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Log for #openttd on 23rd December 2013:
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07:25:41  <andythenorth> o/
07:28:23  <NGC3982> Morning Morning
07:28:34  <NGC3982> moronimong .
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08:04:49  <andythenorth> retina screen breaks my screenshots :P
08:04:52  <andythenorth> how silly
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09:07:16  <planetmaker> moin
09:14:12  <andythenorth> hi planetmaker
09:32:00  <LordAro> moin
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12:08:14  <andythenorth> hurgh
12:08:17  * andythenorth hungry
12:08:59  <Xaroth|Work> make me some as well will ya?
12:12:20  <Eddi|zuHause> sudo make me a sandwich
12:13:39  * andythenorth gets a PyPy buildout
12:13:42  <Xaroth|Work> related xkcd: http://xkcd.com/149/
12:13:47  <andythenorth> see if I can test this firs compile
12:14:20  <andythenorth> meh, buildout failed
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12:16:13  <andythenorth> stuff happening now
12:16:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i'll never understand the fascination about "buildouts"
12:16:59  <andythenorth> you don't have the use case
12:17:26  <andythenorth> tens of thousands of people working on python web frameworks do ;)
12:17:43  <Xaroth|Work> i never use buildout :|
12:17:47  * Xaroth|Work works on python web frameworks
12:17:51  <andythenorth> you probably do django?
12:17:57  <Xaroth|Work> yep
12:18:30  <Xaroth|Work> then again, I build stuff for customers
12:18:43  <Xaroth|Work> so they are kinda stuck on how it's installed
12:18:47  <Xaroth|Work> since that's part of the contract
12:18:59  <Xaroth|Work> we build it, we install it, that way they can't fuck it up
12:19:17  <Xaroth|Work> but that also goes for other things we make
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12:20:18  <andythenorth> how do devs on your team get a project environment?
12:20:34  <andythenorth> have you packaged it up somehow?  Vagrant or something?
12:20:52  <Xaroth|Work> we have sandbox systems, and we specify a setup.py with requirements.txt for virtualenvs
12:20:52  <andythenorth> setuptools? o_O :P
12:21:23  <Xaroth|Work> and yes, vagrant/buildout can probably work smooth, but most of the people are used to this
12:21:42  <Xaroth|Work> and they know how to fix things if it breaks (read: if they break it)
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12:25:34  <andythenorth> unlike /me
12:25:41  <andythenorth> who now has broken python everywhere
12:26:05  <Xaroth|Work> heh
12:28:40  <andythenorth> this is why we have backups :P
12:30:27  <Rubidium> backups? What are those?
12:30:47  <LordAro> http://www.ted.com/talks/rob_reid_the_8_billion_ipod.html
12:31:08  * Rubidium works at a company that supposedly makes backups, but never does a recovery test
12:31:36  <Rubidium> so much fun to find out that the database backup doesn't end up in the backup because it was filtered out
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12:35:29  <LordAro> D:
12:38:48  * Rubidium wonders whether to blame the backup tool of SQL server though... for respectively not backing up .bak or for making backups to .bak
12:38:55  <Rubidium> s/of/or/
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13:01:06  <Xaroth|Work> http://i.imgur.com/n4Vcvg0.jpg
13:05:05  <LordAro> nom
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13:08:40  <Xaroth|Work> http://xkcd.com/1306/ :)
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13:17:09  <ZxBiohazardZx> anyone good with reversers/pathfinding? i cant see why my train is making a turn to a red signal instead of going into a reverser
13:17:50  <Xaroth|Work> ZxBiohazardZx: upload a few images to imgur, that might help
13:18:03  <ZxBiohazardZx> http://imgur.com/VC3QgQp
13:18:29  <ZxBiohazardZx> i expect trains to go to Q5, but instead they go for C
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13:19:21  <Xaroth|Work> ZxBiohazardZx: I don't see a route from Q5 to the station
13:19:36  <Wolf01> hi o/
13:20:08  <ZxBiohazardZx> it is a reverser, it should route to the depot / via depot to the entrance again (its a loop)
13:21:02  <ZxBiohazardZx> and loop has a direct run back into the station entrance, hence imo it should work :P
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13:39:10  <Taede> what is yapf.rail_firstred_twoway_eol set to ZxBiohazardZx ?
13:44:36  <ZxBiohazardZx> "off"
13:44:52  <ZxBiohazardZx> you can have a look, 1.3.3 -> biohazards realm
13:45:13  <ZxBiohazardZx> station @ Dadingworth is causing the random stuff, i got them to overflow after changing the reverser to a loop
13:45:24  <ZxBiohazardZx> but now they wont go into the depot, and instead block depot exit
13:45:26  <ZxBiohazardZx> :(
13:45:32  <andythenorth> no frosch o_O
13:45:57  <Taede> yapf.rail_firstred_twoway_eol is usually set to 1 on coop-servers, to make overflows like that work
13:46:18  <ZxBiohazardZx> ill try setting it
13:47:23  <ZxBiohazardZx> thx that worked :)
13:47:37  <Taede> :)
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13:51:12  <frosch123> hi kids!
13:52:13  <ZxBiohazardZx> heya Frosch!
13:52:14  <ZxBiohazardZx> :)
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13:53:28  <ZxBiohazardZx> thx again Taede :)
13:53:36  <andythenorth> he always comes when I mention his name
13:53:37  <Taede> nps
13:53:37  <andythenorth> spooky
13:54:51  <frosch123> boo!
13:57:39  <andythenorth> frosch123: any reason against modifying cb 10 so effect vehicle xyz pos is returned in register 0x100?
13:57:46  <andythenorth> other than "it's work"
13:58:14  <frosch123> https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/New_Smoke <- does it integrate with that one?
13:58:47  * andythenorth reads
13:59:18  <andythenorth> "since this is performance critical NewGRFs cannot define their own models." \o/
14:00:16  <peter1138> :D
14:00:55  <andythenorth> imagine
14:01:00  <andythenorth> we could have SmokeTypes
14:01:04  <andythenorth> and SmokeTypeLabels
14:01:15  <peter1138> SmokeTypeTranslationTables
14:01:22  <andythenorth> it might be worth putting into the forums 'to develop a spec for the future'
14:01:25  <andythenorth> maybe on April 1
14:01:37  <peter1138> Let's drop everything and make it with 3D models.
14:01:43  <frosch123> don't forget extra zoom
14:01:52  <frosch123> a proper smoke spec needs to be retina compatible
14:02:03  <frosch123> so, say 1kx1k smoke sprites
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14:02:33  <andythenorth> frosch123: as it happens OpenTTD is very very retina compatible
14:02:36  <andythenorth> I have proven
14:02:45  <andythenorth> unlike most of the internets
14:03:04  <frosch123> yeah, i have used my retina for years to watch it
14:03:07  <andythenorth> :P
14:03:19  <andythenorth> ok so comments
14:03:35  <andythenorth> - is it just nicer to repeat the cb until 'no more effects' is returned?
14:03:38  <andythenorth> similar to articulated parts
14:04:57  <Belugas> hello
14:05:20  <andythenorth> ho it's Belugas
14:05:21  <andythenorth> :)
14:05:21  <Eddi|zuHause> suggestion: black steam engine smoke when accelerating heavily at low speed, white smoke when "idling" at top speed
14:05:40  <Eddi|zuHause> with greyscales inbetween
14:05:42  <Belugas> andythenorth :)
14:05:48  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: now you want a custom palette transform? :P
14:06:17  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: that case is covered
14:06:49  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: how?
14:07:00  <andythenorth> frosch123: my only other comment is that I zoned out around "Custom effects"
14:07:31  <andythenorth> seems to have a lot of TODO and unresolved.  TMWFTLB?
14:08:35  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, my NTFS external drive tends to get cluttered by .fuse_hidden files
14:09:58  <frosch123> andythenorth: eddi wants to use it, he just said :p
14:10:20  <andythenorth> well extend the spec later :D
14:10:25  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause needs some sprites first
14:10:27  <andythenorth> :P
14:10:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i have loads of sprites
14:10:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i finally got around to involving pixa
14:10:54  <andythenorth> :)
14:11:12  <andythenorth> oh god, now I have a user :P
14:11:17  <andythenorth> I am obliged to do support
14:11:26  <frosch123> andythenorth: i do not much like the "iterative calls of cb"
14:11:35  <andythenorth> ok
14:11:38  <frosch123> they do the same 99% of the time
14:11:47  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: can pixa output 32bpp?
14:11:54  <andythenorth> umm
14:11:55  <andythenorth> dunno
14:12:01  <frosch123> if you have multiple smoke sprites, they are more arranged like a industry layout
14:12:04  <andythenorth> probably, just teach it a different palette?
14:12:05  <frosch123> rather than independent things
14:12:21  <andythenorth> pixa doesn't make (many) assumptions, it's just a processor
14:12:28  <andythenorth> hey look CETS steamers :) https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/entry/src/gfx/DRG/99.73_5_DRG.png
14:13:12  <andythenorth> frosch123: ok, I am easily convinced
14:14:09  <Eddi|zuHause> that one is not pixa-generated :p
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14:16:35  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the autogenerated files are not in the repository
14:16:50  <andythenorth> make sense
14:17:17  <Eddi|zuHause> they look like "template<4,default>(0..2:box<6>(0..4:grey-4,5:grey-3),3:box<8>(0..6:grey-4,7:grey-3))"
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14:20:09  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: wich then looks like this: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/V_4_default_8bpp_normal.pixa.png
14:20:25  <andythenorth> frosch123: so with this spec, I could trigger existing diesel smoke sprites, using the steam spawning model? o_O
14:20:39  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: pretty neat
14:22:55  <frosch123> andythenorth: yes
14:23:05  <andythenorth> yay
14:23:13  <andythenorth> avoids patching vehicle.cpp
14:23:16  <andythenorth> :P
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14:28:54  <andythenorth> (existing diesel smoke generation model is daft for ships)
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15:00:49  <andythenorth> frosch123: is smoke something you're interested in working on?  It's a nice feature, and I have some time right now to help :)  If not, it will keep :)
15:01:22  <frosch123> well, it's something on the list to code when some grf author is interested in using :p
15:01:33  <frosch123> but maybe not exactly today :p
15:02:03  <frosch123> you know, not all releases are done for this year
15:04:42  <andythenorth> he he
15:07:48  <andythenorth> I will go make some trains or something in that case
15:11:32  <andythenorth> unless anyone wants to collaborate on a GS? o_O
15:11:36  <andythenorth> just a simple one...?
15:19:32  <andythenorth> hmm GS looks like 'proper' programming
15:20:27  <andythenorth> there's actually some kind of loop running or something
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15:23:12  <frosch123> use zuu's "minimal gs" as starting point :)
15:23:20  <frosch123> it's a sticky in the script dev forum
15:24:17  <andythenorth> I was reading SV :)
15:24:24  <andythenorth> might as well dive straight in
15:24:31  <andythenorth> I'm not good with 'build it up in small pieces'
15:24:34  <frosch123> that is based on the minimal gs as well :p
15:24:48  <andythenorth> better to get something existing, and try 'wtf?' on it
15:27:15  <andythenorth> code looks ok, need someone to kick at my ideas though
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15:34:59  <andythenorth> so why do so many of us turn off the stuff that screws with you - breakdowns, disasters, fluctuating economy...?
15:36:10  <andythenorth> o_O
15:36:20  <frosch123> disasters and recessions are nothing you can influence
15:36:29  <frosch123> you cannot play differently to avoid them
15:36:41  <frosch123> some think that breakdowns are also something that you cannot influence
15:36:48  <frosch123> but that is actually a lie
15:36:57  <frosch123> as such i play with breakdowns in singleplayer
15:37:13  <andythenorth> I would play breakdowns if I could make servicing work :)
15:37:21  <andythenorth> but I have EAndythenorth in that respect :)
15:37:31  <frosch123> it enriches the engine selection and your network needs to be somewhat redjundant to it
15:37:51  <frosch123> automatic servicing is broken :p
15:37:57  <frosch123> always use manual servicing
15:38:08  <andythenorth> oh so it's a known issue now? o_O
15:38:11  <andythenorth> I thought it was just me :)
15:38:11  <frosch123> either orders, or forced visits via track layout
15:38:35  <andythenorth> is there some pathfinder problem?
15:38:38  <frosch123> automatic servicing can work for inner-town bus networks
15:38:43  <frosch123> but not for serious transport
15:38:51  <andythenorth> RVs have been broken for years, but trains used to work with PBS signal in front of deport
15:38:53  <andythenorth> depot *
15:38:57  <andythenorth> that now seems to be ignored
15:39:45  <frosch123> http://wiki.openttd.org/File:Forced_servicing.png <- with forced visit without orders i mean stuff like that
15:40:03  <frosch123> though if you are particulary lazy (like i am sometimes), you can put it right at the loading stations
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15:40:18  <frosch123> make all ariving trains run into the depot before loading
15:40:38  <frosch123> that way the depot also deals as buffer when the production fluctuates and removes unneeeded trains from the network
15:41:06  <frosch123> for that don't put any signals between depot and platofrm, so trains only leave the depot, if a platform is empty
15:41:19  <frosch123> and well, set service interval to maximum :p
15:42:59  <andythenorth> yeah that screenie describes forced servicing :)  Pretty brutally :)
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15:43:43  <andythenorth> so anyway, my aim is to make a nice GS for single player
15:43:48  <andythenorth> we have some good ones for MP
15:43:58  <andythenorth> and I want it to occasionally screw with you :)
15:45:03  <frosch123> http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/combinedserviceandbufferdepot.png <- that's kind of my standard lazy-pbs layout
15:45:13  <frosch123> if i do not want to build anything particular fancy
15:46:07  <frosch123> but well, it also works with exit-presignals at the station, instead of pbs
15:46:17  <andythenorth> why is that tram clipping? :P
15:46:40  <frosch123> where?
15:46:50  <frosch123> oh there
15:48:12  <frosch123> it is on foundations
15:48:30  <frosch123> and the length of the last vehicle part is incorrect
15:48:48  <frosch123> side effect of the length rrefit i guess
15:49:09  <frosch123> the foundation is sorted in front of the vehicle bb, since the vehicle bb is on the tile in front
16:01:46  <andythenorth> so what are nice goals for single player?
16:01:51  <andythenorth> - cargo amounts
16:01:56  <andythenorth> - town growth?
16:01:57  <andythenorth> - money?
16:02:33  <frosch123> transfers
16:02:43  <andythenorth> are they trackable?
16:02:45  <frosch123> non-point-to-point connections
16:03:30  <frosch123> no idea
16:03:54  <andythenorth> "Quackpool wants a cut of the lucrative cargo transfer business.  Transfer 10,000t per year at Quackpool for a reward of [xyz]"
16:04:18  <frosch123> that's weird :p
16:04:31  <andythenorth> weird bad?
16:04:56  <frosch123> well, transporting cargo somehwere, just to transport it back :p
16:05:16  <andythenorth> oic :)
16:05:16  <frosch123> it would be cool if you could count the amount of cargo that is transfered between rv, trains and ships
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16:05:24  <andythenorth> that's what I intended ^
16:05:31  <andythenorth> dunno how to enforce it though
16:06:15  <frosch123> score = "cargo transported on one vehicle type" + 4 * "cargo transported by two vehicle types" + 9 * "cargo transported by 3 vehicle types" + 16 * "cargo transported by 4 vehicle types" ...
16:06:24  <andythenorth> "The Governor of Quackpool is tired of your noisy trains.  You may only use river boats from now on.  You may keep your existing railways."
16:07:23  <andythenorth> ok so for what you describe, something like "intermodal bonus: use 4 transport types"
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16:07:30  <frosch123> nah: as a measurement against terrorirsm the government has the intention to obfuscate cargo flows
16:07:42  <andythenorth> it's more less narrative, more like the rewards in the casual games I've been playing
16:07:46  <frosch123> help them to make it hard to track where cargos comes from and goes to
16:09:42  <andythenorth> dunno if GS can do this?
16:09:54  <andythenorth> would need to track packets somehow?
16:10:02  <frosch123> you can read orders and vehicle loads
16:10:22  <frosch123> well, you will likely only get some approximation
16:10:25  <frosch123> not the exact thing :p
16:10:53  <andythenorth> - average speed per passenger mile between two towns?
16:11:06  <andythenorth> sounds tedious, but would be a nice micro-challenge
16:14:06  <andythenorth> I am thinking stuff more like 'deliver at least 2000t / month to five different ports' or such
16:14:38  <andythenorth> GS only knows about industries via accepted / produced cargos?
16:14:41  <andythenorth> can't go by ID?
16:17:49  <frosch123> yup, no name or anything
16:17:52  <frosch123> only cargo lavels
16:18:05  <frosch123> and primary/secondary, fundable/prospectable
16:18:32  <andythenorth> I could generate a lookup table from FIRS code :P
16:19:27  <frosch123> you can also track the shape of the industry then :p
16:19:54  <andythenorth> oh, so I could go measure individual tiles? :P
16:20:00  <andythenorth> ho ho
16:20:05  <andythenorth> how quaint :)
16:20:34  <frosch123> and very specific to a firs version :)
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16:21:18  <andythenorth> so is there such a thing as a single-sided subsidy?
16:21:27  <andythenorth> i.e. only destination or source is specified
16:21:43  <frosch123> GSCargoMonitor
16:22:02  <andythenorth> I meant existing subsidy machinery
16:22:07  <frosch123> allows tracking of delivery at source or destination
16:22:19  <andythenorth> I was thinking of adjusting rates
16:22:33  <andythenorth> "Quackpool Textile Mill has a big contract, deliver Wool"
16:22:59  <andythenorth> "Bubbleville Mine will pay double for enough supplies to max production"
16:23:53  <frosch123> who cares about money
16:24:01  <frosch123> add score as an alternative to money
16:25:11  <andythenorth> ha ha you gave me an idea
16:25:32  <andythenorth> all these stupid casual games have 'money' and also 'bucks' or 'gems'
16:25:47  <andythenorth> all the good stuff needs bucks or gems :P
16:25:58  <andythenorth> which costs real money on the other fruit store :P
16:26:04  <frosch123> yup, there are always two types of money
16:26:05  <andythenorth> which annoys me
16:26:14  <andythenorth> (the paying)
16:26:15  <frosch123> one easy to get, one hard to get, but also gettable via real money :p
16:26:29  <andythenorth> maybe I introduce one that you get by having fun :P
16:26:39  <andythenorth> can we trade it?
16:26:40  <andythenorth> :P
16:27:02  <frosch123> you could offer that for some fee :p
16:27:15  <andythenorth> donate to ottd
16:27:23  <andythenorth> pay someone to fix the mac port :P
16:28:31  <andythenorth> could the extra currency be used to 'unlock' map sections?
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16:33:58  <andythenorth> does GS have a UI with dialogs?
16:34:00  * andythenorth reads docs
16:35:02  <frosch123> there are questions in pop-up windows, similar to the engine preview
16:35:08  <frosch123> and there  is https://wiki.openttd.org/Story_book
16:37:14  <andythenorth> found the popups
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16:38:05  <andythenorth> presumably, if user went to a story book page, a question dialog could be shown
16:38:35  <frosch123> not currently
16:38:42  <frosch123> zuu is working on interactive story book elements
16:38:49  <andythenorth> doesn't matter, getting ahead of myself :)
16:39:08  <andythenorth> just thinking about the option to have some kind of 'get access to territories' method
16:39:15  <andythenorth> without having to trigger dialog every month :P
16:40:14  <andythenorth> "Where would you like to start your career" is a pretty common mechanic in sims
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16:40:58  <frosch123> headquarters :)
16:42:20  <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> that way the depot also deals as buffer when the production fluctuates and removes unneeeded trains from the network <-- that used to be very broken, as trains were only serviced on entering a depot, not exiting. so when they waited too long, they left with 0% reliability
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16:42:53  <frosch123> "used to be"
16:43:02  <frosch123> i am not playing with ottd 0.4
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16:44:53  <andythenorth> ha that must have been fun to find :)
16:45:13  <andythenorth> frosch123: so plant HQ to get first territory?  Or you think it's just a silly mechanic? o_O
16:45:55  <frosch123> it's common afaik
16:46:08  <frosch123> as in at least two gs use that mechanic
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16:56:25  *** DanMacK [~439e4090@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
16:56:32  <DanMacK> Hey all
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18:08:03  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26171 trunk/src/newgrf_storage.h (2013-12-23 18:07:57 UTC)
18:08:04  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Make TemporaryStorageArray keep track of assigned registers. Also make clearing the array 'cheaper'.
18:08:23  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26172 /trunk/src (newgrf_spritegroup.cpp newgrf_spritegroup.h) (2013-12-23 18:08:16 UTC)
18:08:24  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Make SpriteGroup::Resolve aware of nested calls.
18:08:42  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26173 /trunk/src (newgrf_spritegroup.cpp newgrf_storage.h) (2013-12-23 18:08:36 UTC)
18:08:43  <DorpsGek> -Change: [NewGRF] Reset the temporary storage registers for every sprite resolving.
18:09:09  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26174 /trunk/src (5 files) (2013-12-23 18:09:03 UTC)
18:09:10  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Rename BaseStorageArray to BasePersistentStorageArray
18:09:35  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26175 /trunk/src (9 files in 2 dirs) (2013-12-23 18:09:29 UTC)
18:09:36  <DorpsGek> -Add: Log in desync output when persistent storage is discarded.
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