Log for #openttd on 12th January 2013:
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00:13:55  <Supercheese> Hmm, do the forums still have that pesky 3-attachment-per-post limit?
00:14:48  <Supercheese> Yes, apparently. :(
00:21:57  <Eddi|zuHause> just attach it to other posts and link it in the first post
00:22:21  <Supercheese> Yes, either that or make a new thread
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01:43:14  <drac_boy> hi
01:44:21  * drac_boy runs Flygon over with a NGG16
01:44:23  <drac_boy> heh heh
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02:04:56  * Flygon prods drac_boy
02:05:42  <Supercheese> So I've had Eyecandy Road Vehicles translated to UK Enlgish, I was wondering if Australian English would have any major differences
02:05:53  <drac_boy> how're you flygon? :)
02:06:01  <Flygon> Decent ennough
02:06:13  <Flygon> Wanted to bring up something, but forgot what
02:06:16  <Supercheese> (relevant text)
02:06:22  <Flygon> Supercheese: It really, really, depends
02:06:26  <drac_boy> Supercheese you'll have to check for 'local' slangs but otherwise I doubt there is much different
02:06:43  <Flygon> Okay, yeah
02:06:45  <Flygon> There's differences
02:06:47  <Supercheese> Police cars
02:06:49  <Supercheese> Fire Engines
02:06:50  <Supercheese> and the like
02:07:01  <drac_boy> just like how in usa a police car on side of road set up for speed traps are often called Smokey Bear by truckers
02:07:18  <Supercheese> If you'd like to transalte to AU English, I'd be most grateful
02:07:22  <Supercheese> translate*
02:07:42  <Flygon> Translating now
02:07:48  <Supercheese> Here's the US English
02:08:06  <Supercheese> awesome, thanks
02:08:29  <Flygon> "Breakdown Recovery Lorry"
02:08:30  <Flygon> See
02:08:38  <Flygon> This is why Australians hybridized English with American :P
02:09:11  <Flygon> Took me a few seconds to figure out "Dustbin Lorry" :P
02:10:53  <Flygon> Urg... "Mail Van"
02:11:14  <Flygon> I should note, this actually changes depending on your region of Australia. But most people do use the word "Mail Truck"
02:12:07  <Supercheese> It was actually decided later that "Breakdown Truck" was more UK English than "Breakdown Recovery Lorry"
02:12:09  <Flygon> In fact... when translated to AU, it's just US language @_@
02:12:12  <Supercheese>
02:12:40  <Supercheese> Strange, I though commonwealth nations would prefer the term "post" over "mail"
02:12:48  <Supercheese> Guess not
02:12:59  <Supercheese> RMS, Royal Mail Service
02:13:10  <Flygon>
02:13:30  <Supercheese> Basically US English but with color-->colour
02:13:31  <Flygon> Supercheese: The Australian state of Victoria became HUGELY infatuated with the USA between the 1910s to 1930s
02:13:54  <Flygon> This created some VERY odd anomolies in Australian English
02:14:06  <Flygon> To the point where several words have multiple legal spellings
02:14:14  <Flygon> eg. Labor and Labour are both 100% valid
02:14:36  <Flygon> Anyway, there's your .lng file :p
02:14:56  <Flygon> Also, on a broader context
02:15:06  <Flygon> We do have more to do with UK english ;3
02:15:14  <Flygon> For example, faucet isn't a legal word in Australian
02:15:18  <Supercheese> Y'know, "Fire Engine" is seeming better and better to me, even for US English
02:15:25  <Supercheese> think I'll change that across the board
02:15:47  <Flygon> Fire Truck and Fire Engine are interchangable here
02:15:54  <Supercheese> same here
02:16:00  <Supercheese> but Fire Engine sounds more... official
02:16:05  <Flygon> Yeah
02:16:16  <Supercheese> Engine #2 dispatched... etc.
02:16:50  <Supercheese> Here's a fun question, are the emergency sirens down under more like UK sirens or US sirens? From what I recall there's quite a difference between them
02:17:03  <Flygon> Not sure
02:17:10  <Flygon> YouTube should be helpful
02:17:18  <Supercheese> Well, the ones in the .grf are definitely more US
02:17:28  <Supercheese> it's difficult to describe sounds in words :P
02:17:41  <Flygon> ...default search term I use
02:17:42  <Flygon> "australian fire truck siren"
02:17:45  <drac_boy> flygon you want to know what a 'truck with bowling deck' is? :)
02:18:02  <Flygon> Well, given it's unconsiously 'truck', should I translate from Engine? :P
02:18:13  <Flygon> drac_boy: The 1970s
02:18:34  <Flygon> ...Supercheese: It might be possible different states use different sirens
02:18:41  <drac_boy> flygon to someone from uk its actually a lorry with a rather long stalkless flatbed trailer with no step-up over the 5th wheel shoe :)
02:18:52  <drac_boy> hence the reference to bowling
02:18:52  <Flygon> Standard for my regiion
02:18:59  <drac_boy> flat and thin :)
02:19:04  <Flygon> drac_boy: ...huh
02:19:06  <Flygon> Seems convoluted
02:19:12  <drac_boy> flygon yeah its an old slang
02:19:14  <Supercheese> That sounds more US
02:19:31  <Flygon> Mm
02:19:41  <Flygon> Also, our road signs are US based
02:19:42  <drac_boy> flygon there is also "hi-cube" for both trucks and trains .. basically its a box but with high ceiling height :)
02:19:56  <Flygon> Our roads are neither European nor American, though... closer to European, however
02:20:05  <Flygon> Definitely NOT British
02:20:12  <Supercheese> Maybe London has changed their sirens since the 90s
02:20:15  <Flygon> dracco, you got me thinking of borg
02:20:16  <drac_boy> its easy to spot a hi-cube ... their roofs stick up so much higher up
02:20:18  <Supercheese> they're all sounding the same now
02:21:02  <Supercheese> Aha
02:21:09  <Supercheese> This is more of the UK-siren I was thinking of
02:21:29  <Supercheese> Alternating high and low pitches, rather than a sweep
02:21:31  <drac_boy> heres one example flygon...
02:21:50  <drac_boy> notice how the two roofs are noticeably higher than that one yellow wagon which is of the standard height clearance instead
02:21:52  <Flygon> Ah, hi-lo
02:21:58  <Flygon> I recall some happening here
02:22:00  <drac_boy> and yes they were sometimes longer chassis too
02:22:05  <Flygon> MAY or may not have been an older truck
02:22:13  <Flygon> Or an SES van, or Police Car....
02:22:27  <Flygon> Then again, their sirens are programmable
02:23:14  <Flygon> drac_boy: I see
02:23:20  <Flygon> sorry, a bit distracted
02:23:24  <Flygon> I gotta brb 10 mins
02:23:24  <Supercheese> I've never heard a high-lo siren here in the States, so it was odd going to Britain and hearing it :P
02:23:27  <Flygon> Snagging lunch
02:34:45  * drac_boy pokes flygon that its 11 minutes
02:35:32  * Supercheese has been staring at computer screens for too long
02:35:38  <Flygon> Back
02:36:19  <drac_boy> heh heh
02:36:34  * drac_boy turns supercheese's screen all bright white
02:36:39  <drac_boy> that should make you stop staring at it :P
02:37:27  <Flygon> That wasn't you that made it all white, drac_boy
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02:42:53  * Flygon shakes drac_boy
02:43:19  <Flygon> Stupid question
02:43:26  * drac_boy whacks flygon?
02:43:28  <drac_boy> :)
02:43:38  <Flygon> Thoughts of a push-pull service that uses an electric loco on one end, and high-power Diesel loco on the other?
02:44:02  <Flygon> For long distance trains that also require 160-200km/h speeds?
02:44:06  <drac_boy> no cab car in service?
02:44:26  <Flygon> Unions here would rather lose their jobs than drive a cab car
02:44:30  <Flygon> Due to level crossing issues
02:45:04  <drac_boy> I'll call them nuts unless there clearly was another electric locomotive thats sitting in the repair shed unuseable at the moment
02:45:05  <Flygon> Though, this does ignore that D/EMUs are very popular lowadays
02:45:39  <Flygon> Then again, motorized carriages probably have more protection than unmotorized...
02:47:35  <Flygon> But, more to the point, drac_boy... given that, plausibly, they could be operated in MU operation for much faster acceleration, and be clean running cruising @ electric, and run on non-electric lines... there's gotta be SOME logic :P
02:47:48  <drac_boy> actually I would say no :P
02:48:12  <drac_boy> the electric locomotive is a big risk being hauled dead behind light wagons rather than being placed behind the pilot locomotive
02:48:29  <Flygon> The intention was passenger use
02:48:45  <Flygon> Where switch around times with shunting can be a pain in the timetable
02:50:45  <Flygon> Although, personally
02:51:10  <Flygon> I think it's just smarter to use EMU's with a powercar somewhere in the consist for off-wire running
02:51:42  <Flygon> Heck, it's been done here :p
02:51:54  <Flygon> Except with batteries
02:54:13  <Flygon> I wonder if 145km/h battery running with Siemens Nexas trains is possible...
03:00:09  <Supercheese> Hmm, need to restrict this object to only being built on the sea, not on rivers...
03:00:59  <Supercheese> nearby_tile_water_class
03:01:00  <Supercheese> excellent
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03:06:40  <drac_boy> going so bye Supercheese and Flygon :)
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03:09:49  <Supercheese> Huh, the Av8 set already has support for Seaplanes and Runway Lengths required for aircraft... despite OTTD having support for neither
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04:05:43  <Flygon> OpenTTD needs a hurryon
04:05:50  <Flygon> :p
04:05:50  <Supercheese> a which?
04:06:00  <Flygon> Ah, must be a coliqual term
04:06:05  <Flygon> See, Aussie English IS different :P
04:06:17  <Supercheese> heh
04:06:30  <Flygon> It should hurry up and implement those features asap, is what "OpenTTD needs a hurryon" in length :p
04:37:32  <Supercheese> I am not understanding how multitile objects work :S
04:40:34  <Supercheese> What kind of sprite layouts need I return from the graphics callback?
04:47:03  <Supercheese> I need some example code from a set with multitile objects...
04:51:17  <Supercheese> Wow, VAST Objects code is intense
04:52:35  <Supercheese> I totally cannot follow it @_@
04:52:53  <Supercheese>
04:53:14  <Supercheese> I think it uses preprocessor directives too, which helps not :S
05:17:26  <Supercheese> Wow, their method is much tidier, way less lines of code
05:17:38  <Supercheese> way fewer*?
05:17:49  <Supercheese> far fewer*
05:25:33  <Supercheese> Wow, applying the same technique VAST Objects uses, I managed to shrink my code from 1728 lines to 494 lines, with identical functionality
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07:52:48  <Supercheese> Any AIs out there that just build eyecandy aircraft and/or watercraft, like TownCars AI and StreetTraffic do for road vehicles?
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09:00:45  <Alberth> blyp
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09:16:00  <Supercheese> Man, now we need a way for newobjects to be placed during map gen
09:16:13  <Supercheese> Pikka filed a flyspray about that IIRC
09:16:39  <Supercheese>
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09:21:38  <Alberth> during map gen....   hmm, interesting :)
09:22:43  <Supercheese> Yes, I'm going to release a test of my object set soon
09:23:01  <Supercheese> having some placed at map gen would be very neat
09:24:09  <Alberth> how do you know when to stop generating such objects?
09:25:25  * Supercheese shrugs
09:25:53  <Supercheese> It's 1:30 AM here, I'm not entirely up for serious brainstorming
09:26:08  <Supercheese> perhaps in the morning
09:27:41  <Supercheese> Before that, though, there's a bug I'd like to see fixed sometime:
09:27:59  <Supercheese> Probably not too difficult to fix, I hope
09:32:39  <planetmaker> moin
09:32:50  <Supercheese> Tidings
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09:39:30  <Alberth> hi planetmaker
09:39:49  <planetmaker> hello Alberth and Supercheese
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09:40:18  <Supercheese> and a Zuu too
09:40:27  <Zuu> Hello
09:42:08  <planetmaker> hi Zuu
09:42:23  <Zuu> Hello planetmaker :-)
09:58:40  <Terkhen> good morning
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10:05:33  <Supercheese> 'night all
10:06:44  <planetmaker> night Supercheese
10:18:20  <Terkhen> good night Supercheese
10:28:56  <peter1138> morning
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10:40:05  <Wolf01> hello o/
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10:41:16  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
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10:54:14  <peter1138> someone seems pissed with goalscript goals :p
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11:00:28  <andythenorth> moin
11:00:39  <peter1138> andythenorth
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11:01:11  <andythenorth> I don't know jack
11:01:24  <peter1138> you'd rather fleetwood mac?
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11:10:10  <drac_boy> hi
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11:17:36  <planetmaker> hi andythenorth, Wolf01, drac_boy :)
11:19:13  <Zuu> peter1138: Do you mean the someone who wants more than 255 goals?
11:19:23  <peter1138> yea
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11:19:56  <Zuu> Isn't the max 14 companies and not 16 as was used in the computation in that forum post?
11:20:03  <peter1138> 15
11:20:22  <Zuu> ok
11:21:57  <planetmaker> 15 companies + server / script (=god)
11:22:06  <Zuu> But anyway, (s)he is right that the documentation could state the limits and that some sitation might want more than 255 goals.
11:22:30  <planetmaker> hehe, yes. That was my reaction too "wtf? More than 255 goals? But yeah..."
11:23:32  <Zuu> So with 15 companies, you have 14 competitors. So 14*15 goals if you want that each company should have one for each competitor.
11:23:48  <peter1138> the goalid is 16 so it could easily be increased
11:25:40  <peter1138> 16 bits i mean
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11:31:30  <andythenorth> quak
11:31:36  <frosch123> moin
11:32:01  <V453000> moo
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11:38:59  <peter1138> was someone trying to make cb36 depend on random bits?
11:40:01  <V453000> cf 36 is power, I did
11:40:14  <peter1138> cb36 is lots of things
11:40:24  <V453000> *if
11:41:31  <V453000> hm :) I dont remember the numbers
11:44:19  <frosch123> peter1138: someone tried to shoot himself into the head?
11:44:43  <peter1138> yeah
11:45:05  <peter1138> well, i think if you tried cb36 + random bits + triggers you'd be massively desyncing :p
11:45:15  <frosch123> yup :)
11:45:41  <frosch123> well, not massively, only on join
11:46:33  <peter1138> yeah
11:46:40  <peter1138> intermittent desyncs
11:46:43  <peter1138> ...
11:46:48  <peter1138> i wonder if anyone *is* doing that... hehe
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12:23:36  <__ln__>  too bad
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12:42:06  <peter1138> hmm
12:42:52  <peter1138> so i can't support custom station layouts in case they relying on random data, as there is no random data at this stage :S
12:42:59  <peter1138> good fun
12:43:20  <andythenorth> what are you up to? o_O
12:43:28  <peter1138> bridges/stations
12:43:38  <andythenorth> hrm
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12:43:52  <andythenorth> how about stations that are bridges? :P
12:44:05  <andythenorth> hrm
12:44:15  <andythenorth> how about bridges with negative tile height? :o
12:45:23  <frosch123> peter1138: maybe the idea to attach it to the spec instead of the gfx wasn't that bad :)
12:45:30  <andythenorth> Zuu: can AI read newgrf parameters?  (answering a forum question)
12:45:45  <frosch123> no they cannot
12:45:47  <Zuu> No
12:46:52  <peter1138> frosch123, yeah, but then you can't build over the detault station
12:47:04  <peter1138> (cos the large station is heoooooooge)
12:48:01  <peter1138> i can make this work with CB 24, but our friend randomaction2s thwart that
12:48:06  <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r24908 /trunk/src (script/api/script_text.cpp strings.cpp) (2013-01-12 12:48:00 UTC)
12:48:07  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5419]: Allow GSs to pass negative integer string parameters (frosch123)
13:06:03  <Flygon> You know what'd be bitchin'?
13:06:08  <peter1138> bitche
13:06:10  <peter1138> *s
13:06:10  <Flygon> Stations over stations
13:06:13  <peter1138> bitches be bitchin
13:06:22  * drac_boy shoves a lathed soap into flygon's mouth
13:06:28  <drac_boy> mind your *** language :P heh
13:06:40  <Flygon> drac_boy: You don't know where my mouth as been
13:07:45  <Flygon> Though, obvious problem with stations-over-stations is if you have a station that goes the same direction on multiple levels...
13:08:13  <Flygon> Rather than only having diagonal-in-seperate-directions crossover...
13:08:30  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: just rewrite station specs so they're more like objects instead of hacky "advanced tile layout"?
13:11:01  <V453000> :D Flygon :D
13:11:23  <Flygon> V453000: ?
13:11:32  <V453000> stations over stations :D
13:11:53  <Flygon> I'm not sure if you're finding my idea hilarious or accepting it seriouly
13:12:04  <V453000> hillarious
13:12:14  <V453000> im quite sure :)
13:12:25  <Flygon> I'm being serious
13:12:31  <drac_boy> V453000 theres many places where indeed platforms intersect each others (and no its not limited to tube stations)
13:12:54  <V453000> this is a game...
13:12:58  <drac_boy> or other times where eg there is a upper and lower platform (northeast usa corridor has a few...they call them "high island" obviously)
13:13:06  <Flygon> Of course, 100% flexible rail over rail would be ideal, but I can't see people wanting to rewrite huge parts of OpenTTD
13:13:30  <Flygon> drac_boy: Do Tram+Train examples count? :P
13:13:42  <Flygon> Otherwise, there's plans to build just those stations here
13:14:01  <Flygon> As in, to make two seperate lines share stations
13:14:13  <V453000> a hacky black hole underground station which looks like a tunnel would be nice though
13:14:20  <V453000> would fill your ideas as well
13:14:51  <V453000> 1 platform 1 tunnel, just like normal tunnels
13:15:10  <Flygon> Oh, that patch
13:15:35  <drac_boy> flygon theres been some cases where eg the terminal is actually the second floor of a building and part of first floor is taken up by semi-indoor bus/tram halt (other part turned over to shops/etc) ... and yes the rails were on thse elevated lines
13:15:48  <drac_boy> still a few examples left on amtrak's route by now afaik
13:16:12  <Flygon> drac_boy: Here, well... here, same thing happens, hahahahahahaha
13:16:15  <peter1138> and what about the ground floor?
13:16:21  <Flygon> Actuaaaaalllly
13:16:35  <Flygon> Flinders Street and Southern Cross have had several railway lines underneath railway lines
13:16:51  <Flygon> And Southern Cross currently has a HUGE bus station under the railway station
13:17:12  <V453000> none, it is in a tunnel :) doesnt need ground floor or any connection to what is above
13:17:29  <Flygon> The underground railways were used for goods and mail transfers
13:17:39  <V453000> some custom tunnel sprites would be handy though :)
13:17:44  <Flygon> There also used to be a shooting range under Flinders Street
13:17:48  <peter1138> i was asking drac_boy
13:17:53  <Flygon> Welcome to Australia
13:18:03  <V453000> ah
13:18:06  <V453000> :)
13:18:59  <drac_boy> this is what I mean flygon Pix/The Chicagoan leaving Cleveland 12_67c.jpg ground level is visible more or less ... train is on elevation level 1 just coming out of the station shortly out of the photo .. and the highway that fly over the track is on elevation level 2 basically
13:19:53  <Flygon> Ah, yeah
13:20:00  <Flygon> That stuff happens here
13:20:03  <Flygon> Constantly
13:20:28  <peter1138> hmm, i found some routing restriction patch
13:21:08  <Flygon> Even moreso in Sydney, due to only having 2-3 level crossings across the whole network... so designing stations with no regard for roads makes some sense :P
13:21:35  <drac_boy> flygon btw theres one small interesting thing...
13:23:28  <drac_boy> when C&NW (passenger-minded railroad) started running not so many commuter trains .. there was one particular town where eg C&NW was on raised right of way but the local commuters was parallel on ground level with many half-intersection road crossings ... everyone cooperated together in moving the ground rails onto the elevated right of way .. and this in turn allowed some road widening at same time
13:24:10  <drac_boy> even then some other places had to completely relocate their rails to outside of the town due to lack of gradeway anymore ( some cases even express trains were crawling right down the middle of residental streets!)
13:24:37  <Flygon> Oh geeze O_o
13:24:44  <Flygon> Yeah, that sounds painful...
13:24:59  <Flygon> Victorian Railways here did the same thing in the... 1860s
13:25:05  <drac_boy> 20+ years sure make a difference :)  1890 original rails laid on street ... 1936 its still there but trains are lot heavier and longer so ummm yeah
13:25:44  <drac_boy> nothing to contrast it like a little 4-4-0 with three coaches verus a 2-8-2 with eleven heavyweight carriages :)
13:26:12  <Flygon> They didn't complete a viaduct before aquiring the two private railways, so they did good transfers in the middle of the night (low traffic) by using a railway-grade tramway (eg. grooved rails, but everything else is railway grade) to go between Spencer Street/Southern Cross and Fllinders Street :P
13:26:40  <Flygon> A town in Queensland has a mainline railway going down the middle of the street (in a road lane)
13:26:44  <Flygon> The line's purpose?
13:27:01  <Flygon> Interstate or long distance (Queensland is HUGE) freight
13:27:25  <Flygon> Cue traffic disruptions due to 1-2 kilometer long freight train clogging up intersections :p
13:28:09  <drac_boy> flygon btw Chicago for being a huge sprawl has some issue with having to route freights through large residental sections
13:28:20  <Flygon> Also, anything with skinny tyres are screwed due to standard rails, not tramway rails :p
13:28:24  <drac_boy> then again many of the routes dates the very early original day of Chicago :-s
13:28:40  <Flygon> Ah, I'm familar with Chicago's street railways
13:28:53  <Flygon> Seeing a train obey road traffic rules is sort of charming :p
13:29:11  <oskari892> Flygon: Is there a video of them in YouTube?
13:29:15  <Flygon> Yes
13:29:16  <oskari892> Would like to see
13:29:19  <Flygon> Uuu
13:29:20  <Flygon> Uuuh*
13:29:22  <Flygon> Lemme find it
13:29:33  <drac_boy> flygon also its where they are starting to implent a lot of "undercut and cover" where eg the ground level rail is moved to just right underneath the ground surface and a road (or open air 'access' instead) is left on top
13:29:51  <Flygon> ...I said railway YouTube, not trams from when Roger Rabbit was a star
13:29:54  <drac_boy> at least one instance of this thats already been done removed quite a LOT of non-signalled road crosscrossings
13:30:14  <drac_boy> crisscrossing*
13:30:29  <Flygon> oskari892
13:31:40  <Flygon> It's like a giant tram that never takes passengers :D
13:31:56  <oskari892> Flygon: Thanks :)
13:32:09  <Flygon> I'm baffled by one thing
13:32:19  <Flygon> Two pantographs a carriage O_o
13:32:39  <Flygon> Here, it's two pantographs for 3 carriages (one's a trailer)...
13:34:12  <peter1138> looks highly impractical
13:34:25  <oskari892> Flygon: Video of freight train there?
13:34:30  <Flygon> Uh
13:34:32  <Flygon> Lemme find it
13:34:42  <Flygon> Never tried to find videos of the Queensland freightliner
13:35:30  <Flygon> Gah, forgot it's name...
13:35:35  <Flygon> Was in North Queensland
13:36:45  <Flygon>
13:36:51  <Flygon> oskari892
13:36:56  <oskari892> Thx
13:37:53  <Flygon> Oh, interesting
13:37:58  <Flygon> It's also a passenger railwa
13:38:01  <Flygon> I forgot that part
13:38:24  <Flygon> But you can see why length is an issue :P
13:39:02  <Flygon> It. Doesn't. End. @_@
13:40:48  <oskari892> Danish version
13:41:53  <Flygon> ...
13:42:02  <oskari892> EMD Sounds :)
13:42:06  <Flygon> And right below is some rather freaky 'Recommended for me's @_@
13:42:52  <Flygon> What gauge is that, oskari892?
13:43:21  <oskari892> Normal gauge
13:43:51  <oskari892> As Danish do :)
13:44:05  <Flygon> 1435mm, then
13:44:09  <oskari892> Yes
13:44:17  <Flygon> At least you guys got your mess sorted out :p
13:44:34  <Flygon> We have at least three different gauges here :p
13:44:52  <Flygon> 1600mm, 1435mm, and 762mm... though, the last is only used for tourist railways as of 1960ish
13:45:56  <Flygon> Queensland has 1067mm and 1435mm, South Australia has 1067mm (historically), 1600mm, 1435mm, and some minor railways with 762mm... basically
13:46:04  <Flygon> Huge huge huge huge mess in Australia :p
13:46:27  <oskari892> We have 1524 in Finland...
13:46:41  <oskari892> Unfortunately
13:46:57  <Flygon> So instead, pretty Diesel trains that look slower on video :P
13:47:00  <Flygon> 1524?
13:47:06  <oskari892> Yes, 1524 mm
13:47:13  <Flygon> Ouch
13:47:18  <Flygon> I share the pain
13:47:21  <oskari892> Russia has 1520
13:47:24  <oskari892> mm
13:47:27  <Flygon> DG rail with 1600mm is also near impossible
13:47:40  <Flygon> 80km/h for the BG side if there is
13:47:52  <Flygon> 4mm is barely any difference
13:48:03  <oskari892> If we had 1435 mm normal gauge, we wouldn't be in "island"
13:48:08  <Flygon> You get more variance with wooden sleepers
13:48:13  <Flygon> Again, I know that pain :p
13:48:23  <oskari892> Pain in the ass for new train companies
13:48:28  <Flygon> Victoria is Australia's only real holdout in keeping 1600mm
13:48:53  <Flygon> It's mauled freight operations, and been a historic pain for passengers
13:49:06  <oskari892> Couldn't buy 1435 mm used stock from other european countries :P
13:49:21  * drac_boy still likes 1000 but wouldn't comment
13:49:22  <Flygon> But our network is so integrated and expansive, that it's too expensive to regauge...
13:49:23  <oskari892> ...without extensive mods for bogies and axles
13:49:34  <Flygon> I fail to see the extensive mods
13:49:51  <Flygon> Then again, things are designed differently there...
13:50:09  <Flygon> Here, practically everything is designed to be regauged, as a matter of course
13:50:25  <Flygon> Even steam locomotives have been designed for regauged (and even regauged regardless)
13:50:49  <Flygon> (eg. SAR (South Australia) converting 1067mm locomotives to 1600mm because of wartime shortages)
13:51:17  <Jasperthecat1>
13:51:28  <Flygon> (still worked perfectly... probably would have resembled Brunel's 216...whatevermm steam loco's, though :p)
13:52:25  <Flygon> Jasper: Quite slow for Australia's fastest train :p
13:52:45  <Flygon> And the world's fastest NG train... until Japan finally breaks 210-220km/h
13:53:30  <Flygon> I just want V/Line to throw caution into the wind and whack a VLocity out @ over 220km/h on the Geelong line just to 1-up Queensland :p
13:53:52  <Flygon> Damned things are designed for 200km/h... suuuurely you won't blow up the transmission going faster :B
13:58:31  <drac_boy> going off for bit now
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13:59:09  <oskari892>
13:59:21  <oskari892> Flashing red traffic lights
14:00:09  <Jasperthecat1> That's where i live, Indiana.
14:01:45  <Flygon> Here, if traffic lights flash...
14:01:49  <Flygon> ...well, chaos
14:02:19  <Flygon> God forbid there's trams involved
14:02:26  <Jasperthecat1> Any videos in Bloomington?
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14:03:14  <oskari892> Flygon, speaking of flashing traffic lights:
14:03:23  <Flygon> God forbid this flashes
14:03:23  <oskari892> Traffic light disco :P
14:04:58  <Flygon> (the white arrow becomes a T-signal)
14:05:46  <Flygon> Ehh
14:06:02  <Flygon> oskari892, best traffic lights ever, in my opinion?
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14:06:30  <Flygon> Can't find a vid
14:07:17  <Flygon> But this should be good for the savvy :)
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14:55:40  <peter1138> non-path signals should be an advanced option :p
14:59:54  <V453000> lmfao
15:01:41  <frosch123> maybe you can also attach it to the user name
15:02:00  <frosch123> only block or only path depending on whether the username starts with v or not
15:03:54  <Alberth> perhaps use the domain he logs into as well :p
15:07:14  <planetmaker> pffft! ;-)
15:08:44  <peter1138> i'm kinda serious
15:08:48  <peter1138> they cause issues for noobies
15:09:13  <frosch123> yup, advanced setting "pbs only", "both", "block only"
15:09:38  <frosch123> but then it should not be a gui setting, but a game setting
15:09:51  <frosch123> hmm, or maybe not
15:09:57  <frosch123> might be troublesome for servers
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15:16:18  <Terkhen> making it as a game setting would raise hell in servers :P
15:16:44  <Terkhen> it should be a client side option that only affects the GUI
15:17:21  <frosch123> basically more settings to the signal cycle setting
15:17:36  <frosch123> "path only even in gui" and "block only even in gui"
15:20:18  <Terkhen> true, that should do it :P
15:22:23  <michi_cc> Maybe just a "show/hide pre-signals" is enough, the plain block signal is okay and has some aesthetic advantages.
15:25:08  <frosch123> the difference between what is displayed in gui and what is cycled with ctrl makes these settings kind of hard :s
15:25:16  <frosch123> obviously ctrl should be a subset of the gui
15:26:52  <V453000> how about enhancing singal gui for basic and advanced
15:27:06  <V453000> if you put presignals to advanced, noobies will see that they can take that later
15:29:59  <V453000> honestly basic usage of presignals isnt hard, the descriptions in the gui are well written
15:30:26  <V453000> so it really is just about being lazy y/n to read that and try, I think basic/advanced "info" is sufficient and rather easy fix to your issue
15:31:08  <peter1138> it's not hard, but path signals are superior
15:31:38  <frosch123> hmm, maybe the cycle setting should be changed to "do not cycle between path and block signals"
15:31:43  <V453000> not for everything, all signals have their usage
15:31:54  <peter1138> i didn't say for everything
15:32:03  <frosch123> changing a block signal to a path signal via ctrl is kind of weird if it is set to "cycle path only"
15:32:11  <V453000> path signals could be constructed by ctrl clicking frosch123, ctrl click to make a semaphore is never used anyway
15:32:13  <peter1138> the basic pre-signal layout is handled better by path signals
15:32:32  <frosch123> V453000: i mean the ctrl click on already build signals
15:32:33  <V453000> yes but it is a perfect opportunity to learn pre-signals, too
15:32:45  <frosch123> and the adv. setting which controls what signals are being cycled by that
15:32:47  <V453000> frosch123: I know, but then you need a quick option to build the other cycle group
15:33:03  <frosch123> no why? what is the relation?
15:33:27  <V453000> I thought you wanted to like cycle in block, or cycle in path
15:33:36  <frosch123> i just said that it makes no sense if the setting is set to "path only" that it changes block to path
15:33:58  <V453000> well yeah
15:34:00  <frosch123> so the setting should have values "cycle through both" and "cycle blocks and cycle path"
15:34:28  <V453000> I mean like having 2 cycles, <block>, <path>. Ctrl click on signal means cycle, as now. Ctrl click when building creates one of the 2 groups, while normal click the other group
15:34:31  <frosch123> + "separately" in the latter
15:34:51  <V453000> yep
15:35:06  <V453000> pretty much what I mean, just with the addition of control when constructing
15:35:49  <V453000> see my point?
15:35:53  <frosch123> so another setting for ctrl on build: "toggle semaphore/light", "toggle path/block"
15:36:07  <V453000> no, scrap that imo
15:36:17  <V453000> ctrl on build is currently useless
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15:36:23  <drac_boy> hi
15:36:28  <V453000> you usually want to build only one, or only the other on the whole network
15:36:37  <V453000> that should be very sufficient to choose just in the gui
15:36:38  <frosch123> no idea, i only play light
15:36:45  <V453000> me too
15:36:47  <drac_boy> V453000 what this about now?
15:36:57  <frosch123> i do not even try to understand why someone might want to build a semaphore
15:37:08  <drac_boy> oh
15:37:09  <V453000> but if in whatever case someone wants to use semaphores, then he just switches to them
15:37:15  <V453000> me neither, but you know ... :)
15:37:31  * drac_boy always does semaphores except for some express or electric lines
15:37:35  <V453000> either way, due to that I think ctrl+click on build could be utilized a lot better
15:37:38  <drac_boy> cheaper and more visible
15:37:54  <V453000> and with making ctrl+click building a path signal, would be a great step in the right direction I think
15:38:06  <frosch123> "cheaper"?
15:38:12  <peter1138> there is no difference in cost
15:38:16  <drac_boy> frosch123 yeah
15:41:17  <V453000> I think basic block signal should be included in the path cycle btw
15:41:47  <frosch123> V453000: there is currently the setting "Default signal type to use"
15:41:56  <V453000> I know
15:42:01  <frosch123> it can be "block signal", "path", "oneway path"
15:42:06  <frosch123> what signal to build when pressing ctrl?
15:42:14  <V453000> 1way path imo
15:42:19  <V453000> 2way path is least used
15:42:32  <V453000> and 2way path signals create major confusion for new players
15:42:38  <V453000> becuase they seem being 1way visually
15:44:57  <frosch123> <- is that the conclusion?
15:45:46  <V453000> looks very elegant to me
15:46:04  <planetmaker> #3 sounds 'best' in this context
15:46:34  <planetmaker> as it basically only moves the place where the cycling is given as setting. And changes the GUI now at the same time, too
15:46:34  <V453000> I think they are all at once pm
15:46:34  <frosch123> so no fancy "include standard block in path cycle or gui"? :)
15:46:53  <V453000> it is a detail frosch123, idk if it is the best suggestion
15:47:03  <peter1138> sheesh, i was only making an innocent comment :S
15:47:19  <frosch123> peter1138: this is not tt-forums off-topic
15:47:24  <frosch123> people read what you say
15:47:57  <peter1138> noob: "where have the signals gone?"
15:48:23  <drac_boy> mouse user: where is the signal dialog?
15:48:23  <frosch123> where have the diff settings gone?
15:48:27  <drac_boy> :)
15:48:32  <V453000> the block signal in the cycle, idk. it would have to be the 3rd cycle (on build - 1way PBS, 1 ctrlclick - 2way PBS, 2nd ctrlclick, block) sounds odd
15:48:47  <planetmaker> current users will learn. New users not confused. All win
15:48:49  <peter1138> i have a Vehicle*
15:48:53  <peter1138> how do get to gcache?
15:49:03  <V453000> exactly pm :)
15:49:16  <frosch123> isn't there some method in the vehicle?
15:49:35  <frosch123> peter1138: GetGroundVehicleCache
15:50:31  <frosch123> ctrl-cycling through normal block in path cycle makes no sense, since you cannot tell what comes after the normal block :)
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15:50:47  <V453000> very true frosch123
15:50:49  <frosch123> and gui it would only safe some space, but not make stuff easier
15:51:12  <frosch123> if people can tell the difference between path and normal block, they can also get the presignals
15:52:15  <V453000> sounds nice
15:53:16  <drac_boy> frosch123 thats maybe messing up with stations a bit when people wonder why they can't make the train wait outside the junction? :->
15:54:11  <peter1138> drac_boy, eh?
15:54:22  <V453000> didnt get that eitehr
15:54:24  <V453000> either
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15:55:45  <drac_boy> V453000 you know that one where you put the signal with small white boards on them at each platform for the station then the one with yellow board before the junction facing the station. (although mind you I've seen some cases where player got first part right but missed the second part tho...meh)
15:56:17  <V453000> you mean people combine presignals with PBS
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15:56:45  <planetmaker> of course they try. Anything stupid which can be done, will be done
15:56:46  <drac_boy> no..just presignal alone
15:56:56  <planetmaker> and exit signals are also put at station exits. Sensible or not :-)
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15:57:10  <peter1138> see, precisely why they should only be using pathsignals
15:57:15  <V453000> truly various things happen :)
15:57:20  <planetmaker> signals are not easy. Yes, peter1138
15:57:30  <planetmaker> exactly :-)
15:57:46  <V453000> that isnt an argument peter, people being dumb doesnt mean they cant be exposed to more advanced way :)
15:58:08  <V453000> switching between them in gui settings is great though
15:58:09  <peter1138> in this case it's not more advanced
15:58:19  <peter1138> it's less efficient and more complex
15:58:34  <V453000> it forces people to use brain
15:58:36  <V453000> pbs doesnt
16:00:36  <V453000> guess I should say requires instead of forces :)
16:01:13  <Terkhen> you say that as if it was an advantage for most people :P
16:01:42  <Terkhen> using the brain is overrated, and confusing :)
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16:02:11  <V453000> "if any of following signals is green, be green" is not rocket science
16:02:42  <planetmaker> V453000, the difficulty is to understand "following" ;-)
16:02:51  <V453000> that is true
16:03:08  <peter1138> and then they go and use an entry signal, 2 combo signals, and an exit signal for the route back out...
16:03:22  <V453000> mhm :D
16:03:28  <burtybob> Is there anyway to get more information about "received invalid packet type 0 from Bot Name"... All I sent was: packet type of admin join packet type
16:03:31  <V453000> but they learn sooner or later none the less
16:03:53  <frosch123> does it derail the discussion if i ask what shall be the default? :p "path", "block", "both" :p
16:03:58  <V453000> perhaps we could look at the gui hint-strings if they could be made more obvious, but they felt comprehensible last time I checked
16:04:15  <peter1138> frosch123, no, that's easy, path ;p
16:04:36  <burtybob> I agree with peter
16:04:47  <V453000> I of course dont
16:04:48  <peter1138> i remember when the path signals patch removed all the other signal types :)
16:04:51  <V453000> as you know
16:05:31  <peter1138> although i don't think it had non-passable signals then either
16:05:58  <peter1138> and some people are still waiting for non-safe-waiting point non-passable 'signals
16:06:01  <peter1138> '
16:06:55  <V453000> I still think that behaviour of block signals is most intuitive for newcomers
16:07:09  <V453000> where is a safe waiting spot and where isnt is a bit confusing at start
16:08:02  <drac_boy> mm
16:10:07  <V453000> are shown reserved paths default or not?
16:10:15  <planetmaker> not default
16:10:27  <burtybob> I thought when I last insstalled vanilla it was set as on
16:10:37  <V453000> well that explains the confusion about pbs
16:11:42  <burtybob> Anyone know much about communicating with the Admin port?
16:11:43  <V453000> block empty yes/no is clear logic, path empty yes/no without shown reserved paths not quite
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16:15:00  <Zuu> perhaps make the show path a tri-state option with a middle option "show paths if path signals exist", which would enable showing reserved paths when there is at least one path signal.
16:15:20  <Zuu> Although, I'm not really sure that will be good.
16:15:24  <planetmaker> burtybob, you better ask non-meta questions
16:15:55  <burtybob> non-meta?
16:16:21  <Zuu> @get 3
16:16:21  <DorpsGek> Zuu: Don't ask to ask, just ask
16:16:43  <Zuu> Eg, let us know you question, and then maybe someone knows the answer.
16:17:04  <V453000> Zuu: the show paths isnt exactly eyecandiful :) it isnt always nice to have it
16:17:24  <burtybob> Is there anyway to get more information about "received invalid packet type 0 from Bot Name"... All I sent was: packet type of admin join packet type
16:17:35  <V453000> im wondering if it would be wise to add that to the gui signal option as well :d but im also afraid if it wouldnt become too big
16:18:17  <Zuu> Unless you are on a a small screen, the signal GUI is not very big.
16:19:06  <Zuu> burtybob: You could lookup that error message in the OpenTTD code
16:19:13  <V453000> indeed
16:19:48  <burtybob> I tried it just the default for not matching any other admin packet but having an open tcp connection
16:20:06  <V453000> and since it pretty much is the most important building gui, it is probably safe to add a few things to it even if it increases size ... perhaps a button "use semaphores", turning all signal icons into semaphores is also a good idea to save space?
16:20:13  <V453000> frosch123: ^
16:21:10  <burtybob> Sorry if the connection is closed..
16:21:30  <burtybob> hmm think I may have an idea now, thanks :)
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16:24:17  <peter1138> people use the signal gui?
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16:28:13  <drac_boy> I do all times peter1138, its the only place the mouse can find it anyway
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16:53:38  <frosch123> V453000: reserved tracks should go transparency options
16:53:48  <V453000> brilliant idea
16:53:53  <frosch123> not new
16:54:08  <V453000> but I absolutely agree with that :) indeed has nothing to do in signal gui
16:57:01  <peter1138> should be a removed, it's a debugging thing ;p
16:57:48  <V453000> so you support people using pbs,, but blindly? :D That sounds pretty evil to me
17:01:40  <planetmaker> ah... but players want that regularily, I think
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17:20:37  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24909 trunk/src/strings.cpp (2013-01-12 17:20:31 UTC)
17:20:38  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Remove implicit bool -> integer conversion.
17:21:36  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24910 /trunk/src (strings.cpp table/strgen_tables.h) (2013-01-12 17:21:30 UTC)
17:21:37  <DorpsGek> -Fix: [strgen] Description of plural form 3 was incorrect.
17:29:09  <peter1138> urgh
17:29:16  <peter1138> i hate delving into pathfinders :p
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17:43:24  <peter1138> i need the vehicle in npf.cpp CanEnterTile()
17:43:28  <peter1138> not sure if it's available...
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17:49:38  <Alberth> hmm, using python3 may have been a bit too optimistic :p
17:49:55  <peter1138> hmm?
17:50:45  <Alberth> trying to make a web application, but the program fails under Python 3.2 while it runs with Python 2.7
17:51:10  <Alberth> despite claims that it support 2.5+ and 3.X  :)
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18:01:16  <peter1138> ah
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18:15:59  <peter1138> hmm
18:16:01  <peter1138> guis
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18:45:34  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24911 /trunk/src/lang (4 files in 2 dirs) (2013-01-12 18:45:24 UTC)
18:45:35  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:36  <DorpsGek> bulgarian - 118 changes by logi
18:45:37  <DorpsGek> romanian - 9 changes by mariush
18:45:38  <DorpsGek> serbian - 2 changes by voodoo84
18:45:39  <DorpsGek> tamil - 5 changes by aswn
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18:59:00  <MinchinWeb> I have a rather strange bug: I have two version of the same GRF. OpenTTD shows and loads only the newer version, except if I click on "see Readme", in which case it pulls up the readme from the older version. Suggestions?
19:00:44  <frosch123> are both grfs inside a tar?
19:00:55  <frosch123> do the tars have different names?
19:00:59  <MinchinWeb> yes, but seperate tars
19:01:20  <frosch123> hmm, actually the path inside the tar matters
19:01:23  <frosch123> not the tar filename
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19:01:34  <MinchinWeb> both tars are named something differen
19:01:40  <MinchinWeb> different*
19:01:57  <MinchinWeb> they both hold everything in a folder and that inside folder has the name name
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19:08:20  <frosch123> bananas tars? and which?
19:08:35  <MinchinWeb> homemade, on Windows with 7zip
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19:08:51  <MinchinWeb> I'm trying to get everything working before uploading to Bananas
19:08:59  <frosch123> ah, make sure the path inside the tar is different hten
19:09:18  <frosch123> i.e. always include a directory in the tar, which contains the version number or similar
19:09:41  <frosch123> ottd only sees the filename in the tar, not the tarfilename
19:09:53  <frosch123> so, if the tars have the same structure inside, ottd cannot distinguish them
19:10:47  <frosch123> though maybe we should fix that somewhen... since the old 32bpp stuff is gone there is no reason for it anymore
19:11:23  <frosch123> (i believe)
19:11:35  <planetmaker> oh, that was the reason?
19:11:47  <MinchinWeb> well, renaming the internal folder seems to have done the trick
19:11:51  <MinchinWeb> Thanks!!
19:11:56  <frosch123> planetmaker: yeah, the weird "sprites" directory :)
19:12:12  <planetmaker> omg... yes, then we should rather remove that...
19:12:20  <MinchinWeb> (although it does like strange behaviour if you don't know the history)
19:12:39  <planetmaker> MinchinWeb, without doubt, yes, it's confusing in these cases
19:12:44  <frosch123> planetmaker: i am not sure about obg, obs and obm, and their paths
19:12:46  <frosch123> though
19:13:07  <frosch123> hmm.. but basesets from bananas work.. so there should be no issue
19:24:45  <peter1138> in a Cmd, is tile guaranteed to be valid?
19:24:54  <frosch123> yes
19:25:47  <frosch123> if (tile != 0 && (tile >= MapSize() || (!IsValidTile(tile) && (flags & DC_ALL_TILES) == 0))) return CMD_ERROR; <- to be precise :)
19:26:13  <peter1138> cool
19:26:27  <peter1138> updating an old patch which includes IsValidTile
19:26:33  <peter1138> and i thought i remember somethign changing there
19:28:37  <MinchinWeb> frosh123: did you see my update on this issue?
19:28:57  <MinchinWeb> I have hope that it might be an easy fix
19:29:35  <frosch123> yes, it was on my list of things to do last weekend :)
19:29:42  <MinchinWeb> :)
19:30:32  <MinchinWeb> I think I spent two days trying to figure out what was wrong, only to discover it was the wrong line
19:30:57  <MinchinWeb> thanks for keeping on top of it
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20:08:33  <peter1138> hmm, so updating a gui
20:08:36  <peter1138> from old style
20:09:37  <frosch123> rewrite :p
20:10:08  <frosch123> how "old style" though?
20:10:17  <frosch123> pre-nested or even pre-window class?
20:10:44  <peter1138> pre-window class
20:11:04  <frosch123> :)
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20:15:27  <drac_boy> hi
20:16:07  <Supercheese> Tidings
20:16:40  <Snail> hi
20:17:19  * Supercheese wonders if "tidings" can even be used as a greeting like that...
20:17:31  <Sacro> good tidings
20:17:50  <Supercheese> the dictionary says it means "news; information"
20:17:53  <Supercheese> Good news
20:18:08  <Supercheese> ... well, it sounds cool :P
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20:23:56  <Markk> Tidning is "newspaper", tidnings can't really be used alone, should be used like "tidningsutdelare" (newspaper deliverer) or "tidningshållare" (newspaper stand).
20:24:31  <Supercheese> Maybe I should just stick to Latin
20:24:35  <Supercheese> Salve, amice
20:24:54  <Markk> Swedish is quite fucked up.
20:25:45  <drac_boy> btw just wondering about it but...
20:26:07  <drac_boy> if you compile openttd without libpng on linux..that only leaves pcx alone for screenshots right?
20:27:07  <Markk> Supercheese: As a greeting, you can use "Hej" (Hi), "God dag" (Good day, but in a quite formal way, it's not really used in daily speech anymore) or "Hallå" (Hello, but that is mostly used as a general greeting when you come in to a room, and usually not for one person).
20:27:35  <Markk> Supercheese: So the one I would recommend is "Hej".
20:27:45  <Markk> Supercheese: Where did you get tidnings from?
20:27:49  <Supercheese> English...
20:28:01  <Supercheese> "I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be for all people"
20:28:04  <planetmaker> hehe :-)
20:28:07  <Markk> oh
20:28:09  <Markk> :D
20:28:10  <Supercheese> :D
20:28:26  <Markk> I thought you typed "tidnings" and not "tidings".
20:28:41  <Markk> I'm sorry for the confusing, mate. :)
20:28:51  <Supercheese> Understandable, since the words seem to have the same definition
20:29:06  <Supercheese> news / that which contains news
20:29:11  <Markk> Ah
20:31:57  <andythenorth> hmm
20:31:57  <andythenorth> words
20:33:01  <Supercheese> I like "word" in Spanish, "Palabra"
20:33:04  <Supercheese> "for the tongue"
20:33:24  <Supercheese> or is it "lip"
20:33:37  <Supercheese> yes, "for the lip"
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20:35:01  <Supercheese> or plural, "for the lips"
20:35:13  <Markk> Anyone from Ireland here?
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20:35:25  <Markk> Real Ireland, RoI, not NI.
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20:40:14  * andythenorth writes no code
20:40:17  <MinchinWeb> I have an Irish passport, but have never been there :(
20:41:44  <Supercheese> No code, eh? NoAI or NoGo? :P
20:42:44  <Markk> MinchinWeb: How come?
20:43:25  <MinchinWeb> I have Irish citizenship, but wasn't born there
20:43:29  <Markk> ah
20:43:36  <Markk> Where are you living?
20:43:40  <MinchinWeb> Canada
20:43:54  <MinchinWeb> and the far side from Ireland
20:46:23  <Markk> ah
20:46:24  <Markk> Nice
20:46:35  <Markk> No idea to go to Ireland then mate.
20:46:39  <MinchinWeb> you?
20:46:46  <Markk> You live in a perfectly fine country as it is
20:46:51  <Markk> I wanna go to Canada some day.
20:47:01  <MinchinWeb> where do you live?
20:47:06  <Markk> Sweden.
20:47:18  <Supercheese> long trip
20:47:23  <Markk> Canada and Sweden is quite similar in many things.
20:47:36  <Markk> We're both normal and healthy countries.
20:47:43  <MinchinWeb> ture :)
20:47:52  <MinchinWeb> are you far enough north to see the Northern Lights?
20:47:55  <Markk> Not like USA.
20:48:04  <Markk> We have that down here as well.
20:48:11  <MinchinWeb> sweet
20:48:12  <Markk> But not as much as in northen Sweden.
20:48:18  <Markk> I live down in Stockholm.
20:48:24  <Markk> Quite far south.
20:49:00  <MinchinWeb> you can see them here on the right night if you can get away from the city lights; absolutly gorgeous
20:49:18  <Markk> Nice
20:49:44  <MinchinWeb> I plan on visiting Ireland one day, just haven't finalized the plans yet
20:50:08  <Markk> Okey :)
20:50:13  <Markk> I lived there for a while.
20:50:19  <Zuu> I spent 10 weeks in the western part of Canada about 3 years ago.
20:50:20  <MinchinWeb> both sides of the family come from there (both sides actaully managed to own the same house somehow 100 years apart)
20:50:32  <Markk> haha
20:50:33  <Markk> cool
20:50:35  <MinchinWeb> Zuu: Vancouver?
20:50:38  <Zuu> Yep
20:50:49  <Markk> I learned to appreciate Sweden quite a lot during the time I lived in RoI.
20:51:03  <Zuu> THat was my base location although I also made a weekend trip to Calgary and Sasaskatoon.
20:51:24  <MinchinWeb> Zuu: what did you think of the flat paraire?
20:51:52  <MinchinWeb> I have trouble explaining it to people and having them understand just how flat it can be
20:52:50  <frosch123> as flat as a 2kx2k map on "very flat"?
20:52:59  <MinchinWeb> yeah
20:53:09  <frosch123> must be boring to build railroad there
20:53:17  <Zuu> MinchinWeb: It was flat. Was going by a friend on the highway north of Saskatoon.
20:54:31  <MinchinWeb> frosh123: and no trees either
20:55:34  <MinchinWeb> actaully, the railroad history is fascinating here. Basically they built the railways first and the railway's plan to stay in business was to settle the plains and then haul grain out and farm supplies in
20:56:20  <Zuu> I wanted to take a bus from Vancouver to Calgary that took all day just to get a better idea of the country than going by aircraft, but didn't was motivated enough to get up that early in the morning.
20:57:10  <MinchinWeb> you're daring to consider the Greyhound (the intercity bus) takes forever
20:57:42  <Rubidium> it's better than VIA ;)
20:58:16  <MinchinWeb> VIA doesn't even connect Calgary and Vancouver!
20:58:21  <Rubidium> but yes... Calgary - Vancouver is a long way, especially if you go via Jasper
20:58:58  <MinchinWeb> they say VIA takes longer to go across the prairies now than it did when the first built the line!
20:59:48  <andythenorth> Vancouver - Calgary is a couple-day trip, or at least when I did it
21:00:57  <MinchinWeb> yeah. Vancouver - Calgary is ~10 hours in the car driving (which is the fastest way if you don't want to fly)
21:01:03  <drac_boy> thats probably because its easier to get business selling tourist-like sleeper rather than a daily train
21:01:31  <drac_boy> at one point during gov cash crunch there was only 3 transcontinental trains per much better these days >_<
21:02:07  <MinchinWeb> drac_boy, have you ever riden VIA?
21:02:22  <Rubidium> andythenorth: it's only like 15-16 hours ;)
21:02:27  <MinchinWeb> out west here, the prices makes it to expensive for anything more than a luxury holiday
21:02:31  <Rubidium> by bus
21:04:22  <MinchinWeb> I had a friend ride the bus one time from Cleveland to Edmonton. I think it took him 4 days.
21:05:48  <drac_boy> MinchinWeb yeah I've gone VIA too many times to count
21:06:01  <drac_boy> but never tried centeral canada yet tho
21:07:21  <Rubidium> MinchinWeb: then he must have slept on the bus
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21:07:56  <MinchinWeb> yup, Greyhound does overnight runs like that
21:09:12  <Rubidium> 11 hours is already too long on those busses
21:09:26  <Rubidium> although... they're more comfortable when they are mostly empty instead of fully packed
21:10:22  <MinchinWeb> sometimes the routes are crazy: if you try and take the bus from Edmonton to Salt Lake, they send you via Vancover and it's ~44 hours
21:10:32  <MinchinWeb> you can drive that in ~17 hours
21:14:04  <Rubidium> MinchinWeb: crazy? They just have no connection from Calgary to the US
21:14:18  <MinchinWeb> nothing across Montana
21:14:35  <MinchinWeb> so there's a gap between Leftbridge and Idaho Falls
21:16:10  <Rubidium> MinchinWeb: more Lethbridge to Butte
21:17:08  <Rubidium> there is a bus from Salt Lake City to Butte (although maybe not Greyhound, but Greyhound's site shows it)
21:18:20  <Rubidium> though 50 hours might be a bit long
21:18:42  <MinchinWeb> I see that... but there's still no way I'm walking from Leftbridge to Butte :)
21:19:37  <Rubidium> it's only twice as long by foot than by bus
21:22:27  <Rubidium> not that the route when going from Edmonton to Salt Lake City by plane is any less "crazy"
21:22:35  <andythenorth> bye
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21:22:42  <MinchinWeb> I know it
21:22:51  <MinchinWeb> they used to have direct flights - 2 1/2 hours
21:23:19  <MinchinWeb> last time I looked up a flight between the two, it went through Seattle and Long Beach
21:23:31  <MinchinWeb> ~ 17 hours travel time
21:24:06  <Rubidium> I'm seeing flights with just one transfer; Seattle, Phoenix, Denver, Chicage or Minneapolis
21:25:18  <MinchinWeb> look for something in the next week to come up with some crazier options :)
21:36:27  <Kitty> why is it passengers to oil rigs are so hard to make profitable?
21:36:48  <drac_boy> kitty because its not normally meant to be a sole traffic method I suspect :)
21:38:43  <Supercheese> Because helicopters are slow and small?
21:39:05  <drac_boy> HEH :)
21:39:15  <michi_cc> Try US Air Vancouver-New Orleans next week. You can fly Vancouver - Phoenix -  Dallas/Fort Worth - Charlotte - New Orleans if you want :p
21:40:43  <MinchinWeb> at least that's mostly all in the same direction :)
21:40:47  <frosch123> Kitty: it's not meant to be profitable; it's meant to be cool
21:41:06  <frosch123> who does pax transport with helicopters?
21:49:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i did that
21:50:23  <Eddi|zuHause> on some distances it's easier to do than planes, because they block less on takeoff/landing
21:52:34  <Kitty> bloody hell, this chopper service is actually being profitable
21:52:59  <Supercheese> Passenger transport is best done with zeppelins
21:53:05  <Supercheese> Lots and lots of zeppelins :D
21:53:18  <Kitty> lol
21:53:26  <Kitty> I have a farm being served by hover craft
21:53:27  <Kitty> profitably
21:53:34  <Supercheese> Make sure you have enough helium first ;)
21:53:57  <frosch123> helium is for kids
21:54:02  <frosch123> real zeppelins use hydrogen
21:54:09  <Eddi|zuHause> oil transport with zeppelins :)
21:54:22  <Supercheese> Hydrogen only gives, what, 8% more lift
21:54:25  <Kitty> I have done a profitable coal run with zeplins
21:54:30  <Kitty> helium is bloody expensive
21:54:30  <Supercheese> but 99.9% less explosive flammability :P
21:54:32  <Kitty> hydrogen is cheap
21:54:42  <Supercheese> money cheat :D
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22:18:22  * peter1138 mumbles about helium booleans being given away when helium is pretty precious
22:18:27  <peter1138> ...
22:18:29  <peter1138> balloons
22:18:32  <peter1138> not booleans :S
22:19:36  <Supercheese> Helium booleans :D
22:29:37  <drac_boy> hmm guess I may be right about the libpng but .. doesn't seen to be any offical answer to this :/
22:31:35  <peter1138> what?
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22:32:23  <frosch123> night
22:32:27  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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23:05:10  <burtybob> When connecting to the admin port what order does it do things? Does it check the password then packettype or packettype then password?
23:06:04  <burtybob> I would say type then password but if that was the case I should get "invalid packet type 0" when I use wrong password as well
23:07:10  <xQR> that's what i would expect, but never tried
23:07:39  <xQR> why is it important anyway?
23:08:48  <peter1138> not sure what you're asking
23:09:46  <burtybob> When connecting and sending the admin_join packet which is packet type 0 the console (OpenTTDs one for dedicated server) gives me "invalid packet type 0". HOWEVER if I use a password that is wrong then it says "the admin made an error and has been disconnected. reason: wrong password"
23:10:08  <planetmaker> burtybob, first connection is established. Then admin script has a certain timeout time to authorize itself via pw
23:11:19  <burtybob> Which is 10 seconds, if you don't authorize within that time then it gives a third response of "admin did not send authorisation within 10seconds"
23:11:48  <planetmaker> And connection is terminated
23:12:28  <burtybob> Yes but I do send correct password and I get "invalid packettype 0" when I've sent the admin_join packet which corresponds to 0
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23:14:44  <Terkhen> good night
23:14:57  <planetmaker> uhm... the ADMIN_PACKAGE_SERVER_WELCOME is sent to the admin, no? Not vice versa
23:15:29  <burtybob> server_welcome is sent TO the admin after reception of ADMIN_JOIN
23:15:53  <peter1138> invalid packet type 0 means you're being disconnected
23:16:09  <peter1138> possibly
23:16:29  <planetmaker> burtybob, did you try to run openttd with -d admin=1?
23:16:46  <burtybob> What does that param do?
23:17:01  <planetmaker> do you then get a message like [admin] bhlah (v2349049059) has connected
23:17:06  <planetmaker> debug output
23:17:15  <planetmaker> related to admin port processing
23:17:45  <planetmaker> maybe even level 3
23:18:09  <planetmaker> but 1 should suffice for a start
23:18:29  <burtybob> When trying to run with "-d admin=1" I get unknown debug level :S
23:18:49  <burtybob> Version 1.2.3
23:19:38  <planetmaker> sorry net=1
23:20:09  <burtybob> trying now
23:22:06  <drac_boy> peter1138 btw about that 'what?' you asked was because I was wondering about if openttd indeed only takes pcx screenshots when its compiled without libpng
23:22:12  <drac_boy> but meh :)
23:23:17  <peter1138> you dind't ask that
23:23:19  <peter1138> but no
23:23:22  <peter1138> pcx & bmp
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23:24:24  <burtybob> With both net=1 and net=3 I get no further information :S
23:26:03  <drac_boy> oh right I forgot about that bastard bmp one...rarely ever touched that format
23:26:08  <drac_boy> thanks anyway
23:26:30  <xQR> ADMIN_PACKAGE_SERVER_WELCOME comes later in the process
23:26:36  <planetmaker> neither the not authorized within XXX seconds nor ... has disconnected?
23:26:41  <xQR> first thing you do is connect and then send your ADMIN_PACKET_ADMIN_JOIN packet
23:26:55  <xQR> with password and the name of your client and its version
23:26:58  <peter1138> drac_boy, oh wow, you actually asked the question 2 hours before that comment
23:27:27  <peter1138> drac_boy, clearly ignoring all the conversations in between
23:28:02  <peter1138> btw
23:28:06  <peter1138> i hate gui design :S
23:28:17  <burtybob> xQR: That is what I do. Connect then build the ADMIN_PACKET_ADMIN_JOIN, send that and then OpenTTD throws the weird error thing that I'm gettting :/
23:29:32  <xQR> has it ever worked for you?
23:29:38  <xQR> it could also mean your packet is malformed
23:29:55  <drac_boy> peter1138 it was 50 minutes btw .. and most of that was taken up by supper :P
23:29:59  <planetmaker> burtybob, you NEED to get an [admin] XXX (vYYY) has connected. Or you never got a valid connection
23:30:04  <planetmaker> with the net=1 debugging
23:30:31  <peter1138> 20:26 -> 22:29
23:30:39  <peter1138> looks like 2 hours to me
23:31:20  <xQR> burtybob either that first packet is correct or not, if you get errors something with your packet is wrong
23:31:44  <burtybob> planetmaker: I get "[admin] 'BOT NAME' <BOT VERSION> has connected" then "[tcp/admin] received invalid packet type 0 from 'BOT NAME' <BOT VERSION>
23:32:11  <xQR> so the "has connected" happens first? this sounds like you are sending the JOIN packet twice
23:33:11  <xQR> does the "BOT NAME" and "BOT VERSION" come from you, is it what you are sending with your packet?
23:33:34  <burtybob> Yeah, if I uncomment the line that is writing to the stream then I get the admin did not authorise within 10seconds. Yes the bot name and bot version are coming from what I've set
23:34:15  <drac_boy> peter1138 dunno whats wrong with your clock but its only been 17:32 vs 18:26 .. or did you mean the original question?
23:34:17  <xQR> btw you were the guy asking me about xShunter earlier, right?
23:34:22  <xQR> name was just "burty"
23:34:23  <planetmaker> I really need to sleep. But I trust that xor will work it out with you :-)
23:34:30  <xQR> haha
23:34:33  <xQR> we'll see :P
23:34:40  <planetmaker> g'night
23:34:46  <xQR> nighties
23:34:54  <drac_boy> xshunter sounds like an interesting name :)
23:35:31  <peter1138> drac_boy, obviously, i said your question, not when you went afk
23:35:48  <burtybob> xQR: I was
23:36:18  <burtybob> My window closed and I couldn't remember the web address to get back :/
23:36:27  <xQR> haha
23:36:30  <xQR> thought something like that
23:36:33  <xQR> it was weird
23:36:40  <xQR> because i answered "yes" and 30 seconds later you just left
23:36:43  <xQR> :P
23:36:59  <peter1138> web address?
23:37:15  <xQR> anyway, data from your packet seems to arrive if it is shown on the connect message
23:37:34  <xQR> i begin to think maybe the size you specify for your packet is wrong
23:37:51  <xQR> e.g. it is too small and some ending 0 bytes are treated as the beginning of a new packet afterwards
23:38:12  <burtybob> I've got it set to 1460 which is the same as JOAN sets theirs
23:38:25  <xQR> ?
23:38:34  <burtybob> Java OpenTTD Admin Library
23:38:36  <xQR> the size should be what the size of your packet really is
23:39:02  <xQR> if your client name and password etc. together is only 100 bytes you shouldn't tell OpenTTD your packet would be 1460 bytes long
23:39:07  <xQR> this will definitely lead to problems ;)
23:39:32  <burtybob> I'll go look in to that now :)
23:39:53  <xQR> i'm afraid i don't know that library
23:40:06  <xQR> are you building the packet on byte level yourself or does the library do it?
23:40:59  <peter1138> howwwwwwwwwwwwwwww do i make a gui
23:41:09  <peter1138> i can't visual nested widgets :p
23:41:34  <peter1138> *visualise
23:46:48  <burtybob> I'm using the library function in another place but I'm guessing that I've messed up when I've moved it somehow. I'll get back to it tomorrow morning when I've had some sleep. Thanks for all the help :)
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