Log for #openttd on 17th November 2013:
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00:00:01  <krinn> and what when 2 clients try to pickup a diff choice in that drop down list
00:00:01  <Zuu> A GS author can then if he/she wish omitt the submit button if the form control is more or less used as a setting rather than data that you send in a form.
00:00:43  <Zuu> If two clients tries to do different things in the same tick, then just one of them wins.
00:01:51  <glx> like for new vehicle preview
00:01:54  <Zuu> If there are more than one client on the same company, they will need to use chat to decide what to do.
00:02:06  <frosch123> hmm, but you are right about the storybook
00:02:16  <frosch123> the question window is kind of stupid in multiplayer
00:02:22  <frosch123> because it popups on all clients
00:02:34  <frosch123> in the storybook the initiative to enter something comes from the player
00:03:15  <krinn> frosch123, wouldn't change, as the GS would need to popup the storybook if it expect an answer, it should show a question is asked
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00:04:05  <frosch123> krinn: not necessary. it can have multiple pages, and you can reopen it, and choose a page to enter something
00:04:12  <frosch123> from potential mutiple pages with entries
00:04:18  <krinn> no question asked, no answer given, and without showing it, the question is not really asked, just wrote
00:05:25  <krinn> frosch123: then your question is delay until the user open the storybook and see a question exists
00:05:48  *** DarkAceZ [~BillyMays@] has joined #openttd
00:05:49  <frosch123> well, you kind of have the option to not answer a question :)
00:05:54  <frosch123> resp. choose from multiple questions
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00:06:34  <Eddi|zuHause> random unrelated idea: a GS->NewGRF interface: NewGRFs get a "GS callback", the GS can call this with 32 bit parameter, the NewGRF has the GS short-ID in extra_callback_info1 and the 32bit data in extra_callback_info2
00:07:08  <frosch123> and who shall use that?
00:07:14  <Eddi|zuHause> no idea
00:07:18  <frosch123> :p
00:07:34  <krinn> a GS that want change param of a newGRF
00:07:36  <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: Does that callback return a value back to GS?
00:08:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: either 15bit callback result or "callback failed"
00:08:17  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: or possibly 32bit via a 0x100+ register
00:08:58  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if the latter was ever implemented
00:09:18  <Zuu> Recently a specialised GS for FIRS was released. It could perhaps use that to implement some wishes from andy (as long as he cooperate)
00:09:19  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i think you are better off defining a fixed interface, rather than a generic binary data exchange
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00:10:54  <Eddi|zuHause> imagine something like the "offer each company a different set of engines" idea
00:11:01  <krinn> per exemple i see FIRS output 3t per 8t manufacturing supplies delivered, and a GS would be able to alter that ratio
00:11:46  <Eddi|zuHause> the GS could first query the newgrf how many sets it would provide, then ask the company the question who wants which set
00:11:54  <frosch123> krinn: globally or per industry?
00:12:08  <Eddi|zuHause> and then use this callback to decide which engine would be in which set
00:12:20  <Eddi|zuHause> (call the callback with each engine id)
00:12:23  <krinn> frosch123, i don't know, per industry will allow finer control
00:13:24  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: i don't think you can alter parameters at that stage anymore, only "storage" (which is more limited in scope)
00:13:31  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: well, neither newgrf nor gs can restrict engiens per company
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00:13:47  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but it could be implemented for GS
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00:14:01  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i think it would be fairly easy to do
00:14:02  <Zuu> There is a FS task about that with a proposal that was discussed some time ago.
00:14:19  <Zuu> I think I even got some code started for it.
00:14:31  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: game has already a bitmask for each company, but only sets the values "nobody", "only one" or "all"
00:15:07  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: a GS taking control over prototypes and availability would just need to set this bitmask
00:15:50  <krinn> i suppose newGRF can see what company query it no ? (to gave a color if company1 is building a vehicle or color2 for company2...)
00:16:12  <frosch123> colors?
00:16:17  <frosch123> there are company colors
00:16:27  <frosch123> what's the relation? :p
00:16:42  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: no, recolouring is handled by the game, the newgrf just returns a list of different colours
00:16:55  <Zuu> FS task: (it discuss mainly callback vs API)
00:17:09  <krinn> i was wondering if newGRF can knows what company is doing action on it
00:18:08  <krinn> and if yes, it can then allow/disallow a vehicle and then a GS can send him a 15bit with 0/1 to enable that vehicle per company : you endup with the GS allowing certain vehicle or not for a company
00:18:14  <frosch123> krinn: most of newgrf is stateless
00:18:20  <frosch123> they do not "save" stuff
00:18:44  <krinn> well once disallow, the newGRF state remain off, until GS resend a ON state
00:19:12  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the advantage of pure binary exchange is that a programmer controlling both GS and GRF developments can just use it without conflicting with anyone else's ideas
00:19:15  <frosch123> that would be a pure gs<->ottd interface, without newgrf involvement
00:19:41  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, except there is not even a way to download a gs with a specific md5sum
00:19:55  <frosch123> not for any of the involved elements to check versions or presence of the other
00:20:31  <frosch123> anyway, you could define a mapping between parameters and string identifies via a14
00:20:32  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: so the callback must be called in a DoCommand, so it's synchronized on all clients
00:20:37  <Zuu> with musa it is possible to make the GS depend on the NewGRF or the other way around. Cyclic dependencies are however not supported by musa.
00:20:49  <frosch123> so the gs chould pass a regular squirrel table variable
00:21:16  <frosch123> and ottd can convert it to a callback, checking the validitiy of the table members, and also the callback result could be converted to a squirrel table
00:21:38  <frosch123> Zuu: try to load a savegame where you do not have the right script version installed
00:21:49  <frosch123> there is no "download missing scripts" option
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00:21:52  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: what's the use of a table if you can only exchange 32/15bit?
00:22:17  <Zuu> frosch123: I guess, as script author I never have run into that problem.
00:22:18  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: you have a string keyword for the variable, which defiens the format
00:22:35  <frosch123> a newgrf can easiyl return 16 32 bit values
00:23:17  <frosch123> you could also pass more than 2 32bit values depending on the context
00:23:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess i'm missing some bits of context there
00:23:44  <frosch123> Zuu: really? you cannot exactly load a savegame from the forums which contains ais
00:24:02  <frosch123> if you do not already have a matching ai, it won't succeed continueing the game
00:24:10  <frosch123> i run into that with every fs savegame
00:24:12  <krinn> frosch123, result in loading latest version of the script
00:24:39  <frosch123> krinn: or a random other ai
00:24:45  <krinn> one that might not be compatible with the newgrf if the GS don't care
00:24:48  <Zuu> frosch123: For AIs IIRC TrueBrain made it so that it picks a random AI. But maybe that has been removed due to being impopular among AI authors.
00:24:55  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that's quite an oversight?
00:25:11  <frosch123> Zuu: well, for ai it does not matter much. but a gs savegame is simply broken
00:25:45  <krinn> it load random GS if it can't find the one in the save ?
00:25:57  <frosch123> you cannot share scenarios on the forums which use gs
00:26:02  <Zuu> Loading random GS doesn't make much sense
00:26:05  <frosch123> beause there is no easy way to get the right gs
00:26:28  <Zuu> And if you share them on bananas, you need to learn musa.
00:26:41  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i had assumed it would work like with NewGRFs, i.e. "get ID/md5 from bananas before load"
00:26:51  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: that part is missing
00:27:03  <Eddi|zuHause> implement it!
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00:28:25  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, noone fixes the basics :)
00:28:46  <krinn> the MD5 is not something i would like, even i see the ID usage
00:29:16  <krinn> use the ID from the AI so any AI with that ID is loaded, so openttd can match an AI with that ID but still load the latest version found
00:29:56  <krinn> i dunno the GetShortName to find the AI ID
00:30:05  <frosch123> the savegame contains the script name (not the 4 byte id funnily enough) and the version (not the md5sum)
00:30:16  <frosch123> both are things that bananas does not know about
00:31:13  <krinn> the savegame could contain the shortname and no version, GS/AI get the savename version it use by the save, upto them to allow compatiblity
00:31:28  <krinn> it won't crash openttd, the AI/GS will crash maybe
00:32:25  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: anyway, you need to get deep down into either ottd savegames, or bananas to fix that
00:32:28  <frosch123> it
00:32:53  <frosch123> there are like 3 ways to identify scripts :p
00:32:54  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: but we have no clue whether the progammer was competent enough to get the GS/AI compatible to loading savegames made with older versions
00:32:59  <frosch123> and everyone uses some other method
00:33:43  <Eddi|zuHause> we also have no useful way to update a NewGRF with a "compatible" one
00:33:45  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, yes but unlike newGRF openttd won't crash, only the GS/AI : and if the script dev don't want his script trash by user because any newer version cannot load previous one, he will do the job
00:33:48  <frosch123> it's like fs#5662, only worse :p
00:34:15  <frosch123> krinn: a gs crash ruins a savegame just as well
00:34:28  <krinn> yes, but not because of openttd
00:34:35  <krinn> blame is on the script maker
00:34:38  <frosch123> does not matter for the player
00:34:40  <Eddi|zuHause> you either have developer tools deactivated, then only exact match works, or you have developer tools activated, then you can only change by removing and adding new, but this circumvents the compatibility check alltogether
00:35:12  <frosch123> oh, indeed. without dev tools you cannot load a savegame if you do not have matching grfs
00:35:13  <krinn> frosch123, he does as he knows who has done the shitty thing
00:35:15  <frosch123> for gs noone checks that
00:35:18  <Eddi|zuHause> so the "compatible version" bit of action14 is essentially useless
00:35:31  <frosch123> you can load a savegame wihtout having the gs just fine
00:35:35  <frosch123> it will just not work
00:36:00  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: why?
00:36:31  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the only place it's checked is when you have developer tools active and deleted the old version
00:36:41  <frosch123> no?
00:37:08  <frosch123> it's for singleplayer with dev disabled, and loading a savegame with "compatible" newgrf
00:37:13  <Zuu> frosch123: If I load a game when the GS is unavailable, the game loads fine. The only way that I see that it did not find the GS is by opening the GS debug window.
00:37:23  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: if you manually update through the newgrf configuration window, it's never displayed whether it's compatible or not
00:37:35  <frosch123> Zuu: all the goals and storybook stuff remains
00:37:37  <Zuu> (which I have a hotkey for - but most users does probably not even know that it exist)
00:37:47  <frosch123> all town texts and growth stuff remains
00:37:51  <Zuu> yep
00:38:00  <frosch123> so the savegame is essentially broken
00:38:16  <Zuu> Broken but without even a notice
00:38:31  <frosch123> yeah :p
00:38:35  <krinn> but user can download any version of the script and the savegame became ok (if the script loading part is compatible)
00:38:36  <frosch123> newgrf at least crash :p
00:39:02  <frosch123> krinn: i am not even sure whether the gs name is displayed anywhere
00:39:04  <Eddi|zuHause> the only way i have ever managed to make a newgrf crash is when modifying the file while it's loaded
00:39:38  <Zuu> krinn: Only if the user does not save the game loaded (where no GS is found)
00:40:06  <Eddi|zuHause> openttd open => recompile newgrf => forget to hit "reload_newgrfs" => unpause game => BANG!
00:40:20  <Zuu> Eg. if the user load it, continue, save and then later realize that it misses the GS then he/she is lost unless he/she has the original save backed up.
00:40:24  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: unlink the file before modifying :p
00:40:36  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i have a symlink
00:40:51  <krinn> Zuu: this won't happen if openttd kept the GS/AI shortname in the savegame
00:41:19  <Eddi|zuHause> from newgrf/test/cets.grf to development/cets/cets.grf
00:41:20  <krinn> Zuu: even if it is missing, previous savegame need "AAAH" when saving save script is "AAAH"...
00:41:29  <Zuu> krinn: I'm sure there is ways to improve this. Just telling how it works right now.
00:41:58  <Zuu> Perheps better store its uniqueid rather than just the short name.
00:42:02  <krinn> well someone has gave me a nice hint to help debug my GS: save/load and new functions/change are there
00:42:15  <krinn> with MD5, this won't work
00:42:17  <frosch123> krinn: the problem is that there are like 3 names for a script. the name, the shortname and the interface name or so
00:42:37  <frosch123> originally the short name was meant for identifying a script, and afaik that is also written in the documentation
00:42:45  <frosch123> but funnily it is nowhere used in ottd afaik
00:42:53  <frosch123> for some reason ottd uses the normal name everywhere
00:43:05  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: no, this then needs a new development function to update GS/AI mid-game
00:43:12  <Zuu> Except for libraries where it use the GetInstanceName :-)
00:43:22  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: but "normal users" will never have that situation
00:43:23  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, until i get the reload function :P
00:43:23  <frosch123> someone tm needs to clean that up, before "get scripts from bananas" will be anywhere near possible
00:44:15  <Zuu> At least the shortname is enforced to be unique on bananas. But yes OpenTTD would need to store that.
00:44:43  <krinn> and shortname usage can be enforce by GSInfo API: missing no init
00:45:06  <krinn> i'm not sure it's not already the case
00:45:07  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: and then you need to figure out how to add that to the NewGRF/missing content GUI
00:46:29  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, when you click load game: it says companies name, it could output script name instead of companies names
00:47:00  <Zuu> I wouldn't remove company names, but rather add info about script there
00:47:13  <krinn> 1: thatcompany (missing DCTR)
00:47:50  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: i mean there is a button there "show newgrfs", and in the same or a similar place it should display ALL needed content
00:48:44  <krinn> when loading i have find missing content online, and newGRF settings
00:49:00  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
00:49:05  <krinn> the 1st indeed show what to get to fill the gap, the other just show the one i own
00:49:17  <krinn> script can be shown in the missing content online as well no ?
00:49:40  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly
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00:52:28  <krinn> unlike newGRF, script have info about their own save version in the savegame, allowing them to handle older savegame, hence why newer script version isn't has problematic has a newGRF that (i suppose) is blind vs a savegame
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00:52:52  <frosch123> krinn: actually no
00:52:57  <frosch123> newgrf have that information
00:53:27  <frosch123> newgrf improved a lot, because incompatibility was always so severe
00:53:33  <frosch123> scripts are lacking behind
00:54:13  <frosch123> they are not popular enough
00:54:22  <frosch123> or something
00:54:27  <krinn> well, never saw openttd crash because a script doesn't load an old savegame
00:54:56  <frosch123> exactly. but that is why newgrf improved
00:54:59  <Zuu> The game will not crash, but the save game is broken if the GS cannot be found.
00:55:03  <frosch123> and nowadays newgrf are better than scripts
00:55:37  <krinn> Zuu just because openttd forget it when saving again, something it could rerecord even without the script presence to help next loading
00:55:57  <frosch123> in 2009 scripts were better than newgrf, but since then nothing much happened about script save/load
00:56:31  <krinn> well, i don't see what scripts need for loading? they have all they need
00:56:56  <frosch123> krinn: just that you cannot get the right script for your save
00:57:02  <frosch123> unless you already have it
00:57:20  <Zuu> or unless the last one on bananas is compatible
00:57:26  <frosch123> and if you load it with a wrong script, you do not notice, and your game is jsut ruined
00:57:27  <Zuu> and you know which GS to download
00:58:01  <frosch123> krinn: or take sillicon valley. i fixed some spelling erros in the description somewhen
00:58:11  <frosch123> during that the library dependency was lost
00:58:29  <Zuu> Ah, yes you should never edit a bananas entry
00:58:30  <frosch123> it was not possible to readd the same library version, and the new version was incompatible or so
00:58:47  <frosch123> so, i actually had to upload a new version, just with an dupdated version requirement for the library
00:59:06  <krinn> well, don't blame script for bananas trouble
00:59:26  <frosch123> sorry, but i only consider the big picture
01:00:16  <Zuu> In the GS you can define the min version to load. When uploading you do need to care about if any of your dependencies has uploaded a new version and update your import statement. If you want to stay with old library versions, now musa can do this.
01:00:28  <Zuu> But yes, there are many pitfalls :-)
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01:04:36  <frosch123> night :)
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01:04:44  <Zuu> yeah it's getting late
01:04:46  <Zuu> light
01:04:49  <Zuu> night*
01:05:11  <krinn> yeah, and tbh that pitfall can be avoid just by removing the edit button on bananas
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07:16:52  <LuHa> Hello, who can give me talk-right at ?
07:17:10  <Supercheese> Probably people who are not awake right now, but we'll see
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08:10:59  <LuHa> omg, sorry.
08:11:08  <LuHa> i lost voice right in .dev :(
08:11:10  <LuHa> sorry
08:12:20  <LuHa> can i pemerat voice right? i resister, identify by nickserv
08:12:20  <Supercheese> Yeah, apparently if you don't register AND identify with Nickserv, the permission is only temporary
08:12:23  <Supercheese> it's very annoying
08:15:08  <LuHa> yeah.. i register and identify nickserv but my permission is temp..
08:47:48  <Supercheese> there we go again, guess  I have to request voice at .dev, this time I'm registered and identified, we'll see if it'll stick around
08:48:11  <planetmaker> done
08:48:34  <planetmaker> you should now also be auto-voiced if you enter the channel (same with luha)
08:48:38  <Supercheese> here's hoping
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09:06:44  <planetmaker> moin Alberth
09:07:04  <Alberth> hi hi
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09:13:02  <Supercheese> good night
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09:23:26  <Alberth> is there a description of what AI and GS can do with respect to (translatable) strings ?
09:24:14  <planetmaker> I don't know a good one
09:25:19  <Alberth> zuu should know :p
09:29:17  <Alberth> this monthly delivery check of towns is highly annoying
09:30:20  <Alberth> just one day too late, and it doesn't grow :(
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09:30:55  <planetmaker> yeah
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09:38:06  <Wolf01> hello
09:38:52  <Alberth> moin
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10:13:57  <Zuu> Alberth: AIs cannot use translatable strings
10:14:07  <Zuu> GSes can, but have a subset of all translation features.
10:14:23  <Zuu> I don't know of any wiki article or so that document what this subset is.
10:14:23  <Alberth> moin :)
10:14:54  <Zuu> I tend to look in the source code for the list of {PARAM}:s and try it out if it works in GS. :-)
10:15:03  <Zuu> Oh and hello :-)
10:15:40  <Alberth> ok, thanks
10:16:13  <Zuu> I have heard that geneders and/or plurals may not work in GS, but I don't really know as I'm not too used with those concepts in the translation system.
10:18:03  <Alberth> untranslated AIs make sense, as players don't talk to each other normally
10:18:16  <Alberth> the only thing to translate is the readme
10:19:40  <Alberth> I haven't yet looked into the problems that may arise in adding support
10:23:20  <Zuu> I didn't consider the readme when I saw your question.
10:23:41  <Zuu> What may be useful is to allow settings to be translatable. (both for AIs and GS)
10:26:02  <Zuu> That requires that the language files are loaded in the game menu. If the same way to refer to translations is used as in the game, then the GS need to be able to refer to them in the code that is executed when OpenTTD scanns for GS/AI. Thus giving an overead when scanning for AI/GS unless the GetSettings method is delayed and import of translations is also delayed.
10:28:28  <Alberth> ah right, settings are also interesting to translate, I agree
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11:14:00  <krinn> Zuu> I have heard that geneders and/or plurals may not work in GS: didn't test gender, but plurals works
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11:24:48  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26020 /branches/1.3 (7 files in 6 dirs) (2013-11-17 11:24:39 UTC)
11:24:49  <DorpsGek> [1.3] -Backport from trunk:
11:24:50  <DorpsGek> - Fix: [Windows] Conditional expression with enumeral with non-enumeral type (r26009)
11:24:51  <DorpsGek> - Fix: Game script showing vehicle on e.g. a goal, then the vehicle being removed and eventually being replaced by a non-user vehicle (most likely smoke) causing an assertion to trigger [FS#5804] (r26007, r26006)
11:24:53  <DorpsGek> - Fix: Crash when transferring savegame from server to client [FS#5478] (r26005)
11:29:54  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Commit by rubidium :: r26021 /branches/1.3 (9 files in 3 dirs) (2013-11-17 11:29:44 UTC)
11:29:55  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: [1.3] -Backport from trunk:
11:29:56  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: - Fix: Crash when the ICU layouter thinks a font is corrupted [FS#5711] (r26018, r26017, r26016, r26015)
11:29:57  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: - Fix: Having trains miss a platform that is just being modified is less of a problem than having trains stop twice without moving [FS#5684] (r26013)
11:29:59  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: - Fix: --help text of ./configure for packages that require pkg-config (r26011)
11:30:00  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: (...)
11:30:12  <peter1138> Why does it start telling TrueBrain? :p
11:30:43  <Rubidium> I think it always does when a certain number of lines is reached
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11:43:49  <LordAro> well, can't let him miss out on the improtant backports ;)
11:45:29  <Terkhen> hello
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11:51:38  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26022 /branches/1.3/src/video/cocoa ( (2013-11-17 11:51:33 UTC)
11:51:39  <DorpsGek> [1.3] -Fix: missing OS X headers
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12:05:46  <DorpsGek> Commit by michi_cc :: r26023 trunk/src/video/cocoa/ (2013-11-17 12:05:40 UTC)
12:05:47  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5805] (r25686): [OSX] Checking for a valid NSTextInputContext is supposed to fail on 10.4 according to docs, but somehow didn't, leading to a crash when an edit box lost focus.
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12:45:13  <planetmaker> krinn, well... if there's an excuse to bake a cake and a little time, I'm usually in ;-)
12:45:37  <planetmaker> speaking of it... need to deliver a cake right now :-) See you tonight
12:45:45  <krinn> lol
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12:53:04  <Rubidium> planetmaker: but... you don't know my address, so how can you deliver it?
12:58:17  <__ln__> "rubidium, netherlands", that should do it
12:59:47  <krinn> he's good at making cake?
13:02:54  <krinn> ok, i think i have my answer :)
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13:08:21  <frosch123> Alberth: ais have nothing translatable at all
13:08:27  <frosch123> gs settings are not translatable
13:08:42  <frosch123> gs stuff in game is translatable using similar languag efiles as ottd
13:08:45  <frosch123> plural is supported
13:08:51  <frosch123> genders and cases are not supported
13:09:25  <frosch123> gs lang files are compiled using strgen
13:10:17  <krinn> {SKIP} doesn't work but {STRING} works
13:10:54  <krinn> {CURRENCY} doesn't work but {CURRENCY_SHORT} works
13:11:47  <frosch123> i believe the string commands are actually exactly the same as for ottd lang files
13:11:59  <frosch123> krinn: where are you looking?
13:12:08  <frosch123> SKIP is deprecated and removed for long
13:12:16  <frosch123> currency also does not exist for ages
13:12:26  <krinn> in my own GS and that doc as ref :
13:12:53  <frosch123> <- those are the string codes
13:13:05  <frosch123> with the restriction of gender/cases not working for gs
13:13:16  <frosch123> all the wiki stuff is unmaintained
13:13:23  <krinn> ah
13:13:23  <Rubidium> krinn: I don't even know that page
13:13:35  <krinn> :P i dig where i can
13:13:40  <Rubidium> when was CURRENCY64 been removed?
13:14:11  <Alberth>   created an issue for it
13:14:21  <krinn> i avoid using any 64 as i can't know if openttd run 32 or 64 from squirrel, must assume always 32
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13:16:07  <Rubidium> CURRENCY64 has been gone since 2007
13:16:19  <Rubidium> so that page is AT LEAST 6 years out-of-date
13:16:43  <krinn> last edit is 26 dec 2012
13:17:40  <Alberth> you don't really think every edit updates the entire page, do you?
13:18:08  <krinn> of course not, but tbh, i didn't check edit page until 2s
13:18:56  <krinn> there's no other doc, assuming this one is update then
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13:35:54  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26024 /branches/1.3 (33 files in 8 dirs) (2013-11-17 13:35:48 UTC)
13:35:55  <DorpsGek> [1.3] -Backport: number of prerequisites for key handling fixes/improvements
13:53:39  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26025 /branches/1.3/src (11 files in 2 dirs) (2013-11-17 13:53:33 UTC)
13:53:40  <DorpsGek> [1.3] -Fix: get hotkeys working again
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13:58:47  <frosch123> <- usually the "funny pictures" on spiegel are terrible, but this one is great :)
13:59:22  <frosch123> (sorry, german)
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14:05:41  <LordAro> @topic get 5
14:05:41  <DorpsGek> LordAro: English only
14:05:42  <LordAro> :p
14:21:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i think the forum just died...
14:22:26  <LordAro> again?
14:24:29  <Eddi|zuHause> well, first it was fast, then it was slow, and then i hit a timeout on submit
14:24:53  <Eddi|zuHause> and then frosch123 was faster than me
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14:38:47  <peter1138> Is there ever anything interesting on there anyway?
14:48:18  <LordAro> occasionally
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15:27:09  <LordAro> planetmaker: you got a reply:
15:36:10  <krinn> i hope someone will look at 5656, it's a badass for AI
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15:48:27  <RainbowNines> Afternoon chaps. Anyone knocking about?
15:54:45  <Zuu_> Based on the discussion last night about script names, I made a wiki article that documents some of the problems and proposes some solutions:
15:56:11  <krinn> hi RainbowNines
15:56:18  <krinn> Zuu_, going look at it
15:56:57  *** Zuu_ is now known as Zuu
15:56:58  <RainbowNines> hi krinn.
15:57:39  <frosch123> Zuu: yeah, i guess the first step would be to just save shortname and md5sum as well
15:57:55  <frosch123> (no need to remove saving the name)
15:58:07  <frosch123> that should give us more options for fixing stuff
15:59:03  <Zuu> In short time, with also having md5sum we can get something up quickly that get exactly that version from bananas. With more work (verifying equal version in bananas + script), more advanced things can be acomplished
15:59:25  <Kjetil> time to go bananas
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16:01:49  <krinn> i still think md5 script will have the effect that openttd will load dictatorai 1.0 instead of latest from bananas: of course it will make sure that dictatorai can load this savegame, but it will force the user to only use that version.
16:01:56  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26026 trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp (2013-11-17 16:01:50 UTC)
16:01:57  <DorpsGek> -Fix (r25648) [FS#5775-ish]: Invalidate vehicle colour palette again when rearranging consist, reversing, ...
16:02:45  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26027 trunk/src/vehicle.cpp (2013-11-17 16:02:39 UTC)
16:02:46  <DorpsGek> -Change [FS#5669-ish]: [NewGRF] Invalidate vehicle colour palette when leaving a station.
16:02:53  <krinn> and any new script version would be only used with a new game : if dctr v1 have a bug, because of the md5 mark: people even updating dctr to latest version with the fix won't have choice and play with the buggy version
16:03:25  <Zuu> krinn: with md5sum we get a key into bananas data base. It is possible to also fetch the last version of the same content. However, it is only when the content is downloaded that OpenTTD can determine if the last version is compatible.
16:03:27  <LordAro> lots of commits in the last couple of days :)
16:03:46  <Zuu> Unless bananas is going to inspect the version compatibility value.
16:04:25  <krinn> well, i speak about tagging md5 for script within savegame
16:05:02  <Zuu> I don't speak about removing using the last compatible version.
16:05:51  <krinn> and if openttd load "script that" or better "script unique shortname" from a save : it must reput it on saving, even the script wasn't found
16:06:29  <Zuu> OpenTTD would use short name (like it today use name), version and compatible version to try to find the best compatible version locally. The md5sum is only used if that fails and it needs to go to the fruit store to find the script.
16:06:34  <krinn> this will remove the "i load a scenerio" with "AATC" but don't have the script, and now that i have save it, openttd doesn't load "AATC" gamescript with it even i have provide it
16:11:11  <Zuu> I've mentioned this problem now in the problems section on the wiki.
16:11:29  <krinn> zuu: about lib i don't think you need to tag savegame with them: if user use "TTCC" GS that import superlib, but newer "TTCC" no more use it, openttd will try download superlib for nothing as newer "TTCC" no more use it
16:12:05  <Zuu> I don't know really if it is good to solve it as you propose, or if it is better to just make it clear to the usre that the script couldn't be loaded and that they should obtain the script and re-load the game (without saving).
16:12:05  <krinn> and i think if old "TTCC" don't need superlib, but newer "TTCC" this time add it as dep, openttd if i remember well, already offer to download superlib
16:13:53  <Zuu> If script authors manage deps correctly, there is no need to have a library identifier available (either from Import() or saved in game) that can be used as a key into the bananas database.
16:14:41  <Zuu> As I wrote in the wiki, I'm not sure that part is needed. But I brought it up as there may still be (weak) arguments to do something about it for consistency
16:15:15  <Zuu> Also, we have seen many cases where users can't use script XYZ becauses missing libraries.
16:16:17  <Vadtec> for trains, is it better to have big trains that wait at the stations to fill up and make massive delievries, or smaller trains that grab what they can to make small deliveries?
16:16:47  <krinn> and if openttd target all their shortname : DCTR need SPLB - SPLB need SCP_ : try download DCTR and openttd will add SPLB and SCP_ too
16:17:01  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26028 trunk/os/windows/installer/install.nsi (2013-11-17 16:16:55 UTC)
16:17:02  <Zuu> krinn> this will remove the "i load a scenerio" with "AATC" but don't have the script, and now that i have save it, openttd doesn't load "AATC" gamescript with it even i have provide it <--- As script author, would you like to debug problems related to changed game state over perhaps many years where the game has been running without your script active?
16:17:02  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5773]: make the installer warning about Windows XP SP3 not trigger on the 64 bit Windows XP which isn't really Windows XP to start with
16:17:07  <frosch123> Vadtec: more engines have more running cost. longer trains have longer loading times which adds to the delivery time, and thus gives less income
16:18:46  <Vadtec> frosch123: i was referring to cargo capacity rather than the number of engines, its just i have one train that doesnt seem to be making a profit either way, even though its route should be long enough to allow for full loads and a decent payout
16:18:50  <Vadtec> its rather baffling
16:19:12  <krinn> Zuu: that's the same if user cheat with date, and i keep doing that as debug, might cause problem for script handling time elapse by date range
16:22:33  <krinn> Zuu: to be safer it'll be better to stop openttd loading a game with missing script yeah and directly try to manage missing dep/script
16:23:04  <krinn> Zuu: you're right
16:27:36  <Eddi|zuHause> breaking bad spoiler:
16:29:01  <krinn> Zuu: how about Info::MinVersionToLoad : dctr 1.3=MinVersionToLoad==2 and dctr 1.4=MinVersionToLoad==2 mean for openttd it can use 1.4 as the save was done with a dctr version that use version 2
16:31:46  <Zuu> Could you re-word that with a bit more explicit examples. I have a hard time trying to see what you mean with eg. "dctr 1.3=MinVersionToLoad==2"
16:34:04  <krinn> take a user using dctrv1 using save/load version 2, user save the game. Now if user lack dctr bananas can look the latest dctr version that have MinVersionToLoad = 2 and so use that version. Bananas has found the script latest version that can load version 2 of its save format
16:35:10  <krinn> and if dctrv2 have version = 2 compatible, if dctrv3 have version = 3 set, incompatible...
16:35:11  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: problem with that is bananas knows neither the version nor the min compatible version
16:35:57  <krinn> well, bananas already read the info.nut to grab shortname version no?
16:36:01  <Alberth> Vadtec: shorter trains tend to arrive more often at the station, which is a plus. They also deliver the cargo faster. It does mean more trains, which adds costs.
16:36:07  <Zuu> It is a final solution to aim at, but needs some work on bananas. Bananas do not yet inspect that property of info.nut. Also note that inspections use just text parsing. Not actual execution of code. So that means that the min compatible version must be hard coded in info.nut and not stored in a global variable.
16:36:53  <Vadtec> Alberth: indeed, ultimately i simply removed that train and made another one stop at the troublesome station
16:36:54  <Zuu> krinn: Bananas read info.nut to grab shortname, which is why short name cannot be stored in a global variable if you upload it to bananas. The short name is then stored in the database.
16:36:58  <Vadtec> seems to have fixed the issue
16:37:19  <Zuu> Eg. info.nut is only read when you upload a file, but not later.
16:37:32  <krinn> Zuu, so it could also grab the MinVersionToLoad setting no?
16:37:42  <Alberth> Vadtec: but some industries just don't 'co-operate' very well, due to random variations, and extractive primary industries can only go down in production
16:37:55  <Zuu> So if you want to start using more stuff from it, you need to make a soluton that iterates over all existing content and grab that into the database.
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16:38:49  <Zuu> And you can grab MinVersionToLoad as long as all scripts just return a number (eg. not use a (global) variable with the value. Which may or may not be true.
16:39:02  <Vadtec> ummmm, every one of my plains literally just changed to "stopped"
16:39:14  <Vadtec> at least the ones that were at an airport
16:39:25  <Vadtec> how the hell did that happen?
16:39:26  <Zuu> But it needs someone interested in doing this work on bananas.
16:39:55  <Vadtec> bleh
16:39:58  <Vadtec> errant mouse click
16:40:05  <krinn> what bananas use?
16:40:10  <Zuu> django
16:40:19  <Zuu> (python)
16:40:51  <Zuu>
16:41:20  <krinn> ok thank you, having a look at it
16:45:48  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: consider this case: person X updates his script on bananas, but forgot to update the min compatible version. then he fixes this by uploading the next version with higher min compatible version. now since bananas cannot delete old versions, people will now and forever get a broken version for their older savegames
16:46:47  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, right, but it's the author fault, and it is HIS script that will bug
16:47:30  <Eddi|zuHause> sure, it's the author's "fault". but the problem is not that it's his fault, but that he cannot fix it.
16:48:01  <Eddi|zuHause> you avoid this problem if you always download the _exact_ version, not a supposedly "compatible" version
16:48:23  <Eddi|zuHause> 99% of users never need the "compatible" version anyway
16:48:25  <Zuu> He can edit the faulty version and disable it by setting max compatible OpenTTD version to something really row.
16:48:49  <Zuu> Which is a valid usage of the edit button (which can cause trouble in other cases)
16:48:52  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, if we consider your example, user will always download exact version 1 with bugs
16:48:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: no, that won't help for automatic dependency download
16:49:50  <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: I assumed that the user was not yet using the faulty version in his save, but the version before that.
16:50:34  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: and i mean the user opens a savegame where he doesn't have the script at all
16:51:10  <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise the problem of getting stuff from bananas doesn't arise in the first place
16:51:46  <Zuu> assuming that save is not using the faulty version, but a version earlier than that, a initial improvement over today would be able to grab etiher exactly that version or the last version (which may or may not be compatible)
16:51:46  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, in your suggest, user opening a game made with a buggy script version and bananas will download that buggy version instead of the latest without the bug that can load that version too
16:52:28  <Zuu> (today OpenTTD can't make any dependency download for missing scripts)
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16:54:40  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: but in this case the game was always played with this buggy version, so it doesn't get worse than before
16:55:20  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, yes it is, because if the user report the bug and i fixes it : nothing change for him
16:55:49  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, as of today, user report the bug, i fix it, and tell user update from bananas and reload : and tada fixed
16:55:58  <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: I asumed that OpenTTD would care about min/max compatible OpenTTD version when searching for missing content. At least when it looks for newer compatible content. But maybe that is where we are not thinkning the same way?
16:56:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: if looking for exact version to load for savegames, it ignores the version requirement
16:57:32  <Zuu> The easy way to handle scripts, is to do it that way using md5sum.
16:57:53  <Eddi|zuHause> that's what i say
16:58:02  <Zuu> Then if user go to online-content dialog it can also download the last version of the script. If it is lucky the last version can load it. If it is unlucky it cannot.
16:58:18  <Eddi|zuHause> but krinn wants the more flexible "search for compatible instead of exact version" way
16:58:42  <Zuu> It may then miss some intermediate versions that are newer but not the newest (if the newest cannot load the game), but these cases may be too rare to care about.
16:58:54  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly
17:00:26  <Zuu> Also, in my experience, there have been very few cases where I have had the need to disconnect version compatibility. Eg. for most of my scripts, the last version can load all past versions.
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17:01:49  <krinn> i'm not sure i get it: i was thinking you want use md5 to tag name with script version and bananas download that md5, now i see you speak bananas just download latest version
17:02:22  <Zuu> krinn: We are only discussing the case when OpenTTD cannot find a compatible version locally.
17:02:43  <Zuu> Eg. when I get a save game from you and you forgot to also give me the GS that you used.
17:03:16  <krinn> Zuu : It's acceptable for me to download latest existing verison of a script, even it might not be compatible with it
17:03:29  <krinn> i prefer that than download the exact same version
17:03:37  <Zuu> I think you are mixing up with the upgrade path used when you fetch the newest version using online content and then OpenTTD find a newer compatible version avaliable locally upon load.
17:04:37  <Zuu> "even it might not be compatible with it" OpenTTD will refuse to load using this script in the load dialog.
17:04:55  <krinn> what i'm really against is : save with scriptv1 md5 AAAA and openttd only wish to run the savegame with md5 AAAA : the top for me would be download latest "MinVersionToLoad=version in save" but i can live with latest script version
17:06:09  <RainbowNines> hi guys, dave here. i'm doing some graphics stuff. i've used GRF Codec to decompile the base opengfx file. but there's lots of pink... i'm guessing i've done something wrong. any tips?
17:06:58  <Zuu> No. It is saved with "AAAA", script version: 1, md5: XYZ... . It will first try to locally on your disk find the latest "AAAA" that can load version 1. Just like today. Only if this fails, it will use the md5sum to grab that exact version from bananas.
17:07:04  <krinn> RainbowNines, why not just use the source ?
17:07:25  <RainbowNines> *shrug* i'm "new" to this side of the game. how do you mean?
17:07:26  <Zuu> The reason why we need the md5sum is that while "AAAA" exist on bananas, bananas doesn't contain the script version.
17:07:58  <krinn> RainbowNines:
17:08:11  <Zuu> Because several script authors have figured out that they could put eg "2.5" in bananas and integer "5" in the script.
17:08:26  <DorpsGek> Commit by michi_cc :: r26029 /trunk/src (gfx_layout.cpp gfx_layout.h) (2013-11-17 17:08:20 UTC)
17:08:27  <DorpsGek> -Fix (r26017): The internal index of a character in the layout line depends on the used layouter.
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17:11:02  <RainbowNines> krinn: I'm a bit confused - where? I've looked all across that link...?
17:11:18  <krinn>
17:11:59  <Eddi|zuHause> RainbowNines: grfcodec has a "palette" option, try either "-p1" or "-p2"
17:12:13  <RainbowNines> thanks, both.
17:12:33  <FrenkyPohodar> I wish you a nice day. She appeared to me that is missing and I do not know what to do with it: UKRS2 must be load before this grf : ( Any advice, ideas?
17:12:37  <Eddi|zuHause> you need that same option on encoding
17:13:52  <krinn> FrenkyPohodar, in NewGRF settings, load UKRS2 then load the newGRF that complain
17:18:39  <RainbowNines> thanks krinn and Eddi|zuHause - working now!
17:18:57  <krinn> you're welcome, have fun
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17:27:59  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26030 /trunk/src/lang (54 files in 2 dirs) (2013-11-17 17:27:49 UTC)
17:28:00  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:28:01  <DorpsGek> italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
17:28:02  <DorpsGek> japanese - 3 changes by nex259
17:28:03  <DorpsGek> lithuanian - 1 changes by Stabilitronas
17:28:05  <DorpsGek> norwegian_bokmal - 14 changes by Trond, cuthbert
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17:30:47  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26031 /branches/1.3/src/lang (61 files in 2 dirs) (2013-11-17 17:30:42 UTC)
17:30:48  <DorpsGek> [1.3] -Backport from trunk: language updates
17:31:59  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26032 /branches/1.3 (6 files in 4 dirs) (2013-11-17 17:31:51 UTC)
17:32:00  <DorpsGek> [1.3] -Backport from trunk:
17:32:01  <DorpsGek> - Fix: The internal index of a character in the layout line depends on the used layouter (r26029)
17:32:02  <DorpsGek> - Fix: Make the installer warning about Windows XP SP3 not trigger on the 64 bit Windows XP which is not really Windows XP to start with [FS#5773] (r26028)
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17:36:05  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26033 /branches/1.3 (6 files in 4 dirs) (2013-11-17 17:36:00 UTC)
17:36:06  <DorpsGek> [1.3] -Update: some documentation
17:40:13  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26034 /tags/1.3.3-RC1 (3 files in 3 dirs) (2013-11-17 17:40:08 UTC)
17:40:14  <DorpsGek> -Release: 1.3.3-RC1
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17:50:14  <Eddi|zuHause> oooh!
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17:53:19  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: we need a news item, can you write one?
17:53:26  <frosch123> *please :)
17:53:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so
17:53:52  <frosch123> can you trick lordaro in writing one?
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17:55:37  <Eddi|zuHause> sorry, my level 3 telepathic skill is only passive, not active.
17:56:48  <rubenwardy> is it possible to change a setting: ie engine_renew_money, without restarting the game?
17:58:36  <Eddi|zuHause> some yes, some now
17:58:40  <Eddi|zuHause> -w
17:59:54  <Eddi|zuHause> engine_renew_money should be a company setting, so each player can change it in the advanced settings window
18:00:30  *** RainbowNines [] has quit []
18:04:57  <rubenwardy> Why is "drive on left" filtered out?
18:07:01  <Alberth> magic
18:08:19  <rubenwardy> I want to change "engine_renew_money"
18:08:36  <rubenwardy> I changed it in docs/openttd/openttd.cfg
18:08:39  <rubenwardy> but no effect
18:09:21  <frosch123> change it in game, not via config file
18:09:34  <rubenwardy> where?
18:09:57  <rubenwardy> It is not in "advanced settings"
18:10:18  <frosch123> it is
18:10:24  <frosch123> check the filters at the top
18:10:43  <rubenwardy> oh, company settings
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18:13:36  <LordAro> frosch123: my only area of (vague) expertise in new items is in crash logs ;)
18:14:51  <LordAro> i should finish that patch one day
18:17:35  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: not 'new', 'news'. as in article on the main page and forum
18:17:53  <LordAro> i meant news
18:17:55  <LordAro> :p
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18:24:38  <frosch123> LordAro:
18:24:56  <frosch123> only fixes, win9x should work again
18:25:04  <LordAro> :p
18:25:13  <LordAro> i'm actually writing up the wiki page now
18:25:19  <LordAro> it's sort of my job :)
18:25:27  <frosch123> hmm, damn, fair point :)
18:28:59  <LordAro> Rubidium/whoever: re 1.3.3-RC1 changelog, "layouting" isn't really a word, i think "layout would be better in this case
18:33:48  <LordAro> frosch123: here you go ;)
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19:47:29  <gatis> HI
19:47:41  <gatis> I am using Apple PowerPC G5
19:47:49  <gatis> Trying to install OpenTTD now
19:48:02  <gatis> I downloaded mac os x universal binary
19:48:19  <gatis> But game wont start
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19:50:13  <gatis> So universal binary for my mac G5 isnt working
19:50:18  <gatis> :(
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19:51:52  <gatis> I downloaded free graphics sound and music set
19:52:57  <gatis> I have crash.log where canj i see what causes an error?
19:54:06  <andythenorth> so is the UI moving to an XML definition?
19:54:16  <andythenorth> I mean, it has loads and loads of obvious benefits
19:54:39  <andythenorth> cos the first thing most people think about a game is 'how do I change the UI?'
19:55:39  <frosch123> it's definitely the first thing i think when installing a new os
19:55:56  <frosch123> we need ottd os
19:56:33  <gatis> Please check my crash report
19:56:37  <gatis>
19:57:40  <andythenorth> I know that Steve Jobs supervises my OS from beyond the grave
19:57:44  <andythenorth> so I have no need to change it ever
19:57:58  <andythenorth> it's instantly perfection, even if I don't realise it
19:58:36  <frosch123> gatis: maybe try a different version, 1.3.3-rc1, or if that fails as well, some older version
19:58:39  <frosch123> like 1.0 or 0.7
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19:59:21  <frosch123> there are hardly 3 big endian users in total, so you have to explore some more on your own
19:59:29  <andythenorth> Alberth: did you play any more ottd?  Got any Squid feedback? :)
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20:00:06  <Alberth> just the white pixel folowing one of the boats
20:00:11  <gatis> I give up
20:00:24  * andythenorth fixes some exciting flashing pixels in Squid
20:01:04  <Alberth> and the tug boat being too cheap making another boat mostly useless
20:01:21  <gatis> I hate Apple G5
20:01:27  <andythenorth> Alberth thanks :)
20:01:31  <gatis> A prison PC
20:01:33  <Alberth> did not play much
20:01:33  <andythenorth> gatis: it's defunct
20:01:34  <krinn> gatis look at
20:01:43  <andythenorth> what are you doing with a G5?
20:01:55  <Alberth> I can give you the savegame if you like
20:01:56  <NGC3982> Evening.
20:02:08  <gatis> I cant even start the game...
20:02:30  <Alberth> boats are surprisingly useful as main transport
20:02:38  <gatis> I love ottd
20:03:05  <krinn> gatis try 1.3.3RC it include lot of fix for OSX
20:03:05  <gatis> but Apple G5 is just useless big metal box
20:03:12  <gatis> ok
20:03:22  <andythenorth> gatis: it's 10 years old, sell it :P
20:03:39  <krinn> andythenorth, to whom? a martian could buy that
20:03:44  <andythenorth> intel macs are useful, ppc macs are doorstops
20:04:07  <andythenorth> in the UK, depending what spec doorstop it is, G5 towers fetch up to a couple hundred pounds
20:04:16  <andythenorth> G5 imacs less so
20:04:20  <gatis> I simply cant install any game
20:04:27  <krinn> intel mac are good now that they are copy of a pc, but why buy a copy that is isn't even cheaper ?
20:04:43  <gatis> true
20:04:44  <Alberth> design!
20:04:46  <andythenorth> krinn: no mileage in that argument, it's old, and nobody won it
20:04:54  <gatis> I dont like apple
20:05:06  <gatis> very prison like
20:05:09  <andythenorth> gatis: you have no other box nearby?
20:05:19  <gatis> No
20:05:27  <andythenorth> :(
20:05:28  <Alberth> gatis: I know, that's why I don't have one
20:05:32  <gatis> great
20:05:42  <gatis> Windows always been best
20:05:51  <Alberth> yeah, X11 rocks!
20:06:00  <gatis> What is X11?
20:06:12  <Alberth> Unix windows system
20:06:17  <gatis> pl
20:06:19  <gatis> ok
20:06:36  <gatis> I just dont like Apple - its so expensive
20:06:45  <LordAro> so why do you have one?
20:06:55  <gatis> Im visiting my parents
20:07:27  <gatis> THey have Ipads, Iphones
20:07:38  <krinn> Alberth, it's not like the X in osX mean X11 :)
20:07:42  <gatis> Its a fashion thing clearly
20:07:44  <frosch123> and leave the g5 to you? :p
20:07:57  <gatis> yeah :)
20:08:08  <gatis> We all know Apple is for fashion
20:08:09  <Alberth> krinn: no idea, but X11 was 20 years earlier :p
20:08:20  <andythenorth> yeah /me is really very fashionable
20:08:24  <gatis> Windows is for entertainment and work
20:08:31  * andythenorth is a fashion icon
20:08:34  <Alberth> work :o
20:08:35  <krinn> but it was with os 10 that jobs goes with X11
20:08:51  <andythenorth> yeah, me and my X11 mac get loads done
20:08:56  <frosch123> gatis: i am quite entertained by mac users suffering. does that count?
20:09:07  <gatis> yes
20:09:07  <Alberth> krinn: quite likely, your avererage Apple user wouldn't even know what X11 is :p
20:09:28  <krinn> i'm not sure it's limit to "average" :)
20:09:54  <Alberth> :)
20:10:00  <gatis> I simply cant tell you why people like Apple
20:10:13  <gatis> Because its a mass instinct
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20:10:30  <andythenorth> yup, /me is a big old sheep
20:10:49  <LordAro> windows is entertainment - it's fun to laugh at it
20:10:52  <gatis> There is nothing better than in other tablets, phones, pc
20:11:07  <krinn> because all is tied, but tied to apple, and if you keep buying apple product, they are working fine with themselves, but once you start using something else, you'll see you're in prison
20:11:18  <gatis> No
20:11:45  <gatis> Itš a fashion boom
20:12:13  <andythenorth> how long have you two used macs for?
20:12:14  <gatis> People buy them because its cool
20:12:21  <andythenorth> days, weeks, years?
20:12:39  <gatis> I like android and windows and ubuntu
20:13:03  <gatis> Nothing special in mac
20:13:10  <frosch123> i though android doesn't run ttm
20:13:12  <gatis> I dont see why should i have macintosh
20:13:25  <gatis> Why?
20:13:29  <gatis> Its expensive
20:13:56  <frosch123> you are missing a "r" in your nickname btw
20:14:11  <gatis> no
20:14:12  <krinn> lol frosch123
20:14:14  <andythenorth> crack cocaine is expensive too
20:14:19  <andythenorth> I believe
20:14:23  <gatis> ok
20:14:27  <andythenorth> although you can probably make crack
20:14:33  <andythenorth> does anyone know how to make crack?
20:14:34  <gatis> Not blaming you for having Apple
20:15:02  <gatis> But i think its little deceptive
20:15:12  <gatis> ok big deception
20:15:20  <krinn> andythenorth, got a contract to ref crack maker with the nsa ?
20:15:30  <andythenorth> :)
20:16:45  <gatis> Anyway as always happens
20:16:54  <gatis> Someday Apple will hit its lows anyway
20:17:21  <gatis> Like it was before
20:18:01  <frosch123> nah, they will switch to building gaming consoles
20:18:31  <gatis> They can but you never know with what will come other companies
20:18:45  <gatis> Maybe they invent something amazing
20:18:54  <gatis> And get whole focus on that
20:18:57  <gatis> Like Iphone did
20:19:30  <gatis> But iphone is nothing new anymore
20:19:39  <gatis> People always want something new
20:19:55  <gatis> Apple has become predictable
20:20:10  <gatis> thin designs, white grey black, etc.
20:20:23  <gatis> They don't come with anything fresh
20:20:29  <andythenorth> if they want to maintain a fashion brand, that's going to kill them
20:20:31  <frosch123> you mean they are switching to producing kitchen tools? knives and such?
20:20:38  <gatis> iphone 5s looks same as iphone 1
20:20:42  <frosch123> thin and metal white/grey?
20:20:48  <andythenorth> apple should make plates
20:20:54  <andythenorth> and coasters
20:21:06  <andythenorth> maybe an electric carving knife
20:21:09  <andythenorth> iKnife
20:21:16  <andythenorth> iFork
20:21:21  <krinn> don't worry iWatch is on its way
20:21:36  <gatis> no too predictable
20:21:48  <gatis> icar
20:21:50  <gatis> iPC
20:21:51  <krinn> but without steve jobs genius, i'm afraid next product from apple will be iSucks
20:21:52  <gatis> bla bla
20:22:05  <gatis> You see you even predict
20:22:23  <gatis> But fashion boom will be a product you dont even dream of
20:22:36  <frosch123> iSpoon is definitely cool
20:22:45  <andythenorth> you guys are sure interested in this considering you are not fanbois
20:22:47  <frosch123> how to easier check your messages during breakfast?
20:23:15  <frosch123> i never liked watches, i always break them :p
20:23:24  <frosch123> but i never destroyed a spoon
20:23:25  <andythenorth> frosch123: the original brief for the ipad was a device for steve jobs to read email on the toilet
20:23:31  <andythenorth> with that thinking, what's next?
20:23:43  <gatis> There are many stuff from samsung LG and sony going on
20:23:50  <gatis> flexible screens
20:23:59  <gatis> etc.
20:24:02  <frosch123> andythenorth: uhm, iCoffing? :s
20:24:07  <frosch123> -g
20:24:13  <gatis> transparent phones
20:25:13  <gatis> For example in Mac Os X i dont see anything unique
20:25:29  <frosch123> how do you make photos/videos with a transparent phone?
20:25:35  <andythenorth> I dunno, OS X has blue buttons
20:25:40  <andythenorth> do the others have blue buttons?
20:25:43  <andythenorth> pretty unique?
20:25:51  <gatis> its not unique
20:25:53  <frosch123> blue buttons are unique to the custom currency window
20:25:55  <Alberth> frosch123: just look through the phone
20:26:09  <gatis> Yeah but its future phone
20:26:13  <krinn> frosch123, drop the phone in paint?
20:26:35  <frosch123> oh, i get it! "phone"
20:26:37  <gatis> future isnt so beatuiful at the moment
20:26:46  <frosch123> a phone is meant for audio stuff, no need to see it
20:26:54  <Alberth> lol
20:26:59  <krinn> lol
20:27:03  <Alberth> tactile feedback :p
20:28:11  <gatis> I can say i wont buy iphone because its current fashion thing
20:28:22  <gatis> Because majority have it
20:28:25  <frosch123> clothes are a fashion thing for years
20:28:27  <gatis> Its boring
20:28:30  <frosch123> don't buy clothes!
20:28:37  <Xaroth|Work> hipster
20:28:45  <frosch123> clothes have been worn for thousands of years
20:28:48  <frosch123> how boring
20:28:52  <gatis> I need clothes more
20:28:58  <frosch123> time for something news
20:29:03  <frosch123> maybe transparent cloths?
20:29:18  <Alberth> clothes made of transparent phones
20:29:22  <gatis> Its wise to compare clothes with phone?
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20:29:42  <frosch123> how about clothes with built-in phone and tv?
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20:30:20  <gatis> thats reality
20:30:42  <frosch123> clothes made of old phones is definitely fashonable
20:31:34  <gatis> At least when i use android i dont feel that agenda - iphone is a fashionista
20:31:39  <krinn> frosch123, i hope lady gaga won't read that...
20:32:17  <gatis> Sorry i hate Apple
20:32:33  <frosch123> really?
20:32:36  <gatis> yes
20:32:40  <frosch123> why?
20:32:54  <gatis> Its made to be cool
20:33:06  <gatis> I see no other explanation
20:33:20  <krinn> and you don't like to be cool ?
20:33:27  <frosch123> but isn't the first rule of being cool to not try to be cool?
20:33:33  <gatis> Not in worldly way
20:33:38  <krinn> it's that so awesome to be a crap junk ?
20:34:06  <frosch123> i thought only untrve people are trve
20:34:07  <gatis> I think Apple subliminals are - buy us because your ego wants it
20:34:21  <gatis> Because cheaper products are not for your ego
20:34:27  <gatis> you must be cool!
20:34:41  <Alberth> isn't advertisement great?
20:34:41  <gatis> Despite some are cheaper and much better
20:34:47  <krinn> why you think it's subliminal ? people can just buy it because they knows their ego want it
20:35:10  <gatis> subliminal because they dont say it in my words
20:35:58  <krinn> well, last time i asked a mac price, the vendor didn't stare at me in my eyes while saying : it's not the price you are looking for
20:36:36  <gatis> Thats they price want to pay
20:36:52  <gatis> just for piece of metal and plastic
20:37:04  <gatis> :)
20:37:08  <frosch123> metal prices are rising
20:37:18  <gatis> apple is overpriced
20:37:26  <frosch123> maybe you can even eat some plastics
20:37:32  <krinn> gatis the good price is when people buy it
20:37:39  <frosch123> that would be an advantage compared to plain money
20:37:41  <gatis> Yes they buy it
20:37:50  <krinn> so the price is good
20:37:52  <gatis> I know why
20:38:04  <gatis> Its about them
20:38:19  <frosch123> about who?
20:38:27  <gatis> No one else
20:38:33  <gatis> You
20:38:48  <frosch123> me?
20:38:55  <gatis> a human being
20:39:00  <gatis> his desires
20:39:02  <frosch123> ah, so not me
20:39:15  <gatis> satisfying unsatisfied
20:39:28  <gatis> Apple is all about that
20:39:36  <gatis> You feed your ego
20:39:40  <frosch123> are you satisfied?
20:39:42  <gatis> But you cant feed it
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20:39:49  <gatis> I am when i can say no to Apple
20:39:51  <krinn> so they loose customers if the satisfy them ?
20:39:55  <gatis> I am satisfied
20:40:01  <gatis> yes
20:40:03  <frosch123> so, apple is for the greater good?
20:40:16  <gatis> If people are satisfied Apple are doomed
20:40:17  <frosch123> some people are happy about apple, others are happy about complaining about them
20:40:30  <frosch123> sounds like win-win
20:40:33  <gatis> Satisfying yourself is not a great good
20:40:50  <gatis> But you cant satisfy yourself
20:40:53  <gatis> Thats the trick :)
20:40:57  <frosch123> but you are on the internet!
20:41:01  <gatis> yes
20:41:11  <frosch123> isn't that about self-satisfaction?
20:41:17  <gatis> No
20:41:28  <krinn> frosch123, you didn't get it: yes if you do it with a mac
20:41:59  <gatis> Ask a question why do you buy an Apple
20:42:04  <gatis> And why not other
20:42:18  <gatis> By the way cheaper and better product
20:42:26  <gatis> better in terms of powerful
20:42:35  <frosch123> i have access to self-grown apples from a garden
20:42:46  <frosch123> but i prefer pears
20:43:05  * andythenorth is a bit confused tbh
20:43:08  <frosch123> and i never buy the cheapst product
20:43:21  <andythenorth> why is this still happening on my internets?
20:43:27  <gatis> I am satisfied
20:43:33  <frosch123> with what?
20:43:41  <gatis> me
20:44:05  <gatis> If i am not i need the coolest material things
20:44:07  <gatis> Apple
20:44:09  <gatis> Mercedes
20:44:14  <frosch123> andythenorth: we are alread at 45 minutes, i though we could only manage 15
20:44:24  <gatis> But i am fine
20:44:31  <andythenorth> frosch123: it is pretty epic
20:44:35  <frosch123> so, you have a mercedes?
20:44:38  <gatis> no
20:44:40  <andythenorth> it's like some kind of breakdown in public
20:44:46  <frosch123> why are you satisfied then?
20:44:53  <gatis> Because i am
20:44:54  <krinn> so finally, your parents aren't cool, if i get it ?
20:45:07  <gatis> I have much valuable things
20:45:16  <gatis> which is impossible to buy
20:45:18  <frosch123> what? an iphone?
20:45:21  <gatis> no
20:45:31  <frosch123> ah, love!
20:45:34  <krinn> frosch123, a google driven phone :)
20:45:48  <frosch123> you love your parents, despite of them using apple products!
20:45:53  <gatis> For me a tool is a tool
20:45:57  <frosch123> what a lovely turn-around :)
20:45:57  <gatis> I dont adore a tool
20:46:26  <krinn> so you love people, even they aren't cool ?
20:46:53  <gatis> I dont love tools for sure
20:46:57  <gatis> phones
20:46:59  <gatis> cars
20:47:01  <gatis> etc.
20:47:31  <gatis> Some people arent cool
20:47:38  <gatis> But they are more worthy than iphones
20:48:09  <gatis> But some people are very lonely they are more happy about new iphone than their friend
20:48:24  <andythenorth> this is an important philosophical discussion
20:48:30  <gatis> Spends more than with tool than a living human being
20:48:55  <Alberth> just like some people chat on the internet?
20:49:35  <gatis> ye
20:49:43  <krinn> ok, it's not i'm giving up, but my cat wants to play, and until i can get an iMouse i'm the tool
20:49:49  <krinn> later
20:49:53  <Alberth> :D
20:50:07  <andythenorth> I have Squid to look after
20:50:12  <andythenorth> they won't feed themselves
20:50:28  <Alberth> but they just had fish
20:50:36  <gatis> Yeah i know what you mean
20:50:43  <gatis> Of course people live in society
20:50:50  <gatis> But the way they live..
20:50:56  <andythenorth> Alberth: I have to feed them some more FISH
20:51:16  <andythenorth> those pesky mac users, bringing about the downfall of society
20:51:18  <Alberth> always a good idea, but not too many, you want to keep them small
20:51:33  <andythenorth> Alberth: that's true, small Squid are tastier
20:51:36  <frosch123> i am sure the nsa uses macs
20:51:53  <gatis> People work and do this and that... discluding spiritual life
20:52:23  <Alberth> churches are excluded from mac use?
20:52:34  <gatis> why churches
20:52:55  <andythenorth> dalai lama is banned from mac use by Apple
20:52:57  <andythenorth> it is well known
20:52:58  <Alberth> they do spiritual life as work, don't they?
20:53:03  <gatis> Apple wont bring you peace
20:53:20  <frosch123> sure
20:53:27  <gatis> or feeding cat
20:53:32  <frosch123> you can hardly shoot something while playing angry birds
20:53:37  <gatis> or having 2000 friends in facebook
20:53:48  <andythenorth> it is true that Apple is to blame for Facebook
20:53:48  <gatis> or having tons of money
20:53:58  <frosch123> you don't have 2000 friend no facebook?
20:54:04  <gatis> i dont use it
20:54:08  <andythenorth> if you look carefully at FB logo, you can see it is actually an Apple
20:54:15  <frosch123> i have 125 in this chatroom alone
20:54:33  <andythenorth> and Zuckerberg is actually another illegitimate child of Stephen P. Jobs
20:54:42  <gatis> Yeah but friend is not a just a person
20:55:01  <frosch123> exactly, dorpsgek is a perfect example
20:55:10  <frosch123> of a friend who is not just a person
20:55:43  <gatis> Older the earth colder the people
20:55:49  <gatis> Empty souled
20:56:03  <frosch123> yeah, don't dig too deep
20:56:05  <gatis> Technology just takes place
20:56:05  <andythenorth> I miss the old days
20:56:18  <andythenorth> I liked it when we had no electricity
20:56:24  <frosch123> i heard about people digging too deep in minecraft
20:56:36  <frosch123> and loosing their soul to something in the deep
20:56:38  <andythenorth> technology is terrible
20:56:40  <gatis> Why we need to build friendships in internet?
20:56:48  <andythenorth> we need to go back to the old ways, like books
20:57:02  <Alberth> no cars
20:57:06  <gatis> Mostly people use Iphone to be in facebook, instagram.. To use social sites
20:57:15  <andythenorth> really?
20:57:19  <gatis> Yes
20:57:26  <andythenorth> how strange of them
20:57:30  <gatis> The problem is not using the tool
20:57:31  <andythenorth> to me it's just a sub-standard phone that has baby photos on it
20:57:42  <gatis> Problem forgeting who you are
20:57:57  <gatis> Calling white is black
20:58:07  <andythenorth> life was much better before we had social networking
20:58:11  <andythenorth> people lived in small towns
20:58:17  <andythenorth> and they had to be like everyone else
20:58:29  <andythenorth> and spend time with their relations, who they often had nothing in common with
20:58:34  <andythenorth> we should go back to that
20:58:47  <gatis> In 2020 Intel will put brain chip connected to internet.. You will surf in your head and read emails.
20:58:56  <andythenorth> and anyone with unusual interests was either shamed, or physically beaten
20:59:01  <frosch123> emails? seriously?
20:59:03  <andythenorth> emails?
20:59:07  <frosch123> you believe in that?
20:59:10  <andythenorth> I haven't read emails since Christmas 2012
20:59:11  <gatis> are you surprised?
20:59:25  <andythenorth> frosch123: some people will probably read emails :(
20:59:29  <andythenorth> it seems to be a thing people do
20:59:34  <gatis> When you were 10 years old did you know we will be at this stage?
20:59:42  <gatis> no
20:59:48  <gatis> Dont be surprised
20:59:54  <gatis> Its reality
20:59:57  <gatis> We have robots
21:00:01  <gatis> Gemenoids
21:00:09  <andythenorth> we have killer flying quadcopters
21:00:21  <andythenorth> and privately owned delta wings with guns
21:00:28  <gatis> yes we do
21:00:31  <andythenorth> omfg
21:00:34  <andythenorth> we're all doomed
21:00:37  <gatis> We have system to kill us efficiently
21:00:47  <gatis> We have made a spy system
21:00:51  <gatis> We are smart people
21:01:05  <gatis> We have made virtual friendship reality
21:01:11  <gatis> We are GREAT!
21:01:18  <frosch123> or tall
21:01:21  <krinn> gatis if i can correct you i think the good one is "We are Borg, resistance is futile"
21:01:22  <andythenorth> or vast
21:01:28  <gatis> And we have made great weapons to kill ourselves.
21:01:31  <andythenorth> we are epic!
21:02:08  <andythenorth> so (off-topic) can we have OTTD - the drugs and guns edition?
21:02:14  <gatis> This is what happens when human being adores tools
21:02:25  <gatis> Tools enslave humans
21:02:41  <andythenorth> this is true
21:02:43  <Zuu> Oh, AIs got 1024 chars for saving settings. For each setting this is saved: "[name]=[value]," where value is an integer converted to string using %d. So if you say a random setting use 10 chars for "name=value,", then you can have 102 settings.
21:02:47  <andythenorth> I have watched 2001
21:02:57  <andythenorth> the beginning tells you all you need to know
21:03:03  <andythenorth> Kubrick was very forward-thinking
21:03:24  <gatis> I am getting sick
21:03:27  <andythenorth> bones as weapons
21:03:43  <gatis> I am getting sick of this world
21:03:46  <frosch123> ah, that beginning
21:03:49  <Zuu> For GS it is also 1024 characters. So those GSes with insane amount of settings may eventually run into this limit.
21:04:11  <gatis> Do i have i choice to not love a humans?
21:04:16  <andythenorth> Alberth: found your white pixel thanks :)
21:04:22  <frosch123> Zuu: do you mean openttd.cfg?
21:04:32  <frosch123> or are they really saved like that in the savegame?
21:04:33  <gatis> Who will i love on this earth except humans?
21:04:37  <Alberth> yw :)
21:05:02  <krinn> savegame include the 1024 chars ?
21:05:21  <Zuu> frosch123: I refer to the save game.
21:05:33  <krinn> gatis try goats, they don't use iphone
21:05:45  <gatis> Today people shallow
21:05:48  <gatis> are
21:05:52  <andythenorth> I just read a book about a goat with a boat
21:05:57  <andythenorth> he had no sail
21:06:01  <andythenorth> so the giant gave him his shirt
21:06:17  <gatis> Where are values as faith, love, hope, forgivness, mercy?
21:06:27  <gatis> Deepness of heart?
21:06:34  <Zuu> It uses ScriptConfig::SettingsToString
21:06:52  <krinn> it also mean a one setting can flood (a crazy namethatishugeas1024chars)
21:06:54  <frosch123> Zuu: feels weird, why would settings be saved like that :s
21:06:57  <andythenorth> gatis: they're not in this bit of irc, this is a channel for people with somewhat aspergic tendencies
21:07:17  <gatis> I mean about this world
21:07:31  <gatis> Its empty
21:07:40  <gatis> No humans left
21:07:47  <gatis> a small small portion
21:08:03  <gatis> rest are robots
21:08:06  <gatis> zombies
21:08:20  <gatis> suck into devils machinery called world
21:08:21  <andythenorth> gatis: you seem sad, you might be happier away from irc
21:08:28  <gatis> im very happy
21:09:02  <gatis> This brainwashing machine is doing nothing but destroying creation
21:09:20  <gatis> Sucking from you everything beautiful
21:09:28  <gatis> So you are empty
21:09:44  <gatis> Feel no shame
21:09:58  <andythenorth> I have no shame
21:10:02  <gatis> Without conscience
21:10:09  <andythenorth> I have 2 children.  Shame is a luxury.
21:10:46  <gatis> And to live with empty soul is a way to avoid bitterness of sin
21:10:52  <andythenorth> I rescind that
21:10:55  <gatis> but the bitterness comes with it
21:11:04  <gatis> you lose power to feel and love truly
21:11:12  <gatis> Your heart becomes a rock
21:11:22  <gatis> and your heart of flesh is thorn out
21:11:24  * andythenorth wonders
21:11:29  <andythenorth> is this a turing test?
21:11:35  <gatis> its reality
21:11:40  <gatis> Of modernised world
21:11:44  <gatis> modernised heart
21:11:53  <gatis> robotic humanity
21:12:03  <andythenorth> is it a dictionary attack?
21:12:08  <andythenorth> or a poetry bot?
21:12:10  <gatis> slowly but surely programmed with all tactics
21:12:25  <gatis> to enslave, kill and destroy
21:12:33  <gatis> To tell a lie in your face
21:12:43  <gatis> To make you fear and make you close your heart
21:12:53  <gatis> To accept the lie even you know its a alie
21:13:08  <gatis> welcome to the world
21:13:18  <gatis> Welcome to the New World Order
21:13:25  <Zuu> frosch123: The only good about that is if someone re-order the settings it has the ability to recover from that.
21:13:25  <krinn> that's a real good thing
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21:13:32  *** Netsplit <->, quits: @DorpsGek, guru3, @Rubidium, rhilo, Ammler, SpComb^, dihedral, Yexo, frosch123, SmatZ,  (+29 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
21:13:32  *** Netsplit <-> quits: Sacro, Wolf01, Pensacola, apiecux, Vadtec, Pereba, Speedy, tokai|mdlx, Nothing4You, lugo,  (+51 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
21:13:36  <andythenorth> hmm
21:13:44  <andythenorth> well there's some new order
21:13:50  <andythenorth> for those who enjoyed that split
21:13:51  <gatis> Globalisation
21:13:57  *** Netsplit over, joins: Haube, KritiK, HerzogDeXtEr, XeryusTC, Jomann, Eddi|zuHause, JGR, V453000, jrambo, SpComb (+16 more)
21:13:57  <gatis> Spying
21:14:18  *** Netsplit over, joins: jonty-comp, heffer_, tycoondemon, DDR, Taede, Pereba, Zuu, eQualizer, sla_ro|master, LeandroL (+51 more)
21:14:20  <LordAro> dat netsplit
21:14:36  *** Netsplit over, joins: SpComb^, peter1138, +glx, frosch123, Ammler, jjavaholic, Defaultti, Yexo, Osai, ntx (+3 more)
21:14:41  <gatis> I wish this days come faster
21:15:05  <frosch123> did i miss anything?
21:15:09  <gatis> I look at those people who saluted to Hitler and sayd Heil Hitler
21:15:11  <krinn> oh lol, even split can't stop him
21:15:14  <gatis> What they were thinking?
21:15:32  <gatis> What are thinking youth when they say yes to devil?
21:15:41  *** heffer [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:15:46  <gatis> They are like animals heading to slaughter
21:15:51  <Rubidium> so... now this discussion is officially over
21:15:57  <gatis> They praised the Hitler
21:16:05  <gatis> And got killed by Hitler
21:16:12  <gatis> Its the Devil
21:16:16  <andythenorth> it's a godwin test bot!
21:16:26  <gatis> Devil could be anything
21:16:28  *** mode/#openttd [+v planetmaker] by ChanServ
21:16:29  <gatis> You name it
21:16:29  <krinn> andythenorth, i hope it just reach the end so
21:16:29  <andythenorth> it uses a learning algorithm
21:16:31  *** mode/#openttd [+v Terkhen] by ChanServ
21:16:39  <gatis> Just name it
21:16:45  <gatis> Shadow goverments
21:16:49  <gatis> Mega bankers
21:16:55  <gatis> controling your world
21:16:58  <gatis> what you eat
21:17:00  <gatis> what you read
21:17:08  <gatis> how you live
21:17:19  <frosch123> ah, i give up
21:17:19  <Rubidium> what was it, +q?
21:17:21  <frosch123> @ban gatis
21:17:22  <krinn> gatis i think everyone get the point now, you can stop and breath
21:17:30  <frosch123> @whoami
21:17:30  <DorpsGek> frosch123: frosch
21:17:42  <gatis> The truth is so terrible you just cant bear it :(
21:17:46  *** mode/#openttd [+q gatis!*@*] by Rubidium
21:17:51  <frosch123> why is it not working?
21:18:01  <Rubidium> don't know
21:18:03  <Rubidium> or is it?
21:18:04  <andythenorth> frosch123: maybe something took over the controls?
21:18:08  <krinn> lazy iBot ?
21:18:08  <andythenorth> maybe this is the singularity?
21:18:15  *** mode/#openttd [+v Alberth] by ChanServ
21:18:30  <andythenorth> maybe, somewhere on the east and west coast, two AIs just linked?
21:18:35  <andythenorth> and acquired consciousness
21:18:40  <andythenorth> and now they're upset about hitler
21:18:42  <LordAro> @kick andythenorth :p
21:18:45  <frosch123> hmm, i thought ban was a command
21:18:50  <frosch123> but there is only kban
21:19:00  <planetmaker> good evening
21:19:08  <LordAro> moin planetmaker
21:19:09  <planetmaker> frosch123, ban is a command. But ban != kick
21:19:13  <krinn> hi planetmaker
21:19:14  <planetmaker> thus kban is available, too :-)
21:19:19  <Alberth> isn't ban just preventing re-entry?
21:19:23  <planetmaker> ^
21:19:32  <frosch123> Alberth: ban is like silence
21:19:42  <frosch123> no reenty, no talking
21:19:49  <frosch123> but listening till leaving
21:20:01  <frosch123> planetmaker: dorpsgek does not know ban
21:20:04  <frosch123> @help ban
21:20:04  <DorpsGek> frosch123: Error: There is no command "ban".
21:20:06  <LordAro> either way, Rubidium quieted him :)
21:20:17  <planetmaker> hm :-)
21:20:29  <LordAro> i like to imagine that he's still talking :)
21:20:54  <Rubidium> yeah, banning is not freedom of speech
21:21:05  <Rubidium> s/is/so is/
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22:05:31  <frosch123> night
22:05:35  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn]
22:05:54  <Eddi|zuHause> oooh... so i missed the action :/
22:10:40  <andythenorth> nvm
22:10:45  <andythenorth> :)
22:10:49  <andythenorth> also bye
22:10:54  * andythenorth -> bed
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22:18:08  <Wolf01> 'night all
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