Log for #openttd on 16th April 2013:
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01:11:47  <jnicholl> hello! I was starting some work to port OpenTTD and had a few questions - anyone feel like indulging me?
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09:00:23  <abchirk> hi, how to I upgrade form normal railroad to monorail?
09:00:38  <abchirk> I can replace all railroads with the one tool, but trains??
09:01:18  <Sacro> abchirk: rebuild
09:01:22  <Sacro> send to depot
09:01:24  <Sacro> replace
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09:01:43  <abchirk> Ya I send to depot my train? But when I click replace, nothing happens
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09:03:42  <MNIM> abchirk: send all trains to depot, build a new depot, copy over your orders to new (monorail) trains in the new depot, replace all other rail
09:03:45  <ZxBiohazardZx> ofc not, the depot is of either rail or monorail depot
09:03:54  <ZxBiohazardZx> and the train cannot run/be build in the wrong depot
09:04:09  <abchirk> yeah thats why I can't replace old depot because train inway :)
09:04:13  <ZxBiohazardZx> a universal rail or mixed-type rail could solve it, some sets offer that
09:04:41  <MNIM> hmmmmh.
09:04:43  <abchirk> how do I copy order MNIM ?
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09:05:14  <abchirk> and then my new train isn't really copied.
09:05:18  <MNIM> when you have your new train order window open, Ctrl+Click the old trains
09:06:08  <MNIM> You can do this with whole groups of trains so all of them are tied together
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09:06:31  <MNIM> which is nice, because then you can change one thing in one train and it'll be changed in the whole group of trains
09:07:14  <abchirk> but I can't copy length of train?
09:08:43  <MNIM> You can clone trains, but then you'll just have an identical train of the same type.
09:08:55  <MNIM> and you want to change from ordinary railroad to monorail.
09:09:21  <abchirk> yes. so I need to add manually by wagons?
09:09:29  <abchirk> *my new wagons
09:09:52  <MNIM> the only way you can change from ordinary rail to monorail is by building new trains.
09:10:46  <abchirk> when I do ctrl+click on my old train it says unable change direction of train?? I just wanted to copy orders
09:11:58  <ZxBiohazardZx> MNIM not true, if you have a set like NUTS that have a shared depot/mix-type rail then you can convert them
09:12:12  <ZxBiohazardZx> change direction?
09:12:26  <ZxBiohazardZx> copy or clone train is the way you want
09:12:33  <ZxBiohazardZx> either control-click or click clone
09:12:41  <abchirk> Now there is magdev available. So I try to switch from normal railroad to magdev
09:13:07  <abchirk> ahhhh, I need to select GoTo first :))
09:13:47  <MNIM> ZxBiohazardZx: D'oh, I thought I did insert 'in a standard game' in there
09:20:46  <ZxBiohazardZx> XD
09:21:42  <MNIM> I really did
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12:55:50  <jnicholl> hello, I had some questions about developing an OpenTTD port for a new platform and have a few questions about what would be needed.
12:56:36  <V453000> that is good.
12:57:42  <peter1139> did you lose them?
12:57:51  <jnicholl> I'd like to develop a port for BlackBerry 10. I was actually the person who put together a version for PlayBook (just released source code that could be built from on GitHub, didn't publish binaries anywhere)
12:59:21  <jnicholl> I currently have a port working in much the same way as pelya's android port.
12:59:44  <jnicholl> what's the status of that here? Is it still considered unofficial, or is it going to become part of trunk?
13:02:06  <jnicholl> I was also reading planetmaker's comments about the android port at and would like to avoid some of the same mistakes.
13:03:18  <michi_cc> jnicholl: Seeing that palya has made exactly zero effort to get things into trunk (i.e. haven't heard anything from him/her except that forum thread) it's quite unlikely to come anywhere near to trunk.
13:04:31  <jnicholl> fair enough. is there current work going on to make trunk work better on high-ppi, small screen, touch devices?
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13:05:07  <jnicholl> my current version is rather similar - static newgrf biggui, doubled font sizes with hard-coded font selected...
13:05:33  <michi_cc> In fact for almost all of those random ports (NDS, PSP, whatever) nobody could ever be bothered enough to produce proper patches from them (simply commenting things out or arbitrarily changing code other ports rely on isn't really the way to go).
13:05:34  <jnicholl> I also changed several GUI elements to split the contents up into tabs with next/previous buttons.
13:06:07  <michi_cc> Zoomable GUI: (needs some more love though).
13:07:19  <jnicholl> were there any thoughts about touch-scrolling in widgets with scrollbars?
13:07:56  <jnicholl> I hacked together a prototype of it, but it has problems with depot windows since you also have to be able to drag trains around.
13:07:57  <Eddi|zuHause> shouldn't that an OS function simulating scroll wheel?
13:08:09  <Eddi|zuHause> +be
13:08:34  <jnicholl> I'm not sure how it can be - the OS can't tell what widget you clicked on?
13:09:16  <jnicholl> so how does it tell if a drag-like touch event should turn into scroll wheel?
13:09:30  <jnicholl> or do you mean use a different touch event - two-finger pan or something?
13:10:20  <jnicholl> michi_cc: thanks for the link, I guess I didn't look around enough, I saw references to zoomable GUI but didn't find the source.
13:11:14  <michi_cc> A lot of the more interesting stuff lives on IRC and never sees the forums ;)
13:11:48  <jnicholl> fair enough. :) that's why we have irc logs, right?
13:11:48  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc just likes to hide all his stuff until it is "finished" :p
13:13:27  <Eddi|zuHause> jnicholl: so, i don't have a clue about all your tablet jargon, but am i understanding this correctly that the options here are "using two different gestures simulating drag&drop and scroll wheel" or "implement special mouse-input-behaviours for the same gesture depending on context"?
13:13:42  <jnicholl> yes, pretty much.
13:14:14  <Eddi|zuHause> the second one you likely handle similar to how it currently checks whether Ctrl was pressed during the click
13:15:12  <Eddi|zuHause> might need widget-inheritance-magic for "drag&drop-gesture-widget" and "scroll-gesture-widget"
13:15:14  <michi_cc> jnicholl: IMHO the way to implement touch gestures in general is to hook it into already existing window event handling. It will route input events to whatever widget is on that part of the screen. Some things are already present (e.g. a general zoom event is already existing, so it it just a matter of translating the OS event) while others would need extending the widget classes.
13:16:55  <jnicholl> my current behavior was to change DispatchLeftClickEvent so that if it goes to a widget that has a scrollbar, then it doesn't send the event to the widget, but instead sets a touch_scroll flag and treats it a bit like the scrollbar was being used.
13:17:57  <michi_cc> Example for zoom gesture: (part of a big patch queue with lots of random crappy stuff, but this diff should be quite finished).
13:19:36  <Eddi|zuHause> somehow "NSU Integer" doesn't sound good :p
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13:20:13  <jnicholl> I see. If we do it that way, then I'll need a more custom SDL version that can actually send touch gesture events, but that's okay... then we can send the two-finger pan gestures for scrolling as well, I guess?
13:20:45  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Where's the CETS forum thread BTW :p
13:21:12  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: when 0.1 is released :)
13:21:18  <Belugas> hello
13:22:00  <jnicholl> with the zoomable GUI, how does it handle the main toolbar?
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13:24:33  <michi_cc> It makes it bigger as well. There's already code to resize it by overlapping buttons slightly at first and then separate the buttons into two sets with a switch button.
13:26:05  <jnicholl> yes - I modified it to separate it further into three sets (I need an 11-button arrangement)
13:26:44  <michi_cc> The theory is that each and every GUI element (except fonts, which I plan a GUI for as well in the indeterminate future) will be scaled the same. The patch queue still has some glitches as some things are drawn as characters instead of sprites for some random reason.
13:27:42  <jnicholl> what happens for GUI elements that have too much stuff in them? :)
13:28:09  <jnicholl> so either they're too small if you can see the whole window, or they overflow the screen if you put them at a reasonable zoom level?
13:28:57  <michi_cc> They need to get fixed if they aren't resizable already.
13:30:00  <jnicholl> well, for example save/load GUI? Currently it basically has two sections, the file picker and the details area. I can only really fit one section on the screen and have the contents be reasonably selectable.
13:30:40  <michi_cc> The town info window is probably the likeliest candidate for problems as GameScripts can dump lots of text in there.
13:31:02  <michi_cc> No idea :)
13:31:03  <Eddi|zuHause> the newgrf window is even worse
13:31:10  <jnicholl> yes, yes it is. :P
13:31:28  <michi_cc> The NewGRF window has two layouts depending on the size, so it might be possible to build upon that.
13:32:07  <jnicholl> yeah, I was doing that sort of thing - creating multiple layouts for lots of windows. I went the tab-creation route, so Next/Previous buttons at the top of the window to switch sections.
13:32:37  <michi_cc> But in the end I don't think OTTD is really suitable for smartphone-sized displays, no matter what you do. Tablets, sure, but tiny smartphone displays...
13:33:25  <jnicholl> basically there are too many windows which actually have important information - which you can't see at the same time on a tiny screen?
13:39:47  <michi_cc> No, that's not what I mean. For me personally one of the nice things about OTTD is that you can just pause for a moment and watch trains/vehicles (and everything else on the map) go by. On very small screens (no matter which DPI) there simply isn't space for anything to watch.
13:40:23  <Pinkbeast> But I think jnicholl is also right. I often (for example) have stations listed by waiting cargo value and that alone would eat half a smartphone display
13:42:34  <jnicholl> michi_cc: actually, in playing around with my version, I felt like watching games was something that I could do on the phone. It was fun to just be a spectator on a network game, but it started to get hard when I wanted to actually do stuff. The resolution is actually reasonable (1280x768)
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13:42:58  <jnicholl> It's just that in order to interact with it, the buttons have to be finger-sized... 80x80 or so.
13:43:21  <Pinkbeast> Also presumably text would need to use more pixels not to be in teeny-tiny.
13:43:34  <jnicholl> yes
13:44:33  <jnicholl> but for watching parts of the map, there's less actual text (town names, signs, station names) and there's still room to watch the simulation.
13:45:32  <jnicholl> so what about spectator-only smartphone OpenTTD? You can join games and watch them, but you can't actually change anything?
13:49:11  <jnicholl> anyway, people at work were looking at my modified version and were asking me whether I was going to publish it.
13:49:13  <jnicholl>  I'm guessing that's a bad idea, given the status of the various unofficial ports out there?
13:49:46  <jnicholl> naturally for licensing reasons, source will be on github and available as tarball, and app will be free.
13:50:16  <jnicholl> but probably better to contribute to trunk and eventually publish rather than the reverse?
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13:53:58  <jnicholl> anyway, thanks for the help. :)
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15:56:25  <Terkhen> hello
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16:04:17  <luaduck> woo woo
16:04:25  <luaduck> wait wrong channel
16:04:26  <luaduck> fsafsaafs
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16:08:41  <Eddi|zuHause>  ...
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17:14:02  <LordAro> evening all
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17:15:57  <frosch123> woo woo
17:16:04  <frosch123> yeah, right channel!
17:16:20  <LordAro> ?
17:16:26  <LordAro> hi frosch :)
17:16:36  <frosch123> moin :)
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17:26:46  <frosch123> V453000: fearless animals do not slow in curves?
17:27:02  <V453000> welll, they shouldnt
17:27:17  <V453000> it is possible to slow them down to 214kmh from 222 in some multicurves
17:27:46  <frosch123> nah, i mean: i am sure there is a definite reason why animal expresses do not slow in curves :)
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17:32:05  <V453000> well, yeah, because they are slower than slugs :D
17:32:08  <V453000> thats it
17:32:25  <frosch123> i thought because they are fearless
17:32:32  <frosch123> anyway, they are stupid
17:32:42  <frosch123> i have to buy 20 trains and sell 18 to get two unicorns
17:32:57  <V453000> lol
17:33:04  <frosch123> :)
17:33:12  <V453000> there are 9 variants with equal probability afaik
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17:42:02  <Alberth> o/
17:45:15  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25189 trunk/src/lang/unfinished/gaelic.txt (2013-04-16 17:45:08 UTC)
17:45:16  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:17  <DorpsGek> gaelic - 113 changes by GunChleoc
17:49:58  <LordAro> hai Alberth
17:50:18  <Alberth> hi hi
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19:00:12  <Alberth> o/ andy
19:00:35  * Alberth likes the FIRS coal mine in progress
19:00:47  <andythenorth> \o
19:01:23  <andythenorth> trying to figure out if I want to animate a train into it
19:01:27  <andythenorth> a tiny mine train
19:01:36  <Alberth> like ECS? :)
19:01:59  <andythenorth> yup
19:02:04  <andythenorth> but I think it's tmwftlb
19:02:10  <Alberth> but your other industries don't move either
19:02:18  <andythenorth> one or two move a bit
19:02:24  <andythenorth> I should animate the cows :P
19:02:39  <Alberth> walking circles :)
19:02:57  <Alberth> or animated black spots on them :)
19:03:06  <andythenorth> :P
19:18:58  <frosch123> v would make the cows work at the mine
19:23:15  <andythenorth> v would mine cows
19:23:19  <andythenorth> with sheep
19:23:32  <Alberth> only if they're unicows
19:24:03  <frosch123> ow, you mean the sheep would use the unicorns to dig with their horns for cow?
19:24:50  <Alberth> cows cannot have one horn?
19:25:37  <frosch123> never saw the double-jackhammer
19:25:55  <frosch123> *a
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19:40:54  <andythenorth> hmm
19:40:58  <andythenorth> my shell has crashed
19:41:00  <andythenorth> how dull
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19:54:31  <V453000> :DDDDD
19:54:32  <V453000> :DDDDD
19:54:39  <V453000> I like both suggestions
19:55:19  <frosch123> and i finally know what to do with my unicorns. i can sell them as jackhammer
19:57:25  <frosch123> V453000: you need to draw a station set, which offers piles of unicorns or so :)
19:57:59  <frosch123> or maybe as new object? station piles are always so useless
20:18:58  <frosch123> night
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20:25:47  <Terkhen> good night
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21:11:14  <andythenorth> bye
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