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Log for #openttd on 16th February 2013:
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00:00:53  <frosch123> http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/content2.png <- Zuu: tags are not as useful as i hoped for
00:01:42  <frosch123> i hoped to display the tags in a list, and then clicking on them would add/remove them from the filter
00:01:49  <frosch123> but, the tags are mostly useless
00:02:33  * Supercheese doesn't know what to do with tags
00:02:42  <Supercheese> There are no guidelines
00:02:44  <Zuu> They are quite useless indeed. Though a click thingy will at least not use any screen space.
00:03:18  * Zuu wrote a guideline for AIs
00:03:19  <frosch123> anyway, somewhat related... i am pondering to change the order gui
00:03:23  <frosch123> to use icons instead of text
00:03:25  <Zuu> It actually worked for quite some time.
00:03:38  <frosch123> icons can be aligned in columns, so you can click on them to switch full load
00:03:45  <frosch123> refit, stop location
00:03:49  <frosch123> or in the future: reversing
00:04:10  <Zuu> Noone did the same for the much larger NewGRF scene which from the beginning was harder to get a common standard. No doubt it is a mess with NewGRF tags.
00:04:16  <frosch123> but the different order types (station/depot/conditional) would break the columns :s
00:04:36  <frosch123> Zuu: for newgrfs we just search the whole description :)
00:05:44  <Eddi|zuHause> bananas needs a tag cloud!!
00:06:05  <planetmaker> good idea frosch123
00:06:09  <Zuu> Which have heightmap and 2048 written out in large size :-)
00:06:38  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the order gui needs some total restructuring
00:07:06  <frosch123> yup, the last one is only 4 years ago :p
00:07:19  <Eddi|zuHause> (and you're going to kill me if i come with shunting at this point :p)
00:07:19  <frosch123> or "already" :p
00:07:26  <Zuu> IIRC someone posted a icon proposal for the order GUI which was quite nice.
00:08:31  <frosch123> i cannot remember any order related patch
00:08:39  <Zuu> Now that we have non-hidden tooltips it may even be discoverable for new players.
00:08:40  <frosch123> except for the refit-gui thingie
00:08:49  <frosch123> or was it about selective loading?
00:08:55  <frosch123> something with a big cargo list in the order
00:09:19  <Zuu> It was probably only a graphical mockup.
00:09:47  <Zuu> With icons for things like "stop near/middle/far" instead of using text for that.
00:10:05  <Zuu> It was IIRC quite still the same GUI but with less text and icons instead.
00:10:07  <frosch123> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=703324#p703324 <- that one
00:10:11  <frosch123> looks quite messy
00:11:03  <Zuu> Thats not the one I have in my mind. (but my memory could be wrong too)
00:11:05  <frosch123> hmm... what does the "ignore signals" button mean?
00:11:38  <Zuu> All trains on that order will ignore signals until you toggle that button again?
00:12:01  <frosch123> i believe it is the normal button from the vehicle gui, but moved to the order gui
00:12:23  <Zuu> yeah, where it only make sense for non-shared orders.
00:12:34  <frosch123> it's about moving "skip order", "goto depot" and "ignore signals" into one place
00:12:45  <frosch123> but i don't quite agree with that reasoning :)
00:13:55  <Zuu> Hmm, oh yes. With shared orders, the order window both show shared state but also vehicle specific state (current order).
00:14:03  <Eddi|zuHause> "all trains ignore signals" sounds like a not very bright idea ;p
00:14:25  <planetmaker> on the contrary. very bright. fireball
00:14:35  <Zuu> Maybe have a order-viewer show up that is vehicle specific. Then form that you open a order editor that doesn't contain any vehicle specific buttons or data.
00:14:38  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i think that "orders" need to be separated into "go to X" and "do Y when you get there"
00:14:44  <frosch123> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=31074 <- Zuu: i hope you do not mean that topic
00:15:04  <Eddi|zuHause> and secondly, "orders" should be composed of "routes"
00:15:11  <frosch123> i remember argueing about the completly non-comprehsensive icons back then
00:16:01  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i think i made fun of suborders in .dev recently
00:16:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. i set up once "from A to B you go via X,Y and Z (with timetable)", and then i give trains orders "go from A to B via route XYZ, and then to C via blah"
00:16:21  <Supercheese> r10783, wow
00:16:23  <Supercheese> forever ago
00:16:37  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: http://webster.openttdcoop.org/index.php?channel=openttd.dev&date=1360540800#1360616982
00:16:39  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: have you checked out the Timetable Improvement Patch?
00:16:50  <frosch123> 21:03:23
00:17:08  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: which one is that?
00:17:09  <Zuu> frosch123: not that topic
00:17:21  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the TIP one, fairly recently
00:17:22  <frosch123> there are many timetable patches
00:17:31  <frosch123> is it about separation?
00:17:36  <Eddi|zuHause> no
00:17:40  <frosch123> or about the exact schedule times with 24 hour clock?
00:17:40  <Eddi|zuHause> it's about routes
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00:18:13  <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't have 24h clock afair. that was ITiM
00:18:54  <frosch123> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=30970 <- another window
00:18:59  <frosch123> also not what i have in mind
00:19:15  <frosch123> i don't want a toolbar, i want info icons in the order rows
00:20:14  <frosch123> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=626517#p626517 <- lol, we should add gui skind to ottd :)
00:20:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean concept-wise, you'd have to have an idea what orders should look like, and then think about how to efficiently represent them. not the other way around
00:21:58  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: ah, i remember skipping that post
00:22:17  <frosch123> too long for someone not interested in timetables :)
00:22:33  <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=63721
00:22:46  <frosch123> i am looking at the screenshot
00:22:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i've not had a chance to test it
00:23:05  <Eddi|zuHause> but the idea sounded interesting
00:23:22  <Eddi|zuHause> and timetables are in desperate need of macromanaging functions
00:23:38  <Zuu> I found a thread for implementing routes from 2008, but now I don't find it again. :-)
00:24:01  <frosch123> anyway, essentially we have routes
00:24:06  <frosch123> we just do not have the gui for it
00:25:53  <Eddi|zuHause> a macromanaging function i would use could be "from A to B via X,Y,Z, send a train every 10 days for 30 days, then no train for 30 dais, repeat"
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00:26:42  <oskari892> Eddi: Sounds nice
00:26:52  <Zuu> Ah.. here we have it (resqued from browser history): http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=590557#p590557
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00:27:17  <Eddi|zuHause> and interleave this with "from A to B via (express), send no train for 50 days, send one train, send no train for 10 days, repeat"
00:27:24  <Zuu> (not the order GUI, but the routes thingy which is probably not really routes)
00:28:35  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: that is rather about group management, isn't it?
00:28:36  <planetmaker> good night
00:28:42  <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: yes
00:29:06  <Zuu> they have some order connection, but it is probably more grouping than routes.
00:30:58  <frosch123> Zuu: you restored a post from 2007 from browser history? :p
00:31:23  <chillcore> good night planetmaker and everybody else.
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00:32:00  <frosch123> Zuu: anyway, i did not find anything like a renewed orders gui
00:32:05  <Zuu> Anyhow, the routes discussion remind me about my idea to have partial orders. Eg. each waypoint have a list of orders. Then when you tell a vehicle order to visit this waypoint, it will add an item in the order list that points to the waypoint and will insert a shared copy of that partial order list into the vehicle orders.
00:32:36  <Zuu> frosch123: I tried to search for what I was thinking about, but couldn't find it. It was probably just a lose suggestion somewhere.
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00:33:25  <Zuu> That post form my browser history was a post that I saw today when looking for the post that I was thinking about.
00:34:00  <Eddi|zuHause> so you randomly browse threads from 5 years ago? :)
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00:34:25  <frosch123> the search results do not display the date
00:35:53  <frosch123> he... prissi started two topics about gui consistency
00:41:47  <Eddi|zuHause> question asked in a bavarian beer tent: "would it, in retrospect, have been better to have given berlin to the russians?" - "no, i love the russians too much to burden them with that" :p
00:44:11  <frosch123> hmm, the simutrans forums have really complicated member titles
00:44:22  <frosch123> "Simitrans-Experimental project coordinator"
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00:49:40  <frosch123> night
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00:51:28  <oskari892> Eddi: So do you have shunting system in planning or... ? ^
00:52:10  <oskari892> Regarding that GUI discussion up there :)
00:54:03  <Eddi|zuHause> oskari892: i have plans for lots of things, but people keep telling me "that's too complicated, nobody will/can code that"
00:54:53  <oskari892> Those people have wrong attitude
00:55:02  <Eddi|zuHause> that may also be related to me thinking 3 steps further ahead than they do, and then i have problems explaining my thoughts to them :p
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00:57:09  <oskari892> Somebody already did shunting btw... http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=43972
00:57:24  <oskari892> Don't know if that is proper
00:57:45  <Eddi|zuHause> but afair he did not publish a patch
00:58:00  <oskari892> True...
00:59:48  <oskari892> It's sad that there's people who vanish from forums totally for years
01:01:30  <oskari892> Such as one who did code Finnish Trainset, not releasing a NewGrf, just providing screenshots, but disappeared and now there's a year gone without single post from him...
01:01:35  <oskari892> as
01:02:05  <oskari892> I wonder where he had gone? :P
01:04:32  <oskari892> The same person which did Swedish Houses
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01:41:43  <Superuser> hey guys
01:41:46  <Superuser> so I've been thinking
01:41:50  <Superuser> since I'm so amazing at what I do
01:42:10  <Superuser> I think I should get a mention for my efforts in the next blog post
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01:42:25  <Superuser> for the 1.31 release that is
01:42:45  <Superuser> what do you think? I have literally changed about 2000 strings, I basically translated the whole thing by myself
01:42:56  <Superuser> + I have corrected several of the original English strings
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02:00:46  <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly is it that you do again?
02:09:30  <Superuser> translated to Greek
02:09:34  <Superuser> but it was an intense effort
02:09:52  <Superuser> plus, I helped improve all other translations by improving the English strings
02:10:08  <Superuser> I actually have a few more changes to English strings I want to discuss, but I'm playing atm :)
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06:30:36  <Supercheese> 3-day weekend, time for lots and lots of OTTD :D
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07:00:32  <andythenorth> is it though?
07:02:24  <Pikka> only on wednesdays
07:02:48  <Pikka> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5473 wot larks
07:04:11  <Supercheese> +1
07:04:24  <Supercheese> I've tried to wrangle running sounds before
07:04:37  <Supercheese> isn't the easiest thing to do
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07:15:34  <andythenorth> ok minds, ship speed:
07:16:02  <Supercheese> which?
07:16:07  <andythenorth> so RL ferries and fishing boats and crap do about 11 knots (13mph)
07:16:19  <andythenorth> which I cheat up to about 16mph
07:16:48  <andythenorth> but I don't cheat up the faster ships
07:17:07  <andythenorth> so RL hovercraft can cruise at 46mph, and so does the FISH one
07:17:23  <andythenorth> shall I just cheat them all up same amount?
07:17:36  <Supercheese> just have the hovercraft go faster than 46 mph when empty
07:17:39  <Supercheese> 46 when loaded
07:17:42  <Supercheese> like some other FISH ships
07:18:02  <Supercheese> Keep RL-speeds the loaded-speeds-ish
07:18:03  <andythenorth> oh it probably does that already anyway
07:18:12  <Supercheese> and bump them up higher than RL when empty
07:18:18  <Supercheese> oh, already does that?
07:18:18  <Pikka> hovercrafts are silly
07:18:21  <Supercheese> s'all good then
07:18:25  <andythenorth> yeah, they do that automagically I think
07:18:28  <andythenorth> owing to some code I wrote
07:18:38  <andythenorth> in Squid anyway
07:18:47  <andythenorth> pikkacrafts would be silly
07:18:54  <andythenorth> hovercheese too
07:19:06  <Supercheese> Cheeseships
07:19:14  <Pikka> yes
07:19:15  <Pikka> well
07:19:15  <Supercheese> mmmm
07:19:16  <andythenorth> Pikka: there is only one, and it's only a very little one.  Just a morsel.
07:19:22  <andythenorth> can't you overlook it? :(
07:19:29  <Pikka> that freight one
07:19:32  <Pikka> I guess it is not so bad
07:19:43  <Pikka> 900mph
07:19:46  <Supercheese> other fast ships are catamarans or hydrofoils
07:19:54  <Supercheese> well, other than the silly Bakewell 300
07:20:24  <andythenorth> Pikka: on MP servers, it's certainly nice to see everyone go fishing with a hovercraft
07:20:31  <Pikka> mmm
07:20:32  <Pikka> fishing
07:20:34  <andythenorth> hovertrawler
07:20:46  <Supercheese> go fishing with seaplanes
07:20:51  <Supercheese> flying FISH
07:20:53  <andythenorth> zellepins
07:21:03  <andythenorth> zelletrawler
07:21:09  <Supercheese> our US Zeppelins had nasty habits of going fishing
07:21:15  <Supercheese> happened twice
07:21:18  <andythenorth> should we just stop?
07:21:20  <andythenorth> all this?
07:21:30  <andythenorth> and join V453000 with the NUTS thing?
07:21:34  <Supercheese> poor Admiral Moffet didn't survive the fishing trip :(
07:24:37  <Pikka> almost certainly
07:25:30  <Pikka> actually, you can go fishing with a zellepin, can't you?
07:25:41  <Pikka> with the skylift at least
07:27:49  <andythenorth> floating crane
07:27:53  <andythenorth> .2m
07:28:02  <andythenorth> could go fishing with that
07:28:06  * andythenorth is on a ship broker site
07:28:51  <Pikka> cheap at half the price
07:30:43  <andythenorth> for less than m we can get 268' cargo ship
07:30:49  <andythenorth> ice capable
07:30:53  <andythenorth> http://commercial.apolloduck.com/advert.phtml?id=290445
07:31:04  <andythenorth> we could spend the earnings from newgrf on that?
07:32:15  <andythenorth> ho here's one of the small coasters from FISH http://commercial.apolloduck.com/image.phtml?id=289085&image=1
07:32:17  <andythenorth> which I made up
07:32:23  <andythenorth> nice to find the photo later
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07:47:19  <Pikka> eesh
07:47:25  <andythenorth> ?
07:47:36  <Pikka> a 31-year-old 268' cargo ship :)
07:49:41  <andythenorth> younger than me
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07:50:29  <Pikka> same age as me
07:50:35  <andythenorth> shall I just multiply all RL speeds by 1.5 then?
07:50:45  <andythenorth> and be done with it?
07:50:59  <Pikka> I still think you should have a parameter
07:51:04  <Pikka> maybe make 1.5 the default
07:51:09  <Pikka> with 1 and 2 as options
07:51:35  <andythenorth> 1 is masochistic :P
07:53:02  <Pikka> http://commercial.apolloduck.com/image.phtml?id=274229&image=1 this one's in queensland
07:53:22  <Pikka> apparently it is the "Largest small cruise Cat built in last 10 years"
07:53:37  <Pikka> I guess the next model up is the "smallest large cruise cat"
07:55:46  <andythenorth> yes
07:56:45  <andythenorth> hmm
07:56:48  <andythenorth> parameter then
07:58:34  <Pikka> :]
07:58:48  <Pikka> and then adjust running costs accordingly, if you can be bothered ;)
07:59:35  <andythenorth> let's see
08:06:27  <andythenorth> how does that action 14 thing work :P
08:15:02  <andythenorth> yeah that will all be fine
08:15:09  <andythenorth> I'll have to just write some nml :P
08:16:08  <peter1138> aw, krinn was update that i moderizzled his post
08:23:59  <andythenorth> for shame
08:25:04  <andythenorth> hmm
08:25:11  <andythenorth> should I invest? o_O http://www.train-fever.com
08:25:33  <andythenorth> it's not pixels
08:27:49  <peter1138> looked a bit small in the video i saw
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09:09:37  <Alberth> moin
09:12:03  <Pikka> hello Alberth
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09:27:31  <planetmaker> moin
09:28:46  <andythenorth> 0/
09:28:48  <Alberth> o/
09:29:22  <andythenorth> action 14, how I love thy caching
09:31:30  * Alberth ponders about how to fix the custom_tags file for translating
09:31:45  * andythenorth ponders removing 'speed factor: 0'
09:31:57  <andythenorth> 0 is not a useful multiplier for gameplay purposes :P
09:32:06  <Alberth> not very much indeed :)
09:32:29  <Alberth> rename to 'speed index' :D
09:32:58  <andythenorth> that's actually the right thing to do
09:33:32  <Alberth> what's the purpose of custom_tags in the first place?  doesn't it belong in lang/* files?
09:34:14  <planetmaker> Alberth, e.g. you can define {GRF_NAME} My fancy name and then use {GRF_NAME} in strings
09:35:01  <Alberth> yeah, but why not in a lang file?
09:35:18  <planetmaker> universal for all languages?
09:36:07  <Alberth> lang/english.lng:5:STR_GRF_NAME                                                                    :IRC Log Viewer   <-- like so?
09:36:08  <andythenorth> oh
09:36:21  <andythenorth> so that's the intended solution to 'not all strings should be translated'? o_O
09:36:24  <planetmaker> as it's treated different from a general string, universal for all files, syntactically like a tag. Like you show, yes
09:36:50  <planetmaker> Alberth, I use it e.g. for version display
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09:36:54  <planetmaker> {VERSION}
09:37:09  <Alberth> I mean why not    lang/english.lng:5:STR_GRF_NAME : My fancy name
09:37:27  <planetmaker> and then the GRF_NAME reads like STR_GRF_NAME: IRC Log Viewer {VERSION} (translated title, if any)
09:37:55  <planetmaker> I can programmatically write {VERSION} as function of hg output w/o touching lang file
09:38:48  <Alberth> it's messy, imho
09:39:17  <Alberth> add one more tag in custom_tags, and you have the problem of modifying that file as well
09:39:30  <planetmaker> how do you get the repo version in a lang file?
09:39:47  <Alberth> imho you don't
09:39:52  <planetmaker> I write custom_tags anew everytime. I only put version, untranslatable name there
09:40:03  <Alberth> (assuming you don't means # $Id$  :)
09:40:03  <planetmaker> exactly. But how get that in the title then?
09:40:18  <planetmaker> I mean my version like r245 or 0.5.2
09:40:31  <Alberth> imho a string literal in the program
09:40:35  <planetmaker> that's nothing a translator can do
09:40:48  <Alberth> r245 needs translating?
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09:40:57  <planetmaker> no, of course not
09:41:02  <Alberth> hi Wolf01
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09:41:17  <Wolf01> hello :D
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09:41:36  <Alberth> in that case you've lost me now
09:42:09  <planetmaker> A translator cannot / shall not mess with version strings. That changes much more often than strings
09:42:10  <Alberth> I'd think you should be able to write   "this is blah blah blah version xyz" as literal in the program
09:42:22  <planetmaker> so I define that whereever a translator has no say
09:42:34  <Alberth> or in CPP speak   "...." ## VERSION
09:42:42  <planetmaker> I write STR_GRF_NAME: Title blah {VERSION}
09:42:57  <planetmaker> not sure I can define mixed fixed strings and translated ones
09:43:03  <Alberth> not as string literal in a *.nml file?
09:43:15  <planetmaker> custom_tags is the literal strings for translations which you ask for
09:43:49  <planetmaker> i.e. if you need a literal string in other strings: then custom_tags is for you
09:44:20  <Alberth> a string literal is for me a double quote character, zero or more other stuff, and a closing double quote character
09:44:51  <andythenorth> right
09:44:55  <andythenorth> speed parameter works for ships
09:45:06  <andythenorth> better put some strings in for it :P
09:46:54  <planetmaker> Alberth, from a translation POV custom_tags is not translatable
09:47:32  <Alberth> but I need its tags, or I'll throw X:{BLA} out the window for unknown tags
09:48:07  <Alberth> but every project has its own tags, and they change overt time :( :(
09:48:53  <planetmaker> yes, that's true... you won't even find that file in any of my repos
09:49:30  <Alberth> luckily, I don't care what's in your repo :)
09:49:41  <planetmaker> well. But what's in the custom_tags?
09:50:33  <planetmaker> the idea behind it was indeed for a string like {VERSION} or whatever the author needs to be easily used in strings
09:51:47  <Alberth> I can see two options:
09:51:47  <Alberth> a) I allow any {XYZ} without bothering to check it, which basically means translators can add any crap, and it will all drop into your repo
09:51:47  <Alberth> b) I only allow tags I know, which means I need a list of them. How you get that list is up to the author of the project, imho
09:53:06  <planetmaker> option (a) sounds very unappealing
09:53:26  <Alberth> it is, imho, for proof, see the mess of WT3
09:53:27  <planetmaker> option (b) needs some interface definition
09:53:36  <planetmaker> WT3 allows any?
09:53:47  <Alberth> no, but it has holes
09:54:10  <Alberth> eg {G ..} indexes are not checked iirc
09:54:22  <planetmaker> oi. not too nice :-)
09:55:23  <Alberth> just look up the fixes made by rb and frsh mostly :)
09:57:28  <Alberth> b) has the huge problem that if you change the list (in particular delete some item), all translations become invalid for every use of that removed tag
09:57:55  <andythenorth> Pikka innit https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3803/ship_speed_parameter.png
09:58:08  <planetmaker> of course. But that's the problem of the dev. If we change a string it also becomes invalid in all translations
09:58:14  <Pikka> fancy
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09:59:01  <andythenorth> 66% 100% 133%
09:59:11  <Pikka> nice
09:59:24  <Alberth> good to know the speed of drying paint :)
09:59:25  <joey8> has anyone got time to help a non techie try to install 1.3 over the top of 1.1 on ubuntu please. thank you
09:59:44  <Alberth> don't try to install stuff on top of other stuff
09:59:57  <joey8> oh ok - shall i uninstall 1.1 first?
10:00:41  <Alberth> 1.1 comes from the package manager?
10:00:46  <joey8> yes
10:01:08  <Alberth> if so, then likely it also has the openttd data part attached to it, which you need again for 1.3
10:01:32  <Alberth> the package manager does not have 1.3 yet, I guess
10:01:44  <Alberth> so you need to do a manual install of the latter
10:01:58  <joey8> no it doesnt and to a complete klutz (me) i am having difficulties
10:01:59  <Alberth> imho the best solution is to install 1.3 next to 1.1
10:02:39  <joey8> oh ok
10:03:01  <Alberth> planetmaker: unfortunately that breaks my concept of translation; I had it dependant on the base language string, but now it depends on 1 file, and 1 string
10:03:32  <Alberth> joey8: the simplest way is to download the generic linux binary
10:03:54  <Alberth> hmm, perhaps there are also packages for your linux version, you should have a look
10:04:04  <planetmaker> Alberth, you could - for that purpose - likely consider custom_tags.txt part of the base language. A part which is untranslatable
10:04:29  <joey8> Alberth➀ ok i will look thank you for your help
10:04:30  <Alberth> planetmaker: yes, but is a *file*, not one string
10:05:13  <Eddi|zuHause> <Alberth> a string literal is for me a double quote character, zero or more other stuff, and a closing double quote character <-- afair those were deliberately not allowed to force people to use the string/lang-file system right from the start
10:05:15  <Alberth> ie you can do {X} {Y}
10:05:52  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: oh?  grfid : "AB";  :)
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10:06:20  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, because that's not an actual string :)
10:07:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean in places that require a (displayable) string, those are not allowed
10:07:16  <Eddi|zuHause> not that the language doesn't have them
10:07:33  <andythenorth> I need a string to describe what ship speed param does
10:07:38  <andythenorth> cba to think
10:07:52  <planetmaker> This string allows to put your ships on steroids
10:08:00  <planetmaker> s/string/parameter/g
10:08:05  <andythenorth> or I could just leave it blank, as it's obvious
10:08:09  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: in general that does make sense, ie the unicode stuff is too complicated for many
10:10:02  <Alberth> andythenorth: "rate at which the ships splits water molecules from each other to make room for itself"
10:10:17  <andythenorth> :)
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10:10:42  <planetmaker> if they start splitting the molecules... wooo!
10:11:03  <Alberth> then it'd run on steroids :)
10:11:10  <planetmaker> :D
10:11:25  <planetmaker> hydro-molecular propulsion :-)
10:11:26  <Eddi|zuHause> just apply an electrical charge :)
10:11:30  <planetmaker> sounds like future-tech :-)
10:11:39  <planetmaker> ^^ andy
10:11:54  <Eddi|zuHause> andy doesn't do futures :p
10:11:55  <planetmaker> finally some future ships :D
10:12:14  <Alberth> in the future we'll live under water :)
10:13:24  <Eddi|zuHause> when you are dutch, that is certainly a possibility :p
10:14:52  <Terkhen> good morning
10:14:58  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I do historical future
10:15:03  <andythenorth> which is why everyone has hovercraft
10:15:10  <planetmaker> hello Terkhen
10:16:14  <Eddi|zuHause> so then why don't you have ekranoplans :)
10:16:23  <andythenorth> well
10:16:26  <andythenorth> they're insane
10:16:27  <andythenorth> is one
10:17:11  <andythenorth> I should add these
10:17:12  <andythenorth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zubr_class_LCAC
10:17:17  <andythenorth> 150t, 63 knots
10:17:26  <andythenorth> ~72 mph
10:17:42  <planetmaker> knots is also mph. just other miles ;-)
10:18:30  <Supercheese> "55 knots if sustained"
10:18:43  <andythenorth> Supercheese: never pay attention to sustained ratings
10:18:52  <andythenorth> that is not good for gameplay :P
10:19:02  <andythenorth> it is an enemy of MOAR
10:19:09  <Alberth> andy needs 'cheat' settings :)
10:19:18  <Supercheese> He just did, with the parameter
10:19:58  <Alberth> yeah, but 133% does not give him a concrete speed :p
10:20:13  <Pikka> woo, travelling at the speed of concrete!
10:20:29  <Alberth> :D
10:20:48  <Alberth> hmm, 'actual' is better?
10:21:12  <Pikka> concrete is fine, I suppose!
10:22:08  <andythenorth> you can make concrete boats
10:22:18  <andythenorth> I once had a university lecturer who did that
10:22:20  <andythenorth> then I quit
10:22:25  <andythenorth> concrete is not exciting
10:22:27  <Pikka> because of?
10:22:32  <Pikka> isn't it?
10:22:43  <andythenorth> it has exciting uses
10:22:43  <Pikka> what would you rather make boats out of?
10:22:49  <andythenorth> and it's exciting if you fall in it
10:24:05  <Supercheese> Good lord, 1024x1024 maps are enormous
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10:25:04  <Pikka> 37s aren't as sexy as F units
10:25:05  <Pikka> how sad
10:33:07  <Supercheese> 'night
10:33:11  <Supercheese> valete omnes
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10:35:43  <Pikka> does she?
10:39:09  <peter1138> yes
10:39:22  <Pikka> how rare
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11:09:19  <andythenorth> Pikka: cut a 37 in half, and make b units too
11:09:23  <andythenorth> then it's about the same
11:09:32  <andythenorth> more fake things
11:09:43  <Pikka> well
11:09:50  <Pikka> it's smaller, so it's harder to draw nice
11:10:31  <Pikka> and all-over blue with yellow noses looks a bit ordinary
11:11:16  <andythenorth> do the police one
11:11:52  <Pikka> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tHnDlMC6KI
11:12:10  <andythenorth> musical theatre
11:12:42  <Pikka> savoy opera
11:15:40  <andythenorth> http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2013/01/ice-and-snow-vehicles-retro-showcase.html
11:17:21  <andythenorth> DarkRoastedBlend.grf
11:17:29  <Alberth> shopping for a new car to drive to work andy ?
11:17:55  <andythenorth> http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2007/01/category-trains.html
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11:31:14  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so you want futurism? http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2007/12/category-futurism.html
11:32:17  <jonty-comp> i always wanted to make some sort of steampunk/retro-futurist set for ttd
11:33:27  <Pikka> "This American concept shows the ultimate helicopter:
11:33:28  <Pikka> (at least the largest we've seen drawn on paper)"
11:33:51  <Pikka> whoever wrote that obviously has no idea how big real helicopters get, the drawing is of something chinook sized :)
11:33:54  <Flygon> jonty-comp: Sky Captain and the World of Transport Tycooning
11:34:01  <jonty-comp> something like that :D
11:34:09  <jonty-comp> although god what a terrible film that was
11:37:14  <Flygon> Aw
11:37:16  <Flygon> I loved that world
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11:42:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i ever watched that
11:56:31  <andythenorth> zellepins! http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2008/03/airship-dreams.html
11:59:56  <Flygon> Er, movie, not world
11:59:57  <Flygon> Derp
12:00:03  <Flygon> Eddi: It's... interesting
12:00:04  <Flygon> Unusual
12:00:10  <Flygon> It works for some people, but not for others
12:00:34  <Flygon> It's a homage to  basically every single... ... thing, pre-1950
12:00:47  <Flygon> Prodominantly among the style of Dieselpunk
12:02:30  <andythenorth> zellepins
12:02:31  <andythenorth> everywhere
12:02:35  <andythenorth> zellepin trucks
12:02:39  <andythenorth> zellepin ships
12:03:12  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: only that the Zeppelin NT is already dead
12:03:18  <andythenorth> apparently :(
12:03:36  <andythenorth> US military Skylifter is not though
12:03:38  <andythenorth> apparently
12:04:20  <andythenorth> http://www.theverge.com/2012/8/8/3227818/us-army-lemv-airship-first-flight
12:04:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess the company was totally bloated and just imploded before they could get a working prototype out
12:04:38  <jonty-comp> i wonder if someone has made a V-22 Osprey for TTD
12:04:53  <Flygon> Zeppelin NT lacked much practical purpose, unfortunately
12:05:01  <jonty-comp> if not, then i have found what to do with my morning
12:05:08  <andythenorth> oh
12:05:14  <andythenorth> they just cancelled the LEMV
12:05:17  <andythenorth> 2 days ago
12:05:40  <jonty-comp> aww
12:05:44  <__ln__> andythenorth: i took this photo some years ago: http://users.utu.fi/lanurm/kuvat/tmp/view_from_frontdoor.jpg
12:05:47  <jonty-comp> but it looked like a bottom :(
12:07:54  <peter1138> hmm, simuscape unreachable?
12:08:31  <Flygon> I'm astounded they didn't sell off the design to private investors, if they canned it
12:08:49  <Flygon> A private company could have interesting things to do with a supermassive Airship
12:08:52  <Flygon> Specifically: Tourism
12:09:13  <Flygon> Want to go on a trip around the world... vertically?
12:09:33  <Eddi|zuHause> "cruse flight tour: 2 weeks across the USA"?
12:10:03  <jonty-comp> peter1138: inb4 ddos
12:10:06  <NGC3982> It's a blimp!
12:11:36  <andythenorth> peter1138: seems to be :(
12:13:48  <Flygon> Also
12:13:52  <Flygon> I foresee freight being a good use
12:14:10  <Flygon> Also, and this is the same for any Airship
12:14:14  <Flygon> Safe transportation for oil rigs
12:15:34  <Pikka> jonty-comp, you can probably delete that thread now :)
12:17:01  <andythenorth> it's done
12:17:59  <Flygon> Eddi: I'd rather a cruise flight from New York to Tokyo
12:19:19  <Flygon> See the sights of the United Kingdom, to Europe (eg. France, Germany, Switzerland), have Americans crapping their dacks over the Middle East, cruise over India, ...yadayada, something about too much bloody smog in China, and finally land in the technological paradise of Tokyo
12:19:29  <Flygon> Travel 50km out, and experience the wonders of Japanese Fax Machines
12:20:54  <Flygon> Going from New York to Tokyo via Seattle would present you the wonders of trees
12:21:01  <Flygon> Lots. And lots. And lots. Of Trees.
12:23:05  <Eddi|zuHause> or via sibiria?
12:23:24  <Eddi|zuHause> avoids the whole middle east thingie :p
12:24:04  <Flygon> Yes, but for an efficient route
12:24:14  <Flygon> Urg
12:24:16  <Flygon> Problem is
12:24:23  <Flygon> Both Siberia and Middle East are bleak
12:24:33  <Flygon> The point of the tour is to give very interesting sights
12:24:42  <Eddi|zuHause> but isn't one point about cruises that you end up where you started?
12:24:57  <Flygon> Assuming the Chinese airforce cooperated and allowed nice looking views...
12:24:59  <Flygon> ...
12:25:00  <Flygon> Crap
12:25:04  <Flygon> He's right
12:25:43  <Eddi|zuHause> if you want to go from A to B, you take the plane, if you want to have a nice time, you want to be home after a week or two
12:29:18  <jonty-comp> so put parachutes on the airship
12:29:28  <jonty-comp> then when you're floating over your hometown, you just jump out
12:29:33  <Flygon> Eddi: How about this, from Tokyo to Hawaii, to San Fran, to NY
12:32:02  <Eddi|zuHause> note that in each of these places you need a location to land so the people can spend a day in the town
12:32:39  <Flygon> ...
12:32:40  <Flygon> Crud
12:32:48  <Flygon> You're screwed in Japan, then
12:32:56  <Flygon> There's nowhere in Tok-
12:32:59  <Flygon> I'm stupid
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12:33:31  <Flygon> One of the advantages of Blimps is the theoretical possibility of an above-air passenger disembarkment...
12:33:35  <Rubidium> a day in Tokyo? Are you trying to do the Europe in 7 days kind of thing?
12:33:49  <Rubidium> Flygon: there's plenty of places where a blimp can land in Tokyo
12:34:06  <Flygon> A 1500 meter one?
12:34:21  <Eddi|zuHause> one that needs 300m runway?
12:34:23  <Flygon> If you're gonna be a cruise ship, gotta do it in massive style
12:34:28  <Rubidium> definitely
12:34:58  <Flygon> I'm not sure there's anywhere within 30-50km of the CBD that could handle a blimp LANDING that's so big
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12:36:06  <Rubidium> the big (national-ish) airport is only 20 km away
12:36:25  <Flygon> Could that handle a 1500m long blimp?
12:36:44  <Rubidium> I see no reason why it can't
12:36:48  <Flygon> Hmm
12:37:02  <Rubidium> it's completely man-made land, so a place for a 1500m blimp can be made as well
12:37:03  <Flygon> Either way, easy to land the in Australia :p
12:37:26  <Flygon> Except Tullamarine.
12:37:39  <Flygon> Er, wait, stupid statement
12:37:49  <Flygon> Plenty of unused ground, and is a good helidepot...
12:38:05  <Rubidium> alternatively... the blimp could land on water
12:38:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure every place that you actually WANT to go to in australia is equally crowded as europe...
12:38:25  <Flygon> That's a good idea, rough weather gives concerns though
12:38:43  <Flygon> Eddi: Look up the urban density of Melbourne and Sydney
12:38:58  <Flygon> It pales compared to Paris, London, Warsaw...
12:39:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: so the houses are smaller, there still won't be any large enough spaces without houses
12:39:48  <Flygon> True
12:39:56  <Flygon> Melbourne's urban sprawl is stupidly high in the East...
12:39:59  <Flygon> But in the West?:
12:40:26  <Flygon> I can name one airport that could be trivially expanded for supermassive airships, and also be linked to a local fast train line
12:40:44  <Flygon> Presuming they electrified it, so that 200-230km/h actually becomes practical >_>
12:40:53  <Flygon> Current Diesels lack the acceleration
12:41:12  <Rubidium> Montreal Mirabel?
12:41:23  <Flygon> Montreal Mirabel?
12:41:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that is in australia :p
12:41:54  <Flygon> It isn't
12:42:08  <Flygon> I think Supermassive airships have good freight and passenger transport
12:42:14  <Flygon> Specifically, mining
12:42:40  <Rubidium> you know those things become massive wind catchers, right?
12:43:00  <Flygon> True, and they'd be rigid...
12:43:47  <Eddi|zuHause> of course they'd be rigid, they're not hot air balloons
12:43:58  <Flygon> Well, you can make nonrigid airships
12:44:00  <Flygon> But they're not as good
12:44:37  <Flygon> And transporting coal using airships is kinda stupid
12:44:42  <Flygon> Easier to use ships
12:44:58  <Flygon> I think it has some practical use for more inland materials, though, eg. uranium
12:44:58  <Rubidium> Flygon: Mirabal airport was envisioned as a 100.000 acres (40.000 ha), currently it's 17.000 acres which includes plenty of room for expansion
12:45:20  <Flygon> Rubidium: With airships, AUSTRALIA is an airport :P
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12:46:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure berlin tempelhof would be a nice place for large airships :p
12:47:16  <Eddi|zuHause> nice empty space with no use, in the middle of the city
12:47:44  <Flygon> I know it's an injoke, but I don't get it :(
12:47:59  <Flygon> Sounds like saying Frankston is the worlds largest prison, though
12:48:57  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: Berlin Brandenburg would be a nice place as well for the coming decade
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12:50:00  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: berlin used to have 3 airports. two in west and one in east. then they decided they want to have one big airport and close down the two others, the smallest one, Tempelhof, was closed like 10 years ago already, the larger one, Tegel, was supposed to be closed last year together with the opening of the really large one near the old third airport, Schönefeld. but then they totally failed to open that in time
12:50:41  <Eddi|zuHause> Schönefeld is directly outside berlin's borders
12:50:59  <Flygon> Ah
12:51:05  <Flygon> Melbourne has at least 3 airports
12:51:29  <Flygon> Essendon, Tullamarine, and Avalon (which is closer to Geelong)
12:52:25  <Flygon> But Essendon is used for only specific flights, Tullamarine is the big one
12:53:06  <Flygon> ...the Liberal Government wants to built ANOTHER airport... instead of building trainlines to Tulla OR Avalon >_>
12:53:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: the actual scandal is that everything was prepared, and then like a month before opening they said "ugh... i guess we won't make it, we need at least another half year", and then they said "ugh, another year may be more realistic" and they ended up with "i guess we have no clue when we can make it"
12:53:32  <Flygon> Ah
12:53:35  <Flygon> How Australian of Germany
12:56:42  <Pikka> frosch123, not necessarily "looping",  but it would be nice to have the interval between sound effects be regular. :)
12:57:03  <frosch123> you won't get them perfectly regular
12:57:13  <frosch123> sound playback is a realtime thing
12:57:16  <frosch123> ottd is not
12:57:21  <frosch123> esp. with lots of vehicles
12:57:30  <Pikka> true
12:58:13  <Pikka> I may just have to deal with it then, as I did in the past. :)  the "pattern" seems odd though.
12:59:58  <Eddi|zuHause> how is it that cats always occupy the space you want to occupy?
13:00:30  <Pikka> like there's a counter which is overflowing...
13:00:58  <Eddi|zuHause> if i want to go to bet, they lie on the bed, if i want to sit on the chair, they lie on the chair, if i want to get dressed they lie on the clothes, ... :p
13:01:08  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: whatever space I occupy, babies want me out of it, for one reason or another
13:01:55  <Eddi|zuHause> if i want to go down the stairs, they are on the step directly below, for every step
13:03:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i think Schrödinger never observed the right quantum effects with his cat
13:03:51  <andythenorth> I just had to move off the sofa
13:03:52  <andythenorth> again
13:03:59  <andythenorth> so the toddler can watch tv
13:04:55  <Eddi|zuHause> just record the show, cut out the commercials, and he will watch TV for 40% shorter time :)
13:05:38  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: just sit on them; they should be able to learn it
13:06:30  <Eddi|zuHause> postulate: "cats don't occupy any space until you try to move"
13:07:04  <Eddi|zuHause> "then they occupy exactly the space that you want to move to"
13:07:21  <andythenorth> there's probably a game idea in it
13:07:29  <jonty-comp> don't blink
13:07:32  <andythenorth> reminds me of old BBC micro games
13:09:28  <andythenorth> hmm
13:09:44  <andythenorth> FISH has info about propulsion type of the ship
13:09:52  <andythenorth> is that worth bothering with?
13:10:23  <Pikka> I'm not even putting info about the propulsion type of my trains any more :)
13:10:31  * Pikka bedtime
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13:12:05  <andythenorth> I kind of like the propulsion info
13:12:11  <andythenorth> but I have boats with 100 year model life
13:12:25  <andythenorth> propelled by: steam, compound steam, diesel, waterjet
13:12:52  <andythenorth> changing the string is faff
13:14:06  <andythenorth> going going
13:14:08  <andythenorth> gone
13:16:34  <Eddi|zuHause> there was recently a TV show who mocked around monopoly replacing the flat-iron piece with a cat, that now the flat-iron tries to become as popular as cats on the internet. and one of the videos they parodized was the "don't blink cat" :(
13:16:39  <Eddi|zuHause> :)
13:17:46  <andythenorth> I wish newgrf lang was a database :P
13:17:51  <andythenorth> dropping a string is painful
13:17:53  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just introduce it as a new model with different running costs?
13:17:57  <andythenorth> dropping 10 strings is extra painful
13:18:10  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: sed/awk?
13:18:26  <andythenorth> requires andythenorth to be more clever
13:18:27  <andythenorth> :(
13:18:47  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r25005 trunk/src/lang/unfinished/gaelic.txt (2013-02-16 12:28:45 UTC)
13:18:48  <DorpsGek> -Add: Scottish Gaelic
13:19:10  <Eddi|zuHause> "sed -i /STR_BLAH/d" or something
13:19:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd have to look up the exact thing
13:20:39  <andythenorth> hmm
13:20:43  <andythenorth> one day I'll learn sed
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13:20:54  <andythenorth> I figure not doing that is wasting a lot of my time :P
13:22:31  <Eddi|zuHause> just put the command into a "drop_sting.sh" file :)
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13:22:45  <Eddi|zuHause> *drop_string
13:23:07  <Alberth> hello again
13:24:32  <andythenorth> upgraded?
13:24:46  <Alberth> sort of, the base system is up again :)
13:25:13  <Alberth> I am sure I am still missing lots of packages :)
13:30:03  <andythenorth> hmm
13:30:08  <andythenorth> nmlc can use a different lang folder?
13:31:58  <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably a parameter
13:32:49  <andythenorth> it is
13:33:00  <andythenorth> hmm
13:33:06  <andythenorth> the FISH makefile appears to be an nfo one
13:33:13  <andythenorth> works with nml
13:33:19  <andythenorth> :o
13:39:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i was under the impression the makefile was a plugin-style system
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13:40:01  <andythenorth> pl*netmaker would know :)
13:40:08  <andythenorth> I just am glad that it works
13:42:13  <planetmaker> yes... and no. I've written and re-written makefile(s) so often... it's hard to say
13:42:31  <planetmaker> depends on which you actually got :D
13:42:41  <jonty-comp> haha
13:42:47  <jonty-comp> nice post there planetmaker
13:42:52  <planetmaker> :D
13:42:59  <Eddi|zuHause> why does the +5V sensor say +2.98V?
13:43:00  <jonty-comp> i totally forgot the openttd forum was tt-forums :p
13:43:31  <planetmaker> within specs?
13:43:35  <planetmaker> different ground?
13:45:58  <Eddi|zuHause> "intrusion0:  ALARM"... soso...
13:48:21  <Alberth> a burglar in your computer!!!
13:49:15  <andythenorth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3806/squid_capacity_strings.png
13:49:26  <andythenorth> the extra info about capacity is ugly
13:49:27  <andythenorth> ^^
13:49:33  <andythenorth> (end of the buy menu)
13:49:51  <planetmaker> yes
13:50:23  <planetmaker> I think it doesn't matter exactly, if capacity of other cargos is in the range of the default one
13:51:29  <andythenorth> certainly there's no point repeating the pax capacity if pax is default cargo
13:52:36  <planetmaker> but hard to know the default cargo
13:53:58  <andythenorth> it's a property in the config
13:54:14  <andythenorth> if some industry grf removes pax, well meh :)
13:55:39  <planetmaker> yes, that's why :-)
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13:59:03  <andythenorth> hmm
13:59:49  <andythenorth> I want a nice way to work out the parent class of an entity from its subclass
14:00:10  <andythenorth> i.e. I know it's a fast_ferry, ferry, or whatever
14:00:22  <andythenorth> in python
14:00:42  <andythenorth> I could do a dict of horrible mappings
14:00:54  <andythenorth> ach I'll do that, it's simplest
14:02:51  <frosch123> 144 tons of suspicious lasagne found :)
14:03:04  <frosch123> i am surprised how many horses are around
14:03:34  <jonty-comp> i thought that
14:03:42  <jonty-comp> surely there aren't that many horses for this whole thing to be viable
14:05:56  <Rubidium> frosch123: all those 8 year old girls wanting and getting a pony, but once they are like 16 they want to get rid of them
14:06:05  <frosch123> :)
14:06:24  <planetmaker> if lasagne contains 10% meat... it's 14 tons of meat. And even that is much meat content and if 100% of the meat is horse
14:06:28  <frosch123> so it's andy's fault
14:07:00  <andythenorth> mmm
14:07:02  <andythenorth> ponies
14:07:36  <Rubidium> also... it'll be 144 tons of probably mislabeled lasagna
14:13:59  <andythenorth> ooh
14:14:04  <andythenorth> fish r1k getting close
14:19:46  <V453000> didnt fish get eaten? :P
14:20:30  <Alberth> it wiggled its way out of it :)
14:20:31  <Eddi|zuHause> have you ever met a girl that actually GOT a pony?
14:20:51  <planetmaker> my sister. But those are full-grown horses
14:21:01  <frosch123> i am not sure about pony/horse
14:21:10  <planetmaker> and she got them at her wedding
14:21:11  <frosch123> but yes, i have met several girls with horses
14:21:35  <planetmaker> but indeed ^
14:22:12  <frosch123> i think those girls i think of got their horse like other youth get a moped
14:22:18  <frosch123> with 16 or 18 or so
14:23:06  <planetmaker> yes, some of my friends had some back then, too
14:23:17  <planetmaker> gotta live in the country side ;-)
14:23:39  <frosch123> otoh the girls at age 8 who team up with their friends to save a few euros every week from their pocket money... they usually do not end up with horses :)
14:23:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i just had a pizza with horse-salami and horse-mushrooms, anyway...
14:24:02  <planetmaker> yes, tasty
14:24:03  <frosch123> horse-mushrooms :)
14:24:53  <planetmaker> iew... those horses won't be tasty anymore then :D
14:25:19  <frosch123> apparently they are called sheep-mushrooms in german :p
14:26:15  <andythenorth> V453000: fish ate squid instead
14:26:26  <frosch123> there is always a bigger fish
14:26:38  <andythenorth> hmm
14:26:44  <andythenorth> Squid includes trawlers
14:27:02  <andythenorth> I was going to give them 30t of fish cargo in holds, or 15t or so of any cargo on deck
14:27:10  <andythenorth> dunno if that's good
14:27:21  <Eddi|zuHause> probably not
14:27:50  <andythenorth> because...?
14:28:11  <Eddi|zuHause> just make a normal ship and have them show up as fish trawlers if refitted to fish (trawler) subtype
14:28:43  <andythenorth> ugh
14:28:45  <andythenorth> subtypes :)
14:29:02  <Eddi|zuHause> subtypes so it won't be used with normal autorefit
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15:40:14  <Markk> Good day everone.
15:40:34  <Kylar> good day
15:40:46  <Markk> How do you say: "I have written to you on Facebook chat, can you please check it out?" in German?
15:40:59  <Kylar> go:google translate
15:41:12  <Markk> I could of course use Google Translate, but that wouldn't be especially grammatically correct.
15:41:16  <Markk> I'm afraid.
15:42:03  <Kylar> grammar is pretty much consistent in all languages
15:42:18  <Kylar> a comma is a comma, etc
15:42:23  <Alberth> the chat language was no problem, but this message is?
15:43:04  <Kylar> im confused lol
15:43:13  <Alberth> me too :)
15:44:03  <Kylar> lol
15:45:02  <Kylar> too early for beer?
15:46:38  <Alberth> if you need to drive today, it is probably :)
15:47:16  <Kylar> I dont hold a licence so I'm OK lol
15:47:44  <Alberth> :)
15:47:51  <Kylar> I have my fella to act as chauffeur
15:48:22  <andythenorth> biab
15:48:25  <andythenorth> duties
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15:49:32  <Alberth>  I just walk :p
15:49:44  <Markk> I have a flu atm.
15:49:51  <Markk> So my head is not really clear.
15:49:54  <Kylar> I live on the top of a mountain in the middle of Spain, I aint walking anywhere
15:50:09  <Markk> Just jump down, a lot quicker.
15:50:16  <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: Do you fancy helping me? :)
15:50:22  <Kylar> Lots of fluids for you then Markk
15:50:24  <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: I know that you're a nice fellow.
15:55:24  <Markk> Kylar: Yes, I've taken a double dosage of acetylsalicylic acid (or aspirin as many countries call it), 1 gram of paracetamol (or as the yankees calls it: acetaminophen), I've drank quite a lot of water as well (the form of acetylsalicylic acid I took is fizzies, the name is Treo), and then I took some diclofenac as a gel and applied to my neck and shoulders.
15:55:54  <Markk> Also some muscle relaxant and a bit stronger pain killer that I have prescriped.
15:56:05  <Markk> So I'm starting to feel a bit normal.
15:56:16  <Markk> I really, really, want to be normal today.
15:56:38  <Eddi|zuHause> you probably shouldn't be doing german in this state :p
15:56:53  <Eddi|zuHause> so what have you come up with so far?
15:58:08  <Kylar> Markk, you are aware that you can take paracetamol and ibuprofen together don't you
15:58:23  <Markk> Kylar: Yes, I know.
15:58:39  <Kylar> ibuprofen is quite good with the flu
15:58:41  <Markk> I didn't take any ibuprofen though.
15:58:49  <Markk> Only aspirin.
15:58:53  <Markk> Both are NSAIDs.
15:59:04  <Markk> And paracetamol isn't a NSAID.
15:59:07  <Kylar> as it's an anti inflam it will take the swelling off the muscle
15:59:43  <Kylar> also warm lemonade with whisky
15:59:52  <Markk> yer
16:00:37  <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: But anyway, how do you say "can you please check X, because I've written a message there for you." in German?
16:01:11  <Kylar> booze and meds, fabulous darling!
16:01:46  <Eddi|zuHause> Markk: you do the words and i help you arrange them in the right way, deal? :)
16:02:14  <Kylar> i could do with someone doing that for me with spanish!
16:03:07  <Markk> Kylar: Don't really like alcohol like that.
16:03:12  <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: hm
16:03:35  <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: So I shall find the german words for it any you help me to correct the grammar?
16:04:06  <Kylar> get yourself a cheap bottle of whiskey and have a few hot toddies.
16:04:29  <Markk> Not like I can buy whiskey at this hour.
16:05:19  <Kylar> grammar is grammar regardless, all languages have commas, apostrophes, full stops etc. They generally are placed the same as English
16:05:26  <Kylar> and what time is it Markk
16:06:02  <Eddi|zuHause> why would there be a time limit for buxing whiskey?
16:06:04  <Markk> 04:16 pm
16:06:25  <Eddi|zuHause> s/x/y/
16:06:36  <Kylar> it's after 12!
16:07:20  <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: "Können Sie bitte eine Nachricht, dass ich fÌr dich schrieb bei Facebook?"
16:07:34  <Markk> Kylar, Eddi|zuHause: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systembolaget
16:07:39  <Markk> Read that article.
16:07:42  <Kylar> mmm whiskey
16:07:45  <Markk> Then you'll understand.
16:08:17  <Kylar> ahhh didnt reallise you were in sweden
16:08:39  <Markk> :)
16:08:42  <Kylar> I actually want to return
16:08:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Markk: step 1) i'd reverse those two parts, first say what you did, then what the other person should do.
16:08:57  <Markk> I have some liqour in the fridge though.
16:09:17  <Kylar> what is it?
16:09:45  <Markk> liquor*
16:09:50  <__ln__> it's a closet which stays cold and keeps food fresh.
16:09:55  <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: This was the meaning that I translated: "Can you please check a message that I wrote for you on Facebook?"
16:10:07  <Markk> __ln__: :D
16:10:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Markk: yes, but i think it's bad style
16:10:35  <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: This was the first part I translated: "can you please check the Facebook, because I've written a message there for you"
16:10:40  <Markk> ""können Sie ÌberprÌfen Sie bitte die Facebook, weil ich dort eine Nachricht fÌr Sie geschrieben habe
16:10:44  <Markk> "*
16:10:45  * NGC3982 invades finland.
16:11:31  <Kylar> I want to invade one of the OTT servers but the connection keeps dropping :(
16:11:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Kylar: the map is too big?
16:12:23  <Eddi|zuHause> Kylar: there is a timelimit for downloading the map, and then a time limit for catching up with the server
16:13:23  <Kylar> it's a pain in the ass
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16:14:28  <Kylar> I'm going to leave it for now - I think windows is downloading updates, so it's taking up a fair whack of my bandwidth
16:16:50  <Kylar> how do you start a multiplayer game?
16:17:49  <frosch123> you click multiplayer
16:18:39  <Kylar> sorry, I meant host a multiplayer game
16:18:56  <Alberth> you click multiplayer :)
16:19:11  <frosch123> https://secure.openttd.org/wiki/Server
16:19:12  <Kylar> OK! No need to be smart arses
16:19:24  <Kylar> cheers frosch
16:20:01  <frosch123> not sure whether the info is complete you might also need:
16:20:03  <frosch123> @ports
16:20:03  <DorpsGek> frosch123: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
16:20:44  <Alberth> yeah, port forwarding is always a mess to set up
16:21:24  <frosch123> just play only lan :p
16:21:27  <jonty-comp> can't you make bananas just download over http? then that's one less port
16:21:44  <Kylar> I'm not quite that good on the PC lol. I'll have a play with it and see what I can do
16:21:48  <jonty-comp> although i'm sure such has been discussed before
16:22:11  <frosch123> jonty-comp: it uses http for some stuff, but some stuff cannot be made available via http
16:22:30  <Kylar> When my fellas stopped streaming youtubes entire video archive
16:25:01  <jonty-comp> ah
16:27:14  <Kylar> hes a bleeding nightmare when hes on youtube, you'd think he was downloading the entire internet
16:29:02  <Kylar> right, im gonna make a move need a bath
16:29:09  <Kylar> cyas later
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17:12:27  <andythenorth> hmm
17:12:39  <andythenorth> I've banned Fish cargo from most of the ferries
17:12:53  <andythenorth> because going fishing with ferries is a silly
17:16:15  <andythenorth> petrol on ferries?
17:16:52  <andythenorth> nah
17:20:35  <andythenorth> tankers carrying alcohol?
17:20:39  <andythenorth> happens irl
17:20:45  <kormer> Does anyone here have any clue why GSTown.ExpandTown(this.id,1); would only ever work on a single town and not the others?
17:21:29  <jonty-comp> man i would like to hijack an oil tanker if it was full of alcohol
17:21:45  <kormer> I've got conditional checks before that, and I'm logging the parameters inside the condition, so I know it's being executed on the other towns, it just isn't doing anything.
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17:23:02  <andythenorth> jonty-comp: http://www.shipspotting.com/gallery/search.php?search_category_1=64
17:23:29  <andythenorth> guiness tanker http://www.shipspotting.com/gallery/photo.php?lid=1623032
17:23:48  <jonty-comp> aw, they aren't big enough
17:33:11  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25006 /trunk/src/script/api (game/game_window.hpp.sq script_window.hpp) (2013-02-16 16:43:05 UTC)
17:33:12  <DorpsGek> -Fix: Update script_window.
17:38:17  <andythenorth> hmm
17:38:19  <andythenorth> container ship
17:38:26  <andythenorth> allow bulk cargos like coal?
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17:45:33  <andythenorth> nah
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18:24:10  <__ln__> can someone point me to a definition for 'platform' in computing context? some sort of textbook or something, not wikipedia.
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18:43:56  * Zuu published some preliminary patches of click-on-string. They need some overlook on naming of things etc.
18:44:19  <Zuu> I wrote a wiki too: https://secure.openttd.org/wiki/Zuu/click-on-string
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18:49:42  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: i don't remember ever seeing such a thing
18:52:24  <terjesc> __ln__: I have searched some of my CS books, but can't find any of them mentioning 'platform'.
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18:54:22  <jonty-comp> aaah the scary moment when you take your backup server offline to replace a disk
18:54:42  <jonty-comp> and have to watch your coworker on the live camera taking it to bits
18:54:48  <jonty-comp> pls to not break my backup
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18:56:29  <supermop> hello!
18:57:31  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, plus to not breaking backups
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18:57:55  <__ln__> zomg, i think i've found a definition through books.google.com. in short, "The platform is the set of software and hardware services that are provided to the application."
18:58:23  <terjesc> __ln__: "Distributed Systems - Concepts and Designs", fourth edition, Addison Wesley (ISBN 978-0-321-26354-4) has a description on page 32.
18:58:50  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that's about what i would have come up with... "the combination of hardware and operating system environment"
18:59:13  <terjesc> Along with a figure showing the layers of a system: Computer and network hardware, operating system, middleware and applications/services. The two bottom layers are marked "Platform".
19:00:10  <__ln__> thanks terjesc, i'll have a look at that book as well.
19:00:50  *** Markavian [~Markavian@78-105-168-146.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:00:54  <terjesc> "The lowest-level hardware and software layers are often referred to as a platform for distributed systems and applications. (...) Intel x86/Windows, Intel x86/Solaris, PowerPC/Mac OS X (...) are major examples."
19:01:18  <terjesc> __ln__: np
19:01:23  <terjesc> (=
19:01:48  <__ln__> for the record, the one that i found was in "Embedded System Design" by Gajski et al.
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19:03:01  <__ln__> terjesc: ah, that's even a better definition for my purposes.
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19:04:21  <Alberth> the lowest level are indivual logic gates, imho
19:04:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: not if you consider "hardware" as one monolithic level ;)
19:05:15  <Alberth> and the lowest software level is probably in programming the CPU instructions
19:05:47  <terjesc> In this context it is "hardware" (as a whole) and "operating system". q:
19:06:46  *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:06:47  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that is a semantical layer ("lower level programming language" vs. "higher level programming language), not a logical layer (direct interfacing with hardware, vs. indirect interfacing with hardware)
19:06:52  <Alberth> why not just use "operating system?"
19:07:08  <__ln__> because the OS is not the same as platform
19:07:36  <terjesc> "Platform" is all the way down from OS to HW, while OS is just the OS.
19:07:40  <__ln__> Linux on i386 is in many sense not the same platform as Linux on ARMv6
19:08:05  <Alberth> it is? all standard unix utilities work the same
19:08:25  <Alberth> and one cc further, you have an arbitrary app running
19:08:46  <terjesc> Not necessarily.
19:09:26  <Alberth> if you write good C/C++, it is
19:09:33  <__ln__> let's say a platform is binary-compatible with itself. m'kay?
19:09:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: they may be interface compatible, but not binary compatible
19:09:51  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: hence 'cc', ie build from source
19:10:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: so "platform" is now including the compiler?
19:10:34  <Alberth> OS does
19:10:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i really doubt that
19:12:08  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i don't think many people have compilers on their phones
19:12:30  <Eddi|zuHause> yet "iPhone/iOS" is a platform in every sense of the word
19:13:05  <Alberth> like it is uniform hardware :p
19:14:00  <Alberth> we have very nice experiences with patches that worked on one i* machine failed on another :D
19:14:37  <Eddi|zuHause> what does that have to do with anything?
19:14:48  <terjesc> Is that to say you wrote bad code?
19:15:36  <Eddi|zuHause> nobody said a platform can't have "poorly documented features"
19:15:47  <Alberth> terjesc: impossible to say, with lack of sane documentation
19:15:53  <terjesc> (=
19:17:00  <Alberth> but you see the same mess with your average PC card, manufacturers constantly switch components to save a few cents
19:18:28  <terjesc> Well, anyway, the way I have seen the term "platform" used is to describe OS and the CPU Instruction Set Architecture.
19:19:14  <terjesc> Of course there are different CPU vendors and a myriad of other hardware in a machine.
19:25:23  *** Bad_Brett [~bad@78-69-118-27-no42.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #openttd
19:25:30  <Bad_Brett> good evening
19:26:16  <supermop> hi
19:29:59  <oskari89> Oh why there can't be drag&drop for objects...
19:30:38  <oskari89> Dutch Road Furniture would be more comfortable to use with that drag&drop
19:35:13  <Rubidium> because nobody bothered to come up with a decent specification
19:36:00  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25007 /trunk/src/lang (9 files) (2013-02-16 18:45:45 UTC)
19:36:01  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:36:02  <DorpsGek> bulgarian - 15 changes by ivanarj
19:36:04  <DorpsGek> esperanto - 1 changes by Asakha
19:36:05  <DorpsGek> greek - 41 changes by Evropi
19:36:06  <DorpsGek> hungarian - 24 changes by oklmernok
19:36:07  <DorpsGek> icelandic - 4 changes by Stimrol
19:36:08  <DorpsGek> japanese - 50 changes by Aknuth
19:36:09  <DorpsGek> korean - 2 changes by telk5093
19:36:10  <DorpsGek> norwegian_nynorsk - 1 changes by skjaeve
19:36:11  <DorpsGek> polish - 4 changes by wojteks86
19:36:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i think we had that same discussion a week ago :p
19:37:20  <Rubidium> as long as "we" doesn't include me, then yes that's possible. Otherwise, I can't remember a thing of it
19:41:54  <peter1138> ooh, rgb colour maps still compiles :p
19:42:03  <oskari89> *sigh* diagonal roads could be nice too...
19:42:07  <peter1138> hotpink company colour
19:42:09  <peter1138> lovely
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19:49:17  <supermop> rgb color maps...?
19:56:08  <peter1138> colour maps
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20:05:21  <supermop> like the world map?
20:06:03  <peter1138> heh, no, company colour recoloring
20:06:06  <peter1138> *recolouring
20:06:47  <oskari89> Is there any patch "Clone x number of vehicles with one click?
20:07:29  <peter1138> yes but it's pretty old
20:07:55  <supermop> to arbitrary rgb values?
20:08:01  *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-68-175-24-89.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd
20:08:06  <peter1138> yes
20:08:11  <supermop> cool'
20:08:44  <peter1138> 32bpp blitter only feature, heh
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20:13:06  <V453000> when will colours be in trunk peter1138? :)
20:20:37  <Eddi|zuHause> there are colours in trunk
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20:25:12  <peter1138> :-)
20:33:01  <Snail> tbh I'm comfortable with the default 256 colors, especially since the sprites are so small
20:33:31  <Snail> we could use an extra set of shades of red though :p
20:35:13  <frosch123> use the fire cycle :p
20:35:18  <frosch123> it's red
20:35:28  <frosch123> maybe some yellow
20:35:50  <Rubidium> that's also a shade of red, isn't it?
20:36:17  <Rubidium> just a bit too much green ;)
20:37:53  <NGC3982> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Fl0TEtHvvO0
20:37:57  <NGC3982> :D
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20:40:36  <peter1138> wut
20:41:55  <Rubidium> looks like a typical Japanese commercial
20:48:00  <Snail> the fire cycle is made of blinking pixels :p
20:48:54  <Snail> and tbh I love all those different greens :D
20:56:24  <peter1138> http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/recolour3.png < more greens
20:56:59  <andythenorth> yummy
20:58:58  <Eddi|zuHause> so, who is going to reattach my retina now? :p
20:59:17  <peter1138> :D
20:59:32  <frosch123> educate your cats
20:59:40  <frosch123> they could even show you the path at night
21:01:28  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: obviously someone from the genius bar
21:04:41  <andythenorth> should I ban bulk cargos from the cargo hovercraft?
21:05:50  <frosch123> maybe you could reduce the running cost, if it transports hover boards
21:07:21  <andythenorth> what about helium?
21:07:27  <andythenorth> or anti-grav?
21:07:56  <Eddi|zuHause> make an anti-grav cargo class?
21:08:26  <andythenorth> appealing
21:08:34  <andythenorth> where does it go?
21:09:14  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Probabaly don't ban them, just increase the running cost until it's uneconomic to use them :P
21:09:25  <andythenorth> fiddlesticks
21:09:28  <FLHerne> Same as helicopters...
21:09:32  <andythenorth> running cost is not a gameplay factor
21:09:44  <andythenorth> the only things that matter are refits, capacity and speed
21:09:51  <andythenorth> the rest is piffle
21:09:55  <andythenorth> :)
21:10:07  <FLHerne> Increase the running cost until it *is* a factor, then :P
21:10:17  * FLHerne is already a basecosts-grf user
21:10:51  <andythenorth> yeah
21:11:02  <andythenorth> that's why in MP you have double-headed electrics on every cargo :P
21:11:09  <andythenorth> because you care so much :D
21:11:18  <andythenorth> or was that scuddles?
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21:11:53  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: set cargp aging on "slow" ships so the speed doesn't matter...
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21:13:24  <frosch123> andythenorth: surely overall cost do not matter. but unprofitable routes are a pain to see
21:14:05  <andythenorth> I've forgotten how classes work
21:14:08  <Rubidium> just needs the cargodist 'capacity' overlay that shows the average profit of the trains passing there
21:14:37  <andythenorth> if cargo is piece, covered, and my vehicle is piece, and doesn't exclude covered
21:14:39  <andythenorth> then all is well?
21:17:17  *** tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:17:47  <andythenorth> yeah it will be fine
21:18:49  <andythenorth> so
21:18:55  <andythenorth> tankers carrying milk?
21:19:00  <andythenorth> seems a bit off
21:19:45  <Eddi|zuHause> exclude piece?
21:19:59  <andythenorth> yes
21:20:01  <Eddi|zuHause> just don't exclude liquid on the piece-freighter then
21:20:16  <andythenorth> I'm preferring to exclude known cargos in fact
21:20:24  <Eddi|zuHause> assuming milk is piece,liquid
21:20:25  <andythenorth> excluding unknown cargos by class is prone to breaking classes
21:20:38  <andythenorth> classes / class based refitting /s
21:20:42  <andythenorth> as Zeph proved :P
21:21:05  <Eddi|zuHause> you just have to make sure you have one "monotonous" refit mask
21:21:40  <Eddi|zuHause> so if you ever exclude a cargo class, you need to have a vehicle that includes this mask and does not exclude any others
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21:25:38  <FLHerne> andythenorth: That's atypical of me (delayed response) :P
21:26:22  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Different settings, and competetiveness - normally I try to use every vehicle at least once :D
21:26:40  <andythenorth> :)
21:27:29  <andythenorth> can't decide if ferries can deliver petrol
21:27:30  <andythenorth> irl, yes
21:27:37  <andythenorth> but this igw
21:27:52  <andythenorth> plenty of other ships carrying petrol
21:29:45  <andythenorth> mail in container ships?
21:29:49  <andythenorth> FISH said no
21:29:54  <andythenorth> Squid could say yes
21:29:58  <andythenorth> vote now :P
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21:31:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't decide that
21:32:07  <andythenorth> there are no shortage of ships for carrying mail
21:32:13  <Eddi|zuHause> you'd want to have mail/armored/express in faster ships
21:32:21  <andythenorth> of similar capacities and speed as the container ships
21:32:25  *** joho [~joho@takamachi.nanoha.se] has quit [Server closed connection]
21:32:25  <andythenorth> so I think no
21:32:31  <andythenorth> it's just logically a bit odd
21:32:37  *** joho [~joho@takamachi.nanoha.se] has joined #openttd
21:33:14  <andythenorth> mail clearly goes by container http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=dhl+container&hl=en&client=safari&tbo=d&rls=en&biw=1276&bih=668&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=Wu8fUfMpqv_hBLzpgcAH&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAQ
21:33:16  *** FLHerne_ [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd
21:33:42  <FLHerne_> Petrol on ferries - I doubt it in useful quantities, they don't normally like hazardous substances...
21:33:56  <Eddi|zuHause> excluding mail on "cargo" ships may be better for cerain autorefit cases
21:34:06  <FLHerne_> Voting no for containerised mail
21:34:33  <andythenorth> I even have this on my desk at work http://www.scalefarm.com/products/D-00620-Z.jpg
21:34:40  <andythenorth> but no to mail
21:34:43  <andythenorth> and no to petrol on ferries
21:35:07  <andythenorth> hmm
21:35:20  <andythenorth> changing subject, FIRS needs lot of translation updates still
21:35:24  <andythenorth> I could release 0.9.3 then
21:35:26  <andythenorth> or before :P
21:35:28  <FLHerne_> Probably not the kind of domestic mail I'd imagine in OTTD for that?
21:35:36  <andythenorth> +1
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21:36:44  <andythenorth> hmm
21:36:50  <andythenorth> no you won't go fishing by hovercraft
21:37:08  <planetmaker> :-)
21:37:34  <andythenorth> there are probably all kinds of cases about shipping large amounts of frozen fish and such
21:37:35  <andythenorth> but meh
21:38:43  <Eddi|zuHause> excluding fish is a nice idea
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21:39:11  <andythenorth> there's probably a pun in this somewhere
21:39:15  <andythenorth> FISH: doesn't refit Fish
21:39:33  *** FLHerne [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:41:05  <andythenorth> there are trawlers :P
21:41:14  <andythenorth> and big general cargo ships that refit anything
21:41:20  <frosch123> not transporting fish would break firs, wouldn't it? :p
21:41:39  <frosch123> also, is is very common that big fish have smaller fish in their stomache
21:41:40  <andythenorth> yup :)
21:41:57  <andythenorth> some 'trawlers' are big.  I won't be including this http://www.scheveningen-haven.nl/info/overschepen/Atlantic.htm
21:42:00  <andythenorth> 7,000t capacity
21:42:09  <peter1138> do it
21:42:22  <andythenorth> 3x longer than the largest ship in FISH
21:42:27  <andythenorth> might glitch
21:42:34  <peter1138> finescale
21:42:40  <andythenorth> @calc 7000/45
21:42:40  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 155.555555556
21:42:48  <andythenorth> you would need 155 fishing grounds to fill it in one month
21:43:02  <andythenorth> maybe an add-on set :P
21:43:12  <Alberth> but luckily it cannot transport fish :p
21:44:28  <peter1138> a trawler that can't trawl fish?
21:44:32  <andythenorth> Squid Jigging, apparently http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jigging
21:44:57  * andythenorth digresses
21:45:11  <andythenorth> so who's got a spec for ships with multiple cargo holds?
21:46:37  <peter1138> you
21:46:40  <andythenorth> k
21:46:43  <andythenorth> ships have 2 holds
21:46:49  <peter1138> ok
21:46:50  <andythenorth> each can be refitted independently
21:47:05  <andythenorth> capacity can be set for each independently
21:47:19  <andythenorth> cb36 can handle changing properties on 1st or 2nd hold
21:47:31  <andythenorth> some authors will ask for more than 2 holds
21:47:35  <andythenorth> they only get 2
21:47:41  <andythenorth> done
21:47:44  <andythenorth> new GUI
21:47:58  <andythenorth> holds can be named by newgrf
21:48:08  <andythenorth> 'Holds | Cabins'
21:48:13  <andythenorth> 'Holds | Deck Cargo'
21:48:19  <andythenorth> 'Tanks | Deck Cargo'
21:48:19  <andythenorth> etc
21:48:40  <andythenorth> each hold has a refit mask (classes, labels)
21:48:59  <andythenorth> don't arse about with loading speed per hold, unless it's easier to just allow it
21:50:01  <andythenorth> cb 36 gains a var to check which hold is being modified?
21:50:09  <andythenorth> purchase menu crap needs handling
21:53:31  <peter1138> fish is a stupid cargo anyway
21:53:58  <peter1138> you're a transport tycoon, not a fisherman
21:54:06  <andythenorth> tra la la la
21:54:18  <peter1138> DHL don't have fishing subsidiaries do they?
21:54:20  <andythenorth> that was like 10 weeks of discussion in the FIRS dev thread
21:54:25  <peter1138> :D
21:54:31  <andythenorth> it went back and forth, forth and back
21:54:35  <andythenorth> forth and fifth
21:54:43  <andythenorth> then I did it anyway
21:54:45  <andythenorth> I like fishing
21:54:50  <andythenorth> I like deadliest catch
21:56:42  <Eddi|zuHause> "one of these cargos is not like the others"
21:57:31  *** LSky` [~x@5ED5A444.cm-7-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd
21:58:41  <LSky`> hey everyone, im trying to get my server back online after I updated it to a new revision. However the two people who usually help me understand linux arent available at the moment, and Im a bit stuck. Anyone who could help me a little?
21:59:46  <Eddi|zuHause> no.
22:00:02  <planetmaker> LSky`, it needs somewhat more specific question...
22:00:06  <LSky`> the primary issue is that the autopilot script has stopped working correctly since i updated the server, but aside from that I cant get it to run manually either
22:00:45  <LSky`> from what i understand, im supposed to cd to the directly where the installation is located and then run something along the lines of; ./openttd -D -c openttd.cfg
22:01:24  <LSky`> but that gives me this error; ror: No available language packs (invalid versions?)
22:01:39  <planetmaker> then you didn't compile the languages
22:01:57  <planetmaker> ./configure && make
22:02:11  <planetmaker> or you encountered an error during compilation
22:02:33  <LSky`> i just did the compiling for the windows client, not the linux server, so thats a complicating factor
22:03:03  <LSky`> guess its back to the drawing board.
22:07:57  <LSky`> just to make sure, im not running into this issue?
22:07:58  <LSky`> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=54883#p948672
22:09:14  <andythenorth> logs via container ship?  allowed?
22:09:14  <planetmaker> very hard to tell. We don't know how your server and the dirs look like
22:09:34  <planetmaker> I simply get a full checkout of openttd, compile it. And start it also from there
22:09:47  <LSky`> trying that now
22:09:52  <andythenorth> containerised logging http://www.ftdmag.co.nz/articles/dec08/images/log-container.gif
22:09:53  <andythenorth> right
22:10:11  <andythenorth> also http://www.transportation-expert.com/b2b/pics/Foldable_Log_Container.jpg
22:10:36  <Alberth> the former is meh, imho
22:10:53  <planetmaker> they also have their openttd.cfg right next to the binary. so no fancy paths need specification
22:11:03  <Eddi|zuHause> you have special ships for fish and logs, so exclude it
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22:11:25  <andythenorth> I am easily convinced
22:11:29  <Pikka> yes you are
22:11:38  <andythenorth> hey there's even a special machine for it http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/114589487/K_Loader.html
22:11:50  <andythenorth> Pikka: if 10CC is an elaborate troll of me...well :P
22:12:00  <andythenorth> of me?  aimed at me :P
22:12:00  <Pikka> :]
22:12:16  <andythenorth> so no wood by hovercraft
22:12:22  <andythenorth> no hover-logging
22:12:51  <Pikka> shameful display
22:12:52  <FLHerne_> andythenorth: Don't prohibit it, make it impractical :P
22:12:56  <FLHerne_> I said that already
22:13:01  <andythenorth> FLHerne_: it's boring to do that
22:13:13  <FLHerne_> Of course, you have a statutory right to ignore anything I say :D
22:13:17  <andythenorth> what you do is make a choice, then try to make it a non-choice :)
22:13:27  <andythenorth> which is just tedious cognitive work, and not really very gamey
22:13:59  <andythenorth> but thanks anyway ;)
22:14:30  <andythenorth> Pikka: have you done your industry grf yet?  I need to see if my ships refit for it sensibly :P
22:14:53  <Pikka> not yet :[
22:15:00  <Pikka> it's basically default cargos anyway
22:15:13  <Pikka> +gravel, "cement" and fertiliser
22:15:18  <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/fish/push/LATEST/
22:15:27  <Pikka> and plastic and lumber
22:15:28  <Pikka> or something
22:15:31  <andythenorth> I tested default and PBI
22:15:39  <andythenorth> refits seem ok to me
22:15:49  <andythenorth> didn't test Toyland with anything :P
22:15:53  <Pikka> good
22:16:21  <frosch123> lumber? why not wood or timber?
22:16:37  <Pikka> because wood is wood
22:16:48  <Pikka> and lumber is lumber
22:16:51  <andythenorth> it's semantic minefield :P
22:16:56  <Pikka> and "timber" is either in british english
22:17:02  <FLHerne_> andythenorth: ECS is common and overcomplex, is it not?
22:17:03  <FLHerne_> Might be worth testing that
22:17:20  <andythenorth> FLHerne_: are you volunteering? o_O Or would you volunteer someone else?
22:19:03  <FLHerne_> andythenorth: I could give it a try, I guess :P
22:19:16  <FLHerne_> Is relevant version on devzone?
22:19:24  <andythenorth> I just linked it above
22:19:56  <andythenorth> I volunteered myself though
22:20:06  <andythenorth> frick
22:20:12  <andythenorth> why does the container ship refit to tourists?
22:20:13  <andythenorth> that's dumb
22:20:48  <andythenorth> containerised tourists http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-u16YmVxrlas/T_khqc-3dyI/AAAAAAAAAAk/lzg5lPTTpww/s1600/Lego+Train.jpg
22:22:15  <andythenorth> George: Tourists...Express?  Really? :)
22:22:20  <andythenorth> that's necessary?
22:23:10  <Pikka> yes
22:23:41  <Pikka> if you want to deal with tourists you have to exclude passenger class
22:23:51  <andythenorth> I want to not deal with tourists :P
22:23:59  <andythenorth> I'll just exclude them
22:24:07  <Pikka> good idea
22:24:17  <Pikka> make everything explicitly not carry tourists
22:24:19  <andythenorth> from bloody every vehicle
22:24:25  <Pikka> they can walk, sod 'em
22:24:35  <andythenorth> ramblers
22:24:43  <FLHerne_> Why does ECS have tourists as a separate cargo anyway?
22:24:56  <FLHerne_> What stops them being like any other passenger?
22:25:04  <Pikka> for the same reason NARS2 has regearing
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22:25:10  <Pikka> it seemed like a good idea at the time
22:25:31  <Pikka> who knows, perhaps tourists continue to seem like a good idea to some :)
22:25:49  <andythenorth> should just change the class
22:27:28  <andythenorth> hmm
22:27:29  <Eddi|zuHause> tourists might be easier since autorefit, but very few sets support that yet
22:27:37  <andythenorth> ferries should carry ECS vehicles
22:27:39  <andythenorth> let's do that
22:27:46  * andythenorth doing ECS support? :o
22:27:59  <Eddi|zuHause> problem is that "articulated" vehicles like trams can only have either/or
22:28:02  <Eddi|zuHause> not mix both
22:28:35  <andythenorth> and that it has express set as a class :P
22:28:37  <andythenorth> which is silly
22:29:22  <Eddi|zuHause> another problem is that you should differentiate between "outgoing" and "incoming" tourists, so you can't circle them around between tourist centers
22:29:32  <andythenorth> anyway, there now, lots of ships that can carry ECS Vehicles
22:29:34  <andythenorth> how nice
22:33:43  <andythenorth> ECS oil well is nice
22:33:56  <andythenorth> Pikka: does ECS have your oil well graphics?
22:35:17  <Pikka> dunno
22:35:22  <Pikka> does it?
22:37:01  <Pikka> www.pikkarail.com/junk/andytroll.png
22:37:04  <Pikka> coming along
22:37:41  <andythenorth> that tractor is nice
22:38:21  <andythenorth> same size as an F unit eh?
22:38:36  <Pikka> is it?
22:38:55  <Pikka> it's longer, and less high :)
22:39:08  <Eddi|zuHause> is that supposed to be an american flag?
22:39:29  <Pikka> as it is in reality...
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22:39:33  <andythenorth> can you reuse the F for pineapple?
22:39:46  <Eddi|zuHause> in which reality? :)
22:40:11  <Pikka> no I can't, for a number of reasons
22:40:39  <Pikka> our loading gauge is UK-sized
22:40:51  <Pikka> we didn't have F Units :]
22:41:01  <andythenorth> are all those clyde things smaller then?
22:41:15  <Pikka> they had double-ended Co-Co F units down south, so if I do a general aus set I can reuse the front shape.
22:41:45  <Pikka> our clydes were all hood units
22:41:58  <andythenorth> I C
22:42:03  <Pikka> the only full-width diesels we had here were EE units
22:42:13  <Pikka> single-ended 37s :}
22:42:42  <FLHerne_> Pikka: How is a set with that few vehicles meant to be interesting? :P
22:42:51  <Eddi|zuHause> cold cat is cold...
22:43:01  <andythenorth> pikka there's always a counter-example :P http://www.flickriver.com/photos/imagegallery/3507216808/
22:43:21  <andythenorth> modified to au loading gauge
22:43:32  <andythenorth> but anyway
22:43:38  <Pikka> no, not modified
22:43:40  <Pikka> that's down south :P
22:43:52  <andythenorth> oh pineapple is localised :P
22:43:54  <andythenorth> I C
22:43:55  <Pikka> pineapple == queensland rail, 3'6" and UK loading gauge
22:44:09  <Pikka> <Pikka> they had double-ended Co-Co F units down south, so if I do a general aus set I can reuse the front shape.
22:44:10  <andythenorth> details details :)
22:44:10  <Pikka> :P
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22:45:02  * andythenorth considers 10CC NG
22:45:09  <andythenorth> european crap
22:45:14  <Pikka> don't :P
22:45:22  <andythenorth> cheap, gutless
22:45:36  <Pikka> http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd396/john_cleverdon/locopage2/1200_RedbankLMD_20070822.jpg
22:46:07  <Pikka> 1953, they predate 37s by a bit :)
22:46:07  <andythenorth> hmm
22:46:11  <andythenorth> uglys :)
22:46:24  <Pikka> they looked even uglier before they got the sunvisor added
22:47:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: so, what are the design principles behind 10CC again?
22:47:43  <Pikka> http://www.railpage.org.au/qrhistory/images/DieselElectric/1150/1150_19-12-87_Northgate.jpg and our first diesels, had the drawgear on the bogies like class 40s
22:49:45  * Pikka bbl
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22:52:54  <LordAro> heyo
22:55:29  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: http://pikkarail.com/openttd/state-of-the-onion-a-history-and-future-of-my-newgrfs/
22:55:35  <andythenorth> but he can speak for himself :)
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22:57:06  *** kormer936 is now known as kormer
22:57:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: if i were to reduce german engines to "100 years of development in 10 engines", i'd start with: P8, S3/6, 01, E18, E94, V200, 103, 132/232, 151, ICE1, ICE3 (yes, german trains go up to eleven :p)
22:58:22  * andythenorth was just thinking
22:58:30  <andythenorth> balancing HEQS was never a problem
22:58:36  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that doesn't specify the design goals
22:58:42  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: only some vague idea
22:58:48  <andythenorth> yeah, you need p*kka back for that :)
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22:58:58  <andythenorth> HEQS has _some_ silly pointless vehicles that could be cut
22:59:06  <andythenorth> but none of them use real names
22:59:25  <andythenorth> and HEQS doesn't try to represent a region or country or company
23:00:21  <frosch123> i guess if you would have to reduce it to a single engine, it would be 103 :p
23:00:45  <Eddi|zuHause> pretty much :p
23:01:47  <frosch123> anyway, i think 111 is missing in your list
23:02:08  <Eddi|zuHause> there's about two dozen missing in my list :p
23:02:29  <frosch123> i guess 111 should be there instead of 151
23:02:30  <Eddi|zuHause> which is why i won't try to mimic 10CC in CETS ;o
23:03:02  <Eddi|zuHause> the "problem" with the 111 is that it is in almost all in-game modeled properties inferior to the 103
23:03:27  <andythenorth> what would happen if you took the model numbers off?
23:03:39  <andythenorth> and used approximations for real locomotives
23:03:45  <andythenorth> that fit specific gameplay niches?
23:03:49  <andythenorth> can you get 10?
23:03:52  <frosch123> it would no longer be cets
23:03:56  <frosch123> but nuts
23:04:06  <frosch123> and nuts is already done
23:04:09  <Eddi|zuHause> pretty much ;)
23:04:19  <planetmaker> hihi :-)
23:04:33  <Eddi|zuHause> CETS and NUTS have very similar design principles
23:04:41  <Eddi|zuHause> except for the "realism"
23:05:15  <andythenorth> 10CC makes more sense combined
23:05:27  <andythenorth> so set A might be heavily biased to electric power
23:05:49  <andythenorth> set B under-powered, cheap engines to be combined in multiple
23:05:53  <planetmaker> how's that specific to 10CC as opposed to existing sets?
23:06:03  <andythenorth> it's not specific to 10CC
23:06:14  <andythenorth> it's just the context where 10CC makes sense
23:06:20  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: P8 is a quite nice alround engine to start with, E94 and 151 are nice (electric) freight engines, as is 132/232 (diesel), the other are mostly express engines
23:06:58  <andythenorth> planetmaker: btw, how many engines in OpenGFX + Trains?
23:07:18  <planetmaker> one, two more than in TTD
23:08:15  <Eddi|zuHause> if you want to focus more on electrics, take out the S3/6 and put in the E16 instead
23:08:54  <andythenorth> planetmaker: when we played MP with OpenGFX + Trains, were we ever short of the right engine?
23:08:55  <Eddi|zuHause> then you have P8, 01, V200 and 132/232 as non-electric
23:09:19  <Eddi|zuHause> E16, E18, 103, ICE1, ICE3 as express electric
23:09:27  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6D5DA.versanet.de] has joined #openttd
23:09:30  <Eddi|zuHause> and E94, 151 as freight electric
23:09:31  <planetmaker> andythenorth, no. But that just proves that default engines are quite well-designed :D
23:09:42  <andythenorth> I count 9 conventional rail engines in that set :)
23:09:57  <andythenorth> in tropic
23:10:02  <Eddi|zuHause> but "focus on electric" might be better suited for a "swiss" set
23:10:09  <frosch123> andythenorth: that's silly. we play for 7 years
23:10:18  <Eddi|zuHause> as they have almost exclusively electrics
23:10:25  <andythenorth> frosch123: playing for 7 years is silly? o_O
23:10:31  <andythenorth> I take the point
23:10:44  <andythenorth> but no-one is proposing rm-ing the existing big sets?
23:10:47  <frosch123> ofc there are not many engines within 7 years
23:10:49  <andythenorth> unless they break Bananas ToS
23:10:50  <andythenorth> :P
23:11:32  <frosch123> unless you play with daylength factor 38919
23:11:36  <andythenorth> he he
23:11:39  <andythenorth> daylength :P
23:12:45  <Eddi|zuHause> before you introduce daylength, you should make autosave based on real-time instead of game time
23:13:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. "every 2/5/15 minutes"
23:13:33  <andythenorth> is that daylength thread still running?
23:13:34  <planetmaker> except when paused?
23:13:39  <andythenorth> I've gone snow blind to it :P
23:13:51  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: especially when paused
23:13:54  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i thought it should be based on number of user actions
23:14:40  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, "especially when paused" is something I explicitly would NOT want.
23:14:56  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: you can do lots of things with build-while-paused
23:15:00  <frosch123> planetmaker: you need it when playing with build in pause mode
23:15:06  <planetmaker> It will overwrite all meaningful savegames over night with the same. So then there'll be nothing to go back to when something went wrong or malicious action taken
23:15:14  <frosch123> but you do not want to autosave when leaving the computer on its own in pause
23:15:16  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: and also the scenario editor is "totally broken" because it has no autosave
23:15:25  <frosch123> so, the only sensible thing is to use "user action"
23:15:37  *** Yexo [~Yexo@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Server closed connection]
23:15:44  <frosch123> maybe coupling it with realtime
23:15:48  <planetmaker> hm.
23:15:52  <frosch123> like: every 5 minutes, unless nothing was done
23:15:55  <planetmaker> why did yexo go?
23:16:03  *** Yexo [~Yexo@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
23:16:11  <andythenorth> see what you did? o_O
23:16:16  <andythenorth> summoned him
23:16:19  <frosch123> planetmaker: michi perfomed the same thing a while ago
23:16:21  <andythenorth> can you summon dalestan?
23:16:24  <frosch123> maybe something related to the bouncer
23:16:28  <Eddi|zuHause> server hiccup, i presume :)
23:16:31  *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6D020.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:17:02  <frosch123> don't worry, herzogdexter will return
23:17:20  <planetmaker> :-)
23:17:56  <frosch123> i was already used to herzogdexter disconnecting when getting used to reading logs in 2007
23:18:05  <planetmaker> :D
23:18:23  <frosch123> i think he never said anything in those 6 years
23:19:01  <LordAro> @seen herzogdexter
23:19:01  <DorpsGek> LordAro: herzogdexter was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 6 weeks, 5 days, 23 hours, 28 minutes, and 59 seconds ago: <HerzogDeXtEr> Happy New Year
23:19:08  <andythenorth> bot?
23:19:10  <LordAro> ha :P
23:19:36  <frosch123> but seeing him disconnect makes me feel at home, or something like that :)
23:19:40  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: 10 bucks that this was an amsg :p
23:20:03  <planetmaker> amsg?
23:20:06  <LordAro> almost certainly, who else capitalises like that? :P
23:20:12  *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-68-175-24-89.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Snail]
23:20:12  <LordAro> automated, i presume
23:20:43  <andythenorth> if I say 'express freight' in notes for a ship, and cargo doesn't use express class
23:20:43  <Eddi|zuHause> no, something that gets posted to all channels.
23:20:48  <andythenorth> are people going to whine?
23:21:03  <andythenorth> actually nvm
23:21:05  <frosch123> express freight for ships :p
23:21:07  <planetmaker> yes. They always whine
23:21:16  <andythenorth> this is true
23:21:19  <andythenorth> we all do it :P
23:21:26  <andythenorth> some whine and make grfs
23:21:31  <andythenorth> some whine and then whine more
23:21:54  <planetmaker> yup. like that :-)
23:21:55  <frosch123> can i get an express packet delivery with hovercraft?
23:22:03  <frosch123> does dhl offer something like that?
23:22:03  <andythenorth> yes
23:22:10  <andythenorth> Goods
23:22:12  <andythenorth> Food
23:22:16  <andythenorth> Petrol
23:22:22  <andythenorth> you can order petrol by mail, right?
23:22:25  <planetmaker> maybe here: http://www.hurtigruten.no/Norge/
23:22:47  <andythenorth> http://www.petroldirect.com
23:22:49  <frosch123> they have hovercraft?
23:23:03  <planetmaker> hm... catemeran at least
23:23:09  <frosch123> can hovercraft climb norwegian mountains?
23:23:16  <planetmaker> :D
23:23:22  <planetmaker> I doubt that
23:23:34  <frosch123> do hovercraft work in low pressure environments?
23:23:39  <frosch123> like mount everest?
23:23:48  <andythenorth> http://www.petroldirect.com/order.htm
23:23:52  *** wojteks86 [5db0e60d@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
23:23:54  <frosch123> or do they not have enough propulsion?
23:23:56  <wojteks86> hi guys
23:24:07  <andythenorth> http://www.petroldirect.com/about-us.htm
23:24:13  <wojteks86> can someone please tell me what exactly is "Sling" in AV8 NewGRF?
23:24:24  <planetmaker> not sure, frosch123 :-)
23:25:16  <frosch123> hmm, i did not know that diesel was colour coded
23:25:21  <Eddi|zuHause> wojteks86: context?
23:25:34  <wojteks86> no idea, I dont use that set
23:25:43  <planetmaker> colour and smell-coded
23:25:46  <andythenorth> wojteks86: http://i.ytimg.com/vi/598Tmq8SeA0/0.jpg
23:25:50  <wojteks86> it just says Sling with no other words
23:26:00  <Eddi|zuHause> "sling" is usually something that you throw stones with
23:26:01  <andythenorth> see the wires to the cat underneath?
23:26:06  <andythenorth> wires / ropes / lines
23:26:10  <wojteks86> yep
23:26:23  <andythenorth> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_OfiWlLNBji4/S1BNBmoKHYI/AAAAAAAAD-4/LUQ_ti5xYPo/s400/Chopper1.jpg
23:26:28  <andythenorth> it's that
23:26:47  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: red diesel is for heating and green diesel is for fuel
23:26:54  <wojteks86> thank you, but it may actually have something to do with aircraft colouring?
23:26:56  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: has to do with taxes
23:27:12  <wojteks86> (Company Coloured, Sling)
23:27:35  <andythenorth> it's a refit
23:27:36  <Eddi|zuHause> wojteks86: that is a "cargo subtype" for refitting
23:27:42  <wojteks86> others are for example (Company Coloured, No tip tanks
23:27:43  <wojteks86> )
23:27:52  <wojteks86> hmm ok :D
23:28:03  <wojteks86> glad someone used that set
23:28:11  <wojteks86> planes are not my cop of tea
23:28:12  <andythenorth> I asked p*kka to include that feature :)
23:28:13  <Eddi|zuHause> wojteks86: those have nothing to do with each other
23:28:15  <wojteks86> cup*
23:28:32  <wojteks86> Eddi, got it now ;)
23:28:36  <wojteks86> thanks!
23:29:03  <wojteks86> sorry, but this will be my 3rd translation today and I need a break :D
23:29:54  <andythenorth> bed time
23:29:55  <andythenorth> bye
23:29:57  *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
23:30:01  <wojteks86> bye
23:31:17  *** chester_ [~chester@95-26-101-46.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:37:38  <frosch123> night
23:37:42  *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f4277.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:37:49  <wojteks86> nite
23:37:53  *** wojteks86 [5db0e60d@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
23:43:14  <Eddi|zuHause> bite
23:43:41  <Eddi|zuHause> (i don't think i did this the right way)
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