious
14:34:25  <Rubidium> solve that issue and OpenTTD's configure will find it
14:34:31  <andythenorth> open file, delete strings, save, close, repeat :P
14:34:39  <MNIM> http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=fvwp&v=V_Qo4a_3IeQ
14:34:40  <MNIM> oh dear
14:34:40  <glx> use a script
14:34:41  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: sed -i?
14:34:53  <andythenorth> probably
14:35:00  <andythenorth> I need to learn sed
14:35:13  <glx> and don't forget unfinished
14:35:36  <Eddi|zuHause> sed -i /STR_NAME.*$// *.lng
14:35:47  <andythenorth> let's see
14:35:50  <Eddi|zuHause> or something
14:35:51  <frosch123> that results in empty lines
14:35:56  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
14:36:02  <Eddi|zuHause> but whatever :)
14:36:08  <frosch123> sed -i "/STR_NAME/ D" *.lng
14:36:16  <andythenorth> eddi's fails on *.lng
14:36:18  <andythenorth> ;)
14:36:22  <andythenorth> invalid command code
14:36:29  <Eddi|zuHause> oh
14:36:34  <Eddi|zuHause> yes add "s"
14:36:39  <frosch123> andythenorth: eddis code was malicious btw :p
14:36:51  <Eddi|zuHause> probably :)
14:36:53  <andythenorth> I always paste and run untrusted code :)
14:36:56  <andythenorth> it's more fun
14:37:02  <andythenorth> especially with a lot of uncommitted changes on hand
14:38:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not an expert in sed either :)
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14:38:29  <frosch123> everyone who loves turing machines should love sed
14:38:45  <tycoondemon> turing machines are awesome
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14:38:46  <frosch123> everyone else should love awk
14:38:55  * andythenorth probably loves awk
14:38:57  <Eddi|zuHause> that is a totally different question :)
14:39:05  <andythenorth> sometimes I love writing a python script to do it :P
14:39:40  <rknol> Rubidium: got it!
14:39:52  <rknol> had to use the liblzma.pc from /usr/ports/games/openttd/files
14:40:12  <rknol> now ran into another problem
14:40:22  <rknol> [SRC] Compiling crashlog.cpp
14:40:24  <frosch123> andythenorth: yeah, "i don't know the best language for this task, so i use the one that i know" is quite popular :p
14:40:25  <rknol> ouch
14:40:36  <andythenorth> learning is hard
14:40:38  <rknol>  /root/ottd/openttd-1.2.3/src/crashlog.cpp:191:23: error: lzo/lzo1x.h: No such file or directory
14:40:39  <frosch123> though the older guys usually use perl
14:40:45  <andythenorth> learning is counter to getting things done :P
14:41:01  <andythenorth> although there is a certain bootstrap step that is essential :P
14:41:06  <frosch123> it's like "age > 40 ? use perl : use python"
14:41:24  <frosch123> no idea why, just an observation
14:41:58  <andythenorth> ('python', 'perl')[self.age > 40]
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14:42:49  <Rubidium> rknol: interesting... it should've found that file during configure
14:43:05  <andythenorth> is age a property, or a method call?
14:43:15  <Rubidium> though you likely won't notice it when you compile without lzo (./configure --without-lzo2)
14:43:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i've had this weird bug in pascal ages ago, where i used a ord(boolean) value as array index, and it always returned 0 or 1, except for the very last loop, where it sometimes returned 10
14:44:01  <rknol> ok
14:44:06  <Rubidium> rknol: having said that, doesn't the one from their 'ports' (or whatever it's called exactly) sit work?
14:44:06  <rknol> configured it to not use lzo2
14:44:20  <rknol> well, i don't dare to attempt to upgrade my ports tree
14:44:23  <rknol> so it's 1.13
14:44:27  <andythenorth> right, let's see who yells that I've removed some FIRS parameters :)
14:44:38  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: usually a cached result of date() - self.birthday
14:44:48  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what if it's a duck?
14:44:52  <andythenorth> are duck years different?
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14:45:10  <andythenorth> making it a method allows for expressing it in different units :P
14:45:11  <Eddi|zuHause> is that like dog years? :)
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14:45:17  <andythenorth> do dogs quack?
14:45:24  <Eddi|zuHause> rarely
14:45:35  <andythenorth> if they do, you could probably treat them like a duck
14:45:51  <andythenorth> hmm
14:45:59  <andythenorth> afaik, there's nothing blocking a FIRS release now
14:46:15  <Eddi|zuHause> with un-done economies?
14:46:19  <andythenorth> oh yes
14:46:20  <andythenorth> that :(
14:46:26  <andythenorth> well that's just configuration :)
14:46:35  <andythenorth> anyone could do that... o_O
14:46:59  <drac_boy> heh heh
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14:47:17  <Eddi|zuHause> well, then remove the economy parameter, make a release with only the FIRS economy, and then start doing economies
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14:47:33  <andythenorth> point
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14:48:33  <andythenorth> DanMacK suggested these... http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3362/PossibleBasicSchemes.png
14:49:38  <Rubidium> andythenorth: the most important one... toyland... is missing
14:49:47  <frosch123> lol, livestocks are delivered to a packaging plant?
14:49:53  <frosch123> are they packaged as a whole?
14:50:06  <drac_boy> andythenorth why no non-food chains for steel btw?
14:50:08  <andythenorth> packing plant = slaughterhouse in US ;)
14:51:04  <andythenorth> drac_boy: what are you talking about?
14:51:13  <andythenorth> Rubidium: add Toyland :)
14:51:28  <drac_boy> I can't see where to send the steel output to when theres no line heading directly or indirectly to town?
14:51:52  <Rubidium> andythenorth: I already told you how that should look ;)
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14:52:20  <Rubidium> with the blender and stuff ;)
14:52:40  <andythenorth> lol
14:52:56  <andythenorth> drac_boy: propose your own, I'm not designing economies right now, I have zero interest in them
14:53:20  <andythenorth> I just want to implement some basic ones and get that off my plate
14:53:27  <drac_boy> just reuse what the original and grf industries have always done... metal becomes goods :)
14:53:48  <drac_boy> but otherwise..the other chains and other climates actually look decent so far
14:53:55  <andythenorth> "FIRS - made lovingly by andythenorth, and not in a grumpy way, with every detail crafted" :P
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14:54:30  <drac_boy> at least you took a page from grf industries and made the refinery output another liquid rather than just goods
14:54:40  <drac_boy> that was the only thing I didn't like about the original refinery after all
14:55:04  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: agricultur economy: "crop rotation": farm output is randomized every year :)
14:55:12  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: interesting :)
14:55:39  <andythenorth> drac_boy: I think Dan has missed that Metal Workshop produces goods
14:55:59  <drac_boy> ahh .. in that case...forget I asked then ... thats good enough for me
14:56:15  <andythenorth> in fact there a few missing links, but tbh drawing cargo chains is hard and mistakes are easy
14:56:24  <drac_boy> ore > steel > mfg > goods > town ... sounds good to me
14:56:44  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: keep metal workshop only making mfg-supplies, but add car factory that takes metal and produces goods?
14:56:55  <drac_boy> yeah .. I've noticed errors with the ECS vector charts too sometimes
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14:57:10  <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause problem is....not everyone want cars? :P heh heh
14:57:15  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I do have a planned chain with car plant + auto parts
14:57:21  <andythenorth> rubber plantation, tire factory
14:57:21  <Eddi|zuHause> danmack's version seems very simplified
14:57:29  <andythenorth> it's 'basic'
14:57:38  <drac_boy> andythenorth rubber plantation? thats taking the page right out of RT2 if you didn't know :p
14:57:44  <andythenorth> 'basic' I have no interest in, but seems desired
14:57:48  <andythenorth> I am more interested in 'not basic'
14:57:49  <andythenorth> :)
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14:57:59  <andythenorth> drac_boy: it's stolen from RT
14:58:02  <drac_boy> for anyone here who doesn't know .. RT2 basically had this chain....
14:58:45  <drac_boy> rubber >> tire factory >> tire cargo .... ore or coal >> steel mill >> steel cargo .... tires + steel >> auto plant >> goods
14:59:00  <drac_boy> andythenorth I should had suspected as much ;)
14:59:00  <andythenorth> rubber -> tire factory -> auto parts
14:59:15  <andythenorth> metal + chemicals -> metal fab plant -> auto parts
14:59:20  <andythenorth> auto parts -> car plant
14:59:48  <drac_boy> at least I liked how RT2's "bonus cargo" system actually worked...eg you could drop off some once in a while but if you kept trying to mass feed it it'll give you very crappy profit for a long time
15:00:02  <drac_boy> too bad neither patch nor ottd can really emulate this behaviour just yet
15:00:14  <andythenorth> they could
15:00:16  <andythenorth> custom profit cb
15:00:18  <andythenorth> and town storage
15:00:25  <drac_boy> oh ok
15:00:27  <andythenorth> just drop the price if too much is delivered
15:00:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm more thinking like "tires", "chassis parts", "engine parts" == assembly plant ==> "cars"
15:00:43  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: dropping some other cargos would permit that
15:00:56  <andythenorth> I'm open to it
15:01:01  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, drop 80% of the agriculture cargos
15:01:04  <drac_boy> andythenorth yeah .. I'm the kind that always like to do small delieveries .. so it would be nice to have a MP game that "scolds" any player who try to set up a massive dump-at-one-station network :)
15:01:05  <Eddi|zuHause> just grain => food
15:01:51  <andythenorth> 'auto parts' also allows glass, plastics etc....
15:01:57  <andythenorth> although they could just be manufacturing supplies, as now
15:02:05  <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause if you want to get serious you could make a whole 'alternative' economy that is nothing but just purely vehicles producing and selling :P  ('selling' as in to town dealers)
15:02:13  <Eddi|zuHause> "chassis parts" would include glass
15:02:24  <drac_boy> there would be a lot of small details to make a very big vector schematic ;)
15:02:27  <andythenorth> body parts in english maybe
15:03:00  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the parts of the car that you see from the outside and that you sit in :)
15:03:05  <andythenorth> yarp
15:03:29  <drac_boy> sand>glass ... rubber>tire ... crude oil>refined oil>plastic>carbody ... cottonfield>seats ... and the list goes on
15:03:50  <andythenorth> deliver them to an auto dealer?
15:04:04  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: you need to do some abstractions
15:04:21  <andythenorth> +1
15:04:25  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: car shops demanding replacement parts?
15:04:41  <andythenorth> maybe
15:05:17  <andythenorth> economies are a PITA
15:05:25  <andythenorth> I can't modify them without breaking savegames
15:05:35  <andythenorth> but I have no way to judge if they're any good without player feedback
15:05:39  <Eddi|zuHause> could be evil with YACD, when you can only deliver a fraction of the parts to the assembly plant to get cars, the others are "wasted" in some town-sink
15:06:15  * andythenorth misses YACD :|
15:06:48  * drac_boy wants network support, programmable signals, and maybe tunnel portal rails damn it :P
15:06:54  <drac_boy> heh heh
15:07:47  <Eddi|zuHause> oh i want lots of things :)
15:07:59  * andythenorth wants to break savegames
15:08:22  <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause well my point really was re ottd being unuseable most of the times due to missing these basics
15:08:24  <drac_boy> but then :)
15:09:06  <drac_boy> andythenorth I'll leave you with that
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15:33:55  <peter1138> i guess by network you don't mean multiplayer...
15:48:39  <drac_boy> sorry yeah I meant that :-s
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16:01:39  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24696 /trunk/src (widget_type.h window_gui.h) (2012-11-11 16:01:34 UTC)
16:01:40  <DorpsGek> -Doc: Improve documentation for button widget types.
16:05:27  <Kylie|2> had a question
16:05:35  <Kylie|2> ho do i find the center of a town
16:05:38  <Kylie|2> downtown
16:06:59  <andythenorth> sign
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16:07:53  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24697 /trunk/src (5 files) (2012-11-11 16:07:46 UTC)
16:07:54  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Use WDF_UNCLICK_BUTTONS instead of duplicating the same functionality.
16:08:54  <Kylie|2> andythenorth:  ? oh wait
16:09:09  <Kylie|2> andythenorth: downtown cloisest to sign?
16:09:14  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24698 trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp (2012-11-11 16:09:08 UTC)
16:09:15  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Use PUSH-buttons when buttons can be pushed.
16:10:16  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24699 /trunk/src (ai/ai_gui.cpp genworld_gui.cpp) (2012-11-11 16:10:11 UTC)
16:10:17  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Proper usage of push and toggle buttons in mapgen and script debug GUI.
16:10:50  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24700 /trunk/src (41 files in 3 dirs) (2012-11-11 16:10:43 UTC)
16:10:51  <DorpsGek> -Cleanup: Remove WDF_UNCLICK_BUTTONS and make it the default.
16:11:30  <andythenorth> Kylie|2: tile under town sign
16:11:33  <andythenorth> iirc
16:11:56  <Kylie|2> andythenorth: nod, thanks
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16:50:17  <andythenorth> frosch123: planetmaker Yexo Hirundo Terkhen Zuu Alberth et al - if I release FIRS 0.8.0, want to try it with new version of NoCarGoal later?
16:50:34  <andythenorth> contains 'basic' economy :P
16:50:45  <Alberth> not tonight, sorry
16:50:46  <frosch123> sure
16:51:42  <frosch123> andythenorth: but we need someone to start the server :)
16:52:14  <andythenorth> Ammler: ^^ :)
16:52:34  * andythenorth wonders whether to use cowardice and do 0.8.0-RC1
16:54:12  <andythenorth> or just wait for the bugs and do 0.8.1 :P
16:56:07  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i still think you should leave out the "basic" economy
16:56:20  <Eddi|zuHause> until economies are somewhat stabilised
16:57:14  <Eddi|zuHause> just remove the parameter from the GUI
16:57:32  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I could do that
16:57:38  <andythenorth> but then how can we test it :(
16:57:52  <andythenorth> unless I do some bananas release
16:58:45  <andythenorth> also my implementation is underly-abstracted :(
16:59:49  <andythenorth> I can't trivially turn an economy off
16:59:53  <Eddi|zuHause> we test it by playing around in alphas, not in releases :)
17:00:00  <Ammler> andythenorth: server is there and ready for your save :-)
17:00:04  <andythenorth> \o/
17:00:23  <Ammler> #openttdcoop.nightly
17:00:28  <andythenorth> it's the same problem as always, no way to distribute 'testing' versions :P
17:00:49  <Ammler> make a release test
17:01:02  <Eddi|zuHause> $someone wanted to add support for testing versions to bananas
17:01:33  <frosch123> aw, so we are playing without the newest newgrf code changes?
17:01:38  <andythenorth> for FISH I've done alphas, compatible with latest ottd nightlies only
17:01:44  <frosch123> it might even run then :p
17:02:09  <Ammler> tag test should not create finger nor symlink LATEST
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17:12:50  <Zuu> andythenorth: I might join in later, but first need to make something for dinner.
17:13:26  * andythenorth is busy until 8pm UK time anyway
17:13:40  <andythenorth> is it ok to get FIRS from bundles server?
17:13:43  <andythenorth> not bananas
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17:15:08  <frosch123> fine for me
17:15:23  <frosch123> it's also a join protection :p
17:16:21  <andythenorth> Zuu: is there an AI that can play NoCarGoal yet? o_O
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17:17:36  <andythenorth> frosch123: I have no inspiration for maps etc, really don't care on dates, only that we have FIRS 0.8.0-test-1 from bundles, and FISH 2 (test version from bananas) :)
17:17:50  <frosch123> i would like a nuts game
17:17:55  <andythenorth> ok, I've never played nuts
17:17:59  <andythenorth> sounds fun
17:18:01  <frosch123> date does not matter for nuts
17:18:17  <frosch123> 1920-2000, any date is fine
17:18:47  <frosch123> so, maybe 1940, so we do not get the very slow trains :)
17:19:01  <andythenorth> sounds fine
17:19:06  <andythenorth> not much HEQS in 1940 :)
17:19:12  <andythenorth> only trams
17:19:33  <frosch123> and disable "engines never expire" :p
17:20:18  <andythenorth> do you want to make a save, or shall I?
17:20:27  <andythenorth> I have 20 mins right now maybe
17:20:30  <frosch123> i can do if you give me the firs link :)
17:20:47  <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/releases/0.8.0-test-1/
17:20:49  <andythenorth> thanks
17:21:04  <andythenorth> just forgot, it's my mum's birthday
17:21:07  * andythenorth -> phone
17:21:08  <andythenorth> :P
17:21:28  <andythenorth> frosch123: don't forget 'basic' economy ;) http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/releases/0.8.0-test-1/test_docs.txt
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17:32:40  <frosch123> andythenorth: so, "basic" or "firs"?
17:32:54  <frosch123> what shall i set the other parameters to?
17:32:54  <andythenorth> basic I reckon :)
17:32:59  <frosch123> closure?
17:33:08  <andythenorth> off
17:33:28  <frosch123> any specific climate?
17:33:31  <frosch123> or it's all the same?
17:33:46  <andythenorth> all the same
17:34:55  <Ammler> why do we zip the tar? That looks kinda unnecessary anymore
17:36:31  <andythenorth> frosch123: might want to set station rating param to 'improved'
17:36:37  <frosch123> done
17:37:55  <frosch123> 7 years? 30k?
17:37:58  <andythenorth> ok
17:38:12  <frosch123> or too easy?
17:38:15  <frosch123> i go for 40k
17:38:27  <andythenorth> there might only be two of us :P
17:38:36  <andythenorth> it can be *really* hard with few players
17:38:48  <frosch123> ij
17:38:50  <frosch123> ok
17:40:00  <DorpsGek> Commit by smatz :: r24701 trunk/config.lib (2012-11-11 17:39:54 UTC)
17:40:01  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5246]: Workaround an overoptimisation done by GCC 4.5
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17:42:20  <frosch123> wood, food, eng supplies?
17:42:33  <andythenorth> harsh but fair
17:45:10  <frosch123> had to remake
17:45:10  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: tar is not compressed.
17:45:19  <frosch123> iron ore, food, building materials?
17:45:46  <andythenorth> also fine
17:45:47  <andythenorth> I don't mind :)
17:46:29  <Zuu> andythenorth: DictatorAI can talk to NoCarGoal. I havn't tested it, but krinn is the author of both DictatorAI and the underlying communication protocol.
17:46:43  <andythenorth> should we include it in our game? :)
17:47:35  <Zuu> I don't know. We could set a low #oopcode count if we want to have it there in the game without risking that it beats us :-p
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17:55:30  <Eddi|zuHause> svn: E155036: Working copy '/mnt/disk2/spiele/OpenTTD/trunk' is too old (format 10, created by Subversion 1.6)
18:01:53  <Rubidium> just upgrade your working copy
18:02:07  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, did that
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18:45:14  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24702 trunk/src/lang/norwegian_bokmal.txt (2012-11-11 18:45:07 UTC)
18:45:15  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:16  <DorpsGek> norwegian_bokmal - 1 changes by jhsoby
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19:10:54  <andythenorth> since when has minimap had blink-on-hover? :o
19:11:02  * andythenorth should read svn log more
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19:25:07  <frosch123> some months ago
19:25:17  <frosch123> firs annoyed me during the gs games :p
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19:29:36  <andythenorth> tree setting is 'basic' ? :o
19:29:43  <andythenorth> seems bikesheddy to me :P
19:30:16  <frosch123> it's the default noob setting :p
19:30:50  <frosch123> "advanced" should be the normal for every non-noob user
19:31:02  <frosch123> "expert" is for people whose name start with v or something
19:31:31  <V453000> im not even sure which tree stuff :D I only remember original/improved from generation settings
19:31:44  <V453000> lol :d
19:31:52  <V453000> ahhh those settings
19:32:06  <V453000> it scared the shit out of me today as I didnt know about the new classing
19:33:07  <andythenorth> why are GS goals not under the 'company performance' menu?
19:33:11  <andythenorth> it puzzles me :)
19:33:38  <frosch123> V453000: you thought we removed all settings? :p
19:33:59  <V453000> well removed/hidden in cfg
19:34:05  <V453000> was my first thought
19:34:51  <V453000> I have read some wtf discussions on forums about how terribly complicated settings are so I almost thought people without brain got their fix
19:35:02  <Rubidium> you should also add a 'god' class where any of the changed settings voids your warranty
19:35:14  <V453000> lol
19:35:16  <Rubidium> like the current cfg only pathfinder stuff
19:35:42  <V453000> you should also add a setting which would prohibit building PBS
19:35:46  <V453000> that would be awesome
19:36:25  <Rubidium> it would be awesome if that settings reverts to default TT behaviour
19:36:37  <V453000> :d
19:36:38  <Rubidium> then it will be awesome
19:36:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: make the "god" setting cfg only, though :)
19:37:08  <Rubidium> good *luck* building a decent network with TT the signal
19:38:09  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: two-way-only with red-as-dead-end? i had a network with unidirectional double track with those signals :)
19:38:15  <V453000> well a game without PBS doesnt really have much to do with TT :)
19:39:01  <Rubidium> if you want a setting to annoy the 'normal' user base, then you are asking for a setting that annoys you as well
19:40:16  <V453000> im not sure what do you mean by that
19:41:26  <andythenorth> anybody joining us for MP FIRS NoCarGo game?
19:41:31  <andythenorth> #openttdcoop.nightly
19:41:36  * andythenorth breaks channel rules
19:52:49  <Rubidium> pff... ancient version of OpenTTD
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20:58:05  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:26:03  <NGC3982> Evening
21:26:19  <NGC3982> Ladies and proletarians.
21:26:43  <Supercheese> No love for the bourgeois?
21:27:50  <NGC3982> Bourgeoisie?
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21:28:47  <Supercheese> My spellchecker said bourgeois... *shrug*
21:28:59  <NGC3982> You seem to be correct.
21:29:04  <NGC3982> And, love for everybody!
21:29:13  <NGC3982> Even the wealthy stratum.
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21:49:23  <Kylie|2> http://i.imgur.com/FVzVe.png # wasnt expecting this outcome
21:49:33  <Kylie|2> i even removed both signals in front
21:49:37  <Kylie|2> same issue
21:49:56  <Kylie|2> er
21:50:14  <Kylie|2> both signals after the first one is what i meant
21:51:26  <frosch123> missing electrification or something like that?
21:52:31  <Zuu> or a stale reservation
21:53:25  <frosch123> reservations are easier to see, when the stations are set to complete transparent, not only shaded
21:53:38  <frosch123> well, it's called invisible i guess
21:54:47  <Eddi|zuHause> try ctrl+x and set "show reservations" in the advanced options
21:55:00  <frosch123> they are already displayed
21:55:08  <frosch123> you can see them under the train
21:55:32  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, and make a screenshot using ctrl+s and disable image conversion by the upload site
21:59:26  <glx> many details are not visible in the image indeed
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22:16:23  <andythenorth> ho
22:16:44  <andythenorth> would town storage permit delivering farm supplies to a town, and farms knowing that?
22:16:54  <andythenorth> i.e. one industry writes to a town register, others can read it?
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22:24:08  <Eddi|zuHause> (answer to andy:) towns store all "town effect" cargos, other storage is probably not sensible
22:25:34  <NGC3982> Kylie|2: Did the issue resolve itself?
22:25:50  <Kylie|2> ah
22:25:52  <Kylie|2> k tx
22:26:01  <Kylie|2> 1 secondq
22:31:20  <Kylie|2> okay
22:31:27  <Kylie|2> it wsas a stale reservation
22:31:36  <Kylie|2> in the station
22:31:46  <Kylie|2> so i just rebuilt the righ side
22:33:39  <NGC3982> What is a "Stale reservation"?
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22:37:19  <frosch123> a bug where a reservation with no associated train remains somewhere on the track
22:37:31  <frosch123> and noone managed yet to write down rules how to reproduce it
22:38:03  <Supercheese> Clearly you need at least one train and at least one junction :P
22:38:09  <frosch123> the one i have heard abuot most, is somewhen when changing tracks around stations
22:39:41  <peter1138> i've had it, but whenever i try to repeat it it always works fine
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22:44:41  <NGC3982> frosch123: I see.
22:44:49  <NGC3982> I have never seen anything like it.
22:51:08  <Terkhen> good night
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