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09:47:47 <andythenorth_> I have some 09:47:49 <andythenorth_> in cupboards 09:47:51 <andythenorth_> unused 09:48:05 <andythenorth_> never as good as they should be 09:48:14 <andythenorth_> just buy a tablet and be done with it 09:48:36 <Eddi|zuHause> trackball? how very 90's :) 09:49:27 <peter1139> hmm, tablet 09:56:25 *** andythenorth_ [~andytheno@194.168.185.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:58:11 <peter1139> hmm, logitech T650 10:13:53 <Wolf01> why does LEGO puts a spare 1x1 red flat tile but not for 1x1 trans-white plate? I think a little transparent piece is easier to get lost 10:14:07 <peter1139> to annoy you 10:15:38 <Wolf01> no, the annoying part is to have slightly different coloured yellow pieces, or bluish/reddish white pieces 10:16:04 <peter1139> hmm 10:16:21 <peter1139> always been consistent for me 10:16:27 <peter1139> but then i was buying lego 25 years ago 10:16:51 <Wolf01> I built a wall with white pieces and "see, it looks like the USA flag" 10:16:53 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, there is the middle stop hack 10:17:04 <peter1139> the what? 10:17:44 <Eddi|zuHause> set stop in middle as default when loading old savegames 10:17:56 <peter1139> which causes what? 10:18:37 *** andythenorth_ [~andytheno@194.168.185.226] has joined #openttd 10:19:41 <Eddi|zuHause> saves me clicking on 150 trains to set it myself for each order 10:20:55 <Eddi|zuHause> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2250/ 10:21:16 <Wolf01> nice, I have more spare parts than the smallest set I have 10:21:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a big basket of legos somewhere 10:22:03 <Eddi|zuHause> not touched for at least 10 years 10:27:40 <frosch123> is there a eastern equivalent to lego? 10:31:33 <Wolf01> http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=81168 this, if I understood the question correctly 10:34:02 <frosch123> nah, not that far east :p 10:34:56 <Eddi|zuHause> we had two, actually 10:35:17 <Wolf01> minitalia, but it didn't had so much success 10:36:46 <Wolf01> and since most patents from lego are now invalid/expired, there are clones from all over the world, so it's difficult to tell the origin from just the name 10:38:01 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: http://www.ddrtete.de/popup_image.php/pID/2489/imgID/3 10:39:04 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: and http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebe 10:41:13 <frosch123> hmm, i wonder whether i had some pebe stuff 10:41:42 <frosch123> i got some weird stuff from friends of my older sibliings 10:46:22 *** Mucht [~Martin@000128e2.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:48:55 *** Elukka [Elukka@a91-152-213-89.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 10:56:19 *** Fuco [dota.keys@server.dasnet.cz] has joined #openttd 11:05:10 <planetmaker> pebe = DDR lego? 11:05:29 <frosch123> yeah, that was the topic 11:12:00 <Eddi|zuHause> so... where was that timetable patch i wanted to try? 11:19:41 <peter1139> what about 32bpp colours? 11:20:47 <Eddi|zuHause> why would i need those? 11:25:48 <peter1139> for eyebleed 11:26:14 <Eddi|zuHause> DBSet doesn't have company colours anyway 11:28:59 <peter1139> that is true 11:34:03 *** HellTiger [~HellTiger@43-54.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #openttd 11:41:23 <frosch123> i thought it had the colours of the db company 11:42:31 <V453000> lol 11:49:57 *** Alice3 [~Alice@cpc18-grim14-2-0-cust478.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 11:53:30 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6C530.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 12:00:07 *** Mucht [~Martin@000128e2.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 12:08:14 *** dlubi [~dlubi@catv-80-98-252-62.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #openttd 12:22:59 *** Alice3 [~Alice@cpc18-grim14-2-0-cust478.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 12:24:45 *** TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:31:01 *** TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 12:33:50 *** andythenorth_ [~andytheno@194.168.185.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:56:26 *** dlubi [~dlubi@catv-80-98-252-62.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:50 *** TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:13:26 *** ntoskrnl [~not@a91-153-231-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 13:13:56 *** TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 13:19:57 *** dough [dekosser@abnormal.openface.ca] has quit [Quit: changing servers] 13:37:58 *** andythenorth_ [~andytheno@194.168.185.226] has joined #openttd 13:38:26 *** Ristovski [~rafael@78.157.7.34] has joined #openttd 13:52:30 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 13:52:33 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 13:58:34 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-172-42.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:03:45 *** andythenorth_ [~andytheno@194.168.185.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:29:54 *** roadt [~roadt@223.240.108.159] has joined #openttd 14:36:22 *** parkette [~pjm@apn-77-114-71-166.dynamic.gprs.plus.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:09:39 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host86-165-37-110.range86-165.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 15:10:18 <LordAro> afternoonings 15:22:27 *** Fuco [dota.keys@server.dasnet.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:30:41 *** glx [glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 15:30:45 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 15:42:15 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@wirenat2.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:48:44 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has joined #openttd 15:56:05 *** parkette [~pjm@apn-77-114-71-166.dynamic.gprs.plus.pl] has joined #openttd 15:59:35 *** FLHerne [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 15:59:49 *** Alice3 [~Alice@cpc18-grim14-2-0-cust478.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 16:20:44 *** andythenorth [~andytheno@194.168.185.226] has joined #openttd 16:23:37 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d108-180-70-162.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 16:37:05 *** parkette [~pjm@apn-77-114-71-166.dynamic.gprs.plus.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:38:17 *** andythenorth_ [~andytheno@194.168.185.226] has joined #openttd 16:38:44 *** andythenorth_ [~andytheno@194.168.185.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43:08 *** andythen_ [~andytheno@213.205.228.154] has joined #openttd 16:43:33 *** TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:49:12 *** andythenorth [~andytheno@194.168.185.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:49:19 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 16:49:33 *** andythen_ [~andytheno@213.205.228.154] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:49:41 *** TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 16:58:57 *** Psyk [~Psyk@ip-78-102-228-126.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 17:03:13 *** FLHerne [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:03:51 *** roadt [~roadt@223.240.108.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:18:45 *** Mortomes [~Moretomes@92-108-125-137.dynamic.upc.nl] has joined #openttd 17:19:18 *** Mortomes is now known as Guest4120 17:21:23 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i think this part is completely wrong... http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2252/ 17:21:43 <Guest4120> With NoAI, is there any way to make an AI say something in chat or react to chat messages? 17:22:17 <Eddi|zuHause> at least, instead of TIP_SAVEGAME_VERSION it should put in 67 17:22:36 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, no, i missed a line 17:22:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Kommando zurÃŒck! :p 17:23:05 <Guest4120> (Or is there a more appropriate channel for NoAI related discussion?) 17:23:11 <Eddi|zuHause> it's still weird, but not "wrong" 17:23:30 *** Guest4120 is now known as Mortomes 17:23:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Guest4120: no, AI cannot listen to chat 17:24:10 <Mortomes> Can't talk in chat either? 17:24:21 <Eddi|zuHause> not that i know of, but not sure 17:24:57 <Eddi|zuHause> might want to ask stuff in the forum, though, to reach a wider target audience of AI coders 17:26:06 <Mortomes> No way to do something similar with gamescript either? 17:27:03 <Mortomes> Ok, I'll try that, thanks. 17:27:29 *** oskari892 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 17:28:20 <Eddi|zuHause> gamescripts can communicate via the admin port 17:32:18 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:34:04 *** Markk [~mark@82.211.15.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:35:39 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 17:37:20 *** Markk [~mark@rikskriminalpolisen.com] has joined #openttd 17:37:52 *** Mucht [~Martin@000128e2.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:38:03 <frosch123> Mortomes: http://wiki.openttd.org/Script_communication_protocol 17:38:17 <frosch123> ais and gs can communicate with each other via signs 17:42:30 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 17:42:33 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 17:42:52 <Mortomes> heh, interesting 17:43:01 <Alberth> hihi 17:43:08 *** Mucht [~Martin@000128e2.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 17:43:44 <Mortomes> On a related note, any way to enable chat functionality in single player? 17:44:16 <frosch123> nope 17:44:29 <frosch123> there are other interfaces to communicate with gs 17:44:37 <frosch123> goals, question windows, news 17:44:41 <frosch123> a story book is planned 17:45:12 <Mortomes> Yeah, this is not so much about communicating with gs as with the player 17:45:24 <Mortomes> Through something less obscure than logging :P 17:45:27 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25216 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2013-05-02 17:45:18 UTC) 17:45:28 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:29 <DorpsGek> galician - 90 changes by Michi 17:45:30 <DorpsGek> icelandic - 9 changes by Stimrol 17:45:31 <DorpsGek> gaelic - 24 changes by GunChleoc 17:45:44 <frosch123> http://wiki.openttd.org/Story_book <- that's what is planned 17:47:18 *** Mucht [~Martin@000128e2.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:51:50 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd 18:03:16 *** andythenorth_ [~andytheno@194.168.185.226] has joined #openttd 18:03:31 <Alberth> hi andy 18:07:56 *** Defaultti [defaultti@lakka.kapsi.fi] has quit [Quit: Quitting.] 18:09:27 *** Psyk [~Psyk@ip-78-102-228-126.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:10:06 *** Psyk [~Psyk@ip-78-102-228-126.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 18:24:12 <oskari892> What is that error: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/finnishtrainset/nightlies/ERROR/r72/finnishtrainset-r72-devzone.log 18:25:00 *** Defaultti [defaultti@lakka.kapsi.fi] has joined #openttd 18:26:17 <Eddi|zuHause> oskari892: need to talk to Ammler 18:27:17 *** andythenorth_ [~andytheno@194.168.185.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:27:25 <Eddi|zuHause> oskari892: but that log doesn't show any error, only warnings 18:28:00 <oskari892> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/finnishtrainset/nightlies/ERROR/r72/finnishtrainset-r72-devzone.err.log 18:28:31 <oskari892> "Preferred package location '/home/openttd/public_html/nml/nightlies/r2072/rpms' is not a directory 18:28:31 <oskari892> cp: cannot stat '/home/ottdc/chroots/devzone-openSUSE_12.3-i586-nightlies/home/abuild/rpmbuild/BUILD/finnishtrainset/*.zip': No such file or directory" 18:28:34 <oskari892> Etc... 18:28:57 <Eddi|zuHause> those seem to be from "make clean" and shouldn't be critical, if you're using the makefile correctly 18:29:35 <oskari892> ISR seems also be affected 18:29:41 <oskari892> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/isr/nightlies/ERROR/ 18:30:12 <oskari892> and xussrsete too 18:30:18 <oskari892> *xussrset 18:36:49 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, what am i missing? "src/duration_gui.cpp:232:9: error: âHEBR_EDITINGâ was not declared in this scope" 18:37:33 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not defined in any of the patch files 18:37:51 <Eddi|zuHause> so it must have come from trunk, but it's not in trunk anymore 18:42:09 <Alberth> duration_gui ? 18:42:17 <Alberth> that's a new one to me 18:43:40 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it's from the timetable improvement patch 18:43:55 <Eddi|zuHause> but i mean the HEBR_ stuff 18:44:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it was apparently removed from trunk recently 18:44:29 <Eddi|zuHause> something to do with edit boxes 18:47:04 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: editboxes were completely changed 18:47:23 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i figured. but i can't find the revision 18:47:30 <Eddi|zuHause> or the explanation what changed 18:47:38 <frosch123> it's HKPR_EDITING now 18:47:47 <frosch123> but the other enum values changed their meaning 18:47:58 <Alberth> r24729 ? 18:48:12 <frosch123> i guess you are bet off ripping off all the editbox stuff from that patch, and reimplement it :p 18:48:37 <Eddi|zuHause> still, i need the revision of the change, to see what was done for the other windows 18:49:45 <frosch123> try svn log -r24324:head src/network/network_gui.cpp 18:50:02 <frosch123> 90% of those commits are related to editboxes 18:52:36 <Alberth> r24735 still removes uses of HEBR_EDITING 18:53:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i'll look into it 18:55:38 *** ntoskrnl [~not@a91-153-231-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:56:26 *** ZxBiohazardZx [~IceChat77@5ED05D6D.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 18:57:15 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: r25092 18:57:57 <Alberth> thg grep for the win :) 18:59:01 *** ZxBiohazardZx [~IceChat77@5ED05D6D.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [] 18:59:22 <Eddi|zuHause> in SVN it's easy to search for when a line was added, but not when it was removed 18:59:53 <frosch123> well, most likely you just have to remove the whole function which used HEBR_EDITING 19:01:47 <frosch123> the HKPR_ constants are only used in 4 files in trunk, so it's very unlikely your window would need them :p 19:10:37 <Wolf01> random question time: anybody here used to multiple-and-hierarchical data structures? Maybe there is something like it in the OTTD code too :P 19:11:25 <frosch123> the name does not trigger anything for me 19:12:13 <frosch123> is the "and" a logical "and" ? 19:12:32 <frosch123> and in multiple hierarchies, combines with "and" ? 19:12:51 <Wolf01> I need both, so, yes 19:13:23 <frosch123> both? 19:13:39 <frosch123> so "multiple" and "hierarchical" are independent things? 19:13:48 <Wolf01> yes 19:13:49 <frosch123> what's a "multiple datastructure" then? :p 19:14:09 <Rubidium> hierarchical smells like trees 19:14:42 <frosch123> yeah, "hierarchical" is easy. but i have no idea what the "multiple" should mean 19:14:55 *** andythenorth [~andytheno@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:15:30 <Wolf01> multiple is like "a taxonomy with many terms", combine it with hierarchical and you have "a taxonomy with many terms with childs which can belong to more than one term" 19:15:31 <andythenorth> O/ 19:15:36 <Wolf01> hello andythenorth 19:15:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: maybe you should rather explain what you try to do, instead of throwing around random buzzwords 19:16:02 <Wolf01> s/childs/children <- italianism 19:16:04 <frosch123> so, you have "multiple hierarchies" 19:16:23 * andythenorth -> logs 19:16:44 <frosch123> are the hierarchies independent/disjunct? 19:17:13 <Wolf01> I'm trying to develop an application which makes use of Euler diagrams to handle a clients wallet 19:17:36 <frosch123> i.e. can you separate parents/children into the hierarchies? or is there no rule whether a child is a child via one or the other hierarchy? 19:18:23 <andythenorth> Wolf it sounds like each child has forward reference to each of its parents? 19:18:33 <frosch123> that sounds more like you just want a directed non-cyclical graph 19:18:53 <Wolf01> I already lost you :D 19:19:10 <andythenorth> Real world case I have: sales that have both company and customer 19:19:32 <frosch123> Wolf01: do you know distributed version control systems? hg? git? 19:19:45 <frosch123> their history is a dac (directed acyclical graph" 19:20:02 <Wolf01> ok 19:20:07 <Rubidium> oh... git for ages 4 and up? 19:20:08 <frosch123> every item can have multiple parents and children 19:20:27 <frosch123> but no child can be the grandparent of its own parent 19:20:32 <andythenorth> How do you quickly walk the tree? 19:20:33 <Wolf01> yes 19:20:33 <frosch123> Rubidium: exactly :p 19:20:54 <andythenorth> In the web app case I just have to walk lots of nodes looking at properties 19:20:56 <Eddi|zuHause> just use a database :) 19:21:59 <frosch123> http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/22824/A-Model-to-Represent-Directed-Acyclic-Graphs-DAG-o 19:22:07 <andythenorth> Wolf what are the real world entities you are modelling? 19:22:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i still have no clue what you're actually trying to do 19:22:55 <frosch123> Wolf01: you can also just google for "directed acyclic graph <insert-your-programming-language-here>" :) 19:23:25 <andythenorth> Might be overkill though 19:23:44 <Wolf01> I have companies with salesmans, each salesman have its own clients, clients could belong to more salesmen (because interested on different products) 19:24:14 <andythenorth> Ok do that's similar to the real world sales tracking app I have 19:24:15 <Wolf01> but seem you already put me in the right way with the acyclic graphs 19:24:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd still just use a database 19:24:45 <Wolf01> I already use a database 19:25:02 <Eddi|zuHause> just model a many-to-many relation 19:25:12 <andythenorth> If there's only one layer of hierarchy, you don't need graph algos 19:25:47 <Wolf01> ok, I already tried with nested set model, but is a pain in the ... when you need to find a path from a client to a "product" 19:26:24 <andythenorth> You have to look in a lot of rows 19:26:25 <Wolf01> and I don't say when I remove a salesman what should happen 19:26:54 <Eddi|zuHause> removing a salesman is handled by foreign key relationship 19:27:15 <Eddi|zuHause> whatever your RDBS does in that case 19:27:30 *** andythenorth_ [~andytheno@2002:4d66:7022:0:64e0:71af:b493:4a12] has joined #openttd 19:27:34 *** andythenorth [~andytheno@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:27:47 <andythenorth_> tablet typing got boring 19:27:57 <Wolf01> :) 19:28:03 <andythenorth_> it's just sql stuff no? 19:28:12 * andythenorth_ can't do it, but eh :) 19:28:12 <Wolf01> yeah 19:28:25 <Eddi|zuHause> say you have a table for salesmen, clients and products. each salesman handles a set of clients, each salesman is responsible for a set of products 19:28:55 <Eddi|zuHause> so you have a table with salesman-id,client-id and one with salesman-id,product-id 19:29:04 <andythenorth_> +1 19:29:16 <Eddi|zuHause> so when a client searches a product, you make a join on salesman-id 19:29:24 <Eddi|zuHause> etc. 19:30:01 <andythenorth_> if it gets slow you (a) consider caching stuff by keeping references in multiple places (but it sucks, and you have to deal with invalidation and it's a pita) 19:30:03 *** Mortomes [~Moretomes@000125a1.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:30:04 <frosch123> well, if there are only salesmen and clients, and no salesman is a client himself... then there is no point in graphs :) 19:30:08 <andythenorth_> or (b) buy a bigger server 19:30:21 <andythenorth_> or (c) write better sql 19:30:50 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, you don't need graphs, you just need a proper database model 19:31:08 <Eddi|zuHause> which brings us back to the question what you're actually trying to do 19:31:22 <andythenorth_> I had this kind of stuff in the old CMS for FIRS :) 19:31:22 <Wolf01> ok, the problem is, product, salesman and client are the same thing, just hierarchical, no different tables, they just are acyclic as frosch123 said :D 19:31:31 <andythenorth_> biab 19:32:18 <Eddi|zuHause> so client-id and salesman-id are foreign keys to the same table? 19:32:26 <Wolf01> yeah 19:32:48 <Eddi|zuHause> so you need to resolve A->B B->C C->D into A->D? 19:32:50 <Wolf01> because I have more hierarchies of salesmen 19:33:00 <Wolf01> that's the point 19:33:20 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that's pushing the limits of RDBMS 19:33:33 <Eddi|zuHause> because you can't do that in one query 19:34:03 <Wolf01> in fact I was looking for algorithms to build many queries 19:34:08 <Eddi|zuHause> so you want to resolve transitive edges 19:35:28 <Wolf01> uhm, googled that, gives me headaches 19:35:39 <Eddi|zuHause> basically, you need a pathfinder :) 19:35:58 <Eddi|zuHause> which is not that hard if you know it's acyclic 19:36:29 <Wolf01> it's acyclic for sure, if it's not I'll kill who made it so 19:36:57 <Eddi|zuHause> to find a way from D to A you query all X->D edges, put all X in a set, and then query all Y->X edges for every member of X 19:37:09 <Eddi|zuHause> you do this until X doesn't change anymore, or X contains A 19:37:27 <Wolf01> ok 19:37:37 <Eddi|zuHause> but this must be done in a procedural language, it can't be expressed in SQL 19:38:01 <andythenorth_> Wolf01: this is a CRM app? 19:38:06 <Wolf01> yes 19:38:16 <Eddi|zuHause> (because SQL isn't a turing complete language) 19:38:39 <andythenorth_> Wolf01: they can't just get Nutshell or Zoho or something off the shelf? o_O :) 19:38:59 *** andythenorth_ [~andytheno@2002:4d66:7022:0:64e0:71af:b493:4a12] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:39:18 <Wolf01> it's a new feature we must develop for our produce 19:39:21 <Wolf01> *product 19:39:30 *** andythenorth_ [~andytheno@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:39:38 <Wolf01> it's a new feature we must develop for our product 19:41:03 <Wolf01> which may be used for a crm, but also to split up a site in different compartments with their own hierarchy (admin-mod-user) 19:41:11 <andythenorth_> so what happens if a salesmen leaves? 19:41:21 <andythenorth_> is the client interested in the product, or the salesperson? 19:41:26 <Wolf01> clients must be assigned to his direct parent 19:42:14 <Wolf01> luckily we don't have to care about the second case :P 19:42:44 *** Mortomes [~Moretomes@dhcp-089-099-142-125.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 19:43:03 <andythenorth_> what is the most important entity in the system / business? Client, product, or salesperson? 19:43:18 *** Mortomes is now known as Guest4135 19:43:25 <andythenorth_> for example, the system I build is a sales (job) tracker, so job is the most important entity 19:44:09 <Wolf01> I think it's the product 19:44:33 <andythenorth_> I would have guessed that 19:44:46 <andythenorth_> so I'm crap at sql, I usually do object stuff in python 19:45:02 <andythenorth_> but you probably have product rows, with keys to the customer and salesperson tables 19:45:42 <andythenorth_> but you also need to relate customer and salesperson in more detail 19:46:09 <andythenorth_> so you might need to pair the keys somehow, or have customer keys in the salesperson table 19:46:24 <Wolf01> this thing really resembles TT, I have products to deliver to a client passing through waypoints, waypoints decide wether to let pass the products in a certain time 19:46:28 <andythenorth_> then it's all just fine, you just have to do some joins efficiently without killing your app 19:46:43 <Wolf01> and I need to find a route which might suddenly change 19:47:01 <andythenorth_> so there's workflow or such? Or order fulfilment? 19:47:21 <Wolf01> It's very abstract at the moment 19:47:28 <andythenorth_> how might the route change? 19:47:32 <Wolf01> because we need it to adapt to different uses 19:48:16 <andythenorth_> hmm :) 19:48:25 <andythenorth_> have you used the front end of any similar apps? 19:48:32 <Wolf01> no 19:48:43 <andythenorth_> ok 19:49:22 <Wolf01> I say, I have a 4 tracks main-line, suddenly I build a piece of track so trains can switch to a different track to cut some length of their travel 19:49:27 <andythenorth_> trying to figure out if FIRS is similar to your problem, but I think not 19:49:33 <andythenorth_> FIRS has economy, cargo, industry 19:50:13 <andythenorth_> the industry knows which cargos it handles in which economy 19:50:28 <andythenorth_> the cargos know if they're active in each economy 19:50:48 <andythenorth_> if you want to know which cargos an industry *actually* handles in an economy, you have to go look them up 19:51:05 <andythenorth_> probably different though 19:51:34 <andythenorth_> I'm not really following the TTD track metaphor though :) 19:51:36 *** Psyk [~Psyk@ip-78-102-228-126.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:51:56 <andythenorth_> do you mean the app has to include logic for re-routing? Or that the business needs might change and you have to change the app? 19:52:20 <Wolf01> the re-routing thing 19:55:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: my algorithm would handle that case correctly, it takes the shortest path 19:55:41 <Wolf01> example: the "pizza" department has a principal and 4 salesmen, one day one of them would be moved to the "kebab" department, the other 3 will take the clients of the one which left (done manually by the principal, when the salesman left, it's clients were actually transferred to the department, invisible to the salesmen) 19:56:13 <Wolf01> this must be transparent to the clients 19:56:14 <andythenorth_> ok so you have teams too 19:56:39 <andythenorth_> the re-assignment is done by the software? Or manually by the people? 19:56:47 <Wolf01> manually 19:57:30 <Wolf01> the only automathic thing is when a new client appears, which is assignet to the salesman which handle him 19:57:43 <andythenorth_> ok 19:57:46 <andythenorth_> so 19:58:03 <Eddi|zuHause> so after the first assignment, the client is always handled by the same salesman until he leaves? 19:58:08 <Wolf01> yes 19:58:30 <Wolf01> but the same client could be handled by more salesmen by different departments 19:58:35 <Alberth> starting the search from the client may be the fastest (assuming he has a few salesman) 19:58:36 <Eddi|zuHause> so you want to store a salesman->(client, product) as some sort of cache 19:59:05 <Eddi|zuHause> and when the client wants a new product, you resolve a new salesman by the algorithm i gave above 19:59:08 <andythenorth_> (or look them up a lot, if your DB is fast) 19:59:23 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise it reuses the cached salesman 20:00:11 <Eddi|zuHause> since it's only a cache, you can trivially just delete all connections of the salesman if he is moved to another department 20:00:31 <Eddi|zuHause> the client will be treated as a new client when he next asks for the same product 20:00:58 <andythenorth_> I would key from product to client for a couple of reasons 20:01:23 <Eddi|zuHause> you might want to do some load balancing between salesmen 20:02:10 <Wolf01> not my case, at least for the first implementations 20:02:15 <Eddi|zuHause> or you just flatten the hierarchy, so when a new salesman enters the picture, you resolve all products he's responsible fore 20:02:24 <Eddi|zuHause> -e 20:03:13 <MNIM> oh. I was already ducking 20:03:16 <Eddi|zuHause> so when a new client asks for a product, you select all salesmen which handle this product, and order by number of clients they handle (or some other balance value) and pick the lowest 20:04:00 <Wolf01> right 20:04:13 <Eddi|zuHause> this makes adding salesmen the computationally expensive calculation, adding clients is trivial 20:04:40 <Wolf01> yes, I already figured that out 20:05:24 <Eddi|zuHause> algorithm is still the same as above. something around 10-20 LOC 20:07:14 <andythenorth_> how many clients / products / salespeople in the real world? 20:07:32 <Wolf01> I don't know :D 20:07:48 <Eddi|zuHause> always assume 1 million :( 20:07:48 <andythenorth_> tens/ hundreds / thousands / tens of thousands? 20:07:49 <Eddi|zuHause> :) 20:08:01 <Wolf01> maybe 100 products, 10 salesmen and 10k clients 20:08:53 <andythenorth_> yeah, these are not scary numbers 20:09:24 <Wolf01> yes, our customers aren't so big... now 20:09:28 <andythenorth_> you will need very bad sql or a very bad server to make this a problem 20:09:39 <andythenorth_> although countless PHP developers have managed the first :P 20:09:39 <Eddi|zuHause> and assume the company runs some ancient 386 on spare parts 20:10:47 <Wolf01> eheh, knowing the developer (me), I wouldn't bet on "bad SQL", the server is right instead 20:11:27 <andythenorth_> I would key the way eddi said, and then reassign client, product pair to a new salesperson if they need to move 20:12:25 <Wolf01> I only hope the next step wouldn't be a neural network, we already put in too much on our crm/cms 20:12:26 <andythenorth_> the products handled by a salesperson are then the set of all products 20:13:31 <andythenorth_> you can similarly get all products for a client, all salespeople for a product etc 20:14:56 <Wolf01> in any case, what I was looking for seem to be that edge-vertex thing to store the data, which seem to resolve some problems I found trying to add "multiple" to the nested set model hierarchy 20:15:41 <Wolf01> many thanks to all for all the suggestions and the use-cases 20:15:42 <Wolf01> :) 20:16:52 <andythenorth_> just don't over-complicate it :) 20:17:31 *** parkette [~pjm@apn-77-114-71-166.dynamic.gprs.plus.pl] has joined #openttd 20:17:59 <Wolf01> I'll talk with my coworker tomorrow and then we'll see if it fits our needs 20:18:54 <Wolf01> or we can blow up the whole thing and play OTTD instead 20:26:45 <frosch123> night 20:26:48 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fe831.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:51 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@90.193.88.212] has joined #openttd 20:46:37 <andythenorth_> nice picture http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=434505&nseq=5 20:47:23 <Eddi|zuHause> it's photoshopped! i can tell by the pixels! 20:47:37 *** Netsplit reticulum.oftc.net <-> coulomb.oftc.net quits: +michi_cc, tparker, parkette, andythenorth_, dotwaffle, luckz, Pixa, Zuu, Mek, juzza1, (+11 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 20:48:35 *** Netsplit over, joins: parkette, SmatZ, SpComb, XeryusTC, andythenorth_, TheMask96, Zuu, +tokai|noir, HellTiger, Elukka (+11 more) 20:49:21 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 20:53:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i killed it :p 20:58:31 <Supercheese> Neticide 21:25:48 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:26:33 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-213-220-193-253.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 21:58:28 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-062-077.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:02:18 *** Alice3 [~Alice@cpc18-grim14-2-0-cust478.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 22:11:26 *** Ristovski [~rafael@78.157.7.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:13:31 *** andythenorth_ [~andytheno@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:15:20 *** sla_ro|master [~slamaster@89.137.75.224] has quit [Quit: connection reset by myself] 22:21:12 *** oskari892 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 22:36:00 <LordAro> night all 22:36:23 <NGC3982> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=K8Lo-C-w_U8 22:36:25 <NGC3982> Related. 22:36:34 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host86-165-37-110.range86-165.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:41:11 <Wolf01> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fSUK4WgQ3vk lol 22:45:05 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:03:21 *** Markavian [~Markavian@78-105-168-146.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:03:43 *** Markavian [~Markavian@78-105-168-146.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 23:03:45 *** glx [glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:03:57 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:9cb3:7256:d1ec:d19b] has joined #openttd 23:19:22 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A4BC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:24:59 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:26:35 <Eddi|zuHause> bÀh somebody slap me for trying to touch gui code... 23:30:58 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 23:32:16 <Wolf01> 'night 23:32:24 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]