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Log for #openttd on 10th October 2013:
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05:43:36  <dihedral> morning
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08:31:07  <planetmaker> moin
08:31:37  <Taede> moin
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08:32:46  <planetmaker> hey :-) How's life?
08:32:57  <Taede> not too shabby
08:33:09  <Taede> cold, but sunny outside
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10:36:35  <bon> hi
10:37:33  <__ln__> jour, bon
10:38:04  <bon> how're you ln?
10:38:32  <__ln__> i'm operating within normal parametres
10:39:59  <bon> heh
10:40:07  <bon> up to anything yet?
10:44:28  <peter1139> *parameters
10:44:49  <__ln__> peter1139: you're american now?
10:44:58  <peter1139> No, it's just how parameters is spelled.
10:45:25  <__ln__> oh, sad.
10:47:21  <bon> I still haven't found any suggestion online if you two don't mind me asking again: is there a length limit to locomotive sprites?
10:48:22  <peter1139> Yes there is.
10:50:51  <bon> nomially roughly how far would you go before you should break it into sections?
10:52:40  <peter1139> If it's longer than 8 in-game units, then it needs to be split.
10:53:02  <peter1139> Which is the regular vehicle length.
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10:54:54  <bon> 8...mm ok I understand now thanks
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11:08:34  <bon> is there an overview of the variable runcosts or I'll just have to check different individual newgrf pages to figure out how it works?
11:09:17  <juzza1> nfo or nml?
11:09:44  <juzza1> or do you mean how it actually works ingame
11:10:31  <bon> nfo
11:11:28  <planetmaker> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Main_Page is the specs wiki
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13:07:04  <roboboy> According to http://wiki.openttd.org/Commit_style, would a comment update/fix be a "Doc" commit?
13:07:22  <roboboy> I would think so
13:08:36  <planetmaker> could be either or. Whatever feels more appropriate
13:12:20  <planetmaker> probably with a tendency towards "-Doc: Descriptions for some station GUI functions was insufficient"
13:16:20  <roboboy> aha
13:16:50  * roboboy should go to bed now
13:17:13  <roboboy> gnight
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13:22:01  <planetmaker> g'night roboboy
13:24:16  <Belugas> hello
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13:39:58  <bon> hi belugas
13:41:09  <V453000> something like 10 is still feasible bon :)
13:41:16  <V453000> just test it :)
13:42:30  <bon> v453000 heh. I was just wondering about how to draw a few particular locomotives I needed that had long chassis
13:43:02  <bon> one similar example is the PRR GG1 .. I'm thinking that thing probably would had been split in the middle in a grf
13:43:59  <bon> how're you anyway?
13:44:13  <Belugas> bonjour bon
13:44:21  <Eddi|zuHause> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/entry/src/gfx/pruss/EG538_9_pruss_8bpp_normal.png
13:44:34  <Eddi|zuHause> if you worry about longer sprites :)
13:47:11  <Eddi|zuHause> (WARNING: lots of magic!)
13:47:14  <bon> mm that is a bit long
13:47:27  <bon> whats the extra angles for tho?
13:47:31  <Eddi|zuHause> that is the length of 9
13:48:55  <Eddi|zuHause> the extra angles are for that things like https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/entry/src/gfx/template_16_8bpp_normal.png don't stick out of the tracks so far
13:51:17  <bon> hmm so its going farther than overhanging the curve then abruptly turn 45 degree with nothing inbetween?
13:52:21  <V453000> yeah but who would like to draw that many sprites :)
13:53:15  <V453000> what is that, 24 views instead of 8?
13:53:20  <V453000> that is insane amount of sprite work
13:53:34  <Eddi|zuHause> it's "just" triple :)
13:53:35  <V453000> would probably make sense to do it with rendered images though
13:54:04  <V453000> nuts already has barely bearable amount of sprites with just 8 views per vehicle, I cant imagine doing it x3
13:55:08  <bon> heh I'm with you v453000 :)
13:55:34  <V453000> anyway, for the longer sprites, just try things out and see what glitches (too much) for you
13:55:51  <bon> yeah I'll probably be getting to the small things first so that may take a while ^_^
13:55:57  <V453000> obviously 8/8 is safest
13:56:13  <V453000> yarr
13:56:17  <bon> at least I could think of angled tunnel portals and maybe train sheds but otherwise like you said I guess
14:01:58  <Eddi|zuHause> concerning airdrag for wagons: a new vehicle property "additional_air_drag" with a range of 0..1?
14:02:30  <Eddi|zuHause> value will be summed up for all wagons and cached in the front engine
14:03:21  <Eddi|zuHause> that makes it possible to model streamlined high speed trains which reduce the air drag at the gaps between wagons
14:03:37  <Eddi|zuHause> and for dummy articulated parts like in CETS you just set it to 0
14:05:26  <bon> v453000 there is one other thing tho. can powered wagons accept any kind of negative values or theres a limit to this?
14:06:10  <V453000> like power -X ?
14:06:12  <planetmaker> negative power?!
14:06:14  <V453000> only +x XD
14:06:22  <V453000> why would you have negative power
14:06:27  <Eddi|zuHause> don't use powered wagons...
14:07:52  <V453000> powered wagons alone are ok? :d
14:08:01  <V453000> the livery override is a bit wtf but well
14:08:45  <Eddi|zuHause> the whole thing smells of "we hack this into TTDPatch because we can't do it fully flexible (yet)"
14:10:10  <bon> v453000 heh was just wondering about reenacting steam heating n diesel slug without having to duplicate things in the buy list. but this is just a note now tho, still waiting to see what friend thinks
14:10:20  <planetmaker> what is 'fully flexible' in this context, Eddi|zuHause ? :-)
14:10:53  <V453000> ._.
14:11:05  <V453000> slugs live =D
14:11:05  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: like, varaction2 that checks the front vehicle, or putting engines behind other engines
14:11:21  <bon> v453000 I meant actual slug units...not slug aka animals :->
14:11:40  <bon> thats what usa call them, I still don't know what the term would be outside north america (if there were any)
14:12:49  <bon> http://www.nsdash9.com/images/NS850k.jpg heres a quick example fyi
14:13:05  <V453000> pfft
14:13:16  <V453000> not interested then!
14:14:01  <bon> v453000 well it was a cheap way to get more traction at the con of much lower top speed and more
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14:16:18  <bon> v453000 whether you had any interest or not this is a different type: http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/IC1350.JPG to sum it up the two units are the same powered things but they omit one cab to save a bit of cost
14:16:41  <bon> don't ask me why but they call these cow-calf .. then again the calf always follows its mother! :)
14:17:37  <V453000> LOL
14:18:09  <V453000> well the question is if you want them to be purchaseable as two (would be very wtf imo) or one engine
14:18:52  <bon> v453000 well what you would do for an usa set I imagine is to just have one single vehicle with two ids...
14:19:11  <bon> first unit bought is the default cab unit .. but a second one added to it changes to the cabless sprite
14:19:13  <V453000> define usa
14:19:16  <V453000> has no meaning for a game
14:19:49  <bon> (then again I think pikka already did the same thing to NARS .. cue the EMD F units changing sprites depending on multi-loco consists
14:20:02  <V453000> yes something like that happens there indeed
14:20:12  <V453000> its nice.
14:20:38  <V453000> I personally think that is the best way to do it, just visually, no extra train IDs
14:20:56  <bon> mm..thanks re the sprite length thing btw. I kinda need to go out for a while now tho
14:21:06  <bon> and yeah no extra ids I agree...anyway bye till another time :p
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14:23:27  <Belugas> cool... saving before compiling... saved not only the sruoce code but my nerves as well :)
14:23:33  <peter1138> :D
14:23:42  <Belugas> since.. compiler crashed!
14:23:46  <peter1138> !
14:23:49  <V453000> :)
14:25:15  <Belugas> Delphi4 has sometimes this habit of unexpectendly just.. vanish
14:25:27  <Belugas> yeah, i know... it's DElphi and it's 4 and it's old...
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16:13:44  <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, why don't we put the version string in the savegame and display it on load error?
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16:22:01  <peter1138> Make a patch.
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16:37:02  <Eddi|zuHause> that's not what you usually say :p
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16:47:49  <Belugas> nope, he wold say : i ha(ve)d a patch for that ;)
16:49:26  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I see no reason that can't/shouldn't be done
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17:41:28  <Wolf01> hello
17:42:13  <Alberth> hello Wolf01
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18:16:31  <tigeroo> Hello all
18:21:28  <Alberth> hi hi
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18:31:42  <andythenorth> o/
18:32:00  <V453000> not o/
18:33:16  <Alberth> \o
18:45:28  <tigeroo> hello again
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19:22:37  <Alberth> V453000:   http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/nuts_curly_bracket.png   you know about that yellow curly bracket ?
19:22:55  <V453000> yeah got reported just today :)
19:22:56  <V453000> but thanks
19:23:36  <Alberth> the famous "I get two of the same bug reports shortly after each other" hits again :)
19:23:42  <V453000> [is already fixed, coming in 0.6.1]
19:23:46  <V453000> indeed
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19:29:14  <Thurak> whats a resonable starting date if i want to have a long game
19:29:32  <Thurak> but i dont want to be in the stone age either
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19:31:59  <V453000> 1920
19:33:21  <Thurak> ok ill try tha
19:33:22  <Thurak> that*
19:33:47  <V453000> you will need newGRFs which support "long game" obviously
19:33:49  <V453000> e.g. NUTS
19:34:00  <V453000> 1920-2100
19:34:43  <Thurak> ive got the hover vehicles
19:34:52  <Thurak> i think they are introduced around 2080, give or take
19:35:17  <Thurak> also some planes which i think are spread out across all timeframes, and vacuum railways
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19:45:25  <andythenorth> ho ho
19:45:36  <andythenorth> newgrf tech forum has some interesting threads today :)
19:45:39  * andythenorth likes interesting
19:54:16  <Supercheese> more air drag shenanigans
19:59:09  <Thurak> when do you get the first thing that has a helipad
20:00:18  <Supercheese> http://wiki.openttd.org/Airports#Heliport
20:00:23  <Supercheese> 1963, with no newgrfs
20:01:07  <Thurak> ah, i was a bit confused as the wiki says the first helicopter is 1957, and im at 1958 with no helipad
20:01:37  <Supercheese> Newgrfs can change that, e.g. Opengfx+ Airports has an option to enable all airports regardless of current date
20:03:10  <Thurak> think ive got that one, tho i havent touched options
20:07:05  <andythenorth> newgrfs can change airport date? o_O
20:07:35  <Supercheese> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Airports#Airport_properties
20:07:39  <Supercheese> years_available 	[start year, last year]
20:08:02  <Supercheese> I should know, I contributed that patch to OGFX+ airports ;)
20:08:11  <andythenorth> hmm
20:08:14  <andythenorth> that is interesting
20:08:19  <andythenorth> airport dates bug me
20:08:27  <Supercheese> They bugged me as well
20:08:35  <Supercheese> enough I wrote a grf to fix it
20:08:49  <andythenorth> with AV8, I want to use a much greater range of airports, and rely on the newgrf design to make planes interesting
20:08:51  <Supercheese> but then I merged it with OGFX+, to save a grf slot
20:09:15  <Supercheese> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=56780#p972474
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20:27:49  <Thurak> setting up railways annoys me..
20:27:54  <Thurak> so many things get in the way
20:28:12  <frosch123> like other rails? :p
20:28:21  <Thurak> yeah
20:28:35  <Thurak> and i need to lay down 2 tracks
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20:38:34  <V453000> lol
20:46:26  <Thurak> are Av8 airships any good to use?
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20:59:55  <frosch123> night
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21:17:46  <andythenorth> hmm
21:17:52  <andythenorth> don't understand my own code :)
21:18:56  <Supercheese> Thurak: Av8 airships are great
21:19:07  <__ln__> http://www.hs.fi/kuukausiliite/This+is+how+a+Helsingin+Sanomat+journalist+tried+to+save+Nokia/a1381288411564
21:20:50  <Thurak> which ones are great? zeppelin is making me a loss atm
21:22:00  <andythenorth> hmm
21:22:04  <andythenorth> why isn't this recursing?
21:22:13  <andythenorth> I should have an unpleasant loop running
21:22:27  <andythenorth> my code should be buggy but isn't :P
21:22:32  <andythenorth> this is disturbing
21:23:23  <Thurak> should be buggy but isnt?
21:23:27  <Thurak> thats a rare thing to hear
21:23:49  <Supercheese> Thurak: planespeed modifier set to 1/1?
21:23:56  <Supercheese> If it's set lower, they won't turn profits
21:24:14  <Thurak> i havent touched settings like that
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21:24:43  <Supercheese> Advanced Settings -> Vehicles -> Plane speed factor
21:25:23  <andythenorth> grr
21:25:30  <Supercheese> Av8 should throw a warning if that setting is not 1/1
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21:26:08  <andythenorth> oh well
21:26:24  <Thurak> i dont see that option
21:26:41  <Thurak> ah, found it
21:26:43  <andythenorth>  by analysis my code is broken, but it works empriically :P
21:26:53  <Thurak> had to set it to advanced settings at the top
21:26:55  <Thurak> its 1/4
21:27:09  <Supercheese> Yeah, bump that to 1/1
21:27:19  <Supercheese> then your airships will be better :)
21:27:32  <andythenorth> hmm
21:27:32  <Thurak> the game says default should be 1/4...
21:27:40  <Supercheese> Av8 says it should be 1/1
21:27:41  <Thurak> is Av8 balanced around 1/1 then?
21:27:44  <Supercheese> yes
21:27:47  <andythenorth> by analysis, andythenorth is not broken, but is empirically
21:27:48  <Thurak> ok then
21:28:00  <Thurak> right, time to not suck then
21:28:02  <Thurak> maybe
21:28:16  <Supercheese> IIRC, airships have a more favorable cargo aging factor
21:28:36  <Supercheese> to account for the luxurious travel compared to other early aircraft
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21:32:28  <Supercheese> Too bad there are no more rigid airships
21:32:41  <Supercheese> would be better than cruise shis
21:32:42  <Supercheese> ships*
21:32:51  <Thurak> rigid airships?
21:33:05  <Supercheese> like the Hindenburg, Graf Zeppelin, et al.
21:34:35  <Thurak> oh you mean IRL
21:34:38  <Supercheese> yeah
21:35:10  <Supercheese> There's one company building a new airship, I hope it'll be commercially successful
21:35:20  <Thurak> whats good about rigid
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21:35:44  <Supercheese> they can be larger, have more interior passenger space
21:36:29  <Thurak> ah right
21:36:35  <Supercheese> Anyway: http://aeroscraft.com/news/4575673978
21:38:04  <Thurak> when would it be a good idea to use a train
21:38:10  <Thurak> instead of trucks or planes
21:39:01  <Supercheese> I like how the Aeros company promises a 500 ton payload, although I have my doubts about that
21:39:10  <__ln__> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/11/us/scott-carpenter-mercury-astronaut-who-orbited-earth-dies-at-88.html
21:40:46  <Thurak> surely carrying a 500 ton payload into air is easy, doing it at a realistic price is the problem
21:40:58  <Supercheese> and with a reasonable operating range
21:41:12  <Supercheese> I have faith in their engineers though
21:41:39  <Thurak> well operating range isnt a problem, just adds yet more to the price :P
21:42:09  <Thurak> hmm.. making a profit, but its very tiny
21:42:20  <Thurak> £1200 per trip, and its costing me something like £1000 per trip
21:42:25  <Supercheese> Yeah, everything does boil down to economy. Unfortunately, they have large government funding, and, well, our government isn't doing so well at the moment
21:42:35  <Supercheese> (to put it mildly)
21:43:03  <Thurak> another way of putting it, is that im richer than quite a few contries, because i have £10 on my desk
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21:43:53  <Supercheese> make sure you have full loads in your airships
21:44:04  <Thurak> it is
21:44:05  <Supercheese> they won't turn a profit half-empty, or even 3/4
21:44:08  <Supercheese> hmm
21:44:15  <Supercheese> longer ranges are also helpful
21:44:16  <Thurak> full load any cargo set on both ends
21:44:23  <Thurak> ah right
21:44:30  <Supercheese> short hops are problematic, because they spend a terribly long time circling before landing
21:44:30  <Thurak> its going... about 100 tiles
21:44:36  <Thurak> yeah
21:44:40  <Supercheese> very poor landing pattern
21:45:12  <Supercheese> airships have very long range, use that to your advantage :)
21:46:01  <Thurak> thats better, £9200 gained from a trip
21:46:21  <Supercheese> :D
21:46:22  <Thurak> would be nice if there was a tool to measure distance
21:46:26  <Thurak> or if there is i dont know what it is
21:47:04  <Supercheese> I think under the ? menu
21:47:08  <Supercheese> there should be measurement tool
21:47:26  <Supercheese> hmm perhaps not
21:47:52  <Thurak> the airships are very expensive to buy
21:48:02  <Thurak> £90k
21:48:27  <Supercheese> indeed, they are not cheap
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21:49:04  <Supercheese> @revision 6758
21:49:09  <Supercheese> ehm
21:49:15  <Supercheese> @commit 6758
21:49:15  <DorpsGek> Supercheese: Commit by Darkvater :: r6758 /trunk (8 files in 2 dirs) (2006-10-12 15:13:40 UTC)
21:49:16  <DorpsGek> Supercheese: -Feature: Add a measurement tool that will show dimensions and height
21:49:17  <DorpsGek> Supercheese:  differences of various draggable tools (inspiration, concept and double
21:49:18  <DorpsGek> Supercheese:  checking by MeusH).
21:49:27  <Supercheese> Well, where is it
21:49:53  <Supercheese> I know rail/road construction has it
21:50:15  <__ln__> @seen Darkvater
21:50:15  <DorpsGek> __ln__: Darkvater was last seen in #openttd 3 years, 25 weeks, 4 days, 10 hours, 12 minutes, and 11 seconds ago: <Darkvater> good ol' days :)
21:51:03  <Supercheese> Aww, his last post should have been "Nooooooo"
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22:21:48  <Wolf01> 'night all
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22:27:22  <Supercheese> Huh, interesting, since we were talking about airships: http://www.airships.net/blog/uk-readers-hindenburg-documentary-uktv-tomorrow-night?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Airships+%28Airships%3A+A+Zeppelin+History+Site%29
22:27:30  <Supercheese> pardon the long link
22:27:37  <Thurak> ... no airships available anymore and now my airports useless
22:28:11  <Supercheese> airships should expire until after the 1950s
22:28:14  <Supercheese> shouldn't
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