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Log for #openttd on 16th November 2013:
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00:23:16  *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit []
00:25:07  <Vadtec> i remember someone working on something similar to cargodist a few months ago, has it gone anywhere? or is it still a mod of the base game?
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00:34:42  <krinn> i don't know the one you speak of, but i don't think any others patch that handle cargo distribution will be include as cargodist has been add. I'm not saying it won't be added, but with cargodist i suppose openttd devs choose to support one, supporting multi-features that would do similar things looks a bit silly
00:36:47  <Vadtec> i dont really remember what it was
00:37:08  <Vadtec> i thought someone was working on adding it to openttd as a core feature
00:37:30  <Vadtec> but so far all im finding is the cargodist builds
00:37:37  <krinn> it propabably never happen : keep in mind it's what i think, i'm not ottd dev
00:38:35  <krinn> but now that cargodist is within, if i were other cargo dist like patch maker i would : 1/ don't gives a shit and keep doing my own patch 2/ produce patch to cargodist that add the feature my previous patch have, as this time, this might get included
00:39:25  <Vadtec> when you say "within" do you mean it can be enabled in stock openttd or that you still have to download the cargodist releases?
00:39:37  <krinn> a bit like : now a roof was add, keep doing your own house or add stones to the existing base
00:39:44  <krinn> i mean within
00:39:56  <Vadtec> because ive looked in stock openttd and havent seen any option to enable it
00:40:07  <krinn> in advance settings i have it
00:40:22  <krinn> it have its own settings : cargo distribution
00:40:23  <Vadtec> hrm
00:40:28  * Vadtec checks again
00:41:04  <Vadtec> is it in its own category or undersomething?
00:41:08  <Vadtec> or am i just blind?
00:41:24  <krinn> have its own section in the root of adv settings
00:41:49  * Vadtec reinstalls
00:41:50  <krinn> after economy and before competitors in my openttd
00:42:19  <krinn> but it's trunk version
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00:43:11  <Vadtec> ah
00:43:23  <Vadtec> i take it the download you get from the main website isnt trunk
00:43:25  <Vadtec> go figure
00:43:52  <krinn> there's nightliies you can download
00:44:03  <krinn> http://www.openttd.org/en/download-trunk
00:44:09  <Vadtec> right
00:44:19  <Vadtec> was just going there
00:44:35  <krinn> i suppose cargodist is going its way for 1.3.3
00:45:48  <krinn> couldn't find changelog ref to when cargodist was add, but last line : -Fix [FS#5796]: Make sure LinkRefresher doesn't delete the LinkGraph DeleteStaleLinks() is examining.
00:45:56  <krinn> linkgraph looks like a cargodist need
00:46:28  <Vadtec> well like i said
00:46:40  <Vadtec> i *thought* someone was adding it to the core game
00:46:45  <Vadtec> but i only caught it in passing
00:46:50  <Vadtec> so i could be entirely mistaken
00:48:18  <krinn> cannot find update roadmap, but as option exists, might be for 1.3.3 but i don't know their plans :)
00:48:25  <Vadtec> and now that i have a nightly build, it seems to be working
00:48:28  <Vadtec> *sigh*
00:48:33  <Vadtec> oh well
00:48:35  <Vadtec> time to play!
00:48:37  <krinn> (those dawn cylons never tell their plans)
00:48:46  <glx> <krinn> i suppose cargodist is going its way for 1.3.3 <-- I'm sure it won't ;)
00:49:29  <glx> but it will be in 1.4.0
00:49:38  <krinn> i generally do bad guess, must be why i fail at loto that much
00:51:59  <Vadtec> glx: where does it say it will be in 1.4? ive been looking and cant seem to find that anywhere
00:52:22  <glx> it's in trunk and trunk will be 1.4
00:52:35  <krinn> (glx is a cylon also)
00:53:12  <glx> it would be silly to backport a huge feature to 1.3 branch
00:53:37  <krinn> http://wiki.openttd.org/Passenger_and_cargo_distribution <-- look at this one vadtec
00:53:49  <Vadtec> krinn: been there
00:54:25  <krinn> Since June 2013 Cargodist is included in trunk.
00:54:43  <Vadtec> right, but i never saw where it said trunk is 1.4
00:54:47  <Vadtec> anyways
00:54:50  <Vadtec> im off to play
00:54:57  <Vadtec> thanks for the info
00:55:22  <krinn> have a nice one
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01:00:45  <glx> just check version info in trunk exe properties ;)
01:05:30  <glx> it should say 1.4.0.26004 for today's nightly
01:08:02  <krinn> i don't see where you get that, not from openttd.org download page or i'm blind
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01:31:15  <glx> rigth click on openttd.exe
01:32:35  <krinn> hmmm, i'm not able to do that
01:33:12  <Supercheese> ?
01:33:34  <glx> it's only for windows version
01:35:24  <krinn> i could tell you shared libs i use and their version easy :)
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01:39:04  <glx> else check rev.cpp.in (_openttd_newgrf_version)
01:39:25  <glx> const uint32 _openttd_newgrf_version = 1 << 28 | 4 << 24 | 0 << 20 | 0 << 19 | (!!REVISION!! & ((1 << 19) - 1));
01:40:32  <krinn> ok ok i could lives without knowing :)
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08:46:47  <Terkhen> good morning
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09:17:23  <Alberth> o/
09:23:57  <LordAro> /o
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09:49:19  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26006 /trunk/src (lang/english.txt strings.cpp) (2013-11-16 09:49:13 UTC)
09:49:20  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5804]: Game script showing vehicle on a story book, then the vehicle being removed and eventually being replaced by a non-user vehicle (most likely smoke) causing an assertion to trigger
09:54:28  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26007 trunk/src/strings.cpp (2013-11-16 09:54:22 UTC)
09:54:29  <DorpsGek> -Change: make handling strings coming from game scripts slightly more lenient, i.e. less 'fatal error... must quit'
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10:04:16  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26008 trunk/src/fileio.cpp (2013-11-16 10:04:10 UTC)
10:04:17  <DorpsGek> -Fix (r25975): uninitialised warning
10:06:03  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26009 trunk/src/video/win32_v.cpp (2013-11-16 10:05:57 UTC)
10:06:04  <DorpsGek> -Fix: warning about conditional expression with enumeral with non-enumeral type
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10:34:20  <Wolf01> hi hi
10:38:22  <Rubidium> so, still nobody with 64 bit Windows XP?
10:40:35  <LordAro> Rubidium: ask on the forums?
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10:42:27  <LordAro> /o Zuu
10:42:35  <Zuu> Hello
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11:49:59  <krinn> hello
11:51:21  <LordAro> /o krinn
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12:04:45  <zydeco> how long does it take for planes to crash when there are no airports?
12:14:37  <Taede> as soon as the station-sign of the last airport dissappears, or when there are no airports and the orders get removed from the aircraft
12:14:46  <Taede> ^ just did a quick test
12:15:01  <zydeco> but if I have a helidepot, they won't crash
12:15:05  <zydeco> even though they can't land there
12:15:48  <Taede> i think as long as they have orders to go to a valid station they keep flying, wether or not the station accepts aircraft
12:16:05  <Taede> trying it with truckdepot attached now
12:17:27  <krinn> hmmm, you know building an airport and selling the aircraft should cost less money then having it crash? I didn't count, but i'm pretty sure letting crash will cost you more money than building airport to let it land
12:18:38  <Taede> yeah, seems to just circle indefinetly
12:19:06  <Taede> so as long the aircraft has a valid order to an existing station (even if it is just the sign left) it will keep circling
12:19:21  <Taede> probably intentional, allowing you to replace the airport without them all falling out of the sky
12:20:06  <zydeco> still, if they have no orders and you have a helidepot with a hangar they can't land in, they still won't crash
12:20:31  <zydeco> because the "go to depot order" takes it to that hangar, but then it realises it can't land so it circles around it
12:22:06  <zydeco> maybe FindNearestHangar shouldn't find a hangar in a helidepot when called from a plane
12:22:22  <Taede> so they circle indefinitely as long as they have a sliver of hope they can land somewhere, (order or available airport, compatible or not). Otherwise, crash with utmost haste
12:24:27  <zydeco> well I'll be back later
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12:25:57  <krinn> propably need to open a bug to allow put a sign named "hudson" on water to let plane land ?
12:27:38  <krinn> i'm not sure was he aiming at making his plane crash ?
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12:28:54  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it was an emergency landing
12:29:28  <krinn> :) not the hudson guy, i was speaking about zydeco
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12:33:51  <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r26010 /trunk/src/script/api (script_controller.hpp script_info_docs.hpp) (2013-11-16 12:33:45 UTC)
12:33:52  <DorpsGek> -Document [FS#5662]: The AI/GS library name to use in Import, is not the name given by GetName but GetInstanceName
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12:50:13  <rknol> hello friends
12:50:25  <rknol> i want to compile openttd on freebsd 9.2
12:50:35  <rknol> but it keeps complaining about not being able to find liblzma
12:51:03  <rknol> and if i pass the liblzma.a manually with --with-liblzma=[path]
12:51:06  <rknol> it tells me
12:51:38  <rknol> configure: error: you supplied '/usr/local/lib/liblzma.a', but it seems invalid
12:51:48  <rknol> so who's got a clue for me!
12:52:37  <krinn> point to the .so and not the .a
12:52:46  <rknol> okay
12:52:55  <rknol> the ./configure --help told me to point to the .a :p
12:53:22  <rknol> --with-liblzma[=liblzma.a]     enables liblzma support
12:53:25  <rknol> gonna try it though, hold on
12:53:27  <krinn> well, in my distri, nearly all .a were removed, glad it don't really need .a
12:53:58  <rknol> nope, no go: configure: error: you supplied '/usr/local/lib/liblzma.so', but it seems invalid
12:54:46  <krinn> and you check /usr/local/lib got it ?
12:55:03  <rknol> yeah
12:56:26  <rknol> it's properly linked as well:
12:56:33  <rknol> root@stoofpeer:~/build/openttd-1.3.2 # ldd /usr/local/lib/liblzma.so /usr/local/lib/liblzma.so: 	libstdc++.so.6 => /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6 (0x801239000) 	libm.so.5 => /lib/libm.so.5 (0x80154f000) 	libc.so.7 => /lib/libc.so.7 (0x80081b000) 	libgcc_s.so.1 => /lib/libgcc_s.so.1 (0x801770000)
12:58:40  <krinn> i dunno then
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13:01:53  <rknol> :(
13:02:20  <krinn> detecting lzma is done by pkgconfig
13:02:45  <krinn> got the pahtopkgconfig/liblzma.pc ?
13:02:51  <Rubidium> http://rbijker.net/openttd/lzma.a-issue.diff ought to fix the "problem" (being the badly copy-pasted help text)
13:03:30  <rknol> oh yes
13:03:32  <rknol> i remember this
13:03:39  <rknol> gonna give it a shot, hold on
13:05:10  <rknol> the patch won't work anymore but i'll fix it manually
13:06:08  <Rubidium> the patch doesn't do anything besides changing the output of configure --help
13:07:24  <rknol> okay so
13:07:33  <rknol> configure: error: pkg-config liblzma couldn't be found
13:07:34  <rknol> configure: error: you supplied 'pkg-config liblzma', but it seems invalid
13:09:09  <rknol> though pkg-config liblzma exits with non-0 exit code (and no output)
13:09:54  <krinn> pkg-config liblzma --exists | echo $?
13:10:45  <rknol> root@stoofpeer:~/build/openttd-1.3.2 # pkg-config liblzma --exists | echo $? 0
13:13:10  <krinn> pkg-config liblzma --modversion <- from my config.log
13:14:06  <rknol> i don't have a liblzma.pc apparently!
13:16:44  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26011 trunk/config.lib (2013-11-16 13:16:38 UTC)
13:16:45  <DorpsGek> -Fix: --help text of ./configure for packages that require pkg-config
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13:17:06  <krinn> can provide you that, but you need fix path in it... better get the one provide by bsd
13:17:12  <rknol> well
13:17:27  <rknol> apparently i don't have one
13:17:36  <rknol> on my system
13:18:43  <Rubidium> maybe you need to install the lzma-dev development headers? or maybe xz-dev
13:19:44  <rknol> those don't come with ports, or pkg
13:19:51  <rknol> anyways
13:19:54  <rknol> i made my own
13:19:55  <rknol> and it worked
13:20:49  <krinn> lucky you
13:21:09  <rknol> on to the next problem!
13:21:27  <rknol> http://pastie.org/private/i1vzce7lu9cb892rqeq0q
13:21:29  <rknol> nice!!!!!
13:22:55  <krinn> those says Rubidium was right
13:23:38  <Rubidium> I've always been right...
13:23:42  <Rubidium> ... handed ;)
13:24:03  <krinn> rknol, see what you made ? He will sing the whole day now
13:24:49  <rknol> well
13:24:54  <rknol> just wondering what this specific error means now!
13:25:06  <Rubidium> that the include path to lzo is missing
13:25:23  <krinn> that lzo.h is not found and then cannot provide missing symbols
13:25:49  <rknol> why is the include path to lzo missing :p
13:26:04  <Rubidium> because the development headers for lzo are missing?
13:26:24  <rknol> okay
13:26:24  <krinn> can he use ones provide by kernel ?
13:27:26  <rknol> how would i go about installing those, if they're not in ports or pkg?
13:27:28  <Rubidium> krinn: I doubt that; the development headers describe what is in the libraries
13:27:45  <krinn> rknol, really better find the bsd package for lzma dev
13:27:59  <Rubidium> lzo != lzma
13:28:27  <krinn> must be in xzutils no ?
13:29:05  <rknol> no such package in ports and/or pkg
13:29:43  <rknol> would compiling it from source install the development headers?
13:30:04  <Rubidium> krinn: no, lzo was written well... in 1996, xz in 2005
13:30:06  <rknol> plus, the xzutils website doesn't mention lzo
13:30:14  <Taede> zutils maybe?
13:30:28  <Rubidium> http://www.oberhumer.com/opensource/lzo/
13:30:52  <Rubidium> anyhow, building and installing it yourself usually creates and installs the development headers
13:31:00  <krinn> Rubidium, but lzma.h have them in it no ?
13:31:06  <rknol> okay Rubidium
13:31:11  <rknol> hold on, gonna attempt this
13:31:18  <krinn> look for xz-utils
13:31:23  <Rubidium> krinn: why would lzma.h contain lzo.h?
13:31:32  <Rubidium> because the first two characters match?
13:31:49  <Rubidium> under that premise openttd contains openoffice
13:31:51  <krinn> because it obsolete the other
13:32:44  <rknol> compiling openttd again
13:33:13  <rknol> nope, same thing
13:37:41  <rknol> consulting #feebsd on freenode about how to get those damn development headers onto my system!!
13:39:34  <krinn> well, gentoo must provide them, no choice there, but i suppose binary distrib can provide a runtime version and a dev version of a package
13:39:54  <krinn> lzma was drop for xz, ask for xz version
13:40:37  <rknol> xz doesn't contain lzo
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13:45:20  <rknol> okay Rubidium turns out i DO have the development headers
13:45:25  <rknol> but that gmake doesn't find them?
13:49:40  <krinn> Rubidium, openttd has lzo mark as dependency in my ebuild, can't it just be missing lzo ?
13:51:31  <rknol> anyways
13:51:33  <rknol> don't worry about it
13:51:37  <rknol> i'll just build it from ports
13:51:43  <rknol> (openttd)
13:51:56  <rknol> and mod the makefile to not install the whole X-server ecosystem
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15:14:39  <rknol> hello friends
15:14:41  <rknol> that's right, i'm back
15:14:42  <rknol> so
15:14:53  <rknol> i can't get the original sounds to work on 1.3.2 universal build for osx
15:15:02  <rknol> i place the gm folder in the right directory
15:15:08  <rknol> apply the right permissions
15:15:10  <rknol> but still, no go
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15:22:43  <Alberth> not DOS version or original transport tycoon ? (as explained in readme 4.1.3)
15:23:29  <Alberth> oh, it also says something about copying to baseset instead of gm
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15:35:12  <rknol> okay got that fixed!
15:35:16  <rknol> so, on to the next problem
15:35:22  <rknol> running a dedicated server that i started with -g
15:35:25  <rknol> now it tells me
15:35:32  <rknol> dbg: [sl] Game Load Failed
15:35:33  <rknol> File not readable
15:35:34  <rknol> however
15:35:37  <rknol> the file IS readable?
15:37:02  <Alberth> perhaps a save game of a patched version, or made with a newer version than what you have?
15:37:37  <Alberth> readable also means the contents is understandable, I think, not just the "r" bit
15:38:03  <rknol> freshly compiled 1.3.2 is the server
15:38:10  <rknol> freshly downloaded 1.3.2 client for osx
15:38:16  <rknol> save game made on the latter
15:38:32  <Alberth> ok, should work
15:38:36  <rknol> well
15:38:37  <rknol> it doesn't
15:38:48  <rknol> how can i debug this
15:39:12  <Alberth> tried the absolute path of the file?
15:39:17  <rknol> yes
15:40:15  <Alberth> ./openttd -d sl=5    or so   higher number is more output
15:42:20  <Alberth> no idea what the output is though
15:43:29  <rknol> ah
15:43:36  <rknol> turns out it was still my liblzma mess
15:43:39  <rknol> recompiling
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15:53:39  <rknol> actually
15:53:40  <rknol> it's not
15:53:41  <rknol> so
15:53:48  <rknol> Alberth: with the debug turned up
15:53:51  <rknol> it doesn't tell me much useful info
15:53:55  <rknol> is there anything else i could try
15:55:01  <Alberth> run it with a random game?
15:55:24  <Alberth> so you can test whether it runs at all, and possibly get a save game from it
15:55:31  <rknol> it does run
15:55:34  <rknol> with a random game
15:55:40  <rknol> just not with any .sav i make
15:56:17  <Alberth> weird
15:57:06  <Taede> can you load the game via rcon once the server is up (with a random map) ?
15:57:07  <Alberth> the only thing I can think of currently is to load a .sav that it created itself
15:57:25  <Alberth> perhaps it has newgrf dependencies?
15:57:33  <krinn> better shown the real error than "it says that"
15:57:49  <rknol> krinn: the real error is exactly that
15:58:11  <Taede> ive come across that error a few imes, in the same situation
15:58:19  <rknol> Taede: let's see
15:58:23  <Taede> but mostly the savegame itself was actually corrupted
15:58:36  <rknol> well
15:58:44  <rknol> i tried multiple .sav's
15:58:45  <krinn> and perms of the save allow server to read it ?
15:59:07  <Taede> try rcon load <savegame> and see if that works
16:03:12  <rknol> okay
16:03:17  <rknol> it can't start a randomly generated map either
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16:05:15  <krinn> didn't you just said it was working?
16:05:32  <rknol> well
16:05:39  <rknol> i was mistaken
16:05:58  <rknol> it didn't autogenerate a map, it fell back onto an autosave that WAS working
16:14:01  <rknol> so
16:14:06  <rknol> who can help me debug this
16:19:41  <Taede> trying to think what other debuglevel may give output
16:20:11  <rknol> sl=5 gives me
16:20:20  <rknol> dbg: [sl] Nulling pointers dbg: [sl] Nulling pointers for VEHS dbg: [sl] Nulling pointers for CHKP
16:20:21  <rknol> and so on
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16:20:47  <Taede> yes, and that is the actual save-load debug
16:20:53  <Taede> but you could try newgrf debug
16:21:08  <Taede> debug newgrf=5
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16:21:39  <rknol> okay
16:22:07  <rknol> unknown debug level?
16:22:13  <Taede> sorry, grf=5
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16:22:59  <Taede> and/or misc
16:23:11  <Taede> not sure any others will show anything relevant
16:24:26  <rknol> nothing to indicate errors
16:25:41  <Rubidium> just pipe -d9 into a file and paste that somewhere. Maybe someone else can see what's going wrong
16:25:57  <krinn> you have done the base: install a graphics set, soundset... (or check your package did gave you one)
16:28:16  <rknol> okay
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16:32:00  <rknol> here we go: https://dpaste.de/cs0d
16:32:49  <Rubidium> first of all, lang files do not belong in the ~/.openttd folder
16:33:20  <rknol> ~/.openttd is the bin folder
16:33:21  <rknol> of my installation
16:33:24  <rknol> on my server
16:33:38  <rknol> (i used to run multiple servers of multiple versions)
16:33:49  <Taede> ~/.openttd or ~/openttd?
16:34:28  <rknol> .openttd
16:35:11  <Alberth> dbg: [grf] LoadNewGRFFile: Reading NewGRF-file 'trghr.grf'
16:35:11  <Alberth> dbg: [grf] LoadNewGRFFile: Custom .grf has invalid format       that looks very wrong
16:35:22  <LordAro> D:
16:35:45  <rknol> well, it's not using newgrf but the original transport tycoon graphics files
16:36:06  <Alberth> it's not, it fails to read them apparently
16:36:32  <rknol> why would it do that, this works fine with a binary of a previous version (1.2.2)
16:36:40  <Alberth> original graphics files are also "newgrf" files
16:36:43  <rknol> so it's not the files themselves
16:37:06  <Alberth> r bit?
16:37:31  <rknol> what do you mean?
16:38:41  <Rubidium> based on the lack of messages about loading a savegame version, it goes wrong really really early; before even checking for compression. To me that would mean that the application has no rights to read the file you try to open (or the file is 0-ish bytes)
16:40:03  <Alberth> I mean does the program has read access?  (0 bytes is another good candidate)
16:40:03  <Rubidium> regarding trghr.grf; that shouldn't be in the newgrf folder, but it being scanned seems to imply it is
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16:40:42  <rknol> yeah
16:40:49  <rknol> i moved those out of there
16:41:03  <rknol> and i double checked permissions/group permissions of the saves folder
16:41:26  <rknol> but everything is rknol/rknol -rwxrwxrwx
16:41:41  <rknol> which should mean that it can read
16:42:14  <Alberth> so something else goes wrong while loading
16:42:34  <Rubidium> acls can also mess things up I guess
16:42:45  <rknol> i don't have an ACL enabled filesystem
16:44:30  <Rubidium> then I have no further clues
16:45:01  <rknol> any idea who to talk to who may have a clue?
16:45:15  <rknol> i mean, i don't think this is supposed to be broken like this after a fresh, sane build
16:45:19  <Alberth> you just spoke with the lead dev :p
16:45:27  <rknol> oh boy
16:46:20  <Alberth> hmm, g++ version perhaps?
16:47:00  <rknol> [rknol@freebsd0 /home/msikma/.openttd]$ g++ --version g++ (GCC) 4.2.1 20070831 patched [FreeBSD]
16:48:09  <Alberth> ok, not 4.5 thus
16:48:54  <rknol> this is the latest i can acquire on this system
16:49:03  <rknol> (freebsd 9.0)
16:49:37  <krinn> really, recheck your perms
16:50:01  <krinn> openttd read from /usr/home/mskima and not from /home/msikma like you just gave
16:50:23  <Alberth> krinn: /usr/home is normal at a bsd system
16:50:42  <krinn> and home is a link to it ?
16:51:01  <__ln__> why would home need to be a link to it?
16:51:20  <krinn> no idea but openttd also read from /home/rknol dir
16:51:28  <rknol> that's because it checks the current dir
16:51:34  <rknol> but also the environment of the user executing it
16:52:17  <rknol> gonna see if i can get this to build on my freebsd 9.2 system
16:52:52  <rknol> given up on this 9.0 machine for this
16:54:39  <dada_> krinn: /usr/home = /home
16:54:43  <dada_> (also have access to the server)
16:55:11  <rknol> dada_ is in fact.... msikma
16:57:03  <dada_> *plot twist*
16:58:32  <rknol> plot twist indeed
16:58:35  <rknol> okay
16:58:39  <rknol> it's building on our 9.2 server
16:58:50  <rknol> we shall see..
16:59:01  <dada_> i dun get it :-(
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17:02:22  <Alberth> mount point?
17:04:04  <rknol> building it from ports, since 1.3.2 is the version in ports on freebsd 9.2
17:04:18  <rknol> hopefully that will do the trick
17:04:38  <rknol> sign
17:04:40  <rknol> sigh*
17:04:43  <rknol> not having the best of luck today
17:05:03  <rknol> https://dpaste.de/0dBk
17:05:06  <rknol> what is going wrong
17:05:10  <rknol> i just want to play this game!!!!
17:05:41  *** rubenwardy [~rubenward@host86-151-208-96.range86-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:05:49  <dada_> don't worry rknol. there's always minesweeper
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17:09:08  <frosch123> that is a linker error
17:09:23  <frosch123> so you are missing the xz/lzma libarary in the LDFLAGS
17:09:36  <rknol> any idea as to how to fix that
17:10:27  <rknol> this resulted from running 'cd /usr/ports/games/opentdd && make -D WITH_DEDICATED_SERVER_ONLY=1 && make install' on a good as new freebsd9.2 system
17:10:27  <frosch123> pkg-config lzma --libs should output them
17:11:18  <rknol> Package 'lzma', required by 'world', not found
17:11:19  <rknol> but
17:11:25  <rknol> root@stoofpeer:/usr/ports/games/openttd # pkg-config liblzma --libs -llzma
17:11:38  <frosch123> "pkg-config liblzma --libs" gives "-llzma" for me (on linux)
17:11:43  <rknol> yeah
17:11:46  <rknol> for me too on this system
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17:20:17  <krinn> and grep perfix /pathto/liblzma.pc
17:26:15  *** rubenwardy_ is now known as rubenwardy
17:26:27  <rubenwardy> How can I make a train track one way?
17:26:39  <frosch123> build one-way signals
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17:27:08  <rubenwardy> At junctions and station?
17:28:22  <rubenwardy> found it on the wiki
17:30:28  <rknol> frosch123: prefix=/usr
17:30:34  <rknol> exec_prefix=${prefix}
17:30:40  <rknol> libdir=${exec_prefix}/lib
17:31:41  <krinn> <rknol> root@stoofpeer:~/build/openttd-1.3.2 # ldd /usr/local/lib/liblzma.so
17:31:58  <krinn> -> /usr is not /usr/local
17:32:15  <rknol> it's also in /usr
17:33:17  <rknol> i have tried both prefixes
17:33:21  <rknol> but the result is the same
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17:35:19  <krinn> i really don't get freebsd, or your system is a mess (and tbh i think both are true)
17:35:24  <rubenwardy> Is it possible to view all bus stops and their ratings in a list?
17:36:14  <rknol> krinn: my system is as good as fresh, so i guess you just don't get freebsd ;-)
17:36:22  <krinn> rebenwardy sort by Highest/lowest cargor rating and click the bus icon to filter only bus station
17:38:26  <krinn> nobody should run from a user directory that isn't his, if it's not a mess, then i will never put my hands on freebsd
17:38:33  <rubenwardy> Is this on list of companies stations?
17:38:47  <krinn> rubenwardy, yes
17:38:53  <rubenwardy> How do you sort?
17:39:31  <rubenwardy> Does "sort" mean by cargo rating?
17:39:31  <krinn> http://wiki.openttd.org/images/c/ce/StationList.png
17:39:48  <rubenwardy> So that progress bar is rating?
17:39:52  <krinn> on that pick it's set to name, you can change rating
17:40:49  <rubenwardy> is "PS" == passenger?
17:40:55  <krinn> and the "progress bar" is cargo waiting at station
17:41:00  <krinn> yes
17:41:27  <rubenwardy> so red green progress bar is rating, blue is cargo (ie passengers)?
17:42:03  <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r26012 /trunk/src (7 files in 3 dirs) (2013-11-16 17:41:57 UTC)
17:42:04  <DorpsGek> -Add: new goal type that show a story page when clicked
17:42:24  <krinn> http://wiki.openttd.org/Station_list answer all
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17:52:07  <DorpsGek> Commit by fonsinchen :: r26013 /trunk (known-bugs.txt src/station_cmd.cpp) (2013-11-16 17:52:00 UTC)
17:52:08  <DorpsGek> -Revert (r25495) [FS#5684]: Having trains miss a platform that is just being modified is less of a problem than having trains stop twice without moving.
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17:54:43  <supermop> hi
17:55:36  <rubenwardy> If I have a shared order for buses, and want to make a timetable, if I do autofill for one, will it share with the rest?
17:55:45  <supermop> yes
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18:10:53  <rubenwardy> In order to stop the buses clunking, after setting a timetable, do I put them all back in the depo and start them all again at the same time?
18:13:47  <Zuu> You will want to set different schedule start times for each bus.
18:13:59  <Zuu> Add some buffer in the time table so that bussas can catch up delay
18:14:17  *** Elukka [~Elukka@a91-152-213-89.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit []
18:14:59  <Zuu> And it is also best to ensure that you release the busses in the right order compared to their start time sequence as they don't take over automatically to fix this if you release them in the wrong order.
18:16:51  <krinn> never use it, but any delay disturb time table setting? like a train at crossing, or do they resync with the timetable themselves?
18:20:24  <krinn> got my answer : tune a little slack time to allow them to catch up after delays.
18:21:37  <frosch123> i still think that it is more clever to only timetable loading times, never travel times
18:22:26  <Zuu> That is what I end up doing most times in OpenTTD.
18:22:29  <krinn> a load for 1 min than goes asap to next station with what you could have get?
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18:29:30  <frosch123> krinn: the idea is that every road vehicle blocks the station, so the vehicle behind it cannot start loading
18:29:47  <frosch123> so, when it leaves the next one will wait at least the timetable time, before it continues
18:30:13  <krinn> ok, waiting even if full so
18:30:35  <frosch123> without timetabling and without fullload, rv usualy clump up, because the closer a vehicle is following another vehicle, the less cargo will there be to load, and thus the faster it will follow again
18:31:21  <rubenwardy> I have too many buses to keep the view ports open, is there a way of showing them in a list, that displays if they are broken down, or late?
18:31:40  <frosch123> there are vehicle lists
18:31:48  <frosch123> per company, per station
18:31:53  <frosch123> or per shared orders
18:32:11  <krinn> better use groups
18:32:32  <frosch123> if you are a new player, you should read up on "shared orders"
18:32:37  <frosch123> they simplify a lot
18:32:50  <rubenwardy> I am using shared order
18:32:52  <rubenwardy> S
18:33:29  <frosch123> both station views and the order list have a vehicle button in the bottom right corner
18:33:33  <frosch123> which opens a list of vehicles
18:33:58  <rubenwardy> The problem with the road vechicle list, is that it is too big in width because of the group filter bar
18:34:19  <frosch123> ctrl+click the rv list button, to get a list without groups
18:34:32  <rubenwardy> Thank you
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18:38:38  <Bloody_Mikey> how do i start AI?
18:38:47  <Bloody_Mikey> on a company
18:39:02  <krinn> start_ai nameofai
18:39:29  <krinn> list_ai to see what ai version you have
18:40:17  <Bloody_Mikey> okey but that ai i did start did not do anything
18:40:39  <krinn> it depend on the AI, doing nothing might be a wanted feature
18:41:40  <krinn> also depend on settings: disallow aircraft vehicle will stuck an ai that use only aircraft, disallow any vehicle will stuck all ai...
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18:44:25  <Alberth> also some AIs take a long time to compute stuff before they start building
18:45:34  <krinn> and newgrf affect them too
18:45:56  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26014 /trunk/src/lang (7 files) (2013-11-16 18:45:43 UTC)
18:45:57  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:58  <DorpsGek> english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
18:45:59  <DorpsGek> finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
18:46:00  <DorpsGek> polish - 1 changes by wojteks86
18:46:01  <DorpsGek> romanian - 15 changes by tonny
18:46:02  <DorpsGek> russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
18:46:03  <DorpsGek> slovak - 4 changes by Milsa
18:46:04  <DorpsGek> swedish - 1 changes by Joel_A
18:49:02  <Taede> 25 years of circling round a truck depot on a single tank of fuel. not bad for an airplane designed in 1954
18:49:52  <Alberth> give those pax a break, I am sure they'd be glad to feel the ground now :)
18:50:01  <frosch123> Taede: depends on the wind conditions
18:50:15  <Taede> its just pilots in the plane
18:50:32  <Alberth> with a LOT of food, apparently :p
18:50:33  <Taede> i just forgot to turn that game off
18:50:34  <krinn> worth their ticket price
18:50:43  <Taede> either that, or they turned into zombies
18:51:00  <Alberth> they had auto-pilots in 1954?
18:51:04  <krinn> after snake on a plane, zombies won't shock me
18:51:41  <krinn> Alberth, the blowing doll from "is there a pilot"
18:52:05  <Alberth> that would be feasible :p
18:52:20  <Taede> very precise flying for an autopilot, nearly exactly square
18:53:19  <Taede> also im 37mil in the red, shouldnt i have gone bankrupt before now?
18:53:48  <krinn> nope, look at greece
18:54:58  <Alberth> after 25 years, it understands the trick :p
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18:56:39  <krinn> but true with no maintenance, zombi pilot and no fuel, you shouldn't goes red with a 0 running cost aircraft
18:57:20  <Taede> actually i had basecostmod loaded
18:57:25  <frosch123> Alberth: you are quite off
18:57:36  <frosch123> the first autopilot for aircraft existed in 1912
18:57:51  <Taede> it costs me 1.25mil a year to run an aircraft
18:57:51  <Alberth> :o very early thus!
18:57:58  <Taede> oh, i heard about that
18:58:32  <Taede> they walked on wings to demonstrate that the pilot wasnt actually doing anything, right?
18:58:35  <Alberth> Taede: but this is not a normal aircraft, it has been flying for 25 years non-stop. You need to maintain it while flying
18:59:14  <Taede> then why is it valued at only £750,- ?
19:00:47  <krinn> i suppose any zombi inside lower its value
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19:32:14  <planetmaker> hello
19:33:18  <Alberth> hi hi
19:33:37  <Zuu> Hello planetmaker
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19:59:13  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26015 /trunk/src (3 files) (2013-11-16 19:59:06 UTC)
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19:59:14  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: some constificaton
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20:08:47  <rubenwardy> I love this game
20:11:18  <planetmaker> :-)
20:11:39  <rubenwardy> I have a dual track layout, but if a train is on one side, another can not join it, even though they are going the same direction
20:11:47  <rubenwardy> (i am using one way lights)
20:12:07  <rubenwardy> Ie: there can only be one train on each side at a time
20:13:29  <alluke> screenshot?
20:15:08  <rubenwardy> http://ubuntuone.com/4N1ZXYaXDrmgzxfE30STAw
20:15:31  <rubenwardy> also, would the station work as expected with no collision?
20:15:43  <planetmaker> rubenwardy, you know the difference between path and block signals?
20:15:44  <rubenwardy> Or do I need to use that special signals
20:15:54  <planetmaker> those look all like block signals. Try path signals
20:15:57  <rubenwardy> no
20:16:09  <rubenwardy> on the one way, or the platform as well?
20:16:12  <planetmaker> http://kokolokus.de/?s=blog&v=6
20:18:28  <planetmaker> rubenwardy, one-wayblock signals never can be passed from the backside
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20:18:54  <rubenwardy> so ctrl and click with another signal to change to one way path?
20:20:32  <planetmaker> is it a terminus station? Or a through-station?
20:20:47  <planetmaker> stop all trains. delete all signals
20:20:55  <alluke> i see 90° turn too
20:21:16  <planetmaker> place a one-way path signal on the field *before* the junction for trains going to the station
20:21:32  <planetmaker> place two-way path signals facing the station immediately adjacent to it
20:22:02  <planetmaker> place the first signal on the track going away from the station at a distance of one train length to the junction
20:22:49  <planetmaker> alluke, that doesn't matter. 90° turn is allowed by default
20:24:21  <alluke> should not
20:24:33  <alluke> id remove the whole feature
20:24:40  <rubenwardy> Where is the 90 turn?
20:25:09  <planetmaker> a train leaving the station from the lower track, heading to the left
20:25:15  <rubenwardy> <planetmaker> place two-way path signals facing the --- is that after the cross?
20:25:30  <planetmaker> immediately adjacent to the station
20:25:42  <planetmaker> between junction and station. signals facing station
20:25:45  <alluke> id fix your layout like this https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1004368/N%C3%A4ytt%C3%B6kuva%202013-11-16%20kohteessa%2022.23.57.png
20:25:57  <planetmaker> rubenwardy, but read wiki on signals as well
20:26:04  <planetmaker> it explains basic station signaling :-)
20:26:16  <planetmaker> and has images
20:26:19  <planetmaker> which I don't
20:26:54  <__ln__> oh no, does that filename come from the finnish translation?
20:27:04  <planetmaker> http://wiki.openttd.org/File:Yapp_basicstation.png
20:27:34  <alluke> its the default screenshot name
20:27:59  <__ln__> argh
20:28:06  <alluke> a bit long but i cba to invent something shorter
20:28:39  <__ln__> it's been translated without understanding what the arguments are
20:28:54  <alluke> its not openttd screenshot name
20:29:15  <alluke> i took it with the system app
20:29:30  <alluke> easier and faster
20:29:38  <rubenwardy> are those one way path signals: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1004368/N%C3%A4ytt%C3%B6kuva%202013-11-16%20kohteessa%2022.23.57.png
20:29:45  <planetmaker> easier and faster than ctrl+s? nah
20:29:54  <__ln__> i see. well, good for openttd, but it's still translated wrong.
20:29:58  <alluke> cmd shift 4, drag and drop the area and it pops onto the desktop
20:30:04  <rubenwardy> Because when I try to place them they are not lights
20:30:27  <__ln__> just apple's quality control is to be blamed this time
20:30:32  <alluke> yep
20:30:35  <planetmaker> rubenwardy, select the signal you want to place from the signal picker. or use ctrl+click to cycle through
20:31:30  <rubenwardy> On the wiki there is two icons to make signal, do I place the first then ctrl-click the second?
20:31:39  <rubenwardy> or does it mean this or this
20:32:15  <planetmaker> http://wiki.openttd.org/Building_signals
20:32:32  <rubenwardy> thanks
20:32:40  <rubenwardy> for your help
20:33:01  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26016 /trunk/src (3 files) (2013-11-16 20:32:55 UTC)
20:33:02  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: prepare for some class renames
20:34:01  <alluke> i wonder when google finds out that google+ is a failed product and they shut it down
20:34:53  <rubenwardy> Yet again, when it says X and Y signals in the table, do I place one then the other?
20:35:15  <frosch123> alluke: whining about yt?
20:36:07  <alluke> yeah
20:36:31  <frosch123> watched tb's vlog?
20:36:37  <alluke> link
20:36:58  <alluke> or tl;dw
20:37:19  <frosch123> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDTspUNj-4w
20:37:43  <frosch123> nah, i am not good enough at rambling for a tl;dw :)
20:37:50  <alluke> 30 mins
20:37:55  <alluke> aint got time fo dat
20:38:47  <frosch123> oh, i think first 10 are enough
20:40:11  <alluke> first minute has been nonsense
20:40:30  <LordAro> TB is usually quite intelligent
20:42:14  <Rubidium> oh... not *THE* TB :(
20:42:46  <planetmaker> confused the hell out of me :-)
20:43:08  <alluke> why bar djs refuse to play scooter :(
20:43:14  <LordAro> both TBs are quite intelligent ;)
20:43:41  <frosch123> well, at least the like-bar is blue/red again :p
20:44:10  <LordAro> :p
20:48:50  <planetmaker> that guy really talks himself into rage :D
20:50:01  <frosch123> yup, he is good at shouting at people on the internet
20:50:09  <frosch123> even so good that he is succesful with it :p
20:50:40  <planetmaker> :D
20:50:43  <planetmaker> sounds like
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20:58:01  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26017 /trunk/src (gfx_layout.cpp gfx_layout.h) (2013-11-16 20:57:54 UTC)
20:58:02  <DorpsGek> -Change: allow the fallback and ICU layouter to exist in unison
20:58:03  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5711]: crash when the ICU layouter thinks a font is corrupted
20:59:16  <alluke> does dorpsgek ape everything that is made to openttd
20:59:25  <andythenorth> what do you think?
20:59:33  <alluke> i dont know
20:59:39  <andythenorth> http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/
21:01:36  <rubenwardy> Can some one show me a screenshot of what one way path signals should look like
21:01:49  <rubenwardy> Are they lights, or sophomores?
21:01:52  <alluke> its the rightmost signal on hte list
21:02:00  <alluke> both light and semaphore
21:02:49  <planetmaker> you didn't read the link on building signals :-( It lists them all. With image. Both semaphore and light
21:02:56  <rubenwardy> So it is or
21:03:04  <rubenwardy> You did not answer my question
21:03:09  <rubenwardy> Yet again, when it says X and Y signals in the table, do I place one then the other?
21:03:15  <rubenwardy> <rubenwardy> Yet again, when it says X and Y signals in the table, do I place one then the other?
21:03:16  <alluke> nsfw ottd would be fun
21:03:31  <alluke> at 2050 it would show porn instead of the winners list
21:03:56  <Supercheese> I think George's Long Vehicles may have that covered
21:04:02  <Supercheese> although it begins long before 2050
21:04:16  <andythenorth> it's not as though porn is unavailable elsewhere :P
21:04:45  <frosch123> didn't lordaro have some heightmap?
21:04:56  <LordAro> wuh
21:05:04  <planetmaker> rubenwardy, I read the words but don't understand what you ask
21:05:22  <rubenwardy> There were two images
21:05:32  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26018 /trunk/src (3 files) (2013-11-16 21:05:26 UTC)
21:05:33  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: since there's a wrapper for ICU functions now, we can use proper coding style for names again
21:05:38  <rubenwardy> I meant in the question do you place the first one on the track
21:05:47  <rubenwardy> then the second one on the same square
21:06:02  <rubenwardy> but obvously not, it is you can use this one or this one.
21:06:09  <frosch123> light signals and semaphores are just visual appearance
21:06:12  <frosch123> if you mean that
21:06:18  <frosch123> they work the same, just look different
21:06:25  <rubenwardy> yeah
21:06:53  <rubenwardy> basically the question was do the signals need to be combined on the same square, and the answer is no.
21:07:02  <alluke> yt livestreams always have so quiet sound
21:07:08  <planetmaker> one square. one signal type
21:08:24  <rubenwardy> Does a path signal == "two-way path signals"
21:08:45  <planetmaker> yes
21:09:03  <planetmaker> except when it's stated explicitly 'one-way path signal'
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21:15:21  * andythenorth -> bed
21:15:25  <andythenorth> good night
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21:18:37  <rknol> okay so
21:18:46  <rknol> where do i obtain the osx universal builds of older openttd versions
21:18:54  <rknol> and source
21:19:03  <rknol> because i can't get the latest to build on freebsd at all
21:19:21  <frosch123> what's the relation between osx and freebsd?
21:19:52  <planetmaker> download-stable/X.Y.Z
21:20:04  <planetmaker> download-trunk/r12345
21:20:07  <rknol> frosch123: i want to run the server on freebsd
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21:20:14  <rknol> and play it on my macbook pro
21:20:48  <alluke> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=69146 ive had this in mind for sooo long :D
21:21:01  <planetmaker> svn co svn://svn.openttd.org/tags/X.Y.Z
21:21:07  <rknol> thanks planetmaker
21:22:19  <Supercheese> OTTD drugs & alcohol edition
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21:22:33  <planetmaker> sounds like a newgrf idea, Supercheese :-P
21:22:34  <Supercheese> somehow I don't see it being very popular
21:22:49  <alluke> would make a great industry set
21:22:52  <Supercheese> well, I've already got the cop cars ;)
21:23:16  <alluke> transport ho's to brothels
21:23:20  <Alberth> why?  is transport of illegal stuff in openttd more exciting than normal stuff?
21:23:30  <alluke> fields would grow pot
21:23:34  <Alberth> there are no cops in openttd to stop you
21:23:35  <alluke> yes!
21:23:36  <planetmaker> with game scripts and proper newgrfs - maybe :-)
21:23:49  <planetmaker> a GS can act as incredibly unmerciful cop ;-)
21:23:52  <planetmaker> fine: 10M
21:23:56  <planetmaker> fine: 2 trains
21:24:06  <Supercheese> Meth lab production: 0
21:24:16  <planetmaker> lol. You watched too much Breaking Bad
21:24:21  <frosch123> planetmaker: we need an api function for "ignore next signal" :p
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21:24:22  <Supercheese> "This industry has been shut down by the police"
21:24:33  <Alberth> nah, Meth lab production: -1
21:24:43  <planetmaker> frosch123, easy: remove signals works just the same ;P
21:24:44  <Supercheese> Explosion
21:24:48  <Alberth> now you have to reverse the transport :)
21:24:51  <planetmaker> (and re-build afterwards)
21:24:57  <Supercheese> can GS clear/destroy tiles?
21:25:00  <planetmaker> yes
21:25:03  <frosch123> planetmaker: how evil :p
21:25:04  <Supercheese> excellent
21:25:16  <frosch123> randomly replace signals with different ones
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21:25:23  <planetmaker> lol. That's even more evil
21:25:26  <frosch123> switching driving direction
21:25:45  <Alberth> add tracks :)
21:27:13  <planetmaker> un-electrify track :-)
21:28:45  <alluke> firs has already alcohol production
21:28:52  <Eddi|zuHause> 1946, russian occupation, remove all electrifications and electric engines?
21:29:01  <alluke> add-on grf would be nice
21:29:31  <Eddi|zuHause> will that GS get an "R" rating then?
21:29:37  <Eddi|zuHause> for "too realistic"? :p
21:29:52  <krinn> well Eddi|zuHause actually with the price of copper, people kept stole them them here
21:29:54  <alluke> wwii grf u say?
21:30:20  <alluke> i have one idea for that but i aint going to say it
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21:30:27  <krinn> so you don't need russian when crisis strike
21:30:30  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: usually what is stolen is the grounding
21:30:32  <frosch123> easy to do, just make an admin script that executes "restart"
21:30:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i have rarely heard of anyone stealing actual catenary (while powered)
21:31:27  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: like the berlin S-Bahn?
21:32:09  <frosch123> stealnig powered catenary is harder, because it it noticed quicker
21:32:20  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, http://lci.tf1.fr/france/faits-divers/homme-caronise-suspendu-a-une-catenaire-un-vol-de-cable-qui-tourne-7897118.html
21:32:39  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: the 2008 maintenance crisis (too heavy "economical" optimisation) shut down the main east-west trunk line for weeks, which neither WWII nor the cold war managed
21:32:43  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, they have no limits, including dying making it
21:33:11  <alluke> what about stealing rails
21:33:22  <krinn> rails are heavy
21:33:27  <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: actually that did happen
21:33:28  <alluke> yes
21:33:38  <krinn> and rails aren't made of copper no?
21:33:40  <planetmaker> also rail sleepers are heavy...
21:33:46  <alluke> no sleepers
21:33:50  <alluke> theyre worth nothing
21:34:03  <alluke> steel can be sold
21:34:04  <Eddi|zuHause> guys were caught loading rails from a switchyard onto a truck
21:34:19  <planetmaker> had to remove some today and put them in the dumpster... damn heavy
21:34:25  <krinn> http://www.lme.com/en-gb/metals/non-ferrous/copper/
21:34:27  <Eddi|zuHause> when the police arrived, the guys were gone, but the truck was registered to one of the guys, so they caught them
21:34:31  <krinn> look at that, better than gold
21:34:43  <alluke> new catastrophe?
21:34:46  <krinn> (as not as rare as gold and easy to steal)
21:34:51  <alluke> few rail tiles would disappear
21:35:02  <Eddi|zuHause> steel is pretty expensive now as well
21:35:27  <alluke> what about sucking diesel from trucks?
21:35:44  <krinn> alluke, and pay taxes, nah
21:35:56  <alluke> i mean as catastrophe
21:36:06  <alluke> like stealing rails
21:36:21  <krinn> a new catastrophe for ottd ?
21:36:27  <alluke> yeah
21:36:27  <Eddi|zuHause> can GS issue arbitrary news messages?
21:36:31  <krinn> let have a vehicle been recalled like in life
21:36:42  <alluke> introduction in 2010 for example
21:36:44  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, yes anytime the GS wish
21:37:08  <alluke> called thiefs
21:37:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i should make a "realistic" central europe scenario/gs
21:37:45  <krinn> date triggered news ?
21:38:14  <Eddi|zuHause> what might be useful is cutting arbitrary links in cargodist
21:38:23  <alluke> chase & status concert fail
21:38:40  <Rubidium> planetmaker: they can't be that heavy; only like 50-60 kg/m
21:39:01  <alluke> truck and crane is enough to steal good amount of steel
21:39:22  <alluke> and something to cut the rails
21:40:46  <krinn> i'm not sure anyone is interrest by french link to it, so to sum up: they even stole 1000m of catenary on a line
21:40:56  <alluke> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKKw7nWFxCQ
21:41:06  <Rubidium> it only gets you like 30 EUR/m (if you're lucky)
21:41:35  <Rubidium> and for that you need to unscrew 3 screws on average a meter, and need a pretty big saw to cut it
21:41:43  <krinn> 30000eur for a night have a job that beat that ?
21:41:43  <Eddi|zuHause> well if you unload a 5t load?
21:42:27  <Eddi|zuHause> that's about 100m, ao 3000€
21:43:15  <krinn> 30 eur/m = 1000m
21:43:20  <Eddi|zuHause> but you have to move it out of country, because our scrapyards will check the markings
21:43:37  <Rubidium> 30 eur/m for the rail
21:43:41  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: do they?
21:43:44  <alluke> steal something that can chew the steel into small pieces
21:43:54  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: at least that's what the newspapers write
21:43:56  <frosch123> usually you drive in with your truck, and drive out again
21:43:56  <Rubidium> even though copper is more expensive, you get must less per meter
21:44:11  <Rubidium> s/must/much/
21:44:11  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: depends if you raise suspicions
21:44:14  <frosch123> while driving over the scale
21:44:18  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, processing copper won't look from when it comes if you offer them half price cable
21:44:46  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. of the scrapyard guy is "not honest" :p
21:44:54  <krinn> anyway, they kept stole them, so i suppose they don't have much of trouble to sell them, because they work on quantity
21:45:44  <Eddi|zuHause> steal in hannover, drive 300km to poland, sell there... nobody asks questions
21:45:46  <krinn> -> €30 million a year in stolen cables
21:46:06  <krinn> http://m.thelocal.fr/20131023/french-call-in-drones-to-fight-rail-thieves
21:46:08  <Rubidium> krinn: based on what source?
21:46:09  <planetmaker> Rubidium, yeah. Unfortunately they seem to have a length of like 2 to 3 metres :)
21:46:19  <krinn> Rubidium, sorry i was copy/pasting it
21:46:32  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: i wouldn't trust those "damage" statistics
21:47:20  <Eddi|zuHause> it's as reliable as "copyright violation" damages or "street value" of drugs
21:47:24  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, sure they can push a bit of other losts within it, but really we keep seeing stolen cable on news
21:47:29  <Rubidium> krinn: to me that reads like "reduce 30 million of costs caused by thieves", instead of "value of stolen stuff = 30 million"
21:48:00  <Rubidium> just stealing one meter of cable can costs thousands of euros
21:48:12  <krinn> Rubidium, yeah, but it could be worste then, i don't think sncf paid really their cable at pure copper price with the manufacturing
21:48:15  <Eddi|zuHause> numbers like this are easily exaggerated by factor 10-100
21:48:27  <Eddi|zuHause> or completely made up
21:48:36  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, still a 3 million/year
21:49:03  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: 3 million for a company that makes 1billion PROFIT each year?
21:49:05  <krinn> when i told you it's national sport here, it is really
21:49:27  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, sure it's nothing, but 3 million for thiefs is not that little for them
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21:49:50  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, but the lost cable = trains are stuck :)
21:49:59  <Eddi|zuHause> have 3000 thieves, each thieve makes 1000€
21:50:09  <krinn> and SNCF don't need help to have stuck train, they do that themselves already pretty well
21:50:28  <Eddi|zuHause> assume groups of 3, makse 1000 thefts a year, or 3 per day
21:50:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think it's really paying off unless you're organized crime or really desperate
21:51:22  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, i'll try to find a value of one attack, but they don't like say how much they stole
21:51:46  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: sure, there may be a handful of really heavy ones
21:52:12  <Eddi|zuHause> but they don't make that much on the statistical level
21:53:11  <krinn> http://www.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/metaux_ondt_2012.pdf lol even made a stats on copper price/stolen attack
21:53:26  <krinn> (note that this include abord attacks)
21:53:38  <krinn> so not all succeed
21:54:19  <Rubidium> looks like they only steal when the weather is nice
21:54:35  <krinn> lol weather is always nice here
21:54:38  <krinn> south part
21:55:39  <Rubidium> yeah, I remember that nice weather from last time I was there
21:55:51  <krinn> where did you go ?
21:56:16  <Eddi|zuHause> so krinn just volunteered to host the r26k party? :p
21:56:18  <alluke> when will 1.4.0 come out
21:56:57  <frosch123> 2014-14-14 maybe
21:57:05  <krinn> i'm 3 steps from mediterranean sea if you want jump in
21:57:57  <alluke> not this year?
21:58:46  <krinn> google maps "la seyne sur mer"
21:59:12  <krinn> but toulon should be more known
21:59:18  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: no, that is DBSetXL 0.9
22:00:20  <frosch123> i wonder whethere something would be released on 2013-12-11
22:00:31  <krinn> no xmas release ?
22:00:39  <Rubidium> krinn: june 2010
22:00:49  <krinn> 2010 a bit late
22:01:18  <krinn> oh time when you were in south france ?
22:01:19  <Rubidium> I was actually in Andora (Italy), but had to go, by train, via Nice and Marseille back home
22:02:05  <krinn> hope you enjoy the weather, always warm and shiny
22:02:09  <frosch123> rb was in the news for beating up a conductor or so iirc
22:02:19  <krinn> lol
22:03:00  <alluke> rebecca black?
22:03:55  <Supercheese> -_-
22:04:38  <Eddi|zuHause> was it a friday? :p
22:05:17  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, they arrest a traffic and get back : 180 tonnes of copper!
22:05:21  <Supercheese> -___-
22:05:31  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, not really the 2-3 thiefs hu
22:06:08  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: need more than 3 people and a 5t truck for that :p
22:06:30  <Eddi|zuHause> and i did say "unless organized crime"
22:06:31  <krinn> yep, and it was what cops gets back, not what they stole
22:06:48  *** zydeco [~zydeco@169.67.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd
22:07:22  <krinn> sncf report 35millions for 2011, i suppose 30millions is kinda better now
22:08:06  <krinn> even i do actually thinks too they boost the number every year
22:09:32  <alluke> east europe should be enclosed :P
22:09:45  <alluke> except estonia
22:13:15  <krinn> and sncf time ago has tried to be an internet provider
22:13:24  <krinn> jesus, glad i didn't took that offer!
22:13:56  *** jjavaholic [~jjavaholi@grahamg63.plus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:15:52  <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: that didn't work out well the last time :p
22:16:15  <alluke> how
22:17:09  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26019 trunk/config.lib (2013-11-16 22:17:02 UTC)
22:17:10  <DorpsGek> -Fix: copy-paste error in configure help
22:18:20  <Rubidium> krinn: if 40 cm of rain in one day is shiny, then yes... you had beatiful weather during that month in the south of France
22:19:09  <alluke> in here its cold wet and dark :(
22:19:44  <krinn> Rubidium, bad luck :)
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22:23:38  <krinn> we range from 100-190mm when north part can goes upto 2000mm of rain / year
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22:28:28  <krinn> http://www.tameteo.com/meteo_La+Seyne+sur+Mer-Europe-France-Var--1-25774.html
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22:30:08  <Rubidium> krinn: so you have about 20% of the rain of a year next monday and tuesday?
22:30:14  <frosch123> hmm, so your lowest temperature is higher than my lowest
22:31:07  <krinn> Rubidium, that's average / year rubidium: and yes, most part we get is in winter, and exceptionally other season, you were really unlucky
22:34:17  <Rubidium> http://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/figures/average-annual-precipitation/map_5_1_annual_precip.eps/image_original doesn't seem to fit with your numbers
22:35:06  <krinn> well we're blue, so 1-500mm (can't really see the range)
22:35:34  <krinn> and most part in white in fact
22:35:48  <frosch123> that is about the same colour everywhere
22:35:49  <Rubidium> but the north of france is in the same range
22:36:14  <Rubidium> anyhow... http://www.currentresults.com/Weather/France/average-yearly-precipitation.php
22:36:20  <krinn> well, go to paris, you'll see if they don't have rain there
22:36:48  <Rubidium> that seems to imply 500-900 for SE France
22:36:48  <glx> no rain for now ;)
22:36:52  <krinn> i'll be 616 so
22:37:19  <krinn> 58 days average rain
22:37:20  <glx> but it's cold outside
22:37:24  <krinn> from 365...
22:37:36  <krinn> glx you're from paris ?
22:37:45  <glx> near
22:37:56  <krinn> like 99% of parisien :)
22:38:03  <Rubidium> there's nowhere in France which has 10 times more rain, maybe barely 2 times more rain and a few percent less. Nothing close to the ranges you mentioned
22:38:13  <krinn> <- born arpajon (essonne)
22:38:52  <krinn> Rubidium, ask glx : bretagne is nearly always under rain
22:39:09  <glx> that's totally false
22:39:37  <Rubidium> krinn: that's a just a feeling
22:39:39  <glx> windy for sure
22:39:45  <krinn> and cold
22:40:15  <glx> I'd say temperate
22:40:42  <Rubidium> if someone may whine, then it's maybe Belugas
22:40:42  <glx> not too cold in winter, not too hot in summer
22:41:04  <Rubidium> (163 days of rain)
22:41:06  <krinn> where is he?
22:41:16  <glx> quebec
22:41:22  <glx> but is from france
22:41:45  <krinn> 159 	Brest
22:41:58  <Rubidium> oh... I'll complain as well
22:42:01  <krinn> 159 days under rain isn't that half a year so ?
22:42:03  <Rubidium> 184 days, apparantly...
22:42:50  <glx> you can get all seasons in one day ;)
22:43:02  <krinn> :D
22:43:05  <alluke> snow too?
22:43:27  <glx> yeah snow on morning and rain after
22:44:17  <krinn> http://www.worldweatheronline.com/La-Seyne-weather-averages/Provence-Alpes-Cote-Dazur/FR.aspx
22:44:32  <krinn> need to be at near 0C for snow no ?
22:44:38  <Rubidium> though... it's all statistics I fear
22:45:05  <krinn> kinda hard to lives in all those places to check everyday if stats lie :)
22:45:18  <Rubidium> might very well be that 80% of the cold wintery days are seen as "raining" because it's so hazy that droplets form or so
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22:46:08  <Rubidium> in any case, in the last half year there were maybe 2 or 3 days that I used an umbrella
22:46:27  <Rubidium> and apparantly on ~90 other days as well
22:46:29  <krinn> lmao i don't an umbrella
22:47:03  <krinn> and it's hard to find where to buy one here
22:47:55  <frosch123> i never had an umbrella when i was living more northern
22:48:12  <frosch123> i always had a hood
22:48:21  <Rubidium> it's also difficult to buy an umbrella in Japan, unless it rains. Then they are almost everywhere
22:48:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i was at a restaurant once and it started to rain heavily and nobody had an umbrella with hin, and the restaurant guy said "we have like 10 leftovers that nobody ever picked up, just take them"
22:48:29  <frosch123> but then i learned that in the south it can be warm while raining
22:48:41  <frosch123> so, jackets are not suitable
22:49:09  <Rubidium> anyhow, most of the time 'rain' here is merely drizzle
22:49:23  <krinn> the rainy days here, it's like a lot of rain falling and it stops just like it starts minutes later
22:49:24  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, southwest germany is a lot warmer than elsewhere :p
22:49:58  <glx> krinn: we call it a shower ;)
22:50:04  <krinn> :) true
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22:50:59  <Eddi|zuHause> but yeah, i use hoods mostly
22:51:27  <Eddi|zuHause> whenever you need an umbrella, you didn't bring it
22:51:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess that's a variant of murphy's law :p
22:52:03  <krinn> :P
22:52:26  <krinn> just like Rubidium trek here, never really rain, and he still manage to get rain in june!
22:53:14  <Rubidium> it makes me so mad, I could literally explode
22:54:11  *** rknol [~oftc-webi@5352ECF3.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
22:58:22  <frosch123> yeah, if we make the r26k party near the sea, we should shink-wrap rb into some plastic before hand
22:58:35  <frosch123> or better glass?
23:00:35  <krinn> what's the party date ?
23:00:54  <frosch123> we are waiting for your suggestions
23:00:59  <frosch123> you're the host after all
23:01:05  <krinn> lol
23:01:15  <krinn> i don't even know what a r26k party is
23:01:16  <Eddi|zuHause> Han "Rubidium" Solo?
23:01:36  <frosch123> @commit
23:01:36  <DorpsGek> frosch123: Commit by rubidium :: r26019 trunk/config.lib (2013-11-16 22:17:02 UTC)
23:01:37  <DorpsGek> frosch123: -Fix: copy-paste error in configure help
23:01:42  <glx> it's similar to a r25k party ;)
23:01:48  <frosch123> krinn: actually, we missed it :p
23:01:57  <Eddi|zuHause> or a r20k party
23:02:14  <Eddi|zuHause> @commit 26000
23:02:14  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Commit by zuu :: r26000 trunk/src/console_cmds.cpp (2013-11-14 22:50:16 UTC)
23:02:15  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: -Add: Optional filter parameter to the 'content state' console command, to limit the content list to only content where the name match the filter
23:02:32  <krinn> oh get it, a party when you raise a number between two letters ?
23:02:34  <Eddi|zuHause> was three days ago
23:03:04  <frosch123> krinn: it's just an arbitary excuse to eat some cake
23:03:10  <glx> krinn: http://www.openttd.org/en/screenshot/r10000/r10000
23:03:11  <Eddi|zuHause> actually it was a (r25+4)k party
23:03:16  <krinn> now that's a party frosch123 !
23:03:21  <Zuu> I had no idea that we were two revisions from 26k when I started to commit my two patches. I was just lucky(?) to get it :-)
23:04:20  <Eddi|zuHause> well otherwise someone could have "stolen" it like r10k :p
23:04:31  <glx> but @commit doesn't work for it IIRC
23:04:36  <glx> @commit 10000
23:04:36  <DorpsGek> glx: Commit r10000 doesn't exists
23:04:40  <krinn> glx this one (the pic) is nice
23:05:09  <frosch123> for some reason we have no public pictures from r20k and r25+4k
23:05:36  <Rubidium> yeah, the cake was nice ;)
23:06:02  <krinn> dunno for the taste, but what a work
23:06:08  <frosch123> indeed, krinn: if you want to host, pm has excellent baking skills
23:06:36  *** rknol [~oftc-webi@5352ECF3.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd
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23:06:43  <krinn> i wound't believe pm skills at bakery can do that
23:06:47  <rknol> is there any way to fix fullscreen in osx?
23:07:02  <zydeco> it works in nightly
23:07:10  <glx> yeah use a nightly
23:07:17  <rknol> will that connect to 1.3.2 server?
23:07:22  <glx> no
23:07:23  <LordAro> nope
23:07:23  <zydeco> no, it won't
23:07:27  <LordAro> ^^
23:07:30  <rknol> then that's not an option
23:07:55  <LordAro> glx: re r10000, yeah i looked into it, and it seems TB did something strange with the svn repo to skip it ;)
23:08:07  <LordAro> rknol: wait until april for 1.4.0 then ;)
23:08:19  <rknol> why has this been broken since like osx lion came out?
23:08:21  <zydeco> well, I suppose you could patch 1.3.2 with the new fullscreen
23:08:22  <frosch123> LordAro: not only tb
23:08:37  <frosch123> rb faked the complete history somewhat later
23:08:42  <glx> rknol: because apple likes to remove stuff that used to work
23:08:49  <rknol> zydeco: building on osx is hell
23:09:00  <zydeco> it is?
23:09:06  <krinn> rknol, or because noone have lion?
23:09:14  <LordAro> frosch123: the complete history?
23:09:16  <rknol> krinn: it's been broken for years
23:09:16  <LordAro> http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/changeset/10000/
23:09:30  *** rknol [~oftc-webi@5352ECF3.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit []
23:09:40  <glx> and OSX capable devs are rare
23:09:51  <glx> (or lazy)
23:09:52  <zydeco> you just need xcode and homebrew if you want to get the deps easily
23:09:54  <zydeco> or both
23:10:07  <Rubidium> at least in open source; they much more fancy writing i* Apps for money
23:10:45  <LordAro> apple is a major contributor to clang, which is quite nice (imo, i know you don't like it)
23:10:51  <Rubidium> zydeco: now, tell me how to compile OS X binaries on a server without paying 10+ years of donations
23:10:54  <LordAro> that's about the only thing though :)
23:11:07  <glx> Rubidium: follow TB tutorial ;)
23:11:15  <zydeco> I was talking about building *on* osx
23:11:20  <zydeco> :P
23:11:35  <Rubidium> glx: yeah, but... that doesn't work for *new* SDKs. At least since they jumped to clang
23:11:52  <glx> cross compiling for OSX is not an easy task
23:11:54  *** dfox [~dfox@94.142.237.120] has joined #openttd
23:12:02  <glx> for windows it's easy
23:12:10  <Rubidium> s/y/ier/ ;)
23:12:14  <LordAro> something happened here: http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/timeline?from=1970-01-01T00%3A00%3A00Z%2B0000&precision=second
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23:12:30  *** tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:12:38  <LordAro> how odd
23:12:47  <glx> even if our compile farm doesn't cross compile for windows
23:13:44  <frosch123> LordAro: do you know about leap seconds?
23:13:55  <glx> it used to
23:14:17  <frosch123> LordAro: or time travel? :p
23:14:24  <LordAro> :p
23:14:59  <zydeco> well I shall be gone
23:15:03  <Rubidium> that's a bug in svn something used to sync and modify the repository ;)
23:15:21  <Rubidium> modify as in rename /branch to /branches before some time
23:15:30  *** zydeco [~zydeco@169.67.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Miscellaneous hardware exception error]
23:15:33  <Rubidium> (for easier backtracking of stuff)
23:16:17  <LordAro> i figured it'd be something like that
23:16:25  <LordAro> or the nsa didn't like your commits :p
23:16:59  <frosch123> LordAro: do you know what happened between 1582-10-05 and 1582-10-14 ?
23:17:07  <glx> hehe
23:17:07  <krinn> the more commits the more datas, happy nsa
23:17:12  <Rubidium> frosch123: depends on the location
23:17:24  <frosch123> europe
23:17:46  <LordAro> frosch123: i thought it was different dates, might be different for europe
23:18:30  <krinn> don't want duckduck this, what happen ?
23:18:48  <glx> nothing krinn
23:19:14  <glx> really nothing
23:19:18  <frosch123> krinn: it's the superlative of a leap hour
23:20:12  <LordAro> switch from julian calender to gregorian calender
23:20:16  <krinn> oh shit i've search: europe loose 10 days
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23:21:05  <Rubidium> frosch123: was 1700 a leap year?
23:21:23  <frosch123> i don't think so
23:21:33  <glx> not divisible by 400
23:21:36  <Rubidium> it was for the Danish
23:21:39  <glx> so I'd say no
23:22:32  <Rubidium> after all, their February wasn't the standard 28 days ;)
23:22:53  <frosch123> hmm, sadly they didn't wait 400 years more
23:23:08  <frosch123> there could have been a leap-fortnight
23:23:36  <Zuu> Oh, some initial input controls for the story book: http://devs.openttd.org/~zuu/story-input.png :-)
23:24:07  <frosch123> Zuu: maybe we should start linking xulrunner :p
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23:24:43  <glx> outch
23:24:59  <frosch123> quite reticulus
23:25:13  <Rubidium> and resistance isn't futile?
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23:26:24  <Zuu> frosch123: hehe
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23:27:10  <alluke> all the idlers out at once
23:27:35  <Zuu> Given that GS run asynchronus and may take time to respond, I plan to make the submit button disable all the element and send an event to the GS. The GS then can re-enable the input elements if it want to allow user to submit the form again.
23:27:40  *** mode/#openttd [+v Belugas] by ChanServ
23:27:40  <Supercheese> yikes
23:28:32  <frosch123> Zuu: a submit button feels weird in the story book
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23:28:52  <frosch123> it's not a question window
23:29:02  <frosch123> it's a static window with text
23:29:31  <Zuu> How would you approach chapter selection in a tutorial then?
23:30:26  <Zuu> Having a submit button which by default disable the form for future input makes it kind of linear.
23:30:47  <Zuu> Eg. after submitting the form, the GS can add a new page depending on what the user selected.
23:31:07  <frosch123> well, what state does it display?
23:31:18  <Zuu> 'it'?
23:31:31  <frosch123> can you switch pages? does it reset the input entries if you did not submit?
23:31:39  <alluke> ...
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23:31:54  <Zuu> The input data is stored in the page element data which is stored in the save game.
23:32:19  <Zuu> So you can switch pages forward/backward and the input data is stored.
23:32:25  <frosch123> so, the input entry triggers processing by the gs immediately?
23:32:29  <frosch123> without any submit button
23:33:04  <frosch123> or is the button just a method to trigger an event? independent of the other entries?
23:33:16  <frosch123> you need to sync the entries across clients though
23:33:20  <Zuu> You could leave it out and make individual items send events. However, then the GS does not know when you are ready with inputs.
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23:33:26  <frosch123> so, you can as well notify the gs about the entries
23:34:04  <frosch123> well, that's the difference between the story book with static entries, and a question window
23:34:19  <frosch123> in a question window you can enter anything, but it only takes effect when you press a button
23:34:23  <krinn> hmmm kinda miss the speak, storypage change ?
23:34:36  <Zuu> @logs
23:34:36  <DorpsGek> Zuu: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
23:34:43  <frosch123> input elements in the storypage either have to take effect immediately, or you need to discard them somehow
23:35:11  <Zuu> You are right that I need to think more on how to sync over network than I had though so far.
23:37:17  <Zuu> However, I think from user point of view, having a submit button makes it clear that you send your input to the GS. The input fields will be disabled from more input (and be painted differently to indicate this). This is so that the user should know that it may expect some delay until the GS responds.
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23:37:44  <frosch123> yeah, but i wonder whether that should be a different window then
23:37:50  <krinn> Why not use the Goal.Question?
23:38:12  <frosch123> maybe the storybook could only have button controls
23:38:13  <Zuu> krinn: It doesn't support more than 3 answers and they must be one of 3 pre defined values.
23:38:43  <Eddi|zuHause>  <Zuu> @logs <- you have to be careful with that, as it only works if SpBot happens to be on the "correct" side of the netsplit :p
23:38:56  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: it is in this case
23:39:19  <frosch123> second netsplit only included lordaro, sacro and such weirdos :p
23:39:24  <Zuu> Also, I did wait on responding to frosch123 until the netsplit was over.
23:39:37  <LordAro> frosch123: nono, it contained you :p
23:39:58  <frosch123> LordAro: in both cases you were on the minority site
23:40:01  <frosch123> *side
23:40:24  <krinn> i think it should be GS event
23:40:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: so you need an "input box" for other kind of inputs like strings?
23:40:31  <LordAro> frosch123: *correct
23:40:33  <LordAro> :p
23:40:35  <frosch123> hmm, maybe not in the first one, it was kind of 60/60
23:41:34  <krinn> and another event send back from GS that uncheck the submit button: so until GS send the event, button is stuck pushed
23:41:36  <frosch123> hmm, if you want to make the input more interactive, i gueess gs have to learn about specific clients
23:41:49  <frosch123> you cannot popup a window on a specific client only currently
23:41:55  <frosch123> it's only company based
23:42:45  <frosch123> but i guess gs don't have the latency for interactive stuff anyway :s
23:42:50  <krinn> (to avoid maniac clickers)
23:43:15  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: in that case only the "window is shown" bit should be client-based, all other content should be synchronized between all clients of the company
23:43:19  *** DarkAceZ [~BillyMays@50.107.53.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:44:13  <Eddi|zuHause> and then something needs to be done to handle conflicting inputs
23:44:13  <Zuu> A tutorial style GS that can focus most/all resources on scanning for events, can give a response in matter of 0-1.5 seconds. Many other GS:es will often take longer to respond.
23:46:15  <krinn> if people want to speak to the GS, they knows the GS have its tasks to do, and answer when it can, i don't see a problem there
23:46:56  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, just fill the new storybook page with "Calculating... (356/1124)
23:46:58  <Eddi|zuHause> "
23:47:05  <krinn> :D
23:47:12  <glx> krinn: never trust the users
23:47:36  <krinn> glx: hence my suggest that GS trigger event to unlock the pushed state of the submit
23:47:38  <Zuu> But it may be that adding more advanced questions to the story book is the wrong path. Maybe GSGoal.Question need an extended brother which allow abritary amount of answer options. Though to render that you may end up with something similar to the story book :-p
23:49:01  <Zuu> It depends on how you see it. If questions to your company is seen as part of the company story or not.
23:49:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: that may be possible, in the storybook have a button "answer this question" which pops up a question window, and closing that window will submit the data
23:49:22  <Zuu> If a GS don't like to spam the story book with questions, it can remove the page when it is done with it.
23:50:39  <krinn> i think the goal.question do the task, adding question to storybook and people may just never see them
23:50:54  <frosch123> Zuu: maybe Forms can be defined independent, and then question and/or storybook pages can include Form references :p
23:51:15  <Zuu> A nice thing with the Story Book (when the tutorial eventually get migrated to it) is that you can move it to where you want it on the screen, and then it stays there. For things that open a new window for every thing users will need to live with having it in the centre of the screen.
23:51:35  <Wolf01> 'night
23:51:39  *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
23:51:43  <frosch123> but either way: i think the data needs to be discarded if the page becomes invisbile
23:52:01  <frosch123> the form could encode all content into some json string which can be send via a signle submit command
23:52:11  <Zuu> So, store input data in the gui window class, and upon submit send it to the GS.
23:53:20  <krinn> that's what browser do
23:53:23  <frosch123> yeah, i think so. some kind of one-time-use form. locked after submit on all clients. the gs then has to delete it, and either add some static content, or recreate the form
23:53:49  <krinn> better make submit form only company base
23:53:57  <frosch123> but we need some better way to submit commands
23:54:04  <frosch123> p1 and p2 just don't cut it :p
23:54:15  <krinn> a global submit form and you must handle player1 typing "that" and player2 keep delete it to type "this"
23:54:15  <Eddi|zuHause> interactive stuff really should be client-based, not company-based
23:54:18  <frosch123> and if you want to display multiple strings, you are completely lost
23:54:34  <Zuu> I saw that the last copy-paste patch in the development forum abuse the text parameter to send the whole copy buffer in a DoComand.
23:54:54  <frosch123> yeah, but the text param is not particulary long either
23:55:15  <Eddi|zuHause> is there a limit?
23:55:33  <glx> packet size I guess
23:55:50  <Eddi|zuHause> packet size doesn't really matter for TCP
23:56:28  <Eddi|zuHause> if data is larger than MTU, it just gets split into several packets
23:56:45  <Eddi|zuHause> and transparently reassembled at the other end
23:57:49  <Zuu> An alternative form solution is that when a input form element is clicked on any client, a DoCommand is used to update that data on all clients. At this moment a GS could probe the data to detect the form state. However, when the submit button is clicked, the form is locked and an event is sent to the GS.
23:58:56  <Zuu> Then each client on the same company get synchronized (the submit button nedes to be a DoCommand too). And the amonut of data to send in each DoCommand is low.
23:59:49  <krinn> but updating just a drop down list selection will send docommand on all client no?

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