Config
Log for #openttd on 15th December 2013:
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10:02:57  <Wolf01> moin
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10:11:32  <Rubidium> moi Wolf01
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10:38:24  <NGC3982> Morning.
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10:39:16  <Alberth> mon
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10:39:18  <Alberth> +i
10:39:35  <planetmaker> niom
10:40:06  <NGC3982> iomn
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13:16:44  <Eddi|zuHause> miau
13:18:52  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Has your cat become sentient now?
13:19:09  <Eddi|zuHause> probably
13:19:22  <Eddi|zuHause> can you disprove it? :p
13:23:58  <fonsinchen> Let's have a little poll: Who of you would prefer destinations to distribution for town cargoes (passengers, mail, goods, food, water)?
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13:24:30  <fonsinchen> Who generally prefers distribution over destinations, also for non-town cargoes?
13:26:29  <fonsinchen> I'm just thinking that destinations don't make much sense if you have 20 towns in the list of places to be served. So I'm pondering if I can restrict the whole thing to industries only.
13:26:38  <fonsinchen> This would make everything a bit simpler.
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13:27:45  <planetmaker> how does that make it simpler, fonsinchen ?
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13:28:04  <fonsinchen> Not having to drag around the SourceType everywhere would be nice
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13:28:18  <fonsinchen> Also Headquarters are also a kind of source and they're hard to support
13:29:29  <fonsinchen> Allowing only distribution (symmetric or asymmetric) or manual for pax and mail resolves that problem quite nicely.
13:30:09  <planetmaker> fonsinchen, houses can accept any cargo
13:31:28  <fonsinchen> Hrm, I see. They can also accept stuff for which there is no town effect, I guess.
13:31:34  <planetmaker> yes
13:31:49  <fonsinchen> But how would I know about that anyway when only looking at the towns.
13:31:54  <planetmaker> it's just a matter of writing the NewGRF such that they do
13:31:57  <fonsinchen> Let me check that ...
13:33:09  <fonsinchen> Apparently Town will account for maximum NUM_CARGO supplied cargoes, but only NUM_TE accepted ones.
13:33:19  <fonsinchen> That is ... interesting.
13:35:37  <planetmaker> oh, fonsinchen they can also *produce* any cargo
13:35:40  <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: just make a record of the cargos during the tile loop?
13:36:25  <planetmaker> callback 0x2E for houses
13:36:28  * fonsinchen hates adding things to the tile loop.
13:36:51  <michi_cc> fonsinchen: I think you can guess my poll choice :)
13:36:52  <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: if you need a test case, try ECSHouses, it has a fuel station coded as house
13:37:23  <fonsinchen> michi_cc, have you seen what the town windows look like in YACD when you have many big towns?
13:37:29  <Eddi|zuHause> but it only has like 6/8 acceptance, so you need two of them...
13:38:02  <Eddi|zuHause> which is one of the most stupid design decisions...
13:38:03  <michi_cc> Yes, but that might simply mean that one of the scale factors has to be bigger.
13:38:58  * fonsinchen has to go back to the drawing board.
13:39:10  <fonsinchen> It's even messier than I had though.
13:39:24  <michi_cc> fonsinchen: Keeping track of house acceptance isn't hard and not much of a performance problem (http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/git/yacd.git/commitdiff/d2d24d29b44189e32a6e27c978cf5d36cd224c6e)
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13:40:35  <michi_cc> Exactly because of those stupid x/8 problems I decided from the start to only go down to 4x4 tile squares.
13:43:00  <michi_cc> Together with http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/git/yacd.git/commitdiff/7bcabd7682b7f51e89fd00c370465fe8c3b2aac1 and http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/git/yacd.git/commitdiff/2d961453ba10dbb0bb800620e0b80210e7ec7b48 it is IMHO quite a good approximation of station acceptance.
13:43:40  <fonsinchen> But why would you actually use the houses at all? That commit you're quoting stores all necessary information in Town. Each station is associated to a town and knows what cargo it gets. No need to make it even more fiddly, I'd say.
13:45:05  <Eddi|zuHause> the point was to decide the destinations _before_ you have a station?
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13:45:33  <michi_cc> Because cargo destinations don't depend on whether there is a station or not, i.e. if you don't cover all houses in a town you're not going to get all possible cargo (to ease start-up the center tiles of the house get a much bigger proportion of the cargo than the outliers).
13:45:52  <michi_cc> s/house/town/
13:46:41  <fonsinchen> Because of d2d24d you can calculate destinations based on the information already available from Town and Industry, right?
13:47:25  <fonsinchen> Then you have, like in YACD "town X wants to deliver to town Y, town Z and town ZZ".
13:47:33  <fonsinchen> Isn't that enough?
13:47:50  <michi_cc> If you include the commit after d2d24d, yes (collects industry *tile* acceptance).
13:48:42  <michi_cc> If the town is the destination, then yes. But for YACD the destinations is the actual house (well, 4x4 map square) and not the town itself.
13:49:36  <fonsinchen> Which commit is the one after d2d24d?
13:50:00  <michi_cc> http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/git/yacd.git/commitdiff/3097fe836dee588d7ff5cee6bc8a1fc9e47dc8dd (http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/git/yacd.git/shortlog)
13:50:10  <fonsinchen> And why do you want the 4x4 squares to be the destinations instead of towns?
13:50:29  <Eddi|zuHause> because of inner-city transport?
13:50:58  <fonsinchen> Just say the town delivers to itself
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13:52:14  <fonsinchen> The demands algorithm just has to make sure that no _station_ has itself as destination.
13:53:22  <Eddi|zuHause> but then you can get away with just dropping the people off at the main station, instead of bringing them to their homes
13:53:39  <michi_cc> Because I explicitly want to encourage building an inner-city distribution network over just needing to plop a single big station in the middle of the town.
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13:54:23  <fonsinchen> If you just plop a big station in the middle you'll miss out on the inner-city transported pax
13:54:30  <fonsinchen> You need at least 2
13:55:09  <fonsinchen> And then, to cover the whole town, you typically need multiple stations anyway and the demands algorithm can assign demands to them
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13:56:21  <fonsinchen> The cargo destination assignment has to be separate from he station demand assignment anyway.
13:56:58  <michi_cc> And due to the weights that are assigned to each square you even get something resembling a commute pattern (e.g. in-town pax from the outside areas of the town are more likely heading to the city center than some other outside area). More "realism" :p
13:57:43  <fonsinchen> Well, you get that with pure distribution, too. Say, in current trunk, you only build an inner-city network in one town.
13:58:14  <fonsinchen> Then the symmetric distribution will make sure that you get a lot of center to outside commutes
13:58:33  <fonsinchen> (and the other way round of course)
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14:00:15  <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: the main difference between destinations and distribution is that in distribution you can safely leave out areas, you're only going to miss cargo that gets produced at this area. with destinations you miss the cargo that gets produced in this are AND the cargo that wants to go to this area
14:00:43  <Eddi|zuHause> so there is a higher penalty for leaving this area out
14:00:48  <fonsinchen> I know. What I'm trying to figure out now is the necessary granularity
14:00:59  <michi_cc> In the end it is simply personal opinion what the "right" way is. I still consider the destinations part of YACD a lot better than the routing part (all performance problems are almost only in the routing part, the destination generation is almost invisible on profiling) and quite well though out.
14:01:36  <fonsinchen> I have actually rebased the destinations part on current trunk. It works fine.
14:02:03  <fonsinchen> https://github.com/ulfhermann/openttd/commits/destinations
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14:03:15  <fonsinchen> Now I'm wondering if I should use that or rewrite it in a simpler way. The fact that data is scattered around all over the place doesn't make it easy to integrate the destinations into the link graph.
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14:04:38  <fonsinchen> I was more thinking about centralized lists of sources, sinks and their mappings by cargo which can easily be copied into a link graph job.
14:05:19  <Eddi|zuHause> a DestinationPool?
14:06:36  <fonsinchen> More like exactly NUM_CARGO Destinations objects.
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14:13:10  <frosch123> doesn't the difference between town destinations and 4x4 map square destination become important when towns grow into one town, and the houses beloging to different towns are directly adjacent?
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14:15:51  <fonsinchen> Sure, that is a problem. If we just go by town associated to a station we get wrong results then.
14:16:55  <fonsinchen> We may need a towns_near member in Station at some point to fix that
14:17:14  <fonsinchen> But for now, the direct town association is good enough, I think.
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14:17:51  <fonsinchen> While we're at it we could also add a headquarters_near, for added fun.
14:18:26  <fonsinchen> In no case we really need the 4x4 squares, I think.
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14:28:42  <andythenorth> michi_cc: "Because I explicitly want to encourage building an inner-city distribution network over just needing to plop a single big station in the middle of the town." <- that was one of the fun parts of YACD, but it could use less granularity :)
14:28:46  <andythenorth> smaller *
14:28:53  <andythenorth> fewer *
14:29:01  <andythenorth> I don't know the correct term :)
14:29:31  <andythenorth> anyway, after you've done it a few times, placing bus or tram stops every 8 tiles or so - the fun wears off :)
14:29:45  <andythenorth> 8x8 tiles, and assume people walk?
14:30:00  <andythenorth> introduce weather :P  They only walk on some days :P
14:30:00  <michi_cc> Catchment radius of bus stops is till only 3 tiles...
14:30:40  <andythenorth> oic :)
14:31:22  <michi_cc> The 4x4 isn't random, but influenced quite a bit by station catchment.
14:31:46  <andythenorth> in case of confusion, I do think it's a good design choice :)
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14:32:24  <andythenorth> but I found it very hard to not have pax pile up in large cities
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14:32:39  <andythenorth> after a while I would have thousands waiting and didn't bother trying to fix
14:33:13  <andythenorth> maybe it's a pax generation issue, or a vehicle set issue, not the destinations mechanic
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14:56:05  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is that the "cargo wating" vs. "station rating" feedback effect is not working well
14:56:24  <Eddi|zuHause> but that doesn't really have anything to do with destinations
14:56:49  <Eddi|zuHause> it's just without destinations/distribution it's easier to ignore
15:02:49  <peter1138> wating
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15:10:01  <Eddi|zuHause> that's what you do when you're up to your knees in water
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15:20:27  <MNIM> no, that would be wading.
15:20:29  <andythenorth> wat?
15:20:53  <andythenorth> also /me played YACD with RV stops patched to 5 tile catchments locally :P
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15:25:22  <andythenorth> moving pax inside cities with YACD is a good challenge :D
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15:27:52  <_johannes_> Hey, can I please get help? We wanted to setup a game with additional newgrf features, but now the default trains (including coal waggons) are missing. How to re-enable them?
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15:32:08  <_johannes_> No one has an answer?
15:32:13  <_johannes_> Must be a simple question...
15:33:03  <Eddi|zuHause> which newgrf are you trying to use?
15:33:33  <andythenorth> afaik there's nothing you can do
15:33:40  <andythenorth> you need a new game
15:34:26  <_johannes_> yes
15:34:36  <_johannes_> I can start a new game, this is no problem
15:34:56  <_johannes_> but how do I start a new game with both newgrf trains and default trains?
15:35:32  <_johannes_> I want to use "Generic European Train Set (GES)"
15:36:15  <andythenorth> it probably disables default trains
15:36:17  <andythenorth> most sets do
15:36:41  <_johannes_> hmm why?
15:36:53  <andythenorth> because most train sets assume you want to replace default trains
15:37:10  <andythenorth> you could try adding OGFX+ trains
15:37:21  <andythenorth> it's pretty much a recreation of the default trains + some extra stuff
15:37:46  <andythenorth> I'm guessing your problem is that you are missing vehicles for some cargos?
15:38:02  <_johannes_> yes
15:38:09  <_johannes_> coal, for example
15:38:35  <andythenorth> that's a sign of an unfinished newgrf
15:38:41  <andythenorth> I wouldn't bother with it
15:38:45  <andythenorth> try something better
15:38:54  <andythenorth> it's probably subtly broken in other ways
15:39:10  <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes_: most newgrf sets have wagons that can be refitted to more than one cargo.
15:39:33  <Eddi|zuHause> so if you think "there is no wagon that loads coal", you might need to look closer
15:39:48  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. whether the one that loads iron ore may be refitted to coal
15:40:16  <_johannes_> ok trying ogfx+ now
15:40:22  <Eddi|zuHause> (you need to do that in a depot)
15:40:37  <andythenorth> is there a good, finished, Euro train set?
15:40:40  <andythenorth> DB Set?
15:42:11  <Eddi|zuHause> what are your criteria for "good" or "finished"?
15:42:44  <Eddi|zuHause> the DBSet has some strange design choices, partially due to its age
15:43:13  <andythenorth> I think I mean 'coherent' and 'supports the most used industry newgrfs'
15:43:30  <andythenorth> also 'not ugly'
15:43:53  <Eddi|zuHause> the DBSet has certainly big problems with "supports industry sets"
15:44:17  <andythenorth> $someone should really make a Euro train set :P
15:44:54  * Eddi|zuHause whistles innocently
15:50:04  <andythenorth> IH will have Euro options
15:50:40  <andythenorth> likely a scandi version, a france/germany version, and some kind of mediterranean thing
15:51:41  <_johannes_> Hey, thanks andythenorth , Eddi|zuHause , it works!
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16:18:59  <andythenorth> fonsinchen: to (not) answer your question - town cargos pose a problem