Config
Log for #openttd on 4th May 2013:
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08:29:28  <andythenorth> o/
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08:34:44  <andythenorth> so compiling openttd.grf still mystifies me :)
08:35:34  <Alberth> ?
08:35:54  <Alberth> trunk grfcodec installed should work afaik
08:36:02  <andythenorth> can't find any way to build it using the makefiles in my checkout
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08:36:47  <andythenorth> neither the main makefile nor the one in objs/extra_grf/
08:37:01  <andythenorth> the dep check finds no changes in my filesystem
08:37:15  <andythenorth> although I have changed both png and nfo
08:37:47  <andythenorth> deleting openttd.grf from bin/baseset just causes the game to start with broken graphics
08:38:03  <andythenorth> interestingly, hg won't see my changes either, completely ignores the files
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08:39:45  <andythenorth> actually hg does see the change
08:40:22  <andythenorth> but makefile dep check doesn't
08:40:27  <Alberth> how did you run ./configure?
08:40:31  <andythenorth> ./configure
08:41:01  <andythenorth> no flags
08:42:29  <Alberth> I use   ./configure --enable-debug   (or actually ./configure --enable-debug=3  but level 3 is not needed)
08:45:43  <Alberth> ha, objs/extra_grf  has a Makefile for openttd.grf
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08:48:38  <Alberth> grfcodec is in the PATH?
08:51:29  <Alberth> Makefile.grf.in  seems to be the master version of the that makefile
08:56:07  <Alberth> config.lib has a generate_grf function that creates the Makefile in objects
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09:00:42  <andythenorth> grfcodec is in PATH
09:00:54  <andythenorth> or at least, I can use grfcodec from my checkout dir
09:01:09  <andythenorth> I haven't set a path in the makefile for it
09:02:41  <Alberth> you ran ./configure after it was in the path?
09:02:52  <Alberth> perhaps it does version checks
09:03:15  <andythenorth> k I'll check in a bit
09:03:17  <andythenorth> chores time :)
09:05:23  <Alberth> it does, it seems   line 941 of config.lib is the call, line 3157 is the function
09:09:59  <Alberth> config.log contains all the details of the configure process, look for grfcodec there
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09:10:25  <Alberth> my version says 958
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09:18:09  <Alberth> mornink Zuu
09:18:18  <Zuu> Hello Alberth
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10:07:08  <Alberth> o/
10:08:22  <LordAro> quak
10:09:24  <frosch123> moin :)
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10:14:11  <V453000> moo
10:14:15  <V453000> uni.
10:14:58  * LordAro has to finalize uni choices within the next couple of days
10:15:30  <Alberth> green unicorns are very popular
10:16:00  <juzza1> is there a way to create a train which restrics the ratio of engines/wagons to at least 1? this is what i've come up with so far
10:16:06  <juzza1> http://pastebin.com/NdG7Lnvm
10:16:27  <Alberth> how to buy an engine then?
10:16:30  <juzza1> if E = engine, W = wagon, it lets me create a train like EEEWWW but not EWEWEW
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10:16:57  <Alberth> ieks
10:17:24  <juzza1> so in the train there should always be at least one engine per one wagon
10:17:26  <Alberth> why do you enforce your world view upon others?
10:17:54  <Alberth> EWEWEW  <- that has 1 engine for each wagon too, imho
10:18:13  <V453000> why would you make a limit like that? :d
10:18:27  <V453000> it is just confusing for players and makes autoreplacing break unless you have the precise ratio
10:18:43  <juzza1> because the train in irl is like that
10:18:50  <V453000> that isnt a reason tbh
10:18:53  <V453000> it will break in the game badly
10:18:56  <juzza1> mm might not include it in final release, but would like to know if i can make it anyway
10:19:15  <Alberth> if you can we should fix the newgrf specs imho :p
10:19:32  <V453000> well you could always make the wagon articulated to the engine
10:20:05  <V453000> if the engine is double headed then you could just add some visual switches for end/beginning of consist
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10:20:58  <V453000> either way I would strongly advise not to make senseless restrictions, let the players construct trains as they want ... if you set their power to be very low, they will need to make more engines anyway
10:22:49  <V453000> you could also make the wagons look like engines
10:23:15  <Zuu> LordAro: What are your options?
10:23:33  <juzza1> if there is no easy way, i probably wont include it
10:23:54  <Alberth> juzza1: don't try to make OpenTTD a simulation of RL
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10:24:08  <Alberth> it won't give good game play, in general
10:24:14  <LordAro> Zuu: Imperial College London, University College London, York University & Loughborough University
10:24:18  <V453000> I cant think of any way, but making such "realistic" restrictions is only against the set
10:24:36  <LordAro> i'm probably going to go with Imperial as Firm choice, and York as Insurance
10:25:11  <Alberth> juzza1: ie any feature you add should increase game play fun, instead of making life more difficult
10:25:47  <V453000> ^
10:27:03  <Zuu> LordAro: what are your options for what to study?
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10:27:40  <Zuu> Those 3 universities are just names to me. :-)
10:27:52  <juzza1> yeah, im mostly against restrictions too, but this train has completely different couplings than other finnish trains IRL, so it would've been more of a interesting detail than annoying restriction
10:28:01  <juzza1> still, i guess it makes more sense not to overcomplicate things
10:29:14  <V453000> if you cant autoreplace to the train, you wont even notice the "interesting detail"
10:29:51  <Alberth> it just makes trains with an odd number of carriages impossible
10:30:12  <V453000> coolings are irrelevant to the game. The train is still a box with some stats; adapt its stats to the way you want it to behave
10:31:03  <V453000> obviously there always will be people who are using the trains "wrongly" but they will discover the "right" way sooner or later ... and you could always write that into purchase menu/readme/wiki
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10:31:26  <Zuu> LordAro: I'd say, go CS if that is what you want, but even if you take a different path, having programming knowledge and education in a different work area is quite interesting too even if the formal programming education is quite short if you just go to random engineering programme (you may get 2-4 courses or so). Myself I took the later path.
10:31:58  <LordAro> Zuu: i have indeed applied for computer science
10:32:06  <V453000> couplings
10:32:09  <LordAro> computer science && maths for york
10:32:12  <V453000> still. :D point still stands
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10:36:45  <Wolf01> hello
10:36:50  <juzza1> V453000: i guess the relevancy depends greatly on the focus of the set and the player itself, but most would probably prefer a simpler approach as opposed to a restricted one
10:37:06  <Zuu> LordAro: Enyoy your time and late evenings with tha math books then. :D
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10:37:38  <Zuu> Its actually something special about doing math 8 hours a day. You'll see it when you are there.. :-)
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10:38:57  <Wolf01> http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=526817 at first I was "why people use brickshelf to put every kind of image they have" then I opened the images...
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10:39:52  <Wolf01> I think this is more realistic than the model train I have
10:40:47  <V453000> juzza1: realistic focus of the set has confirmed itself to be problematic many times before
10:42:37  <LordAro> Zuu: got to get there first :) Imperial offer = A*AAA (!!!), York offer = AAA
10:42:42  <juzza1> yes, i agree, makes not much sense considering other aspects of the game
10:42:46  <LordAro> speaking of which, i should be revising
10:43:40  <Alberth> Wolf01:  :D  , and hello
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10:52:33  <V453000> juzza1: here are some general ideas I had to make a train set comfortable to use http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2870
10:53:24  <V453000> the only thing I could think of now, is to make all wagons of equal length (without any articulation) and let there be only 1 generation of wagons which could be hauled by any engine, and would adapt their stats accordingly to what they are attached to
10:56:10  <V453000> in order to keep a good usability of the set (point 2 - all trains useful), it is a really good idea to make a table and write down what each train is exactly used as, and when ... e.g. http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nuts/wiki
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13:10:26  <andythenorth> LordAro: I interviewed at Imperial, seemed pretty good, was my second choice
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13:10:47  <andythenorth> this channel is mostly lego now it seems
13:10:56  <andythenorth> the brick disease spreads everywhere :(
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13:29:16  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly one person talked about lego in here
13:29:30  <__ln___> @seen bjarni
13:29:30  <DorpsGek> __ln___: bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 30 weeks, 0 days, 13 hours, 10 minutes, and 24 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
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13:42:45  <LordAro> huh, internet died
13:43:09  <LordAro> andythenorth: i also interviewed there (obviously) - scary clever people everywhere :L
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13:44:07  <LordAro> wait, what?
13:44:15  <Lord_Aro_> what are you doing?
13:44:24  <__ln___> it's you from evil parallel universe
13:44:41  <LordAro> it would seem so
13:44:44  <Lord_Aro_> it would seem so
13:45:30  <LordAro> hmm, i think irssi has managed to connect twice
13:45:41  <LordAro> hang on
13:45:50  <Lord_Aro_> let's work together to fix this!
13:45:56  <LordAro> ok
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13:48:38  <LordAro> has the paradox been successfully closed?
13:49:08  <__ln___> depends if you have a beard or not
13:49:25  <LordAro> well, i haven't shaved for a couple of days..
13:49:27  <LordAro> ..i think
13:49:29  <LordAro> :L
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16:06:06  <andythenorth> so how / where do I check if grfcodec is in the path?
16:06:12  <andythenorth> wrt makefile?
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16:07:47  <Rubidium> andythenorth: did configure detect grfcodec? If not, then it won't be even trying in the makefile
16:07:55  <Zuu> there are a few utils: whereis, which etc. that give the path to a program. It will probably give an exit code <> 0 if the command is not in the path.
16:08:16  <andythenorth> Rubidium: thanks, old version, that should solve it
16:09:23  <andythenorth> winner
16:09:33  <andythenorth> bbl
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17:10:11  <Eddi|zuHause> "42% of americans are unaware that 'Obamacare' was put into law. 12% believe the law was repealed in congress, 7% believe it had been overturned by the supreme court and 23% don't know enough about the law to determine its status"
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17:16:35  <Alberth> it's not very different in Europe I think :)
17:18:11  <frosch123> yeah, i have no idea about obamacare
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17:21:05  <Eddi|zuHause> that's because it doesn't even remotely affect you
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18:14:41  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but... obamacare didn't pass. It's so watered down and filled with crap that it's nothing like what was initially proposed
18:14:43  <Alberth> andythenorth: is that build failure of bandit expected?
18:15:32  <andythenorth> not so much no :|
18:15:45  <andythenorth> I guess I have to look later :(
18:18:58  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: and as long as their (grand)parents aren't systematically murdered by the system, how are they supposed to know obamacare is in effect?
18:22:09  <Alberth> I messed with path resolving, perhaps that broke it
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18:27:12  <andythenorth> :)
18:31:44  <Wolf01> bye
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18:35:23  *** brambles_ is now known as brambles
18:37:00  <V453000> reserved tracls are always track_overlay, right?
18:37:10  <V453000> or is it possible to make reserved tracks and junctions differ?
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18:51:05  <andythenorth> not afaik
18:51:11  <andythenorth> they don't look very good if you look closely
18:53:50  <andythenorth> building openttd.grf fails on line 11 of orig_dos.obg.tmp
18:53:52  <andythenorth> !! description STR_BASEGRAPHICS_DOS_DESCRIPTION
18:54:02  <andythenorth> something missing?
18:56:23  <Rubidium> a proper awk or so?
18:56:32  <Rubidium> it should just work (tm)
18:57:09  <Rubidium> andythenorth: can you be more specific w.r.t. error messages?
18:57:25  <andythenorth> hang on
18:57:42  <andythenorth> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2259/
18:57:46  <andythenorth> yeah, looks like bad awk
18:57:54  <andythenorth> mine shows version 20070501
18:57:56  <andythenorth> sounds old
19:00:12  <Rubidium> sounds like you got mawk which might not have that function
19:00:45  <andythenorth> OS X allegedly has BSD awk
19:00:50  <andythenorth> rather than gawk or such
19:01:53  <andythenorth> fink
19:02:02  <andythenorth> hmm wrong window :P
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19:15:55  <andythenorth> so I have gawk installed, and have aliased awk to gawk
19:16:33  <andythenorth> but I get the same error as I posted above
19:16:37  <andythenorth> I have run ./configure
19:18:20  <Alberth> alias in the shell?
19:18:42  <andythenorth> bash_profile
19:18:53  <andythenorth> alias awk=/usr/local/Cellar/gawk/4.0.1/bin/gawk
19:19:06  <Alberth> make doesn't find commands via the shell
19:19:11  <andythenorth> right
19:20:38  <Alberth> ./configure has a --awk  option
19:21:04  <Rubidium> andythenorth: that's only a workaround :(
19:21:29  <Rubidium> andythenorth: http://rbijker.net/openttd/try_this.diff ;)
19:21:38  <Rubidium> (make sure you're not using gawk)
19:21:57  <Alberth> hmm, FIRS without FISH is not good :p
19:22:44  <andythenorth> I should make FISH 2 :P
19:22:59  <andythenorth> Rubidium: \o/ (I think)
19:24:05  <Alberth> it cannot transport fish now :(
19:24:27  <andythenorth> so a whole lot of river sprites are unused afaict?
19:24:39  <andythenorth> are there multiple slope variants?
19:29:09  <Rubidium> andythenorth: is my deduction that it work for your awk correct?
19:29:16  <andythenorth> yes
19:29:28  <andythenorth> I am looking at pink pixels in game
19:29:30  <andythenorth> intentionally ;)
19:30:43  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r25218 /trunk (9 files in 2 dirs) (2013-05-04 19:30:37 UTC)
19:30:44  <DorpsGek> -Fix: the baseset description translation script did not work with any awk other than gawk
19:31:18  <andythenorth> :)
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19:47:05  <alluke> i just came here to break the silence
19:48:18  <V453000> die infidel!
19:48:24  <V453000> silence must be preserved
19:49:24  <alluke> bahhahaa
19:49:28  <alluke> you cant stop me
19:49:46  <V453000> :(
19:54:10  <andythenorth> hmm
19:54:16  * andythenorth considers patching river drawing
19:54:20  <LordAro> again?
19:54:22  <LordAro> :p
19:54:29  <andythenorth> curves currently show straight banks underneath
19:54:41  <andythenorth> ach nvm
19:55:01  <alluke> last time i was here you talked about drawing rivers
19:55:05  <alluke> and now again
19:55:39  <V453000> you have bad influence on him
19:55:41  <V453000> silence
19:55:50  <frosch123> night
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19:56:03  <andythenorth> any better? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/4409/new_curves_rivers.png
19:56:06  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ?
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19:56:14  <andythenorth> not finished sprite btw
19:56:16  <andythenorth> just the shape
19:57:03  <alluke> i think its too sharp
19:57:33  <andythenorth> ok I'll add that to my long list of feedback, thanks
19:57:40  <alluke> flowing water should smoothen the edges
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19:57:47  <alluke> see real pictures
19:57:57  <andythenorth> oh fuck, I should have thought of that
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19:58:12  <andythenorth> what is too sharp?
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19:58:40  <alluke> the shape
19:59:17  <andythenorth> right
19:59:25  <andythenorth> ok I'll revert back to the standard rivers
20:00:58  <andythenorth> better? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/4412/old_curves.png
20:01:21  <alluke> yes
20:01:59  <andythenorth> ok forget rivers then
20:02:09  <alluke> i dont think its possible to make realistic curving rivers when you can build only 90° curves
20:02:16  <andythenorth> Alberth: what do you think causes the bandit bug?
20:02:50  <alluke> i havent heard news from bandit for long time
20:02:54  <Alberth> .. is not recognized as path component?
20:03:06  <andythenorth> alluke: the news is there is a bug
20:03:30  <alluke> lol
20:03:54  <alluke> but the topic havent got any news about development
20:03:59  <alluke> i thought it was dead
20:04:03  <andythenorth> it is
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20:05:21  <V453000> dying
20:06:17  <alluke> about time
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20:12:31  <nicfer>  bello
20:13:30  <nicfer> hello*
20:13:44  <Alberth> o/
20:14:20  <V453000> hu
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20:17:31  <nicfer> I'm trying to make a newgrf that modifies industries to accept different cargos but I can't understand how to use the cargotype() function
20:19:40  <nicfer> for use on the accepted_cargo variable
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20:23:06  <alluke> lol
20:23:36  <alluke> osku :3
20:26:01  <nicfer> wait
 is there a better IRC for this question? I forgot to tell that I'm using NML
20:26:57  <Supercheese> this is the best IRC
20:27:07  <alluke> and only?
20:27:25  <Supercheese> well, openttdcoop IRC might work too
20:27:29  <Supercheese> but this channel's better
20:27:33  <Supercheese> anyway lemme see
20:27:55  <alluke> i dont count coop and dev
20:28:08  <Supercheese> well, if you don't count them then yeah :P
20:28:35  <Supercheese> accepted_cargos [COAL, 8];
20:28:40  <Supercheese> something like that eh?
20:28:50  <Supercheese> cargo labels can be found on a wiki page
20:29:01  <Supercheese> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/CargoTypes
20:29:20  <Supercheese> you shouldn't need a special function
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20:29:53  <Supercheese> Ah, [COAL, 8] is for industry tile
20:29:59  <Supercheese> [COAL, 8]*
20:30:14  <Supercheese> It'd just be accepted_cargo_types [COAL]; for industry
20:31:28  <Supercheese> did that answer ya?
20:34:02  *** nicfer [~yaaic@190.50.6.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:34:51  <Supercheese> whoops :S
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20:57:23  <Sacro> Anyone around? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=65699
20:59:14  <Rubidium> not using one of the supported versions of MSVC?
20:59:25  <Sacro> I'm guessing 2012 counts as 'not supported'?
20:59:45  <Rubidium> I guess so
20:59:49  <Sacro> Ah :*
20:59:51  <Sacro> :*
20:59:52  <Sacro> er
20:59:53  <Sacro> :(
21:00:58  <__ln___> http://imgur.com/JtX35i9
21:01:45  <Supercheese> Hmmm
21:02:17  <Rubidium> I seem to remember it needing Windows 8, so... no chance of me running it
21:02:51  <Sacro> Nope, runs in 7
21:03:28  <glx> 2012 works
21:04:20  <glx> but should use 2010 compilers
21:04:22  <glx> IIRC
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21:10:46  <__ln___> http://is11.snstatic.fi/img/978/1288562695362.jpg
21:11:58  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln___: it's called a backburner :p
21:15:14  <Sacro> glx: so how'd you get past that error?
21:18:29  <glx> Sacro: use another platform toolset in project properties
21:18:57  <glx> anything except VS2012 toolset
21:21:48  <glx> http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=8279 <-- like this one
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21:25:46  <alluke> lol
21:26:23  <alluke> someones reading ilta-sanomat
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21:36:57  <andythenorth> I have some kind of palette issue, and only the RH banks are changed
21:36:58  <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/4421/meh_rivers.png
21:37:02  <andythenorth> but fuck it, this is better
21:37:25  <alluke> rofl
21:37:38  <alluke> i just made train hit 1046 kmh
21:38:25  <Supercheese> andy: the southeastern end looks odd
21:38:27  <alluke> 20 invisible power boosters + few serbian cabooses
21:39:58  <peter1139> cheat
21:40:05  <andythenorth> Supercheese: needs the appropriate curve on the other bank
21:41:14  <Supercheese> can the banks overlap at the terminus?
21:41:28  <Supercheese> seems like it
21:41:32  <Supercheese> should be good
21:41:39  <gelignite> hey guys, quick question (AI development): what's best practise to check whether i can build a depot on a sloped tile?
21:43:42  <Eddi|zuHause> there should be a flag to try building without actually building anything (similar to a human holding shift)
21:44:17  * alluke slaps oskari89 around a bit with a large fishbot
21:44:23  <LordAro> AITestMode iirc
21:44:43  <glx> Eddi|zuHause: something like CAPSLOCK ?
21:45:21  <LordAro> g'night all
21:45:26  <Eddi|zuHause> I DON'T THINK THAT IS WHAT WAS MEANT :P
21:45:40  <LordAro> http://bash.org/?835030
21:45:47  <LordAro> ^relevant, somewhat
21:46:12  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, a classic :)
21:46:21  <LordAro> indeed :)
21:46:40  <LordAro> anyway, g'night, again
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21:55:00  <nicfer> back
21:56:18  <nicfer> I tried your tip cheese but it didn't work
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21:56:47  <nicfer> using the cargoid did
21:57:27  <nicfer> for example accepted_cargo_type: [01]; made the industry accept coal
21:57:53  <Eddi|zuHause> did you use a cargo translation table?
21:58:40  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if that solves anything, though. usually they are for vehicle sets, not for industry sets
21:59:06  <Supercheese> afk
22:00:11  <Eddi|zuHause> that is a blatant lie :p
22:00:33  <Eddi|zuHause> you have to be at the keyboard to type afk :)
22:09:07  <Zuu> gelignite: SuperLib has some methods to check if a tile allows different type of construction with respect to slope.
22:09:21  <Zuu> I would look into SuperLib::Tile to start with.
22:09:26  <nicfer> I remember seeing somewhere how to create those cargo translation tables
22:09:40  <nicfer> but don't remember how
22:10:36  <Zuu> gelignite: here are the slope methods of SuperLib: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/superlib/repository/revisions/40806b989652/entry/tile.nut#L69
22:11:17  <Zuu> The method to use for depots is: SuperLib.Tile.IsBuildOnSlope_FlatForTerminusInDirection
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22:12:47  <gelignite> Zuu, thanks. I'll have a look.
22:13:15  <Zuu> I'm not 100% sure the slope methods have been updated by the new build-on-slope rules for eg. airports, but it should at least not return false positives.
22:15:49  <gelignite> Zuu, seems pretty much to be what i was looking for. and in case it doesn't fit my needs i'll adapt it. thanks
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22:16:26  <andythenorth> wtf happened to the palette in this file?
22:16:34  <Zuu> If you find any bugs, please let me know by eg. posting to the SuperLib thread.
22:16:37  <andythenorth> nvm
22:16:38  <andythenorth> bed
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22:27:21  <alluke> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1004368/N%C3%A4ytt%C3%B6kuva%202013-05-02%20kohteessa%2019.25.45.png
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22:27:31  <alluke> now what could cause this?
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22:28:06  <nicfer> also, can industries use cargo provided via their tiles (like passengers on steel mills) to alterate their production rates?
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22:51:32  <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: that happens when the border sprites aren't drawn properly
22:52:33  <Eddi|zuHause> like a grf replacing the wrong sprites, or using the moreheightlevels patch without the flat blacktiles
22:53:29  <Eddi|zuHause> nicfer: no, industries can only handle the input cargos you directly specify. industrytiles can accept more, but they can't be processed
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23:22:07  <nicfer> how do I enable industries on non-native climates? I looked at the NML specs but didn't find anything
23:26:18  <Eddi|zuHause> looked at other industry sets like OpenGRF+Industries?
23:26:45  <Eddi|zuHause> it has that exact feature, you know?
23:27:40  <nicfer> they do something like enabling it inside a conditional
23:30:33  <Eddi|zuHause> the conditional is about the parameter so the player can choose
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23:41:03  <nicfer> there are also conditionals about climates
23:41:59  <nicfer> mostly in #define lines
23:42:57  <nicfer> like, if it's not the correct climate, the industries get disabled
23:44:08  <nicfer> but I don't find the line that actually enables them
23:44:21  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but again, these defines are distractions. where the defines are used you must search
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