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Log for #openttd on 29th December 2012:
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00:18:29  <andythenorth> bye
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01:17:17  * drac_boy wishes flygon was around
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02:23:30  <drac_boy> hi snail
02:23:40  <Snail> hey there
02:24:34  <drac_boy> how doing?
02:25:02  <Snail> not too bad, thanks
02:25:03  <Snail> you?
02:27:19  <drac_boy> doing ok
02:27:24  <drac_boy> maybe going to bed soon tho :p
02:27:52  <drac_boy> been typing in a lot of data cells for a while now :->
02:28:39  <Snail> database work?
02:30:07  <drac_boy> tracking table for grf :->
02:30:21  <drac_boy> and btw nice "display" screenshot you posted in the french NG train thread :)
02:31:40  <Snail> thanks :)
02:31:47  <drac_boy> the 1975 thing in lower-right makes me thinking the little box is a single-axle railbus luggage trailer
02:31:49  <Snail> hopefully the NG part will get done before next Xmas
02:32:06  <Snail> close enough :p
02:32:14  <drac_boy> heh
02:32:15  <Snail> the set also has them, but not with that railcar
02:32:29  <drac_boy> you want know which railcar is my favorite however? :)
02:32:44  <Snail> sure, what is it?
02:33:02  <drac_boy> its not french sorry... VT133 or a Pig as its often called for its resemblence
02:33:30  <Snail> oh, the one with the "nose" that stores the engine?
02:33:35  <drac_boy> a few were sold originally for narrow gauge too
02:33:40  <drac_boy> yeah .. double end noses indeed
02:33:57  <Snail> yeah I know what you're referring to
02:34:06  <drac_boy> some of them even sported "platforms" to both side of noses as to auger the insufficent rooftop baggage capacity
02:34:17  <Snail> well, the french NG set has the De Dion JM that's even earlier than that :p but single-nosed
02:34:20  <drac_boy> either way I just love them for some reason :)
02:34:35  <drac_boy> driving them probably was not so much fun tho. mechanical transmission
02:34:40  <Snail> yep...
02:34:49  <Snail> those railcars were effectively buses on rails
02:34:51  <drac_boy> snail here's something else to make you scratch your head ever more.....
02:34:52  <Snail> railbuses :D
02:35:42  <Snail> ok tell me
02:36:28  <drac_boy> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Galloping_Goose_4_pre_1950.JPG  old bus .. drop onto new frame .. and a freight box to go on as well ... it was driven by the middle truck (3 trucks yeah) through chains...from the manual transmission
02:36:45  <drac_boy> and don't ask about having to reverse one of these especially through a wye ... talk about neck crinks!
02:37:26  <drac_boy> there was at least six different forms of these in size and seating capacity ... one thing in common tho was it was sooo much cheaper than a standard steam locomotive with only one baggage/coach car
02:37:50  <Snail> :O
02:37:51  <drac_boy> no.4 would had meant it was the 4th model
02:39:04  <Snail> 3 trucks, but how was the articulation made?
02:39:18  <drac_boy> snail well the "road" and rear sections were seperate
02:39:20  <Snail> it looks like the front cab and the rear freight box are stuck together
02:39:37  <drac_boy> ah...the gap inbetween is the articulation part...one moment...
02:40:02  <Snail> ah ok, although the gap seems quite small
02:40:07  <drac_boy> http://drgw.free.fr/RGS/Goose/CRRM-99-054.jpg
02:40:19  <drac_boy> well the "passenger" body is very narrow compared to the wide freight body
02:40:28  <drac_boy> so I imagine it still had space to fit
02:40:53  <drac_boy> btw snail in that second photo you can see where the rear road axle should had been ... the weld job is too visible :P
02:42:19  <Snail> haha that's true
02:42:38  <Snail> it's like the body of a small bus (or a large car) put on top of this thing
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02:42:54  <drac_boy> snail and the cowcatcher always had its purpose. the line often shared land with cattle grounds .. aside to occassional rockslides
02:43:05  <drac_boy> there were almost no fences at all back then
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02:43:20  <drac_boy> such a different life..nowaday cowboys always keep their own cows fenced in
02:44:19  <drac_boy> snail I know its technically a railcar and not railbus but can we complain about the Pacer in uk sharing a lot of road bus components including the turnouts-bouncy suspensions? :)
02:45:02  <Snail> the Pacer? is it a kind of train?
02:45:09  <Snail> all I know by that name is the AMC Pacer :D
02:47:04  <drac_boy> its the name given to class 100 (or was it 101?) dmu
02:47:30  <drac_boy> later ones were designed more as real railcars instead
02:51:59  <drac_boy> snail anyway just how many different french things can you draw already? :P
02:52:16  <Snail> :D
02:52:19  <Snail> 12 more to go
02:52:27  <Snail> actually doing one of them as we speak
02:52:40  <Snail> (that's just for the NG set btw)
02:54:24  <drac_boy> heh :)
02:54:38  <drac_boy> I've been drawing some rough metre gauge sprites but not much to really share yet tho
02:56:30  <Snail> nice! what kind of trains?
02:58:17  <drac_boy> more or less generic although some of them do have a good resemble to real things such as a centercab locomotive with small hoods being alike to the OBB 1'Bo'1 diesel locomotive
02:58:43  <drac_boy> or B'B' mallet that could had looked like any of the Saxon mallets
03:01:40  <Snail> nice :) there were nice mallets in germany and austria
03:03:32  <Snail> although some of the best were Swiss
03:04:05  <drac_boy> snail this is pretty much the thing I modelled it after http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/Wilder_Robert1.jpg
03:04:26  <drac_boy> mind the smoke .. I think its just coming to gripe with the heavy standard gauge wagons around the tight curve
03:04:46  <drac_boy> (you can tell because of how the cab's roof is shadowed
03:06:29  <Snail> hmm
03:06:44  <Snail> looks like it's hauling SG wagons on top of NG tracks
03:06:52  <drac_boy> snail I don't know if french had any name for them but these wagons are on whats called rollenbocks (sorry if I missed a letter or two)
03:07:04  <drac_boy> basically special low open frame wagon that has standard gauge spacings on top
03:07:21  <Snail> yeah :) in france they solved the problem differently... they built dual-gauge tracks :D
03:07:43  <drac_boy> snail there is one unusual thing I did like in france-switzerland tho...
03:07:49  <Snail> on some tracks there were two sets of rails with the same center, so the inner ones were metric (the engine would run on those) and the outer ones were standard
03:08:14  <drac_boy> I keep forgetting the name but it was an all-adhersion railroad that had to go through some good mountains ... they didn't want to use racks .. one man finally solved that by making everything powered, even the freight vans
03:10:30  <Snail> yes, the St-Gervais-Vallorcine railway
03:10:49  <Snail> 3rd-rail powered, all wagons were mounted on powered tracks to maximize TE
03:11:09  <Snail> it's in my set recreating exactly the same concept :p
03:11:12  <peter1138> maker
03:11:16  <peter1138> errr
03:11:42  <drac_boy> snail heh well as I recall reading they eventually found out not the whole train had to be powered all the times
03:11:51  <drac_boy> some coaches did still have 3rd rail shoes just for the sake of electric lights
03:12:06  <Snail> true, some wagons were unpowered
03:12:31  <Snail> that's why, in the set, you can build a consist of all powered wagons, or just some powered and others not (which would be cheaper)
03:13:07  <Snail> all that kind of rolling stock is retired now :(
03:13:17  <drac_boy> heh :)
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03:16:50  <Snail> there's some nice Swiss rolling stock too, running on the Swiss branch of that railroa
03:16:54  <Snail> *railroad
03:19:21  <drac_boy> I'm going to bed anyway .. see you some next time then snail?
03:19:31  <Snail> sure!
03:19:36  <Snail> have a good night
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04:09:32  <Stimrol> hello, is it possible to echoc in a private chat so the server can say something to the user in red color i.e.
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07:35:09  <andythenorth> morning
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07:58:22  <Rubidium> moin
08:05:51  <andythenorth> when dragging large ships to 'scrap' icon in depot, it's hard to see drag point
08:05:59  <andythenorth> causes a lot of failed drops
08:06:04  <andythenorth> for me :)
08:06:21  <Alberth> moin all
08:11:35  * andythenorth is going to be soundly beaten by SV :(
08:11:54  <andythenorth> I have 11m litres / quarter, I need 25m
08:11:57  <andythenorth> of beer
08:14:14  <Alberth> so you're going to have twice as often drunk? :)
08:14:34  <Alberth> or twice as much, of course :p
08:16:25  <Alberth> oh, new chips! very nice andy
08:16:32  <andythenorth> fixed by peter113* :)
08:16:37  <andythenorth> nothing I did ;)
08:17:34  <Pikka> andy: you just need to put a "target" in the middle of the depot icon for the ships
08:18:13  <andythenorth> nice idea
08:19:25  * Alberth extends the thanks to peter
08:20:09  <andythenorth> maybe ships should have the inverse of plane speed factor?
08:31:28  <andythenorth> Pikka: some of the AV8 refits to supplies are interesting wrt capacity
08:31:38  <Pikka> any in particular?
08:32:50  * andythenorth tests
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08:33:35  <andythenorth> Hercules - 40 crates
08:33:49  <andythenorth> seems low
08:33:55  <andythenorth> 737 - 90 crates, seems high
08:34:37  <Pikka> hmm
08:34:42  <andythenorth> Avro RJ takes 45, but Fokker F100 takes 80
08:34:49  <andythenorth> similar pax capacity on the last 2
08:34:59  <Pikka> do you see the pattern?
08:35:21  <andythenorth> prop versus jet?
08:35:34  <Pikka> all-cargo plane vs goods-only plane
08:36:15  <andythenorth> ho ho
08:36:17  <Pikka> the all-cargo planes have a check as to whether the cargo is "industrial" or not, and halve the capacity if so
08:36:17  <andythenorth> of course
08:36:30  <Pikka> the others just assume the cargo is non-industrial
08:36:52  <andythenorth> there are enough planes in the set that it makes no difference to my game
08:36:59  <andythenorth> I can find a good plane for every route
08:37:21  <andythenorth> stuck out as odd though :)
08:37:43  <andythenorth> same issue for S-61 helicopter versus chinook / elvis?
08:37:49  <Pikka> probably
08:38:07  <andythenorth> it actually hurts my game with choppers
08:38:13  <Pikka> well
08:38:14  <andythenorth> can't get enough supplies into rigs
08:38:18  <andythenorth> boats ftw
08:39:14  <Pikka> I could change the "industrial" check so that "express" cargos are not industrial...
08:45:36  <andythenorth> o_O
08:46:51  <Pikka> there, that ought to do it
08:47:20  <Pikka> changed the definition of "industrial" in the nfo from "is bulk, piece or liquid" to "is not pax, mail, express or armoured" :)
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08:51:34  <Pikka> and banana'd
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08:53:47  <Pikka> wat
08:56:48  <andythenorth> yarp
08:57:00  <andythenorth> shame RL habfis vans are slow :P
08:57:53  <andythenorth> my game is filling up with 67s and freightliners
08:58:04  <Pikka> shameful display
08:58:08  <Pikka> where's the 92s?
08:58:15  <andythenorth> ot some of those
08:58:19  <andythenorth> g
08:58:49  <andythenorth> I need a cargo goal GS that encourages lowest cost per ton mile or something
08:59:00  <andythenorth> that would turn gameplay on its head
08:59:21  <andythenorth> little bit nerdy though, no?
09:00:00  <Pikka> I'm sure you could expand on the idea to make it make sense
09:00:31  <andythenorth> we'd need to impose a serious cost premium on high speed freight
09:00:40  <andythenorth> you like costs
09:00:44  <andythenorth> you do it :P
09:00:47  <Pikka> do I?
09:00:50  <andythenorth> he
09:01:11  <andythenorth> parameter: 'fast freight is very expensive'
09:01:30  <andythenorth> might be better done via infrastructure costs
09:01:49  <andythenorth> measure average ton-speed on each tile :P
09:01:54  * andythenorth had better go shopping
09:02:00  <andythenorth> or there will be wife anger
09:02:03  <andythenorth> biab
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09:37:18  <Stimrol> hello, is it possible to echoc in a private chat so the server can say something to the user in red color i.e.
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09:59:21  <Terkhen> good morning
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10:29:54  <peter1138> herpderp
10:30:40  <Alberth> moin
10:35:39  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r24870 trunk/src/base_media_func.h (2012-12-29 10:35:33 UTC)
10:35:40  <DorpsGek> -Change: make the duplicate base set message slightly more verbose, and mention files with wrong md5 checksums or files that are missing explicitly
10:43:53  <planetmaker> he... downloading bananas updates is a whopping 277MByte...
10:44:27  <Rubidium> zBase ;)
10:45:03  <planetmaker> yup :-)
10:45:31  <planetmaker> I'm still tempted to revert the double-sized icons in  zBase to standard size :S
10:47:03  <Rubidium> I'm not against that ;)
10:53:40  <Pikka> moin herpderp
10:56:41  <Flygon> Morning
10:56:46  <planetmaker> moin
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11:02:42  <peter1138> planetmaker, yes please
11:03:11  <peter1138> hmm, an av8 update
11:04:37  <peter1138> actually i don't even use zbase so i dunno why i commented :p
11:04:51  <planetmaker> s/o added the 2x sprites. Not sure I want to piss that person... and not exactly sure how zeph might like it :D
11:05:05  <planetmaker> but it's conceptually wrong to have 2x gui sprites there
11:05:20  <peter1138> yes
11:05:26  <peter1138> should be separate
11:05:33  <planetmaker> ^^
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11:05:59  <drac_boy> hi
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11:08:28  <Pikka> not a huge update, peter1138
11:08:31  * Flygon invites drac_boy to her 'firebox'
11:08:42  <Flygon> If that's not an over the top cumulation, I dunno what is
11:08:44  <Flygon> You called?
11:09:29  <planetmaker> hm. I still can't change blitter ingame?
11:10:24  <planetmaker> I must remember some preliminary quacking then ;-)
11:11:04  <peter1138> can't change bpp either
11:11:31  <planetmaker> well. same thing nearly :-)
11:12:48  <planetmaker> I just noticed that zbase with 8bpp-optimized is ... not different than opengfx :-)
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11:13:40  <planetmaker> hm. and my zbase misses quit a few gui sprites :S
11:14:11  <planetmaker> vehicle icons in main toolbar. few icons in minimap window
11:14:16  <Ammler> you still are not able to go the main homepage (www.o.o) from a subpage like translator.o.o, are you?
11:14:56  <drac_boy> heh heh
11:14:59  <planetmaker> not really conveniently, yes
11:16:01  <Ammler> found one, via contact on the footer :-)
11:17:18  <Ammler> any interesting change for package maintainer since 1.2.3?
11:18:06  <Ammler> I guess, I simply add check changelog.txt to the changes file :-)
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11:32:11  <Alberth> planetmaker:  http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1053641#p1053641   seem to be Zephs thoughts on the zbase gui gfx
11:32:34  <Ammler> beta builds fine on the major rpm distros
11:32:49  <peter1138> i think i might official give up with multi-stop docks ;p
11:33:26  <SpComb> NoDocks
11:34:40  <Ammler> so does ogfx 0.4.6.1
11:34:53  <Pikka> new(air)ports, peter1138?
11:39:55  <peter1138> noes
11:40:01  <peter1138> wasn't someone working on that?
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11:42:02  <Pikka> someone
11:42:07  <Pikka> who knows who
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11:46:18  <Terkhen> yx, there is a repo somewhere
11:50:59  * peter1138 attempts to figure out how yapf works...
11:51:02  <peter1138> or, indeed, compiles
12:09:41  <Pikka> this AI builds trucks going from a stop that provides coal to a stop that accepts coal
12:09:47  <Pikka> unfortunately, they're the same stop
12:09:52  <Pikka> that's logic for you
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12:14:57  <drac_boy> heh
12:16:26  <Terkhen> :D
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12:19:51  <peter1138> nice
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12:45:21  <ZxBiohazardZx> in stations the Callback flags (0b) why do they not contain a flag for "can build bridge over tile"? like Action0 object flags (10) bit 10
12:45:28  <ZxBiohazardZx> eehm 11
12:46:34  <peter1138> cos you can't build bridges over stations
12:46:59  <ZxBiohazardZx> you cant build them because there is no check to see if you can build over it?
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12:47:03  <ZxBiohazardZx> circular reasoning:P
12:47:15  <ZxBiohazardZx> object flags -> station flags (general flags?)
12:47:35  <Rubidium> hasn't anybody made a patch for bridges over stations?
12:47:40  <peter1138> yes
12:47:44  <peter1138> but it doesn't work
12:47:46  <ZxBiohazardZx> ^^
12:47:49  <peter1138> clipping issues
12:48:06  <ZxBiohazardZx> as in sprite fuckups right?
12:48:15  <peter1138> yup, they flicker all over the place
12:48:23  <ZxBiohazardZx> ah k
12:49:17  <peter1138> hey, cool, i managed to get both npf & yapf to make ships circle around not finding the dock ;p
12:49:35  <ZxBiohazardZx> haha
12:49:42  <ZxBiohazardZx> what crazy route did you force them to take
12:49:50  <ZxBiohazardZx> i know if you make a U shape the pathfinders struggle
12:49:53  <ZxBiohazardZx> or a G shape
12:50:10  <peter1138> none, i modified the code
12:50:14  <ZxBiohazardZx> haha
12:50:16  <ZxBiohazardZx> lame
12:50:23  <peter1138> you're welcome
12:50:26  <ZxBiohazardZx> you can trick them with G shape without tricking the code
12:50:42  <peter1138> well it wasn't actually my intention
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12:54:30  <Wolf01> hello :D
12:54:57  <andythenorth> New Airports!
12:55:03  <andythenorth> I had a test version of that once
12:55:23  <andythenorth> y*xo was blocked by some design decision iirc
12:55:27  <andythenorth> can't remember what
12:55:47  <Wolf01> new IP class! I had to reconfigure the whole lan
12:56:14  <peter1138> ?
12:56:16  <andythenorth> don't think it was anything horrible, but then y*xo did nml and other things
12:56:18  <andythenorth> oh and RL :P
12:56:35  <peter1138> IP classes haven't been used for years
12:59:06  <Alberth> andy:  the difference between flying at height 0 and taxiing, but that seems fixable by adding a bit "this path is taxied"
12:59:30  <andythenorth> flying in a helicopter at height 0 is a spooky thing
12:59:40  <andythenorth> did it for a hundred meters or so in Vegas
12:59:45  <andythenorth> very odd
12:59:52  <andythenorth> then it just goes....straight up
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13:04:07  <peter1138> i suppose i should contact my car insurance people
13:04:45  <peter1138> as they sent a letter saying they couldn't take a payment
13:04:47  <peter1138> of £0.00
13:06:15  <andythenorth> bit special
13:06:21  <andythenorth> can't you have your secretary do it?
13:06:22  <Alberth> how useful :)
13:06:25  <andythenorth> man servant?
13:07:47  <peter1138> i'd like Stephen Fry as my valet please
13:08:15  <Rubidium> that's quite interesting ;)
13:08:49  <Pikka> stop that at once
13:10:18  <Pikka> http://www.pikkarail.com/junk/granary.png andythenorth
13:11:31  <peter1138> what we need
13:11:32  <peter1138> is DLC
13:11:38  <peter1138> oh wait, we have it :D
13:13:11  <andythenorth> apparently it's very bad that we do
13:13:16  <andythenorth> according to someone the other day
13:13:20  <andythenorth> either he was smoking crack, or I was
13:13:33  <andythenorth> I don't remember, but that's the nature of the beast
13:13:38  <peter1138> eh?
13:14:04  <Pikka> the way to tell you've been smoking crack is that you can't remember smoking crack?
13:14:06  <andythenorth> somebody popped up here, and declared DLC a sign that OpenTTD is dying
13:14:12  <andythenorth> Pikka: I believe so
13:14:15  <andythenorth> I can't remember
13:14:22  <andythenorth> what is this chart please?
13:14:27  <andythenorth> I refuse to call it graph
13:14:35  <Pikka> you don't have to
13:14:43  <Pikka> it is the maximum production for TaI farms
13:14:57  <andythenorth> organic = don't deliver fertiliser? o_O
13:15:23  <Pikka> I'm pretty sure organic farms still use fertiliser, just organic ones :)
13:15:33  <Pikka> no fertilisers in TaI anyway
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13:15:42  <andythenorth> ah
13:15:54  <andythenorth> thought you had a fertiliser plant that produced from air?
13:15:59  <andythenorth> nvm
13:16:06  <Pikka> I think I did once, but then I didn't
13:16:13  <Pikka> maybe I will
13:16:13  <andythenorth> that happens
13:16:16  <andythenorth> that too
13:16:28  <andythenorth> GM doesn't work out well in pikka-world?
13:16:48  <Pikka> doesn't it?
13:17:10  <Pikka> produces more than anything else.  It'll drop below organic if you keep playing to 2150 or so, but who does that?
13:18:02  <andythenorth> silly andythenorth
13:18:49  <Pikka> anyway, I was writing a whole blog entry about it, but in essence:  TaI industries have an internal economy, and can, if the conditions are right, upgrade themselves at certain times
13:19:02  <andythenorth> how rare :)
13:19:44  <Pikka> like I said yesterday, I'm completely taking over production changes, shutdowns, recessions etc ;)
13:21:18  <Pikka> http://www.pikkarail.com/junk/coalhole.png
13:21:42  <andythenorth> how will you handle shutdowns?
13:21:51  <andythenorth> I tried about 7 times, and got bored of it
13:23:28  <Pikka> at the beginning of each year, industries will "have an agm" and, based on their internal economy level and other factors, lay out a strategy for the year (which might be increasing or decreasing production, doing an upgrade, etc).  if they're in a particularly bad way, their plan might be to shut down, and if their situation hasn't improved by the end of the year, they'll go.
13:23:58  <Pikka> which also means players might have a chance to "save" an industry if they want to
13:25:04  <planetmaker> a year is not much time
13:25:11  <planetmaker> how does saving work?
13:25:26  <Pikka> if their situation has improved after a year, they won't shut down
13:25:34  <planetmaker> what is 'improvement'?
13:25:46  <Pikka> it's complex and I haven't worked it all out yet :P
13:26:40  * planetmaker mumbles game script... ;-)
13:26:46  <Pikka> but it involves how much they've produced and what % shipped, what their estimated resources are if they're a mine, what the global economy is like...
13:26:53  <Pikka> no, not game script
13:27:13  <Pikka> this is the behaviour of individual objects, not the way the player interacts with the game :P
13:28:18  <andythenorth> so if they all choose to close at once....so be it :)
13:28:41  <Alberth> local decisions will always lead to such problems, imho
13:28:56  <andythenorth> it's ok if that's the design
13:29:19  <andythenorth> it's more...realistic ;)
13:29:34  <Pikka> well, my hope is that in normal play they won't close as much as the defaults do, and when they do close it will be more predictable
13:29:45  <Pikka> however, in recessions... anything could happen. ;)
13:29:50  <Alberth> andythenorth: except for some reason it never happens in RL :)
13:30:06  <andythenorth> Alberth: never get a mass wave of closures? :o
13:30:29  <Alberth> never all of them :)
13:30:41  <andythenorth> hmm
13:31:04  <andythenorth> fair point
13:31:32  <andythenorth> although about half of cafes and restaurants have closed in last 4 years here
13:32:48  <peter1138> that's why you introduce charity shops, and have them expect everything to be delivered free
13:32:55  <andythenorth> reminds me
13:33:02  <andythenorth> I have about 7 bags of charity stuff here
13:33:07  <andythenorth> anyone want used baby toys?
13:33:23  <Pikka> the very thing for my used baby!
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13:47:39  <andythenorth> oh good, A380s for grain
13:47:46  <andythenorth> oh noes
13:47:50  <andythenorth> no refit :P
13:47:53  <andythenorth> 747s then
13:49:20  <Pikka> did the patch fix your supplies problem, btw? :)
13:49:26  <Pikka> I didn't actually check it :P
13:49:33  <Rubidium> A225 for grain ;)
13:50:10  <Pikka> no An-225 in av8
13:50:17  <Pikka> nor An-124 neither :}
13:51:08  <andythenorth> hmm
13:51:21  <andythenorth> where's the button for 'update grfs on a running game' :P
13:51:57  <Pikka> I don't know, when I'm updating grfs it's usually by overwriting the old file
13:52:30  <andythenorth> hmm
13:52:40  <andythenorth> the international airport blocks the hangar
13:52:41  <andythenorth> easily
13:52:52  <andythenorth> airports are....intricate
14:00:52  <andythenorth> ho ho
14:00:57  <andythenorth> that ugly train popped up in my game
14:01:18  <Pikka> who?
14:02:00  <andythenorth> powerhaul
14:02:21  <Pikka> oh
14:02:24  <drac_boy> pikka, if you don't mind me asking did you meant to code one in later on or is there any reason for the lack of express mail carriages?
14:02:33  <drac_boy> in ukrs2 btw
14:02:50  <andythenorth> to stop me using them to move beer at 140mph
14:02:53  <andythenorth> of course
14:02:58  <Pikka> naturally
14:03:33  <drac_boy> andythenorth I doubt beer is mail :P
14:03:41  <Pikka> you can put beer in the A380 though
14:03:46  <andythenorth> I may have to
14:04:01  <andythenorth> AV8 seems to be essential for cargo goals with FIRS :P
14:04:15  <Pikka> or perhaps a KC10
14:04:23  <Pikka> beer extender
14:04:26  <andythenorth> FIRS gives all the small-sized jets a purpose :)
14:04:33  <drac_boy> pikka the reason I was wondering about that is because whats the point of allowing the locomotive to carry mail if you can't specify larger capacity?
14:04:50  <andythenorth> because it's amusing
14:05:06  <Pikka> yes
14:05:25  <Pikka> ytrd
14:05:29  <Pikka> also tres
14:05:33  <andythenorth> where would grf be without lol?
14:09:40  *** gombee [~gombee@00019f9f.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
14:09:42  <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3407/breweries.png
14:09:59  <andythenorth> Silicon Valley GS ^ 17 breweries, need to move 25m litres of beer every 3 months :P
14:10:03  <andythenorth> I have 12.5m :(
14:10:26  <Pikka> verdict, you're screwed
14:10:27  <Alberth> oops :)
14:10:32  <V453000> BEER
14:13:23  <andythenorth> yarp
14:13:28  <andythenorth> I'm looking at losing :(
14:13:44  <andythenorth> losing sucks
14:13:51  <andythenorth> I should scrap these mail EMUs for beer
14:13:54  <andythenorth> they load slowly
14:14:02  <V453000> beer is always better in all regards
14:17:24  <Pikka> beertanker canals
14:17:33  <andythenorth> new route type :P
14:17:35  <andythenorth> pipes
14:17:36  <peter1138> hurr
14:19:05  <Pikka> ew
14:19:25  <andythenorth> helicopter logging
14:19:26  <andythenorth> is slow
14:19:28  <andythenorth> and expensive
14:21:00  <andythenorth> anybody thought about some new airports? o_O
14:21:23  <Pikka> yes
14:21:27  <Pikka> frequently :)
14:22:08  <andythenorth> nice idea ;)
14:22:25  <andythenorth> I would like 17 helicopter landing pads, on some mud please
14:22:52  <Pikka> http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=Av8ports_testing
14:23:32  <andythenorth> calls out for an Australian grf
14:23:52  <Flygon> We need a Victoria GRF
14:23:54  <Flygon> Pronto
14:23:58  * andythenorth tries to figure out how to 'deliver' supplies back to a farm by cropduster
14:24:00  <Flygon> Because Victoria is special and unique
14:24:07  <andythenorth> maybe they make their own supplies :P
14:24:13  <Pikka> http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/images/8/8d/Muni1_pv.gif
14:24:14  <Pikka> mebe
14:24:48  <Pikka> http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/images/2/20/Skyliftring_pv.png \o/
14:25:01  <andythenorth> he
14:25:34  <andythenorth> really need some station graphics for grain
14:25:41  <peter1138> wut
14:25:42  <andythenorth> but what? o_O
14:25:48  <Pikka> silos?
14:26:26  <peter1138> av8ports o_O
14:26:34  <Pikka> yes
14:26:37  <andythenorth> silos with the lids off?
14:26:45  <andythenorth> need to see cargo waiting
14:29:33  <V453000> +1
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14:38:11  <andythenorth> the message history is rather...jumpt
14:38:13  <andythenorth> jumpy *
14:38:26  <andythenorth> it's fun to watch all the 'vehicle is lost' messages appear, then be removed
14:38:35  <andythenorth> but it makes clicking on a specifc news item hard :P
14:42:25  <peter1138> heh, and now ships actually stop
14:44:07  <andythenorth> o_O
14:44:46  <Pikka> okay, so where's the server at?
14:45:01  <andythenorth> make it one with no airport restrictions :(
14:45:07  <peter1138> hmm
14:45:08  <andythenorth> noise limits or 2 airports per town :(
14:45:13  <andythenorth> wtf
14:45:25  <andythenorth> I thought the ruling principle was 'thou must do everything in newgrf'
14:45:29  <peter1138> yeah, two docks works, ships pick the nearest
14:45:40  <Pikka> \o/
14:45:48  <andythenorth> limit it to 2 docks per town
14:45:52  <andythenorth> or a noise limit :P
14:45:57  <Pikka> more like
14:45:59  <drac_boy> andythenorth ships are quiet silly :)
14:46:02  * andythenorth considers patching that
14:46:05  <Pikka> one ship at each dock at a time ;)
14:46:16  <andythenorth> 3 ships per dock :)
14:46:19  <andythenorth> or 5
14:46:26  <Pikka> no, 1!
14:46:31  <drac_boy> andythenorth then you'll have to produce a 1x1 sized dock if its only going to be 5
14:46:36  <andythenorth> option
14:46:37  <Pikka> and the rest sit offshore and not all on top of one another
14:46:45  <andythenorth> stupid options :P
14:47:53  <ZxBiohazardZx> multiple docks for same station?
14:47:58  <peter1138> ideally i should make the ships go to the end of the dock
14:47:59  <peter1138> but
14:48:03  <peter1138> i can't figure it out :S
14:49:03  <andythenorth> herp
14:49:06  <Pikka> no andy
14:49:10  * andythenorth looks at losing the game
14:49:19  <Pikka> the ruling principle is "you must do everything in game script"
14:49:30  <Pikka> "even though you can only have one game script at a time"
14:49:39  <andythenorth> that's a new one on me :)
14:50:03  <Pikka> ;)
14:50:24  <andythenorth> seriously I might have to remove this limit of 2 airports
14:50:42  <andythenorth> although it's not going to get me another 12m litres of beer within 1 year :P
14:50:55  <Pikka> true this
14:51:17  <Pikka> hurry up so that peter can start the server :)
14:51:27  <peter1138> wut
14:51:42  <andythenorth> server games don't match baby time :P
14:51:48  <andythenorth> no pause
14:51:53  <Pikka> any time is baby time
14:52:07  <andythenorth> not legally after 7.35pm
14:52:10  <andythenorth> not in my house
14:52:11  <andythenorth> currently
14:52:20  <andythenorth> this is a recent development ;P
14:52:34  <Pikka> hooray
14:52:47  <andythenorth> I should just pause all my final-leg trucks for 12 months
14:52:48  <peter1138> hmm, now, how to direct the pathfinder to the END of the dock instead of the tile that's actually a slope?
14:52:56  <andythenorth> build up 50,000t of grain at the transfer station :P
14:53:02  <andythenorth> then deliver it all
14:53:33  <peter1138> might be simpler to make the stop point to the bit that sticks out
14:53:49  <Pikka> "the bit that sticks out"
14:53:58  <Pikka> this is a technical nautical term
14:53:59  <peter1138> but actually i don't know where it gets the xy from :S
14:54:03  <peter1138> it's all kinda magic
14:54:09  <peter1138> Pikka, yes
14:55:06  <peter1138> 600 lines of patch so far:
14:55:08  <peter1138> :S
14:55:44  <Rubidium> peter1138: dock_tile?
14:55:49  <peter1138> gone
14:57:24  <Rubidium> Ship::GetOrderStationLocation did set the tile in front of the dock_tile
14:58:51  <Rubidium> as the destination of the path finder
15:00:55  <peter1138> yeah but that's gone
15:01:21  <peter1138> trying to figure out multistops
15:01:44  <peter1138> the pathfinder finds the nearest tile that is in a rectangle containing all the stops
15:02:07  <peter1138> this doesn't seem to account for the fact that that tile mayn't be a station tile
15:02:13  <peter1138> but it works anyway
15:03:36  <peter1138> at least, for road vehicles. hmm.
15:04:01  <peter1138> indeed, my ship nows goes to the corner of the rectangle, and then circles :D
15:04:29  <peter1138> i remember at one point multistops were allocated in advance and the stop was used as dest_tile itself
15:04:43  <peter1138> but that was changed at some point, so that dest_tile just points to the station
15:04:57  <peter1138> and i see no reservation, just "is it in use"
15:07:39  <andythenorth> think I'm going to take the easier option with this GS, and lose :P
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15:14:46  <Pikka> good plan andy
15:18:52  <peter1138> hmm, reading pikka's blog at last :p
15:18:59  <peter1138> maintenance costs
15:19:02  <Pikka> ew
15:19:05  <peter1138> did that get fixed?
15:19:21  <Pikka> did what get fixed?
15:19:37  <peter1138> airports used by one aircraft cost the same as airports used by fifty
15:19:49  <Pikka> nope
15:20:02  <Pikka> there's a parameter in av8 to reduce the airport maintanance costs
15:20:06  <peter1138> might be interesting to modify the cost based on number of aircraft taht stop there
15:20:18  <Pikka> sounds like a job for newgrf ;)
15:20:45  <peter1138> not really, it's still unbalanced as you wrote
15:21:14  <peter1138> i built a ship route on a server once
15:21:24  <peter1138> only to find the ships costs several billion to operate
15:21:31  <Pikka> well, ideally newgrf(air)ports will provide a wider range of airports
15:21:37  <peter1138> cos the server owner didn't like ships or something?
15:21:48  <Pikka> with a wider range of capacities and associated costs
15:21:50  <peter1138> presumably cos you can spam them
15:22:29  <Pikka> what's that got to do with the price of potatoes, though?
15:23:14  <Pikka> "let's have no newgrfs in case people make newgrfs that do silly things"?
15:23:23  <peter1138> hm
15:25:25  <drac_boy> bit of dumb graphics question but I presume that vehicle lists can be of a different sprite than the normal horizontal side view sprite used?
15:25:38  <Pikka> yes they can
15:25:48  <drac_boy> thanks, wanted to be sure that was what I had thought
15:30:41  <michi_cc> Pikka: During development I asked several times for comments on the maintenance costs on the forums, but back then nobody could be bothered to test or at least answer, so you (all) got what I decided at random.
15:31:12  <Pikka> no complaints from me, michi_cc, I'm sure the costs are fine for the default aircraft and the default playstyle
15:31:56  <Pikka> but for av8 and TaI I need to ramp them down a bit which - thankfully - I can do. :)
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15:41:37  <V453000> drac_boy: graphics block -> purchase: spriteset;
15:42:03  <drac_boy> mm
15:50:53  <peter1138> michi_cc, doesn't mean it can't be discussed now :p
15:50:59  <drac_boy> V453000 and Action A could be used to redraw a base sprite rather thsn replacing it .. for the sake of savegame compactibility too?
15:51:20  <V453000> uhm do you use NML?
15:51:29  <drac_boy> nfo actually
15:51:39  <V453000> cant help you there, I just wonder why though
15:52:01  <michi_cc> peter1138: Indeed, but that means might actually have to do some tests ;) I'm certainly not going to stop anybody who wants to commit some modified factors.
15:52:12  <michi_cc> s/might/somebody might/
15:52:14  <V453000> NML makes coding so much easier
15:54:47  <Pikka> they're both easy if you know what you're doing
15:55:11  <Pikka> NML is marginally easier if you don't, perhaps.
15:55:30  <peter1138> the key to nfo is documentation
15:55:47  <peter1138> and sensible formatting
15:56:03  <Pikka> yes
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15:59:50  <andythenorth> the key to nfo is escapes :P
16:00:03  <andythenorth> and a templater with constants
16:00:19  <andythenorth> and an on-call support contract
16:00:20  <andythenorth> :P
16:00:31  <peter1138> no, escapes are meaningless without good formatting and comments
16:01:42  <andythenorth> I wasn't arguing about those :)
16:02:01  <drac_boy> heh heh
16:06:17  <andythenorth> ok, andythenorth lost the SV game :P
16:06:32  <andythenorth> do I want to play another 40 years for silver?
16:06:35  <Pikka> not big surprise
16:06:44  <andythenorth> errm, no thanks to that SV :)
16:06:58  <Pikka> I want to see what your multiplayer games are like
16:07:00  <andythenorth> not big surprise due to my skills wut?
16:07:01  <Pikka> scuddles will come too
16:07:17  <Pikka> not big surprise owing to the fact that you told us hours ago you were going to lose
16:07:36  <bolli> Out of asking is there any way to make a true "Loading" sprite work? So it shows only when at a station?
16:07:52  <Pikka> yes
16:08:16  <bolli> Whats the property called? :p
16:08:49  <Pikka> it isn't, it predates variables
16:09:07  <Pikka> it's within the action 2
16:09:34  <bolli> *in NML
16:09:50  <andythenorth> bolli it's probably the spriteset or such
16:09:51  <andythenorth> one min
16:10:00  <bolli> Sorry, should have said that up front :p
16:10:16  <Pikka> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Spritegroup
16:10:29  <Pikka> "Vehicles take two different series of spritesets; loading is used when the vehicle is loading within the station, loaded is used when the vehicle is travelling."
16:11:04  <andythenorth> similar format to action 2
16:11:09  <andythenorth> for obv. reasons
16:11:17  <bolli> Right, thanks :)
16:11:31  <andythenorth> will I teach my kids nfo?
16:11:32  <bolli> That suddenly makes the spritegroup settings make sense :)
16:12:06  <Pikka> probably
16:12:28  <bolli> Aha thanks, got it working now :)
16:12:46  *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #openttd
16:14:28  <andythenorth> Pikka: my GS play style is 'as many ships and RVs as possible'
16:14:33  <andythenorth> which isn't always a winning strategy
16:14:46  <andythenorth> and I'm not very good at the coop rules about signal placement, train size etc
16:15:05  <Pikka> ew coop rules
16:15:12  <andythenorth> it's more fun to lose with a silly strategy than win with pure efficiency
16:15:21  * andythenorth is a bit like an English person
16:15:33  <V453000> it isnt about rules, but about reasons
16:15:36  <Pikka> believe me, if you get scuddles on a server there'll be nothing but silly strategy
16:15:39  <V453000> aka if you need the throughput
16:15:47  <peter1138> scuddles :D
16:17:10  <andythenorth> V453000: if we were concerned about throughput, the optimum vehicle would be 1t capacity
16:17:13  <andythenorth> 1 piece flow ;)
16:17:44  <V453000> not exactly :)
16:19:20  <V453000> it might not be your aim to get a high traffic, the traffic just happens and you need to deal with it
16:22:49  <andythenorth> it must be contagious as a strategy
16:22:57  <andythenorth> all the stations in my last game are 8 tiles
16:22:58  <andythenorth> :P
16:23:03  <andythenorth> and most trains 8 tiles long
16:23:08  <andythenorth> very coop-esque
16:23:13  <andythenorth> only twice the usual size
16:23:17  * andythenorth still lost
16:23:40  <andythenorth> anyone sending translations for FIRS?  I should release the non-broken version I have here
16:23:41  <andythenorth> planetmaker: ^
16:23:44  <andythenorth> Alberth: ^
16:24:01  <planetmaker> I guess I c/should have a look. Will do now
16:25:18  <andythenorth> does anyone read the commuity submitted lang files before adding them?
16:25:20  * andythenorth hasn't been
16:25:24  <andythenorth> could be anything :P
16:25:52  <andythenorth> executable python stuff :P
16:25:54  <andythenorth> who knows :P
16:28:06  <peter1138> just like that patch i gave you?
16:28:15  <andythenorth> yeah
16:28:29  <andythenorth> and every port and every python module I install
16:28:42  <andythenorth> where's the security eh?
16:31:48  <peter1138> andythenorth, how does the pathfinder find a road stop?
16:32:43  <andythenorth> afaict, magic
16:33:10  <andythenorth> I have read some road code, but it would take a day more reading before I understood it :P
16:33:19  <andythenorth> it took me 6 months to understand industry_cmd.cpp :P
16:35:47  *** Pensacola [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:36:01  <peter1138> logically the tileindex of a roadstop must be used, but i can't see it :S
16:36:09  <andythenorth> who wrote the road stuff?
16:36:15  <andythenorth> drive-thru stops?
16:36:29  <andythenorth> lego roller coastr http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QCR-fKfcawA
16:39:14  <andythenorth> now my game is finished, I should fix some newgrfs :P
16:40:16  <Pikka> is it 7:35 yet? :P
16:40:23  <andythenorth> if only
16:40:28  <andythenorth> food + bath between now and then
16:40:37  <Pikka> ah :)
16:40:41  * andythenorth looks at his brisbane clock
16:40:49  <andythenorth> 2.40am?
16:40:52  <Pikka> yes
16:40:58  <andythenorth> I have one on my desktop :P
16:41:25  <andythenorth> by some coincidence our main bases are Bristol and Brisbane
16:41:36  <andythenorth> I'm now looking for more cities beginning "Bris...'
16:42:06  <peter1138> heh
16:42:12  <SpComb> scuddles madness?
16:42:14  <peter1138> i found my populous box
16:42:15  <Pikka> well there's another Brisbane in San Fransisco, but they pronounce it funny
16:42:19  <peter1138> complete with manual
16:42:22  <peter1138> and 3.5" floppy
16:42:33  <andythenorth> orly?
16:42:35  <peter1138> back when complete games fit a single floppy
16:42:39  <peter1138> 1989 :S
16:42:44  <andythenorth> I want somewhere in CaliforniA
16:42:57  <andythenorth> winter sun
16:43:15  <andythenorth> Brisbane is too far, and has the disadvantage of being 40' and 98% humidity
16:43:21  <andythenorth> 37' would be ok :P
16:43:32  <Pikka> not often 40
16:44:10  <Pikka> give it another30 years then maybe we'll have a couple of weeks a year when it hits 40, at the moment it's a couple of days.
16:47:36  <andythenorth> it has been over-dramaed to me ;)
16:47:57  <Pikka> it's also basically what aircon is for ;)
16:48:25  <andythenorth> hmm
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16:52:38  <andythenorth> Pikka: who can run a server?
16:52:45  <Pikka> peter1138!
16:52:50  <peter1138> i what?
16:53:19  <Rubidium> peter already has a server: fizzle.org ;)
16:54:30  <Pikka> well
16:54:37  <Pikka> maybe andy then :P
16:55:31  <peter1138> hmm
16:55:33  <peter1138> i can
16:55:35  <andythenorth> i can haz not
16:55:35  <peter1138> what version?
16:55:45  <peter1138> heh, all my working trees are r15000 or so
16:56:00  <andythenorth> 'latest'
16:56:01  <andythenorth> :P
16:56:07  <SpComb> svn up && make
16:56:08  <peter1138> including this one that increases the cargo type limit
16:56:39  <peter1138> andythenorth, 'Latest' is not a valid version ;-)
16:56:44  <peter1138> silly subject
16:57:04  <Pikka> nightly I suppose
16:57:06  <andythenorth> o/c it is valid :P
16:57:11  <andythenorth> I have a timestamp on my post
16:57:18  <andythenorth> ow silly
16:57:21  <andythenorth> +h
16:57:36  <Pikka> who silly?
16:57:39  <andythenorth> the topic
16:58:49  <peter1138> checking build system type... i486-linux-gnu
16:58:51  <peter1138> YEAH BOY
16:59:30  <peter1138> i need a config
17:01:16  <SpComb> cat /def/urandom | grep 'breakdowns*off' > openttd.cfg
17:01:35  *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable105.141-163-184.mc.videotron.ca] has left #openttd [I'm done being in this room!]
17:02:00  <andythenorth> change the airport limit :P
17:02:22  <andythenorth> biab
17:04:13  *** chester_ [~chester@128-72-172-32.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
17:04:32  <Alberth> andythenorth: dutch translation of firs looks ok to me, judging by the output of my script
17:09:07  <Pikka> andy's config probably
17:12:20  <Kjetil> Anyone knows how lightsignalet on real railroads work ?
17:12:53  <Alberth> with light, and electricity, but that's about it :p
17:13:23  <Kjetil> haha
17:22:53  <Alberth> andythenorth: The one plantation string you mentioned needed update in Dutch too; pushed
17:23:34  <bolli> What do you mean by "lightsignalet"? :p
17:25:40  <planetmaker> andythenorth, is biorefinery string correct with production description?
17:25:53  <bolli> Kjetil: http://www.signalbox.org/
17:26:02  <planetmaker> independent of the double "per" in it?
17:27:44  * andythenorth searches for birorefinery
17:27:47  <andythenorth> not correct :P
17:27:58  <andythenorth> makes pens
17:28:39  <andythenorth> planetmaker: double per will be fixed.  otherwise correct afaict
17:29:03  <planetmaker> ok
17:29:05  <planetmaker> thx
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17:32:31  <SpComb> peter1138: so where's the server?
17:32:49  <peter1138> there
17:34:50  <SpComb> I don't see it!
17:35:18  <peter1138> well
17:35:38  <peter1138> http://www.openttd.org/en/server/65901
17:35:52  <SpComb> oh, there
17:36:28  <peter1138> nice that it still links to grfgrawler instead of bananananananas
17:36:33  <SpComb> my newstations 0.51 has the same date, but md5sum mismatch
17:36:50  <peter1138> oh mb you
17:37:03  <SpComb> say no more, say no more
17:38:00  <Pikka> dos v windows?
17:38:06  <Pikka> which does peter have?
17:38:08  <peter1138> i just downloaded it again and get the same one
17:38:12  <peter1138> there's only one version
17:38:27  <Pikka> there's two files on mb's website
17:38:47  <peter1138> different filename
17:38:55  <peter1138> newstats.grf
17:38:58  <peter1138> is what i have
17:38:58  <Pikka> ok
17:39:07  <Pikka> dos it are then
17:39:17  <planetmaker> no point in getting windows versions really :-)
17:39:26  <planetmaker> (nor in making those :D)
17:39:36  <peter1138> not unless you use ttdpatch
17:39:41  <peter1138> (lol)
17:39:48  <SpComb> 1214dd7f5fd214aaf7e4a83a3c8226a9  newstatsw.grf
17:40:01  <SpComb> oh, I'm a windows noob then
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17:40:12  <Pikka> 1880 start?  I assume this isn't the 7 year challenge? :)
17:40:22  <peter1138> no gamescript on
17:40:29  <Pikka> oh :)
17:40:48  <peter1138> i've er
17:40:49  <peter1138> never used them
17:41:17  <andythenorth> NoCarGoal :P
17:41:49  <andythenorth> meh, I'll have to find grfs and crap
17:42:20  <peter1138> should all be in bananas except newstats
17:43:44  <SpComb> aah, how do you close the console
17:43:59  <andythenorth> ~
17:44:01  <peter1138> `
17:44:10  <SpComb> I just typed a ~ into it
17:44:18  <peter1138> o_O
17:44:46  <andythenorth> esc
17:44:51  <peter1138> use the menu
17:45:13  <SpComb> quite
17:45:22  <SpComb> did openttd have customizeable hotkeys yet?
17:45:49  <andythenorth> yup
17:47:42  <andythenorth> hmm
17:47:58  * andythenorth contributes to the non-Bananas virus by downloading new stations
17:48:21  <andythenorth> it's nothing against MB
17:48:23  <peter1138> tai stations
17:48:24  <andythenorth> it's just stupid
17:48:30  <peter1138> or ukrs station
17:48:34  <peter1138> who knows
17:48:38  <andythenorth> he doesn't like stations
17:48:41  <andythenorth> the australian one
17:48:52  <andythenorth> he thinks the spec smells of wee
17:49:25  <andythenorth> hnn
17:49:28  <andythenorth> version mismatch
17:49:36  <andythenorth> apparently not 'latest' :P
17:50:12  * andythenorth plays the hg version number guessing game
17:57:54  <SpComb> that was fast!
17:57:58  <SpComb> who won?
17:58:20  *** Scuddles [~notme@183.90.122.161] has joined #openttd
17:58:27  <Pikka> you won!
17:58:36  <Scuddles> did he
17:58:40  <Pikka> no
17:59:10  <Pikka> andy: also, stations have been done, I don't think there's much new I'd bring to it :P
17:59:31  <Scuddles> except for coal tipplers and water tanks
17:59:57  <andythenorth> Pikka: evil :P
18:00:15  <Pikka> Scuddles: you draw them, andy will code them.
18:00:15  <andythenorth> but yeah, limited gameplay interest
18:00:26  <andythenorth> I've outsourced my station coding :)
18:00:28  <andythenorth> I did try
18:00:31  <Scuddles> I'd rather a gollotspinnels
18:00:37  <andythenorth> but the spec is gollotspinnels
18:00:43  <Scuddles> D;
18:00:46  <Pikka> yes
18:01:18  * SpComb googles for an ukrs cheatsheet
18:01:20  <andythenorth> the server can haz gone away?
18:01:28  <Pikka> changing some parameters
18:01:39  <V453000> ukrs cheatsheet? :d
18:01:47  <SpComb> is there something wrong with cobnobs or whatever they were?
18:01:53  <peter1138> hmm
18:01:58  <peter1138> which is the latest ukrs addons?
18:02:08  <Pikka> they're just a bit tiny and outdated by 1880, spcomb
18:02:17  <Pikka> "dreadnought" peter
18:02:22  <Scuddles> dreadnought reporting
18:02:23  <Pikka> I forgot to increment the version number
18:02:24  <Pikka> whoops
18:02:34  <peter1138> ah, that'll explain it
18:03:44  <peter1138> ok
18:03:57  <Pikka> oops
18:04:02  <Pikka> it's now saying ukrs2 1.01 :}
18:04:11  <peter1138> wut
18:04:23  <Pikka> oh
18:04:27  <Pikka> maybe because the addon set
18:04:32  <Pikka> I think it may be a bananas "feature"
18:05:02  <Pikka> if you say a grf is required for another grf, it thinks that the version that existed when you told it it was required is the one it needs
18:05:10  <peter1138> oh
18:05:35  <peter1138> anyway the server is back on
18:05:40  <Pikka> so even though you've got 1.03, it thinks it needs to download 1.01 as well for the addon set
18:05:41  <peter1138> should be cc'd now
18:05:42  <SpComb> for ever and ever more?
18:05:53  <peter1138> hopefully
18:06:25  <peter1138> you only get to see the parameters as numbers in game :S
18:06:55  <Pikka> do you?
18:07:00  <Pikka> I see the full parameters window
18:07:09  <Pikka> maybe because I have the developer switch on
18:07:12  <peter1138> oh
18:07:12  <peter1138> no
18:07:20  <peter1138> i didn't click on 'show parameters' :S
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18:20:03  * andythenorth is stumped
18:20:09  <andythenorth> I've played hg version guessing
18:20:27  <andythenorth> but can't compile an ottd version that matches the server :P
18:22:36  <andythenorth> hg summary tells me I'm at svn rev 24867
18:24:02  <peter1138> yeah maybe cos hg isn't svn?
18:24:13  <peter1138> easier to just... download it from the website?
18:24:58  <V453000> NO. :D
18:27:07  *** oh8hth [~jsiren@188-67-36-204.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd
18:27:55  <oh8hth> good evening
18:28:10  <andythenorth> so latest means 'latest binary', not 'tip'
18:28:13  <andythenorth> :(
18:28:18  <andythenorth> who would've guessed?
18:28:54  <Pikka> welcome to "latest is not a version" :D
18:29:00  <Pikka> nightly edition
18:29:40  <andythenorth> well indeed
18:31:26  <oh8hth> could somebody help: I'm writing a gamescript and I need to display currency numbers in the goal window, what codes do I need to use? esp. with negative values?
18:32:30  <oh8hth> for now I've only managed to get any results with {NUM}, and negative values roll over (I ended up doing abs(value) and slapping on a minus sign).
18:34:09  <oh8hth> the values are from the GSCompany class mostly.
18:34:27  <Rubidium> it should do that; {NUM} should be perfectly fine for displaying negative numbers
18:34:55  <oh8hth> hmm.
18:35:15  <Rubidium> though you're better of using {CURRENCY_LONG} or {CURRENCY_SHORT}
18:35:21  <oh8hth> ah.
18:35:26  <oh8hth> i didn't know about those.
18:35:30  <oh8hth> thanks.
18:37:23  <Rubidium> though I'm not sure that solves your issue
18:37:46  <Rubidium> what does passing -1 yield?
18:38:21  <oh8hth> what am i doing wrong: i pass -1 to GSText as a parameter to {NUM} - the display ends up being two's complement of -1 (i.e. more than 2 billion). OpenTTD version is 1.3.0-beta1.
18:39:57  <oh8hth> the {NUM} being in english.txt.
18:40:14  <Pikka> looks like all I need to do is add a CTT
18:45:58  <oh8hth> testing; CURRENCY_SHORT still displays negative cash (obtained with GSCompany.GetBankBalance(company_id);) as £2,147M.
18:47:25  <Pikka> nope, there's something quite broken
18:47:38  <Pikka> might want to load the older version from bananas, peter1138 :)
18:48:32  <Rubidium> oh8hth: yeah, it looks like the code is buggy somewhere
18:48:52  <oh8hth> should i submit a bug report?
18:48:55  <planetmaker> andythenorth, if you want to join server, you need svn or download
18:49:14  <Rubidium> oh8hth: yes please
18:49:34  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24871 /trunk/src/lang (44 files in 2 dirs) (2012-12-29 18:49:17 UTC)
18:49:35  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:49:36  <DorpsGek> arabic_egypt - 44 changes by kasakg
18:49:37  <DorpsGek> catalan - 33 changes by Bassals
18:49:38  <DorpsGek> english_AU - 311 changes by mrtux
18:49:39  <DorpsGek> finnish - 4 changes by jpx_
18:49:40  <DorpsGek> hungarian - 6 changes by alyr
18:49:41  <DorpsGek> icelandic - 4 changes by Stimrol
18:49:42  <DorpsGek> indonesian - 1 changes by fanioz
18:49:43  <DorpsGek> korean - 1 changes by telk5093
18:49:44  <DorpsGek> latvian - 36 changes by Parastais
18:49:45  <DorpsGek> norwegian_bokmal - 70 changes by Inspirion, cuthbert
18:49:46  <DorpsGek> polish - 1 changes by wojteks86
18:49:49  <oh8hth> Rubidium, will do.
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18:57:11  <Pikka> peter1138, andythenorth spcomb Scuddles: http://www.pikkarail.com/tai_industry.grf
19:00:20  <Pikka> and on bananas
19:03:33  <andythenorth> planetmaker: why can't builds from a hg repo join MP?
19:06:17  <SpComb> what happen
19:06:25  <Rubidium> (impersonating planetmaker) because there's no way to determine whether the build is unmodified, and as such the hg revision and not the svn revision is used to construct the openttd version
19:07:05  <peter1138> does not work
19:07:15  <Pikka> whoops
19:07:20  <Pikka> start again again :D
19:07:27  <Pikka> sorry
19:07:27  <peter1138> :S
19:07:47  <Pikka> my fault for publishing a dud grf
19:08:21  <oskari89> One could cheat that way :P
19:09:24  <peter1138> he did
19:09:31  <peter1138> hmm, the map is the same
19:09:35  <peter1138> but it's blankety blank
19:10:17  <Scuddles> look what you did D;
19:10:21  <SpComb> did you save?
19:12:06  *** Devroush [~dennis@182.183-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #openttd
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19:19:31  <planetmaker> :-)
19:21:53  <oh8hth> ok, bug reported: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5419
19:22:20  <oh8hth> apply whatever pesticide you see fit :)
19:24:56  <Rubidium> oh8hth: thank you
19:25:47  <andythenorth> 10 mins until this child is asleep
19:25:50  <andythenorth> probly
19:25:56  <oh8hth> on a completely unrelated note, i and mr oskari89 were discussing the topic of switching/shunting/marshalling/choose your dialect, as in http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=43972&start=40#p819071
19:27:24  <oh8hth> now, i don't know if this idea is old and shot down many times, but would it be possible to have a type of station (in a NewGRF, for ex.) that would manage shunting within itself?
19:27:43  <oh8hth> so that whatever pathfinder were in use would see it as a station.
19:28:16  <andythenorth> make it a depot
19:28:24  <oh8hth> that too.
19:28:25  <andythenorth> and just script changing the consist ;)
19:28:38  <andythenorth> maybe GS can manipulate consists? o_O
19:28:38  <oh8hth> then you'd only need the visuals.
19:28:44  <oh8hth> hmm.
19:28:45  <andythenorth> nah, you don't get those
19:28:46  <oskari89> GUI
19:28:50  <andythenorth> it's a game not a train simulator
19:28:58  <oh8hth> that's true.
19:28:59  <andythenorth> train sims exist elswhere
19:29:24  <andythenorth> actually I may be wrong
19:29:27  <andythenorth> maybe it is a train sim
19:29:29  <oh8hth> :)
19:29:39  <andythenorth> I've never really been clear on that point tbh
19:29:52  <oh8hth> personally i take it as a game :)
19:29:52  <oskari89> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=43972&start=60#p995489
19:30:18  <oskari89> I have some consept on that scripting there
19:30:19  <andythenorth> I think it's a game, but many of the most vociferous / prolific forum posters think it's a train sim afaict
19:30:34  <oskari89> Its both i think
19:30:59  <oskari89> Not a Railroad tycoon, neither MSTS or TS2013
19:31:20  <oh8hth> as a train or economy sim it's not much, what with the warped concept of time, speed, and money, but as a game it's loads of fun and very addictive :)
19:31:43  <andythenorth> it's a pretty poor train sim
19:32:02  <oh8hth> i think it needs the minimum of train, or any, sim aspects to keep it fun
19:32:19  <V453000> realism!
19:32:28  <andythenorth> I haven't played a train sim, ever, but I don't see OpenTTD providing something like this http://www.railsimulator.com
19:32:53  <V453000> ofc not
19:32:58  <oskari89> No, it's not that, it's on 2.5D :)
19:33:53  <oh8hth> i like to play with openbve, and i think it's fun as well, but i wouldn't call for that kind of realism in openttd.
19:35:16  <peter1138> not played that in ages
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20:13:46  <oh8hth> sorry about my abrupt silence earlier, internet service died
20:13:58  <oh8hth> now on joikuspot
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20:16:41  <V453000> random_switch (FEAT_TRAINS, SELF, wtf1, bitmask(TRIGGER_VEHICLE_SERVICE, TRIGGER_VEHICLE_ANY_LOAD, TRIGGER_VEHICLE_UNLOAD_ALL )){-stuff-} <--- this magical lady should randomize everytime a train either enters depot, loads anything, or unloads everything?
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20:17:56  <planetmaker> yes
20:18:02  <planetmaker> let me guess, V453000: it doesn't
20:19:02  <V453000> well yeah :(
20:19:07  <V453000> the servicing seems to be borkd
20:19:48  <planetmaker> servicing? The other two work?
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20:20:03  <V453000> trying those now
20:20:09  <V453000> but it does randomize when purchasing the vehicle
20:20:40  <planetmaker> yes
20:21:11  <planetmaker> I was actually testing something there the other day. And found it working oddly or badly. But didn't have enough time to investigate to the end
20:21:18  <V453000> alright the other two are bork too
20:21:35  <V453000> so it only randomizes when purchasing vehicle, conditions are ignored somehow
20:21:49  <planetmaker> do you have small grf (just one wagon) I could quickly play with?
20:21:59  <V453000> hmf, just code
20:22:15  <V453000> I dont have sources for my small test newgrfs here, sorry
20:22:30  <planetmaker> I mean the code for one wagon which compiles :D. If not, no problem. Got source here, too which I can cut down
20:22:49  <V453000> oh sure, one sec
20:23:23  <planetmaker> well, with lang + pic so that I can test :D
20:23:40  <planetmaker> s/pic/sprite
20:24:20  <planetmaker> I just don't dare to read through the de-compiled shit of a full blown newgrf with zillions of engines :-)
20:24:22  <V453000> I have them all over the stuff, please substitute with some random spriteset/strings http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2009/
20:24:33  <V453000> well yeah I understand that :)
20:25:01  <V453000> this just has a few switches/stuff you need to disable
20:25:20  <V453000> sprites dont really matter in this case
20:25:52  <V453000> The idea of the thing is "Engine randomizes its power based on its mood" ... yes, I know, normal :))
20:26:05  <V453000> so what I intend to do is trigger at either of those three conditions
20:26:09  <planetmaker> sprites matter... for it to compile
20:26:19  <V453000> well yeah but just load some random white space :d
20:26:30  <planetmaker> but don't worry. I take the ussr set to test :D
20:26:34  <V453000> ok :)
20:27:04  <planetmaker> they should release it, though. it's nice
20:27:29  <V453000> there was some major wtf when we tried it, but I dont remember what it was
20:27:40  <V453000> something with the various rails I think
20:27:53  <planetmaker> yes, unfortunately it provides rails in the same set
20:28:06  <michi_cc> V453000: I don't think random_switch works as you think it does.
20:28:14  <V453000> :d
20:28:29  <V453000> I cant randomize power? :)
20:28:42  <V453000> I mean, when wagons can change sprites...
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20:30:28  <V453000> care to clarify a bit please? :)
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20:32:00  <michi_cc> Not this way. Randomization is basically like a call to a pseudo-CB 1 which updates the random bits of the vehicle.
20:33:42  <V453000> sounds pseudo :D
20:34:00  <planetmaker> michi_cc, yes. But the random_switch in NML is supposed to work that way as shown. Returning the values as indicated with the probability 1/n before the ":", where n = sum (numbers before ":")
20:34:13  <planetmaker> or I misunderstand it as well :D
20:34:27  <planetmaker> re-randomization should happen as indicated by the bitmask given in the switch argument
20:35:11  <michi_cc> Well, I'd have to see the NFO translation to see how NML random_switch relates to random action 2.
20:37:01  <michi_cc> The re-randomization runs with CB == 0x01. No idea what NML routes that to.
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20:38:52  <drac_boy> hi
20:40:44  <peter1138> randomisation was a bit... hairy to figure out what it does
20:40:50  <peter1138> and i've forgotten :p
20:43:48  <V453000> :(
20:51:25  * Pikka nudges peter1138
20:51:29  <Pikka> turn off inflation :P
20:52:23  <Pikka> ta
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20:59:31  <michi_cc> planetmaker: As far as I can see NML creates code that correctly evaluates the random_switch for the power, but that never enters the random switch during re-randomization. The random_switch is only processed during handling of CB 36 (re-random runs as CB 01). Can't say if this is a NML bug or just wrong NML code.
21:00:01  <michi_cc> Without re-random, the random bits never change.
21:00:03  <skassem> why
21:00:25  <skassem> I play openttd
21:01:06  <Alberth> we don't know why you play OpenTTD
21:01:07  <skassem> why van
21:01:43  <V453000> what that basically means is that the random_switch should not work like I want it to?
21:01:45  <michi_cc> V453000: "Note that re-randomizing is done only during a special callback, random_trigger. This callback is called whenever a trigger event occurs. As a consequence, it's absolutely necessary for the random_switch block to be in executed during this callback, or trigger-based re-randomizing won't take place. Also, the callback may not fail (end with CB_FAILED), so return an arbitrary value or even a sprite set instead. This return value is not use
21:01:45  <michi_cc> d anywhere."
21:02:05  <skassem> because I like to play it
21:02:16  <michi_cc> Translation: Read docs more carefully ;)
21:02:26  <Alberth> skassem: good reason :)
21:03:40  <drac_boy> heh heh
21:03:43  <skassem> hey I play samce day
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21:03:57  <V453000> michi_cc: hm, so how should I solve the issue?
21:04:08  <V453000> reading docs better, noted :)
21:04:23  <michi_cc> "random_trigger: monowtf1_power;"
21:04:46  <michi_cc> If you need more than one random_switch, you have to find a way to chain them somehow.
21:04:56  <skassem> ok
21:05:13  <V453000> ohhh
21:05:15  <V453000> let me try
21:07:08  <V453000> hm, where do I put that actually?
21:07:24  <michi_cc> Where you put all other callbacks.
21:08:37  <skassem> what your version first?
21:09:34  <skassem> I not have it now
21:10:43  <V453000> oh x_x I think I have a complete brain eclipse, thanks michi
21:11:04  <Alberth> your brain has an IDE?  :)
21:11:26  <michi_cc> V453000: As an aside: trigger on depot should work, but I don't think OTTD re-queries power during vehicle loading, i.e. the cached power is not updated.
21:11:28  <V453000> I dont think my brain runs electricity, somewhere around stone age
21:11:39  <skassem> me to
21:11:59  <V453000> alright I will see what other triggers could I use
21:12:05  <V453000> the station one is a shame though
21:12:08  <V453000> I will try for sure
21:12:20  <V453000> compiling..
21:12:24  <oh8hth> my brain tends to bluescreen, so i woulnd't install eclipse on it
21:12:59  <michi_cc> Well, it will re-randomize, but only get the new power whenever the cache is updated (maybe it is updated somewhere duing loading, but maybe not. Look up the source :)
21:13:08  <V453000> interesting :)
21:13:13  <V453000> wtf incoming :D
21:13:30  <skassem> im download openttd
21:13:51  <V453000> omfg it works michi :DD
21:14:11  <V453000> all 3 triggers work
21:14:19  <V453000> thanks so much :)
21:14:48  <V453000> this is going to be awesome
21:16:06  <skassem> Im the multplayer ghtnow.
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21:18:12  <V453000> hm, if I wanted to take this to the next level and check the vehicle power, resulting in various sprites, would that work?
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21:18:23  <V453000> I cant see any variable like power :(
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21:18:54  <peter1138> psst, var 25
21:19:23  <V453000> that hints nfo reading time of hell
21:22:15  <V453000> hm, where should I search for that var peter? :(
21:22:19  <V453000> like which action or something
21:22:44  <bolli> Hmm. Has anybody ever gotten openttd working on ARM? :P
21:22:58  <peter1138> yes, that's nothing special
21:23:08  <bolli> ok :)
21:23:25  <bolli> I can see if my newly arrived pi can do it...
21:23:32  <peter1138> apt-get install openttd
21:23:37  <peter1138> pretty simple
21:23:42  <bolli> :P
21:23:49  <peter1138> (and no, it's not very fast)
21:23:52  <bolli> That presumes I have an internet connection...
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21:24:12  <peter1138> well maybe the linux version is okay
21:24:17  <peter1138> the risc os port was horribly slow
21:24:51  <bolli> I got the arch version...
21:24:59  <bolli> *I have
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21:25:43  <peter1138> which 'arch'?
21:26:03  <bolli> the pi orientated one :P
21:26:13  <peter1138> ?
21:26:27  <bolli> Infact its just Arch Linux for ARM
21:26:28  <drac_boy> peter...arch is a distro name too btw?
21:26:35  <V453000> I cant seem to find var35 :(
21:26:56  <bolli> http://www.archlinux.org
21:26:59  <peter1138> prop 25, might not be useful, dunno
21:27:07  <peter1138> arch could be... an arch
21:27:20  <peter1138> or could be short for architecture (system type, etc)
21:27:37  <peter1138> or could be short for archimedes (possible in the context of ARM)
21:28:00  <peter1138> but yeah, you meant arch linux
21:28:14  <peter1138> whatever floats yer boat
21:29:46  <V453000> peter1138: am I searching in the right area? anything containing power of the engines doesnt look like being there :(
21:29:51  <Rubidium> definitely archimedes ;)
21:31:04  <andythenorth> did all TTD nerds have an acorn at some point?
21:32:04  <Rubidium> I'd classify myself as not being a TTD nerd then ;)
21:32:10  <V453000> could anyone please help me? I am trying for a variable with which I would be able to make a switch which would change sprites of a certain engine based on what power that engine has ... andythenorth ? .)
21:32:48  <andythenorth> no var for reading hp?
21:32:53  <V453000> I cant see any in nml
21:32:56  <andythenorth> consist power?
21:32:58  <andythenorth> 80+ var?
21:33:08  <V453000> no just that one engine, not whole consist
21:33:26  <skassem> I not do that
21:33:38  <drac_boy> andythenorth nope, but have been thinking a bit about one as a third computer. hard part is most of the ones for sale are oversea which makes it not worth the cost ;)
21:34:00  <peter1138> var F4?
21:34:06  <peter1138> cached_power
21:34:17  <andythenorth> someone should do open sourced Chocks Away
21:34:23  <peter1138> just don't use it in callbacks
21:34:28  <peter1138> andythenorth, yes
21:34:36  <peter1138> andythenorth, in hig res ;p
21:34:39  <Stimrol> hello I am doing some of the translation, where is this string STR_CONFIG_SETTING_DISABLED
21:34:40  <andythenorth> but still vectors
21:34:44  <andythenorth> just really nice vectors
21:34:46  <peter1138> yes
21:34:50  <andythenorth> can't be hard :P
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21:35:07  <V453000> where are you finding that :d I havent found a single thing out of the things you said in grf specs yet :D
21:35:15  <skassem> I not do that
21:35:25  <peter1138> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VariationalAction2/Vehicles
21:35:28  <peter1138> For other 80+x variables confer the TTD vehicle structure.
21:35:36  <peter1138> confer?
21:35:41  <peter1138> surely... refer to
21:36:14  <andythenorth> 4.1 here http://www.starfighter.acornarcade.com/mysite/articles/P3Report/Chapter2.html#4.1
21:36:17  <andythenorth> peter1138: ^
21:36:18  <V453000> I almost fear to ask what is TTD vehicle structure :o
21:36:19  <skassem> im getn out if here
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21:36:31  <peter1138> V453000, it's a link
21:36:43  <peter1138> although that is the power of the whole train
21:36:44  <peter1138> hmm
21:36:45  <V453000> I see now
21:37:17  <peter1138> andythenorth, somehow i read that recently already
21:37:22  <andythenorth> I posted it :P
21:37:27  <andythenorth> it contains no help
21:37:30  <Rubidium> Stimrol: good question; based on the location I'd suspect there to be some settings having a DISABLED option where also ON and OFF are shown
21:37:41  <andythenorth> if you code it, I'll draw the graphics
21:37:49  <andythenorth> at least, the bitmaps :P
21:38:28  <michi_cc> Var F4 is total power, can't see anything in the code for single-engine power (and OTTD doesn't store that anywhere).
21:38:46  <Stimrol> Rubidium, it is already translated but marked and I am not finding it in advanced setting :)
21:39:23  <V453000> hm, okay, I didnt expect that, but still ... is there any way how to get the result of the random switch (the one with power) to the sprites and make 5k engine look different than 6k engine?
21:39:54  <Rubidium> it's marked because the capitalisation of the string was changed
21:40:24  <planetmaker> hm, interesting, michi_cc
21:41:42  <michi_cc> V453000: Read http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Random_switch and look where it mentions "<dependent>: <other_random>"
21:41:54  <Stimrol> ok I will look at that, thought it was only because the former translator thought it nicer to have lowercase
21:42:07  <michi_cc> With that you can create a second random_switch in the sprite chain that reads the same random bits.
21:42:36  <michi_cc> Or query variable 5F, but then you have to know yourself which random bits NML uses.
21:43:41  <peter1138> why is it that when i sit down, my microwave beeps after 15 seconds
21:43:56  <peter1138> when i stay up, it's always still on minutes to ago
21:43:58  <peter1138> -a
21:44:02  <Rubidium> Stimrol: though I can't really find the use of that string anywhere
21:46:06  <V453000> so I make a second random which has "independent: monowtf1_power; and then the same amount of 1: spriteset_5kpower;" ?
21:46:15  <V453000> cant say I understand the "power of 2" thing
21:46:32  <V453000> ah that is for something else
21:46:58  <Stimrol> ok, I will continue
21:49:51  <V453000> nmlc internal error xD
21:50:08  <V453000> object has no attribute reduce
21:51:07  <Rubidium> Stimrol: in the advanced settings (expert/all) filter on snap. The window snap radius gets the disabled once the value gets 0
21:51:18  <V453000> michi_cc: does that make sense? http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2013/
21:51:22  <Rubidium> Stimrol: there are a number of other settings that have the same behaviour, all in that window
21:52:36  <michi_cc> V453000: You can leave out the triggers, they are only used if the random_switch is in the random_trigger callback. Otherwise that should work in theory.
21:53:01  <V453000> I wanted to ask what triggers to use :)
21:53:14  <V453000> alright so there is something fishy in nmlc
21:54:40  <Alberth> yeah, you found a bug :)
21:54:53  <V453000> not the first time :P I will make a report tomorrow
21:55:01  <V453000> thanks for your help!
21:56:38  <V453000> for now, good night :)
21:56:43  <Alberth> good night
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22:47:54  <andythenorth> bye
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22:48:06  <oh8hth> night.
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