Config
Log for #openttd on 9th October 2013:
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01:24:19  <kristal> Is the most popular version win64?
01:24:43  <Eddi|zuHause> probably not
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01:35:11  <Supercheese> win32, surely
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01:39:19  <Eddi|zuHause> it might be interesting when that tips
01:39:35  <kristal> >4gb maps lol
01:39:59  <kristal> Create... World Of Transport!
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06:22:40  <dihedral> hello
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10:48:20  <bon> do any of you know if callback 14B or 14C has ever been used or not so much that its just more of 'we know its in the spec' thing?
10:48:32  <bon> re industrial grfs mm
10:50:37  <V453000> no nml? :d
10:50:59  <bon> no :)
10:53:43  <planetmaker> bon, unlikely that it's not used, if it's in the specs (though not totally impossible)
10:54:38  <bon> can see why a player probably wouldn't like a randomized industry but I still had to ask about that callback now. thanks ^_^
10:54:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure andy was very close to using those for ports
10:55:27  <planetmaker> randomized cargo is being used
10:55:46  <planetmaker> afaik. But be very very careful about it. It will annoy users a lot
10:55:52  <bon> even although its nothing related to ottd I do actually know the port in railroad tycoon indeed always come randomized :->
10:56:09  <bon> indeed, just like I thought planetmaker
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10:56:36  <Eddi|zuHause> it is well known that RRT3 had a big influence on FIRS
10:56:36  <planetmaker> and break the industry chain view as it only checks statically
10:56:59  <bon> rrt3?  I never ever did play that thing much beyond trying a demo of it for a few minutes at early release
10:57:15  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a missing feature of the industry chain view, though
10:57:15  <bon> I do own rrt2 and the expansion for it tho
10:58:04  *** LordAro [~LordAro@sns61-110.york.ac.uk] has joined #openttd
10:59:39  <bon> I did found the rrt2 port to provide queer options sometimes. for example you could dump passengers in exchange for getting iron ore
11:00:00  <planetmaker> you "did found" or "did find"?
11:00:09  <V453000> the randomized cargo productions are quite wtf :| should call it different industries tbh
11:00:28  <bon> v453000 yeah thats what I had somewhat suspected but this talk pretty much confirms it
11:04:58  <bon> one quick question in a different direction, when do you know you're starting to draw a single locomotive sprite with too long a length instead of breaking it up into articulated section? or theres no hard rules
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11:18:47  <V453000> HELLO
11:19:26  <tigeroo> hello
11:19:41  <__ln__>  HELLO
11:20:38  <bon> mm?
11:20:47  * bon was here the whole time
11:21:50  <V453000> netsplit :)
11:22:06  <tigeroo> crazy stuff
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11:27:41  <LordAro> it seems my power supply is dying
11:27:46  <LordAro> anyone got any advice?
11:28:09  <SpComb> wait for it to catch fire
11:28:38  <V453000> I declare that a good advice
11:28:38  <LordAro> D:
11:29:57  <peter1139> Possibly better advice: replace it.
11:30:35  <LordAro> i'm not entirely convinced it is though
11:30:45  <LordAro> it was making a not-very-nice noise
11:30:48  <LordAro> but now it isn't
11:31:11  <LordAro> vacuuming (seemingly initially) had no effect
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11:34:09  <V453000> hammer fixes anything
11:34:11  <LordAro> either way, i think i'll keep http://www.amazon.co.uk/Corsair-Builder-Series-Bronze-Supply/dp/B009RMP2VE/ in my basket, at least
11:34:38  <LordAro> V453000: yes, the Jeremy Clarkson method :)
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11:45:08  <bon> sorry browser issues heh
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12:55:14  <AndreasB> lol noob
12:57:21  <Sturmi> says the noob #1
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13:00:13  <AndreasB> Right
13:00:16  <AndreasB> Pausers
13:00:19  <AndreasB> thats what you are
13:00:19  <AndreasB> .#
13:00:26  <AndreasB> now shut the fuck up, and leave me alone
13:01:05  <planetmaker> don't spam here. No foul language. And please be as tolerant with being named as you name others, AndreasB
13:02:02  <AndreasB> Well fuck you too then
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13:04:48  <V453000> LMFAO
13:05:12  <V453000> apparently everything is bad cause you cant shoot people in it
13:06:27  <V453000> BTW pm this was all just a cute discussion where he was agressively against Public Server ever pausing XD
13:06:32  <planetmaker> lol. I just saw the rant in #openttdcoop :D Bad time for him, eh? :D
13:06:37  <V453000> quite
13:06:42  <planetmaker> yeah. Stupid
13:06:48  <V453000> unfortunately whole world was against him
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13:31:44  <Belugas> hello
13:34:12  <Belugas> GY!BE - 09-15-00
13:37:00  <peter1139> :-)
13:40:17  <Belugas> thank you sir, so much!
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14:03:51  <peter1139> Quite.
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14:11:36  <peter1139> Holy shit, it's past 3pm already :S
14:20:50  <Belugas> done not much, I assume?
14:21:17  <peter1139> Mmm
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14:58:30  <Bad_Brett> i finally got that ssh thing to work
15:00:46  <planetmaker> o/
15:01:10  <Bad_Brett> hello planetmaker
15:01:18  <Bad_Brett> the pushing works properly now :-)
15:01:56  <planetmaker> great :-)
15:06:18  <Bad_Brett> i wonder, when i upload things to the repo, is there any ...license?
15:07:16  <planetmaker> no. and yes.
15:08:26  <planetmaker> DevZone is home to open-source projects
15:08:47  <Bad_Brett> yeah i know
15:08:58  <planetmaker> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/home/issues/new?tracker_id=6&issue[subject]=Applying%20for%20project:%20%3Cname%20here%3E&issue[priority_id]=7&issue[watcher_user_ids][]=4&issue[watcher_user_ids][]=3&issue[watcher_user_ids][]=115&issue[Category]=something&issue[description]=Hello,%20I%20would%20like%20to%20request%20a%20project%20on%20your%20DevZone,%20my%20work%20is%20or%20will%20be%20GPL%20and%20therefore%20legitimate%20to%20be%
15:08:58  <planetmaker> 20hosted%20from%20you.%20More%20infos%20follow is the default request for new projects
15:09:10  <planetmaker> hm
15:09:13  <planetmaker> bad link :-)
15:09:15  <Eddi|zuHause> long url is too long
15:09:25  <Eddi|zuHause> didn't we discuss a shorter url once?
15:10:08  <planetmaker> well :-) the URL basically contains the issue text :D
15:10:18  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
15:10:40  <Bad_Brett> i just added the last part, no problem there
15:10:59  <planetmaker> no, don't create such issue now, Bad_Brett :-)
15:13:08  <Bad_Brett> :-)
15:13:08  <Bad_Brett> anyway
15:13:08  <planetmaker> anyway, there's no license information added automatically to a project. But I will insist on an OSI-approved license being used, preferentially GPL v2+
15:13:08  <Bad_Brett> alright, so i'm allowed to pick a license?
15:13:14  <planetmaker> well, yes. What do you have in mind?
15:13:59  <planetmaker> I very much would like to urge GPL v2+... to keep it easy to collaborate
15:13:59  <Bad_Brett> the thing i want to avoid is, for example, that someone copies every house and include them in their own grf before mine is released
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15:14:42  <Eddi|zuHause> well, that would be "no derivatives"
15:14:51  <peter1139> Difficult to prevent that without being open-source.
15:14:53  <Eddi|zuHause> which is generally bad for community-driven projects
15:15:06  <planetmaker> yes ^
15:15:14  <planetmaker> Besides that, I haven't seen that thing happening
15:15:29  <Eddi|zuHause> unless you count sergej :=)
15:15:32  <peter1139> er... *with* not without
15:15:42  <peter1139> Eddi|zuHause, yeah but he did that regardless of license :)
15:15:46  <planetmaker> and the license assures that *you* will need be attributed for the sprites no-matter-what
15:15:58  <Bad_Brett> that russian site?
15:16:00  <planetmaker> But if you want "no derivatives", then the DevZone is not the place for you
15:16:25  <peter1139> No derivatives means if you give up, or something bad happens, it's all lost :(
15:16:30  <planetmaker> ^
15:17:12  <Bad_Brett> hmmm
15:17:30  <planetmaker> which is why I really advocate GPL v2+. It allows derivatives. It requires attribution. It requires disclosing which changes are made and providing the source in turn as well
15:17:58  <planetmaker> For the reason peter1139 just stated: no derivatives is too much a danger for me to actually invest time in
15:18:30  <planetmaker> and I'm also not happy to invest money (=DevZone) into stuff I may not make continue to work with OpenTTD
15:19:29  <Bad_Brett> "and the license assures that *you* will need be attributed for the sprites no-matter-what"
15:19:32  <planetmaker> I'm all happy to give all support, both time and ressources to projects which are open and allow just that: derivatives as anyone sees fit. But always sharing changes and giving attribution
15:20:51  <Bad_Brett> so, theoretically, someone can copy the entire project and add a text files which states "graphics by Bad_Brett"?
15:21:14  <planetmaker> you should add that file yourself ;-)
15:21:46  <Eddi|zuHause> looks like the last discussion about too-long-project-request-url quickly degraded into "look at this geociticizer"
15:22:02  <Bad_Brett> :-)
15:22:30  <planetmaker> But yes. Anyone is allowed to clone the project. Make changes as s/he sees fit. State "graphics and code by Bad_Brett. X and Y modifed by myself" and release that.
15:22:42  <Zuu> But yes, someone can use your graphics as long as he/she also follow the GPL2 license and share the source of his/her project. It also need to carry an attribution to you.
15:22:46  <planetmaker> no-one can claim your work as his, Bad_Brett
15:22:51  <planetmaker> and that imho is the important thing
15:22:57  <Bad_Brett> yes of course
15:22:57  <peter1139> Sharing work is not a bad thing.
15:23:01  <Bad_Brett> i have no problem with that
15:23:16  <peter1139> Obviously if you were wanting to make money from it, open source might not be the best route.
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15:23:38  <Eddi|zuHause> ah there it is: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/ask_new_project
15:23:51  <planetmaker> :-O @ Eddi|zuHause
15:23:55  <planetmaker> where did you find that link? :-)
15:25:04  <Zuu> It was possible created last time the same problem occured :-)
15:25:19  <planetmaker> possibly. But it left not a single residue in my memory :D
15:25:45  <Zuu> This page should possible be changed to use the short link: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/home
15:25:50  <Eddi|zuHause> [Dienstag, 23. Juli 2013] [20:13:06] <^Spike^>  ... and we never setup a short url for that?
15:25:56  <planetmaker> :-)
15:25:58  <Eddi|zuHause> and following discussion
15:26:18  <planetmaker> Zuu, totally yes :-)
15:26:27  <Zuu> And https://dev.openttdcoop.org/
15:27:12  <Zuu> At least the former I could do, the later is more hidden where you need to edit the page. Though I don't know if I'm allowed to do that or not.
15:28:19  <planetmaker> I fixed the former
15:29:20  <planetmaker> Bad_Brett, what made you suddenly(?) reconsider the license? Last time we talked you seemed all happy about GPL?
15:30:00  <Bad_Brett> well, i don't want to see half-finished work end up on some russian site
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15:30:36  <peter1139> That can happen regardless of your license.
15:31:07  <planetmaker> those people will not care about the license. Indeed
15:31:52  <Bad_Brett> the thing that scares a bit, is that i know that many people are becoming impatient because the project is taking too long
15:32:21  <Pinkbeast> Conversely, what if you fall under a bus tomorrow? It might be useful if others could complete the project.
15:33:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think you'd find anyone crazy enough for that :)
15:33:31  <Bad_Brett> :-)
15:34:05  <Bad_Brett> sadly enough, i doubt that anyone would invest enough time to do that
15:34:09  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, but it would still allow then to salvage some parts :-P
15:34:47  <Bad_Brett> yes, and that's the dilemma
15:34:48  <Pinkbeast> Bad_Brett: Surely then the answer is not to release it until finished?
15:34:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: but the point is, people could do smaller tweaks, e.g. to cater for some updates in game mechanics
15:35:32  <planetmaker> Bad_Brett, how is it really a dilemma?
15:35:47  <peter1139> I guess it's all a mindset. I'd rather concentrate on improving my work rather than worry about what others are doing with it.
15:35:57  <planetmaker> ^^
15:36:07  <Pinkbeast> I think as planetmaker says, if people are going to rip it off, they're going to rip it off, regardless.
15:36:54  <planetmaker> also... peter1139 is right. It's a mindset thing. Personally I don't mind too much, if people just take my work and do whatever with it. As long as they credit my part in it
15:37:26  <planetmaker> People have different ideas of what is 'nice'. So... let them have their joy, I'll have mine. In the end more people will be happy
15:37:34  <planetmaker> And I can always point to my "original work"
15:37:53  <Bad_Brett> well, the problem is, that if there is a grf called "western trains", another one called "western towns", a third one called "western landscape", i'm pretty certain that i would lose interest in the project
15:37:53  <planetmaker> and say  that it's the way it's meant to be :-)
15:38:25  <planetmaker> good that there isn't
15:38:34  <Bad_Brett> :-)
15:39:20  <Bad_Brett> what i mean is... if someone clones parts of FIRS, it would be rather obvious that it contains parts o FIRS
15:40:44  <Bad_Brett> but if someone clones parts of something that isn't even close to a realised, it might seem like I'm the one who's doing the cloning when my project is released (because who actually reads those license files)?
15:40:55  <Bad_Brett> ...
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15:40:59  <Bad_Brett> bad english
15:41:00  <Bad_Brett> haha
15:41:13  <Bad_Brett> need more sleep
15:41:40  <planetmaker> no, it wouldn't seem like. As he's then not crediting you properly
15:42:03  <peter1139> If they can clone it legimately, they're far more likely to make it clear where they came from, imho.
15:42:19  <planetmaker> Like OpenGFX. Or zBase. It's mostly Zephyris' work. All know that. But he didn't write a single line of code for either
15:42:35  <planetmaker> except... scripts for sprite generation / blender stuff
15:42:36  <peter1139> Also the person who would clone might end up wanting to contribute directly instead of cloning.
15:42:45  <planetmaker> ^ I would expect that much more
15:43:18  <peter1139> That does mean a free-for-all with random art styles though, as you are still the maintainer.
15:43:21  <peter1139> er
15:43:21  <peter1139> *deson't*
15:43:24  <peter1139> oh vballs
15:43:28  <peter1139> *doesn't*
15:43:29  <peter1139> *balls*
15:43:32  * peter1139 looks at his keyboard.
15:44:19  <Taede> if you upload to devzone pre-release, you also automatically have proof that you added the house to your repo well before hypothetical cloner added it to his grf, so i wouldn't worry about ppl thinking you are the cloner
15:44:39  <planetmaker> ^ good point, Taede :-)
15:44:54  <planetmaker> the repo is proof of authorship
15:45:01  <planetmaker> kinda
15:45:12  <planetmaker> unless you commit stolen stuff :D
15:45:20  <Bad_Brett> i don't think you understand my problem :-)
15:45:33  <Bad_Brett> it's not so much about getting credits
15:47:26  <Bad_Brett> it's more that i have a vision of how i want it it to be
15:47:39  <Bad_Brett> if people don't like it and decide to change it, that's great
15:47:41  <planetmaker> well, yes. Follow that vision. No-one's going to stop you
15:49:25  <planetmaker> but then I don't quite understand your problem indeed :-)
15:50:45  <planetmaker> your fear is that someone releases a newgrf with your artwork before you do. And you don't want that.
15:50:49  <planetmaker> right?
15:51:02  <Bad_Brett> yes
15:51:43  <planetmaker> suggestion: nightly builds. Thus... you release it whenever you make a change :D
15:51:57  <planetmaker> 'release'. for those daring enough to test test builds
15:52:07  <planetmaker> real releases are different
15:52:31  <planetmaker> just like openttd nightlies. some use it. and get new features earlier. test them. give feedback. provide hints for bugs
15:52:58  <Bad_Brett> hmm yes, that sounds like a good option
15:52:58  <planetmaker> same can work there for your newgrf. And real releases will be published properly so that anyone can obtain them conveniently. via bananananannanananananaassss
15:54:24  <Bad_Brett> many things would be so much easier if i used the repo
15:54:43  <planetmaker> well. The repo is up and running for at least 4 weeks ;-)
15:55:04  <Bad_Brett> :-)
15:56:13  <Bad_Brett> i know some simutrans guy actually took houses from my screenshots and included them in some graphics pack, though i don't think it was released
15:57:39  <planetmaker> so... did he ask and attribute you?
15:58:01  <planetmaker> did you tell him what you think of it, if he didn't? And why do you care if he does it in private?
15:59:01  <Bad_Brett> i don't care
15:59:18  <planetmaker> in private anything goes really. Fun only starts if you distribute stuff :D
16:02:24  <Bad_Brett> yeah
16:03:25  <Bad_Brett> i think that 8bpp versions of some of my houses will be featured in danmack's new project
16:03:32  <Bad_Brett> which i think is great
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16:04:09  <Bad_Brett> because i love his work and would be happy to contribute
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16:06:01  <Bad_Brett> the thing i want to avoid is that someone takes my have finished work and release it without even adding anything
16:06:10  <Bad_Brett> *half-finished
16:08:13  <Bad_Brett> i'm gonna think about this
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16:09:47  <planetmaker> *sigh*
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16:26:26  <Bad_Brett> well, the whole reason i began doing graphics for openttd, was that i hated what the gaming industry had become... rushed releases, content split up in DLC's... and this is something that, while unlikely, could happen
16:27:01  <Eddi|zuHause> well, effectively, you "only" make a DLC :)
16:27:25  <Bad_Brett> haha... whoopie :-)
16:29:49  <peter1139> Everyone loves DLC. Nobody likes paying for DLC, though...
16:30:46  <Bad_Brett> i don't agree :-)
16:31:43  <Bad_Brett> in my opinion: a train set dlc = good, a single locomotive dlc = potentially game breaking
16:31:59  <peter1139> Yeah.
16:32:13  <peter1139> True, I was thinking big packs of content, not individual.
16:32:30  <matkum> what is the most efficient way to rapidly grow a city
16:32:46  <Bad_Brett> my main issue with dlc is that often screw up the game balance
16:32:50  <peter1139> At least 5 regularly serviced stations.
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16:36:47  <Bad_Brett> though i just realised
16:37:31  <Bad_Brett> my train graphics are split up in thousands of parts... good luck copying that :-)
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17:34:24  <Wolf01> quak
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17:34:30  <frosch123> moin
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17:45:29  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25826 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2013-10-09 17:45:21 UTC)
17:45:30  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:31  <DorpsGek> simplified_chinese - 4 changes by siu238X
17:45:32  <DorpsGek> finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
17:45:33  <DorpsGek> korean - 2 changes by telk5093
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19:03:53  <andythenorth> hmm
19:04:00  <andythenorth> is this wise? :P
19:04:03  <V453000> no
19:04:05  <andythenorth> ok
19:04:09  <V453000> yw
19:04:09  <andythenorth> I'll do it anyway
19:04:13  <V453000> yes
19:04:47  <andythenorth> wonder if I've done it right
19:04:55  <andythenorth> sometimes I would like a little more debug info
19:04:56  <andythenorth> wrt newgrf trains
19:05:04  <V453000> what did you do
19:05:05  <andythenorth> I am used to industry debug, which is good
19:05:20  <andythenorth> I am having vehicles made up of 1/8 parts
19:05:26  <andythenorth> so an 8/8 vehicle is 8 parts
19:05:44  <Supercheese> Did you address the air drag issue?
19:05:47  <andythenorth> but I can't inspect the consist to see if I did right or wrong
19:05:52  <andythenorth> no I didn't address air drag
19:05:55  <Supercheese> hmm
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19:06:08  <andythenorth> first I need to compose the consist :P
19:06:44  <andythenorth> the game should calculate air drag proportional to length
19:06:44  <andythenorth> shouldn't be my problem, eh?
19:06:44  <andythenorth> :D
19:07:19  <V453000> omfg why even care about air drag?
19:07:34  <Sturmi> the game calculates air drag? o.O
19:07:54  <andythenorth> V453000: I don't care about air drag
19:08:14  <andythenorth> but some players have provided pikka with detailed bug reports about why their trains can't reach max speed :P
19:08:40  <Supercheese> and apparently the air drag calculations in the code have some issues with articulated parts
19:08:48  <andythenorth> hmm, this is looking all wrong
19:08:48  <andythenorth> meh
19:08:51  <andythenorth> oh, actually this wrong is right
19:09:03  <andythenorth> means everything works so far, it's just not finished :P
19:09:10  * andythenorth would like a prize
19:09:22  <andythenorth> I hope you all appreciate what I'm doing :P
19:09:26  * Supercheese gives andy a booby prize
19:09:30  <andythenorth> this is 30 mins of code
19:09:52  <V453000> peeerhaps pikka used broken values for power?
19:10:06  <andythenorth> it took 4 days of thinking about how to write only 40 mins of code
19:10:06  <andythenorth> otherwise I'd have spent hours writing it :P
19:12:28  <andythenorth> praps
19:12:33  <Bad_Brett> i usually code first, think later
19:13:00  <andythenorth> I done that already :)
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19:13:10  <andythenorth> code first, think 4 days, write more code
19:13:19  <Bad_Brett> yes
19:13:31  <Bad_Brett> for me it's more like...
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19:15:37  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> the game should calculate air drag proportional to length <-- that makes absolutely no sense. as the gaps between vehicles cause air drag, not the vehicles themselves
19:15:44  <andythenorth> oic :)
19:15:50  * andythenorth neglected that :)
19:15:53  <Bad_Brett> code, find 10 bugs, fix those bugs with really dirty solutions, to the point that i can no longer understand my own code... i figure out what i did wrong, think again, and finally code something decent
19:16:04  <andythenorth> so what, I have to fix airdrag myself?: P
19:16:25  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what's wrong with using the CETS method of 3-part-vehicles?
19:16:39  <andythenorth> don't know, I didn't look :)
19:16:42  <andythenorth> probably nothing
19:16:50  <andythenorth> I just found this way easy ;)
19:16:55  <Eddi|zuHause> you can leave out the turning state part
19:17:24  <Eddi|zuHause> it won't be much of a problem with 10lu vehicles
19:17:28  <andythenorth> so how did you do it?
19:17:34  <andythenorth> how long is each part?
19:18:21  <Eddi|zuHause> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/entry/scripts/tables.py <- the "parts" table
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19:19:44  <Bad_Brett> i love that solution
19:20:25  <andythenorth> 3G modem on a moving train :P
19:20:31  <andythenorth> that page is loading slowly
19:21:00  <andythenorth> yeah that makes total sense
19:21:23  <andythenorth> any reason not to just use 8 1/8 vehicles to compose an 8/8 vehicle?
19:21:26  <andythenorth> other than elegance?
19:21:40  <andythenorth> do you put the sprites on the second part?
19:21:42  <Eddi|zuHause> number of vehicle-IDs etc
19:21:53  <andythenorth> ah
19:21:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i assign different vehicle IDs to the front and back parts
19:22:08  <Eddi|zuHause> so i don't have to think about position-in-consist
19:22:10  <andythenorth> ok
19:22:26  <andythenorth> I am using same vehicle for all invisible trailing parts
19:22:31  <andythenorth> it's working now, I'll see if it has any problems :P
19:22:47  <Supercheese> are your graphics only on the first 1/8 part?
19:22:48  <andythenorth> dunno if the sprite offsets will be wrong, if they're always attached to 1/8 lead part
19:22:49  <Eddi|zuHause> so the front gets X, the middle X+2000 and the end X+4000
19:23:00  <andythenorth> Supercheese: yes
19:23:01  <Bad_Brett> my vehicles actually consist of 8 1/8 parts
19:23:06  <Supercheese> might have tunnel glitches
19:23:11  <andythenorth> Supercheese: ok, ta
19:23:15  <Supercheese> I think Eddi mentioned some stuff about that
19:23:21  <andythenorth> disappears too early?
19:23:25  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you should use the middle part as reference, to better match the turning point
19:23:25  <Supercheese> somethin like that
19:23:32  <andythenorth> hmm
19:24:04  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: my method makes sure it's odd-symmetric, so there is actually a middle
19:24:36  <andythenorth> I was really trying to avoid shenanigans where I have to put sprites on middle part
19:24:36  <andythenorth> it's really boring to figure that out :P
19:24:42  <andythenorth> load state sprites become a real cluster fuck
19:24:54  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i do that with templates
19:24:58  <andythenorth> yeah
19:25:04  <andythenorth> that's what I would have to do too
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19:25:15  <andythenorth> I am trying to avoid code that is complex to remember how it works
19:25:19  <Supercheese> well, borrow from Eddi's already existing stuff, then :)
19:25:24  <Supercheese> ah
19:25:40  <andythenorth> Supercheese: then I have to remember how Eddi's stuff works :)
19:25:43  <Supercheese> yeah
19:25:46  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't think your way is better in that respect :)
19:26:00  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: how do you handle load sprites?
19:26:05  <andythenorth> you have to check lead vehicle?
19:26:29  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the middle vehicle has capacity, the other parts reference the middle part through var61
19:26:37  <andythenorth> where is your cargo capacity?
19:26:46  <Eddi|zuHause> which is another reason why they get different IDs
19:27:02  <andythenorth> do you have any visibly articulated vehicles?
19:27:12  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
19:27:13  <andythenorth> e.g. a triple-pack container wagon or similar
19:27:28  <Eddi|zuHause> lots of DMUs and EMUs
19:28:37  <andythenorth> hmm
19:28:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a regexp-style pattern that generates the articulated vehicle callback
19:28:47  <andythenorth> that makes sense
19:28:56  <Eddi|zuHause> so i have "front, 3x middle, back"
19:29:24  <andythenorth> the problem I've got is that I don't know if it's worth binning (some large amount) of the current set templating just to provide 10/8 long coaches
19:29:46  <andythenorth> and I didn't want to special case anything over 8/8 (I already tried that, it's simple, but special case smells)
19:30:35  <Eddi|zuHause> you just make the sprites larger, and port over my slicing mechanism.
19:30:51  <andythenorth> I have to shuffle all the properties to middle vehicle too
19:31:06  <andythenorth> this set is just not structured for that :)
19:31:07  <Eddi|zuHause> you can make it front vehicle as well
19:31:14  <Eddi|zuHause> just a matter of var61 offset
19:31:23  <Bad_Brett> i use the front vehicle
19:31:28  <Bad_Brett> no problem at all
19:31:35  <Bad_Brett> (so far)
19:31:52  <andythenorth> Bad_Brett: you use it for sprites or just for properties?
19:32:05  <Eddi|zuHause> actually, if you use position-in-id-chain front is easier
19:32:06  <Bad_Brett> properties
19:32:23  <andythenorth> so you have to handle all loading states and crap manually?
19:32:29  <Eddi|zuHause> as you just pass that position to var61 parameter
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19:32:37  <andythenorth> can't just rely on the spritegroup for loading states?
19:32:52  <Eddi|zuHause> no, that won't work
19:32:55  <andythenorth> nope
19:33:04  <andythenorth> I was trying to avoid all this stuff :)
19:33:24  <andythenorth> I have no interest in 10/8, but I don't mind them, and Dan wants it
19:33:31  <Eddi|zuHause> but i find the stepping bad anyway, i'd rather have 0-10-90-100 for 3 loading steps than 0-33-66-100
19:33:55  <Eddi|zuHause> when i handle that manually, i have that freedom
19:34:24  * andythenorth will have to think on some more
19:34:34  <andythenorth> the CETS table will port straight over
19:34:43  <andythenorth> but I'd have to adapt or write my own templating
19:35:03  <Bad_Brett> i haven't added any loading graphics yet, but out of curiosity, is there any way i can animate them?
19:35:12  <andythenorth> animate how?
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19:35:28  <Eddi|zuHause> just use the whole CETS script/table/template (with turning angles and all)
19:35:35  <Eddi|zuHause> way easiest method :)
19:35:43  <andythenorth> well true
19:35:57  <andythenorth> have you written a docs generator for it?
19:36:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: there is no animation state, so either you have palette animation, or you use movement steps or somesuch
19:36:38  <Eddi|zuHause> you might have a tick counter though, not checked
19:36:50  <Bad_Brett> there is that global counter
19:36:55  <Bad_Brett> but i haven't tried it
19:37:07  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: want to take over Iron Horse? o_O
19:37:09  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i have not (yet) coded a docs generator
19:37:11  <andythenorth> PM Dan?
19:37:14  <Bad_Brett> might be a problem with the sprite cache
19:38:12  <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: well if there was no problem with the movement substeps, there won't be a problem with this either :)
19:38:22  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: if you worked with Dan you'd actually get some sprites supplied ;)
19:38:59  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't think i can get anything done in the near future
19:39:34  <andythenorth>  you've got support for vehicle generations (epochs?)
19:40:15  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so either you take CETS as-is (there are a few configuration parameters you can tweak) and provide your own tracking table and sprites, or you let it be
19:40:24  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, i have support for that
19:40:58  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I'll let in be :)
19:41:15  <andythenorth> thanks for the CETS offer, but a good part of this is that it helps me do my job if I write code often
19:41:34  <andythenorth> it helps me work with programmers
19:42:55  <Supercheese> You can (ab)use the global animation counter for animations
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19:45:25  <Eddi|zuHause> NOOO, orudge killed the forum :p
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19:49:31  <juzza1> why multiple parts for vehicles with 1-8 visual length?
19:49:53  <Bad_Brett> more turning angles :-)
19:51:40  <orudge> Eddi|zuHause: now unkilled
19:52:02  <Bad_Brett> thank god
19:52:08  <Bad_Brett> ehm... orudge
19:52:16  <andythenorth> meh
19:52:16  <andythenorth> so if graphics need to be on part #3 or #4 or whatever
19:52:22  <andythenorth> I could just use a different vehicle id for that
19:52:37  * andythenorth is thinking aloud
19:53:16  <andythenorth> I can switch graphics based on numeric id of leading part, right?
19:54:19  <Eddi|zuHause> can you rephrase that?
19:55:02  <andythenorth> I can write a switch for a trailing part of an articulated consist, which checks the numeric id of the leading part as the var?
19:55:06  * andythenorth looks in docs
19:55:26  <juzza1> Bad_Brett: i see, very naughty... but clever too :D
19:55:28  <andythenorth> count_veh_id would do it
19:55:38  <andythenorth> or vehicle_type_id
19:55:56  <Bad_Brett> juzza1: yeah, it was eddi who taught me the trick... that bastard
19:55:57  <Eddi|zuHause> something like that
19:56:20  <Bad_Brett> my life is ruined now :-)
19:56:37  <andythenorth> meh, my idea won't work without some hideous shuffling around of code at compile time :P
19:56:38  <andythenorth> nvm
19:56:38  <juzza1> yeah. i've tested cets, but didn't realize at the time what was happening
19:56:43  <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: i stole that idea from other people :)
19:56:52  <Bad_Brett> ...those bastards :-)
19:57:37  <andythenorth> what is the fascination with longer vehicles anyway?
19:57:43  <Eddi|zuHause> partially influenced by MB and George
19:58:16  <andythenorth> 8/8 is enough, surely :X
19:58:38  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: passenger vehicles are really long, which makes the game vehicles look rather toy-ish
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19:59:14  <andythenorth> I like that :)
19:59:32  <andythenorth> but I don't mind longer either :P
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20:04:50  <andythenorth> I thought I'd found a cunning hack to avoid using more ids
20:04:53  <andythenorth> but nvm
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20:07:05  <Eddi|zuHause> just make sure the IDs are <8192
20:07:09  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: presumably somewhere you generate a 'consist' or something - a list of all the sub-parts comprising a vehicle?
20:07:17  <andythenorth> and then you repeat over that in your template?
20:07:53  <andythenorth> e.g. a tender locomotive will be made up of 3 + 3 parts
20:08:06  <Eddi|zuHause> yes-ish
20:08:19  <LordAro> urgh, train stuff in #openttd
20:08:30  <Eddi|zuHause> the locomotive has a "attach tender" entry in the tracking table
20:08:42  <Eddi|zuHause> and the tender has a flag that it's not a buildable vehicle
20:08:52  <andythenorth> any idea which file? :)
20:08:59  *** gyutyuglf [gyutyuglf@86.126.58.151] has quit []
20:09:07  <andythenorth> my train is nearly arrived, but I can read your methods later
20:09:39  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: most likely processing.py and write_engine.py, look for "artic"
20:10:23  <andythenorth> ok ta
20:10:52  <andythenorth> good night
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20:14:17  <frosch123> night
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20:26:14  <peter1139> I'd forgotten how long Lift Yr Skinny Fists Like Antennas To Heaven was.
20:26:15  *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B32C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:26:17  <peter1139> And not just the title.
20:26:34  <peter1139> 1h27 albumem...
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20:43:18  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: am I reading your templating correctly?  Do you also use c-pre-processor? (I am seeing #define - I didn't look into the makefile though)
20:44:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i use everything you can think of :)
20:44:44  <Eddi|zuHause> python, c-preprocessor, nmlc, grfcodec, shellscript, makefile
20:44:51  <andythenorth> sounds like FIRS :P
20:45:04  <andythenorth> kitchen sink compile stack :P
20:45:10  <Eddi|zuHause> not necessarily in this order
20:45:21  <andythenorth> so now I have to expand your CPP stuff in my head :)
20:45:40  <Eddi|zuHause> well you can just run it :)
20:45:52  <Eddi|zuHause> it will keep intermediate files for each engine
20:46:34  * andythenorth looks for 'articulation'
20:46:41  <andythenorth> I am guessing that's a list or similar
20:47:13  <andythenorth> oh yeah, found it
20:47:27  <Belugas> Card Processing Payment?
20:47:32  <andythenorth> :P
20:47:38  <Eddi|zuHause> you can try https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/4058/EP5.tar.gz
20:47:43  <andythenorth> ok, so the basic pattern you've used is about same as I've arrived at
20:47:51  <andythenorth> I'm probably going to steal some of that
20:48:19  <andythenorth> particularly I couldn't be bothered to figure out how to track the offset
20:49:01  <andythenorth> in what cases would "artic_ident = 'custom'" ?
20:49:33  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a remnant from when the pattern wasn't so flexible yet
20:49:54  <andythenorth> oh the pattern stuff is quite neat
20:50:06  <andythenorth> I am reading processing.py
20:50:08  <Eddi|zuHause> the earlier version could only do "A - n*B - C"
20:50:23  <Eddi|zuHause> so a "A-B-C-D-E" train had to use custom
20:51:09  <Eddi|zuHause> "custom" basically means "i manually type in the articulated callback"
20:51:20  <andythenorth> so the parts you define with the patterns....
20:51:32  <andythenorth> are those 'real' parts, or pseudo (invisible) parts?
20:51:43  <Eddi|zuHause> those are real parts
20:51:45  <andythenorth> yeah
20:51:49  <andythenorth> that makes sense
20:51:51  <andythenorth> ok
20:51:57  <Eddi|zuHause> the pseudo-parts are strictly taken from the length table
20:52:19  <Eddi|zuHause> and IDs calculated by a fixed scheme
20:52:29  <Eddi|zuHause> X, X+2000 and X+4000 or so
20:52:57  <Eddi|zuHause> that allows for 2000 vehicles in total :)
20:53:51  <Eddi|zuHause> the "offset" can be larger, but must make sure that you don't exceed 8192, as the articulated callback has that limit
20:53:54  <andythenorth> hmm
20:54:13  <andythenorth> so I need to find the code that handles pseudo-parts
20:54:20  <andythenorth> defining the visible parts I have covered already :)
20:54:47  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if "artic" doesn't bring you further, then try "slice"
20:55:47  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you're interested in sprite offsets, look at write.py and search for template
20:56:06  <Eddi|zuHause> and in helper.py i think
20:58:20  <andythenorth> so you consume a new ID for each part of each vehicle?
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21:05:13  <andythenorth> barf
21:05:31  * andythenorth has to rebuild templating
21:05:50  <V453000> :D
21:08:00  <andythenorth> trains basically present complications
21:08:08  <andythenorth> ships and RVs do not have these problems :P
21:08:49  <V453000> that doesnt make sense!
21:09:08  <V453000> there can only be bad code, trains are awesome by default :P
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21:11:15  <andythenorth> must be bad code
21:12:40  <Alberth> bad brain alignment with the problem at hand :)
21:15:42  <andythenorth> with RVs there is simply no case (in the ones I've written) for a vehicle to be used as both lead part and articulated trailing part
21:16:04  <andythenorth> whereas trains do that crap
21:16:28  <andythenorth> which is 20 kinds of complicated
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21:18:16  <V453000> templating ftw? XD
21:18:54  <andythenorth> meh
21:19:10  <andythenorth> I have to start special casing everything
21:19:13  <andythenorth> it's basically shit :)
21:19:52  <V453000> XD
21:20:03  <V453000> isnt it easier to simply code it directly in nml? XD
21:21:18  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~flex@i59F6C889.versanet.de] has joined #openttd
21:21:36  <ST2> well, a random message... good to display here: <ttd-srv12A> REX (Spectator): I love OPENTTD!!!
21:21:40  <ST2> :)
21:22:18  <andythenorth> V453000: dunno, do you want to try? o_O
21:22:32  <andythenorth> it's easier, but craploads slower
21:22:53  <andythenorth> copy-paste, find-replace :P
21:22:54  <andythenorth> repeat
21:22:56  <andythenorth> until dead
21:23:14  <V453000> I certainly dont want to randomly code things I didnt draw :)
21:23:18  <V453000> coding is just slave labour to me
21:23:40  <V453000> obvioutly it is fun if it makes things work, but I try to limit coding to minimum :P
21:24:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i do, too, that's why i do code generators :p
21:25:27  <V453000> lol :)
21:25:42  <V453000> well yeah but nobody is going to draw 600 engines either :P
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21:27:57  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:38:25  <andythenorth> so where is var 61 in nml?
21:38:29  * andythenorth reads nml code
21:40:25  <andythenorth> can't see it
21:44:32  <Rubidium> var 61 of what? industries?
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21:45:56  <andythenorth> trains
21:46:08  <andythenorth> trains / vehicles /s
21:50:09  <Rubidium> can't find it either, though you could possibly use the deprecated thing
21:50:25  <andythenorth> hmm
21:50:29  <andythenorth> problem for tomorrow I guess :)
21:50:30  <Rubidium> or... do all variables have an optional parameter for the offset (which is how I would implement it)
21:50:36  <andythenorth> oh
21:51:19  <andythenorth> hmm, dunno :)
21:51:34  <andythenorth> that would be a nice implementation
21:51:41  <andythenorth> anyway, bed <- andythenorth
21:51:47  <andythenorth> good night
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22:10:14  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i always used var[0x61,...]
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