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Log for #openttd on 8th February 2014:
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00:18:03  <Pikka> ooh
00:18:10  <Pikka> I crashed OpenTTD, haven't done that for a while.
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00:20:47  <Hazzard> ooh fun
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01:52:54  <Pikka> oops, did it again
01:53:00  <Pikka> it's a divide by 0...
01:53:42  <Pikka> spose I should update my nightly just to make sure
01:55:25  <Japa__> Also stop being Brittany.
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04:39:49  <Pikka> it's too warm for this many mathematics, I'm turning the AC on...
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07:21:39  <Pikka> hmm
07:21:51  <Pikka> AIs can't change their company colours? D:
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07:25:14  <slee> ok, time to go attempt a sneak-attack on the wife and fail then cry myself to sleep
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07:26:23  <Pikka> obviously
07:26:30  <Pikka> andythenorth!
07:27:07  <Pikka> why can't AI's change their company colour?
07:27:12  <Pikka> or AIs
07:27:18  <Pikka> whichever you like
07:31:58  <andythenorth> Pikka!
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07:54:08  <Pikka> I'm improving my style, taking repetitive bits from different parts of the code and turning them into a single function
07:54:12  <Pikka> this is where bugs are born
07:54:26  <andythenorth> that is all I do
07:54:31  <andythenorth> otherwise I'd be bored :P
07:54:36  <andythenorth> and I'd have to do drawing
07:56:27  <Pikka> amazingly, I moved some code and it didn't break
07:56:32  <Pikka> I'm always suspicious when that happens
07:57:00  <andythenorth> do you have regression tests? o_O
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08:07:07  <Pikka> I have "restarting the AI and seeing if it crashes"
08:09:07  <andythenorth> I have no regression tests either :)
08:09:21  <andythenorth> but I have some code that whines at me if I make certain silly mistakes
08:10:03  * andythenorth bbl, lego-ish children-ish things to do
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08:18:05  <Elyon> good morning!
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08:37:17  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i noticed this before... planetmaker has this habit of using "feasible" when "possible" would be more appropriate
08:38:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i would use "feasible" in the sense of "could be made possible"
08:38:46  <Eddi|zuHause> just because something is not possible right now doesn't mean it's not feasible
08:41:23  <Elyon> is using variable 7E (procedure call) with variable 7B (pass argument from computational value) feasible, then? :D
08:44:03  <Pikka> Eddi: I, on the other hand, would have used those two words the other way around :)
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08:47:01  <Pikka> I thinik my AI may actually be finished. :o unless someone can point out where I've missed that AIs can change company colours...
08:47:40  <Pikka> also, thinik
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08:49:12  <Elyon> what does it do?
08:49:38  <Elyon> collect meaningful data about its surroundings, then discards this and drives into walls?
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08:49:48  <Pikka> only sometimes
08:49:56  <Elyon> :D
08:53:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: it's possible (:p) that i have a completely wrong understanding of what these words mean
08:54:21  <Elyon> WORDS
08:54:33  <Pikka> I would interpret "possible" as "could/may/will theoretically be done" and "feasable" as "could/may/will actually be done"
08:55:24  <planetmaker> moin
08:55:27  <planetmaker> satisfied, Eddi|zuHause ;)
08:55:31  <Elyon> but something may be possible without being feasible
08:55:38  <Elyon> good morning :)
08:55:39  <Eddi|zuHause> not really. :)
08:56:06  <planetmaker> feasible means 'machbar' and possible means 'möglich'
08:56:27  <Elyon> doable and possible?
08:56:45  <planetmaker> doable is about a synonym for feasible, I think
08:57:00  <planetmaker> possible has a different direction
08:57:05  <Elyon> that's what I think, as well, by my understanding of the words "mach" and "bar" :p
08:57:11  <Eddi|zuHause> if in doubt: everybody else is wrong :p
08:57:21  <Elyon> the danish word is probably "muligt"
08:57:36  <Elyon> (for possible)
08:58:27  <Elyon> planetmaker: I am beginning to understand NFO stations! :D
08:58:34  <planetmaker> good :)
08:59:19  <Elyon> also, this place seems dead for days sometimes ...
08:59:32  <planetmaker> this channel?
08:59:34  <Eddi|zuHause> let's just stick with: "i'm way too theoretically aligned to use the word 'feasible' in any meaningful context"
08:59:35  <Elyon> yeah
09:00:09  <planetmaker> Hardly any day passes with random people like us talking here. More or often less on-topic :P
09:01:06  <Elyon> I guess :)
09:01:21  <planetmaker> but sure enough not every day much happens. People have lives. And different times
09:01:32  <Elyon> quite.
09:02:15  <Elyon> question: is the 7B/7E variable conundrum to avoid branching in newgrfs?
09:02:24  <Elyon> because it would be rather useful!
09:04:23  <Eddi|zuHause> what do these variables do?
09:04:47  <Elyon> 7E is procedure call, 7B reads the parameter of its variable from the accumulator
09:05:29  <Elyon> so doing 7B 7E would go to the procedure as indicated by the accumulator, instead of a hardcoded procedure
09:06:04  <Elyon> but 7B specifically does not support `7B` or `7E`
09:06:16  <Eddi|zuHause> and you can't just use register 0x100 for that?
09:06:26  <Elyon> wait ...
09:08:23  <Elyon> huh? I can't find any documentation on that, all I can find says that 0x100-0x10F is for passing extra data to some variables - not which ones
09:09:38  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, why not write stuff to a register, and call a function that reads this register and branches to the correct function?
09:10:10  <Pikka> that sounds familiar...
09:10:13  <Elyon> how would I branch? Ranges in a standard varaction2?
09:10:49  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
09:11:04  <Elyon> hmm. That would work, I guess.
09:11:17  <Elyon> or; of course it would! Thanks, don't know why I didn't think of that
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09:23:30  <Wolf01> hello
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09:23:37  <Elyon> hi
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09:26:39  <Taede> moin
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12:14:56  <andythenorth> all things are possible
12:14:59  <andythenorth> not all things are feasible
12:15:18  * andythenorth suspects that in fact not all things are possible
12:15:37  <andythenorth> measuring the velocity and position of a particle
12:15:56  <andythenorth> knowing the state of a cat in a box
12:16:42  <Alberth> going faster than the speed of light
12:16:54  <planetmaker> no problem to go faster than light
12:17:05  <andythenorth> already things go faster than light
12:17:05  <MNIM> andythenorth: isn't it the other way round?
12:17:09  <planetmaker> except you cannot do that in vacuum *and* transmit information
12:17:31  <andythenorth> MNIM: ?
12:17:56  <Alberth> impossible things just don't exist :)
12:18:18  <MNIM> you measure the state of the cat, not the particle.
12:18:22  <andythenorth> some possible things also don't exist
12:18:26  <andythenorth> like roadtypes
12:18:33  <MNIM> @.@
12:18:34  <andythenorth> and NewStations
12:18:50  <MNIM> NewStations? since when does that not exist?
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12:20:46  <andythenorth> the voxel tool looks nice
12:20:53  <andythenorth> does it do the right proportions?
12:21:28  <Alberth> doesn't "New" indicate "we hate the existing feature, it should be rebuild from scratch" ?
12:21:40  <Alberth> it looks a lot like pixa
12:21:41  <andythenorth> Alberth: no
12:21:53  <andythenorth> "New" implies it will be discussed but never done
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12:22:11  <andythenorth> we should talke more about OldButLessCrappy
12:22:17  <Japa> What's this voxel tool?
12:23:11  <Alberth> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=69974
12:23:21  <andythenorth> planetmaker: it has a graphical editor in it?  Or everything is typing numbers?
12:23:48  <planetmaker> try the link he provided. Or look at the screen I attached. Graphical
12:24:15  <planetmaker> quite nice tool really
12:24:25  <planetmaker> makes it quick to draw vehicles
12:24:40  <planetmaker> how easy it is to make it appear also really nice... dunno :)
12:24:50  <andythenorth> just time
12:25:00  <andythenorth> tool is irrelevant, except how easy it is to use :D
12:30:00  <andythenorth> it's pretty easy :)
12:30:08  <andythenorth> makes certain assumptions about symetry though
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12:53:00  <frosch123> yay, kdiff3 has a line matching preprocessing command
12:53:20  <planetmaker> kdiff3 is nice, yes :)
12:53:49  <frosch123> can i export the diff view somehow though?
12:55:15  <planetmaker> hm... that I don't know :)
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12:56:07  <planetmaker> merges got much easier since I use kdiff3 as my merge tool, though
12:56:34  <frosch123> well, i am not using it for merging :p
12:56:40  <frosch123> i diffed the english.txt thingie
12:57:01  <planetmaker> ah, that. too many {NBSP} for my liking
12:57:23  <frosch123> yes, i killed those with sed
12:57:31  <frosch123> there eddi is absolutely right
12:57:39  <planetmaker> fully agree
12:57:43  <frosch123> that is a word user change :p
12:58:04  <frosch123> in theory someone can draw all those fancy characters for the sprite font
12:58:11  <frosch123> but the nbsp padding is wrong
12:58:56  <planetmaker> yes. If it's used in another string: then it needs be done there. If it's at the end or beginning: it's window layout
13:02:52  <Japa> https://www.dropbox.com/s/ywelwzc5o9nkwg9/Screenshot%202014-02-08%2018.32.06.png
13:02:59  <Japa> Well, that was relatively easy.
13:03:31  <planetmaker> Japa, with changed size it also works for 4x sprites ,or?
13:04:32  <frosch123> is that feasible?
13:04:49  <frosch123> you need to shade the sides differently anyway alter on
13:05:00  <planetmaker> there are settings for sprite size
13:05:13  <frosch123> so you cannot use it for the final sprite, can you?
13:05:16  <Japa> Yes
13:05:23  <planetmaker> yup
13:05:27  <Japa> frosch123, it shades it.
13:05:57  <planetmaker> I'm actually pondering whether it might live well on a DevZone page
13:06:09  <Japa> It's a pain in the ass on larger sizes, though
13:06:22  <Japa> it becomes really slow, and the drawing limitations become more of a problem
13:06:32  <Japa> needs bigger brushes
13:06:41  <planetmaker> and drag
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13:07:05  <MNIM> question: what makes it better than making a 3d model and rendering that?
13:08:02  <planetmaker> question: what makes 3d modeling and rendering that better than it?
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13:09:10  <frosch123> MNIM: a modeller is for shapes
13:09:16  <frosch123> train shapes are all the same
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13:09:26  <frosch123> this is a texture editor with a default shape
13:09:42  <frosch123> so a modeller is useless, there is no shape to model
13:10:12  <Japa> frosch123, actually, you make the shape too.
13:10:30  <frosch123> it's always a box :)
13:10:39  <Japa> Nope.
13:10:45  <frosch123> hmm, then i should play more
13:10:51  <Japa> there's some slice options above that you can play with.
13:11:19  <Japa> Notice the shape of the roof in my screenshot
13:13:26  <frosch123> hmm, maybe i misunderstood the tool completely last night
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13:22:49  <MNIM> frosch123: well, you could just use a standard model for that, too.
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13:48:37  <frosch123> http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/pixeltool_grey50.png <- so, that's what the build-in shape is
13:48:51  <frosch123> i made all sides 50% grey
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13:53:59  <planetmaker> Zeph said it's 100% javascript. So all the code is in the website you view :)
13:57:46  <Elyon> is there a way for me to check milliseconds per frame (or just fps)? If so, is there a way for me to check what parts of the game took how long to compute?
13:59:09  <planetmaker> 30 msec / tick
13:59:42  <planetmaker> the game won't profit from more fps. And will simply run slower when cpu is at 100%
14:00:15  <Elyon> yes, I am interested in how slow and what's slowing it down ^-^;
14:00:39  <planetmaker> you need to compile the game then yourself
14:00:44  <Alberth> use a profiler
14:00:57  <Elyon> Alberth: hmm
14:00:59  <Elyon> planetmaker: oh?
14:03:55  <Elyon> Alberth: such as?
14:04:09  <frosch123> callgrind
14:05:03  <frosch123> plus kcachekrind for result viewing ofc
14:05:10  <frosch123> *kcachegrind
14:05:31  <frosch123> mind the "call" vs. "cache"
14:05:46  <frosch123> there is also cachegrind, but usually you want callgrind
14:05:56  <frosch123> kcachegrind visualises for both
14:06:40  <Elyon> okay alright, thanks :) On it now
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14:06:52  <frosch123> linux only btw
14:07:13  <frosch123> though i think someone ported it to osx
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14:09:35  <Elyon> no worries, already up and running :)
14:11:48  <frosch123> you will need a debug build of ottd, ideally with optimisation enabled
14:12:02  <frosch123> and you should start ottd with parameter "-v sdl:no_threads"
14:12:09  <frosch123> it's far more useable that way
14:12:30  <frosch123> i.e. "valgrind --tool callgrind -- bin/openttd -v sdl:no_threads"
14:12:35  <fonsinchen> You'll still need a lot of patience, though.
14:12:59  <fonsinchen> There's also gprof
14:13:46  <fonsinchen> It's less accurate but to run it you just have to do "make run-prof"
14:14:13  <fonsinchen> and it executes at near "normal" time.
14:17:19  <Elyon> frosch123, fonsinchen, I see. I think I've already found my bottleneck though - or confirmed it anyway
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14:27:41  <planetmaker> -STR_SCENEDIT_FILE_MENU_QUIT                                     :Exit
14:27:41  <planetmaker> +STR_SCENEDIT_FILE_MENU_QUIT                                     :Quit Open Transport Tycoon <--- aaaaaaaah!
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14:30:09  <Elyon> what?
14:30:22  <Elyon> what happen !!
14:30:33  <Taede> openttd != open transport tycoon deluxe
14:30:39  <Elyon> indeed not
14:30:39  <Taede> openttd == open ttd
14:30:40  <planetmaker> that suggested string change makes my head hurt badly
14:31:10  <Elyon> the ttd is not really an abbreviation (anymore), is it?
14:31:21  <planetmaker> officially never has been
14:31:25  <Elyon> I see
14:31:26  <planetmaker> related to this game
14:31:31  <planetmaker> for copyright reasons
14:31:36  <Elyon> that makes perfect sense
14:31:38  <planetmaker> or trademark. Or whatever reasons
14:31:56  <Elyon> staying safe :D
14:32:25  <Elyon> so what you pasted is a proposed string change?
14:32:39  <planetmaker> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=69914
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14:32:57  <planetmaker> frosch was so kind to actually make it nicely readible
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14:36:13  <planetmaker> I didn't find any change where the removal of the colon is sensible
14:36:30  <Elyon> :/
14:36:50  <Elyon> pity when someone puts in a lot of work for something that doesn't quite work out
14:41:24  <Elyon> on that note: turns out running thousands of advanced varaction2 operations per tile was a bit much
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14:57:56  <frosch123> http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/profiler.png <- hmm, i should revive that at some point :p
14:59:12  <planetmaker> :)
14:59:29  <planetmaker> as normal part of NewGRF debug tools?
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15:17:19  <frosch123> we should turn ottd into a newgrf dev engine
15:17:52  <planetmaker> and add gimp sources
15:18:06  <frosch123> and loffice
15:21:10  * andythenorth has missed something :P
15:21:17  <andythenorth> are we editing vehicles in game now?
15:22:08  <andythenorth> presumably if openttd can parse newgrf, it could dump it back to a file too :P
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15:26:29  <andythenorth> would give new meaning to "don't change newgrfs on a running game" :P
15:27:39  <Elyon> :D
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16:17:14  <frosch123> hmm, it's "5 head of livestock", not "5 heads of livestock" ?
16:18:27  <Elyon> frosch123: http://files.zachanima.net/cats-bacon.png related?
16:18:58  <frosch123> you need more trains
16:19:16  <Elyon> you can't tell how many trains I have~
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16:19:30  <Elyon> although evidently, not enough
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16:19:48  <planetmaker> that's insane, Elyon ;)
16:19:53  <frosch123> i guess V would claim "not enough trains" is a tautology
16:20:06  <Elyon> I messed up somewhere and accidentally enabled all tile subzones as being pigs
16:20:11  <planetmaker> not enough beer surely
16:20:13  <Elyon> haha
16:21:00  <frosch123> maybe the trains can flow through a pile of goods and end up loaded on the other end
16:21:08  <frosch123> s/flow/plow/
16:21:13  <Elyon> that would be neat
16:21:16  <Elyon> loading time: 0
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16:34:34  <Elyon> code generation \o/
16:36:56  <Elyon> how much space is alright to use per repo?
16:37:09  <Elyon> is, say, 10 MB for a repo alright?
16:38:23  <frosch123> all the 32bpp sets are way beyond 1GB
16:39:56  <frosch123> 108M nuts, 71M heqs, 87M fish, 89M firs, 79M ogfx, 1.3G ogfx-trains, 2.9G zbase
16:40:20  <Elyon> so what you're saying is I shouldn't worry about anything less than 50
16:40:22  <Elyon> ?
16:40:32  <Elyon> also woah, 2.9G zbase o_o
16:40:41  <frosch123> i am not sure whether you mean the complete repo, or a single revision
16:41:12  <Alberth> why would you want to store generated code, store the generator instead
16:41:21  <frosch123> but i wouldn't know why space should be an issue
16:41:30  <Elyon> Alberth: it's nondeterministic. But you're right, actually
16:41:45  <frosch123> nondeterministic generation :p
16:41:56  <frosch123> that sounds like i will refuse to debug that :)
16:42:01  <Elyon> haha
16:42:10  <Elyon> it's for generating random-looking tile layouts
16:42:38  <Elyon> Alberth: but I will follow your advice and ignore the generated code
16:44:47  <Elyon> actually no. It's only a few MB. I will strip the file from the repo if it ever becomes a problem, but I don't want to force people to install an interpreter just for running a generator, just to compile the newgrf :)
16:45:29  <Elyon> *or* I could make the generator deterministic
16:48:44  <planetmaker> Elyon, space is not much a problem and you will not be in trouble as long as you don't use it as binary dump :)
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16:51:06  <Elyon> planetmaker: I wasn't planning on doing that, but I've taken measures to remove the generated code anyway :)
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16:54:24  <planetmaker> well. Don't add generated stuff. Add the generator instead :)
16:55:13  <frosch123> if the generation is non-deterministic, he has to add the generated stuff
16:56:38  <planetmaker> generation is non-deterministic here?
16:57:06  <planetmaker> I guess I should have read back completely :)
16:57:14  <Elyon> nah, I'm making it deterministic
16:57:29  <Elyon> might as well
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18:46:49  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26318 /trunk/src/lang (8 files) (2014-02-08 18:46:35 UTC)
18:46:50  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:46:51  <DorpsGek> afrikaans - 1 changes by R2dical
18:46:52  <DorpsGek> catalan - 34 changes by juanjo
18:46:53  <DorpsGek> hebrew - 61 changes by oofnik
18:46:54  <DorpsGek> italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
18:46:55  <DorpsGek> korean - 1 changes by telk5093
18:46:56  <DorpsGek> polish - 1 changes by wojteks86
18:46:57  <DorpsGek> gaelic - 2 changes by GunChleoc
18:46:58  <DorpsGek> swedish - 2 changes by spacejens
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19:28:18  <andythenorth> o/
19:31:54  <Alberth> moin
19:33:54  * andythenorth is very bored of unfinished ships
19:34:16  <andythenorth> if the base graphics were done I could start doing cargo stuff with PIL
19:36:00  <andythenorth> has anyone here tried Squid?
19:36:07  * andythenorth needs opinions
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19:37:00  <Alberth> haven't played with it for a while
19:37:29  <Miauw> Huh
19:37:36  <Miauw> I have a train station and trains sometimes randomly rotate in it
19:37:40  <Miauw> And then they can't find a way to get out
19:38:27  <Miauw> Eck, gotta go
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23:09:49  <Wolf01> 'night all
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